IRC log of openacs on 2002-03-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

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13:48:43 [davb]
hi paje
13:48:43 [paje]
salut, davb
13:48:47 [davb]
hi Psychephylax
13:51:24 [Psychephylax]
Hey all
13:51:28 [Psychephylax]
hi paje :P
13:51:37 [Psychephylax]
Dumb bot :-/
14:12:45 [davb]
Psychephylax: what's up?
14:26:01 [Psychephylax]
Nothing much...just writing documentation
14:26:49 [davb]
ooohhh fun.
14:37:34 [Psychephylax]
Actually, according to my boss I am good at it
14:39:23 [davb]
great
14:39:25 [davb]
brb
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14:41:03 [jim]
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14:41:10 [davb]
hi jim
14:41:13 [jim]
hiya
14:41:37 [davb]
Wow, google is getting really personal. It keeps telling me I am brilliant!
14:41:58 [jim]
in a googly sort of way? :)
14:42:32 [davb]
no, it says right at the bottom, You are brilliant, we are hiring :)
14:43:25 [jim]
ok, seems my machine is more stable now... traced some instability to a bad 256mb ram card
14:44:06 [davb]
that is no fun. can you send it back for a new one?
14:44:13 [jim]
maybe
14:44:19 [davb]
good luck.
14:44:25 [davb]
I would hate to lose 256mb of ram.
14:44:57 [jim]
I have 2 others, I swapped with the one that was also in the machine (pulled it out to try testing stability)
14:45:11 [davb]
ah.
14:45:18 [jim]
one is untried/unused... might put that one in too
14:45:53 [jim]
there's not really a need tho, I'm not running oracle anymore
14:46:19 [davb]
right.
14:48:03 [jim]
you think we should still wait for k2pts? I'm still thinking the ideas are far enough apart to have different contracts
14:50:33 [davb]
which ideas... please refresh me :)
14:52:04 [jim]
he has this idea of having more than just delete-package-instance, so you can more finely granulate packages for the purpose of letting users (as opposed to coders) do more wrt composing packages...
14:52:28 [davb]
so there would be a package manipulation sc?
14:53:04 [davb]
he wrote acs-sc so I think is overlaps something he planned on doing with it :)
14:53:08 [jim]
my idea is to get delete-instance by itself in a separate contract, so we can add stable deletes to oacs
14:53:40 [davb]
right. What other sort of operations was he thinking of?
14:55:39 [jim]
on the one hand, delete is an operation that would operate on package instances, so to be more truely oop, one should include ops like mount-instance, unmount-instance, new-instance, set-instance-properties, get-instance-property
14:56:39 [jim]
on the other hand, delete-instance is needed -quickly- in order to ensure stability of installations
14:57:43 [davb]
right. Don didn't seem to concerned about it as a problem that would hold up a release.
14:58:27 [jim]
I keep vascelating on whether I agree with that...
14:58:39 [davb]
sure, but you are not in charge :)
14:58:50 [jim]
yes, I know that :)
14:59:13 [davb]
Could we get away with a check in the delete package code, that says, sorry can't do that because this instance contains objects.
14:59:24 [jim]
I really wish stability were a higher priority
14:59:33 [davb]
define stable...
14:59:35 [davb]
:)
14:59:43 [davb]
every link works would be nice.
14:59:47 [jim]
existing links always work
14:59:57 [davb]
have you seen the testing server? that is one of the tests.
15:00:19 [jim]
no, sure haven't...
15:00:21 [davb]
Problem is, we inherited a half-baked toolkit and it is over a year past due.
15:00:28 [davb]
let me find the link.
15:00:53 [davb]
http://213.107.207.131:8000
15:01:18 [davb]
you can register to look at the tests. you can volunteer (send email) to get write access to add tests or enter test data.
15:02:08 [davb]
does k2pts know all the operations he wants in this sc? We could set them up, but not worry about implementations until later.
15:03:28 [davb]
ie. if an implementation doesn't exist, use the existing code. that would be like a default implementation.
15:03:32 [jim]
is it possible to ask if part of a contract is implemented?
15:03:56 [davb]
yes, you can see if a certain implementation of an operation exists.
15:03:56 [jim]
is it possible to say, this contract includes that contract by reference?
15:04:14 [davb]
I am not sure what that means, so I can't say :)
15:10:08 [abbaJ]
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15:10:20 [jim]
looking at java, an interface can extend another interface...
