00:02:30 <AaronSw> wow, that really sccrewed things up
00:03:04 <AaronSw> uh oh. i forgot my password
00:03:14 <AaronSw> hm, no, i remember it but it's not working
00:03:18 <AaronSw> that's worse
00:05:38 <AaronSw> heh, #perl says welcome to #herd-think and #python says welcome to #perl
00:05:46 <Morbus> heh
00:06:01 <sbp> heh, neat
00:07:57 <AaronSw> ok, let the scrollage begin
00:08:08 <thelsdj> http://ipwebdev.com/search.php
00:08:16 <thelsdj> that finds artist feeds for ya
00:09:31 <AaronSw> --
00:09:31 <AaronSw> <xsdg:#openprojects> sangr: #football to vote on the world cup
00:09:31 <AaronSw> <everwicked:#vorbis> lo
00:09:31 <AaronSw> <sarnold:#kernelnewbies> Beregorn__ -- not really. it varies. some are stable
00:09:31 <AaronSw>                          for days, others can't boot, others boot but eat
00:09:32 <AaronSw>                          filesystems in the process. :)
00:09:34 <AaronSw> <exarkun:#linuxhelp> OLD FOGEY
00:09:36 <AaronSw> <arioch:#openprojects> *BSD IS DYING
00:09:38 <AaronSw> -:- xlnx-x [~Dobbs@dhcp160-88-151-24.wd01-c3.cpe.charter-ne.com] has joined #c
00:09:40 <AaronSw> <segher:#vorbis> windows, osx, os9, ***bsd, linux.
00:09:42 <AaronSw> <karynn:#linuxhelp> ayip
00:09:44 <AaronSw> <infirmity:#openprojects> oh me
00:09:46 <AaronSw> --
00:10:28 <AaronSw> heh
00:10:37 <AaronSw> Cybersoft is joining every channel X and saying
00:10:38 <AaronSw> X sucks
00:10:38 <AaronSw> bye
00:11:16 <sbp> heh
00:11:29 <walloper> <MysticOne> Good morning (OPN time) everyone.  MysticOne here with a reminder for those of you who missed it last night, WOPN will be coming online again for tonight's show in about 10 minutes.  If you're interested in helping us continue to test it, and giving us your opinions on the content and idea, join #WOPN, listen in, and let us know ... Thank you for your time, and as always we appreciate your using the Open Projects Network.
00:11:49 <AaronSw> oh shoot, moz.party
00:12:22 <walloper> <MysticOne> This is a wallops message.  These usually contain non-critical information pertaining to the network and its operation.  To not receive these messages, simply type /mode YourNick -w.  Thanks for your patronage and have a nice day.
00:13:37 <AaronSw> oh, phew, still got a few hours
00:26:27 <AaronSw> burton on OCS: "it is way too rdf to be used in the real world"
00:34:06 <AaronSw> hm. shiftclivcj is hard w 1 hand
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00:45:27 <wmf> wmf (~wmf@cs666868-69.austin.rr.com) has joined #swhack
00:45:39 <wmf> swhack!
00:46:05 <MorbusIff> wmf!
00:47:02 <AaronSw> wmfy
00:47:14 <sbp> really? open a window, then
00:47:27 <AaronSw> huh?
00:55:28 <AaronSw> joseph reagle = nrrdboy?
00:55:32 <AaronSw> qwierd
00:58:42 <walloper> <MysticOne> Still looking for more listeners ... if you have some bandwidth to spare and an ogg vorbis decoder, please stop by #WOPN to get the URLs to WOPN, Open Projects Radio ... an ogg vorbis stream of free music, free ideas, and... well, freedom.  Thanks :)
00:58:55 <walloper> <MysticOne> This is a wallops message.  These usually contain non-critical information pertaining to the network and its operation.  To not receive these messages, simply type /mode YourNick -w.  Thanks for your patronage and have a nice day.
00:59:51 <AaronSw> *** YourNick: No such nick/channel
01:00:05 <sbp> heh, heh
01:04:09 <deus_x> deus_x (~deus_x@bgp995433bgs.nanarb01.mi.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
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01:07:45 <AaronSw> where's mouthbeff?
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01:37:01 <AaronSw> ooh, massinova is back
01:37:46 <AaronSw> i hate downloads that indirect thru versiontracker or cnet back to the original site
01:44:42 <AaronSw> lol, google has a new type of ad: "shameless self-promotion"
01:58:31 <walloper> <lilo> Hi all.  Problems continue with hubbing arrangements for Oz.  If you think you might be able to provide a hub in that area, we're looking at about 40K bits per second average, a fair amount of international traffic.  Please take a look at http://openprojects.net/sponsoring_servers.shtml and email lilo@openprojects.net .... thanks.
02:16:20 <AaronSw> hee: http://www.splode.com/img/mosaic1.2-google.jpg
02:16:56 <Acapnotic> heh!
02:18:08 <Acapnotic> what's the wacky eyeball where the form should be?
02:24:57 <AaronSw> um, that's the mosaic logo
02:26:23 <Acapnotic> indeed, but what's it doing there?
02:30:06 <AaronSw> probably apologizing for its lack of form support
02:49:44 <sbp> lol!
02:53:58 <sbp> Gotta run
02:55:17 <deltab> away from the sun?
03:14:57 <walloper> walloper has quit (bear.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)
03:17:00 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Hi all.  Lost one of the newer rotation servers.  Splits don't show the real server btw. Investigating.
03:22:12 <walloper> walloper (~nobody@63.149.73.20) has joined #swhack
03:26:15 <AaronSw> * AaronSw cleans up his tibook for sending into apple repair
03:26:48 <AaronSw> s/into/in to/
03:27:54 <AaronSw> argh, i'm missing the short screw
03:28:52 <Acapnotic> Acapnotic has changed the topic to: <AaronSw> argh, i'm missing the short screw
03:38:56 <AaronSw> heh, i had a feeling that might happen
03:39:18 <AaronSw> AaronSw has changed the topic to: nelsonfunk: xanadu, xanadu, xanadu, xanadu
03:39:27 <wmf> heh
03:39:35 <Acapnotic> yeah, it was a little too easy.
03:40:47 <AaronSw> aargh! how could apple.com forget my dispatch id so fast?
03:53:45 <deus_x> The topic makes me want to sing.
04:02:11 <deltab> AaronSw: I have some small changes to suggest for your Google weblog
04:02:23 <AaronSw> Go right ahead.
04:03:18 <deltab> the relative links in the Mozilla Googlebar quote should be changed
04:04:15 <deltab> (since xml:base or xlink:base or whatever isn't supported :-)
04:04:16 <AaronSw> oops
04:04:57 <AaronSw> fixed.
04:05:16 <deltab> "www2.google.com" should link to http://www2.google.com/ not http://www.google.com/
04:05:42 <deltab> "took" should be "takes"
04:06:16 <AaronSw> yeah... i was sort of uncomfortable editing the blockquote. guess it can't hurt
04:06:49 <deltab> what blockquote?
04:07:02 <AaronSw> that text is in a blockquote
04:07:20 <deltab> ohh
04:07:35 <deltab> the indentation changes, making it not look like a quote
04:07:53 <AaronSw> um, isn't that how blockquotes are indicated?
04:08:20 <deltab> I mean the second paragraph of it is unindented
04:08:33 <AaronSw> hm, not on my browser...
04:08:56 <deltab> aha: <p><blockquote>Once in a month Google calculates the pagerank of each page and c...
04:09:01 <AaronSw> guess i need to turn off convert breaks
04:09:10 <deltab> should be <blockquote><p>
04:09:51 <deltab> ah
04:10:25 <AaronSw> * AaronSw attempts to validate
04:10:38 <deltab> ah, so it's your CMS putting in the tags
04:10:42 <AaronSw> yep
04:10:58 <deltab> but apparently not the link to www2.google.com
04:11:10 <AaronSw> yeah, that was me. :)
04:13:30 <AaronSw> "Sorry, I am unable to validate this document because on line 665 it contained some byte(s) that I cannot interpret as utf-8. Please check both the content of the file and the character encoding indication. 
04:13:31 <AaronSw> "
04:14:48 <AaronSw> oh, it's that darn frederic
04:16:41 <AaronSw> what's the character code for eacute?
04:18:38 <AaronSw> &#83;?
04:18:46 <deltab> no
04:18:54 <deltab> that's S
04:19:09 <deltab> use &eacute;
04:19:25 <AaronSw> i can't, i've got an rss feed
04:19:31 <deltab> ah
04:20:01 <deltab> 233
04:20:42 <AaronSw> cool
04:21:13 <deltab> <c3 a9> as UTF-8
04:23:03 <wmf> wmf has quit ("BitchX: stays crunchy in milk!")
04:29:33 <deltab> I suspect "Google Igpay Atinlay" is meant to be linked to http://www.google.com/intl/xx-piglatin/
04:31:04 <AaronSw> Man, I screwed quite a bit up.
