00:25:32 Aaron, deltab, are either of you around? 00:25:51 oierw has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00:26:18 hi 00:26:37 hi there. could you possibly give me a quick I-D review, if you have the time? 00:26:44 http://infomesh.net/2002/draft-palmer-resource-uri.txt 00:28:55 "inadvertently", I think 00:29:20 ooh, you're right 00:29:24 what's a URI view? 00:29:51 it's defined in 2.1.1. I should put a little reference in 00:30:51 oh 00:31:09 * sbp updates via. FTP 00:31:20 when I first looked there I saw " An escapedURIv is an encoded URI-view which consists only of valid" 00:31:30 and skipped the rest 00:31:38 :-) 00:31:48 "Hmm, this paragraph doesn't say either" 00:32:35 ASCII needs some emphasis characters... 00:33:01 ah, it's just an absolute URI with an optional fragment 00:33:12 you could mention that in the introduction 00:33:29 Hmm... Unicode has U+2383 "emphasis symbol" 00:33:41 I've put a link to 2.1.1 in the intro... would a description be better? 00:34:31 "URI-views (defined in section 2.1.1)" vs. "URI-views (an absoluteURI with optional fragment)". yeah, the latter is better 00:35:09 I looked at 2.1.1 the first time I found the term and didn't see the relevance 00:35:34 and 2.1.1 doesn't explain it, it just gives syntax for it 00:35:47 wmf has quit ("[BX] Have you huggled your BitchX today?") 00:37:21 GabeW has quit ("ChatZilla 0.8.7 [Mozilla rv:1.0.0/20020530]") 00:38:03 the introduction doesn't give me any idea of what's special about the scheme 00:38:34 O.K., I've updated the stuff about URI-view so that it now has its own section and is referenced there 00:38:52 though I get the feeling it's related to URCs 00:38:56 Hmm... I wasn't sure what to put in the intro. lemme think about it 00:39:11 yeah. it's like a bNode in a box 00:39:40 ah! 00:40:34 * sbp wonders what "bNode in a box" is in specification-speak 00:41:53 [[[ 00:41:53 Thus, it can be thought of as identifying an existentially 00:41:53 quantified node with the property and object pairs being 00:41:53 predicates of that node. 00:41:54 ]]] 00:42:21 heh, scary 00:42:47 how so? 00:44:04 Hmm... I just realised that neither "RDF" nor "Semantic" appear in the draft 00:44:33 it may just that be I'm tired, but phrases like "existentially quantified node" and "property and object pairs being predicates" seem rather opaque 00:45:13 you get used to it when you work on the SW :-) 00:45:34 remember this is going to be read by people who don't work in anything like the SW 00:46:33 that's a good point. however, they won't get "bNode in a box" either... I don't want to have to explain bNodes/anon-nodes/existentially quantified nodes in like seven paragraphs whena line will do. OTOH, if it's going to be that opaque, I may have to 00:46:39 * sbp wonders how the Primer tackles it 00:47:35 actually I'd mostly worked out what it was from recognising the structure of the examples, and your "bNode in a box" phrase just confirmed it 00:48:16 yeah, although you're of above-average intelligence & have some RDF/SW background to work it out with 00:48:37 my g3/4 just showed up! 00:48:45 * thelsdj already has it hooked up and on the network 00:48:45 congrats, thelsdj 00:49:01 I think relating it to how URCs were explained (at least as I remember it) would be useful 00:49:04 DanC often compares bNodes to indefinte articles 00:49:22 .google "Uniform Resource Characteristics" 00:49:24 "Uniform Resource Characteristics": http://www5conf.inria.fr/fich_html/slides/panels/Panel5/overview.htm 00:49:35 URL identify resources by how to get to them 00:49:53 URNs by assigning fixed names to them 00:50:04 URCs by describing their properites 00:50:57 it's funny that in WWW5 they were already talking about OIL and PURLs 00:52:03 hmm, oil and pearls - two very different types of thing 00:53:58 heh, heh 00:55:05 Abstract 00:55:05 This document defines the "resource" Uniform Resource Identifier 00:55:05 (URI) scheme, as a generic identifier. 