15:12:08 [jim]
but I don't completely understand all the connections and terms used in sc, partly because many of them don't have equivalents in oacs
15:13:15 [jim]
or if they do, either they're not named the same or I didn't know about them up to now...
15:14:07 [jim]
I've read the docs a few times... btw, they say there are some examples... but I haven't seen them in the package's fiels
15:15:57 [jim]
I think until I have a stronger understanding of it, some of the things I say could be misinformed comments...
15:16:25 [k2pts]
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15:16:29 [k2pts]
hey jim
15:16:32 [jim]
heya
15:16:33 [k2pts]
seen the chatlogs
15:16:33 [paje]
I haven't seen 'the', k2pts
15:16:58 [k2pts]
I didn't have time to look at it very deeply, but here's what I suggest:
15:17:22 [jim]
I wanna know.... have you evah seen the rain?
15:17:28 [jim]
seen the-rain
15:17:28 [paje]
I haven't seen 'the-rain', jim
15:17:44 [k2pts]
implement the delete instance as you planned to and then we can incrementally improve it by specifying a more
15:17:59 [k2pts]
general contract that makes use of the "old" contract (delete_instance)
15:18:08 [k2pts]
part of the reason I suggest you do that is that
15:18:18 [k2pts]
dotLRN has something that's called an applet...
15:18:25 [jim]
so a contract can include another by reference?
15:18:32 [jim]
in that case, we can start
15:18:35 [k2pts]
you can do something that's similar to applets with package instances
15:18:47 [k2pts]
no (re: reference) but you can have
15:19:02 [k2pts]
a delete_instance operation that can be implemented for all contracts using the old one
15:19:06 [k2pts]
does that make sense?
15:19:25 [k2pts]
davb: are you around?
15:19:36 [jim]
so, you're saying have 2 contracts that are separate?
15:20:07 [k2pts]
they could easily merge. one of the greatest advantages with acs-sc is that you can incrementally improve the contracts without lost of generality
15:20:57 [k2pts]
you can also include more operations in the future
15:21:03 [k2pts]
in a contract
15:21:17 [k2pts]
does that make sense?
15:21:19 [jim]
so it's possible to extend a contract?
15:21:24 [jim]
I think so...
15:21:26 [k2pts]
"yes"
15:21:52 [jim]
lemme get some basic info since you're here...
15:21:59 [k2pts]
ok go ahead
15:22:12 [jim]
the docs say there are a pair of examples... where can I find those?
15:22:31 [k2pts]
check the search package and the openfts-driver
15:22:41 [k2pts]
the search package specifies two contracts, namely
15:22:41 [jim]
ok
15:22:51 [k2pts]
FtsEngineDriver, FtsContentProvider
15:23:13 [k2pts]
so openfts-driver includes an implementation for FtsEngineDriver
15:23:31 [k2pts]
also, the acs-content-repository package has an implementation for FtsContentProvider
15:23:52 [k2pts]
basically, a contract is a list of operations
15:23:59 [jim]
ok
15:24:01 [k2pts]
while an implementation is a binding of the operations of
15:24:09 [k2pts]
a contract with specific/actual functions
15:24:29 [k2pts]
the major advantage is that instead of calling openfts__search (for example) you call
15:24:32 [jim]
how do arguments get passed to contract operations?
15:24:56 [jim]
table that question...
15:24:57 [k2pts]
call FtsEngineDriver "openfts" ....
15:25:26 [k2pts]
jim: didn't understand the question
15:26:25 [jim]
I'm trying to get my head around how sc fits in generally
15:26:59 [k2pts]
it's a way to provide orthogonal support for integration...let me explain
15:27:10 [jim]
ok
15:27:12 [k2pts]
take a search engine as an example
15:27:50 [Psychephylax]
Google!
15:27:57 [Psychephylax]
:-D
15:28:06 [k2pts]
the search package could have been tightly integrated with openfts, instead the search package is implemented using calls to FtsEngineDriver and FtsContentProvider
15:28:38 [k2pts]
that way you can change your full-text search engine (htdig, swish, openfts) according to your needs...you need not implement a new search package for each one of these
15:28:46 [k2pts]
jim: does that make sense?
15:28:53 [jim]
yes...
15:28:58 [jim]
let me ask this:
15:29:21 [jim]
is it possible for more than one package to include an implementation of a particular contract?