04:31:22 <deltab> the SearchDay quote also needs its tags rearranged
04:35:03 <walloper> <lilo> Really nice material on WOPN atm.
04:36:09 <AaronSw> searchday: fixed
04:36:19 <AaronSw> too bad I can't hear WOPN :(
04:38:45 <deltab> a space after "article" in Google Copycats
04:39:39 <deltab> a link from "t23" to http://dmoz.org/profiles/t23.html would be nice
04:39:54 <AaronSw> I had that, but it made me two degrees away from pron.
04:40:13 <deltab> I was wondering what t23 was, and whether I should have heard of it
04:40:26 <AaronSw> ah, ok
04:40:33 <deltab> ah
04:41:03 <deltab> so it oculd adversely affect your pagerank
04:41:22 <walloper> <lilo> News on that rotation server outage earlier.  It appears that the provider's upstream suffered a DDoS in the middle of a 2-gigabit bandwidth upgrade.  So we'll leave that server out of rotation for now, but if it looks stable, we'll be able to add it back after a decent interval.  Thanks.
04:41:28 <deltab> (I need to learn how to type "could")
04:42:31 <AaronSw> how about (managed by dmoz contributor t23)
04:42:39 <deltab> yeah
04:42:47 <deltab> that'd be great
04:42:53 <AaronSw> k
04:42:58 <AaronSw> i wish i had time to fix all these validation bugs
04:43:51 <AaronSw> aargh
04:44:52 <deltab> yikes
04:45:08 <deltab> can you make your CMS fix them?
04:46:30 <AaronSw> i just tried that and it screwed up twenty entries with no undo, thus the aargh
04:46:41 <deltab> oh :-(
04:47:10 <deltab> got a backup?
04:47:27 <AaronSw> i'm copying and pasting from an open window i have with the source
04:48:05 <deltab> sorry to cause you this trouble
04:48:22 <AaronSw> no, it's not your fault at all
04:50:54 <AaronSw> it's either mt usability or my inability to distinguish between "SEARCH" and "REPLACE" buttons
04:51:31 <deltab> the former - no undo, you say?
04:51:45 <AaronSw> yeah. it has a big warning before you search saying so
04:51:53 <deltab> ugh
04:52:32 <deltab> well, that's better than no warning I suppose
04:52:40 <deltab> but why can't it undo?
04:53:17 <AaronSw> because then it would have to do journaling
04:53:46 <deltab> ah
04:54:51 <deltab> I wonder how hard that would be, especially compared to manually undoing
04:55:58 <AaronSw> yeah. otoh, it won't help you after you've already screwed up, so there's not a ton of incentive
05:01:22 <AaronSw> oh shoot. just closed the window i was working from
05:03:07 <AaronSw> * AaronSw grabs a recent backup from google
05:05:42 <deltab> I have a more recent version
05:06:51 <AaronSw> it's ok, i already fixed the recent entries
05:11:11 <AaronSw> phew, all done
05:21:19 <deltab> I was going to suggest Beta and Labs sections for the links at the top, but you're probably not wanting to make any more changes yet :-)
05:22:32 <AaronSw> heh
05:22:36 <deltab> haha, http://www.mozilla.org/party/2002/ has a typo on the first line
05:22:37 <AaronSw> Beta?
05:23:11 <deltab> for catalogs, news, language tools, etc.
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05:23:32 <AaronSw> argh
05:23:34 <deltab> er, translate
05:24:07 <AaronSw> template changes are easy
05:24:45 <AaronSw> i already have translate up there...
05:25:49 <deltab> I mean separating them from the production services
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05:36:33 <AaronSw> what kind of lyrics are these? ISA and IRQs?
05:36:49 <AaronSw> i consider google catalogs and such production
05:37:12 <AaronSw> "me and my computer. oh, baby i'm a user"
05:37:53 <deltab> they don't
05:38:22 <deltab> that's why they put BETA next to the logo :-)
05:38:55 <AaronSw> I think they do consider them production services...
05:39:00 <AaronSw> but the code isn't fully-baked
05:39:10 <deltab> that's beta
05:40:44 <deltab> what lyrics?
05:41:06 <AaronSw> at the mozilla.party
05:50:14 <deltab> ah
05:50:29 <deltab> * deltab manages to get recognisable sound out of a stream
05:57:52 <AaronSw> why do i get the feeling that the tiny print in this NSA advert does not pleade for you to use RSA. http://www.adage.com/images/random/lips03_big.jpg
06:01:24 <AaronSw> g'nite
06:01:40 <deltab> RSA specifically?
06:02:32 <deltab> hmm, I think I can read most of that
06:05:24 <lemonodor> i'd love to get high res versions of those
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08:22:26 <sbp> * sbp waves
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14:46:58 <AaronSw> aaargh
14:47:07 <bitsko> gaahhh!
15:05:02 <AaronSw> aasaaarhg
15:05:14 <bitsko> and this, http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/Technical/2002-06-11.01.html/
15:05:32 <bitsko> is why I think Apple's Obj-C is broken at the lowest levels.
15:05:53 <bitsko> (note, that's "Apple's", not necessarily Obj-C in all flavours)
15:06:14 <AaronSw> how would you fix it?
15:06:35 <bitsko> and I have heard the staunchest proponents of Apple's Obj-C actually promote that this is all a "good thing"
15:06:43 <bitsko> Garbage collection for one.
15:07:04 <bitsko> 2) drop the OO-Purist attitude about accessors
15:07:30 <bitsko> accessors are a factoring, not a given
15:08:00 <bitsko> iow, Python gets this right.
15:08:15 <AaronSw> woo!
15:08:22 <deus_x> I feel dumb, but:  What do you think is broken about the accessors in that article?  the memory management?
15:08:58 <bitsko> David Stes' Obj-C does GC.
15:09:11 <deus_x> Obj-C without the retain/release?
15:09:14 <bitsko> the memory management is one part, it shouldn't be necessary
15:09:16 <bitsko> yes
15:09:29 <bitsko> works beautifully.
15:10:02 <AaronSw> wait, apple objc doesn't do gc? aaaefhgsaujs
15:10:07 <bitsko> no marked difference in execution performance (give and take, mostly)
15:10:32 <bitsko> nope.  didn't know that?
15:10:52 <AaronSw> nop
15:10:53 <deus_x> I just started getting my hands dirty in Cocoa, and I love it, though the memory management is my most hated part.
15:12:07 <bitsko> iirc, mainline GNU Obj-C gives the option now.  the main resistance is from Apple and refactoring the Cocoa library
15:13:08 <bitsko> GC has different warts, of course
15:13:41 <bitsko> usually those warts are in hard to see spots, though.
15:14:09 <bitsko> all of the GC warts can be worked around, too
15:15:12 <deus_x> I wonder if one could make a GC framework to toss in?  Like another autorelease pool or something that GCs on a thread?
15:15:25 <bitsko> the other part about accessors that is broken is that they shouldn't be necessary.  there's no reason you shouldn't just be able to just read/write a property directly in 80-90% of the cases -- and it's at least an order of magnitude faster
15:15:41 <deus_x> Ahh, I see.  That's what you meant about the OO-purist attitude.
15:16:37 <bitsko> I think they've tried GC a couple of times, but the hard part is that the code for retain/release is already there (hard to no-op), and it shifts your warts around.
15:16:41 <AaronSw> "But when she asked Matt why she couldn't make CNN.com any larger, Matt launched into one of his geek tirades with lots of big technical words, got very frustrated, and finally said there was nothing he could do.
15:16:41 <AaronSw> "
15:17:28 <bitsko> if anyone ever wonders why Cocoa apps are slow, that article explains probably half of it right there.
15:17:42 <bitsko> <sigh>
15:18:40 <bitsko> by coincidence, I've "worked" with John Randolph and Don Yacktman as attributed in that article ;)
15:19:14 <bitsko> never on the same projects tho -- never met them in person
15:21:56 <bitsko> as a warning: never suggest this kind of stuff to a NeXT/Apple veteran.  you'll get fried
15:22:14 <deus_x> I could imagine :)
15:22:29 <bitsko> they are so entrenched it will take word from God^H^H^H Jobs to change it
15:23:57 <bitsko> and mind you, even with those criticisms Obj-C is a good two orders better than C++, and possibly more than a good deal better than Java
15:26:20 <bitsko> it's also faster than Python, a little bit
15:26:59 <deus_x> I keep wanting to dig into GNUStep some more.  Though I love working with Cocoa, I hate being stuck with just OS X
15:28:14 <bitsko> from what I hear, GNUStep is very capable now.  most people's "starter apps" should work on GS
15:28:22 <bitsko> it's usually the broader things that don't work
15:28:23 <deus_x> But that memory management thing still has me confused, especially after having been buried in perl and java for years
15:28:35 <bitsko> :(  I know
15:29:25 <AaronSw> i wish they'd hurry up nd finish pyobjc
15:30:54 <deus_x> That would be very nifty.  Might just make me stop looking at Camelbones.  (Man I wish I could escape Perl :) )
15:34:00 <AaronSw> pyobjc ias actually pretty far along
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15:41:30 <walloper> <lilo> This is a WALLOPS message for the Open Projects Network.  These messages contain non-critical comments and announcements and detailed server admin information.  To turn them off, turn off user mode 'w'.  On most clients: '/mode <yournick> -w'.  Thanks.
