IRC log of swhack on 2001-10-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:29:26 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw waves
00:47:52 [Morbus]
Morbus has joined #swhack
00:47:57 [sbp]
sbp has joined #swhack
00:48:13 [Morbus]
Morbus has quit
00:48:17 [AaronSw]
hello
00:48:19 [AaronSw]
oops, missed Morbus
00:48:42 [Morbus]
Morbus has joined #swhack
00:49:10 [sbp]
Hi
00:49:19 [sbp]
the PySWAG-D is going well
00:50:18 [AaronSw]
Cool
00:52:00 [sbp]
oh, of course... hang on a sec, I have to reconigure it
00:52:05 [sbp]
erm...
00:52:16 [sbp]
I told the plumber
00:52:22 [AaronSw]
About what?
00:52:44 [sbp]
about some plumbing thing
00:53:42 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw imagines sbp talking to the plumber: "Hi there! Would you like to see this new Python-based RDF store for decentralized schemata I'm building?"
00:53:57 [AaronSw]
Only reads N-Triples, pah!
00:54:21 [AaronSw]
How's it going, Morbus?
00:54:35 [Morbus]
Morbus: i have to go pee. i won't, though. instead, i will increase my bladder size.
00:54:35 [Morbus]
Morbus: soon, i shall never have to pee. muhahaha
00:54:40 [Morbus]
what do you think? ;)
00:54:41 [sbp]
only reads NTriples: well, then we can open it up to people
00:54:54 [sbp]
if people publish it in NTriples, then they have indeed worked hard
00:55:12 [AaronSw]
Interesting, Morbus.
00:55:16 [sbp]
plus, it's context driven! so if people add a crap load of data, we can just delete the context. Ha, ha!
00:55:30 [AaronSw]
sbp, no they will simply use my site to convert.
00:55:36 [AaronSw]
Ooh, contexts.. cool.
00:55:47 [AaronSw]
Can you fix it so it doesn't use those stupid CGI addresses, tho?
00:55:53 [sbp]
they won't use your site to convert, because it doesn't fecking work
00:56:03 [sbp]
stupid CGI addresses: that will be your job
00:56:11 [Morbus]
i want a job.
00:56:20 [Morbus]
ooh ooh pick me pick me
00:57:26 [AaronSw]
I thought it worked -- you gave me a URL that worked.
00:57:43 [sbp]
no, it's Aaron's responsiblity, not yours. Don't dig him out of the hole that he dug himself into
00:57:54 [AaronSw]
Pfft.
00:57:56 [AaronSw]
You better make it easy for me to fix.
00:57:57 [sbp]
yeah: CWM messes up whitspace on some schemata
00:58:22 [Morbus]
ooh. AaronSw screwed up?
00:58:43 [AaronSw]
sbp, well fix something: a) cwm b) your code
00:58:53 [AaronSw]
O dodm
00:58:58 [AaronSw]
I didn't screw anything up!
01:00:29 [Morbus]
* Morbus backs away slowly.
01:04:56 [AaronSw]
Address Book.app is really screwed up.
01:09:05 [AaronSw]
Heheh, Jeremy Carroll: "WARNING WARNING JEREMY IS EXPLODING ... :)"
01:09:34 [AaronSw]
Art Barstow: "You know Pearl Jam wrote a song about a Jeremy getting out of control:"
01:11:01 [AaronSw]
Ugh, AudioGalaxy has stepped up their filters.
01:15:11 [sbp]
ugh
01:16:31 [AaronSw]
When will folks learn...
01:20:25 [sbp]
Gotta run
01:21:20 [AaronSw]
c'ya
01:23:25 [sbp]
sbp has quit
02:02:25 [Morbus]
heh. aaron. from the synca code:
02:02:45 [AaronSw]
lol!
02:02:46 [AaronSw]
Did you mean to keep that out of log
02:03:00 [Morbus]
no. that's just how a comment is in perl <g>
02:03:11 [Morbus]
some spelling errors too.
02:03:12 [Morbus]
fixing.
02:03:12 [AaronSw]
Dedicated to all the companies who wait until they get a large user base dedictaed to using their free softwar, and then shafting said user base with mandatory payment for continued usage. I crush your head.
02:03:20 [Morbus]
you like that, though?
02:03:21 [AaronSw]
:-)
02:03:41 [AaronSw]
You might want to change "crush your head" to something more appropriate
02:03:50 [Morbus]
like what? i spit on your grave?
02:04:07 [AaronSw]
lol, that's great
02:04:13 [Morbus]
which? <g>
02:04:21 [AaronSw]
the grave
02:04:41 [Morbus]
i'll use that one then :)
02:05:11 [Morbus]
gotta find a diff word for the second dedicated though
02:05:25 [Morbus]
dependant?
02:06:37 [AaronSw]
Yeah, that's good.
02:22:37 [AaronSw]
<davb> Perl is like vice grips. You can do anything with it, and it's the wrong tool for every job.
02:23:02 [AaronSw]
<davb> Python is executable pseudocode. Perl is executable line noise.
02:23:16 [AaronSw]
Not actually from davb, from http://www.mindview.net/Books/Python/ThinkingInPython.html
02:23:18 [Morbus]
hehehehe
02:25:13 [Morbus]
whatdya think of:
02:25:57 [AaronSw]
Dedicated to all the companies who wait until a large user base becomes dependant on their free software, then shafting said happy campers with mandatory payment for continued usage. I spit on your grave.
02:26:21 [AaronSw]
Hmm.. perhaps change free software to something that doesn't make it sound GNU
02:26:40 [Morbus]
/free software/freeware/?
02:27:07 [AaronSw]
Yeah, that'd be good.
02:30:01 [Morbus]
k
02:31:55 [Morbus]
ooh. my file rotate/backup code is fly.
02:32:05 [Morbus]
* Morbus stifles chuckle.
02:32:16 [AaronSw]
fly?
02:32:34 [Morbus]
yeah, you know, like superfly. i dunno why i said that.
02:32:50 [AaronSw]
Heh.
02:33:37 [AaronSw]
Hehehe: [[[Yup, 8 millibits per second. This counts as the first implementation of IP over humpback whale song, with ones encoded as "AHOOOOOOOOHHHhhh..." and zeroes encoded as "EEEEEEeeeeEEEEEeeEEEEE..." ]]]
02:33:56 [deltab]
hehe
02:34:26 [AaronSw]
- http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=22763&threshold=-1&commentsort=0&mode=thread&pid=2449346#2449452
02:34:48 [AaronSw]
err http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=22763&cid=2449452
02:38:13 [AaronSw]
Heheh: http://www.python.org/doc/Humor.html#yoda
02:40:38 [Morbus]
just cvs'd my latest changes. woo. think i'm done for the night.
02:45:29 [AaronSw]
Ahh, I still love this line:
02:46:08 [AaronSw]
"""Allegedly, a group of 12 and 13-year old Girl Scouts had gathered for their weekly fix of "90210," the popular prime time television soap opera, but started reading TidBITS-320 during the advertisements. The group began to speculate as to the various meanings of the phrase "damn tootin'" and reportedly went downhill fast from there, falling into an Internet-induced frenzy involving heavy intravenous drug use that almost led the girls to lives of prost
02:46:09 [AaronSw]
- http://www.tidbits.com/issue321/
02:46:30 [Morbus]
bwahahah
02:47:01 [Morbus]
you saw amphetadesk in issue600, right? nudge, nudge, wink, wink ;)
02:47:27 [AaronSw]
yep
02:47:46 [AaronSw]
It was an April Fools joke too?
02:47:49 [AaronSw]
Real URL: http://www.tidbits.com/tb-issues/TidBITS-321.html
02:49:34 [sbp]
sbp has joined #swhack
02:49:54 [sbp]
we are?
02:50:06 [sbp]
is anybody here?
02:50:12 [Morbus]
AaronSw: you here?
02:50:18 [AaronSw]
I am.
02:50:24 [Morbus]
I'm not.
02:50:24 [AaronSw]
We are what?
02:50:28 [AaronSw]
Oh, that.
02:50:31 [Morbus]
What we are, of course.
02:51:01 [AaronSw]
AaronSw has changed the topic to: It's Alright, Ma. (It's Only Morbus)
02:51:29 [sbp]
ah! commendable topic
02:51:35 [Morbus]
Heh. When you don't carpool, you ride with morbus. no one wants that now, do we?
02:51:50 [Morbus]
yeah, that didn't make much sense, unless you remember the old postwar hitler/carpool ad.
02:52:12 [AaronSw]
Ah.
02:52:22 [Morbus]
you know of it, AaronSw?
02:52:24 [sbp]
* sbp is building towards a new homepage
02:52:29 [AaronSw]
No, but I can guess.
02:52:36 [Morbus]
yeah, it was pretty funny.
02:52:58 [Morbus]
it said "when you don't carpool, you ride with hitler", and it had this happy guy all alone, with a ghost hitler in the passenger seat.
02:54:28 [AaronSw]
sbp, homepage looks much better now... but can we put that pool picture of you by the palm tree?
02:54:54 [AaronSw]
Where'd you get that Palm tree, btw? you draw it?
02:55:08 [sbp]
I don't have one of me by a palm tree. Just the palm tree by itself
02:55:13 [sbp]
yes, I drew it
02:55:37 [AaronSw]
Yes, so use the Pool picture... drop it on top or something
02:56:07 [sbp]
the pool picture is massive
02:56:08 [AaronSw]
Huh? "Just give me eight acres and a mule."
02:56:28 [sbp]
what's so "huh?" about that? Neohomesteading
02:57:05 [AaronSw]
It came out of left field.
02:57:15 [AaronSw]
I only homestead on the noosphere, fwiw
02:57:40 [AaronSw]
"This word is currently in low circulation." Don't tell them!
02:57:49 [sbp]
anyhoo, I'd like to use the pool picture, but I like the palm too
02:57:56 [sbp]
don't tell them: yeah... heh
02:58:10 [AaronSw]
Ted Nelson is a pretty phenomicizes quite a bit.
02:58:25 [AaronSw]
I was just mentioning that to tav, who said he didn't like the term "dataplesh"
02:58:35 [deltab]
?Redo from start
02:58:42 [AaronSw]
Huh?
02:58:48 [deltab]
exactly
02:58:55 [deltab]
025939Z <AaronSw:#swhack> Ted Nelson is a pretty phenomicizes quite a bit.
02:59:09 [AaronSw]
Oops, I meant Ted Nelson phenomicizes quite a bit.
02:59:22 [AaronSw]
I was trying to use it in adjective form, but it didn't work.
02:59:25 [AaronSw]
He's phenomical?
02:59:32 [AaronSw]
to tav: "Perhaps you need to read a dose of Ted Nelson for it to make sense. I mean, he's quite proud of inventing the General Enfilde Theory, and things everyone should dag instead of click. Remember that the world is closely intertwingled."
02:59:36 [deltab]
phenomenal?