00:55:16 yeah, I already read the title, thanks 00:56:13 * sbp had better read RFC 2026 00:56:18 interesting: http://web.archive.org/web/19981207002648/http://www.acl.lanl.gov/URI/ExtRep/urc0.html 00:57:33 Hmm... 2026 ain't right. I'm just trying to find whether I-Ds really need both an abstract and an introduction 00:58:00 well, look at that as an example 00:58:30 the abstract summarizes the whole thing 00:59:12 ah, 1543 is what I'm looking for 00:59:31 right. it doesn't make it any easier though :-) 00:59:48 the introduction explains how the process fits in with the Internet, what its goals are, etc. 01:01:09 so your abstract should mention that the scheme's for identifying resources by their properties 01:01:22 funny: I was just adding that 01:01:27 [[[ 01:01:27 A "resource" URI allows one to identify a resource using properties 01:01:27 of 01:01:28 ]]] 01:01:51 the introduction can go into more detail about why the SW needs it, etc. 01:12:19 I have more comments 01:12:49 feel free to deliver them. I'm still watching, and re-writing the abstract/intro. 01:14:45 escapedURIv doesn't cover = 01:15:01 argh! 01:15:07 well spotted 01:19:38 * sbp updates 01:20:57 the phrase "property and object pairs" confused me at first 01:21:42 I thought it was referring to property pairs and object pairs, and didn't know what those were 01:22:19 how about "properties and their values"? 01:23:13 maybe properties have two parts: names and values 01:23:30 yep, I just thought of that. using "objects" instead 01:23:50 instead of what? 01:24:07 i.e. "properties and their objects" 01:24:09 updated 01:24:11 hrm 01:25:04 is there a glossary with these terms? 01:25:26 M&S should define them, although its defintions of things have been criticized 01:26:02 http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-rdf-syntax/#glossary 01:27:25 heh, M&S uses the word "object" in two differenct senses in 2.1 01:27:50 one as a synonym for "resource", and the other as a synonym for value, the third term in the triple 01:29:38 and the RDF Primer's definition is in prose, so it can't be pointed at 01:32:42 hmm, difficult to think about when I'm tired: words lose their meaning when I think about them 01:33:55 "properties and their objects" doesn't sound right thoough 01:34:28 "object and their properties" does 01:34:34 ^objects 01:36:54 for me, the latter seems backwards. "objects of properties" would work 01:37:09 I'm used to thinking in s=p=>o terms 01:37:29 that's *predicates* and objects 01:38:28 I don't understand. in RDF, property is the range of predicate, but to the rest of the world a predicate is a property and object pair 01:38:55 I wanted to keep the terminology consistent with the rest of the world, but without annoying the RDFers, so I don't use the term "predicate" at all 01:39:04 good 01:40:07 many properties don't refer to objects: colour, for instance 01:40:34 oh, you mean: Red(Dress) 01:40:46 RDF uses rdf:type for that 01:41:15 I don't know what that syntax means, so I can't confirm or deny that 01:41:36 it just means that the dress is red 01:41:46 in Notation3, :Dress a :Red . 01:41:56 the colour of the dress is red 01:42:29 "the object of the colour of the dress" sounds wrong 01:42:30 in that case, :Dress :color :Red . 01:43:08 what about if you substitute "value" for "object" in your line? 01:43:28 then I start thinking about HSV 01:43:41 hrm 01:44:20 I see what you mean: "the color of the dress" is more natural in language 01:44:45 because the subject is given by "the" 01:45:11 :Dress a :Red doesn't sound right to me in English or Notation3 01:45:25 :Crimson a :Red 01:45:42 :Dress a :RedThing 01:45:44 how about: :JosDress a :RedDress . 01:45:49 * deltab nods 01:45:55 right, that makes sense 01:46:17 :Dress in my example sounded too much like the class of dresses 01:46:39 I was reading it as a single dress 01:47:04 oh? so what made it sound wrong? 