IRC log of swhack on 2002-06-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:07:25 [GabeW]
GabeW (~Gabe@12-236-104-95.client.attbi.com) has joined #swhack
00:41:34 [walloper]
<lilo> Glitch with European hubbing, relatively low-usercount nodes affected.
00:42:05 [sbp]
when does a glitch become a problem?
00:42:40 [AaronSw]
when lilo can't fix it
00:42:52 [sbp]
heh
00:42:53 [walloper]
<lilo> This is probably a good time to mention that we could use a couple of new European hubs. Probably 35-40K bits per second average. Please take a look at http://openprojects.net/sponsoring_servers.shtml if you think you might be able to help. Thanks.
00:50:33 [AaronSw]
wmf is breaking new ground in the field of audioblogging
00:51:00 [wmf]
what you say?
00:51:28 [AaronSw]
with HTP radio... according to SN audioblogging is THE NEXT BIG THING OF THE REPUBLIC.
00:52:01 [wmf]
er, but I abandoned that after a few hours
00:52:15 [AaronSw]
eh, you're still a pioneer
00:52:28 [wmf]
yeah, that's the tickt
00:52:39 [wmf]
"I forgot more about audioblogging than you ever knew!"
00:52:55 [AaronSw]
"in my day we had to audioblog with tin cans. And string!"
00:54:29 [wmf]
will audioblogging kill the Radio star?
00:54:41 [AaronSw]
Ooh, these Ink gestures are cool.
00:54:54 [wmf]
or will that have to wait for videoblogging?
00:55:02 [AaronSw]
videoblogging
00:55:08 [AaronSw]
I'm a videoblogging pioneer.
00:55:15 [bitsko]
are Ink gestures "live" all the time, or do you have to be in a mode?
00:55:15 [wmf]
yep, I was about to say that
00:55:39 [AaronSw]
bitsko, looks like you can turn it on so they'll work in any cocoa textbox
00:55:41 [wmf]
but I think we have to remember the ultimate pioneers, Wayne and Garth
00:56:04 [AaronSw]
oh?
00:56:22 [bitsko]
* bitsko is just happy OSX textboxes support Emacs keybindings -- the sleeper of MOSX features
00:56:27 [AaronSw]
:-)
00:56:43 [AaronSw]
wow, sherlock3 is more of a watson ripoff than i thought
00:57:47 [bitsko]
GTK also supports Emacs keybindings, until stupid apps reassign basic keys (like ^B from cursor-back to bold, duh)
00:58:26 [wmf]
* wmf reassign's all of bitsko's keybindings to Mac ones
00:58:36 [AaronSw]
I'd prefer that Emacs switched to OS X keybindings
00:58:50 [wmf]
mwahaha! take that, emacs!
00:59:31 [wmf]
<SJobs> all your keybinding are belong to the human interface guidelines
00:59:37 [wmf]
<RMS> noooooo...
01:00:00 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw grabs emacs-on-aqua
01:03:03 [AaronSw]
ooh: http://www.gnufoo.org/macosx/
01:03:13 [AaronSw]
bitsko, "a DefaultKeyBinding.dict file with many more emacs-ish features"
01:03:57 [AaronSw]
ha! talking cat
01:04:06 [wmf]
geez, these Sun users
01:06:57 [AaronSw]
can you turn the backslashes off in emacs?
01:08:36 [bitsko]
on line-wrap?
01:08:44 [AaronSw]
yeah
01:08:56 [bitsko]
probably, why?
01:09:07 [AaronSw]
because it makes it a pain to copy and paste
01:09:20 [AaronSw]
i have to trim out all these newlines and backslashes
01:09:20 [bitsko]
ah, from text windows.
01:09:34 [AaronSw]
right
01:10:41 [bitsko]
hehe, re the control key, I use a Happy Hacker keyboard ;)
01:11:05 [AaronSw]
heh
01:16:13 [bitsko]
nope, don't see any variables for the line-wrap character. you can have it not line wrap at all, but then it truncates, so you wouldn't get anything
01:17:31 [bitsko]
a native Emacs would support the clipboard. does X-Windows support converting from Unix to Aqua clipboard?
01:19:13 [AaronSw]
hm, not sure.
01:19:18 [AaronSw]
I mostly use emacs over SSH.
01:19:29 [AaronSw]
native emacs isn't really an option then, right?
01:20:09 [bitsko]
I think there's remote-file support for SSH these days
01:20:19 [AaronSw]
hm?
01:21:07 [bitsko]
emacs' find-file can use hooks to magically get files from places other than the file system, like ftp (ange-ftp) and WebDAV. I think it has ssh support these days
01:21:18 [AaronSw]
ah
01:21:36 [GabeW]
yah mean scp support?
01:21:42 [bitsko]
yes
01:22:12 [AaronSw]
this remote X thing seems cool
01:22:19 [bitsko]
I hear emacs wiki-mode is really nice that way.
01:22:32 [AaronSw]
that sounds droolworthy
01:22:34 [bitsko]
remote X?
01:23:21 [AaronSw]
yeah... http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/mini/Remote-X-Apps.html
01:24:35 [AaronSw]
Hm. What would be really cool is to have some command that sent the file to a server running on my machine which opened the file up in pepper and then sent the file back to the original machine
01:24:39 [AaronSw]
that actually sounds doable.
01:25:32 [bitsko]
ooohh, I thought you meant something MOSX. X, of course, could remote from day one
01:25:56 [AaronSw]
well, there are these rumors about nextstep remoting in mosx, but no code i've seen
01:26:59 [bitsko]
nextstep remoting worked the same way as it does in X, but it worked at the PostScript level. when MOSX switched to PDF, it broked. their new remote adminstration stuff has screen forwarding
01:29:18 [wmf]
yeah, NXHosting isn't possible in OS X
01:30:07 [wmf]
I think a bitmap-based approach should be possible, but Apple doesn't seem interested
01:31:40 [bitsko]
how does their new remote admin stuff work?