02:59:42 [AaronSw]
s/thinks/thinks/
02:59:47 [AaronSw]
err s/things/thinks/
03:00:02 [AaronSw]
phenomenal... perhaps
03:00:15 [AaronSw]
sbp's just phenominal!
03:00:36 [AaronSw]
sbp, who was this colleague and how did he pronounce FragID?
03:00:42 [AaronSw]
It's not phenomic to me at all.
03:01:00 [sbp]
WL
03:01:16 [AaronSw]
I suspected as much.
03:01:39 [AaronSw]
pronouncing it fragid would be cool.
03:01:47 [AaronSw]
That's fragid, dude -- stay away.
03:02:08 [sbp]
is that plam alright, ro should I whip it out?
03:02:21 [AaronSw]
ro ro ro your palm
03:02:25 [AaronSw]
I like it -- I think it fits well.
03:02:42 [AaronSw]
LOL: alt="Oooooooooh!"
03:02:45 [sbp]
phew
03:02:52 [AaronSw]
class="hjs" title="Homer J. Simpson"
03:02:57 [sbp]
yeah, that's a recycled alt.... ahem
03:03:16 [AaronSw]
Ooooooooh!
03:03:26 [sbp]
that's what Homer's doing!
03:03:32 [Morbus]
oh yeah, sbp, you should see the dedicate in the sync source code :)
03:03:33 [sbp]
He's saying "Oooooooooh!"
03:03:41 [sbp]
URI?
03:03:42 [AaronSw]
Indeed he is.
03:03:46 [AaronSw]
It's in the logs.
03:05:17 [AaronSw]
You need a third image to complete things...
03:05:18 [sbp]
ah, yes. Indeed it is
03:05:28 [sbp]
a third?
03:05:38 [sbp]
two is like a new record for me!
03:05:49 [AaronSw]
I know... but it feels so incomplete!
03:05:51 [AaronSw]
Yeah, perhaps a pic of a verbivore, or some music.
03:06:33 [sbp]
Hmm... I see what you mean
03:06:45 [AaronSw]
It's asymetric.
03:07:01 [Morbus]
goddamit.
03:07:17 [sbp]
note that the asterisks are aslo images
03:08:06 [AaronSw]
You're right... that's sucky...
03:08:14 [sbp]
annoying thing is, it's getting more like the current site every day
03:08:24 [sbp]
no, I wanted to link them to a little audio cue
03:08:58 [sbp]
I couldn't do that with CSS, or just plain text (well I could, but it would have sucked in non-CSS browsers), and the GIF is sub 0.5KB
03:09:13 [AaronSw]
Hmm, OK then.
03:09:17 [AaronSw]
Ooh, I love this song!
03:09:24 [AaronSw]
It makes me feel so anarchy!
03:09:35 [sbp]
so anarchy?
03:09:50 [AaronSw]
Yeah... as in jittery or silly... anarchy
03:09:58 [sbp]
what is it with you and adjectives today?
03:10:07 [sbp]
anarchic, or anarchaic
03:10:22 [AaronSw]
Anarchaic makes it sound like it's old.
03:10:29 [AaronSw]
Or perhaps new.
03:10:35 [sbp]
that's anachronistic
03:10:58 [AaronSw]
I mean, you gotta love any song that starts "Give me an F!" "F!" "Give me a U!" "U" etc.
03:11:00 [sbp]
ah: anarchic
03:11:06 [AaronSw]
"What's that spell?" ...
03:11:07 [AaronSw]
"What's that spell?" ...
03:11:08 [AaronSw]
"What's that spell?" ...
03:11:08 [AaronSw]
"What's that spell?" ...
03:11:12 [AaronSw]
He does it like 20 times.
03:11:21 [sbp]
it spells: FU
03:11:35 [AaronSw]
It goes on, stupid.
03:11:42 [AaronSw]
I'm too lazy to type it all.
03:11:45 [sbp]
ah, "fuzzle"
03:11:50 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw smacks sbp
03:12:32 [AaronSw]
"Be the first one on your block to have your boy come home in a box!"
03:12:51 [sbp]
heh, if were confusing nouns for adjectives: you have a doggy imagination
03:13:03 [AaronSw]
How so?
03:13:22 [deltab]
hehe
03:13:25 [sbp]
just a phrasism I thought up
03:13:53 [AaronSw]
You might want to blow your nose -- you seem a bit phrasal today.
03:14:02 [sbp]
he he he
03:14:55 [Morbus]
welp, i'm outta here
03:15:26 [deltab]
nasal relates to the nose, so phrasal relates to the...?
03:15:32 [AaronSw]
OceanStore has a great logo: http://oceanstore.cs.berkeley.edu/images/oceanblue.gif
03:15:42 [sbp]
how does the weather go: whither weather?
03:15:48 [Morbus]
Morbus has quit
03:16:00 [AaronSw]
phrasal relates to the phrase
03:16:01 [AaronSw]
and it's overuse
03:16:18 [AaronSw]
s/it's/its/
03:16:38 [sbp]
ah, you suddenly make sensy
03:16:48 [sbp]
you have become ensensified!
03:17:02 [AaronSw]
"Ohhh, darling you're sooo sensy tonight."
03:17:11 [AaronSw]
Is that what you say to sensual people?
03:17:24 [sbp]
no, they're sensual
03:17:36 [AaronSw]
"It doesn't have to be consensual to be sensual."
03:18:33 [sbp]
that's an optimistic assesment
03:18:57 [AaronSw]
That
03:19:06 [AaronSw]
That's true... I do need to go to the optimologist.
03:19:47 [sbp]
having your optimoids removed again, eh?
03:20:08 [AaronSw]
I realized today that it's not just my imagination... I really can't see long distances.
03:20:18 [AaronSw]
I was at my brother's football game, and my eyes are totally shot.
03:20:31 [sbp]
too much sitting at the computer screen
03:20:34 [AaronSw]
Yep If I squint or push on them I can see better again.
03:20:54 [AaronSw]
So i've installed software that locks me out of the computer ever x minutes.
03:21:00 [AaronSw]
Where I've set x to 20.
03:21:04 [sbp]
really?
03:21:10 [AaronSw]
Yep.
03:21:23 [AaronSw]
Well, it doesn't lock me out... it just puts this big red splotch over the screen.
03:21:28 [AaronSw]
That says my time is up.
03:21:37 [sbp]
ported to Windows?
03:22:00 [AaronSw]
I'm sure there are a ton for Windows.
03:22:20 [AaronSw]
Do a search for RSI software.
03:22:23 [AaronSw]
Since it's really designed for RSI sufferers
03:22:34 [sbp]
uh huh
03:22:49 [AaronSw]
My hands will be next.
03:23:03 [AaronSw]
My neck is already really messed up, but I think that was mostly my heavy backpack from school.
03:23:24 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw looks for his Handeze gloves
03:24:04 [sbp]
I wore my backpack on one shoulder for years... doesn't seem to have done anything to severe, so that's cool
03:24:16 [sbp]
actually, I think it probably strengthened that side :-)
03:24:23 [AaronSw]
Hmm... but my backpack was heavy, and I'm quite small.
03:24:29 [AaronSw]
My shoulders were definitely strong afterward.
03:24:35 [sbp]
I used to carry lead weights in mine
03:24:36 [AaronSw]
I had like bulging shoulder muscles
03:24:41 [AaronSw]
it was quite weird
03:24:48 [sbp]
heh, but just on one side
03:25:01 [sbp]
* sbp probably did carry lead weights at one time. Dunno
03:25:15 [AaronSw]
Weird.
03:25:37 [AaronSw]
It was so heavy I just stopped carrying textbooks.
03:25:38 [sbp]
fishing weights
03:25:45 [sbp]
heh, sensible plan
03:25:48 [AaronSw]
But still it was much too heavy.
03:26:03 [AaronSw]
So i got rid of homework and other papers
03:26:09 [AaronSw]
but still it was pretty heavy.
03:26:14 [sbp]
easier to just leave the books at college, and then find them
03:26:33 [AaronSw]
No, this was before I went to college.
03:26:38 [sbp]
still, I needed a bag for all my discs...
03:26:53 [AaronSw]
discs?
03:27:00 [sbp]
floppies
03:27:13 [sbp]
Hmm... still not as good as your homepage. Closer, though
03:27:18 [AaronSw]
Oops, here's another break.
03:27:30 [AaronSw]
Really? I was going to change my page to be more like yours.
03:27:40 [AaronSw]
your new one at least.
03:28:15 [sbp]
well, yours fits nicely, and it has more content
03:28:22 [sbp]
you've done cooler stuff than I have
03:29:04 [AaronSw]
Heh.
03:29:14 [sbp]
<AaronSw> Really? I was going to change my page to be more like yours.
03:29:29 [sbp]
ironic: I've been very carefully trying to avoid your design!
03:29:50 [AaronSw]
Heheh.
03:29:53 [sbp]
heh, I reckon you sneak in small changes, and I think "was it like that before? crap, I'd better change it just in case"
03:30:12 [AaronSw]
People keep saying it's like Jakob Nielsen which really bugs me.
03:30:21 [sbp]
ugh!
03:30:26 [sbp]
I'd beeter check mine isn't...
03:30:31 [AaronSw]
I ran it thru checklink and fixed a few problems with it.
03:30:55 [sbp]
blimey, yours *is* like Jakob's
03:31:31 [sbp]
'cept better, better content, better font, better layout of information
03:31:42 [AaronSw]
Aww, thanks.
03:32:07 [sbp]
but the two boxes... perhaps a sub-concious insriation?
03:32:30 [sbp]
er... subconscious inspiration is probably what I was trying to say
03:34:03 [AaronSw]
Heh.
03:34:16 [AaronSw]
Perhaps...
03:36:22 [sbp]
ah, I've moved Homer down, so I only need two images now
03:36:44 [AaronSw]
Did you move the palm too?
03:36:51 [sbp]
nope
03:37:02 [sbp]
so rather than oox it's oxo
03:37:41 [AaronSw]
Hmm... it's better -- but it still feels like an image would be good
03:37:56 [sbp]
I'm resisting the urge to put the pool photo
03:38:01 [sbp]
on it
03:38:11 [AaronSw]
Oh, come on.
03:38:21 [AaronSw]
It'd go great next to other stuff
03:38:28 [sbp]
it's too big!
03:38:40 [AaronSw]
what a lame response.
03:38:42 [AaronSw]
shrink it down
03:38:52 [sbp]
and if I crop it, or minisculize it, it smegs the ambience
03:39:47 [AaronSw]
ambience? hmmph
03:41:26 [sbp]
smeggit, this page is still as much of a sell out as the old one. Now it's just a well designed sell out
03:42:08 [AaronSw]
How is it a sellout?
