IRC log of swhack on 2002-06-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:00:53 [MorbusIff]
holy fuck!
00:00:56 [MorbusIff]
i just found an easter egg in something
00:01:09 [MorbusIff]
AaronSw, do you have quickeys?
00:01:18 [AaronSw]
not yet
00:01:35 [MorbusIff]
i think i found a cool easter egg
00:01:52 [AaronSw]
what's it do?
00:01:53 [MorbusIff]
yeah, definitely
00:02:10 [MorbusIff]
it shows a window called "3 haired, 4 eyed cross eye smiley hockey playing monster"
00:02:16 [MorbusIff]
it's a rounded picture.
00:02:16 [MorbusIff]
a drawing
00:02:37 [AaronSw]
what webcam program do you use?
00:02:49 [MorbusIff]
coolcam
00:03:02 [AaronSw]
how long does the demo last?
00:03:24 [MorbusIff]
unlimited.
00:04:08 [AaronSw]
nice
00:06:31 [AaronSw]
whoo, webcam! http://www.aaronsw.com/2002/webcam
00:07:07 [MorbusIff]
whoo!
00:07:12 [MorbusIff]
ack! no meta refresh page!
00:07:26 [MorbusIff]
i am lazy! furnish me with meta! <G>
00:08:07 [deltab]
you shouldn't need a separate page
00:08:09 [AaronSw]
hold, on, let me get the cron job up first
00:08:22 [AaronSw]
deltab, what's the correct header?
00:08:35 [MorbusIff]
a cronjob?
00:08:35 [MorbusIff]
coolcam should do it for you.
00:08:40 [deltab]
it's not standard
00:08:40 [MorbusIff]
it has ftp upload capabilities.
00:09:03 [MorbusIff]
server push?
00:09:14 [deltab]
but it "Refresh: " and a number of seconds
00:11:31 [AaronSw]
odd, apache is adding the header 4 times
00:11:46 [deltab]
the meta tag used is <meta http-equiv="Refresh" value="5"> I think
00:12:07 [AaronSw]
ahh, needed to change Header add to Header sert
00:12:09 [AaronSw]
err set
00:12:32 [MorbusIff]
AaronSw:
00:12:38 [MorbusIff]
./popread && perl -pi -e 's/\n/\r/g' "../Documents/Eudora Folder/Mail Folder/test" && /Developer/Tools/SetFile -c CSOm -t TEXT "../Documents/Eudora Folder/Mail Folder/test" && osascript quickeys-bridge.script
00:12:38 [MorbusIff]
that's my final command.
00:12:50 [redmonk]
redmonk (sid@ip68-2-102-26.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #swhack
00:13:24 [MorbusIff]
downloads the mail, filters, fixes the linefeeds and c/t, and then runs a simple applescript that loads quickeys which loads a mouse recording that opens eudora, sets the mailox and does a filter
00:13:24 [MorbusIff]
heh, heh.
00:13:40 [MorbusIff]
it works perfectly:)
00:13:45 [AaronSw]
amazing
00:13:48 [AaronSw]
AaronSw has changed the topic to: see me at home: http://www.aaronsw.com/2002/webcam | see you at oscon: http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/000371
00:15:39 [AaronSw]
whoa. camera fell
00:15:45 [MorbusIff]
what's in you rmouth?
00:16:00 [AaronSw]
teeth
00:23:34 [redmonk]
redmonk has quit ("Snak 4.8.3 - http://www.snak.com")
00:23:58 [MorbusIff]
i wanna see your face.
00:23:58 [MorbusIff]
not your cute widdle hands.
00:24:28 [MorbusIff]
eyeball.
00:24:28 [MorbusIff]
mmm.
00:24:30 [MorbusIff]
* MorbusIff pokes,.
00:26:04 [MorbusIff]
heh. cams are fun.
00:27:23 [MorbusIff]
who's that?
00:27:29 [MorbusIff]
ben?
00:27:31 [AaronSw]
noah
00:27:50 [MorbusIff]
jesus christ, there's so many of you
00:28:12 [AaronSw]
look, it's morbus!
00:28:48 [MorbusIff]
oOohh.
00:28:55 [MorbusIff]
noah, morbus and jesus christ. nice <g>
00:29:33 [AaronSw]
whee, hall of mirrors
00:30:49 [MorbusIff]
heh.
00:31:01 [MorbusIff]
i can't stand the dock on the left hand side.
00:31:01 [MorbusIff]
i have so many thingies in mine though
00:31:18 [AaronSw]
yeah
00:31:28 [AaronSw]
the dock on the bottom just wastes so much screen space for me
00:32:08 [MorbusIff]
the thing is, the dock works perfectly at the bottom for me, cos i used those stickie folder things in 9.
00:32:08 [MorbusIff]
you know, the popup folder tab things
00:32:17 [MorbusIff]
i hate the hide feature.
00:32:28 [MorbusIff]
i man, it sounds good, but it never seems fast enough for me.
