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02:00:39 <AaronSw> AaronSw has changed the topic to: the return of sbp
02:00:48 <AaronSw> hey wmf
02:00:52 <wmf> howdy
02:00:58 <AaronSw> what's it for. i can set one up pretty easily
02:01:00 <wmf> you recovered?
02:01:07 <Ash> HOWDY
02:01:10 <wmf> nah, don't set one up
02:01:33 <wmf> I want to put the session grid in a wiki so people can add links to their bloggage
02:01:50 <wmf> that way other people can easily find notes from each session
02:01:51 <AaronSw> recovered from what?
02:01:55 <AaronSw> Aha.
02:02:32 <wmf> I only lost one AC adaptor...
02:02:47 <AaronSw> Heh. How many did you have?
02:02:57 <wmf> at least 3
02:02:58 <AaronSw> Any idea where it went?
02:03:20 <wmf> yeah, I probably left it plugged in under the little round table by the window
02:04:08 <AaronSw>  http://www.quicktopic.com/boing/H/n4mMPuAasH7
02:05:07 <wmf> it's not clear that Dan Z is right
02:05:25 <wmf> I don't understand what Reed was saying
02:14:56 <AaronSw> http://www.aaronsw.com/2002/etcon/notes
02:16:39 <wmf> ok, how do I add links to my notes?
02:17:29 <wmf> also, the colors are a bit hard to read
02:17:57 <AaronSw> yeah, i just fixed the colors
02:18:09 <AaronSw> i guess i'll just ad links by hand.
02:18:14 <wmf> ah, mo' better
02:18:33 <wmf> I think I'll go put anchors in my notes
02:21:12 <wmf> http://wmf.editthispage.com/2002/05/16#shirky
02:21:17 <wmf> http://wmf.editthispage.com/2002/05/16#commons
02:22:05 <wmf> http://wmf.editthispage.com/2002/05/15#cory
02:23:15 <wmf> http://wmf.editthispage.com/2002/05/14#tim
02:23:32 <wmf> http://wmf.editthispage.com/2002/05/14#morris
02:24:12 <wmf> http://wmf.editthispage.com/2002/05/14#neumann
02:24:18 <wmf> http://wmf.editthispage.com/2002/05/14#marcs
02:24:45 <wmf> http://wmf.editthispage.com/2002/05/14#brewster
02:25:03 <wmf> http://wmf.editthispage.com/2002/05/14#rashid
02:26:53 <AaronSw> OK, I think I've got them all.
02:26:59 <wmf> I didn't blog emergence
02:27:22 <AaronSw> yeah, i fixed that
02:27:42 <wmf> heh, I'm so 20 seconds ago
02:28:09 <AaronSw> now to integrate cory
02:28:12 <wmf> did we blog exactly the same sessions?
02:28:53 <AaronSw> i blogged some you didn't
02:29:08 <AaronSw> bruce schneirer
02:29:12 <wmf> ah
02:29:28 <AaronSw> you blogged commons, i didn't
02:31:21 <wmf> another wiki idea: you are what you use? a directory of who uses what kinds of machines
02:50:14 <AaronSw> ok, i'm gonna have to set up that wiki now
02:50:35 <AaronSw> good thing it's already installed
03:00:01 <AaronSw> http://notabug.com/2002/wiki/FrontPage
03:04:35 <AaronSw> hm, more URIs to ORA weblogs? http://www.oreillynet.com/1414.html
03:21:01 <AaronSw> Oram: "Schneier is a really neat person, despite his illusion that a Gore administration would have protected civil liberties more than the Bush administration does. "
03:21:03 <AaronSw> weird
03:38:54 <wmf> what kind of wiki requires me to log on??
03:55:51 <AaronSw> hm
03:55:55 <AaronSw> maybe i set permissions wrong
03:56:05 <AaronSw> conference webcast http://technetcast.ddj.com/tnc_catalog.html?item_id=1314
03:56:54 <AaronSw> try now
03:57:30 <wmf> ok
04:00:25 <AaronSw> OK, I think I've integrated everything intot he etcon page
04:03:38 <AaronSw> Brewster used a TiBook, right?
04:04:09 <wmf> yes
04:04:25 <wmf> (it's great to just be able to check my photos to answer that question)
04:12:43 <AaronSw> http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/000256
04:12:59 <wmf> woo! 256th post!
04:14:30 <AaronSw> Heh.
04:18:50 <wmf> I'm glad iPhoto can fix the contrast in my no-flash photos
04:22:36 <AaronSw> wow, i already got a thank you note for the notes page
04:33:38 <wmf> geez, iPhoto is slow. need titanium.
04:34:26 <AaronSw> applescript and zope have made loading photos to site so easy.
04:34:57 <wmf> I should do that
04:34:59 <AaronSw> plug in camera. click "download some...". hit rotate button a few times. drag photos onto "upload".