03:42:14 [sbp]
I wanted a little story on there or something, but everytime I wrote something, it either sucked, or it was too big so I had to put it on another page and link to it
03:42:34 [sbp]
sellout: "Hi! I'm Sean B. Palmer, a great big Google loving narcissist"
03:42:48 [AaronSw]
So?
03:43:05 [sbp]
well, that sucks. I'd rather not have a homepage if it's really like that
03:43:24 [sbp]
the bottom of the page is alright...
03:43:44 [sbp]
from "Verbivore" downwards
03:44:32 [sbp]
the top half is "this is who I am. This is how to contact me. This is what I do. Aren't I boring? Could I be any more cliched?"
03:44:56 [AaronSw]
LOL
03:44:59 [AaronSw]
You should put that on.
03:45:06 [sbp]
yes!
03:45:09 [AaronSw]
and make them links
03:45:14 [AaronSw]
and take out the boring junk
03:47:50 [sbp]
* sbp works on it
03:48:47 [sbp]
* sbp chops away at it, worrying about the balance later
03:50:41 [sbp]
cool, I've utterly destroyed it
03:51:19 [sbp]
* sbp makes a backup
03:51:34 [AaronSw]
Yeah, I like that.
03:54:54 [sbp]
Ugh, but now the design quality goes in the wrong direction. I spent too mcuh time working on the top of the document: silly me
03:55:51 [AaronSw]
Can you link "Aaron Swartz"?
03:56:00 [sbp]
pay me
03:56:28 [AaronSw]
LOL!
03:57:02 [sbp]
yeah, I wondered about that. On the one hand, it really really sucks big time if I don't make it into a link, but on the other hand, people will be like, "oh, this dude is more more interesting than this git; I'll go to his homepage instead"
03:57:02 [AaronSw]
The LOL scale: heh; Heh.; Heheh.; Heheh!; lol; LOL; LOL!
03:57:11 [AaronSw]
LOL
03:58:00 [sbp]
perhaps I can put that in as a note at the very bottom, with the link, and a note stating that I'm still expecting payment from you
03:58:37 [AaronSw]
See it's only funny to me, because it wouldn't scare anyone else.
03:58:52 [AaronSw]
Hey, you took out the menu bit!
03:59:04 [sbp]
only funny to you? what, and why?
03:59:16 [AaronSw]
the "pay me" thing
03:59:25 [AaronSw]
because I'm scared I'll have to pay everyone for links
03:59:36 [sbp]
ah, good point
03:59:48 [AaronSw]
the email thing could be quite funny to many visitors, because they probably plan on or have mailed you, so they're scared that it won't go thru
04:00:07 [sbp]
email thing?
04:00:21 [AaronSw]
I rent my emails out on weekends to a takeout service
04:00:32 [AaronSw]
so please only inquire about menu prices during the week
04:00:56 [sbp]
I took that bit out ages ago... it didn't fit well
04:01:04 [AaronSw]
Why not?
04:01:38 [sbp]
well, both in the desgin sense (the bold looked out of place) and the content sense (I don't really want to scare the shit out of people who email me)
04:02:00 [AaronSw]
LOL, but that's what makes it funny.
04:02:54 [sbp]
perhaps
04:03:46 [AaronSw]
Jokes are melted fear.
04:04:05 [AaronSw]
Dave Winer often says "Fear is frozen fun."
04:04:31 [sbp]
er... yeah, of course...
04:05:05 [sbp]
I didn't call Dave Winer a nutcase!
04:05:14 [AaronSw]
You didn't?
04:05:24 [AaronSw]
Have you stopped beating your wife too?
04:05:33 [AaronSw]
"Jokes are melted fear." doesn't have the same alliterative qualities, tho
04:05:34 [sbp]
I forgot I was married
04:05:40 [AaronSw]
(Hmm, does that mean it can't read?)
04:06:14 [sbp]
have you stopped getting mad at your school?
04:06:36 [sbp]
* sbp makes the link
04:07:25 [AaronSw]
Nope, that'll never happen.
04:07:53 [sbp]
the teachers that taught you weren't cool, eh?
04:08:12 [sbp]
they held you down, turned you 'round, filled you up with their rules...
04:08:17 [sbp]
at least it's Getting Better
04:09:36 [AaronSw]
It's Getting Better all the time.
04:10:02 [sbp]
(it can't get any worse)
04:10:09 [sbp]
yes, I admit it's Getting Better
04:10:18 [sbp]
etc.
04:10:40 [AaronSw]
I thought it was "can't get much worse"
04:10:54 [sbp]
Hmm...
04:11:17 [AaronSw]
Oh, that's a different section.
04:11:52 [sbp]
ah
04:15:28 [sbp]
"Contrary to popular opinion, I do not answer the name 'Spanky'."
04:15:43 [sbp]
"answer to the name of", rather
04:16:04 [sbp]
s/of//
04:16:24 [sbp]
shame it isn't f/x/y/
04:16:35 [sbp]
cause you could do
04:16:50 [sbp]
hey, off
04:16:58 [sbp]
f/off/you arsehole/
04:17:10 [AaronSw]
lol!
04:17:25 [sbp]
* sbp was hoping for a "LOL"
04:17:45 [AaronSw]
Keep trying. :)
04:18:02 [sbp]
let's see... what was in the newspaper today?
04:18:13 [AaronSw]
I read the news today, oh boy.
04:18:33 [sbp]
ah, yes: 4000 holes in Blackburn, Lancs.
04:18:42 [AaronSw]
The English army just killed 400 innocent civillians.
04:18:55 [AaronSw]
Hmm, that's a bit of a stretch to get all that to fit.
04:19:14 [AaronSw]
Shoot! My poem didn't turn out when I uploaded it.
04:23:09 [sbp]
turn out?
04:26:53 [sbp]
hello?
04:26:59 [sbp]
Aaron!!!
04:27:03 [AaronSw]
Hi.
04:27:07 [sbp]
hi there
04:27:11 [sbp]
turn out?
04:27:14 [AaronSw]
The picture of the poem, rather.
04:27:33 [AaronSw]
I took a picture of some great urban poetry.
04:27:49 [AaronSw]
But when it went thru the website-addition process, the text became unreadable...
04:27:51 [sbp]
you mean, "Graffiti"
04:27:57 [AaronSw]
No, actually not.
04:28:00 [AaronSw]
I'll have to fix it.
04:28:01 [sbp]
blargh, bummer
04:28:24 [AaronSw]
Someone had printed up a poem and pasted it on top of the "PRESS BUTTON TO WALK" sign.
04:28:42 [AaronSw]
http://blogspace.com/pictures/photo-view?photo_id=6346
04:28:53 [AaronSw]
It said something about how we were drowning in garbage, etc.
04:29:20 [AaronSw]
I liked it a lot.
04:29:20 [sbp]
Only...
04:29:42 [AaronSw]
Here, let me get out the original
04:30:21 [AaronSw]
Oh dear... I can't find it.
04:30:34 [AaronSw]
That sucks.
04:31:50 [AaronSw]
Ahh, here it is.
04:31:55 [sbp]
who's this serious looking dude: http://blogspace.com/pictures/photo-view?photo_id=6344 ?
04:32:57 [AaronSw]
Oh, that's Robert Phelps.
04:33:28 [sbp]
*The* Robert Phelps?
04:33:56 [AaronSw]
Who's that? The one from Mission:Impossible?
04:34:30 [sbp]
nope, I guess not
04:34:38 [sbp]
anyway...
04:34:52 [sbp]
I'd better be teedling and toodling
04:35:00 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw updates metadata
04:35:05 [AaronSw]
Ah, well then
04:35:07 [sbp]
foodling and feedling, bobbling and boobling
04:35:18 [sbp]
and off I go
04:35:19 [AaronSw]
Heheh
04:35:20 [sbp]
c'ya!
04:35:42 [AaronSw]
bye
04:38:21 [sbp]
sbp has quit
04:44:51 [deltab]
hey, a 'befunge'-like typo: 'oruubt'
04:46:49 [AaronSw]
cpp;.
04:46:53 [AaronSw]
Oops, I meant cool.
04:47:10 [AaronSw]
I actually typed that, BTW -- not a joke.
04:58:33 [AaronSw]
--
04:58:43 [AaronSw]
I used to wonder why people hated Jury Duty so much. It seemed like an exciting way to spend a day -- I mean how often do you get to be part of a real trial? When would they pick me, I wondered.
05:01:09 [AaronSw]
--
05:01:14 [AaronSw]
Oh, I guess I forgot to type this...
05:01:34 [AaronSw]
this was the urban poetry:
05:02:33 [AaronSw]
"Only when the [last?] tree is dead the [last?] river dammed, [and?] the last field paved over will we realize we can't eat money."
05:17:24 [AaronSw]
--
06:58:44 [AaronSw]
AaronSw has changed the topic to: The Red Cross, the World Food Program, UN mine clearing operations. Has the US accidentally attacked _you_ yet?
06:59:31 [AaronSw]
AaronSw has changed the topic to: Red Cross, World Food Program, UN mine clearing. Has the US attacked you yet?
07:01:10 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw heads off
07:35:34 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw returns
07:38:46 [AaronSw]
bram on being a pundit: "don't be polite, and *especially* don't have a nice voice, pundits all have a whiny grating affect which makes you hate them even when they're just ordering dinner"
10:20:30 [deltab]
deltab has quit
10:21:03 [deltab]
deltab has joined #swhack
12:31:56 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw tries to wake up
12:51:58 [Morbus]
Morbus has joined #swhack
12:52:42 [AaronSw]
O'Reilly says some weird things... but then again, he started a company.
12:52:50 [Morbus]
heh. what'd he say?
12:53:08 [AaronSw]
"I guarantee you that ultimately, you can figure out how to get people to pay for it, because if you don't, you stop producing it."
12:53:23 [AaronSw]
Sort of weird for someone who's such a big advocate of open source.
12:53:34 [Morbus]
well...
12:53:52 [Morbus]
i think he's saying more "there's a will, there's a way", not "monet money money!"
12:54:21 [AaronSw]
Heheh.
12:54:38 [AaronSw]
Perhaps, but he seems to justify the will/way by threats.
12:55:52 [Morbus]
threats?
12:56:11 [AaronSw]
If you don't pay me, I'll stop producing it! So you better pay me!
12:56:34 [Morbus]
ooh. that's no different than shareware though.
12:56:43 [Morbus]
if you don't pay me, i'll nag you! naaaagggGGgg youu!
12:56:49 [AaronSw]
Hehe.
12:56:56 [AaronSw]
Imagine shareware stalkers.
12:57:01 [Morbus]
heheh...
12:57:06 [Morbus]
that'd actually be neeat.
12:57:16 [Morbus]
a freeware/shareware blacklist.
12:57:30 [Morbus]
"this person has used 7 pieces of software, six thousand days past their shareware date" <g>
12:57:34 [AaronSw]
People'd put out bounties on folks who had ridiculously large unpaid shareware things.
12:57:37 [Morbus]
"this person complains all the tim about free software".