00:32:37 [MorbusIff]
and sometimes, when i'm bored and thinking, i run the mouse over the icons and watch it animate.
00:32:42 [MorbusIff]
helps me concentrate. its fucked up
00:34:27 [AaronSw]
hide feature
00:34:41 [AaronSw]
oh, the autohide thing?
00:35:00 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw stacks books
00:35:30 [MorbusIff]
yeah
00:37:01 [MorbusIff]
AaronSw, how do you report spam to razor?
00:37:12 [AaronSw]
me specifically?
00:37:14 [AaronSw]
i wrote an applescript
00:37:24 [MorbusIff]
you wanna mail it to me?
00:37:47 [AaronSw]
it's for entourage
00:41:06 [MorbusIff]
that's alright
00:41:30 [AaronSw]
it requires the python osa plugin
00:42:01 [MorbusIff]
ok. nevermidn <g>
00:42:16 [AaronSw]
heh
00:42:25 [AaronSw]
it's pretty easy, just cat the email to razor-report
00:42:41 [MorbusIff]
yaeh, i was really looking for how you did the command stuff in as.
00:43:07 [AaronSw]
ah
00:43:12 [AaronSw]
i used python :-)
00:43:16 [MorbusIff]
hehehe
00:43:22 [AaronSw]
that made it easy
00:43:41 [MorbusIff]
man, my system works real well here.
00:43:46 [AaronSw]
but i think you can call the command line from AS now
00:43:49 [MorbusIff]
i'm really happy with it.
00:43:55 [AaronSw]
too bad it won't work at work
00:43:55 [MorbusIff]
yeah, i think you can.
00:44:06 [MorbusIff]
true.
00:44:14 [MorbusIff]
thats alright though
00:44:23 [MorbusIff]
i wouldn't expect it to. it's windows.
00:44:24 [MorbusIff]
blech
00:44:32 [MorbusIff]
man, i like seeing you.
00:44:34 [MorbusIff]
whoo.
00:44:38 [MorbusIff]
man, i feel like a perv.
00:44:46 [MorbusIff]
i'm *watching* you Aaron.
00:44:50 [MorbusIff]
wanna meet somewhere? wink, wink.
00:46:08 [MorbusIff]
pringles!
00:46:20 [AaronSw]
for my antenna
00:46:21 [AaronSw]
heh, heh, reload now
00:46:24 [MorbusIff]
airport hub!
00:46:33 [MorbusIff]
BWAHAHAHA
00:47:03 [MorbusIff]
you wuv me, and you know it <g>
00:47:12 [MorbusIff]
don't make me get my cam ;)
00:47:17 [wmf]
wmf (~wmf@cs666868-69.austin.rr.com) has joined #swhack
00:47:53 [AaronSw]
ok, reload now :)
00:47:55 [AaronSw]
hey wmf
00:48:02 [wmf]
swhack
00:48:04 [MorbusIff]
heheheheh
00:48:08 [wmf]
heh
00:48:40 [MorbusIff]
evening wmf.
00:49:22 [MorbusIff]
brb
00:49:23 [MorbusIff]
MorbusIff has quit ("http://www.disobey.com/")
00:50:44 [wmf]
poor David Mc
00:50:51 [Morbus]
Morbus (morbus@s88.terminal3.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack
00:51:10 [AaronSw]
yeah, i'm tempted to go over to his house and help
00:51:51 [AaronSw]
<DMc> I'll put you on my weblog
00:51:52 [AaronSw]
<Genius> what you say !
00:52:01 [wmf]
heh
00:52:24 [wmf]
I've never set up an airport base station, so I can't really help
00:53:12 [Morbus]
* Morbus starts writing directions on eudora/spamassassin
00:55:17 [wmf]
* wmf manages to fend off some Mormon missionaries
00:55:32 [AaronSw]
they came to your apartment?
00:55:36 [wmf]
yep
00:56:02 [AaronSw]
<wmf> what are you doing here?
00:56:02 [AaronSw]
<mormans> we were sent here by are leader, THE SUPREME ASH
00:56:15 [wmf]
heh
00:56:23 [wmf]
what's the difference between Ash and God?
00:56:42 [AaronSw]
i dunno
00:56:51 [wmf]
God doesn't think he's Ash
00:56:54 [wmf]
@ http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=35008&cid=3783792
00:56:56 [AaronSw]
groan
00:56:58 [Morbus]
uh. aaron?
00:56:58 [chumpy]
A: Ransom Love to Focus on UnitedLinux from wmf
00:57:03 [AaronSw]
Morbus?
00:57:11 [wmf]
A:|C: A Dead Language?
00:57:12 [chumpy]
titled item A
00:57:21 [Morbus]
i think people will know your webcam address if they're looking at your cam
00:57:26 [AaronSw]
heh
00:57:47 [AaronSw]
not if it gets pirated!
00:57:53 [Morbus]
hehehe
00:58:02 [Morbus]
* Morbus loads it up into iCamMaster
00:58:07 [Morbus]
i'm gonna suggest it.