15:42:32 <walloper> <lilo> Hmmm:  http://www.kclug.org/old_archives/linux-activists/1992/jun/1/0396.shtml .... just under a couple of hours till the ten year anniversary of my first post.  If you're an oldtimer at Linux, *bsd, anything to do with computers, or just want to stop in, drop by #oldtimers to celebrate with me.  Thanks.
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15:57:40 <walloper> <lilo> Hi all.  Just a reminder.  If you're a community person looking for work, or you're looking for someone to fill a job, please stop by #jobs.  Thanks.
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16:02:05 <AaronSw-BX> anyone know how to switch windows in BX on OS X?
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16:14:56 <AaronSw> testing
16:20:29 <deus_x> gnitset
16:22:03 <AaronSw> foo
16:22:07 <deus_x> Bar
16:22:08 <AaronSw-BX> ah, cool
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16:43:11 <Morbus> whoo!
16:43:12 <Morbus> [[[
16:43:12 <Morbus> I own Radio 8, but somehow never got into reading the newsfeeds there. I'm not sure what the limitation was; perhaps I just wasn't ready and I discovered AmphetaDesk at the right time. Perhaps it's because AmphetaDesk only does aggregation. 
16:43:13 <Morbus> ]]]
16:57:03 <bitsko> cool.  who's that?
16:57:26 <Morbus> http://sapid.com/tww/archives/2002/06/12.html#000099
16:59:08 <bitsko> nice segway: and now we just have to move from well-structured to well-modeled data :)
17:00:08 <Morbus> heh, heh.
17:02:54 <bitsko> grr, http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2002/06/12/trove.html
17:03:21 <bitsko> Change collection creation: 
17:03:21 <bitsko> Map map = new THashMap();   // trove version of hashmap
17:03:41 <bitsko>  // Map map = new HashMap(); // standard hashmap
17:03:53 <bitsko> """You can see the leading T in the Trove classes. This is there to prevent name collisions, and means you don't have to fully qualify all collections (e.g. java.util.HashMap vs. gnu.trove.HashMap)"""
17:04:24 <bitsko> isn't that what name qualification is all the Effing about?!
17:04:57 <AaronSw> heh
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17:11:09 <bitsko> Flutterby's authentication is not helping me.  Here's a wish for the auth/auth problem to be solved in my lifetime  <!>
17:15:16 <bitsko> deus_x: when you do find out the real usefulness of XSLT, let all the rest of us in on the secret  :)
17:19:52 <AaronSw> whee, mathematica explorer came
17:28:09 <deus_x> * deus_x comes back from lunch.
17:28:19 <deus_x> bitsko: Heh, uh oh.  That does not bode well :)
17:29:15 <bitsko> it's not all that bad, but like RDF it could do with a new syntax more than a new model
17:29:53 <bitsko> there is a far better syntax (with language included), but *sshhhh* (it's in Scheme)
17:33:11 <AaronSw> Pi nmeonic: "How I want a drink, alcoholic of course, after the heavy lectures involving quantum mechanics."
17:33:13 <deus_x> I kept thinking it would look better if it weren't all mega-verbose XML :)
17:33:36 <deus_x> Whoa, that's a neat mnemonic :)
17:33:57 <deus_x> Hmm, I also need to learn Scheme
17:38:27 <bitsko> Scheme, LISP, same thing ;)
17:38:49 <deus_x> They both vaguely hurt my branes.
17:44:01 <Morbus> man, this webhsu guy is just asking for hand-holding.
17:44:53 <deus_x> http://members.tripod.com/WeberHsu/biography.html ?
17:45:11 <Morbus> oh man.
17:45:13 <Morbus> bwahaha.
17:46:22 <deus_x> Help me, I can't stop the Google reflex
17:46:40 <Morbus> gasp. i fell in rank at sf. dammit.
17:47:04 <deus_x> Better check some crap code in quick, get some of that cred back.
17:47:16 <Morbus> yeah, no shit. 
17:47:21 <Morbus> i know, i'll check spelling.
17:47:32 <bitsko> hehe
17:47:34 <deus_x> Convert some spaces to tabs, then tabs to spaces.
17:47:37 <Morbus> heh!
17:47:43 <Morbus> i'll convert my TODO list into feature requests on the tracker.
17:48:02 <Morbus> i hate tabs.
17:48:24 <deus_x> You might like to hear that I set all my copies of xemacs to use spaces.
17:48:37 <Morbus> good, good. 
17:48:44 <Morbus> i've done the same for my bbedit :)
17:48:54 <deus_x> Oh yeah, I could do that too
17:49:02 <AaronSw> i set all my copies of morbus to use tabs
17:49:06 <Morbus> bwahahaah.
17:49:13 <Morbus> that's why i act this way. user error.'
17:49:48 <deus_x> Hah
17:50:00 <AaronSw> *** Morbus is ~morbus@morbus.totalnetnh.net (** my owner is too lame to read Morbus.conf **)
17:50:35 <gac> gac (~chatzilla@gw.wamsystems.com) has joined #swhack
17:50:38 <Morbus> heh, heh.
17:51:35 <Morbus> man, all my "favorite" SF projects have had no activity in the past week.
17:51:38 <Morbus> thats horrible.
17:52:03 <deus_x> Break into them and move some stuff around.
17:52:32 <AaronSw> SF Bulletin: SourceForge was broken into last night by a hacker who converted all tabs to spaces.
17:52:39 <Morbus> heh, heh.
17:52:42 <deus_x> ROFL
17:54:55 <davb> davb (~chatzilla@rrcs-nys-24-97-22-204.biz.rr.com) has joined #swhack
17:59:01 <Morbus> Morbus has quit ("http://www.disobey.com/")
18:03:26 <sbp> sbp has quit (Remote closed the connection)
18:04:24 <sbp> sbp (~sean@63.149.73.20) has joined #swhack
18:05:05 <sbp> argh, why does it keep doing that?
18:10:33 <Morbus> Morbus (~morbus@morbus.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack
18:12:27 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Hi all.  If you haven't had a chance, please take a look at http://somegeek.org/status.html (11 June).  The site will be pretty overloaded but do take a look.  Thanks.
18:14:43 <pixel> pixel is now known as pixel_bitch
18:31:03 <AaronSw> Heh, I'm adding 6000 spams to razor. my load is at 10
18:31:13 <AaronSw>  14:31:32 up 49 days, 2 min,  2 users,  load average: 10.54, 4.74, 1.81
18:33:10 <AaronSw> yikes, 11
18:33:14 <AaronSw> 12
18:33:33 <Morbus> you know.
18:33:35 <AaronSw> 13
18:33:38 <AaronSw> this is getting out of hand
18:33:45 <Morbus> did you put it on your OS X box?
18:33:49 <AaronSw> no
18:34:56 <AaronSw> * AaronSw tries again with -f
18:35:01 <Morbus> ben from mt made some instrs on how.
18:35:11 <AaronSw> hwow to do what?
18:35:17 <Morbus> install SA
18:36:05 <AaronSw> ah
18:36:10 <AaronSw> just saw on boingboing
18:37:43 <AaronSw> razor2's got fuzzy matching and trust stuff
18:40:41 <AaronSw> AaronSw has changed the topic to: HAPPY BURTHDTAY TO TEH ASH!!!!
18:40:57 <Morbus> it's Ash's birthday!?
18:41:01 <Morbus> i gotta buy him some thongs!
19:06:27 <walloper> <lilo> This is a WALLOPS message for the Open Projects Network.  These messages contain non-critical comments and announcements and detailed server admin information.  To turn them off, turn off user mode 'w'.  On most clients: '/mode <yournick> -w'.  Thanks.
19:16:25 <timmay> timmay (~trillian@vulcana.arbitron.com) has joined #swhack
19:16:39 <Morbus> timmay!
19:16:58 <timmay> timmmmmayyyy
19:17:17 <Morbus>  <trillian for timmay reply: to enter admin mode, type !admin>
19:17:23 <Morbus> have you secured your trillian yet?
19:17:28 <Morbus> its still accepting admin stuff.
19:17:38 <timmay> !admin
19:17:45 <Morbus> no silly, not in the room.
19:17:50 <Morbus> backdoors aren't that public.
19:21:28 <deus_x> Grr.  Cursed XSLT.  My kingdom for foo =  (x) ? y : z 
19:21:31 <AaronSw> Not *the* Tim May?