01:32:02 [wmf]
it's whole-screen based, so you can't do remote apps with it
01:32:04 [bitsko]
the classroom one, not necessarily the xServe one
01:32:11 [bitsko]
ah
01:32:41 [bitsko]
sad
01:32:43 [wmf]
and you can't even have multiple sessions a la windows terminal server
01:34:43 [wmf]
maybe Apple's worried that having remote display would eat into Mac sales
01:36:55 [bitsko]
dunno how, it's not like they don't push the CPU-heavy apps that won't let one use thin-clients ;)
01:37:20 [bitsko]
no way someone's using iPhoto on a Linux box remoted from the MOSX home-server :)
01:45:06 [wmf]
the Sun Ray proved that that would probably work OK, actually
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04:29:59 [AaronSw]
.time pst
04:36:30 [Ash]
la lala lal alal
04:37:25 [AaronSw]
[anvil falls on ash's head]
04:37:31 [Ash]
heh
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05:41:06 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw -> sleep
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09:06:01 [sbp]
* sbp waves
09:07:35 [quasi]
* quasi waves back
09:08:13 [sbp]
wow, what kinda time zone are *you* on? :-)
09:09:02 [quasi]
CEST
09:09:12 [quasi]
.time CEST
09:09:48 [sbp]
+2?
09:10:01 [sbp]
almost lunchtime for you, anyhow
09:10:08 [sbp]
* sbp is still in the brunch period
09:10:58 [quasi]
yeah +2 because of summertime
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12:02:35 [AaronSw]
I wonder if I should sleep.
12:16:22 [AaronSw]
Jon Udell on Groove: "This is a little like parties at my house. We always try to get people to move into the living room (aka, the Discussion tool). But they keep on congregating in the kitchen (Chat tool). When we moved to a new house that is bigger, but with a smaller kitchen, I thought it would solve the problem. But nope. Everybody still piles into the kitchen :-)"
12:34:35 [pixel]
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13:34:59 [Morbus]
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13:35:34 [AaronSw]
http://www.apple.com/switch/
13:36:04 [pixel]
trying to convince me?
13:36:38 [pixel]
If I had the money, I would have one right now =)
13:36:53 [Morbus]
heh, heh,.
13:42:32 [bitsko]
* bitsko <sigh> K-Meleon doesn't remember visited links :(
13:45:00 [Morbus]
AaronSw, do you know anyone named Tommy Williams?
13:45:15 [AaronSw]
don't think so
13:45:21 [Morbus]
ah. ok.
13:45:31 [Morbus]
he mentioned you on his blog, i think.
13:45:33 [Morbus]
lemme find it.
13:45:56 [Morbus]
ampheta user, etc.
13:46:05 [Morbus]
http://www.sapid.com/tww/
13:46:40 [Morbus]
uh, i thought he mentioned you
13:47:26 [Morbus]
nope. nevermind.
13:47:29 [Morbus]
guess i was wrong.
13:51:55 [redmonk]
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13:52:20 [redmonk]
*SWACK*
13:52:22 [redmonk]
* redmonk appears
13:52:25 [Morbus]
hey monk.
13:52:34 [redmonk]
hiya
13:52:36 [bitsko]
so, RSS seemed to lurch forward a bit there, but have we actually got anywhere yet?
13:52:50 [Morbus]
with the testcases?
13:58:00 [bitsko]
that too ;)
14:01:49 [Morbus]
bitsko: are you interested in supporting all the published modules for rss 1.0 in AmphetaDesk?
14:03:03 [bitsko]
in general, yes. what do you mean by "support"?
14:03:28 [Morbus]
be able to read/display the elements used within the module in the AmphetaDesk template.
14:03:38 [Morbus]
at this point, i'd only be looking for read/display not act/on/them.
14:03:45 [bitsko]
* bitsko is a bit distraught over the "nobody uses RSS modules because we don't see any showing up at Syndic8"
14:03:52 [Morbus]
heh, heh.
14:03:58 [Morbus]
well, you know, that means that rss 1.0 sucks, you know.
14:04:16 [Morbus]
if i can get all 17 modules supported in ampheta, maybe people will use 'em ;)
14:04:24 [redmonk]
lol
14:04:51 [AaronSw]
Yeah, cuz we all know that if no one uses the modules thanrss must suck
14:05:08 [Morbus]
i just said that :)
14:05:16 [bitsko]
is Ampheta now XSLT based, or was that something else you guys were working on?
14:05:20 [Ash-w]
today sucks ass
14:05:21 [Ash-w]
rawr!
14:05:27 [Ash-w]
* Ash-w kill kill kill
14:05:27 [Morbus]
nah, that was something that deus_ex was thinking about.
14:05:37 [Morbus]
the templates in ampheta are perl.
14:05:45 [Morbus]
so you could piggy back an XSLT reader on top of them.
14:05:46 [bitsko]
ah
14:05:52 [pixel]
I actualyl started working on it a few weeks ago also, unbeknownst to anyone =)
14:05:54 [Ash-w]
ampheta is written in COBOL
14:05:56 [Morbus]
but the shipped templates are just straight Text::Template perl.
14:06:11 [Ash-w]
GNU/COBOL
14:06:12 [Morbus]
pixel, don't hide secrets from me you bitch <G>
14:06:17 [pixel]
hehe.
14:06:45 [Morbus]
bitsko: the main problem with the RSS 1.0 modules i've seen so far is the xml::simple reader i'm using in the back.
14:06:55 [Morbus]
i'm using just a straight XMLin for all rss/scriptingNews.
14:06:57 [redmonk]
* redmonk is still getting used to his new glasses
14:07:02 [pixel]
I was goign to convert the layout of my website directly into ampheta - but my website is run off XSL, so I thought it'd be cool if I could get ampheta to directly use it. The only problem is taht the XSL support in perl is fairly lacking in features.
14:07:05 [Morbus]
and as such, its treebased, so mod_content creates a huUuge branch to try nd follow.
14:07:46 [Morbus]
i haven't checked out the other modules, but i fear i'll run into the same sort of things.
14:08:01 [bitsko]
right, you might need a tree module that can better handle the RDFness. there's an NS-enabled XML::Simple, I think, but there may be something easier too.