12:58:41 [Morbus]
huh, neat.
12:58:53 [Morbus]
did you know, you can ship a 4meg qt driver file and have a qt app on windows?
12:59:38 [AaronSw]
No, I didn't. That sounds quite neat.
13:01:55 [Morbus]
yeah, i just saw it on a jabber app called psi.
13:02:06 [Morbus]
qt-mt300.dll
13:02:10 [Morbus]
that's it
13:02:42 [AaronSw]
Qt/Mac support too.
13:02:53 [Morbus]
really?
13:02:54 [Morbus]
where?
13:02:59 [Morbus]
classic/osx?
13:03:03 [AaronSw]
http://www.trolltech.com/products/qt/mac/index.html
13:04:03 [Morbus]
neat.
13:04:14 [Morbus]
apple contributed code to Tk too.
13:04:18 [Morbus]
it's in the cvs now.
13:04:37 [AaronSw]
woo!
13:05:06 [Morbus]
yeah, woo is right :)
13:05:25 [Morbus]
now just to get Perl/Tk, and i'd be happy. i think.
13:05:37 [Morbus]
i know in win, you can bundle tk into the .exe. dunno in mac.
13:19:49 [AaronSw]
OK, time to go.
13:19:53 [AaronSw]
c'ya later
13:19:59 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw heads off
13:55:10 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw returns
14:09:42 [Morbus]
* Morbus yawns.
14:11:36 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw waves from telecon...
14:11:45 [Morbus]
telecon?
14:11:53 [AaronSw]
RDF telecon
14:12:12 [Morbus]
RDF telecon? ;)
14:12:20 [AaronSw]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/ telecon
14:12:46 [AaronSw]
you know, where people get on a phone and argue about stuff
14:13:13 [Morbus]
oh. well, tell everyone that morbus doesn't think rdf is good code shuii.
14:13:14 [Morbus]
:)
14:14:15 [AaronSw]
You mean RDF/XML
14:14:24 [AaronSw]
s/You/If you/
14:14:24 [Morbus]
prolly. i still know nothng about it.
14:14:27 [AaronSw]
then I think everyone agrees with that
14:14:34 [AaronSw]
:)
14:29:12 [sbp]
sbp has joined #swhack
14:33:13 [Morbus]
'lo
14:34:29 [sbp]
'i
14:34:33 [sbp]
Gotta run
14:34:35 [sbp]
sbp has quit
14:45:31 [Morbus]
Morbus has left #swhack
14:57:00 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw heads off
15:07:03 [Morbus]
Morbus has joined #swhack
15:34:23 [Morbus]
[11:35] <garrettc> yeah... but today is a "randomly swap vowels" day
15:34:23 [Morbus]
[11:35] <Morbus> so barn in hall!
15:34:24 [Morbus]
[11:35] <garrettc> indoody
15:50:13 [sbp]
sbp has joined #swhack
15:50:24 [Morbus]
sbp, made a new game.
15:50:34 [Morbus]
check the last three messages before you joined ;)
15:50:37 [sbp]
Aaron, can you sort out the password for SWAG, please?
15:50:43 [Morbus]
well, i didn't make it, actually.
15:50:55 [sbp]
* sbp reads the logs
15:51:18 [sbp]
wuderfil!
15:51:28 [sbp]
ur, wunderfil
15:51:47 [sbp]
Eeran?
15:52:22 [sbp]
ew, fackut, U'll umial hum
15:54:14 [sbp]
Gotta run
15:57:15 [sbp]
sbp has quit
16:27:25 [Morbus]
Morbus has quit
16:48:22 [sbp]
sbp has joined #swhack
16:49:06 [sbp]
first version of the PySWAG-D: http://infomesh.net/2001/10/swag/
16:58:22 [sbp]
sbp has quit
17:34:13 [sbp]
sbp has joined #swhack
17:49:05 [sbp]
sbp has quit
17:50:53 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw returns
17:52:19 [AaronSw]
Ooh, that's nasty.
17:52:29 [AaronSw]
Network Solutions sent me some junk mail that pretended to be a bill for my domain name.
17:52:31 [AaronSw]
Even though they aren't my registrar.
17:52:41 [AaronSw]
In the fine print on the back it says by signing this you agree to transfer your domain to them.
17:52:51 [AaronSw]
Actually, it's not even Network Solutions -- it's Interland, Inc, a "Network Solutions Alliance Partner".
18:10:02 [Morbus]
Morbus has joined #swhack
18:10:43 [AaronSw]
Beware domain scams, Morbus.
18:11:46 [Morbus]
uh. ok. why?
18:13:32 [AaronSw]
I dunno.. I was just talking about this scam I got in the mail.
18:13:53 [Morbus]
oh. i get scams all the time. i get called about scams all the time. i get faxed scams at work. i'm like a sc[au]m master
18:14:38 [AaronSw]
Must be from people doing google searches on evil teletubbies.
18:14:44 [AaronSw]
They think, there's a guy who I should scame!
18:15:36 [AaronSw]
E-Chilipadi... boy company names are sure getting strange.
18:17:58 [deltab]
what about girl company names?
18:18:22 [Morbus]
girl company names? like menstruella?
18:18:32 [Morbus]
or E-MensTool?
18:18:36 [Morbus]
heh. i dunno.
18:18:48 [AaronSw]
Ohhhhkay....
18:19:01 [Morbus]
hey, i just got back from lunch ;)
18:30:40 [Morbus]
http://www.gpsdrawing.com/Gallery/belephant.htm
18:34:53 [AaronSw]
Heheh, that's awesome.
18:37:49 [Morbus]
i know. they have a whole crapload of them there.
18:47:00 [Morbus]
http://badastronomy.com/bad/tv/enterprise.html
18:47:14 [Morbus]
you know what i miss? i miss sound sets for the os.
18:47:25 [Morbus]
i used to use kaboom! back on 7.5 and sound'd everything.
18:47:27 [Morbus]
and now, nothing. its so depressing.
18:50:28 [AaronSw]
Aww.
18:50:39 [AaronSw]
I found it got really annoying... especially when music was playing.
18:50:51 [Morbus]
well, you just have to choose good tune.s
18:51:00 [AaronSw]
Some stuff was good so you could tell if you had hit your target or not, but now the blue highlights mostly communicate that.
18:51:02 [Morbus]
personally, i've been having a field day with dailywav.com
18:51:14 [AaronSw]
Yeah, I can just imagine soundsets atop Powepuff FM!
18:51:16 [AaronSw]
Heheh.
18:51:26 [Morbus]
hhehehe. i love powerpuff fm <g>
18:59:10 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw heads off
18:59:54 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw returns
19:00:05 [Morbus]
http://www.konstruktiv.net/kitty_02.html
19:01:17 [AaronSw]
Heheh.
19:11:41 [Morbus]
http://www.ilovebacon.com/jokes/040301b.shtml
19:16:27 [Morbus]
mac.scripting.com is a wonderful site. he's always finding good stuff.
19:19:05 [AaronSw]
Indeed.
19:23:26 [sbp]
sbp has joined #swhack
19:23:37 [AaronSw]
'lo
19:23:50 [Morbus]
'l
19:26:19 [sbp]
'i
19:27:38 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw loads "Abbey Road" -- stupid records are impossible to load and unload with just one person
19:28:24 [sbp]
* sbp has to work on EARL 1.0 - ugh
19:28:50 [sbp]
Aaron, some help on an EARL 1.0 API would be appreciated once it stablizes a bit
19:29:08 [sbp]
The way I'm thinking of modelling it is just not efficient, and I was wondering if you had any ideas
19:29:19 [AaronSw]
Sure, I'd be happy to help
19:29:22 [sbp]
perhaps you could build it on top of your perfect RDF API?
19:30:26 [AaronSw]
That'd be fun.
19:30:38 [AaronSw]
When you say API do you mean schema or Python code or what?
19:30:46 [sbp]
Python code
19:30:53 [AaronSw]
Hmm...
19:31:03 [AaronSw]
But we'd have to finish the API a bit more, I suppose.
19:31:30 [sbp]
I didn't even know you'd started it!
19:31:33 [sbp]
Just kidding...
19:31:51 [AaronSw]
heheh
19:34:17 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw tries to debug his record player
19:36:38 [AaronSw]
Ahh, that little grabby thingy slides backward!
19:41:43 [AaronSw]
tav on Afghanistan: "i just learnt that they are dropping fucking pop tarts and strawberry jam. wtf!?"
19:41:54 [Morbus]
bwahahaha.
19:42:03 [Morbus]
strawberry jam mixes nicely with minefield blood.
19:42:48 [Morbus]
should i soften the comment with a smiley?
19:43:22 [AaronSw]
Yeah, please -- before I throw up ;)
19:43:26 [Morbus]
heheheh.
19:43:28 [Morbus]
here it comes:
19:43:30 [Morbus]
:)~
19:43:35 [Morbus]
that's strawberry jam on my chin.
19:43:40 [Morbus]
or maybe blo... uh. nevermind.
19:44:11 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw notes that 2-year olds have a strange tendency to use HTML and large font sizes when sending b-day invites
19:44:24 [AaronSw]
must be something that's fixed in later developmental stages
19:44:36 [Morbus]
maybe size=+$age?
19:44:45 [AaronSw]
heheh
19:44:49 [AaronSw]
"1, 2,3, 4, 5, 6, 7; all good children go to heaven"
19:46:48 [AaronSw]
Heh, tav: """random thought: according to mythology and buffy the "gorgeous" vampire slayer... a cross will keep the blood sucking vamps away... however, it strikes me that of all people in history, jesus would be the most likely person to shreak and run for his life when he sees a cross..."""
19:47:02 [AaronSw]
Morbus, is it just me or ahve you been seeing weird window residues in OS X
19:47:14 [Morbus]
i haven't seen them no.
19:47:14 [AaronSw]
like small squares of a window will pop un places where there's no window
19:47:20 [AaronSw]
Odd.
19:47:23 [AaronSw]
I see a ton of them.
19:47:27 [Morbus]
i haven't seen them.
19:47:31 [Morbus]
odd.
19:49:49 [sbp]
Ugh, I run CWM, and it gives "RDFSink module not found"
19:50:12 [sbp]
if I "import RDFSink from whatever" it barfs on a different error
19:51:40 [sbp]
hello?
19:54:26 [Morbus]
i'm here. but you don;t want my help.
19:54:41 [sbp]
sbp has quit
19:58:09 [AaronSw]
Morby Morby Morby.
19:59:08 [Morbus]
wha?
19:59:13 [Morbus]
what'd i do now?
20:00:14 [AaronSw]
Oh, stop! You're just making it worse.
20:00:43 [Morbus]
um. ok. i will not atone for an unknown sin. i have so many of them.
20:00:44 [Morbus]
;)
20:01:47 [AaronSw]
:-)
20:07:23 [sbp]
sbp has joined #swhack
20:07:30 [AaronSw]
Why it's sbp!
