IRC log of swhack on 2002-06-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:25:32 [sbp]
Aaron, deltab, are either of you around?
00:25:51 [oierw]
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00:26:18 [deltab]
hi
00:26:37 [sbp]
hi there. could you possibly give me a quick I-D review, if you have the time?
00:26:44 [sbp]
http://infomesh.net/2002/draft-palmer-resource-uri.txt
00:28:55 [deltab]
"inadvertently", I think
00:29:20 [sbp]
ooh, you're right
00:29:24 [deltab]
what's a URI view?
00:29:51 [sbp]
it's defined in 2.1.1. I should put a little reference in
00:30:51 [deltab]
oh
00:31:09 [sbp]
* sbp updates via. FTP
00:31:20 [deltab]
when I first looked there I saw " An escapedURIv is an encoded URI-view which consists only of valid"
00:31:30 [deltab]
and skipped the rest
00:31:38 [sbp]
:-)
00:31:48 [deltab]
"Hmm, this paragraph doesn't say either"
00:32:35 [sbp]
ASCII needs some emphasis characters...
00:33:01 [deltab]
ah, it's just an absolute URI with an optional fragment
00:33:12 [deltab]
you could mention that in the introduction
00:33:29 [sbp]
Hmm... Unicode has U+2383 "emphasis symbol"
00:33:41 [sbp]
I've put a link to 2.1.1 in the intro... would a description be better?
00:34:31 [sbp]
"URI-views (defined in section 2.1.1)" vs. "URI-views (an absoluteURI with optional fragment)". yeah, the latter is better
00:35:09 [deltab]
I looked at 2.1.1 the first time I found the term and didn't see the relevance
00:35:34 [deltab]
and 2.1.1 doesn't explain it, it just gives syntax for it
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00:38:03 [deltab]
the introduction doesn't give me any idea of what's special about the scheme
00:38:34 [sbp]
O.K., I've updated the stuff about URI-view so that it now has its own section and is referenced there
00:38:52 [deltab]
though I get the feeling it's related to URCs
00:38:56 [sbp]
Hmm... I wasn't sure what to put in the intro. lemme think about it
00:39:11 [sbp]
yeah. it's like a bNode in a box
00:39:40 [deltab]
ah!
00:40:34 [sbp]
* sbp wonders what "bNode in a box" is in specification-speak
00:41:53 [sbp]
[[[
00:41:53 [sbp]
Thus, it can be thought of as identifying an existentially
00:41:53 [sbp]
quantified node with the property and object pairs being
00:41:53 [sbp]
predicates of that node.
00:41:54 [sbp]
]]]
00:42:21 [deltab]
heh, scary
00:42:47 [sbp]
how so?
00:44:04 [sbp]
Hmm... I just realised that neither "RDF" nor "Semantic" appear in the draft
00:44:33 [deltab]
it may just that be I'm tired, but phrases like "existentially quantified node" and "property and object pairs being predicates" seem rather opaque
00:45:13 [sbp]
you get used to it when you work on the SW :-)
00:45:34 [deltab]
remember this is going to be read by people who don't work in anything like the SW
00:46:33 [sbp]
that's a good point. however, they won't get "bNode in a box" either... I don't want to have to explain bNodes/anon-nodes/existentially quantified nodes in like seven paragraphs whena line will do. OTOH, if it's going to be that opaque, I may have to
00:46:39 [sbp]
* sbp wonders how the Primer tackles it
00:47:35 [deltab]
actually I'd mostly worked out what it was from recognising the structure of the examples, and your "bNode in a box" phrase just confirmed it
00:48:16 [sbp]
yeah, although you're of above-average intelligence & have some RDF/SW background to work it out with
00:48:37 [thelsdj]
my g3/4 just showed up!