00:58:11 [wmf]
yeah, it always sucks when peopl warez your webcam
00:58:13 [Morbus]
you'll be pirated everywhere in a week!
00:58:16 [AaronSw]
heheh
00:58:21 [wmf]
that's why Palladium is critically important!
00:58:34 [Morbus]
say it again! *critically*
00:58:41 [AaronSw]
yeah, i'm like totally worried about my email getting pirated
00:58:48 [wmf]
for you, Morbus, anything
00:58:58 [wmf]
that's why Palladium is CRITICALLY important!
00:59:51 [wmf]
anybody know an app that can put a webcam image in the dock?
01:00:02 [bip0lar_]
bip0lar_ has left #swhack
01:00:37 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw downloads icammaster before realizing he doesn't need to watch his webcam
01:00:47 [wmf]
heh
01:00:53 [Morbus]
AaronSw, you can watch many.
01:00:58 [Morbus]
i could ship you off my folder <g>
01:01:04 [wmf]
<AaronSw> wow, this webcam is awesome
01:01:04 [AaronSw]
can you watch them in the dock?
01:01:13 [Morbus]
nope, but you can add them to the desktop
01:01:18 [AaronSw]
<AaronSw> weird -- this guy looks just like me
01:01:25 [Morbus]
its shareware though. stops after 30 minutes.
01:01:42 [Morbus]
[off] cracks are avalable, but they get blocked quickly (webcheck)
01:02:01 [wmf]
[off] firewalling, baby
01:02:18 [Morbus]
[off] heh, heh.
01:02:36 [AaronSw]
serialz.hotornot.com
01:04:25 [wmf]
I wish versiontracker could figure out that I'm using OS X
01:04:31 [AaronSw]
me too
01:04:38 [Morbus]
* Morbus chimes in
01:04:50 [wmf]
I'm sure that "OmniWeb" string in my user-agent makes it hard to tell
01:05:18 [AaronSw]
heh! maybe you're running NeXT...
01:05:56 [wmf]
* wmf tries PhotoStickies
01:10:18 [wmf]
* wmf shrinks AaronSw into the corner of his screen
01:10:38 [AaronSw]
see i have an excuse since this is fir work
01:10:52 [AaronSw]
ooh, lurk lets me shrink into the dock
01:11:11 [AaronSw]
you need a webcam, wmf
01:12:13 [wmf]
it seems that irez doesn't want to sell me a kritterdigital
01:12:23 [AaronSw]
why not?
01:13:02 [bipOlar]
bipOlar (~bipolar@adsl-64-109-205-247.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net) has joined #swhack
01:13:30 [wmf]
maybe because it's a "professional product"
01:13:59 [bipOlar]
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01:14:26 [AaronSw]
don't want kritters to be taken by the camgirls
01:14:50 [wmf]
heaven forbid that the masses should get ahold of such advanced technology
01:16:18 [AaronSw]
wow, the space shuttle has a webcam
01:27:52 [Psycho]
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01:32:15 [AaronSw]
where'd you get the tcpa-faq link, wmf?
01:32:36 [wmf]
that web site that millions of people (except you) read
01:32:43 [AaronSw]
oh
01:33:44 [wmf]
:-)
01:35:16 [boxscar]
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01:36:30 [boxscar]
whose in?
01:38:26 [AaronSw]
aha! dave farber likes it because he invented it
01:40:25 [boxscar]
i wanna copy a cd but it keeps defaulting. anybody know how to get around that lil prob?
01:42:43 [boxscar]
boxscar has left #swhack
01:45:50 [AaronSw]
if DMc got pages on his tibook thru the ABS, what's the problem?
01:46:29 [wmf]
I don't know
01:46:39 [wmf]
although it sounds like he has NAT on
01:49:26 [Morbus]
goddamit. now quickeys keeps crashing
01:53:10 [Psycho]
Psycho has quit ()
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Morbus has quit ("http://www.disobey.com/")
01:56:09 [AaronSw]
Why does the ABS need an IP?
02:15:57 [wmf]
I wish I knew what the UI for the Airport Admin Utility looked like
02:16:26 [AaronSw]
i only know what the OS 9 one looks like
02:16:38 [AaronSw]
http://www.stanford.edu/group/networking/lnaguide/docs/airportconfig.html
02:16:43 [AaronSw]
that should give you some idea, tho
02:18:39 [wmf]
I don't really trust that
02:18:59 [AaronSw]
in what sense?
02:19:05 [AaronSw]
it matches up very well with my memory
02:19:16 [wmf]
they've added some features I think
02:19:32 [AaronSw]
probably
02:22:53 [wmf]
how did you break your base station??
02:23:22 [AaronSw]
Hm, I don't remember.
02:23:42 [AaronSw]
I know it's sitting in pieces downstairs, and we own a non-Apple replacement.
02:24:48 [AaronSw]
I think it just stopped workign one day.
02:25:15 [AaronSw]
It's annoying because the new one doesn't support AppleTalk.