14:08:12 [bitsko]
I'm late for a staff meeting, bbl
14:08:27 [redmonk]
lol @ " there's an NS-enabled *XML::Simple*, I think, but there may be something easier too."
14:08:30 [Morbus]
bitsko: i think NS XML::Simple requires XML::SAX in the backend, not XML::Parser
14:08:38 [bitsko]
have Aaron describe the "Orchard Way" :)
14:08:48 [Morbus]
does orchard run on classic mac?
14:08:49 [Morbus]
;)
14:09:02 [pixel]
augh.
14:09:25 [Morbus]
pixel: until i make a decision either way, it stills going to be LCD in all my thoughts.
14:09:34 [pixel]
LCD?
14:09:41 [pixel]
oh.
14:09:43 [Morbus]
lowest common denonmin..
14:09:45 [pixel]
lowest common.
14:09:47 [pixel]
:)
14:09:59 [pixel]
Can we get ampheta to run on my ZX81?
14:10:11 [Morbus]
sigh. <G>
14:10:13 [pixel]
it has a 110 baud modem, and a cassette drive.
14:10:27 [pixel]
I used to have a scaled down version of perl that ran on it.
14:10:39 [pixel]
hehe
14:11:01 [redmonk]
scaled-down, i.e., no regex ;)
14:11:09 [Morbus]
heh.
14:11:15 [Morbus]
did you see the new apocalpse?
14:11:19 [Morbus]
something like 23 pages on regexps.
14:11:22 [pixel]
no regex, and you couldn't load modules =)
14:11:37 [Morbus]
http://www.pricelessware.org/2002/pricelesswaredesktop.htm#news
14:11:38 [Morbus]
oOooh.
14:11:47 [Morbus]
ampheta won an award.
14:11:55 [pixel]
cooool
14:19:39 [AaronSw]
AaronSw has changed the topic to: THE INTERROTRON IS WATCHING
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14:44:57 [AaronSw]
If you put tomfoolery into a computer, nothing comes out but tomfoolery.
14:44:57 [AaronSw]
But this tomfoolery, having passed through a very expensive machine,
14:44:57 [AaronSw]
is somehow enobled and no-one dare criticise it.
14:44:57 [AaronSw]
-- Pierre Gallois
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14:51:17 [Ash-w]
Ash-w has changed the topic to: AMPHETA WINS TEH LAM3R S0f+W3AR AW4RD fR0m g0aTp0rns3x.com1!1!@
14:59:20 [Ash-w]
@ http://www.brunching.com/features/weblogfaqk.html
15:00:03 [chumpy]
A: http://www.brunching.com/features/weblogfaqk.html from Ash-w
15:00:19 [Ash-w]
Will weblogs eventually replace traditional journalism, causing all current bastions of establishment reporting and punditry to run, dog-like and cowering, back to the ink-stained pits from which they were spawned?
15:00:19 [Ash-w]
Uh. Um. Hey, look! It's a naked guy painted up like Spider-Man!
15:01:06 [deus_x]
Got a URL?
15:01:44 [pixel]
heheh
15:01:55 [deus_x]
:)
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topic is: AMPHETA WINS TEH LAM3R S0f+W3AR AW4RD fR0m g0aTp0rns3x.com1!1!@
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Users on #swhack: logster deus_x deltab Acapnotic
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16:06:15 [pixel]
all alone, holding my own.
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16:09:29 [lilo]
[GlobalNotice] Hi all. We are slowly coming back from a fairly serious and novel difficulty with klines. We have a circumvention and an approach for the time being. Apologies for the inconvenience, and we continue to come back up.
16:10:00 [pixel]
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16:10:12 [AaronSw]
wow
16:10:18 [AaronSw]
someone KLINE * again?
16:11:09 [Ash-w]
Ash-w has changed the topic to: <lilo> Oops.. did I k-line *!*@* ?
16:11:25 [Ash-w]
ehehe
16:13:21 [bitsko]
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16:13:37 [bitsko]
wow, the netsplit musta got most everybody
16:14:04 [AaronSw]
AaronSw has changed the topic to: lost in space
16:14:21 [AaronSw]
That was no netsplit.
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16:14:30 [bitsko]
what was it?
16:14:37 [AaronSw]
AaronSw has changed the topic to: <lilo> Hi all. We are slowly coming back from a fairly serious and novel difficulty with klines. We have a circumvention and an approach for the time being. Apologies for the inconvenience, and we continue to come back up.
16:14:50 [pixel]
hehe
16:14:50 [bitsko]
ah
16:15:06 [AaronSw]
<Notice> PING chumpy: 21 seconds
16:15:17 [bitsko]
AaronSw: did you do anything with the Orchard/Perl stuff, or just Py?
16:15:25 [AaronSw]
just py
16:15:37 [bitsko]
* bitsko ouch! quit that!
16:15:46 [AaronSw]
heh
16:16:12 [Morbus]
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16:16:22 [AaronSw]
I wonder if the "solution" was to take down services
16:16:40 [bitsko]
Morbus: the Orchard/Perl stuff is SAX-based, but it's easy to use with just XML::Parser
16:17:00 [bitsko]
no other SAX modules required
16:17:08 [Morbus]
jeez.
16:17:10 [Morbus]
i had a lot of problems getting in today.
16:17:14 [Morbus]
bitsko: how easy? i thought it was a C/XS library, in which case, it needs to be ported to all the OSes I use.
16:17:23 [bitsko]
pure Perl.
16:17:29 [AaronSw]
Morbus, you and everyone else. the network was screwed
16:17:55 [bitsko]
even the most part of SAX modules are pure Perl
16:18:04 [Ash-w]
Ash-w has changed the topic to: <lilo> Hi all. We are slowly coming back from a fairly serious and novel difficulty with klines. We have a circumvention and an approach for the time being. Apologies for the incompetence, and we continue to come back up.