15:29:33 [k2pts]
sure...that's the point exactly
15:29:45 [k2pts]
for example, dotlrn has something that's called an applet
15:29:53 [k2pts]
an applet is a contract specification
15:30:27 [k2pts]
there are several implementations of an applet (a portlet for instance is an applet)
15:30:52 [jim]
and not only do you implement the operations specified in the contract, you make a claim that the entire contract is implemented?
15:31:02 [k2pts]
in turn a portlet could be a contract in itself and then have bboard-portlet, file-storage-portlet, calendar-portlet, events-portlet...etc
15:31:18 [davb]
hi k2pts!
15:31:19 [k2pts]
yes that's one of the things that need be improved
15:31:21 [k2pts]
hey davb
15:31:33 [k2pts]
davb: I have a question for you. give me a moment
15:32:29 [k2pts]
jim: by improvements we could loosen the contstraing of having to implement the whole contract...you could have optional operations...
15:33:04 [k2pts]
davb: I think I missed one stylesheet when I send you the package and it's very important
15:33:28 [jim]
just as in java, if a class implements an interface, it does so not only by including all the methods in the interface, but also says "implements name" in the class header
15:33:42 [k2pts]
it's called to-10.xsl and it will automatically transform feeds from 0.9 or 0.91 (also tried it with 0.92) to 1.0
15:33:46 [k2pts]
jim: more or less yes
15:34:40 [jim]
k2pts: look at the instance_delete thing for a moment...
15:35:12 [k2pts]
but note that java isn't a message redirector (this is a powerfull pattern in a language) while acs-sc is a message redirector, you could implement everything on top of acs-sc and still have something that is as fast as before but more flexible...(this is what was done with dotlrn)...I mean you can change any part that is implemented with acs-sc at any point without any side-effects
15:35:33 [k2pts]
davb: still there?
15:35:33 [paje]
there are none.
15:35:35 [davb]
k2pts: ok. I need that stylesheet.
15:35:56 [k2pts]
ok, let me email it to you...I had to change something to work
15:36:01 [jim]
there would be an operation, instance_delete(package_instance_id)
15:36:26 [k2pts]
davb: one problem is that it works with xsltproc but not with ns_xml...I have to explain this for a minute
15:36:58 [jim]
and a contract that encloses it, let's call it InstanceOps
15:38:26 [jim]
with the idea being that eventually every package would implement this contract if it wanted to be able to delete a package instance, and specify how that would be done in a manner local to the package's data model...
15:39:08 [k2pts]
davb: sent...note that it will work if you specify an http address for the two stylesheets inside the import tags...I just needed to make it work with "file://">file://" instead...when I use "file://" instead of "http://" it works with xsltproc but not with ns_xml...I'm probably missing something, so I could use a pair of eyeballs on this one :)
15:40:11 [jim]
then in the sitemap, you'd have the unmounted applications link, which would lead you to the list of unmounted packages...
15:40:15 [davb]
k2pts: i think you are right. I had this problem with the stylesheets for chump. I think it is the way ns_xml implements the import.
15:40:52 [k2pts]
jim: right, you can have a contract named Package with only one operation initially, InstanceDelete. Then you can add more...
15:41:20 [k2pts]
when you need to delete a package instance...instead of calling bboard_delete_instance...you would call:
15:42:06 [k2pts]
Package bboard InstanceDelete
15:42:07 [k2pts]
that is
15:42:27 [k2pts]
acs_sc_call contract_name implementation_name operation arguments
15:43:31 [k2pts]
jim: still there?
15:43:31 [paje]
there are none.
15:43:42 [jim]
it would be useful if the type of instance to delete could be queried from the acs_object.object_type field...
15:44:21 [k2pts]
yes you 're right but...
15:44:24 [jim]
then you could say delete_instance(1234), it would look up 1234 to see if it's an instance, see what kind of instance, and dispatch
15:44:29 [k2pts]
packages doesn't use object_types
15:45:19 [k2pts]
so when your contract is package-specific (i.e., it uses package keys to select the implementation) you use the package keys...otherwise you use the object_type
15:45:35 [k2pts]
the two examples I have offered earlier demonstrate this...
15:45:38 [k2pts]
i.e.