02:31:10 [wmf]
you could just not use AppleTalk
02:31:42 [AaronSw]
well, occasionally my brothers want to print something so i need to
02:31:44 [tansaku_xz]
tansaku_xz (~sam@mtl13gw.mtl.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp) has joined #swhack
02:31:57 [AaronSw]
i, having a paperless life, never need to print something
02:32:10 [wmf]
I don't even have a printer
02:32:22 [tansaku_xz]
I have several printers
02:32:47 [wmf]
M8K comin' soon at this rate
02:32:55 [tansaku_xz]
sometimes technical papers are difficult to digest when not on paper
03:51:09 [AaronSw]
@ http://audiogalaxy.com/articles/index.php?a=274&&
03:51:18 [chumpy]
B: The Future of Audiogalaxy from AaronSw
03:51:25 [AaronSw]
B::You get to vote!
03:51:28 [chumpy]
commented item B
03:58:31 [AaronSw]
google guy: "with that infusion of cash [from the VCs] that made my day
03:58:35 [AaronSw]
(beat)
03:58:37 [AaronSw]
a lot harder"
03:59:11 [AaronSw]
google guy is Jim Reese
04:06:13 [wmf]
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04:12:46 [AaronSw]
Google head of operations: "although we are philosphically against patents[...] we have to keep proprietary for business reasons" "we would like to contribute code back to the linux community"
04:31:29 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw <- sleep
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11:34:16 [pixel]
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11:51:54 [Morbus]
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12:35:50 [tansaku_xz]
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13:05:20 [bitsko]
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13:05:39 [Morbus]
bitsy bitsko.
13:05:47 [bitsko]
cest moi
13:18:50 [Morbus]
[[[
13:18:50 [Morbus]
Consider this a virtual pat on the back. We're actually surprised no one has found this sooner.
13:18:50 [Morbus]
I've attached a prettier way to display it.
13:18:51 [Morbus]
]]]
13:18:57 [Morbus]
i found an easter egg. and that's what I get back.
13:19:00 [Morbus]
i was hoping for a car.
13:19:28 [bitsko]
whazzat?
13:20:09 [Morbus]
in quickeys for X.
13:20:15 [Morbus]
there's a hidden window with a funny name and drawing.
13:20:22 [bitsko]
ah
13:20:23 [Morbus]
i found it last night fiddling with eudora and spamassassin
13:21:00 [tansaku_xz]
tansaku_xz has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
13:24:06 [Morbus]
[off] or at the very least, a legal serial number in my name ;)
13:25:01 [bitsko]
hehe
13:30:04 [AaronSw]
[off] heh! a speaking invite from comdex
13:30:14 [AaronSw]
[off] they'll probably card me at the show floor and not let me in
13:31:04 [Morbus]
[off] heh, heh!
13:31:15 [Morbus]
[off] tell em you're a midget and that you're offended.
13:31:20 [Morbus]
[off] then swig some beer.
13:48:21 [Morbus]
oooh, if this works well, it looks good: http://www.versiontracker.com/moreinfo.fcgi?id=15340&db=mac
13:48:47 [Morbus]
i wonder if it can detect id3 changes and save new files accordingly.
14:27:10 [pixel]
I've been using a program called Total Recorder for windows (actually bought a license).
14:27:23 [pixel]
does the same thing, does it real well.
14:27:35 [pixel]
you can even schedule it to start/stop recordings.
14:27:54 [pixel]
I have it set to record a bunch of talk shows off a local radio stations stream.
14:28:01 [bitsko]
would that be a FiMo?
14:28:16 [bitsko]
* bitsko really reached for that one
14:28:57 [pixel]
FiMo?
14:29:39 [bitsko]
TV --> TiVo, FM --> FiMo
14:29:56 [bitsko]
I tell ya, it was a reach
14:31:23 [pixel]
HEHEH
14:31:30 [pixel]
actually, it'
14:31:32 [pixel]
oops.
14:31:56 [pixel]
it'd be more like SiCo.
14:32:03 [pixel]
SoutCast TiVO :)
14:32:54 [pixel]
I have a nice little script that automatically dumps the recorded MP3s to my palm pilot (which plays MP3s), so I can listen to them on the way home from work.
14:33:31 [bitsko]
nice
14:33:43 [bitsko]
* bitsko needs toys
14:34:22 [bitsko]
next toy is the entry-level 5.1 sound system for the big tv
14:48:40 [AaronSw]
ooh, fimos are cool
14:57:33 [sbp]
fimos?
15:03:18 [pixel]
like a TiVo, only for FM radio.
15:03:23 [pixel]
FiMo.
15:03:40 [pixel]
bitsko coined that one :)
15:04:34 [Morbus]
pixel: your FiMO - does it split the songs into files?
15:04:38 [Morbus]
or is it a single large file of the stream?
15:04:55 [Morbus]
i'd love to get some game music from various broadcasts, but only if it's id3'd into ind. files.
15:05:16 [sbp]
* sbp looks up like 5 degrees and goes "oh yeah"
15:05:49 [pixel]
hmm. let me see.