16:18:20 [Ash-w]
Ash-w has changed the topic to: <lilo> Hi all. We are slowly coming back from a fairly serious and novel difficulty with klines. We have a circumvention and an approach for the time being. Apologies for the incompetence, and we continue to come back up. || http://lilofree.net/
16:18:25 [Seth]
Seth (~seth@12-230-243-179.client.attbi.com) has joined #swhack
16:18:40 [bitsko]
the base SAX modules and the XML::Parser-based SAX parser are pure-Perl. but creating a minimal SAX-like parser over XML::Parser for use with Orchard is very tiny
16:18:43 [AaronSw]
AaronSw has changed the topic to: <Ash> If this were my IRC network, we'd have 100% downtime!
16:19:42 [Morbus]
bitsko: my problem is I know nothing about SAX. i worry about my incompetance in trying to bring anything over to SAX parsing.
16:19:58 [Morbus]
besides XML::Simple (which supposedly can use XML::SAX?), I use XML::Parser to do OPML parsing.
16:19:58 [bitsko]
I'm trying to see in Orchard's RDF::Orchard if it really does what it's supposed to be doing or if it was just an example
16:20:33 [bitsko]
well, SAX is far simpler than XML::Parser, if that helps any ;)
16:20:46 [Morbus]
i also heard something recently that it "supports" various versions of RSS, so it's not going to give me as clear/generic an interface as an XML::Simple
16:20:58 [Morbus]
since I'm finagled into it's definition of "support".
16:21:04 [Morbus]
but tell me more ;)
16:21:20 [bitsko]
what support various versions of RSS?
16:21:34 [bitsko]
XML::Simple?
16:21:39 [Morbus]
i dunno. i thought i just heard something about Orchard and Peerkat.
16:21:56 [Morbus]
and how Peerkat didnd't support non 1.0 feeds, but Orchard now does, so it should be possible in Peerkat.
16:22:00 [Morbus]
no, not XML::Simple.
16:22:50 [lilo]
[GlobalNotice] Hi all. Reannouncement. We experienced a problem with the UNKLINE code and we have a workaround. We're slowly coming back up. Apologies for the inconvenience and I think we can avoid a repetition.
16:23:50 [Morbus]
am I way off?
16:24:00 [bitsko]
Orchard will give as clear/generic an interface as XML::Simple, it's based on the same principle. Orchard doesn't inherently have support for non-RDF format, tho
16:24:07 [bitsko]
s/inherently/currently/
16:24:40 [Morbus]
ah.
16:24:51 [AaronSw]
Morbus, that peerkat stuff is only for the py version
16:25:16 [bitsko]
http://orchard.sourceforge.net/doc/rdftest.pl is what Orchard looks like compared to XML::Simple
16:25:58 [bitsko]
iirc, the biggest difference from XML::Simple would be the support for NS
16:26:10 [Morbus]
looks pretty similar.
16:26:33 [bitsko]
in Orchard, you create a namespace object ($RSS) and then use $RSS->title as hash keys
16:26:51 [Morbus]
and how well can I mess with the strucutre of that object?
16:26:59 [Morbus]
for instance, in the alpha AmphetaDesk,
16:27:00 [bitsko]
fully
16:27:14 [Morbus]
I parse all versions of RSS and scriptingNews, but by the time the object gets to the template, its all the same structure.
16:27:20 [Morbus]
so people don't have to worry about the version...
16:27:21 [bitsko]
it fully supports Perl hash access
16:27:26 [Morbus]
* Morbus nods.
16:27:41 [Morbus]
ok, so Orchard requires XML::SAX?
16:27:45 [Morbus]
or XML::Parser?
16:27:48 [bitsko]
yes, that's what I meant about the non-RDF parsers
16:27:50 [Morbus]
or neither?
16:28:00 [Ash-w]
lol
16:28:01 [sbp]
* sbp waves
16:28:06 [Ash-w]
great topic AaronSw
16:28:13 [bitsko]
it can work solely on XML::Parser with it's own XML::Parser->SAX module
16:28:15 [AaronSw]
hee
16:28:21 [Ash-w]
Ash-w has changed the topic to: <Morbus> If this were my IRC network, we'd have 100% porntime!
16:28:27 [AaronSw]
lol
16:28:41 [Morbus]
bitsko: well, i'm just thinking, if I need XML::SAX, then XML::Simple supports NS with SAX, so I wouldn't need Orchard, per se.
16:28:52 [Morbus]
mmMm. porn!
16:28:53 [bitsko]
Orchard does not require XML::SAX
16:28:55 [AaronSw]
AaronSw has changed the topic to: <sbp> If this were my IRC network, we'd time 100% have good yes 188mj ahahdj
16:29:15 [Morbus]
so it just hooks into XML::Parser, with a SAX module?
16:29:22 [Morbus]
a SAX frontend, rather?
16:29:22 [sbp]
?
16:29:39 [sbp]
at least Ash didn't have to explain his topic :-)
16:29:58 [bitsko]
ah, well, I would say that of XML::Simple supports NS in a way you like, merely by having to go with XML::SAX too, you might want to go that way because I couldn't guarantee much support-time for Orchard right now
16:30:13 [Morbus]
mmhmm/
16:30:31 [AaronSw]
AaronSw has changed the topic to: <sbp> If this were my IRC network, we'd time 100% schkurdle
16:30:55 [sbp]
If this were my IRC network, we'd time 100% of the new flurking grenkingshminder and the floop skipp widdly doo!
16:31:04 [AaronSw]
AaronSw has changed the topic to: <sbp> If this were my IRC network, we'd time 100% of the new flurking grenkingshminder and the floop skipp widdly doo!
16:31:11 [AaronSw]
I tried...
16:31:25 [sbp]
:-)
16:31:40 [GabeW]
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16:31:47 [bitsko]
http://orchard.sourceforge.net/doc/XMLParser.pm is Orchard's SAX shim
16:32:09 [bitsko]
that's the one that hooks into XML::Parser to give SAX output to Orchard.
16:32:32 [Morbus]
the SAXDriver stuff comes with Orchard?
16:32:35 [Morbus]
how big is Orchard, btw?