01:47:21 but either way, "a" is short for "is a", not "is" 01:47:32 yeah 01:48:31 this should be written up in an RDF style-guide somewhere :-) 01:49:06 +1 for loggy 01:50:15 ooh, someone just used the word "mysterylights" generically, instead of referring to the .com 01:51:16 well, I think I need a break anyway. many thanks for your comments, deltab 02:00:31 I have a number of other comments - remind me tomorrow 02:03:47 * AaronSw waves 02:03:54 GabeW (~chatzilla@12-236-104-95.client.attbi.com) has joined #swhack 02:03:59 oh dear. 592 emails 02:04:33 today on... scripts gone wild! 02:18:49 deltab|offline? 02:19:08 soon will be 02:19:56 AaronSw has changed the topic to: happy birthday redmonk 02:33:53 * thelsdj fiddles around with his new mac and tries to figure out what to download next heh 02:36:26 aargh, not anoter uri scheme :0 02:37:01 there's plenty of room for as many URI schemes as there are spec-writers! 02:37:26 not just another one - this one's a URC 02:37:31 ooh 02:37:34 URC! 02:37:39 having heard about URCs in a long while 02:40:06 * AaronSw reads eagerly 02:40:50 Oh dear, this sounds like a very bad idea. 02:41:01 Not quite as bad as his bnode URI scheme, thankfully. 02:41:47 hmm, I was thinking of suggesting it be renamed, perhaps to "bnode" 02:42:29 Yeah, I forget what his bnode URI scheme was named, but it wasn't bnode. 02:42:37 I think it was just urn:urn-x actualy 02:42:45 ah 02:44:52 Now I'm interested in how Jill's PGP key provided inspiration. 03:04:15 bitsko made me realize the reason i don't like aggregators... they don't use email 03:04:21 so i'm going to try out blagg, i think 03:16:29 Gotta run 03:16:33 hey! 03:16:36 he could have said hi at least 03:16:47 i simply must write about a dystopia where people run around saying things like "simply must" and "brill" 03:17:19 that'd be brill 03:26:39 deltab has quit ("upgrading: P133 -> M-II 300") 03:26:46 ooh 03:30:07 ugh. blagg sticks it all in the same message 03:33:39 great minds blog alike 03:41:09 ugh... developer.arsdigita.com is dead 03:47:56 i yhink i'll call my cocoa app memesh 04:15:00 eikeon has quit (Remote closed the connection) 04:20:20 memesh is an inventive name 04:40:25 GabeW has quit ("ChatZilla 0.8.7 [Mozilla rv:1.0.0/20020530]") 04:56:21 bed time, good night 04:56:30 kham has left #swhack 06:02:26 tansaku_xz (~sam@210.128.160.1) has joined #swhack 06:09:59 kensaku (sam@sy190-181.svc.itscom.jp) has joined #swhack 06:15:02 justme (~justme@rot2-p2798.dial.wanadoo.nl) has joined #swhack 06:17:17 * AaronSw <- sleep 06:28:01 tansaku_xz has quit (Connection timed out) 06:57:16 justme has quit ("Client Exiting") 07:11:01 kensaku has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:55:29 justme (~justme@i0721.vwa.wanadoo.nl) has joined #swhack 10:12:36 justme_ (~justme@rot2-p0053.dial.wanadoo.nl) has joined #swhack 10:16:57 justme has quit (No route to host) 10:35:01 oierw (~mathew@pcp994425pcs.goosck01.sc.comcast.net) has joined #swhack 11:41:04 justme_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:30:44 * sbp waves 12:30:48 good World Cup final. two goals from Ronaldo (whoo!) 13:24:23 'morn 13:25:13 heh, heh. perl .sig: !try; do() 13:36:01 i always hated that saying, i think trying is a valid option 13:38:30 I don't think I've pondered it deeply enough to have an opinion 13:40:53 kham (~bipolar@adsl-64-109-204-209.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net) has joined #swhack 13:44:56 bip0lar__ (~bipolar@adsl-64-109-204-209.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net) has joined #swhack 13:47:58 bip0lar__ has left #swhack 13:48:47 kham has left #swhack 13:50:04 kham (~bipolar@adsl-64-109-204-209.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net) has joined #swhack 13:50:09 kham has quit (Client Quit) 13:53:52 kham (~bipolar@adsl-64-109-204-209.