19:21:46 <Morbus> who's timmay?
19:22:07 <AaronSw> that's what u;n asjubg
19:22:28 <AaronSw> err that's what i'm asking
19:23:14 <timmay> timmay has left #swhack
19:24:04 <Morbus> heh. must be that trillian backdoor.
19:24:06 <Morbus> * Morbus chuckles.
19:24:10 <Morbus> wink, wink.
19:27:24 <davb> davb has quit ("ChatZilla 0.8.7 [Mozilla rv:1.0.0/20020530]")
19:33:42 <AaronSw> bitsko? can you second my vote?
19:34:48 <sbp> timmay? heh
19:35:29 <Morbus> can anyone?
19:37:03 <AaronSw> no, just wg members i think
19:37:45 <sbp> heh:-
19:37:46 <sbp> [[[
19:37:46 <sbp> http://cicero/qmacro/2002/Jun/3#newlinks
19:37:47 <sbp> Kind regards
19:37:47 <sbp> DJ
19:37:47 <sbp> _not_ an HTML or standards expert
19:37:48 <sbp> ]]]
19:37:54 <sbp> not a Web expert either, it would seem
19:38:06 <AaronSw> hee
19:38:15 <Morbus> heh.
19:47:56 <gac> gac has quit ("ChatZilla 0.8.7 [Mozilla rv:1.0.0/20020530]")
19:55:33 <AaronSw> oops, was in wrong channel
19:55:34 <AaronSw> <AaronSw> """
19:55:34 <AaronSw> <AaronSw> A couple days ago my father sent me the NY Times Etherlinx story. 
19:55:34 <AaronSw> <AaronSw> (I'd include the link but I didn't get one. It was megs of multipart.) 
19:55:34 <AaronSw> <AaronSw> He asked me, "Anything to this?" (It's longer than his other emails.) 
19:55:34 <AaronSw> <AaronSw> ""
19:55:38 <AaronSw> <sbp> he wouldn't want to admit it because it's such abig advantage. but think about it: why would he say that he's *not* unless he is? It's like saying that he's a not a pink Yugoslavian tree frog--why
19:55:39 <AaronSw> <AaronSw> Close counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and now 802.11 access. 
19:55:41 <AaronSw> <sbp> ?
19:55:43 <AaronSw> <sbp> heh, 802.11 is so irrelevant for me. I love it
19:55:45 <AaronSw> <AaronSw> """
19:55:47 <AaronSw> <AaronSw> You might ask me where this suggestion of mine failed to get traction. 
19:55:49 <AaronSw> <AaronSw> The number one design factor in Mozilla then was to accomodate RDF. 
19:55:51 <AaronSw> <AaronSw> The Gecko engine was done -- everything else was to to be RDF-ized. 
19:55:53 <AaronSw> <AaronSw> So no one gave a shit about architecture issues related to performance. 
19:55:55 <AaronSw> <AaronSw> All our non-RDF square pegs had to be shoved into RDF round holes. 
19:55:57 <AaronSw> <AaronSw> """
19:55:59 <AaronSw> <sbp> Mmm... round holes
19:56:01 <AaronSw> [end]
19:56:02 <sbp> uhm...
19:56:21 <sbp> Gotta run
19:56:23 <AaronSw> <sbp> you can't prove i said that
19:56:52 <Morbus> jeez, i'm way behind everyone.
19:56:52 <Morbus> http://www.syndic8.com/userlist.php?OrderBy=points&OrderDir=asc&Start=710
20:06:07 <bitsko> AaronSw: second what?
20:06:19 <AaronSw> my rss-dev proposed vote
20:07:48 <bitsko> what's time did you send it?
20:08:42 <AaronSw> yesterday
20:08:45 <bitsko> ah, there it is...
20:09:53 <AaronSw> anyone else have this problem where a single click is interpreted as a double click on osx?
20:10:22 <bitsko> I'll try to get to it when I get home.  gotta run.
20:10:36 <bitsko> bitsko has left #swhack
20:17:38 <AaronSw> how did kearney get 20,000 points with only "recommended feeds"
20:19:51 <lelly> lelly (lelly@modem-4084.orangutan.dialup.pol.co.uk) has joined #swhack
20:23:01 <AaronSw> google catches hijacker
20:28:41 <lelly> lelly has quit ()
20:35:46 <AaronSw> blog being added to the oed
20:36:55 <GabeW> GabeW has quit ("Client Exiting")
20:39:10 <sbp> lol! "not even a cut'n'paste expert"
20:39:12 <sbp> he redeemed himself :-)
20:39:44 <sbp> ew! <head profile="qmacro:weblog">
20:40:51 <sbp> citations for "google catches hijacker" and "blog being added to the oed"?
20:42:22 <sbp> <AaronSw> <sbp> you can't prove i said that
20:42:35 <sbp> I almost certainly didn't say *that* at least, since I rarely use lower-case "i"
20:44:09 <AaronSw> google.blogspace.com, aaronsw.com/weblog/
20:44:12 <AaronSw> re citations
20:44:29 <sbp> gah. I should check them like every day
20:45:31 <sbp> wouldn't it be cool if there was a program that could somehow scrape the items from the pages and then aggregate and display them through some sort of a local server or something? that'd rock
20:45:51 <AaronSw> <jkl> Note to self, if you don't have an earned degree, Don't even bring it up in a job interview. :(
20:45:51 <AaronSw> <Recidivist> If you have an unearned degree, as I do, you shouldn't mention that either.
20:45:51 <AaronSw> <Recidivist> You shouldn't make interviewers feel stupid
20:45:52 <AaronSw> <Recidivist> you should kiss their ass and give them oral sex if they prefer
20:46:04 <AaronSw> sbp, splendid idea!
20:46:44 <AaronSw> oops, i was going to remove nicks from those quites
20:49:51 <sbp> put on your rubber gloves: it's time to doctor the logs
20:50:04 <Morbus> Morbus has quit ("http://www.disobey.com/")
20:50:44 <sbp> BTW, where'd EvilSpy go?
20:51:57 <AaronSw> he's not there?
20:52:07 <sbp> he hasn't been for quite some time, it seems
20:52:24 <sbp> the logs stop at 2002-05-31
20:57:22 <AaronSw> restarted
20:57:40 <sbp> cheers
21:04:21 <Morbus> Morbus (morbus@s91.terminal3.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack
21:07:03 <sbp> chump, chump, chump, chump, chump
21:07:17 <AaronSw> hm?
21:07:25 <sbp> he knows
21:07:26 <Morbus> heh.
21:07:32 <Morbus> no, i begin the process of releasing.
21:07:34 <Morbus> not released yet.
21:07:42 <Morbus> i got me checklists, sbp, checklists! <g>
21:07:48 <sbp> right, so we'll have the edge!
21:08:00 <Morbus> heheh.
21:08:11 <sbp> oh come on, you should have prepared for the swhack exclusive months in advance. it should be pre-checklist if anything
21:08:36 <Morbus> what are you talking about? you've known people have been playing with the alpha.
21:08:41 <Morbus> probably the closest "exclusive" is the john rhodes interview.
21:08:45 <Morbus> which i'm finishing right after I release :)
21:09:00 <sbp> welp, ... aw
21:09:39 <sbp> * sbp sulks a little bit
21:09:42 <Morbus> heh. well, interview me right now, on chump ;)
21:09:51 <Morbus> be like "so morbus, you're hours away from releasing. how do you *feel*?"
21:10:07 <Morbus> "well, sean, I feel good. i've drank my gatorade, i've masturbated twice, and generally, i'm raring to go'
21:10:51 <sbp> BLURB:AmphetaDesk Exclusive: 0.93 imminent, or port to Java by alien fungus-programmers? Its creator reveals all
21:11:07 <chumpy> A: AmphetaDesk Exclusive: 0.93 imminent, or port to Java by alien fungus-programmers? Its creator reveals all from sbp
21:11:59 <Ash-w> CHUMPY
21:12:24 <sbp> A::Today in the studio with us, we have Morbus Iff, creator of [http://www.disobey.com/amphetadesk/|AmphetaDesk]
21:12:25 <chumpy> commented item A
21:12:51 <sbp> A::So Mr. Iff, you're hours away from releasing the long-awaited version 0.93. How do you *feel*?
21:12:53 <chumpy> commented item A
21:13:28 <sbp> Ash!!!
21:13:30 <sbp> Happy Birthday
21:13:35 <Morbus> A::Well, Sean, I feel good. I've drank my Gatorade, I've personally ... "released" twice, and generally, I'm raring to go.
21:13:36 <chumpy> commented item A
21:13:54 <sbp> heh, heh. we get the CENSORED version
21:14:01 <Morbus> lots of birthdays today. its quasi's too
21:14:01 <Morbus> heh, heh.