15:06:19 [pixel]
it's busy. hold on.
15:07:44 [bitsko]
http://radio.weblogs.com/0100887/2002/06/27.html
15:08:56 [GabeW]
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15:09:42 [bitsko]
@ http://radio.weblogs.com/0100887/2002/06/27.html
15:09:45 [AaronSw]
"the power and richness of Windows any time and anywhere"
15:09:48 [chumpy]
C: http://radio.weblogs.com/0100887/2002/06/27.html from bitsko
15:10:01 [AaronSw]
C:|Transmeta gadgets and paradigm shift gear grinding
15:10:03 [chumpy]
titled item C
15:11:02 [bitsko]
C:describes a gadget using a Transmeta Crusoe CPU in a "PDA box" that then plugs into your desktop, then you can move into your laptop.
15:11:15 [bitsko]
C:but I have to ask, what's the big deal?
15:11:21 [AaronSw]
i didn't know transmeta made iBooks... http://www.transmeta.com/everywhere/products/notebooks/gericom/gericom_a2.html
15:12:11 [Morbus]
pixel: don't think it does.
15:12:56 [bitsko]
C:I can see the nicety of having, say, a FireWire drive with a nice PDA screen and input; but then you plug it in to your N-Way desktop or laptop and it becomes "just another CPU".
15:13:27 [lilo]
[GlobalNotice] http://www.affero.com
15:13:48 [lilo]
[GlobalNotice] Just take a look if you get a chance.
15:14:29 [AaronSw]
lilo is not a choice in the pop up menu!
15:15:54 [bitsko]
C:even better, you're running either a VM (Java, CLR) or portable binaries (Amiga VP Code) so that you can use the low-powered Transmeta Crusoe alongside your high-powered Intel or PowerPC
15:16:55 [AaronSw]
oops, it has to be two :s, bitsko
15:17:07 [AaronSw]
i.e. C::describes a gadget using a Transmeta Crusoe CPU in a "PDA box" that then plugs into your desktop, then you can move into your laptop.
15:17:11 [bitsko]
silly app, what's up with that? :)
15:17:15 [AaronSw]
heh
15:17:40 [bitsko]
C::describes a gadget using a Transmeta Crusoe CPU in a "PDA box" that then plugs into your desktop, then you can move into your laptop.
15:17:43 [chumpy]
commented item C
15:17:59 [bitsko]
C::but I have to ask, what's the big deal?
15:18:00 [chumpy]
commented item C
15:18:16 [bitsko]
C::I can see the nicety of having, say, a FireWire drive with a nice PDA screen and input; but then you plug it in to your N-Way desktop or laptop and it becomes "just another CPU".
15:18:17 [chumpy]
commented item C
15:18:35 [bitsko]
C::even better, you're running either a VM (Java, CLR) or portable binaries (Amiga VP Code) so that you can use the low-powered Transmeta Crusoe alongside your high-powered Intel or PowerPC.
15:18:37 [chumpy]
commented item C
15:25:24 [Morbus]
second entry: http://flyingchihuahuas.editthispage.com/2002/06/27
15:25:37 [bitsko]
@ http://radio.weblogs.com/0100887/2002/06/26.html
15:25:40 [chumpy]
D: http://radio.weblogs.com/0100887/2002/06/26.html from bitsko
15:25:49 [Morbus]
"I'm impressed. I don't know if I've seen anything install this easy since the days of DOS."
15:26:43 [bitsko]
Morbus: nice
15:27:03 [bitsko]
D:|the services grid
15:27:06 [chumpy]
titled item D
15:29:05 [bitsko]
D::Jon refers to Graham Glass discussing grid computing as the future, detailing the use of SOAP toolkits and "The server publishes a named interface; the client asks to bind to it; Gaia makes the connection. If multiple instances are running, work is distributed among them. If an instance dies, failover is automatic."
15:29:07 [chumpy]
commented item D
15:30:05 [bitsko]
D::This is about as non-RESTful as one can get, if it's truly as described.
15:30:07 [chumpy]
commented item D
15:30:35 [redmonk]
redmonk (sid@ip68-2-102-26.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #swhack
15:30:52 [pixel]
morb: it won't split the files.
15:31:03 [redmonk]
hello
15:32:02 [bitsko]
D::So instead of having the grid computer simply be a distributed tuple space, with everything at a URL, and processing happening asynchronously, we're locked into APIs and either synchronous or over-layered-asynchronous distributed objects.
15:32:05 [chumpy]
commented item D
15:32:48 [bitsko]
D::With a little hope that the SOAPsters are "getting" REST, the worst won't come to pass, but we'll have to wait and see.
15:32:51 [chumpy]
commented item D
15:33:22 [AaronSw]
whee, my patches were accepted: http://faifzilla.org/errors.html
15:33:36 [pixel]
anyone know of a place where I can get stock quotes in an RSS feed?
15:33:59 [pixel]
actually, any XML-based feed will do.