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net) has joined #swhack 13:55:08 kham has left #swhack 13:59:03 kham (~bipolar@adsl-64-109-204-209.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net) has joined #swhack 13:59:23 kham has quit (Client Quit) 14:15:20 oierw has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:18:08 oierw (~mathew@pcp994425pcs.goosck01.sc.comcast.net) has joined #swhack 14:30:08 hey sbp 14:30:43 hi there 14:31:45 so, "a very bad idea"? 14:31:58 maybe not very 14:32:07 possibly just average bad 14:32:17 because bNodes are bad 14:32:33 what is your planned use for the sceme? 14:32:46 to replace bNodes :-) 14:33:06 and what is the resource identified by a resource: uri? 14:33:34 well, that depends upon the URI 14:33:34 all things with that description? one (but a different one than everyone else who uses this uri) 14:33:45 but in general... what is the process? 14:34:19 well, "something that". As it states in the draft, existentially quantified, so it is a set 14:34:56 which is it? all things or one thing? 14:35:02 * sbp isn't sure if he's going to submit it yet, BTW 14:36:26 well... if the W3C homepage can be expressed as [ log:uri "http://www.w3.org/" ], is that one thing, or many things? 14:36:59 that's dodging the question. the question, specifically is whether the corresponding resource uri identifies a specific thing with that URI, or all things with that uri 14:37:10 resource:[color red] (to make up a syntax) is probably a better example 14:37:23 is it all red things, or a specific red thing (which i'm not describing further) 14:37:37 it represents "some thing" that has those properties 14:38:15 so if bob says [color red] a :Hair . and john says [color red] a :Car. they're talking about different things? 14:38:25 so the resourcew scheme resolves differently depending on context? 14:38:46 well, you don't know which is which in that case, so what does it matter 14:38:47 ? 14:39:20 what kind of question is that? I don't know what http://infomesh.net/sbp/ is but it still matters to me 14:41:11 huh? 14:41:46 it sounds like the basic semantics of your scheme are either unspecified, or always changing 14:42:03 that's bad 14:42:36 CyberJ (~Cyberjunk@202.138.121.9) has joined #swhack 14:42:38 well, that's bNodes & the Semantic Web for you. it changes when you use unambiguous properties 14:43:48 CyberJ has left #swhack 14:48:08 kham (~bipolar@adsl-64-109-204-209.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net) has joined #swhack 14:50:31 it's not the semweb, just bNodes, and this is why bNodes suck 14:50:48 but making them into a uri scheme makes them even suckier, because you can refer to unreferrable things qane everyhting bloes upw 14:51:43 can you provide a test case where things get messed up? 14:54:05 the [color red] thing 14:54:25 in a document they further description would change the bnode... it'd be a different thing than in the other doc 14:54:34 but the uri dfoesn't change, so you get a weirdthingy 14:54:51 O.K., that's acceptable 14:54:58 * sbp gets out the big rubber stamp 14:55:03 to whom? 14:55:28 * sbp whacks a big "THANKS FOR THE FEEDBACK" mark on Aaron's forehead, and "CANCELLED" on the I-D 14:55:29 :-) 14:55:35 heh 14:55:44 ow, my head hurts 14:56:10 sorry... s'diffficult to get the imprint otherwise :-) 14:57:54 ugh, now I need another crazy scheme to embark upon 14:58:13 maybe an enhanced esl thing 14:58:46 "I'll never say the word procrastinate again / I'll never see myself in the mirror with my eyes closed" 15:03:17 I wonder if they ever standardized the vat scheme 15:03:35 oops, it's cap 15:05:40 lelly (lelly@modem-3100.porcupine.dialup.pol.co.uk) has joined #swhack 15:38:38 thelsdj has quit (Remote closed the connection) 15:40:27 thelsdj (~adam@p151.tc3.rnktel.net) has joined #swhack 15:44:42 lelly has quit () 15:48:07 trip planning is so compilcated 15:48:36 [ENTERS] The Semantic Web 15:48:49 help 15:48:58 i need somebody 15:48:59 hepl 15:49:02 not just