21:14:05 <Morbus> well, someone might read this ;)
21:14:07 <sbp> wow
21:14:11 <Morbus> not all ampheta users know the sick fuck behind it ;)
21:14:54 <sbp> A::So, as more and more users become familiar with AmphetaDesk 0.92, what will make it worthwhile for them to upgrade?
21:15:00 <chumpy> commented item A
21:15:40 <Morbus> A::Welp, the problem with v0.92 was that it was like a slice of bread. it stood by itself, and you had to wait for me to offer you more of what you want.
21:15:48 <chumpy> commented item A
21:16:10 <Morbus> A::With v0.93, I've given you the whole damn loaf. It's a much better backend, a much stronger feature set, and generally, if you want it, you can have it pretty quickly.
21:16:14 <chumpy> commented item A
21:16:27 <Morbus> A::It all comes down to my home cooking. I love to cook, and now you can too.
21:16:33 <chumpy> commented item A
21:18:00 <sbp> A::A frying pan upside the head with love, eh? In any case, do you expect that many of your users will want to customize their source code? I also understand that the templating system is different in 0.93; do people really have to create new skins from scratch?
21:18:07 <chumpy> commented item A
21:18:59 <sbp> no underpantsy pink-doily frilly Queen Anne's lace-oriented interviewing from me, buster
21:19:12 <Morbus> A::I'll answer the easiest question first: yes, people have to make new skins. But, I don't see this as a downside, really. For one, if you've made a skin for v0.92, send it to me, and I'll change it over for you.
21:19:18 <chumpy> commented item A
21:19:38 <sbp> wow, that's devotion
21:20:04 <Morbus> A::Two, the number of people I know that have made skins was relatively low. The power of the new templating far outweighs the negatives, especially when I'm available to change them for you.
21:20:10 <Morbus> i'm serious about that too. i already mention it on the whats new page.
21:20:13 <chumpy> commented item A
21:20:57 <Morbus> A::As for the source code, I don't think its an issue of when - the alpha testers have already customized their source code, and in the coming weeks, I'll be offering HOW TO documents describing how they did it.
21:21:03 <chumpy> commented item A
21:21:34 <Morbus> A::With the knowledge in the HOWTOs and a little bit of Perl, anyone can extend their AmphetaDesk the way they want.
21:21:43 <chumpy> commented item A
21:21:49 <Morbus> you know, i'm probably gonna link to this in the announcement emails.
21:21:52 <AaronSw> A::Updating their templates for them--wow, what incredible devotion from Mr. Iff! Does this new version also come with a moneyback guarantee?
21:21:57 <chumpy> commented item A
21:22:22 <Morbus> A::Sure, considering AmphetaDesk is free.
21:22:34 <chumpy> chumpy has quit (Remote closed the connection)
21:22:37 <sbp> argh
21:22:48 <Morbus> NOOoO!
21:22:48 <Morbus> * Morbus weeps
21:22:57 <sbp> * sbp has another question on clipboard... rearing to go
21:22:58 <Morbus> hold on, Mr. Iff, we need to switch tape.s
21:23:08 <sbp> TURN TAPE OVER
21:23:21 <AaronSw> hold yer horses
21:23:23 <Morbus> heh. please forward the frame when you hear a "beep" like this.
21:23:23 <Morbus> <BEEP>
21:24:23 <chumpy> chumpy (nobody@xd84b5c5a.ip.ggn.net) has joined #swhack
21:24:42 <Morbus> nothing was lost.
21:25:04 <AaronSw> A::Alright, here's the question I know all of our viewers are asking themselves. How can AmphetaDesk compete against [the giant blogging juggernaut from the west|http://radio.userland.com/]? Your cthoughts?
21:25:05 <sbp> A::Whilst you're acclaimed for your devotion to your users, as the amount of users continues to grow, do you think that you'll be able to maintain the same level of involvement? Moreover, a myriad of interoperability controversies in the RSS world requires aggregator authors to have their finger on the pulse. Will AmphetaDesk be constantly maintained?
21:25:05 <chumpy> commented item A
21:25:08 <chumpy> commented item A
21:25:11 <AaronSw> oops
21:25:12 <sbp> um...
21:25:17 <sbp> heh, heh
21:25:20 <AaronSw> justasec
21:25:27 <chumpy> chumpy has quit (Remote closed the connection)
21:25:30 <sbp> no, make 'im work for his bread!
21:25:31 <Morbus> whoa, children.
21:25:36 <Morbus> papa has only so many hands.
21:26:05 <sbp> and they're all very busy, eh? :-)
21:26:18 <Morbus> hehehe.
21:26:18 <Morbus> yeah, i'd say so :)
21:27:19 <chumpy> chumpy (nobody@xd84b5c5a.ip.ggn.net) has joined #swhack
21:27:30 <AaronSw> alright, let's pick it up from constantly maintained
21:27:34 <sbp> sorry Mr. Iff, we appear to be having some technical difficulties. Feel free to take some complimentary pickle... aha
21:27:52 <sbp> A::Whilst you're acclaimed for your devotion to your users, as the amount of users continues to grow, do you think that you'll be able to maintain the same level of involvement? Moreover, a myriad of interoperability controversies in the RSS world requires aggregator authors to have their finger on the pulse. Will AmphetaDesk be constantly maintained?
21:27:56 <Morbus> jej./
21:27:59 <Morbus> * Morbus grumbles about incompetance.
21:28:05 <chumpy> commented item A
21:28:07 <Morbus> where's my agent?
21:28:31 <sbp> well, new offices, stupid interns, bad management... you know the drill
21:28:41 <Morbus> duplicate question.
21:28:43 <Morbus> dr. aaron, you around?
21:28:50 <AaronSw> yes
21:28:58 <sbp> and no stylesheet
21:28:59 <AaronSw> quit it, sbp
21:29:08 <AaronSw> let's keep going with the interview and i'll fix sbp's mistkaes later
21:29:15 <sbp> quit what? what?!
21:29:23 <AaronSw> quit screwing up the webpage
21:29:28 <sbp> you said to pick it up from "constantly maintained"
21:29:29 <Morbus> heh, heh.
21:29:31 <sbp> what?!
21:29:36 <Morbus> i'll answer AaronSw's firs.t
21:29:40 <AaronSw> no!
21:29:40 <sbp> you iz trippin, man!
21:29:42 <AaronSw> no!
21:29:55 <sbp> Aaron's question isn't on there
21:29:56 <AaronSw> sbp: Whilst you're acclaimed for your devotion to your users, as the amount of users continues to grow, do you think that you'll be able to maintain the same level of involvement? Moreover, a myriad of interoperability controversies in the RSS world requires aggregator authors to have their finger on the pulse. Will AmphetaDesk be constantly maintained?
21:29:57 <AaronSw> sbp: Whilst you're acclaimed for your devotion to your users, as the amount of users continues to grow, do you think that you'll be able to maintain the same level of involvement? Moreover, a myriad of interoperability controversies in the RSS world requires aggregator authors to have their finger on the pulse. Will AmphetaDesk be constantly maintained?
21:29:59 <Morbus> no?
21:29:59 <Morbus> * Morbus taps fingers.
21:30:02 <AaronSw> but sbp's is twice
21:30:05 <sbp> yeah
21:30:06 <AaronSw> answer sbp's question please
21:30:09 <sbp> so answer mine twice
21:30:13 <AaronSw> once, please!
21:30:14 <Morbus> ah, right. ok.
21:30:18 <Morbus> heh, heh.
21:30:26 <Morbus> this is entertaining.
21:31:21 <Morbus> A::Again, that's why this AmphetaDesk is so much better than the previous one. It's the whole slice/loaf thing again. With the slices, you needed the chef to prepare your next plate of food. With the new loaf that is AmphetaDesk, control of the source is yours, whether you're on Windows, Mac, or Linux.
21:31:23 <chumpy> commented item A
21:31:50 <Morbus> A::Anyone who knows Perl (a lot more people than know UserTalk, I bet) can put instructions on their website on how to update AmphetaDesk, or support this new RSS 1.0 modules, or do this and that.
21:31:51 <chumpy> commented item A
21:32:05 <sbp> a lot more people than know UserTalk: bwahahaha!
21:32:13 <Morbus> A::By no means am I removing myself from AmphetaDesk, but I'm making it far easier for other smart people to show their support.
21:32:15 <chumpy> commented item A
21:32:17 <Morbus> heh, heh.
21:32:34 <AaronSw> can i ask now?
21:32:42 <sbp> which is a bit like [applause from the studio audience]
21:32:51 <Morbus> heheheh.
21:32:51 <Morbus> sure.
21:32:53 <AaronSw> A::Alright, here's the question I know all of our viewers are asking themselves at home, and in the process annoying the ones around them. How can AmphetaDesk possibly compete against [the giant blogging juggernaut from the west|http://radio.userland.com/]? With it's small feature set and use of the obscure language PERL, isn't it doomed to simply be a hyperlinked footnote in blogging history?