15:46:02 [k2pts]
FtsEngineDriver distinguishes between its implementations using the package-key (e.g. openfts-driver)
15:46:03 [k2pts]
while
15:46:26 [k2pts]
FtsContentProvider is based on the object type (e.g. bboard_message, note, etc)
15:46:49 [jim]
can the package key be always gotten from the id of a package instance, according to the present data model?
15:47:13 [k2pts]
yes, this is what you should do...
15:47:47 [k2pts]
you will call the InstanceDelete(instance_id) but in order to select which implementation is the right one you should also use the package key
15:48:02 [k2pts]
for example, you have two packages
15:48:03 [k2pts]
bboard
15:48:06 [k2pts]
and notes
15:48:10 [jim]
ok
15:48:16 [k2pts]
you have the following instances for bboard:
15:48:18 [k2pts]
1234
15:48:22 [k2pts]
1235
15:48:24 [k2pts]
1236
15:48:30 [k2pts]
and the following for notes:
15:48:34 [k2pts]
9876
15:48:36 [k2pts]
9875
15:48:38 [k2pts]
9874
15:49:04 [k2pts]
you have a page that deletes an instance called iamthepage-for-deleting-an-instance.tcl
15:49:22 [k2pts]
inside that page, you'll have one call that looks like:
15:49:51 [k2pts]
find the package_key for this instance (using the instance_id)
15:49:56 [k2pts]
and then call:
15:50:29 [k2pts]
acs_sc_call "ApmPackage" $package_key InstanceDelete $instance_id
15:50:32 [k2pts]
more or less that's it
15:50:54 [k2pts]
does that make sense?
15:50:59 [jim]
yes...
15:51:02 [k2pts]
ok
15:51:06 [k2pts]
I have to head out
15:51:14 [jim]
ok...
15:51:14 [k2pts]
I have a cold these days...
15:51:19 [jim]
thanks;
15:51:38 [k2pts]
feel free to email me any questions...I'm a bit late answering mail these days but I hope I have your sympathy
15:51:43 [jim]
one sec...
15:51:44 [k2pts]
davb: we talk about rss soon...
15:51:46 [k2pts]
sure
15:52:19 [jim]
in your call, what is "ApmPackage"? is that something that exists now?
15:52:21 [davb]
k2pts:ok. I hope you feel better.
15:52:38 [jim]
yeah, meetoo
15:53:19 [k2pts]
jim: ApmPackage is the name of your contract (I assumed that that would be the name that you give to your contract)
15:53:41 [k2pts]
then you use $package_key to identify which implementation to use
15:53:53 [jim]
I might have two, since a Package is different from a PackageInstance
15:54:00 [k2pts]
and then call the implementation for InstanceDelete with argument $instance_id
15:54:15 [k2pts]
I don't think it's a good idea
15:54:24 [k2pts]
it's still one package
15:54:41 [k2pts]
you could have operations: InstanceDelete, TheWholePackageDelete
15:55:16 [k2pts]
does that make sense?
15:55:21 [jim]
PackageDelete would then iterate InstanceDelete, then take itself
15:55:37 [k2pts]
that's one way to do it
15:55:54 [k2pts]
or you could have an operation that needs to be implemented
15:56:15 [k2pts]
I mean write specific code as you do for instance delete
15:56:39 [k2pts]
inside your implementations
15:57:09 [k2pts]
ok, have to head out...we talk later guys
15:57:25 [k2pts]
my life is a mess past couple of months...I'm still trying to sort things out :)
15:57:41 [k2pts]
best wishes, l8r
15:57:47 [k2pts]
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15:58:14 [jim]
davb: so is that good enough to start planning?
16:00:45 [davb]
jim: package_key really is the name of the package. see apm_packages table. I have 6 different instances of edit-this-page. the package-key is always edit-this-page, but the package_name and package_id are different.
16:01:17 [jim]
I see...
16:01:35 [davb]
so that the example makes a little mroe sense.
16:02:44 [jim]
what would cement this together, is if I had the id of an instance, can I always get the package key, even if the package is not mounted anywhere?
16:03:24 [davb]
jim: I think for a wholePackageDelete you would directly call the procs you created for InstanceDelete instead of calling a service contract. it is perfectly ok for a package to have knowledge of its own internal representation.
16:03:27 [davb]
jim: yes.
16:04:07 [jim]
so we have the pieces...
16:04:33 [davb]
site_nodes is the table tha tkeeps track of what is mounted where.