16:32:47 [bitsko]
note that that shim predates the final Perl SAX2 spec, so would need a little minor changes
16:34:19 [bitsko]
300 lines, not including something to read RSS 0.9x/OPML like XML::Simple does (maybe another 100-150 lines?)
16:34:58 [Morbus]
hmm? what do you mean "not including"? XML::Simple doesn't "read" that stuff. I just XMLin, and get a data structure, then I parse throught that.
16:35:18 [bitsko]
if I were doing it the "Orchard Way", I'd have the RSS 0.9x/OPML parser do an on-the-fly conversion to their namespaced equivalents, so the "native" mode of Orchard would be "rich"
16:35:21 [Morbus]
and then, for the super large files (like a 1 meg list), I use XML::Parser to get a tree based only on the data I need.
16:35:22 [AaronSw]
.google vorpal etymology
16:36:03 [Morbus]
bitsko: mmhmm. well, the channel parsing of AmphetaDesk is all confined to one routine, so if you wanted to make an Orchard port and show me, you could ;)
16:36:12 [bitsko]
heh
16:37:05 [sbp]
<xena> vorpal etymology: http://blogspace.com/swhack/chatlogs/2001-12-31.txt
16:37:30 [bitsko]
correct, re. XMLin. Orchard's 'load()' does the same as XMLin, you get a data structure as the return value
16:37:39 [lilo]
[GlobalNotice] Hi all. We'll attempt to reintroduce services in a moment. However, at the moment, we only have access to a very old database. Please bear with us and check with us if you have problems. Thanks.
16:38:46 [lilo]
[GlobalNotice] The current database is as of 7 May, so it's a bit over a month old.
16:39:28 [sbp]
<NickServ> This nickname is owned by someone else
16:39:32 [sbp]
<sbp> it's *so* not
16:39:44 [AaronSw]
Are you arguing with nickserv?
16:40:10 [sbp]
yes
16:41:02 [bitsko]
ah, Orchard's support of mixed content (mod_content or rdfs:parseType="Literal") is another 300 lines :-/
16:41:26 [Acapnotic]
I agree that "this nickname is owned by someone else" is a wholly terrible phrasing.
16:42:29 [bitsko]
when Orchard encounters rdfs:parseType="Literal", it stores a DOM at that location in the data structure
16:42:59 [bitsko]
could have it just store the plain XML, too
16:43:49 [bitsko]
modding XML::Simple to do the same would probably be easy as well
16:48:01 [AaronSw]
ooh: http://diveintomark.org/archives/2002/06/10.html#day_1_jackie
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16:51:04 [Morbus]
bitsko: i've got mod_content in CDATA in one line ;)
16:51:56 [AaronSw]
That's Math-A-Mat-ics
16:51:58 [bitsko]
* bitsko wonders the code behind that statement ;)
16:52:00 [Morbus]
[13:53] <Morbus> anyone know steve jenson's email?
16:52:01 [Morbus]
[13:53] <Morbus> i gotta report a blogger pro rss gen bug
16:52:23 [lilo]
[GlobalNotice] Hi all. Recapping for those who have just returned, we experienced a severe difficulty with the UNKLINE function earlier this afternoon, which necessitated a complete restart of the network. We have a circumvention and think the problem will not recur. Thanks.
16:52:30 [Morbus]
bitsko: welp, for CDATA, its just a matter of hunting down the tree and spitting it out.
16:52:33 [AaronSw]
[off] mailto:stevej@pobox.com
16:52:39 [Seth]
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16:52:49 [Morbus]
i'm thinking of writing a "fold" routine that would take a tree and fold it down to one level (like mixed content in mod_content)
16:52:53 [Morbus]
[off] thanks.
16:53:50 [bitsko]
you mean in parsing or writing?
16:54:44 [Morbus]
parsing.
16:54:48 [Morbus]
ampheta doesn't write anytning.
16:54:58 [bitsko]
I'm thinking that partly because XML::Simple doesn't grok CDATA, and actual use of '<![CDATA[...]]>' is optional
16:55:22 [bitsko]
erp, XML::Simple doesn't grok mixed content. it lets the parser hide CDATA
16:55:41 [Morbus]
yeah, that's been one thing that has annoyed me.
16:56:00 [Morbus]
in an earlier version, I was checking title and desc for the word HASH(.*) and then not showing it (which would assume mixed content)
16:56:26 [Morbus]
but if the way the data structure handles mixed content (via arrrays, i'm hoping), I should be able to fold the entire array into a string.
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17:00:09 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw -> pool
17:00:22 [bitsko]
I was thinking more of modding XML::Simple to recognize the rdfs:parseType="Literal", and then purposely getting the right XML out of it as a string. I think the way XML::Simple is currently wired, you can't trust it to parse mixed content in any reasonable way
17:01:11 [Morbus]
well, that's kinda ooky though - tweaking XML::Simple to support just that
17:01:16 [bitsko]
for special elements (or maybe just as a rule), the same could be done for other elements
17:01:27 [Morbus]
(although, it'd be easy in Ampheta, since we use a local copy of XML::Simple, not the one stored in PERLLIB)/
17:01:31 [bitsko]
I think it'd be a welcomed feature, for that purpose
17:01:51 [bitsko]
right now Grant just punts on mixed content
17:02:23 [Morbus]
punts?
17:02:55 [bitsko]
doesn't support in any way. so adding support in some useful way would likely make it into the module
17:03:05 [Morbus]
ah. i think it tries to read it in.
17:03:16 [Morbus]
becuase when i was testing aaron's mod_content feed, he used the mixed before the CDATA.
17:03:32 [Morbus]
and ::Simple parsed it, I saw how hellish it would be, and Aaron changed it to CDATA.
17:04:18 [bitsko]
Simple does try to parse it, but it gets confused on it
17:04:43 [bitsko]
ie. it tries to parse it by its rules, but the mixed content is nothing like it expects
17:04:48 [Morbus]
right.
17:04:59 [Morbus]
xhtml probably would be fine, but not bad HTMl.
17:06:37 [bitsko]
CDATA or entity-encoded HTML wouldn't be a problem, because Simple will just see it as a string and store it. if that's what Aaron did for mod_content, that would make sense. but in general, I don't think anyone really wants encoded HTML but would rather have parsable XML/XHTML
17:06:37 [AaronSw]
argh. torture! torture!