00:48:45 [thelsdj]
* thelsdj already has it hooked up and on the network
00:48:45 [sbp]
congrats, thelsdj
00:49:01 [deltab]
I think relating it to how URCs were explained (at least as I remember it) would be useful
00:49:04 [sbp]
DanC often compares bNodes to indefinte articles
00:49:22 [sbp]
.google "Uniform Resource Characteristics"
00:49:24 [datum]
"Uniform Resource Characteristics": http://www5conf.inria.fr/fich_html/slides/panels/Panel5/overview.htm
00:49:35 [deltab]
URL identify resources by how to get to them
00:49:53 [deltab]
URNs by assigning fixed names to them
00:50:04 [deltab]
URCs by describing their properites
00:50:57 [sbp]
it's funny that in WWW5 they were already talking about OIL and PURLs
00:52:03 [deltab]
hmm, oil and pearls - two very different types of thing
00:53:58 [sbp]
heh, heh
00:55:05 [deltab]
Abstract
00:55:05 [deltab]
This document defines the "resource" Uniform Resource Identifier
00:55:05 [deltab]
(URI) scheme, as a generic identifier.
00:55:16 [deltab]
yeah, I already read the title, thanks
00:56:13 [sbp]
* sbp had better read RFC 2026
00:56:18 [sbp]
interesting: http://web.archive.org/web/19981207002648/http://www.acl.lanl.gov/URI/ExtRep/urc0.html
00:57:33 [sbp]
Hmm... 2026 ain't right. I'm just trying to find whether I-Ds really need both an abstract and an introduction
00:58:00 [deltab]
well, look at that as an example
00:58:30 [deltab]
the abstract summarizes the whole thing
00:59:12 [sbp]
ah, 1543 is what I'm looking for
00:59:31 [sbp]
right. it doesn't make it any easier though :-)
00:59:48 [deltab]
the introduction explains how the process fits in with the Internet, what its goals are, etc.
01:01:09 [deltab]
so your abstract should mention that the scheme's for identifying resources by their properties
01:01:22 [sbp]
funny: I was just adding that
01:01:27 [sbp]
[[[
01:01:27 [sbp]
A "resource" URI allows one to identify a resource using properties
01:01:27 [sbp]
of
01:01:28 [sbp]
]]]
01:01:51 [deltab]
the introduction can go into more detail about why the SW needs it, etc.
01:12:19 [deltab]
I have more comments
01:12:49 [sbp]
feel free to deliver them. I'm still watching, and re-writing the abstract/intro.
01:14:45 [deltab]
escapedURIv doesn't cover =
01:15:01 [sbp]
argh!
01:15:07 [sbp]
well spotted
01:19:38 [sbp]
* sbp updates
01:20:57 [deltab]
the phrase "property and object pairs" confused me at first
01:21:42 [deltab]
I thought it was referring to property pairs and object pairs, and didn't know what those were
01:22:19 [sbp]
how about "properties and their values"?
01:23:13 [deltab]
maybe properties have two parts: names and values
01:23:30 [sbp]
yep, I just thought of that. using "objects" instead
01:23:50 [deltab]
instead of what?
01:24:07 [sbp]
i.e. "properties and their objects"
01:24:09 [sbp]
updated
01:24:11 [deltab]
hrm
01:25:04 [deltab]
is there a glossary with these terms?
01:25:26 [sbp]
M&S should define them, although its defintions of things have been criticized
01:26:02 [sbp]
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-rdf-syntax/#glossary
01:27:25 [sbp]
heh, M&S uses the word "object" in two differenct senses in 2.1
01:27:50 [sbp]
one as a synonym for "resource", and the other as a synonym for value, the third term in the triple
01:29:38 [sbp]
and the RDF Primer's definition is in prose, so it can't be pointed at
01:32:42 [deltab]
hmm, difficult to think about when I'm tired: words lose their meaning when I think about them
01:33:55 [deltab]
"properties and their objects" doesn't sound right thoough
01:34:28 [deltab]
"object and their properties" does
01:34:34 [deltab]
^objects
01:36:54 [sbp]
for me, the latter seems backwards. "objects of properties" would work
01:37:09 [sbp]
I'm used to thinking in s=p=>o terms
01:37:29 [deltab]
that's *predicates* and objects
01:38:28 [sbp]
I don't understand. in RDF, property is the range of predicate, but to the rest of the world a predicate is a property and object pair
01:38:55 [sbp]
I wanted to keep the terminology consistent with the rest of the world, but without annoying the RDFers, so I don't use the term "predicate" at all
01:39:04 [deltab]
good
01:40:07 [deltab]
many properties don't refer to objects: colour, for instance
01:40:34 [sbp]
oh, you mean: Red(Dress)
01:40:46 [sbp]
RDF uses rdf:type for that
01:41:15 [deltab]
I don't know what that syntax means, so I can't confirm or deny that
01:41:36 [sbp]
it just means that the dress is red
01:41:46 [sbp]
in Notation3, :Dress a :Red .