21:32:55 <chumpy> commented item A
21:33:16 <AaronSw> morbus ruined my perl joke. will have to rearrange afterwards
21:33:29 <sbp> and take out the apostrophe
21:33:29 <Morbus> lol.
21:33:30 <Morbus> bitch <G>
21:33:46 <AaronSw> what apostrophe?
21:33:54 <sbp> "With it's small feature set [...]"
21:34:04 <Morbus> A::Perl obscure? I won't justify the idiocy behind that one. 
21:34:06 <chumpy> commented item A
21:34:27 <Morbus> A::At this point, I don't view myself as competing with Radio, personally.
21:34:28 <chumpy> commented item A
21:34:35 <Morbus> A::Competing becomes a game of one-upmanship - product against product. Often, you lose sight of the users.
21:34:36 <chumpy> commented item A
21:34:53 <Morbus> A::The power of Radio is that it can write. Winer charges for that power, and that's fine.
21:35:00 <chumpy> commented item A
21:35:45 <Morbus> A::AmphetaDesk is an aggregator. That's my goal right now. I don't assume the user wants to write. I don't assume the user has a website. I just assume the user likes information.
21:35:48 <chumpy> commented item A
21:36:01 <Morbus> A::If someone wanted to add writability to AmphetaDesk, I'm not going to stop them. It'd be pretty easy to do.
21:36:03 <chumpy> commented item A
21:36:11 <sbp> A::Has Uncle Dave expressed any opinion on AmphetaDesk?
21:36:13 <chumpy> commented item A
21:36:23 <sbp> what I really wanted to ask was: Are you somewhat surprised that "he" hasn't been able to crush your little endeavour with disinformation from his all-powerful media empire?
21:37:11 <AaronSw> i'll swap the qs in post-production
21:37:15 <sbp> heh, heh
21:37:24 <sbp> * sbp ^5's the production manager
21:37:30 <Morbus> A::At this point, AmphetaDesk is free, more user-friendly, and open sourced. Compared to Radio's tech audience which must fork out $40 for code they don't own, I've already won, even if the features aren't matching yet.
21:37:30 <Morbus> heh
21:37:33 <chumpy> commented item A
21:38:28 <Morbus> A::The only public opinion of heard from Winer is that he thinks the aggregator is a clearcut rip of his Radio aggregator. And I'd agree. That's been written in the AmphetaDesk documentation since first quarter 2001. Dave inspired me to do better than him.
21:38:31 <chumpy> commented item A
21:38:58 <AaronSw> A::Does that mean you've violated his intellectual property rights?
21:38:59 <chumpy> commented item A
21:39:03 <sbp> lol
21:39:07 <AaronSw> A::Is Userland considering legal action?
21:39:08 <chumpy> commented item A
21:39:14 <Morbus> bwahahah.a
21:39:22 <sbp> oh man, we're going to win awards for this
21:39:39 <Morbus> A::As much as SunOffice and AbiWord has violated Microsoft's, sure.
21:39:42 <chumpy> commented item A
21:39:44 <Morbus> heh!
21:40:21 <Morbus> A::My vast cadre of angry lawyers haven't yet been contacted, no.
21:40:23 <chumpy> commented item A
21:40:54 <AaronSw> A::why are they angry?
21:40:56 <chumpy> commented item A
21:41:36 <Morbus> A::They haven't been paid. No one is [http://www.disobey.com/amphetadesk/giving_thanks.htm|giving thanks] for AmphetaDesk.
21:41:38 <chumpy> commented item A
21:41:46 <sbp> A::Is it true that you're dropping support for Classic? Will you be introducing multiple-threading to make up for this cut?
21:41:49 <chumpy> commented item A
21:41:56 <AaronSw> especially snce thats a broken link (post-production)
21:42:07 <sbp> heh, he did that before
21:42:14 <Morbus> A::By no means am I dropping support for Classic.
21:42:14 <Morbus> shit.
21:42:14 <Morbus> its give_thanks.htm
21:42:15 <sbp> it's give_thanks, I think
21:42:17 <chumpy> commented item A
21:42:18 <Morbus> fix that.
21:42:23 <AaronSw> wukk di
21:42:31 <AaronSw> err will do
21:42:41 <deus_x> deus_x has quit (Connection timed out)
21:42:53 <sbp> A::So no multiple threading?
21:42:56 <chumpy> commented item A
21:43:23 <Morbus> A::Right before I started freezing the code for the new release, I discovered a fatal crashing bug with AmphetaDesk under Classic Mac. The current thought from the creators of MacPerl is that it's a GUSI bug, and we're both working together to try and figure it out.
21:43:24 <chumpy> commented item A
21:43:30 <Morbus> A::Once it's hammered out, there will be a Classic AmphetaDesk.
21:43:32 <chumpy> commented item A
21:43:36 <sbp> neat
21:44:11 <AaronSw> A::And what about multithreading...?
21:44:11 <Morbus> A::Since threading isn't available under Mac Classic, there are no plans for threading. I don't like the idea of OS superiority - one AmphetaDesk working better somewhere else.
21:44:13 <chumpy> commented item A
21:44:17 <chumpy> commented item A
21:44:22 <Morbus> A::But, depending on the demand for Classic support, I may reconsider.
21:44:24 <chumpy> commented item A
21:44:38 <AaronSw> A::Rumors have been swirling about a new Aqua interface for AmphetaDesk, developed by a man only known by his catch phrase: "I hate decaf coffee." Do you have any response to these allegations?
21:44:45 <chumpy> commented item A
21:45:33 <Morbus> A::They won't be rumors for long :)
21:45:39 <chumpy> commented item A
21:46:59 <AaronSw> A::What do you think of Rael Dornfest's aggregator, [blagg|http://www.oreillynet.com/~rael/lang/perl/blagg/], also written in Perl?
21:47:01 <chumpy> commented item A
21:47:33 <Morbus> A::Rael and I have already talked about integrating Blagg and AmphetaDesk.
21:47:36 <chumpy> commented item A
21:47:45 <Morbus> actually, no we haven't.
21:47:45 <Morbus> that's blosxom.
21:47:45 <Morbus> remove that line <G>
21:47:53 <AaronSw> post-production
21:48:04 <AaronSw> ok, real response?
21:50:22 <AaronSw> Morbus?
21:50:51 <AaronSw> bzzt. time up
21:50:52 <AaronSw> A::With a version number like 0.93, should new users be afraid and wait until 1.0? How polished is Amphy?
21:50:55 <chumpy> commented item A
21:51:10 <MorbusIff> MorbusIff (morbus@s101.terminal3.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack
21:51:20 <AaronSw> <AaronSw> ok, real response?
21:51:20 <AaronSw> <AaronSw> Morbus?
21:51:20 <AaronSw> <AaronSw> bzzt. time up
21:51:20 <AaronSw> <AaronSw> A::With a version number like 0.93, should new users be afraid and wait until 1.0? How polished is Amphy?
21:52:02 <MorbusIff> grumble
21:52:28 <Morbus> Morbus has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: MorbusIff!morbus@s101.terminal3.totalnetnh.net)))
21:52:38 <MorbusIff> hold.
21:52:56 <MorbusIff> can you remove my line about blagg? i'll respond to it.
21:52:58 <MorbusIff> MorbusIff is now known as Morbus
21:53:06 <AaronSw> yep, i will
21:53:24 <Morbus> mmkay.
21:53:26 <Morbus> back to blagg.
21:54:20 <Morbus> A::I think Rael and his code (blagg, blosxom, amazox) is solid. I don't consider blagg a competitor however - it requires too much from the end user. Perl installed, manual config file editing, a command line, a filesystem that can support thousands and thousands of tiny files in a single directory, etc.
21:54:23 <chumpy> commented item A
21:55:13 <Morbus> A::AmphetaDesk is rather polished. My minor numeric upgrades are HuUUGe code upgrades. AmphetaDesk has been around since early 2001, has gone through about a dozen revisions, and has been downloaded about 26,000 times. It's stable.
21:55:15 <chumpy> commented item A
21:55:25 <Morbus> A::It's not 1.0 yet because I don't think it's great enough for a 1.0 release.
21:55:27 <chumpy> commented item A
21:55:55 <AaronSw> A::Well, we all know you've been working on this release for months. What's next on the horizon, and when should users expect 1.0?
21:56:10 <chumpy> commented item A
21:56:32 <Morbus> A::Well, first, there won't be a 1.0. I'd jump right into 1.1. I hate when people say "zero" like "oh". Drives me up a flippin' wall.
21:56:34 <chumpy> commented item A
21:56:37 <sbp> [[[
21:56:37 <sbp>          Congratulations, MORBUS IFF of disobey.com, who wins that
21:56:37 <sbp>          zipped tar of all our back issues that we promised him about
21:56:37 <sbp>          six months ago
21:56:41 <sbp> ]]] - http://www.ntk.net/1999/07/02/
21:56:42 <Morbus> heh, heh.