04:35:04 <wmf> I am such a slacker
04:36:29 <wmf> at least I don't have to use GraphicConverter any more
04:47:44 <wmf> I hope I don't run Dave out of disk space...
04:49:13 <AaronSw> Dave?
04:49:38 <AaronSw> oh, right
04:49:38 <wmf> I'm uploading lots of data to HTP
04:50:40 <wmf> http://wmf.editthispage.com/pictures/viewer$7553
04:51:20 <AaronSw> Awesome.
05:01:52 <AaronSw> interesting: http://www.skeptic.com/02.2.shermer-unlikely-cult.html
05:03:16 <wmf> I knew what that was about before I finished the first paragraph :-)
05:04:21 <wmf> I think Extropianism and Singularitarianism (phew) are religions in a sense
05:07:32 <AaronSw> Hm, I thought they were just weird.
05:22:56 <AaronSw> woo! "Alpha testing of Tinderbox for MacOS X is proceeding well. We should be in beta next week."
05:25:11 <AaronSw> ooh: http://markbernstein.org/alife1.html
05:27:10 <wmf> 23K hits/day on average? yeah right
05:27:27 <wmf> 230 would be more like it
05:28:02 <AaronSw> as he says, scale to fit
05:29:53 <synack_> synack_ is now known as s|a
06:27:56 <AaronSw> * AaronSw backblogs, starting with http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/000255
06:36:32 <deltab> looks like some punctuation's missing from "choice between property and the American"
06:36:42 <deltab>   way between anarchy and evil communism.
06:36:49 <deltab> "
06:36:54 <deltab> bleh
06:37:18 <deltab> missing punctuation is *not* that extra quote mark :-)
06:38:31 <deltab> only one o in Morpheus
06:40:30 <deltab> oh, and could you update dns please? thanks
06:41:14 <AaronSw> now: "They've convinced the world that it's a choice between property and the American way or anarchy and evil communism."
06:41:25 <AaronSw> what file should i use for DNS?
06:41:41 <AaronSw> do i have an account on xia?
06:43:09 <deltab> data.esp
06:43:52 <AaronSw> hm, that name neither decentralized, global nor secure. ;-)
06:44:04 <AaronSw> and it contains no hints on how to locate the file
06:44:29 <AaronSw> wmf, where'd we go for dinner on tues?
06:44:43 <AaronSw> oh, iA?
06:45:36 <AaronSw> no, spicy noodles...
06:45:37 <wmf> mon: iA, tue: spicy
06:46:07 <deltab> scp://xia.blazingfast.net/%2fservice/tinydns/root/data.esp
06:46:52 <wmf> one advantage of ripping my CD collection is that I'm going back and listening to all of it
06:51:26 <AaronSw> thanks deltab /me updates Makefile; makes
06:51:48 <deltab> thanks
06:53:25 <deltab> those still accessing your server for our domains should stop soon
06:54:57 <deltab> thanks for the use of it
06:57:27 <AaronSw> no prob
07:20:00 <oierw> oierw is now known as oierw|sleep
07:28:05 <wmf> congrats AaronSw, you're in NTK
07:28:11 <AaronSw> thanks
07:28:44 <wmf> lol, "the keyboard rattling hoardes of Blogistan"
07:33:28 <wmf> heh, "a geek army of the Republic of Blogistan"
07:36:28 <AaronSw> tracking the blogistan meme?
07:37:02 <wmf> not really
07:37:13 <wmf> just noting various forms of it
07:42:21 <wmf> Joey blogged Roger's session
07:44:39 <AaronSw> * AaronSw links in Joey
07:45:08 <wmf> there's nothing like having someone to implement my ideas
07:46:02 <AaronSw> hah: "Lightweight. If we ever get a teeny-weeny little 5.2 quake around here, I'll bet you'll pee in your beloved couch."
07:46:14 <wmf> that's a little harsh
07:48:06 <AaronSw> he's brutal. 'Has Steven Johnson ever been even near a ghetto? He looks so WASPy, and my definition of WASP is "someone who steps out of the shower to pee."'
07:50:04 <AaronSw> i like this job because i get to read all the weblog entries.
07:50:54 <wmf> heh: "Sending >500KB attachments is forbidden by the Geneva Convention.
07:50:56 <wmf>               Your country may be at risk if you fail to comply."
07:56:23 <AaronSw> ugh, i'm so tired i can barely see.
07:56:38 <AaronSw> laters
07:56:44 <wmf> bye
08:07:05 <wmf> geez, Brockman has a new book of essays out and I haven't finished his last one
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13:52:05 <sbp> sbp has changed the topic to: The old grey mare, she ain't what she used to be
14:45:32 <AaronSw> .dns lists.hpchabad.org.