01:41:56 [deltab]
the colour of the dress is red
01:42:29 [deltab]
"the object of the colour of the dress" sounds wrong
01:42:30 [sbp]
in that case, :Dress :color :Red .
01:43:08 [sbp]
what about if you substitute "value" for "object" in your line?
01:43:28 [deltab]
then I start thinking about HSV
01:43:41 [deltab]
hrm
01:44:20 [sbp]
I see what you mean: "the color of the dress" is more natural in language
01:44:45 [sbp]
because the subject is given by "the"
01:45:11 [deltab]
:Dress a :Red doesn't sound right to me in English or Notation3
01:45:25 [deltab]
:Crimson a :Red
01:45:42 [deltab]
:Dress a :RedThing
01:45:44 [sbp]
how about: :JosDress a :RedDress .
01:45:49 [deltab]
* deltab nods
01:45:55 [sbp]
right, that makes sense
01:46:17 [sbp]
:Dress in my example sounded too much like the class of dresses
01:46:39 [deltab]
I was reading it as a single dress
01:47:04 [sbp]
oh? so what made it sound wrong?
01:47:21 [deltab]
but either way, "a" is short for "is a", not "is"
01:47:32 [sbp]
yeah
01:48:31 [sbp]
this should be written up in an RDF style-guide somewhere :-)
01:49:06 [sbp]
+1 for loggy
01:50:15 [sbp]
ooh, someone just used the word "mysterylights" generically, instead of referring to the .com
01:51:16 [sbp]
well, I think I need a break anyway. many thanks for your comments, deltab
02:00:31 [deltab]
I have a number of other comments - remind me tomorrow
02:03:47 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw waves
02:03:54 [GabeW]
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02:03:59 [AaronSw]
oh dear. 592 emails
02:04:33 [AaronSw]
today on... scripts gone wild!
02:18:49 [AaronSw]
deltab|offline?
02:19:08 [deltab]
soon will be
02:19:56 [AaronSw]
AaronSw has changed the topic to: happy birthday redmonk
02:33:53 [thelsdj]
* thelsdj fiddles around with his new mac and tries to figure out what to download next heh
02:36:26 [AaronSw]
aargh, not anoter uri scheme :0
02:37:01 [GabeW]
there's plenty of room for as many URI schemes as there are spec-writers!
02:37:26 [deltab]
not just another one - this one's a URC
02:37:31 [GabeW]
ooh
02:37:34 [GabeW]
URC!
02:37:39 [GabeW]
having heard about URCs in a long while
02:40:06 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw reads eagerly
02:40:50 [AaronSw]
Oh dear, this sounds like a very bad idea.
02:41:01 [AaronSw]
Not quite as bad as his bnode URI scheme, thankfully.
02:41:47 [deltab]
hmm, I was thinking of suggesting it be renamed, perhaps to "bnode"
02:42:29 [AaronSw]
Yeah, I forget what his bnode URI scheme was named, but it wasn't bnode.
02:42:37 [AaronSw]
I think it was just urn:urn-x actualy
02:42:45 [deltab]
ah
02:44:52 [AaronSw]
Now I'm interested in how Jill's PGP key provided inspiration.
03:04:15 [AaronSw]
bitsko made me realize the reason i don't like aggregators... they don't use email
03:04:21 [AaronSw]
so i'm going to try out blagg, i think
03:16:29 [sbp]
Gotta run
03:16:33 [AaronSw]
hey!
03:16:36 [AaronSw]
he could have said hi at least
03:16:47 [AaronSw]
i simply must write about a dystopia where people run around saying things like "simply must" and "brill"
03:17:19 [deltab]
that'd be brill
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03:26:46 [AaronSw]
ooh
03:30:07 [AaronSw]
ugh. blagg sticks it all in the same message
03:33:39 [AaronSw]
great minds blog alike
03:41:09 [AaronSw]
ugh... developer.arsdigita.com is dead
03:47:56 [AaronSw]
i yhink i'll call my cocoa app memesh
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04:20:20 [kham]
memesh is an inventive name
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04:56:21 [kham]
bed time, good night
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* AaronSw <- sleep
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12:30:44 [sbp]
* sbp waves
12:30:48 [sbp]
good World Cup final. two goals from Ronaldo (whoo!)