21:56:45 <Morbus> i never did get that, you know.
21:56:48 <sbp> heh!
21:56:49 <AaronSw> lol
21:56:50 <Morbus> fuckers.
21:56:59 <Morbus> :)
21:57:09 <sbp> * sbp chuckles
21:57:40 <sbp> I was rooting around for dirt on you and DW. I was hoping you'd sent a DW fanboy letter a few years ago or something
21:57:56 <Morbus> A::As for the horizon, probably the one feature that will absolutely make it in a 1.1 release is the "don't show items I've seen before". It's oft-requested.
21:58:02 <Morbus> sbp: bwahahah
21:58:07 <chumpy> commented item A
21:58:30 <sbp> A::And ordering by last-update? When is that addition planned?
21:58:32 <chumpy> commented item A
21:58:39 <Morbus> A::Other than that, the tech end of things will include stronger support for all the various RSS 1.0 modules, template switching, a possible plugin architecture and so forth.
21:58:42 <chumpy> commented item A
21:59:18 <Morbus> A::Ordering by last update? Channels or items? Channels are already ordered by last update, but in the current version, you could order them alphabetically, reverse alphabetically, by date added, etc. It's a few lines of code - another loaf/slice sort of thing.
21:59:21 <chumpy> commented item A
21:59:40 <Morbus> A::As for items, that will come later. Since RSS doesn't force date and times on items, AmphetaDesk will have to figure that out by it's lonesome.
21:59:43 <chumpy> commented item A
22:00:18 <Morbus> happening live in #swhack
22:00:21 <Morbus> oops.
22:00:38 <Rias> Rias (thomas@io.stderr.net) has joined #swhack
22:00:54 <sbp> A::Another often requested feature for AmphetaDesk is a search engine for the thousands of available feeds. Are you planning to add such a functionality?
22:00:55 <chumpy> commented item A
22:01:17 <Morbus> A::I'd love to, but the difficulty isn't the code, but rather the people who create RSS.
22:01:20 <chumpy> commented item A
22:01:42 <Morbus> A::People aren't putting in decent descriptions of what the channel is about, so searching will ultimately fail due to lack of strong data.
22:01:45 <chumpy> commented item A
22:02:11 <sbp> A::What about a title search?
22:02:13 <chumpy> commented item A
22:02:36 <Morbus> A::Same sorta thing. I'd like to, but searching for "semantic web" isn't going to return this Swhack weblog.
22:02:38 <chumpy> commented item A
22:04:13 <sbp> A::[http://www.edmurray.org/archive/000281.html#000281|Ed Murray] notes that he is very keen on [http://www.newzcrawler.com/|Newzcrawler]. Have you used this product? If so, how does it compare to AmphetaDesk in your opinion? If not, do you see it as a serious competitor from what you can tell?
22:04:15 <chumpy> commented item A
22:04:40 <sbp> whoops, should have linked "notes". Pff
22:04:56 <sbp> it's a bit more whimsical as it is above, though, I suppose
22:05:01 <Morbus> A::I don't consider any aggregator a competitor unless it's free, open sourced, and crossplatform.
22:05:07 <chumpy> commented item A
22:05:21 <Morbus> A::For that much, the only one I know of that is similar to AmphetaDesk is [http://www.johnmunsch.com/|HotSheet].
22:05:27 <chumpy> commented item A
22:06:33 <AaronSw> A::AmphetaDesk is still a Web-based program in an age where GUI tools are back in vogue again. Do you have any plans to give AmphetaDesk a native GUI?
22:06:36 <chumpy> commented item A
22:06:49 <Morbus> A::None what so ever.
22:06:52 <chumpy> commented item A
22:07:42 <sbp> A::What is Bill Kearney's relationship to AmphetaDesk: how much is AmphetaDesk dependent upon his syndic8 site, and what is your personal opinion of him?
22:07:45 <chumpy> commented item A
22:08:16 <AaronSw> lol
22:08:38 <Morbus> oh man.
22:08:50 <sbp> heh, I surprise myself sometimes
22:09:07 <Morbus> A::Kearney and I have disagreements an awful lot, but we've always got smiles on our faces as we lace into each other.
22:09:15 <chumpy> commented item A
22:09:49 <Morbus> A::AmphetaDesk does use the feed export from Syndic8's site, and Jeff Barr (the creator of Syndic8) realizes and approves of it.
22:09:57 <chumpy> commented item A
22:10:06 <Morbus> bastard <g>
22:10:11 <AaronSw> is that all?
22:10:17 <sbp> hey, it could have been worse. A::Did you not say in the past (and I quote verbatim): "kearney is driving me nuts", "kearney pisses me off with his reasoning", and "when winer left, we got kearney in his place. i'm not sure who I dislike the least."
22:10:18 <AaronSw> what's your personal opinion
22:10:36 <Morbus> sbp: hey, anything's up for grab.
22:10:40 <AaronSw> A::One of our viewers has kindly written in with this, er, question. "H3Y L00SERS. AMPHETADESK HAS TEH BAKDURS TO TASKE OVER TEH LUNIX COMPUTERS. IS NOT SAF3!!!"
22:10:40 <sbp> grep is just so great
22:10:43 <chumpy> commented item A
22:11:07 <sbp> heh. it was Ash, wasn't it?
22:11:17 <Morbus> A::Oh, that's simple. There are these things called "Tree Files"...
22:11:21 <chumpy> commented item A
22:11:23 <sbp> lol
22:11:52 <Morbus> A:: :)
22:11:55 <chumpy> commented item A
22:12:01 <sbp> A::You've said in the past "when winer left, we got kearney in his place. i'm not sure who I dislike the least." Have you been able to come to a resolution on that question yet?
22:12:03 <chumpy> commented item A
22:12:32 <AaronSw> sbp can turn even grep into a weapon
22:12:37 <sbp> lol!
22:13:01 <sbp> * sbp should be able to get an evolt article out of that
22:13:37 <Morbus> A::Nah, it was rhetorical. Kearney and I argue an awful lot publically, but most of the time, its because we can. Offlist, we're remotely civil.
22:13:41 <chumpy> commented item A
22:13:50 <AaronSw> <Morbus> look at the time!
22:13:53 <sbp> heh, heh
22:13:55 <Morbus> heh, ehh.
22:15:06 <AaronSw> feel free to wrapup, sbp. i think i'm out of qs
22:17:02 <sbp> O.K., gimme a sec...
22:19:56 <sbp> A::Finally, the alien fungus-programmers? Java? Nekkid Winer conspiracies? Is there *any* truth to the allegations in this week's tabloids?
22:19:58 <chumpy> commented item A
22:20:45 <Morbus> A::Nekkid Winer does exist, but he's currently in rare form. You may be able to find him in seedy saunas howeever - consort your local authorities for more information.
22:20:48 <chumpy> commented item A
22:20:59 <sbp> A::Mr. Iff, we thank you for your time
22:21:03 <chumpy> commented item A
22:21:26 <Morbus> A::As do I, yours. Thank you. If any other readers have questions, be sure to [mailto:morbus@disobey.com|mail them in!]
22:21:29 <chumpy> commented item A
22:21:57 <AaronSw> atsa wrap
22:22:03 <sbp> A::Your interviewers today have been [http://www.aaronsw.com/|Aaron Swartz] and [http://purl.org/net/sbp/|Sean B. Palmer]. Post production by Aaron Swartz. [fade out funky credit-music]
22:22:05 <chumpy> commented item A
22:22:42 <Morbus> A:: [Morbus fumbles with his lapel microphone]. Mediiic!
22:22:44 <chumpy> commented item A
22:22:53 <chumpy> chumpy has quit (Remote closed the connection)
22:23:15 <AaronSw> lol
22:26:11 <Morbus> AaronSw: can you fix the mailto: link too.
22:26:58 <sbp> heh, heh
22:27:00 <sbp> just like a real studio, but with a lot less farting
22:27:42 <sbp> so, we go into pp. I must warn you that we will undoubtedly take all of your comments out of context and twist it to make it as sensational as possible. but you understand that, I hope
22:28:01 <Morbus> heh, i won't link to you! <G>
22:28:12 <sbp> heh, heh
22:29:05 <Morbus> just added to the docs:
22:29:06 <Morbus> [[[
22:29:06 <Morbus> AmphetaDesk v0.93 in the Press:
22:29:07 <Morbus> ]]]
22:29:09 <Morbus> uh.
22:29:10 <Morbus> AmphetaDesk v0.93 in the Press:
22:29:11 <Morbus> * AmphetaDesk Pre-Release Exclusive - An interview with yours truly as I wrap things up.
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22:32:08 <sbp> whoo!
22:32:16 <Morbus> someone should do a spell check too.
22:32:22 <Morbus> lemme know when its finalized.
22:32:36 <sbp> I'm guessing that Aaron is toothcombing it right now
22:32:45 <AaronSw> almost done
22:33:21 <AaronSw> alright, it's up
22:33:44 <AaronSw> comments before i start up chumpy?