16:07:06 [davb]
brb
16:07:34 [jim]
ok, would you think we should have two operations in the contract initially, one for packages, one for package instances?
16:07:39 [jim]
ok
16:12:46 [davb]
doesn't the drop script take care of totally removing a package?
16:13:06 [davb]
that works. if it doesn't we need to fix the drop scripts, so I think we can hold off on that.
16:15:10 [davb]
heh. over the the bboard, simon, the testing organizer suggests we just kill/drop all the _really_ bad packages.
16:15:28 [davb]
I pretty much agree. we can add them in one at a time as they are fixed or rewritten.
16:15:52 [davb]
the whole point of the package system is to allow independent development of packages to enhace the mostly stable core.
16:17:51 [jim]
which ones are bad/
16:17:52 [jim]
?
16:18:30 [davb]
not sure. I haven't used most of them.
16:18:33 [jim]
(wp-slim is much better with the patches for allowing html, for example)
16:18:54 [davb]
right. wp slim is poorly implemented, but actually does what it is supposed to do.
16:19:31 [davb]
it would be nice if its fixed to use the CR properly.
16:19:45 [davb]
maybe there aren't that many really bad ones.
16:19:47 [jim]
that's what your patches do tho, yes?
16:20:09 [jim]
well, I'm with you, I haven't used many of the packages....
16:20:21 [davb]
they just make it minimally work. the content_types, etc are all wrong if I remember correctly. or it could have been another package :)
16:21:39 [davb]
for example, wp0slim worked great by itself..until you install another package.
16:22:04 [davb]
* davb can't wait for dotlrn
16:22:25 [jim]
we worked to separate instances tho, yes?
16:22:29 [davb]
now I just need to sneak a linux box into work here.
16:22:36 [davb]
jim: yeah, it works fine now.
16:22:36 [jim]
heh :)
16:22:49 [davb]
not too hard, the IT guy has no problem with it.
16:23:16 [davb]
I figure I will get a demo running on my home machine and show them what it can do before asking for a linux server.
16:24:47 [rbm]
* rbm eyes davb's post to the aolserver list
16:25:04 [rbm]
morning btw
16:25:08 [davb]
hi rbm
16:25:20 [rbm]
hey davb
16:25:50 [jim]
heya rbm
16:25:53 [rbm]
I dreamt with my dad last night, now I'm all homesick
16:25:57 [davb]
we got out first virus last night! (on the new win2k server)
16:26:13 [jim]
maybe a visit is in order
16:26:21 [rbm]
jim: to my dad?
16:26:24 [jim]
yeah
16:26:46 [rbm]
He's a bit far, in Manaus, Brazil :)
16:26:51 [jim]
ahh
16:26:59 [rbm]
I would take the bus but it'd take a while to get there
16:59:29 [Psychephylax]
Hey Roberto
17:01:17 [rbm]
* rbm reads about the security breach
17:01:19 [rbm]
hey Psyche
17:05:29 [jim]
has anyone tried webmail?
17:05:42 [jim]
(well, lately? :)
17:06:20 [Psychephylax]
brb...need to reboot
17:06:28 [Psychephylax]
Psychephylax has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
17:18:44 [rbm]
jim: no
17:21:06 [davb]
I am waiting for shagster to write a new one :)
17:21:32 [rbm]
Ouch! I typed "/list" accidentally
17:21:37 [rbm]
paje: are you alive?
17:21:37 [paje]
no idea, rbm
17:21:43 [rbm]
paje: :)
17:21:43 [paje]
rbm: huh?
17:21:47 [rbm]
paje: botsnack
17:21:47 [paje]
:)
17:33:18 [davb]
wow. i didn't know this: "For Steve Ball, the "most significant advantage" of Tcl compared to other programming languages remains internationalization: "Tcl rocks when it comes to Unicode and handling/manipulating character encodings."
17:38:12 [rbm]
Who's steve ball?
17:38:46 [davb]
big XML in TCL guy.
17:39:37 [davb]
he wrote TclXML
17:39:39 [davb]
and TclDOM
17:39:39 [rbm]
okay
17:39:55 [davb]
I was trying to get him involved with OpenACS :)
17:40:00 [rbm]
and?
17:40:15 [davb]
he said it was in the future, but I haven't heard anything in awhile.
17:40:32 [davb]
apparently he has paying clients, so is too busy to take on any more projects.
17:40:54 [davb]
I should learn C.