17:07:01 [justme]
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17:07:10 [Morbus]
yeah, that's what he did.
17:08:00 [bitsko]
aside: this blog appears to have the "there should be a QA department" view of quality: http://radio.weblogs.com/0100102/
17:08:09 [Morbus]
if you ask kearney, that's him.
17:08:24 [Morbus]
er, i'm sorry "syndic8".
17:08:27 [bitsko]
where as I have the "quality happens before you write the first line of code" view of quality
17:08:38 [Morbus]
bitsko: i try to have that view as well.
17:09:12 [redmonk]
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17:11:16 [bitsko]
so, on the mod to read XML/XHTML, I was thinking of the non-encoded or Literal variety
17:18:58 [bitsko]
you said you XMLin the source, and then convert to an internal data structure that's common for all RSS and OPML, correct?
17:19:53 [Morbus]
AaronSw, bitsko: http://www.decafbad.com/mt-images/amphy-outline-skin.jpg
17:19:54 [Morbus]
whoo.
17:20:06 [AaronSw]
ooh
17:21:19 [Morbus]
thats a deus hack, with outlines, etc.
17:21:23 [Morbus]
more on his main page.
17:24:00 [justme]
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17:24:14 [bitsko]
does Mono really compile C# files to Foo.exe? *.exe*?
17:24:27 [GabeW]
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17:25:51 [GabeW]
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17:37:22 [bitsko]
that amphy-outline is using JS, correct?
17:37:44 [Morbus]
bitsko: http://www.decafbad.com/news_archives/000187.phtml#000187
17:37:55 [Morbus]
long story short, yes/.
17:38:04 [Morbus]
but ask deus_x, he's the one who made it ;)
17:39:09 [jillium]
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17:43:40 [AaronSw]
gotta run
17:47:52 [jillium]
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17:49:29 [bitsko]
* bitsko doesn't even know what Groove is...
17:51:06 [bitsko]
if http://radio.weblogs.com/0107414/opml/radiointegration.html is any example, I can say outlines don't have anything on a wiki...
17:56:07 [bitsko]
hmm, if that conversation blew out at 36 people, it definitely doesn't scale.
18:09:26 [bitsko]
so, what's worse than a discussion forum attached to a blog? those little "comment windows". you can just *hear* the <whoosh> as information is sucked into the black hole of lost information
18:11:30 [redmonk]
bitsko: why the dis on DG's?
18:11:35 [redmonk]
just curious
18:13:05 [bitsko]
information loss. some structures are better for maintaining/archiving information. blogs tend to have a rather low archive value, as do discussion forums. those little comment windows, on the other hand, seem to have near-zero archive value.
18:13:32 [redmonk]
how is a DG bad for archiving information?
18:15:19 [bitsko]
the biggest reason is that they're not authoritive-in-context, they're just very tiny threads on a subject. they get lost in, say, google. topical mailing lists have far better archive value, for example (as do newsgroups)
18:15:44 [bitsko]
DGs and most blogs. there are topical blogs that are authoritive-in-context
18:16:16 [bitsko]
and some of this backlinking stuff can create context, but I don't think that's really the drive behind it
18:17:11 [redmonk]
hm.
18:17:52 [quasi]
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18:18:29 [redmonk]
i understand the point, more or less. I think it depends largely on the blog
18:18:38 [bitsko]
I don't know if anybody else sees the same thing, or even agrees it's an issue
18:18:56 [redmonk]
I like having a DG on my blog, b/c the DG is tied to a mailing list
18:19:04 [bitsko]
or maybe that that's not the purpose of blogs+their DGs
18:19:12 [redmonk]
I get good communication from people who read the emails
18:19:21 [redmonk]
again, i tink it depends on the blog
18:20:53 [walloper]
<lilo> This is a WALLOPS message for the Open Projects Network. These messages contain non-critical comments and announcements and detailed server admin information. To turn them off, turn off user mode 'w'. On most clients: '/mode <yournick> -w'. Thanks.
18:21:47 [bitsko]
if it's just living-room conversation, it's no big deal. I'm thinking more of the SOAPvREST or Groove stuff I've just been reading. in two weeks, all the comments will have effectively fallen off the face of the earth.
18:33:15 [bitsko]
when I think of an "authoritive" mailing list or forum, I usually think of threads of conversation where you can point to times and say, "we discussed this there", etc.
18:33:40 [bitsko]
something similar in blogspace would have to be distributed, some kind of aggregated graph structure
18:37:44 [bitsko]
so is it just me? :)
18:44:54 [pixel]
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19:00:42 [walloper]
<lilo> Hi all. In a few minutes, I'm going to be discussing my personal situation and how it affects the network, in #lilo . If you want to stop in, please do. Thanks.
19:00:58 [walloper]
<lilo> (I may repeat this via /notice, depending on turnout.)
19:04:29 [Ash-w]
morbus.. lol
19:04:30 [Ash-w]
i'm dying
19:04:31 [Ash-w]
haahaha
19:04:57 [Ash-w]
Ash-w has changed the topic to: <Morbus> i'm numbah one lilo fan. <Morbus> you guys all poser, yes.
19:05:49 [Morbus]
heheh.
19:05:57 [Ash-w]
ehehe
19:08:29 [Morbus]
[16:09] <Morbus> LILO: ARE YUO SEARHCIN G FROR YOUR TREEE FILEZ?!@
19:08:40 [Morbus]
[16:09] <lilo> erm Morbus 8)
19:08:44 [Morbus]
[16:09] * WebDragon *eyerolls at Morbus* :)
19:09:04 [Ash-w]
ahahaha
19:11:45 [Morbus]
lilo is killing the network!
19:11:47 [Morbus]
pass it on.
19:12:00 [bitsko]
hehe
19:12:09 [Morbus]
:)
19:12:28 [Ash-w]
LOL
19:13:06 [Morbus]
lilo's got constipation!
19:13:58 [Ash-w]
I'm dying laughing.