20:07:47 [sbp]
I can't get llyn to work!
20:08:22 [AaronSw]
What's it do?
20:20:49 [Morbus]
Morbus has left #swhack
20:25:48 [wendy]
wendy has joined #swhack
20:26:01 [sbp]
Hi Wendy
20:26:34 [wendy]
hey sbp.
20:26:51 [AaronSw]
Wendy, now I have to warn you that this chatroom is for hacking, not cracking. So if you're looking for warez serialz for table deserializers, you'll have to go someplace else. ;)
20:27:02 [wendy]
lol thx for the warning.
20:27:15 [AaronSw]
AaronSw has quit
20:27:15 [sbp]
sbp has quit
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AaronSw has joined #swhack
20:28:18 [sbp]
sbp has joined #swhack
20:28:27 [wendy]
wow. where did everyone go? everyone kicked off rdfig at the same time.
20:28:36 [sbp]
soddit, they rebooted carter
20:28:38 [AaronSw]
Whoa...
20:28:52 [AaronSw]
Yeah... we get those table serialization d00ds here a lot.
20:29:42 [AaronSw]
netsplits are fun!
20:29:52 [AaronSw]
See. ot
20:29:52 [wendy]
sbp - i've got an outline of some stuff to say to UAWG on Monday. think it'll be better for a primer than for them...but thought you might be interested.
20:29:54 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/2001/10/22-earl-uaag/all.htm
20:29:54 [AaronSw]
It's never that fun when someone reboots a webserver.
20:29:59 [wendy]
still really rough, but a start.
20:31:00 [sbp]
* sbp goes through it... needs a break though
20:31:16 [wendy]
no worries. no hurry. just fyi.
20:31:20 [sbp]
http://www.w3.org/2001/10/22-earl-uaag/all.htm is member private at the moment
20:31:33 [sbp]
nope, I'll go through it whilst I'm on a roll :-)
20:31:36 [wendy]
thot you had member access...
20:31:56 [AaronSw]
He did... :)
20:32:26 [wendy]
raising too much hell again sbp? take away your privledges? :)
20:32:35 [sbp]
"{ :Page earl:passes :TestCase }"; I must modify the bookmarklet thing to reify the output rather than bunging it in a context
20:33:06 [sbp]
well, when WL said "that's it, I'm outta here", I sent that letter to patent-policy. But DanC saw it and got a bit weird
20:33:06 [wendy]
ah, it's a warning it is under member access. true. not ready to show the world yet.
20:33:27 [sbp]
I still have access though :-)
20:39:40 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw reads some Joe Clark while wendy is here ;)
20:40:44 [sbp]
heh
20:40:51 [wendy]
:)
20:42:41 [wendy]
what's joe got to say these days?
20:42:42 [sbp]
* sbp fixes the bookmarklet to reify
20:43:17 [AaronSw]
Joe Clark: "It became impossible to locate an accessibility tech editor sufficiently unaffiliated with the WAI; hiring anyone in tight with the Web Accessibility Initiative would be a clear conflict of interest and would simply invite trouble given that I contradict some of its advice. [...] To a certain degree, it would tip them off."
20:43:25 [AaronSw]
Heheh.
20:45:04 [wendy]
we are the <abbr pronounce='way'>wai</abbr> and the light. :)
20:45:54 [wendy]
although, some argue that sometimes it seems more like the <abbr pronounce='why'>wai</abbr>
20:46:02 [AaronSw]
Hehheh.
20:46:10 [sbp]
lol
20:47:14 [sbp]
* sbp continues to try to fix the bookmarklet, spots another bug
20:50:11 [Morbus]
Morbus has joined #swhack
20:51:08 [Morbus]
hey wendy. long time.
20:51:10 [sbp]
Hooray, it works now
20:51:52 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw tries to get rdfapi in usable shape for EARL
20:52:03 [Morbus]
EARL? is that the cousin of URL?
20:52:05 [Morbus]
* Morbus ducks.
20:52:23 [sbp]
* sbp tries to get EARL in usable shape for rdfapi
20:52:31 [AaronSw]
Duke, duke, duke, duke of URL, URL, URL
20:52:34 [Morbus]
hehehe.
20:53:12 [sbp]
ugh, *another* bug in the Bookmarklet; it's spitting out email addresses as literals
20:53:30 [wendy]
hey there.
20:54:07 [wendy]
brb. gotta make lunch.
20:54:41 [AaronSw]
Mmm, now you're making me hungry... can you get me something to eat too? ;)
20:55:11 [sbp]
neat: http://www.w3.org/2001/10/22-earl-uaag/end-to-end.svg
20:55:22 [sbp]
and me. Send it through the post :-)
20:55:40 [Morbus]
and i'll take a milkshake!
20:55:42 [Morbus]
who wants fries?
20:56:10 [wendy]
lol. here's today's menu: couscous w/veggies, vegan burger, and some deviled eggs. :)
20:56:30 [AaronSw]
Never mind then... :)
20:56:35 [Morbus]
ooh, deviled eggs sound good.
20:56:42 [Morbus]
vegan burger - frozen or handmade?
20:56:54 [wendy]
sbp: re: the svg. notice the link to EARL from the EARL arrow. want to link to some other stuff as well. perhaps discussion on test point langs, and whatnot.
20:57:02 [Morbus]
hey! svg. i know svg.
20:57:11 [wendy]
sbp. thx. will do.
20:57:20 [sbp]
oh man, that's another thread I need to follow up on
20:57:31 [wendy]
vegan burger - frozen. :\ although, i make a mean one from scratch.
20:57:38 [Morbus]
check it out - # Dedicated to all the companies who wait until a large user base becomes
20:57:38 [Morbus]
# dependant on their freeware, then shafting said happy campers with
20:57:45 [Morbus]
dammit. wrong clipboard.
20:57:50 [Morbus]
http://www.johnmunsch.com/projects/UberCard/
20:57:50 [AaronSw]
Heheh.
20:57:59 [Morbus]
i came up with the name. OOOh. :)
20:57:59 [sbp]
vegan burger: block of soy meat?
20:58:18 [Morbus]
wendy, next time i see ya (ummmm), i want a vegan burger.
20:58:26 [sbp]
heh, I'm not suprised you still have that thing on clipboard
20:58:38 [wendy]
eeks..burning. back in a bit.
20:58:39 [Morbus]
oh? why's that
20:58:42 [sbp]
I'd be even more suprised if you didn't already have it tatooed on your arm
20:58:43 [AaronSw]
UberCard: He's coverting all the magic cards to SVG?
20:58:46 [AaronSw]
Yikes.
20:58:51 [Morbus]
not just magic - ALL card games.
20:58:54 [Morbus]
xfiles, inwo, etc.
20:58:56 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw screams!
20:59:02 [sbp]
by hand?
20:59:03 [AaronSw]
My two brothers are card-game obsessives
20:59:03 [Morbus]
ubercard is a java app. i've got some design docs on my machine.
20:59:10 [Morbus]
its coming along nicely.
20:59:12 [AaronSw]
We have cards everywhere in the house
20:59:14 [sbp]
ah, not by hand
20:59:20 [Morbus]
basically, its a net playing card framework...
20:59:26 [AaronSw]
they play like every game, you can't escape them... it's scary
20:59:43 [Morbus]
he. they could play every game with ubercard - its really not going to handle any rules.
20:59:53 [Morbus]
its just gonna be a secure framework, playing area, card db, etc.
20:59:56 [sbp]
* sbp likes the thing that is at http://www.w3.org/2001/10/22-earl-uaag/all.htm whatever it is
21:00:37 [AaronSw]
What kind of a prefix is @prefix : <#g_10_17_2001123405AM> .
21:00:57 [sbp]
it's a stupid crappy hacky prefix.
21:00:59 [AaronSw]
Pahpfft
21:01:14 [sbp]
suggest something better
21:01:26 [AaronSw]
Why do you need it?
21:01:40 [AaronSw]
I suggest time.time() instead
21:01:41 [sbp]
for the IDs. Oh, I could use anon nodes, I guess
21:01:59 [Morbus]
md5 md5!
21:02:03 [AaronSw]
Yeah, that is what they're designed for.
21:03:19 [sbp]
* sbp updates
21:03:42 [sbp]
there we go
21:03:58 [AaronSw]
I hope you used _:a instead of [].
21:05:07 [sbp]
of course!!!
21:05:37 [AaronSw]
Whew.
21:05:50 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw wipes sweat from forehead.
21:05:57 [Morbus]
bah. kuroshin's been down all day.
21:06:03 [sbp]
[[[
21:06:04 [sbp]
@prefix earl: <http://www.w3.org/2001/03/earl/0.95#> .
21:06:05 [sbp]
@prefix rdf: <http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#> .
21:06:05 [sbp]
@prefix dc: <http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/> .
21:06:05 [sbp]
_:Person earl:asserts
21:06:05 [sbp]
[ rdf:subject _:Page;
21:06:06 [sbp]
rdf:predicate earl:passes;
21:06:08 [sbp]
rdf:object _:TestCase ] .
21:06:11 [sbp]
[...]
21:06:12 [sbp]
]]]
21:06:25 [Morbus]
what's the [[[]]]] thing do? i see sean using it all the time.
21:06:53 [sbp]
it delimits the quote
21:07:27 [AaronSw]
I prefer """"""
21:08:04 [sbp]
TS
21:08:26 [sbp]
right, I think this bookmarklet is swinging now
21:09:13 [sbp]
yeah, that
21:09:16 [sbp]
that'll do
21:09:44 [sbp]
not bad for a c.1KB hack
21:09:57 [AaronSw]
Too bad Python doesn't have sets...
21:10:10 [sbp]
sets?
21:10:18 [AaronSw]
Yeah, you know, like Set Theory.
21:10:23 [sbp]
oh
21:10:27 [AaronSw]
Where duplicates collapse
21:10:32 [AaronSw]
and order doesn't matter
21:10:36 [sbp]
you could make one
21:10:41 [sbp]
class Set:
21:10:50 [sbp]
that'll be your task
21:11:01 [AaronSw]
Yeah, but you'd want an iterator... but not an indexer
21:11:07 [AaronSw]
I think it needs Python 2.2 or whatever
21:11:08 [sbp]
@@TODO AaronSw make a Set class
21:11:15 [sbp]
write to them
21:11:26 [AaronSw]
Pah! I'll just use lists, thank-you-very-much
21:11:37 [AaronSw]
Hmm, dicts are sorta like sets...
21:14:37 [wendy]
sbp: you suggested changing { :Page earl:passes :TestCase } .
21:14:39 [wendy]
to
21:14:45 [wendy]
[ rdf:subject :Page; rdf:predicate earl:passes; rdf:object :TestCase ]
21:14:52 [sbp]
yep
21:15:15 [wendy]
hmmm. could you explain why?