22:33:45 <Morbus> checking
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22:43:55 <Morbus> yay
22:44:08 <sbp> http://blogspace.com/swhack/weblog/2002/06/13/#i1024002651.914514 is not found
22:44:17 <AaronSw> sheesh, hold on, hold, on
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22:45:33 <sbp> oh, my mistake
22:45:33 <sbp> :-)
22:45:33 <Morbus> * Morbus commits final cvs before bundling
22:45:52 <Ash-w> alright.. i'm going out to dinner now!
22:45:53 <Ash-w> Wheeeeeee
22:46:01 <Ash-w> See you guys later. Or maybe tomorrow. Who knows.
22:46:01 <Ash-w> hehehe
22:46:08 <sbp> c'ya. have fun
22:46:15 <Ash-w> I will, thanks! :)
22:47:35 <chumpy> chumpy (nobody@xd84b5c5a.ip.ggn.net) has joined #swhack
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22:47:47 <TimBL> A::Thanks, Sean and Aaron, for that enlightening interview. The latest version of [AmphetaDesk is available from disobey.com|http://www.disobey.com/amphetadesk/]. Coming up next... Giant Man-Eating Zombies: Should they be allowed in W3C Working Groups, or not?
22:47:52 <chumpy> commented item A
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22:48:02 <Morbus> !!!
22:48:03 <Morbus> oh.
22:48:08 <Morbus> just aaron being cute.
22:48:10 <Morbus> man, i thought i was special
22:48:13 <AaronSw> lol
22:48:28 <Morbus> bitch <g>
22:48:46 <AaronSw> ehy, i thoguht that was pretty good
22:48:53 <AaronSw> like how stone philipss always follows up after the report
22:49:00 <AaronSw> or whatshisname who does nightlinge
22:49:25 <AaronSw> "Thanks. Morbus Iff died in November, three months after that interview."
22:49:31 <Morbus> hehehehe
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22:50:52 <Morbus> source is 608k
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22:52:52 <AaronSw> xxx.lanl.gov. what a weird machine name -- nuclear pr0n?
22:52:57 <Morbus> win32 is 1.7
22:55:23 <AaronSw> how does one undo a Ctrl-S?
22:55:29 <deltab> ctrl-q
22:55:56 <deltab> if you're referring to XON/XOFF
22:56:38 <sbp> sbp has quit (Remote closed the connection)
22:56:54 <AaronSw> yep, thanks
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22:58:05 <walloper> <misato> ok everyone... thanks for your patience and hopefully that will be it till were out of primetime. You are listening to WOPN! the Wallops of the Open Projects network, if you don't want to see this... type /mode <nick> -w
22:58:24 <sbp> lol @ the TimBL bit
22:59:07 <Morbus> osx version only 1.3 megs.
23:00:37 <Morbus> will any of you be around to test this stuff?
23:00:42 <Morbus> for corruption, etc.?
23:01:11 <AaronSw> i will
23:01:31 <Morbus> k. thanks.
23:03:33 <Morbus> be back in a bit. gotta upload.
23:03:34 <Morbus> Morbus has quit ("http://www.disobey.com/")
23:07:02 <sbp> well, I think that that was a Swhack golden moment
23:07:08 <AaronSw> Indeed.
23:07:11 <sbp> like when DanC came in and told us about Mr. Grape
23:07:20 <sbp> I still can't believe that I missed that
23:07:32 <AaronSw> You missed that? Oh, man.
23:07:40 <sbp> then again, if I had been there time would have been irreversibly changed, and Morbus wouldn't have been born
23:08:25 <sbp> heh, heh: 2001-12-11.txt:23:09:46 <sbp> DanC came in here and started talking about Mr. Grape? What is it with this channel?
23:13:12 <sbp> I feel a rant coming on, and it's going to be about trailing full-stops in IRC
23:13:24 <sbp> I feel that a line has an implicit period at the end of it
23:13:40 <sbp> People don't keep 
23:13:44 <sbp> talking over many 
23:13:48 <sbp> lines because it's
23:13:49 <sbp> very
23:13:50 <sbp> VERY
23:13:52 <sbp> annoying.
23:13:55 <deltab> 011404 #swhack <sbp> People don't keep
23:14:05 <deltab> put them in a freezer
23:14:09 <sbp> lol!
23:14:20 <sbp> that's exactly my point, then :-)
23:14:59 <sbp> OTOH, perhaps it's more like a period/comma choice
23:15:12 <sbp> since one can use "since" on the next line and have it make some sort of sense
23:15:36 <deltab> * deltab nods
23:16:10 <sbp> but I don't think that I've ever come across a situation where that wasn't clear from context
23:16:20 <AaronSw> how do i fix this?
23:16:20 <AaronSw>     print '<h4><a href="' + item.link.encode('utf8') + '">' + item.title \
23:16:20 <AaronSw> UnicodeError: ASCII encoding error: ordinal not in range(128)
23:16:40 <sbp> 'utf-8'
23:17:01 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Hi all.  Apologies for the hubbing problems.  It appears we still need new main hubbing.  Requirements for a main hub:  T3 or better, multihomed, 40K bits per second average traffic, extremely stable routing.  If you think you can provide a server, please take a look at http://openprojects.net/sponsoring_servers.shtml and email lilo@openprojects.net.  Thanks.
23:17:05 <deltab> technically right, but won't help this
23:17:15 <sbp> oh, good point. I'm thinking in circles
23:17:29 <AaronSw> utf-8: nope
23:17:36 <sbp> you need to convert it to ASCII somehow, and that's a pain in the nuts
23:17:41 <sbp> do you know what encoding it uses?
23:17:49 <AaronSw> encoding what uses?
23:17:53 <AaronSw> i don't want to convert it to ascii
23:17:57 <deltab> the default for Pytho is ASCII
23:18:03 <AaronSw> ok, maybe i do
23:18:13 <AaronSw> is there some htmlencode(x)?
23:18:38 <deltab> '&#%d;' % ord(x)
23:18:56 <deltab> :-)
23:19:01 <sbp> if ord(x) is not in some standard character range, that is...
23:19:01 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] (Note:  Hub IPs on OPN are not public.)
23:19:17 <AaronSw> hm. how do i find the chars for which it'
23:19:21 <himan> himan has left #swhack
23:19:26 <AaronSw> s gt 128
23:19:52 <sbp> if ord(x) > 127, I suppose
23:20:21 <sbp> you can filter out those octets that are causing problems, that way
23:22:13 <sbp> def htmlencode(s): 
23:22:13 <sbp>    result = ''
23:22:13 <sbp>    for c in s: 
23:22:15 <sbp>       if ord(c) < 128: result += c
23:22:15 <sbp>       else: result += '&#%d;' % ord(x)
23:22:16 <sbp>    return result
23:28:28 <sbp> s/ord(x)/ord(c)/
23:29:37 <walloper> <lilo> Hmmm.  Probably the worst time to make a humorous response to a notice is immediately after a service problem.
23:30:56 <walloper> <lilo> It's not a killer, just something to keep in mind.
23:32:48 <walloper> <lilo> Anyway, life goes on.  Thank you for using OPN. 8)
23:34:33 <walloper> <misato> welcome to WOPN the premier information station of Open Projects Network.  If you just hate these messages... type /mode <your' nick> -w
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23:34:50 <jeremiah> jeremiah (~chatzilla@ip68-10-31-209.hr.hr.cox.net) has joined #swhack
23:34:53 <jeremiah> toodaloo
23:35:47 <sbp> sbp (~sean@63.149.73.20) has joined #swhack
23:38:31 <AaronSw> hey jeremiah
23:38:36 <GabeW> GabeW (~Gabe@12-236-104-95.client.attbi.com) has joined #swhack
23:38:39 <jeremiah> hi aaronsw
23:38:45 <AaronSw> heh, sbp weote the exact same code i did for htmlenecode
23:38:53 <jeremiah> hmm
23:38:54 <AaronSw> and made the same mistake! lol
23:39:04 <jeremiah> what's the current coding project?
23:39:49 <sbp> snap :-)
23:40:26 <jeremiah> I got a tatoo
23:40:29 <jeremiah> or however it's spelled
23:40:52 <AaronSw> gotta run
23:40:58 <jeremiah> http://kingprimate.com/images/2002/06/08/dsc00006.JPG
23:40:59 <jeremiah> seeya
23:42:00 <AaronSw> what is it of?
23:42:08 <jeremiah> four inter-locking black rings
23:42:10 <jeremiah> celtic artwork
23:42:19 <jeremiah> celts belive(d) everything went in groups of four
23:42:27 <jeremiah> four seasons, four stages of life
23:42:40 <jeremiah> I don't belive that, but i have irish heritage, so... I figured it'd be better than something I can't relate myself to
23:43:12 <jeremiah> and I didn't want a leprecahun
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