15:35:04 [AaronSw]
i just have plain text. xml is evil
15:35:30 [AaronSw]
if you insist... http://quotes.nasdaq.com/quote.dll?page=xml&mode=stock&symbol=WBVN&symbol=AAPL
15:38:13 [pixel]
hey. you're the RDF guy. how can you say XMl is evil?
15:38:17 [pixel]
(thanks for the link!)
15:38:26 [AaronSw]
RDF has nothing to do with XML
15:38:32 [AaronSw]
XML is very, very evil
15:38:47 [GabeW]
* GabeW introduces n3 to pixel
15:39:19 [redmonk]
* redmonk yawns at YARVSA
15:39:57 [redmonk]
(Yet Another REST Vs. SOAP Argument)
15:40:03 [GabeW]
ah
15:40:03 [pixel]
hehe
15:40:10 [GabeW]
i thought you were referring to n3 ;-)
15:40:19 [redmonk]
heh
15:40:25 [redmonk]
nah. n3 is cool.
15:40:40 [redmonk]
aaronsw - you seen reportlab?
15:40:47 [AaronSw]
no
15:40:48 [redmonk]
i just saw it - looks cool.
15:40:50 [GabeW]
and google doesn't have yarvsa
15:41:01 [redmonk]
python imaging library - for charts and stuff
15:41:11 [redmonk]
http://www.reportlab.com/toolkit/index.html
15:41:22 [GabeW]
perty kewl stuff
15:41:33 [AaronSw]
ooh
15:42:02 [redmonk]
uesed here: http://cheerleader.yoz.com/warchalk.html
15:42:11 [pixel]
I jsut ran across that this morning frmo someone's weblog.
15:42:16 [pixel]
yeah. that was it.
15:42:17 [redmonk]
to generate pdf's of warchalking symbols
15:42:17 [pixel]
hehe
15:42:48 [redmonk]
the script is here: http://cheerleader.yoz.com/warchalk.py
15:45:05 [GabeW]
my someone has too much time on their hands
15:45:48 [redmonk]
very cool though
15:53:41 [pixel]
ok, so what makes XML evil?
15:57:57 [AaronSw]
it's painful to type for documents and HTML has so many more tools
16:06:35 [Morbus]
bitsko: that guy who mentioned the DOS day thing works at microsoft apparently.
16:06:47 [Morbus]
bitsko: or, at least, he has a microsoft email address on his site
16:06:52 [Morbus]
which is pretty cool.
16:11:14 [GabeW]
is the rdf model and syntax stuff baked, baking, falling apart, what?
16:11:53 [pixel]
aaron : so I'm guessting you don't like storing RDf in XML?
16:12:02 [AaronSw]
yeah
16:12:03 [AaronSw]
<telecon>
16:12:12 [GabeW]
i think xml/rdf is rdf's biggest difficulty
16:13:50 [sbp]
yep
16:14:01 [pixel]
why is that?
16:14:19 [GabeW]
it obscures relatively simple semantic structure ..
16:14:43 [GabeW]
it takes thought to convert a circle and line diagram to and from a rdf/xml serialization
16:14:45 [pixel]
that's what XML is good at :)
16:17:13 [sbp]
obfuscating stuff? yeah
16:17:13 [Morbus]
[[[
16:17:13 [Morbus]
I like the automatic updating feature of Mac OS X. The Mac machine I inherited was running a really old version of the OS. I've installed two levels of updates so far, and doing a third level right now. It's almost as easy as updating Radio or Frontier.
16:17:14 [Morbus]
]]]
16:17:17 [Morbus]
heh, heh.
16:17:18 [Morbus]
flipping winer.
16:18:44 [pixel]
he can't make up his mind. today he's touting the wonderful Mac. and yesterday it was a peice of shit.
16:42:01 [bitsko]
otoh, rdf's second biggest difficulty is the ambiguity thrown in by most RDF techies
16:42:28 [bitsko]
far worse than, say, vCard's modifiers
16:44:20 [Morbus]
there's no human in rdf.
16:44:38 [Morbus]
its turning into it's own programming language.
16:46:23 [Morbus]
of course, that's my impression.
16:46:27 [bitsko]
it's not so much the data model, as much how you can (and some try so hard to do) make statements about statements about statements
16:46:31 [Morbus]
* Morbus backpedals, because he desires the love of bitsko
16:47:00 [bitsko]
* bitsko leans in for the hug, and then backpedals himself
16:47:50 [Morbus]
heh!
16:48:13 [Morbus]
i mean, i get the purpose of rdf.
16:48:17 [Morbus]
but i don't "get" the complexity.
16:48:32 [Morbus]
and i've been over this a zillion times with sbp and aaron.
16:49:00 [bitsko]
you don't get where it's complex, or just don't get how RDF can be so complex?
16:49:25 [bitsko]
the "simple" part of RDF is actually very simple
16:50:37 [Morbus]
"can be so", i think.