13:24:23 [AaronSw]
'morn
13:25:13 [AaronSw]
heh, heh. perl .sig: !try; do()
13:36:01 [thelsdj]
i always hated that saying, i think trying is a valid option
13:38:30 [AaronSw]
I don't think I've pondered it deeply enough to have an opinion
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14:30:08 [AaronSw]
hey sbp
14:30:43 [sbp]
hi there
14:31:45 [sbp]
so, "a very bad idea"?
14:31:58 [AaronSw]
maybe not very
14:32:07 [AaronSw]
possibly just average bad
14:32:17 [AaronSw]
because bNodes are bad
14:32:33 [AaronSw]
what is your planned use for the sceme?
14:32:46 [sbp]
to replace bNodes :-)
14:33:06 [AaronSw]
and what is the resource identified by a resource: uri?
14:33:34 [sbp]
well, that depends upon the URI
14:33:34 [AaronSw]
all things with that description? one (but a different one than everyone else who uses this uri)
14:33:45 [AaronSw]
but in general... what is the process?
14:34:19 [sbp]
well, "something that". As it states in the draft, existentially quantified, so it is a set
14:34:56 [AaronSw]
which is it? all things or one thing?
14:35:02 [sbp]
* sbp isn't sure if he's going to submit it yet, BTW
14:36:26 [sbp]
well... if the W3C homepage can be expressed as [ log:uri "http://www.w3.org/" ], is that one thing, or many things?
14:36:59 [AaronSw]
that's dodging the question. the question, specifically is whether the corresponding resource uri identifies a specific thing with that URI, or all things with that uri
14:37:10 [AaronSw]
resource:[color red] (to make up a syntax) is probably a better example
14:37:23 [AaronSw]
is it all red things, or a specific red thing (which i'm not describing further)
14:37:37 [sbp]
it represents "some thing" that has those properties
14:38:15 [AaronSw]
so if bob says [color red] a :Hair . and john says [color red] a :Car. they're talking about different things?
14:38:25 [AaronSw]
so the resourcew scheme resolves differently depending on context?
14:38:46 [sbp]
well, you don't know which is which in that case, so what does it matter
14:38:47 [sbp]
?
14:39:20 [AaronSw]
what kind of question is that? I don't know what http://infomesh.net/sbp/ is but it still matters to me
14:41:11 [sbp]
huh?
14:41:46 [AaronSw]
it sounds like the basic semantics of your scheme are either unspecified, or always changing
14:42:03 [AaronSw]
that's bad
14:42:36 [CyberJ]
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14:42:38 [sbp]
well, that's bNodes & the Semantic Web for you. it changes when you use unambiguous properties
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14:50:31 [AaronSw]
it's not the semweb, just bNodes, and this is why bNodes suck
14:50:48 [AaronSw]
but making them into a uri scheme makes them even suckier, because you can refer to unreferrable things qane everyhting bloes upw
14:51:43 [sbp]
can you provide a test case where things get messed up?
14:54:05 [AaronSw]
the [color red] thing
14:54:25 [AaronSw]
in a document they further description would change the bnode... it'd be a different thing than in the other doc
14:54:34 [AaronSw]
but the uri dfoesn't change, so you get a weirdthingy
14:54:51 [sbp]
O.K., that's acceptable
14:54:58 [sbp]
* sbp gets out the big rubber stamp
14:55:03 [AaronSw]
to whom?
14:55:28 [sbp]
* sbp whacks a big "THANKS FOR THE FEEDBACK" mark on Aaron's forehead, and "CANCELLED" on the I-D
14:55:29 [sbp]
:-)
14:55:35 [AaronSw]
heh
14:55:44 [AaronSw]
ow, my head hurts
14:56:10 [sbp]
sorry... s'diffficult to get the imprint otherwise :-)
14:57:54 [sbp]
ugh, now I need another crazy scheme to embark upon
14:58:13 [AaronSw]
maybe an enhanced esl thing
14:58:46 [AaronSw]
"I'll never say the word procrastinate again / I'll never see myself in the mirror with my eyes closed"
15:03:17 [AaronSw]
I wonder if they ever standardized the vat scheme
15:03:35 [AaronSw]
oops, it's cap
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15:48:07 [AaronSw]
trip planning is so compilcated
15:48:36 [sbp]
[ENTERS] The Semantic Web
15:48:49 [AaronSw]
help
15:48:58 [AaronSw]
i need somebody
15:48:59 [AaronSw]
hepl
15:49:02 [AaronSw]
not just anybody
15:49:03 [AaronSw]
help
15:49:08 [AaronSw]
you know i need the semantic web!