21:15:39 [sbp]
contexts are kinda special to CWM, and I'd hoped they'd catch on by now. But people are still just discussing away, and reification is here to stay. Ooh, that rhymes
21:16:14 [sbp]
actually, they just discussed it today on RDF IG
21:16:29 [sbp]
Seth asked Tim if a context with one statment as a member is equivalent to a statement ID
21:16:47 [sbp]
Tim said he stays out of those sort of arguements :-)
21:17:03 [sbp]
so reifying might be better
21:17:16 [wendy]
when you say "I'd hoped they'd catch on" who is they?
21:17:25 [wendy]
people other than those creating CWM?
21:17:32 [wendy]
you want others to use contexts?
21:18:16 [sbp]
they: the world and it
21:18:19 [sbp]
and it's dog
21:18:27 [wendy]
:)
21:18:32 [sbp]
we're even discussing it now in #rdfig!
21:20:58 [wendy]
so i see...
21:21:01 [Morbus]
how does a ready fig differ from a strawberrt fig?
21:21:59 [sbp]
I don't know, how does a ready fig differ from a strawberry fig?
21:22:19 [Morbus]
* Morbus shivers - the balls back in his court!
21:22:25 [wendy]
sbp - i've made the change. want to take a look?
21:22:26 [sbp]
:-)
21:22:57 [sbp]
s/"<mailto:wendy@w3.org">mailto:wendy@w3.org>"/<mailto:wendy@w3.org>/
21:23:16 [sbp]
er... and then you could do what Aaron suggested and take out the ID thingy
21:23:38 [AaronSw]
Why don't you just run the page thru the script again?
21:24:04 [sbp]
yeah, I fixed the script so that it outputs decent data this time
21:24:10 [wendy]
i will...but i'm trying to understand what's going through sbp's mind as he's making these changes to the script. :)
21:24:29 [sbp]
I'm thinking, "ugh, why on earth did I do that like that?"
21:24:33 [wendy]
lol
21:24:42 [sbp]
the old thing was clearly, clearly rushed
21:24:49 [sbp]
it was
21:24:57 [sbp]
it wasn't even completed
21:25:03 [wendy]
so, when are you going to write an EARL validator? :)
21:25:13 [sbp]
it only implemented "earl:pass" :-)
21:25:30 [sbp]
EARL Validator: there are two different approaches I could take
21:25:31 [Morbus]
Morbus has quit
21:25:53 [sbp]
1) Play about with CWM/Llyn
21:26:01 [sbp]
2) Beg Aaron to work on his RDF API
21:26:08 [AaronSw]
Already on it!
21:26:15 [sbp]
problem solved
21:26:17 [AaronSw]
Running the unit test now...
21:26:40 [sbp]
ideally, we
21:27:00 [sbp]
we're looking for a CGI form whereby one can paste in a URI, and have it "validate" the EARL
21:27:16 [sbp]
in as much as one can validate an RDF Model. Really, you just check it for consistency
21:28:02 [sbp]
which CWM is good at. Perhaps I'll try that approach too
21:28:06 [sbp]
but I'
21:28:12 [sbp]
aaaaaaargh, damn ' key
21:28:19 [wendy]
hmm. i thought it was the syntax we wanted to validate, not the model. am i confusing things?
21:28:41 [sbp]
but I'm a bit saddened by the whole state of EARL at the moment: test case work messing things up, etc.
21:28:50 [sbp]
syntax: just use the RDF Validator for that
21:29:33 [wendy]
it's generating earl:date instead of dc:date, i thought we'd decided to stay w/dc date.
21:29:44 [sbp]
with a model validator, you want to check that people are not doing _:Checkpoint earl:passes _:Page . or anything silly like that
21:29:53 [sbp]
no way! dc:date isn't even datatyped
21:29:56 [AaronSw]
At least it's not earl:date [ dc:date "..."]
21:30:15 [sbp]
and it doesn't have the magical quality that we give earl:date and earl:version
21:30:27 [AaronSw]
Ooh, that specail sbp goodness?
21:30:28 [wendy]
magical. :)
21:30:28 [sbp]
yeah, earl:date [ dc:date _:y ] . was conufsing
21:30:41 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw shuts up and goes back to trying to pass his unit tests
21:30:50 [wendy]
ah.
21:30:53 [sbp]
yeah, we say that something's unambiguous when it has a URI and an EARL date hanging off of it
21:31:08 [sbp]
if we used DC date, I don't think that we could say that
21:31:36 [wendy]
hmm. the other day you said s/earl:suite/earl:id. but this uses earl:suite.
21:31:46 [wendy]
or am i switching them?
21:31:46 [sbp]
oh, feck
21:32:35 [sbp]
see, this is what happens when you don't take time to build something carefully :-)
21:32:37 [sbp]
* sbp updates
21:32:58 [wendy]
:) no worries, it makes me feel like i'm contributing.
21:33:09 [sbp]
you're the chair!
21:33:15 [sbp]
I'm not even sure what earl:suite does anymore
21:33:34 [sbp]
I mean, it's meant to link to a set of conformance criteria
21:33:41 [sbp]
e.g. all of WCAG 1.0
21:33:51 [wendy]
chair: true, but i understand this about 1/2 as well as you do! eeeks! you've done all the work! :)
21:34:20 [sbp]
but perhaps it would be better to link it to a URI/bNode, and then link all of the IDs off of that. Sort of like the machine readable version of WCAG that I drafted up
21:34:28 [wendy]
yes, linking to all of wcag 1.0 could be called a suite, but it's an id. not sure we need to distinguish...
21:34:34 [wendy]
although some of the recent thread gets into that.
21:34:49 [sbp]
well, you understand the scenarios and the practice of the thing way better than I do
21:34:54 [wendy]
if you want to make a less granular claim you could...but i'm not sure how it would change how it gets processed.
21:35:08 [sbp]
well, when processing, you need to be explicit
21:35:27 [sbp]
it's not enough to be fuzzy to any degree, you have to state things in incredibly pedantic detail
21:35:34 [sbp]
which is probably why I like it :-)
21:35:53 [wendy]
yes, good to be pendantic. but, i'm trying to think of a scenario of how this would be processed differently.
21:35:54 [sbp]
so using WCAG as a kind of bag may seem good on the surface, but the processor won't know what's in the ba
21:36:08 [wendy]
yes - exactly - unless that bag is defined somewhere...
21:36:14 [wendy]
perhaps suite = WCAG 1.0
21:36:29 [wendy]
WCAG 1.0 is a bag for {set of checkpoint URIs}
21:36:32 [sbp]
and WCAG's annoying, because really it's a bag with three other bags in it, all of the different checkpoints, and you can have overlaps of the bags
21:36:40 [wendy]
actually- 3 bags. one for each level of conformance of wcag.
21:36:41 [sbp]
yep, that's how I wanted to model it
21:36:49 [wendy]
:) exactly.
21:36:53 [sbp]
:-)
21:37:29 [wendy]
ok. so in this instance i've used an id, but suite should be possible, as long as we have a way to define what is in the suite.
21:37:43 [wendy]
which, is basically just an rdf:bag.
21:38:09 [sbp]
DAML lists are considered "cooler"
21:38:26 [wendy]
I don't know anything about DAML, really...could you explain?
21:38:53 [sbp]
er... it's an ontology. so, it's a language which allows you to make other languages with astonishing detail
21:38:59 [sbp]
like a schema language
21:39:18 [sbp]
but it has other little knick knacks in it, like daml:Seq, or whatever it's called
21:39:28 [sbp]
we use DAML a little bit in the EARL schema
21:40:04 [sbp]
Wendy, could you bung the example through the bookmarklet again? there are a few other bugs in there that I've fixed but that aren't fixed in the example
21:40:16 [sbp]
apologies: I really should have fixed it *ages* ago
21:40:17 [wendy]
yes - that's the only bit of DAML i know is in the EARL schema.
21:40:32 [wendy]
* wendy retursn to the bookmarklet.
21:40:57 [sbp]
the schema is at http://www.daml.org/2001/03/daml+oil#
21:41:18 [sbp]
oh, and there's a really good walkthrough: http://www.daml.org/2001/03/daml+oil-walkthru
21:42:25 [sbp]
Any idea what we're going to do about the TPDL? I kinda decided all of a sudden that EARL walks a weird tightrope act between linking to a test case, putting up metadata for a test case, and actually defining the test case
21:42:59 [sbp]
Daniel's original properties had a list of test case stuff with a note to enumerate them out later, but we never did, and in the end we lost interest in that aspect and got rid of some of the properties
21:43:03 [wendy]
example fixed. thx.
21:43:15 [wendy]
yes, it is in an odd grey area.
21:43:19 [wendy]
Not sure what we'll do.
21:43:22 [sbp]
so we have a kind of semi-pointer/semi-metadata language for test cases in EARL
21:43:26 [wendy]
I expect it will end up in QA.
21:43:40 [sbp]
but the question is: what do we do for EARL?
21:43:40 [wendy]
BUT, i would like to iron out as much of that as possible before handing off.
21:43:47 [wendy]
right. yes.
21:44:09 [wendy]
What are your thoughts? Add back the properties that were stripped out?
21:44:47 [wendy]
incorporate parts of Chris/Josh's test case dtd?
21:45:00 [sbp]
well, if a TPDL lanuage exists at all, it will be separate from EARL. Well, IMO it should be separate from EARL. Even Al said it would be good as a Semantic WEb project, but I'm damned if I'm going to be able to work on that as well, what with another degree coming up and so forth, so the course for EARL looks a bit shaky
21:45:32 [wendy]
do you think more needs to be stripped from earl to remove the greyness?
21:45:40 [sbp]
well, the question is whther or not to standardize a TPDL, and then if so, how do we incorporate that into EARL assuming that it doesn't turn out as an RDF language, and if not, how EARL copes with the mess that will be created
21:45:51 [sbp]
I'm not sure if we need to remove stuff, or add it, or what
21:45:59 [sbp]
well... let me slow down a bit...
21:46:06 [wendy]
what was your reaction to Dimitris' post?
21:46:28 [wendy]
it seemed to me that he was saying the DOM TS ML was specific to DOM and not something to base other test suites on.
21:47:22 [sbp]
we have the pointer to the test case at the end of the statement. That's al;ways going to be there. The more sympathetic the test case is to EARL, the less mess we end up with in EARL itself. At a level of full compatability iwth EARL (i.e. if TPDL is an RDF language), we can just simply put the URI in the reified triple. THat would be the perfect, most wonderful solution that coyld happen, and we can all go for a drink and dance around the maypole
21:47:29 [sbp]
so we're faced with the alternatives...
21:47:42 [sbp]
yeah, I'm still digesting what Dimitris wrote
21:47:53 [wendy]
then there is the test case vs test distinction.
21:47:57 [wendy]
maypole :)
21:47:59 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw wonders what a TPDL is.