17:41:13 [rbm]
grab the white bible
17:42:01 [davb]
The C Programming Language?
17:42:10 [davb]
its on my list :)
17:43:49 [jim]
also grab a primer and "The C Companion" by Holub
17:44:12 [jim]
the latter is an advanced adjunct to a primer
17:44:19 [davb]
I was going to get the C Primer Plus. highly rated at amazon.
17:44:26 [rbm]
I have a lot of stuff in my TOLEARN list. Too bad school doesn't leave me much time to actually learn useful things
17:44:35 [jim]
that's a good primer
17:45:27 [davb]
hopefully I will start school learning useful things RSN.
17:45:31 [davb]
cool.
17:45:36 [rbm]
davb: Got a URL? I have a $25 gift certificate at Amazon I could use
17:45:42 [rbm]
davb: RSN?
17:45:43 [davb]
sure...
17:45:46 [davb]
Real Soon Now
17:45:56 [jim]
* jim played a little with oacs-4.5's cms... nothing crashed!
17:46:24 [davb]
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672322226/qid=1017337572/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_67_3/103-0202080-3978231
17:46:24 [oacs-chump]
A: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672322226/qid=1017337572/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_67_3/103-0202080-3978231 from davb
17:46:30 [davb]
A:|C Primer Plus
17:46:30 [oacs-chump]
titled item A
17:46:35 [davb]
A: there is also a C++ version
17:46:35 [oacs-chump]
commented item A
17:46:43 [davb]
jim: excellent.
17:47:16 [davb]
and your head didn't explode? that is an overly complex interface. it exposes all the nasty bits underneath.
17:48:16 [davb]
jim: do you have an author on the C Companion? I can't seem to find it.
17:48:24 [rbm]
Why are people saying "an easy to read introduction to C++" for a C bok?
17:48:27 [rbm]
s/bok/book/
17:48:49 [jim]
Allan I. Holub
17:49:41 [davb]
I think amazon is broken. those reviews belong to the C++ version. it incorrectly links those as different editions of the same book.
17:49:51 [davb]
you can preview it over at safari.oreilly.com
17:50:06 [davb]
how can a 400 page book, be a "pocket" book?
17:50:09 [rbm]
preview what?
17:50:14 [jim]
http://www.holub.com/aihbooks.html
17:50:14 [oacs-chump]
B: http://www.holub.com/aihbooks.html from jim
17:50:35 [jim]
B:|Books written by Allen Holub
17:50:35 [oacs-chump]
titled item B
17:51:02 [davb]
damn, its out of print.
17:51:29 [davb]
I can get it new or used from amazon "marketplace" though
17:51:41 [jim]
how much is it?
17:51:56 [davb]
$30 new, $20 or so used.
17:52:39 [jim]
I bought his "Compiler Design in C"...
17:52:51 [rbm]
960 pages@?!?!?!1
17:52:57 [rbm]
* rbm goes out for a bit
17:53:31 [davb]
I like this title better: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070296898/qid=1017337841/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/103-0202080-3978231
17:53:57 [davb]
ouch, the C primer is HUGE
18:01:32 [davb]
bbl- lunch
18:21:47 [davb]
ok i'm back.
18:34:07 [hazmat]
hazmat (~ender@adsl-66-123-57-58.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) has joined #openacs
18:41:36 [davb]
hi hazmat
18:47:36 [hazmat]
ola
20:00:42 [denshi]
denshi (~chatzilla@adsl-216-62-223-193.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) has joined #openacs
20:01:08 [denshi]
hello, evil peoples.
20:01:24 [rbm]
evil?
20:01:40 [denshi]
evil is a dignified profession, rbm.
20:02:13 [davb]
hi denshi
20:02:34 [denshi]
hello mr b.
20:02:53 [rbm]
denshi: oh
20:05:12 [denshi]
so is anyone actually doing something productive today?
20:06:48 [davb]
nope.
20:07:18 [davb]
* davb checks out the competition
20:08:28 [denshi]
I've given up hope on finding employ in the tech industry again.
20:08:38 [denshi]
now I'm looking to go into professional evil.
20:09:00 [davb]
concentrated or unconentrated?
20:09:22 [denshi]
dunno... it seems to be a 'who you know' kind of field.
20:09:40 [davb]
you know, the Z*PE web site has lot of links to stuff people are working on.