16:54:17 [sbp]
it's because there have been a lot of people expressing their opinions on various bits of the architecture
16:54:24 [sbp]
committee thinking
16:54:39 [sbp]
so RDF kinda has a mind of its own
16:54:56 [sbp]
but as bitsko says, at the base it's really simple
16:55:03 [bitsko]
if one sticks to the node-view, and has a concrete schema, it's really simple. like core-RDF, for example
16:55:10 [bitsko]
s/core-RDF/core-RSS/
16:55:36 [bitsko]
ie. as long as you're talking about one resource, and just its properties, that's easy
16:55:54 [bitsko]
it maps right to mappings/hashes/objects, for example
16:56:06 [sbp]
there's a great tension between constraints on the model and application level constraints, such as you get in RSS
16:56:15 [AaronSw]
RDF is very simple
16:56:21 [bitsko]
hehe
16:56:25 [AaronSw]
RDF is way simpler than XML
16:56:25 [bitsko]
that's funny
16:56:44 [redmonk]
that'sm like saying English is simple b/c it has verbs, nouns, and objects
16:56:45 [bitsko]
RDF is not simple when you start making statements about statements
16:56:51 [sbp]
yeah compare the core bits of RDF (RDF infoset?) to the XML infoset
16:56:57 [sbp]
no, even with reification, it's simpler
16:57:02 [bitsko]
nor when you have no concrete schema
16:57:08 [sbp]
reification is just a set of three properties, plus an implied type
16:57:11 [bitsko]
simpler than?
16:57:17 [sbp]
of course, one can build complex applications on RDF...
16:57:18 [Morbus]
see, you know, i'm already lost.
16:57:21 [Morbus]
<g>
16:57:26 [sbp]
but that's something on top of RDF, not RDF itself
16:57:31 [sbp]
one can express the XML infoset in RDF
16:57:43 [bitsko]
there's really no analogy of statements-about-statements in most existing frameworks
16:58:23 [sbp]
huh?
16:58:46 [sbp]
anything where you have a set of statements there's some type of reification or context at work
16:59:52 [oierw]
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17:00:32 [sbp]
hehe: http://ioctl.org/rdf/usementionmyarse
17:00:49 [sbp]
Gotta run
17:02:16 [bitsko]
if I have an RSS item, and it has a dc:date, and that dc:date might be the creation date or might be a posted date, then it really starts to bog down
17:02:40 [AaronSw]
why?
17:03:38 [Morbus]
i'll be using dc:dates in the next version of ampheta.
17:04:14 [bitsko]
AaronSw: because it starts becoming unmanagable
17:04:27 [AaronSw]
thats fud
17:04:30 [Morbus]
i won't be making a diff between create/post in ampheta.
17:04:31 [bitsko]
thx
17:04:35 [AaronSw]
:-)
17:04:36 [Morbus]
i don't think there's a need to.
17:05:07 [AaronSw]
sorry, on phone
17:05:21 [eikeon]
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17:07:01 [bitsko]
on the one hand, existing languages do not have the native language facilities for accessing the data model, so one must use an RDF library, and in particular an RDF Query language, to easily get to concretely specified (schema'd) data
17:07:32 [bitsko]
so one can generally throw out Py, Perl, or C# syntax for accessing properties
17:08:17 [bitsko]
(let's say that's a given, and we'll shortly come up with a native-syntax for accessing deep RDF properties, based on an RDF Query lang)
17:08:44 [bitsko]
then there's still the problem of "too-much-data"
17:09:29 [bitsko]
that's the problem outside the boundaries of concretely specified app models
17:09:53 [bitsko]
and becomes especially apparent as one builds soups of RDF data from a variety of sources
17:19:59 [bitsko]
where's the RNG equiv for RDF? http://www.xmlhack.com/read.php?item=1700
17:20:44 [bitsko]
maybe that's the wrong q.
17:22:22 [bitsko]
a different q would be where's the simple-syntax for RDFS :)
17:25:05 [pixel]
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17:26:31 [bitsko]
Morbus: but just for reference, the simple stuff is simple
17:26:46 [bitsko]
and easily translated into Perl ;)
17:27:56 [Morbus]
heh, heh. oh, i was supposed to be listening? <G>
17:28:00 [Morbus]
i got confused about 100 lines ago.
17:28:19 [Morbus]
we should code an RDF::Simple module.
17:28:20 [Morbus]
<G>
17:28:36 [bitsko]
* bitsko mumbles Orchard, then shuts up
17:28:41 [Morbus]
heh, he.h
17:28:41 [bitsko]
:)
17:36:38 [bitsko]
RDFS Compact Syntax -- that's what I meant earlier about RNG-equiv for RDFS
17:36:58 [bitsko]
(there's no such beast, I think, but getting one would be nice)
17:49:23 [AaronSw]
lol
17:49:42 [AaronSw]
NewsForge's response to complaints about the quality of their articles:
17:49:47 [AaronSw]
>blah, blah, blah blather <snip>
17:49:47 [AaronSw]
So?
17:50:49 [bitsko]
heh
17:53:35 [Morbus]
heh, heh.