19:14:00 [Ash-w]
This is so funny.
19:14:11 [Morbus]
a history lesson?
19:14:47 [Morbus]
"around that time, I klined everyone then too. i told myself, "never again". but alas, again has happened".
19:14:53 [Ash-w]
rotfl
19:15:04 [Morbus]
"my assumption was wrong. it was really #rtfm".
19:15:31 [Morbus]
"but I, in godli... er, Winerlike fashion, brought order to the chaso".
19:15:36 [Morbus]
"i called it, irc v0.94".
19:15:59 [Morbus]
"#linpeople, because all the good, sensical names were taken"
19:16:09 [Morbus]
"the other three, i ate".
19:16:18 [Morbus]
"now you know how winer got so big".
19:16:35 [Ash-w]
Ash-w has changed the topic to: <Morbus> i'm numbah one lilo fan. <Morbus> you guys all poser, yes. || <lilo> I pretty much started #linpeople, a place where friendly idiots like myself could act like we knew things, and stuff
19:23:39 [justme_]
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19:23:39 [Ash-w]
lol morbus
19:24:27 [Morbus]
"so, in other words, no, the network is not suddently dying. it slowly dying. about three weeks, by my estimates"
19:24:30 [Morbus]
"off to lunch!"
19:24:32 [Morbus]
<g>
19:25:08 [Ash-w]
LOL
19:25:12 [Ash-w]
dude, this is so funny
19:25:13 [Ash-w]
ahaha
19:25:22 [Ash-w]
I betcha he's say6ing somebody else is gonna be OPN boss now
19:28:05 [Morbus]
"oh yeah, talk amongst yourself"
19:28:11 [Morbus]
"<everyone> lilo, don't forget to take -m off"
19:28:16 [Morbus]
"<everyone> uh, lilo?
19:28:23 [Morbus]
"<everyone> lillOOOo?"
19:28:48 [Morbus]
lol.
19:28:50 [Morbus]
lilo-sucks-cock.
19:28:53 [Morbus]
man, that's precious.
19:29:06 [Morbus]
"in other words, fix my bugs"
19:29:41 [Morbus]
"cos, really, after he bought that RealDoll last year, he hasn't been as energetic as he once was".
19:30:15 [Morbus]
logster, where am I?
19:30:15 [Morbus]
See http://blogspace.com/swhack/chatlogs/2002-06-10#T19-30-15
19:30:53 [Morbus]
"in other words, our "primary coder" is me, and you already know how good I am"
19:31:12 [Morbus]
we need someone to come in with "lilo_have_my_baby_please!"
19:31:51 [Morbus]
lilo is moocher? now, that i can't agree with.
19:32:00 [Morbus]
what has left #lilo?
19:32:02 [Morbus]
sanity, perhaps.
19:32:05 [Morbus]
the IPO people.
19:32:12 [Morbus]
all hope for a happy irc server.
19:32:15 [Morbus]
respect?
19:32:35 [Morbus]
ew! lilo's giving handjobs now.
19:32:52 [justme]
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19:33:34 [Morbus]
"somethignn like chatzilla. it worked for mozilla, you know"?
19:34:09 [Morbus]
"the nonprofit which inevitably spelt my downfall"
19:34:13 [Morbus]
(much like evolt.org).
19:34:30 [Morbus]
even the cows are leaving.
19:34:31 [Morbus]
not good.
19:35:17 [Morbus]
"a good strong recession. much like other oxymorons, like network stability"
19:35:29 [Ash-w]
lol
19:35:33 [Morbus]
"because I voted for Bush. if you didn't, then you can't code"
19:35:49 [Ash-w]
Morbus: I'm pretty sure LIELO isn't the lead coder.
19:35:56 [Morbus]
lielo? heh, heh.
19:35:59 [Ash-w]
He just likes putting his name in the credits
19:36:00 [Ash-w]
hehe
19:36:12 [Morbus]
"and it's the biggest state! that's gotta be good, right?
19:36:34 [Ash-w]
rotfl
19:36:36 [Morbus]
"but all this is pointless, since i have no money. so i'm paying my laywer something for nothing"
19:37:15 [Morbus]
"i just need $2000 more for my legal fee. hopefully, my lead coder will help with that"
19:37:41 [Morbus]
"and can you believe this, I'M FUCKING BLIND!"
19:37:47 [Morbus]
"i mean, talk about fucking sheep's wool!"
19:38:47 [Morbus]
"which are 'uptimes longer than 24 hours', and 'stupid esoteric features like topic annoyance'"
19:39:29 [Ash-w]
LOL
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19:43:25 [Morbus]
LOL
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19:43:27 [bitsko]
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19:43:31 [Morbus]
oh man, this is fucking classic.
19:43:33 [Acapnotic]
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19:43:33 [Morbus]
whoo.
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19:44:15 [Morbus]
[[[
19:44:16 [Morbus]
[16:45] <quasi> grr - not another netsplit
19:44:16 [Morbus]
[16:45] <davidw> that'll teach you to make fun of him
19:44:16 [Morbus]
[16:45] <DrBacchus> lol
19:44:16 [Morbus]
[16:45] <Morbus> hehehehe
19:44:16 [Morbus]
]]]
19:45:00 [deus_x]
DrBacchus? Ain't he a #perl regular?
19:45:28 [Morbus]
i think so. i'm not in #perl a lot, but he's always in #apache
19:45:43 [Morbus]
"the problem today occurred as a direct result of my removing large numbers of clonebot KLINES"
19:45:49 [Morbus]
"so yes, once again, I, your gracious leader, suck"
19:45:57 [Morbus]
"so, uh, can I have some money?"
19:46:49 [deus_x]
That's it. I'm running an IRC network off my home linux box.
19:48:20 [deus_x]
Maybe I won't even make it public. It'll be me, and my cats. Maybe my girlfriend.
19:48:26 [Morbus]
and me!
19:48:29 [Morbus]
cos you love me.
19:48:40 [deus_x]
Okay. But take your shoes off at the door.