21:48:05 [sbp]
he said that if TPDL was standardized, that he'd try to move over to it, which I thought was really cool
21:48:14 [sbp]
TPDL - Test Point Definition Langauge
21:48:22 [wendy]
yes, he seems very open to finding an elegant solution.
21:48:26 [AaronSw]
Ah.
21:48:38 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw hits a problem in rdfapi and reads IRC logs to cope
21:48:56 [sbp]
but, that's a lot of work that somebody will have to do. The problem with the legant solution is that it takes work away from DOM TS and EARL (good), but heaps it all into a group that will have to be chartered to cope with it, surely
21:49:14 [sbp]
and it's going to be months, if not years, until a good TPDL is created
21:49:23 [wendy]
seems that it is NISTs job.
21:49:26 [wendy]
they are the experts.
21:49:32 [sbp]
and even then, it will probably end up being less than compatable with either EARL or DOM TS
21:49:43 [sbp]
yeah, but are NIST keeping an eye on EARL and the DOM TS?
21:49:46 [wendy]
* wendy wonders about large corps that do testing...they must have something...likely proprietary. :(
21:50:10 [wendy]
actually, NIST has participated some in DOM TS, but I think are drooling over QA participation.
21:50:20 [wendy]
thus, expect if it is to happen, it will be in QA.
21:50:21 [sbp]
If QA sat down and did it, it would benefit us. if someone else does it, we'll have even more of a headache, waiting for them to finish, and so forth
21:50:30 [wendy]
esp. w/DD as one of the leads.
21:50:45 [sbp]
yeah, absolutely
21:50:53 [wendy]
thus, you and i just need to join QA! help make it happen! :)
21:51:19 [sbp]
heh, with all the bundles of free time that we have, eh? :-)
21:51:24 [wendy]
i'm way psyched on all of this testing stuff. the F2F really jazzed me.
21:51:38 [wendy]
free time. :)
21:51:52 [AaronSw]
And the validator folks are joining QA too... it's getting quite popular it seems.
21:52:08 [wendy]
let me tell you about free time: on my way back from australia at the end of november, i will take the following patH:
21:52:14 [sbp]
the problem is, we've been working on EARL for ages and ages now, and with just one more turn of the wheel, it could be basically compltete. And now there's the problem of the TPDL, which could be a whole other process... aaargh! I just want to get EARL finished
21:52:15 [wendy]
melbourne, singapore, london, seattle.
21:52:28 [sbp]
heh, zig-zagging a bit there?
21:52:33 [wendy]
i'm going the wrong way around the world! 30+ hours!
21:52:56 [sbp]
Eek
21:52:57 [AaronSw]
That gives you 30 hours of free time! Whooopee. :)
21:53:01 [sbp]
Heh: Subject: Google Groups account verification misuses HTTP GET
21:53:13 [sbp]
from Gerald on www-archive@w3.org
21:53:19 [AaronSw]
That's Gerald for you.
21:53:34 [wendy]
finishing EARL: will it every be? :)
21:53:55 [wendy]
TSDL: it would be extremely cool, but it seems part of the second phase.
21:54:03 [wendy]
there's still tons of work to do for earl.
21:54:17 [sbp]
yeah, but TPDL should hav come first, and it's coming second!
21:54:18 [wendy]
most elegant solution includes TSDL, but earl at least makes current situation better.
21:54:27 [wendy]
hindsight is 20/20.
21:54:34 [sbp]
yeah, true
21:54:47 [wendy]
we should have thought about users as well as devs, but we focused on devs and now jim ley is upset.
21:54:52 [wendy]
ya live. ya learn.
21:55:00 [sbp]
ah, he'll get over it
21:55:11 [sbp]
and anyway, EARL 0.95 is unimplementable to devs right now
21:55:25 [wendy]
right. so will we. EARL came first, TPDL will come second. egg before chicken as it were, I guess.
21:55:43 [sbp]
yeah
21:56:02 [wendy]
yikes, unimplementable? missed ya there. what do you mean?
21:56:06 [sbp]
O.K., so I ask you: what do you want me to do now?
21:56:12 [sbp]
oh, O.K., hang on...
21:56:28 [sbp]
unimplementable: well, we're going to change it substantially, I hope
21:57:18 [sbp]
there are so many little bits which just bug the crap out of me that we could do with changing now. But then there is the resistance from Chaals, which is valuid, and goes something like "we've already learned a lot, we have a lot more to learn"
21:57:35 [sbp]
I had hoped that using RDF for all of this would soften the blow. But.. um... it hasn't really
21:57:54 [sbp]
well, it has. Just not as much as I would have hoped
21:58:15 [wendy]
the blow of what? implementability?
21:58:20 [sbp]
the 0.9 to 0.95 thing was really cool
21:58:27 [sbp]
the blow of version changes
21:58:32 [wendy]
ah. gotcha.
21:59:02 [sbp]
now, if we go to 1.0, we are in effect saying "this is done, go implement it"
21:59:26 [wendy]
what was nick's reaction?
21:59:32 [sbp]
TPDL is threatening, because it means we cannot conceivably come up with the above until we work out how it fits in with EARL
21:59:38 [sbp]
Nick's reaction to what?
21:59:53 [wendy]
possibly moving to 1.0 in the midst of implementing 0.95.
22:00:04 [sbp]
oh, I don't think I told him yet :-)
22:00:07 [wendy]
lol
22:00:22 [sbp]
and I should note that it's not that 0.95 is unimplementable... it's that 1.0 will be better
22:00:32 [wendy]
yes. gotcha.
22:00:37 [wendy]
ok, then. here's what i know:
22:00:45 [wendy]
1. we don't have a tpdl yet.
22:00:58 [wendy]
2. we want to make sure earl can jive w/tpdl once it exists.
22:01:06 [wendy]
3. but we need to go ahead w/earl.
22:01:15 [wendy]
therefore, i suggest that we anticipate earl 2.0.
22:01:25 [wendy]
earl 1.0 exists today w/out tpdl.
22:01:30 [wendy]
once tpdl exists, we modify earl.
22:01:51 [wendy]
only problem then is need to make sure all earl 1.0 data doesn't go stale
22:02:01 [wendy]
and that there is some sort of easy migration like from 0.9 to 0.95
22:02:01 [sbp]
* sbp sobs
22:02:19 [sbp]
0.9 to 0.95 was easy 'cause we just bugfixed it
22:02:37 [sbp]
1.0 to 2.0 will be scary
22:02:55 [wendy]
but not impossible?
22:03:14 [sbp]
as long as no data is added, no. it's not impossible
22:03:40 [wendy]
and, data is likely to be added in 2.0 to jive w/tpdl.
22:03:43 [wendy]
right?
22:03:52 [AaronSw]
You guys need to stop worrying -- it's not like your data has been frozen in 4000 set-top boxes across the country yet.
22:04:01 [sbp]
I'm not sure what TPDL is (it doesn't exist yet), so I can't say for sure
22:04:02 [wendy]
:)
22:04:07 [sbp]
:-)
22:04:26 [wendy]
how difficult would it be to come up with a skeleton of what tpdl might look like?
22:04:32 [wendy]
earl took a while since we were all learning.
22:04:41 [wendy]
tpdl might be easier since we've done some of this.
22:05:03 [wendy]
but, i still think tpdl is best owned by qa.
22:05:16 [sbp]
yes, I agree. You'd have to ask them, I guess
22:05:17 [wendy]
therefore, perhaps we try to get this on the qa agenda for their upcoming f2f?
22:05:38 [sbp]
oh, absolutely!
22:05:44 [wendy]
hmmm.
22:06:00 [wendy]
* wendy figures out how to fit in tpdl into w3.org/2001/10/22-earl-uaag/all.htm
22:06:19 [sbp]
let QA do it :-)
22:06:21 [wendy]
this was supposed to be my slideset for a presentation to the UA WG on monday, but i think it will be a more genearl resource.
22:06:35 [sbp]
it's a really good little page
22:06:45 [wendy]
well, but i think we can offer some wisdom to get them started.
22:06:51 [wendy]
we've been thinking about this for quite a while! :)
22:06:55 [wendy]
thx.
22:07:03 [sbp]
so, WCAG would have to create test point stuff. How do you feel about that?
22:07:18 [wendy]
we already are and we need to do it.
22:07:27 [wendy]
WCAG needs to be less ambiguous.
22:07:35 [wendy]
AERT was born b/c of the ambiguities.
22:07:45 [wendy]
it should have come from WCAG in the first place.
22:07:48 [sbp]
well, a TPDL would both help and hinder GL as much as ERT, right?
22:07:59 [wendy]
yes.
22:08:05 [sbp]
yep, I certainly agree with that
22:08:31 [wendy]
also would help UA WG as working on test suite for UAAG's CR.
22:08:36 [wendy]
and XAG's CR
22:08:44 [sbp]
perhaps I'll look in my mailbox, and someone will have sent me a specification for a decent TPDL langauge in RDF?
22:08:48 [sbp]
* sbp checks his mail
22:08:51 [wendy]
:)
22:08:59 [sbp]
nah, oh well
22:09:05 [sbp]
sorry, you were saying? :-)
22:09:21 [sbp]
XAG's CR... oh, man... dependencies!
22:09:32 [sbp]
we should have done TPDL first!
22:09:41 [wendy]
lol
22:09:49 [sbp]
no, seriously! EARL would have been just chaff then
22:09:53 [wendy]
hey, are you going to write your conformance review of RDF to XAG in EARL?
22:10:21 [sbp]
Oh man, I had blissfully repressed that ACTION item
22:10:54 [wendy]
I've got to create this tool to help WCAG folk create EARL for test files...i thought i'd first test it out
22:11:03 [wendy]
on you and charles to do the XAG reviews.
22:11:16 [sbp]
still, I took the easy one (N/A, N/A, N/A, N/A, N/A, fails, N/A, N/A), so that's good
22:11:23 [wendy]
:)
22:11:58 [wendy]
I haven't thought much about mine yet. I took XSLT. my new favorite language (other than EARL, of course. :)
22:12:42 [sbp]
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22:13:05 [sbp]
sbp has joined #swhack
22:13:23 [sbp]
grgppgrh
22:13:40 [sbp]
XSLT rocks
22:13:42 [sbp]
tool?
22:14:02 [sbp]
22:10:54 <wendy> I've got to create this tool to help WCAG folk create EARL [...]
22:14:16 [wendy]
yes. WART, basically.
22:14:20 [sbp]
ah
22:14:24 [sbp]
with CFM?
22:14:35 [wendy]
yes, although he's in grad school and swamped.
22:14:44 [wendy]
i'm likely to go it alone, primarily.
22:14:44 [sbp]
heh, heh
22:15:00 [wendy]
which will be fun. although i'm sure i'll be bugging you plenty.
22:15:06 [sbp]
bug ahead
22:15:12 [wendy]
thx
22:15:40 [sbp]
I think I should take up writing documentation
22:15:43 [wendy]
well, i'll write up some stuff on the tpdl and include it in this thing i'm working on.