20:10:01 [davb]
we need some pages where people can enter what kind of projects they are working on and get organized to build new packages etc...
20:10:09 [davb]
hopefully openacs.org 4.5...
20:10:42 [davb]
actually mostly talking, not alot of actual code...
20:11:52 [davb]
ie. online education. links to a couple of implemented sites, but not any actual code projects I can see.
20:11:52 [denshi]
you know, that would take 30 seconds of an admin's time: just a static page with general-comments enabled.
20:12:16 [davb]
yes.
20:12:21 [davb]
or ETP
20:12:26 [davb]
but don't tell talli.
20:15:19 [rbm]
davb: I wholeheartedly agree
20:19:35 [markd2]
markd2 (~markd2@166.102.41.109) has joined #openacs
20:19:45 [markd2]
hi paje
20:23:09 [davb]
rbm: cool
20:23:16 [davb]
I am just impatient :)
20:23:49 [davb]
I was looking at Zope in case I can't sneak linux in here to see what me other options were that will run on windows.
20:29:02 [jim]
can openacs-4.5 run under win?
20:29:20 [jim]
howbout under apache+mod_aolserver?
20:31:24 [davb]
I don't think it iwll run under apache+mod_aolserver
20:31:34 [davb]
it doesn't do enough.
20:31:48 [davb]
i think it would be easier to run AOLserver under cygwin
20:36:42 [rbm]
davb: I need to try compiling AOLserver under cygwin
20:37:17 [davb]
I need to wait until I get a win2k box I can play with.
20:46:27 [denshi]
http://www.lrc.state.ky.us/2002rsrecord/hr256.htm
20:46:27 [oacs-chump]
C: http://www.lrc.state.ky.us/2002rsrecord/hr256.htm from denshi
20:47:05 [denshi]
C: Kentucky HR256: "Encourage the purchase of a submarine to patrol the waters of the Commonwealth and search and destroy all casino riverboats."
20:47:05 [oacs-chump]
commented item C
20:48:32 [denshi]
jim: are there some nsd modules that are used by openacs4.5 that don't compile natively on windows? libxml, notably?
20:49:04 [rbm]
denshi: they should compile under cygwin.
20:49:19 [denshi]
yeah, but cygwin's a performance hit.
20:49:28 [rbm]
I think libxml is part of cygwin isn't it?
20:49:35 [rbm]
denshi: Have you measured?
20:49:35 [jim]
I don't know for sure...
20:50:08 [rbm]
I don't know if the performance hit is really significant.
20:50:09 [denshi]
I haven't tried libxml. just traditionally, cygwin binaries aren't as fast as native ones.
20:50:18 [rbm]
denshi: Again, have you measured?
20:51:41 [rbm]
Maintaining a windows version of an application may be much more expensive than the alledged performance hit.
20:51:44 [rbm]
if doable at all
20:54:44 [denshi]
take a gander at all those #ifdefs in the nsd source. it's not impossible.
20:55:12 [jim]
denshi: maybe the modules you mentioned will compile/run under windows... but I'm still curious if oacs-4.5 would work using apache and mod_aolserver, even under linux
20:56:13 [hazmat]
i thought petru was going to maintain mod_aolserver?
20:56:33 [hazmat]
that was a while ago though...
21:00:19 [denshi]
jim: I think it is a safe bet that no, mod_aolserver doesn't have the new stuff that oacs4.5 needs.
21:00:49 [davb]
I think ns_xml 2 has stuff so it will compile under windows...
21:01:16 [davb]
yep, it seems to.
21:01:49 [davb]
I have to see if the guy who wrote it will release the code so we can finish it up. ns_xml 2 has alot of nice new commands for xml.
21:02:49 [denshi]
jim: http://openacs.org/doc/openacs-4/win2k-installation.html
21:02:49 [davb]
also aolserver 4.0 has removed all win32 code.
21:02:51 [denshi]
give it a whirl.
21:03:03 [davb]
cool. I will try that.
21:03:23 [jim]
meaning it won't run under win32?
21:04:08 [davb]
jim: right. although I think someone was working on fixing it so it will work...
21:04:32 [davb]
aha
21:04:34 [davb]
http://acs-misc.sourceforge.net/ns_rel_beta2.html
21:04:51 [davb]
binaries of aolserver 4 early beta code for windows
21:05:03 [davb]
cool. comes with nsxml.
21:05:14 [davb]
and all the other modules needed for aolserver.