15:49:36 [AaronSw]
heh! http://www.groovie.org/
15:50:21 [sbp]
heh, I should have done that for infomesh.net
15:51:45 [AaronSw]
you should put a puzzle up on infomesh.net like soem base64 encoded string
15:51:59 [sbp]
well, I was thinking of doing just that
15:52:05 [sbp]
except that I'd do like 50 puzzles
15:52:14 [sbp]
and then put up an ASP script to select one at random
15:54:24 [AaronSw]
that'd be cool
15:59:41 [sbp]
Gotta run
16:06:34 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw updates http://notabug.com/
16:15:02 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw adds some simple puzzles
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* AaronSw <- pool
17:05:40 [AaronSw]
tell benadida to call me on my cell phone
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17:23:01 [sbp]
hah! I got the third one too
17:24:27 [sbp]
I'll have to test him with a 700 digit number when he comes back
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18:01:40 [wmf]
swhack!
18:01:54 [wmf]
redmonk!
18:02:44 [uberfunk]
greets wmf
18:14:39 [sbp]
heh: http://www.navyrelics.com/tribute/bellsys/pdf/bspboo_1.pdf
18:14:56 [sbp]
point 6 under 1.05
18:15:11 [sbp]
via. http://www.navyrelics.com/tribute/bellsys/
18:22:18 [oierw]
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18:32:05 [justme]
* justme is away: I'm busy
18:32:27 [justme]
* justme is back (gone 00:00:02)
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19:48:47 [wmf]
@ http://www.thinksecret.com/features/jaguarnewupdates/
19:48:53 [chumpy]
A: Think Secret - Inside Jaguar: An exclusive sneak-peek at new updates, part one from wmf
19:52:01 [wmf]
A::looks like you can NetBoot Jaguar; schools will love it
19:52:04 [chumpy]
commented item A
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20:16:25 [AaronSw]
.time edt
20:16:25 [datum]
Sun, 30 Jun 2002 17:15:56 EDT
20:18:07 [wmf]
AaronSw!
20:18:13 [AaronSw]
wmf!
20:18:26 [AaronSw]
hm? <sbp> I'll have to test him with a 700 digit number when he comes back
20:18:47 [AaronSw]
ooh, netboot
20:19:26 [wmf]
it was just a matter of time
20:20:46 [AaronSw]
it's hard to see these aqua tweaks with the image compression
20:20:54 [AaronSw]
ooh, new iMac for computer logo
20:21:14 [wmf]
yeah, the aqua changes are pretty subtle
20:21:28 [wmf]
some people are arguing over them, but I can barely tell the difference
20:22:05 [AaronSw]
maybe it's just that my eyes are filled with water
20:23:27 [AaronSw]
hm, it does look nicer, tho
20:24:40 [AaronSw]
they changed the buttons too... apple will have to update half their website :)
20:25:45 [AaronSw]
man, i can't wait until jaguar...
20:26:22 [wmf]
jaguar jaguar jaguar jaguar
20:26:42 [AaronSw]
ooh: "next-generation IPv6 networking"
20:26:54 [wmf]
what you say?
20:27:05 [AaronSw]
and IPSEC! http://www.thinksecret.com/features/jaguarnewupdates/images/machelpwhatsnew4.html
20:27:18 [AaronSw]
enhanced energy-saving
20:27:40 [wmf]
figures, the one screen shot I don't look at
20:28:03 [AaronSw]
A::not to mention IPv6 and IPSEC
20:28:06 [chumpy]
commented item A
20:29:09 [AaronSw]
hmm, multi-gender accounts logo
20:29:28 [AaronSw]
ODBC admin... odd
20:32:43 [AaronSw]
ugh, Gotta run
20:32:47 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw <- dinner
20:35:46 [sbp]
700 digit: to check for primeness
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21:43:49 [sbp]
* sbp checks out agit-theatre
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