17:54:05 [bitsko]
* bitsko wonders if AaronSw is off phone yet
17:55:51 [AaronSw]
nope
18:01:49 [eikeon]
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18:14:37 [AaronSw]
am now
18:14:43 [AaronSw]
what's up, bitsko?
18:15:48 [bitsko]
I was hoping you'd explain how the more complex parts of RDF become easy.
18:16:00 [AaronSw]
What's complex about RDF?
18:16:04 [bitsko]
I know a good query syntax can take one half the way
18:16:22 [Morbus]
http://www.peerfear.org/rss/permalink/1025291190.shtml
18:16:50 [Morbus]
brb. new trillian skin.
18:18:26 [Morbus]
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18:18:41 [Morbus]
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18:19:29 [bitsko]
the complex part is statements about statements
18:20:12 [Morbus]
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18:20:23 [bitsko]
* bitsko sees Morbus bug out ;)
18:20:30 [Morbus]
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18:20:59 [AaronSw]
statements about statements are conceptually simple (morbus said DW is lying)
18:21:04 [AaronSw]
what's complex about them?
18:22:29 [Morbus]
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18:31:33 [AaronSw]
sbp, want to write a regexp for me?
18:33:51 [oierw]
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18:35:57 [AaronSw]
another busy day of moping
18:48:38 [bitsko]
conceptually simple, but programattically difficult to resolve
18:49:19 [bitsko]
unless made very concrete. iow, as long as everything is spelled out concretely, it's easy.
18:49:32 [AaronSw]
i don't know what you mean by conterely here
18:50:37 [bitsko]
where the information provider spells out exactly which statements can be made about other statements
18:51:15 [AaronSw]
information provider? i like the model where the reader just ignores the statements they're not interested in
18:51:57 [bitsko]
heh, that's a useful principle until all the statements you're interested in happen to be layered over everything else.
18:52:04 [AaronSw]
layered?
18:59:18 [bitsko]
n'er mind. I'll continue to watch as practical applications come about.
18:59:37 [AaronSw]
heh
19:25:30 [oierw]
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19:32:02 [bitsko]
have a good weekend, y'all!
19:32:04 [bitsko]
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19:49:46 [sbp]
* sbp returns
19:49:46 [eikeon]
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19:49:48 [sbp]
was just watching Ash play at Glastonbury
19:49:48 [eikeon]
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19:49:50 [sbp]
good set; I thought they did more songs, but they only showed quarter of an hour's worth
19:49:54 [sbp]
I could have sworn they were out for half an hour (they were doing interviews when they were playing live)
19:50:08 [AaronSw]
Ash sings too? i don't want to know what that sounds like
19:50:20 [AaronSw]
EEEEEEEEYE LOVE TEH LUNIX! TEH LUNIX!
19:50:44 [Morbus]
loll.
19:52:31 [sbp]
heh!
19:52:32 [sbp]
[[[
19:52:32 [sbp]
Joseph Reagle wrote:
19:52:33 [sbp]
>blah, blah, blah blather <snip>
19:52:33 [sbp]
So?
19:52:33 [sbp]
Tina G.
19:52:34 [sbp]
]]]
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19:53:29 [AaronSw]
as i said, dedicated to journalistic principles
20:05:10 [AaronSw]
newsforge...liesforge...
20:05:22 [sbp]
wow, the guy from the Thin Blue Line is on Eastenders now
20:28:44 [Morbus]
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20:41:37 [thelsdj]
* thelsdj is getting a mac
20:44:06 [thelsdj]
i'm having someone fix up an ol G3 for me
21:07:21 [sbp]
cool, what specs?
21:08:56 [sbp]
not that it matters. a Mac is a Mac :-)
21:30:54 [thelsdj]
its like a base G3 266 with processor upgrade to 300 (probably can overclock it to 350) 256 ram, ide, usb card, uh not much else heh, i'm getting it cheeeap
22:13:14 [GabeW]
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23:00:03 [AaronSw]
duuude, you're getting a mac!
23:08:57 [wmf]
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23:09:04 [wmf]
swhack
23:09:10 [AaronSw]
wmf
23:09:33 [AaronSw]
am i required to heckle steven levy? or is it only highly recommended?
23:09:44 [wmf]
I'm not heckling him
23:10:43 [AaronSw]
I think McCusker's going to kill you ;)
23:10:49 [wmf]
the poll is funny too: http://www.joyoftech.com/joyoftech/index.html
23:11:00 [wmf]
I feel bad that I f'd his base station
23:12:20 [wmf]
anyway, hopefully he'll get it right tonight
23:12:50 [wmf]
[off] people in #infoAnarchy are advertising how losing they are
23:48:21 [AaronSw]
EOW
23:56:39 [wmf]
@ http://www.advogato.org/article/508.html
23:56:45 [chumpy]
E: http://www.advogato.org/article/508.html from wmf
23:56:57 [wmf]
E::Fire when ready.
23:56:58 [chumpy]
commented item E