19:48:54 [redmonk]
http://speakshermind.redmonk.net/109
19:49:42 [Morbus]
ooOH.
19:50:15 [deus_x]
Funny, my browser just crashed.
19:50:33 [redmonk]
if you liek that one, you should try this one my buddy did:
19:51:00 [redmonk]
http://static.free-conversant.com/jim/stevelady.jpg
19:51:35 [deus_x]
Hah! nice
19:51:41 [Morbus]
hehehe;
19:51:45 [redmonk]
"could it be... oh, I don't know... SAAAATAN!?!"
20:00:05 [Morbus]
heh: "essary
20:00:05 [Morbus]
[16:52] <dJOEk> quasi: i could do that ..."
20:00:08 [Morbus]
uh.
20:00:22 [Morbus]
i meant: "[16:59] <ob0t> lilo: can i take it that you partake of the cock on a regular basis?"
20:03:13 [justme_]
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20:03:26 [AaronSw]
bitsko, not just you
20:05:06 [AaronSw]
ash, do you have #lilo logs?
20:06:25 [AaronSw]
wow, redmonk looks smart.
20:06:44 [AaronSw]
Morbus, do you have #lilo logs?
20:07:14 [AaronSw]
AaronSw has changed the topic to: red-glasses-monk
20:07:43 [Morbus]
AaronSw: [16:59] <hensema> <spam> logs of lilo's talk: http://dexter.hensema.net/~erik/lilo.txt </spam>
20:19:13 [AaronSw]
"Thanks to the vigilance of our intelligence-gathering and law enforcement, he is now off the streets, where he should be," Bush said
20:19:31 [AaronSw]
man, bush is really language challenged
20:21:20 [deus_x]
It's worse than that, Jim.
20:29:15 [Morbus]
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20:38:31 [redmonk]
aaronsw: is there an rss version of the swack logs?
20:38:43 [AaronSw]
of the weblog, not the chatlog
20:38:49 [redmonk]
oh.
20:38:56 [redmonk]
consider it a feat req
20:39:34 [xena]
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20:39:54 [AaronSw]
what would you use it for?
20:40:12 [redmonk]
reading the latest swhack in Amphetadesk
20:40:31 [redmonk]
i know it wouldn't be all of it
20:40:31 [redmonk]
but it would be a fun sampling
20:40:47 [AaronSw]
no, it would be all of it...
20:40:52 [AaronSw]
unless i misunderstand
20:41:00 [AaronSw]
you'd probably blow up ampheta, tho :)
20:41:27 [redmonk]
well, i would suggest making the rss feed return the last 15 or so "posts"
20:41:59 [redmonk]
with the <link> going to the permalink in the logs
20:42:15 [redmonk]
just some thoughts
20:42:28 [redmonk]
or make it a setting
20:42:36 [redmonk]
swack.rss?number=15
20:42:44 [AaronSw]
feel free to write it :)
20:43:15 [redmonk]
lol
20:43:21 [redmonk]
yeah right ;)
20:43:29 [redmonk]
like i have any free time
20:43:36 [redmonk]
thanks for listening though ;)
20:43:39 [AaronSw]
So chatting on IRC is work? :)
20:45:54 [redmonk]
um... um...
20:46:00 [redmonk]
bye!
20:51:17 [AaronSw]
:
20:51:22 [AaronSw]
ooh, xena bug
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20:58:53 [AaronSw]
.rehash
20:58:59 [AaronSw]
.rehash
20:59:04 [AaronSw]
:
20:59:17 [AaronSw]
:
20:59:24 [AaronSw]
cool. fixed
21:00:15 [AaronSw]
.rehash
21:00:31 [AaronSw]
foo : bar baz : bob
21:01:36 [AaronSw]
.rehash
21:01:56 [AaronSw]
yo yo : bar
21:02:30 [AaronSw]
.rehash
21:02:45 [AaronSw]
yo yo : bar
21:03:00 [AaronSw]
.rehash
21:21:19 [redmonk]
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21:22:10 [AaronSw]
Ooh, the DAML crawler is cool
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21:39:14 [Morbus]
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21:40:36 [Morbus]
12 people? sheesh.
21:40:49 [AaronSw]
the day, the servers, died
21:41:16 [Morbus]
whooooahh, whoahh.
21:42:03 [AaronSw]
and i was singin'
21:42:44 [Morbus]
i was trying ;)
21:47:33 [AaronSw]
bye, bye, server admin guy
21:48:00 [Morbus]
* Morbus works on the new icons/logos for ampheta.
21:48:03 [AaronSw]
took my client to the scientific server and tried
21:48:11 [Morbus]
[off] release planned for this friday.
21:48:16 [AaronSw]
to logo on and connect but my connection just fried
21:48:18 [AaronSw]
the day the servers died
21:48:23 [AaronSw]
[off] woo
21:49:24 [Morbus]
[off] they'll be things missing, but for the most part, it'll be user-ready.
21:49:27 [Morbus]
[off] not sure all teh developer docs will work.
21:49:32 [Morbus]
[off] and Classic Mac is still giving me a headache.,
21:49:43 [Morbus]
[off] somehow, i gotta fix this all by then. heh.
21:51:53 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw -> dinner
22:01:33 [bitsko]
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22:02:08 [bitsko]
so, anybody stay 'til the end of the story?
22:02:41 [Morbus]
i stayed until he -m, yeah
22:02:57 [Morbus]
unless that's not what you're talking about.
22:03:02 [Morbus]
in which case, yeah, great story, eh?
22:03:22 [bitsko]
I think I was on past -m
22:04:02 [Morbus]
yeah, i didn't stick around for comments.
22:15:59 [Morbus]
did you hear that NiF may not be doing rss feeds anymore?
22:18:50 [bitsko]
NiF?
22:20:41 [Morbus]
newsisfree.com
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22:44:45 [lilo]
[GlobalNotice] Hi all. Just a reminder. Earlier during our server problems the services database was corrupted. We've discovered a hole in our backup regime and the latest valid database we had was from a bit over a month ago. We'll try to restore the old database, but no guarantees on that one. Massive apologies for the inconvenience.
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