22:15:48 [sbp]
actually, that's your decision
22:15:55 [sbp]
what should I do next for ERT?
22:16:09 [wendy]
well, hmmm.
22:16:24 [wendy]
i'm primarily concerned about what we are going to tell WCAG about using EARL on sites.
22:16:45 [wendy]
so, any help with that would be good.
22:17:05 [sbp]
just make something up! that's what I do
22:17:05 [wendy]
secondly, i'm still real interested in what bugs you about 0.95 and how you would move to 1.0.
22:17:20 [wendy]
that whole thing we discussed on monday.
22:17:32 [wendy]
:)
22:17:36 [sbp]
well, for a start: bug with 1.0: how do we make conformance claims about a whole site?
22:17:46 [wendy]
yes. that needs attention.
22:17:49 [sbp]
s/1.0/0.95
22:17:59 [wendy]
yes, that's how i read it :)
22:18:18 [sbp]
well, we could nick CWM's stuff for 0.95, or add something specialized to EARL 1.0
22:18:30 [sbp]
s/or/and\/or/
22:18:40 [AaronSw]
Woooo! Test cases pass for rdfapi!
22:18:46 [sbp]
[[[
22:18:46 [sbp]
It could be, for example:-
22:18:46 [sbp]
_:a earl:testSubject _:b .
22:18:46 [sbp]
_:b log:uri [ log:startsWith "http://example.org/" ] .
22:18:46 [sbp]
It may turn out that we add some terms in the EARL 1.0 vocabulary to offer
22:18:47 [sbp]
a "standardized solution" for this.
22:18:49 [sbp]
]]]
22:18:53 [sbp]
Aaron: hooray!
22:19:06 [AaronSw]
There were a ton of bugs but it works! It really works!
22:19:15 [wendy]
rock on, aaron.
22:19:24 [sbp]
where'd it go, again?
22:19:37 [sbp]
* sbp should bookmark it
22:19:59 [AaronSw]
Let me upload...
22:20:22 [sbp]
ah, we could even say
22:20:53 [sbp]
_:x a earl:Site; earl:testSubject <http://example.org/> . # would that work?
22:21:03 [wendy]
sbp: what terms do you think we would need to add in EARL 1.0? "applies-across-domain" or "starts-at-base-uri" or stuff like that?
22:21:06 [sbp]
Aaron: would it be valid to say that?
22:21:26 [AaronSw]
It's well-formed RDF.
22:21:42 [AaronSw]
I'm not sure what you mean by valid...
22:21:43 [sbp]
yeah, we could add loads of stuff. I dunno why we were so conservative before: we should just add stuff 'till the schema explodes
22:21:51 [wendy]
lol
22:22:09 [sbp]
it doesn't matter if we add stuff and it's useless. It totally stuffs us if we don't add something and find we need it later on
22:22:22 [sbp]
valid: does it make sense?
22:22:49 [wendy]
* wendy considers how this would tie in w/html...
22:22:53 [sbp]
for example... if I wanted to use a single page as a test case, I'd do... oh actually no, I don't think it does make sense
22:23:13 [sbp]
tie in with HTML?
22:23:22 [wendy]
well...
22:23:35 [wendy]
lots of straws here... HTML base element...
22:23:45 [sbp]
unless we created a new disjoint class. Ooh, that might work
22:23:55 [AaronSw]
OK, it's at: http://blogspace.com/rdf/rdfapi.txt
22:23:58 [sbp]
HTML base element?
22:24:01 [AaronSw]
and http://blogspace.com/rdf/rdfapi-tests.txt
22:24:27 [wendy]
hmm. no nothing there.
22:25:12 [wendy]
there are two pieces that we need to look at here on out:
22:25:18 [wendy]
1. how the earl is structured
22:25:26 [wendy]
2. how the html references it
22:25:34 [wendy]
keep in mind the following scenario:
22:26:02 [wendy]
search engine ferrets out a set of pages that seem to fit the user's query then prioritizes them based on EARL.
22:26:14 [wendy]
based on EARL compared to user preferences.
22:26:24 [wendy]
hmmm. wonder if that means we would be keeping user preferences in EARL?
22:27:03 [wendy]
or rather what is the earl model (rather than how structured)
22:27:24 [sbp]
note to self: split :TestSubject up into smaller pairwise disjoint classes, restrict :testCase so that the domain is a union of those classes, spend ages telling people why I hacked it that way
22:28:02 [sbp]
Wendy: example user's query?
22:29:28 [wendy]
a user has uses a search engine (SE). SE knows that the user needs text equivalents (WCAG 1.0 cp 1.1)
22:29:50 [wendy]
SE searches database for user's query "rdf api tests" it finds several pages, but puts highest
22:30:02 [wendy]
priority on this one that claims it conforms to WCAG 1.0 cp 1.1
22:30:09 [wendy]
not the most compelling example...
22:30:40 [wendy]
the user could also say, "don't show me sites that don't make a claim, since they'll likely be useless to me."
22:30:44 [sbp]
ah, I get it now. No, you're right
22:31:15 [wendy]
about which part - user prefs in EARL?
22:31:53 [sbp]
er... the preferences file would be something like a filter in whatever you're using to process the EARL, which in this case in the SE. The filters would be in whatever query/inference language the SE implements, which is annoying... standardized inference language, please!
22:32:08 [sbp]
did I get that right?
22:33:45 [wendy]
sounds reasonable, although I don't know that much about SEs.
22:33:46 [sbp]
neither do I
22:33:59 [wendy]
know anyone who does?
22:34:10 [sbp]
Nick, perhaps?
22:34:24 [wendy]
worth a shot.
22:34:30 [wendy]
we ought to take this to the list for discussion.
22:34:35 [wendy]
it's been really helpful.
22:34:44 [wendy]
this is publicly archived somewhere, right?
22:34:49 [sbp]
IRC has actually been productive. That's a first
22:34:59 [sbp]
http://blogspace.com/swhack/chatlogs/2001-10-19.txt
22:35:30 [sbp]
* sbp searches for naughty words first
22:35:35 [wendy]
:)
22:35:44 [sbp]
Hmm... we only said "fuck" once between the five of us today
22:35:49 [sbp]
oh... twice
22:35:51 [wendy]
lol
22:36:01 [wendy]
how about i tailor it a bit and post it to the lsit? :)
22:36:01 [sbp]
:-)
22:36:09 [sbp]
Yeah, good idea :-)
22:36:20 [wendy]
ok. we'll see where that gets us.
22:36:32 [wendy]
well. that's been really good, but now i need a break. my brain and hands hurt.
22:36:33 [wendy]
:)
22:36:42 [sbp]
O.K. It's been nice chatting!
22:36:52 [wendy]
fer sure! thanks a lot sean.
22:36:58 [sbp]
you too
22:37:51 [AaronSw]
Oh great, now my domain will be censored! I better move this to another.
22:38:05 [AaronSw]
stupidpeopleswearing.com
22:38:12 [AaronSw]
:-)
22:38:42 [sbp]
well, you didn't lay out the ground rules...
22:38:52 [sbp]
you could grep and replace all of the logs!
22:38:53 [AaronSw]
Is swearing allowed on WAI lists?
22:39:04 [sbp]
you'll get a kick up the arse if you do
22:39:09 [AaronSw]
> As long as it's accessible!
22:39:15 [sbp]
heh, heh
22:43:13 [AaronSw]
Hm, 15 minutes till Shabbat.
22:43:23 [sbp]
Hmm...
22:47:08 [AaronSw]
Dylan is starting to grow on me.
22:48:02 [sbp]
great!
22:48:09 [sbp]
it does seem to take a while
22:48:29 [sbp]
what albums/periods are you running through?
22:48:47 [AaronSw]
Just the ones you gave me.
22:49:00 [AaronSw]
Hmm, RDF storage and query in 101 lines -- not bad!
22:49:05 [sbp]
ah. You should try getting entire albums and working through them that way
22:49:11 [sbp]
101: that is very very impressive
22:49:19 [AaronSw]
Feel free to mail the albums to me. :)
22:49:22 [sbp]
considering that CWM is about 10000001, and SWIPT is about 1001
22:49:27 [AaronSw]
Heheh.
22:49:56 [AaronSw]
I think I will leave this alone and move feature bloat to other modules ;)
22:50:10 [sbp]
heh, heh
22:50:20 [sbp]
do an EARL API thingy!
22:50:34 [AaronSw]
Well, first I need to do a parser...
22:50:40 [AaronSw]
Hey, could you do that for me?
22:50:46 [AaronSw]
Convert over your N-Triples parser?
22:51:18 [AaronSw]
And everything else you've ever written, sbp?
22:51:32 [AaronSw]
And the CWM RDF parser too...
22:51:32 [wendy]
re: editing log: i'm cleaning it up a bit. hope y'all don't mind.
22:51:53 [AaronSw]
That's OK -- feel free to write me out of history. :)
22:51:59 [sbp]
heh, heh, heh
22:52:08 [wendy]
lol. you're still there. you've got a nice cameo. :)
22:52:17 [AaronSw]
I'll be able to make more money off my tell-all book that wat.
22:52:19 [AaronSw]
err way.
22:52:23 [sbp]
I could convert SWIPT to your RDF API thing if you tell me how to do it
22:52:37 [AaronSw]
6 minutes -- what do you need to know?
22:52:37 [sbp]
oh no, not a tell all book! I'm gonna be screwed
22:52:55 [wendy]
here ya are http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-er-ig/2001Oct/0036.html
22:52:59 [AaronSw]
The test cases should give the jist of it.
22:53:02 [sbp]
6 minutes... well, I need for you to stabilize it first, and then I need to play about with it
22:53:18 [AaronSw]
I think it's reasonably stable... play about with it and tell me why it sucks
22:53:23 [AaronSw]
and we'll talk tomorrow night
22:53:36 [sbp]
will do :-)
22:53:49 [sbp]
Heh: "I've edited out
22:53:50 [sbp]
irrelevant bits.
22:53:50 [sbp]
"
22:54:00 [AaronSw]
What'd be left then?
22:54:04 [sbp]
lol
22:54:05 [AaronSw]
Hmm, I need to do a test with asserting stuff about a triple...
22:55:41 [AaronSw]
Cool, it even seems to work when I assert stuff about a triple.
22:55:50 [sbp]
great
22:58:18 [AaronSw]
OK, gotta run!
22:58:54 [sbp]
O.K., c'ya!
22:59:06 [sbp]
Have a nice Shabbat
22:59:10 [AaronSw]
thx
22:59:11 [AaronSw]
bye
22:59:15 [sbp]
er... if you're meant to :-)
22:59:16 [sbp]
bye
23:06:53 [wendy]
bye guys. see you again soon.
23:06:57 [wendy]
wendy has quit
23:07:57 [sbp]
c'ya
23:17:34 [sbp]
sbp has quit