21:05:57 [davb]
so it must be possible to make it work.
21:08:44 [davb]
cool its running!
21:09:23 [davb]
spiffy. in win98 no less.
21:13:50 [jim]
license the same?
21:14:33 [davb]
sure, its just aolserver compiled.
21:14:41 [davb]
he can't unGPL it :)
21:15:18 [jim]
well, meaning for the new version
21:15:55 [davb]
oh, afaik its the same.
21:16:34 [davb]
darn, it crashed.
21:16:43 [davb]
have to get a little bit better OS anyway...
21:20:27 [davb]
bbl
21:20:30 [davb]
davb has quit ()
21:41:58 [markd2]
markd2 has quit ("Wheeeeee")
22:31:58 [shagster]
lalal
22:32:41 [til]
shalalalala
22:33:20 [shagster]
beeppie do-wha!
22:34:50 [rbm]
denshi: I wasn't talking especifically about AOLserver when I said "if doable at all". I've looked at the nsd sources and all those horrible #ifdef's are the reason why win32 support was dropped in AOLserver 4
22:37:46 [shagster]
Hey, anybody know if there is a current aolserver debian maintainer?
22:38:21 [jim]
shagster: it's probably orphaned by now
22:38:52 [rbm]
shagster: I plan to take over that package
22:39:06 [rbm]
shagster: and make new packages for AOLserver modules (nsxml, etc.)
22:39:21 [rbm]
In fact, I plan to package everything necessary to run OpenACS 4
22:39:24 [shagster]
Ahh, okay. I just sent a message to the old maintainer ask if anybody was and if not, I would :)
22:39:44 [shagster]
rbm: I was going to start looking at that this weekend
22:39:59 [shagster]
Once I learn how to make a .deb package :)
22:40:27 [shagster]
So I guess I'm saying, need some help?
22:40:28 [rbm]
jim: BTW, I made my first ITP today
22:40:38 [rbm]
shagster: Help's always welcome
22:40:40 [jim]
you did? :)
22:40:55 [jim]
I'm not on debian-devel mailing list right now
22:40:58 [rbm]
Anybody know of a good gui builder for Python? Any toolkit
22:41:12 [rbm]
doesn't matter much if it's non-free. I just need something that works well.
22:41:24 [jim]
shagster: you know where the readings are?
22:41:36 [shagster]
the readings? nope
22:41:40 [rbm]
jim: Yes, let me grab the url for you
22:42:22 [jim]
shagster: www.debian.org/devel/ has lots of links
22:42:43 [shagster]
Okay, thanks.
22:43:02 [jim]
rbm: the url of your package page?
22:43:26 [jim]
yeah, I'll take a look at that :)
22:43:32 [shagster]
I'm going to start building (or linking) to AOLserver/OpenACS packages this weekend and needed the deb info
22:43:53 [rbm]
shagster: ??
22:44:14 [shagster]
that is me
22:44:31 [denshi]
denshi has quit ()
22:44:59 [rbm]
jim: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=140371
22:46:17 [rbm]
shagster: I don't understand what you meant by your last phrase
22:46:45 [jim]
shagster: it might be nice to comb out all the modules into each their own package
22:46:54 [shagster]
Sorry, I was just trying to find out information about debian packages for AOLserver
22:47:11 [jim]
Brent Fulgham is still listed as maint...
22:47:13 [shagster]
I wanted to add links at http://uptime.openacs.org/aolserver-openacs
22:48:25 [jim]
ok, gotta go...
22:48:32 [jim]
(idling(
22:48:36 [jim]
))
22:48:56 [shagster]
This weekend I'm going to start seeing what different 'package' formats need to be created (rpms, debs, solaris .pkg, etc) or linking to current packages
22:50:47 [jim]
jim has quit (Remote closed the connection)
22:53:00 [rbm]
I'm working with Jonathan Marsden to make OpenACS 4 rpms and debs. He has been taking care of the rpms.
23:28:34 [til]
select timestamp('2002-03-23 04:00'); works under 7.1, not under 7.2
23:29:33 [til]
* til looks for postgres changelog
23:39:30 [til]
* The timestamp() function is no longer available. Use timestamp
23:39:31 [til]
'string' instead, or CAST.
23:40:38 [til]
and the only package that uses this is calendar, apparently.
23:45:09 [til]
* til walks over to the sdm