anybody 15:49:03 help 15:49:08 you know i need the semantic web! 15:49:36 heh! http://www.groovie.org/ 15:50:21 heh, I should have done that for infomesh.net 15:51:45 you should put a puzzle up on infomesh.net like soem base64 encoded string 15:51:59 well, I was thinking of doing just that 15:52:05 except that I'd do like 50 puzzles 15:52:14 and then put up an ASP script to select one at random 15:54:24 that'd be cool 15:59:41 Gotta run 16:06:34 * AaronSw updates http://notabug.com/ 16:15:02 * AaronSw adds some simple puzzles 16:54:22 deltab|offline has quit ("BitchX-1.0c19 -- just do it.") 16:55:58 deltab (~deltab@198.78.66.122) has joined #swhack 17:04:17 oierw has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 17:05:20 oierw (~mathew@pcp994425pcs.goosck01.sc.comcast.net) has joined #swhack 17:05:32 * AaronSw <- pool 17:05:40 tell benadida to call me on my cell phone 17:16:27 sbp has quit (Remote closed the connection) 17:16:42 sbp (~sean@63.149.73.20) has joined #swhack 17:17:04 justme (~justme@rot2-p0642.dial.wanadoo.nl) has joined #swhack 17:18:38 sbp has quit (Remote closed the connection) 17:18:53 sbp (~sean@63.149.73.20) has joined #swhack 17:23:01 hah! I got the third one too 17:24:27 I'll have to test him with a 700 digit number when he comes back 18:01:37 wmf (~wmf@cs666868-69.austin.rr.com) has joined #swhack 18:01:40 swhack! 18:01:54 redmonk! 18:02:44 greets wmf 18:14:39 heh: http://www.navyrelics.com/tribute/bellsys/pdf/bspboo_1.pdf 18:14:56 point 6 under 1.05 18:15:11 via. http://www.navyrelics.com/tribute/bellsys/ 18:22:18 oierw has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:24:01 oierw (~mathew@pcp994425pcs.goosck01.sc.comcast.net) has joined #swhack 18:32:05 * justme is away: I'm busy 18:32:27 * justme is back (gone 00:00:02) 18:58:57 justme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:48:47 @ http://www.thinksecret.com/features/jaguarnewupdates/ 19:48:53 A: Think Secret - Inside Jaguar: An exclusive sneak-peek at new updates, part one from wmf 19:52:01 A::looks like you can NetBoot Jaguar; schools will love it 19:52:04 commented item A 20:05:08 oierw has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 20:06:19 oierw (~mathew@pcp994425pcs.goosck01.sc.comcast.net) has joined #swhack 20:16:25 .time edt 20:16:25 Sun, 30 Jun 2002 17:15:56 EDT 20:18:07 AaronSw! 20:18:13 wmf! 20:18:26 hm? I'll have to test him with a 700 digit number when he comes back 20:18:47 ooh, netboot 20:19:26 it was just a matter of time 20:20:46 it's hard to see these aqua tweaks with the image compression 20:20:54 ooh, new iMac for computer logo 20:21:14 yeah, the aqua changes are pretty subtle 20:21:28 some people are arguing over them, but I can barely tell the difference 20:22:05 maybe it's just that my eyes are filled with water 20:23:27 hm, it does look nicer, tho 20:24:40 they changed the buttons too... apple will have to update half their website :) 20:25:45 man, i can't wait until jaguar... 20:26:22 jaguar jaguar jaguar jaguar 20:26:42 ooh: "next-generation IPv6 networking" 20:26:54 what you say? 20:27:05 and IPSEC! http://www.thinksecret.com/features/jaguarnewupdates/images/machelpwhatsnew4.html 20:27:18 enhanced energy-saving 20:27:40 figures, the one screen shot I don't look at 20:28:03 A::not to mention IPv6 and IPSEC 20:28:06 commented item A 20:29:09 hmm, multi-gender accounts logo 20:29:28 ODBC admin... odd 20:32:43 ugh, Gotta run 20:32:47 * AaronSw <- dinner 20:35:46 700 digit: to check for primeness 21:02:36 Covert-Ops (some@pool-141-157-220-100.ny325.east.verizon.net) has joined #swhack 21:05:39 Covert-Ops has quit () 21:30:13 oierw has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 21:30:20 oierw (~mathew@pcp994425pcs.goosck01.sc.comcast.net) has joined #swhack 21:43:49 * sbp checks out agit-theatre 23:19:47 GabeW (~chatzilla@12-236-104-95.client.attbi.com) has joined #swhack 23:23:26 GabeW has quit (Client Quit)