14:45:32 <xena> lists.hpchabad.org. - 63.149.73.20
15:19:06 <walloper> <lilo> "I lift this clavicle to worlds without number, and bring a new light to the Way, guiding this gate that all may prosper, those who guide and are guided, who light the Way and bask in the light so given....Behold, I open a new world."
15:19:19 <walloper> <lilo> Please welcome piper.openprojects.net, a new hidden hub, located somewhere.
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15:30:36 <AaronSw> .dns cdindex.org
15:30:57 <xena> cdindex.org - gaierror: (-2, 'Name or service not known')
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17:05:25 <AaronSw> i wonder where that quote is from
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17:18:42 <AaronSw> ook: http://www.itas.fzk.de/mahp/weber/merkle.htm
17:18:43 <AaronSw> err ooh
17:18:48 <AaronSw> merkle puzzles using only hashes. neat.
17:19:14 <AaronSw> i was telling cory that the neural net training thing was just a new twist on merkle puzzles
17:24:47 <justme__> justme__ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
17:26:32 <AaronSw> Wow, he found it by trying to prove it was impossible.
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18:28:07 <Seth> does anyone know hot to use the standard python http server stuff to access persistent python objects from a html form ?
19:03:58 <AaronSw> * AaronSw gets praise from David Stutz about the blog grid
19:09:00 <Seth> hi arron, how would you use the standard python http server stuff to access persistent python objects from a html form ?
19:25:03 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Hi all.  We're still running short on main rotation leaf servers for Open Projects Net.  We look for T3 or better, multihomed, well-connected and reliable.  If you think you might be able to help, please take a look at http://openprojects.net/sponsoring_servers.shtml . Please email me at lilo@openprojects.net if you're interested.  Thanks!
19:45:11 <bijan> blog grid?
19:51:24 <AaronSw> Man, this Merkle story is way worse than it appears
19:51:43 <AaronSw> blog grid: http://www.aaronsw.com/2002/etcon/notes
19:51:56 <AaronSw> Seth, dunno. i don't use the std http server
19:53:19 <AaronSw> heh, Sam Ruby has a good point. REST doesn't say anything about how to represent state but explains how to access objects and SOAP says little about accessing objects but does define how to represent state
19:58:24 <AaronSw> I think we need to replace the hammer-nail thing with the drunk-car-keys thing in many places.
20:00:04 <Seth> aaron, well then how would you access persisten python objects from a html form?
20:00:32 <AaronSw> i don't think i've ever found a need to do that
20:00:51 <AaronSw> but it can't be too hard
20:01:10 <deltab> it isn't
20:01:24 <Seth> so how do you do it deltab ?
20:01:45 <deltab> did you read the answers you got in #python ?
20:02:50 <Seth> well im trying to grok FastCGI but im a newbee with this 
20:03:25 <Seth> twister seems to be overkill .. i want a simple install of my app
20:04:14 <deltab> base it on HTTPServer
20:05:15 <Seth> i didnt get very far with edna, too advanced for me
20:06:35 <Seth> so how do i do that,  how do i base it on HTTPServer ? ... where do i create the instance of the object, inside HTTPServer ?
20:06:49 <deltab> er, I meant BaseHTTPServer
20:06:54 <deltab> what object is it?
20:07:12 <Seth> normally i would create my object by:
20:07:13 <AaronSw> Hm, Berkeley sounds like a good place to go to school.
20:07:18 <Seth> import bot
20:07:43 <Seth> objectA = bot.wake()
20:07:58 <bijan> AaronSw, I had a friend who went there, loved it.
20:08:43 <AaronSw> Yeah, I'm reading this interview with Whitfield Diffie. He says it's great: good energy, very leftist, lots of good friends. (Of course that was a while ago...) It's also a good sign that the cypherpunks are from there.
20:08:47 <Seth> so where in BaseHttPServer do i put objectA = bot.wake() ?
20:09:55 <Seth> such that i can access it from the html form?
20:11:05 <bijan> It be rather astonishing to me if *all* the 'hip'ness of berkeley disappeared.
20:12:26 <bijan> Of course, at wesleyan, a key part of the campas tour is to point out where they made the acid to pay of the Dead.
20:13:15 <bijan> I wonder if they still do Zonker day and Uncle Duke day.
20:13:42 <AaronSw> Heh!
20:14:11 <bijan> According to Lerner, student organized activities like Zonker Harris Day help prefrosh get a feel for what he called the "eclectic nature" of Wesleyan, and of WestCo itself. 
20:14:11 <bijan>  
20:14:11 <bijan> "I thought it went extremely well," said Benjamin Rhatigan Õ03, the WesFest intern. "We were really satisfied with the turnout and the responses of the prefrosh." 
20:14:11 <bijan> Hmm.
20:14:28 <bijan> What I recall about ZH day is that they hand out free drugs outside the dining hall.
20:14:54 <Seth> i spose i would create a class based on BaseHTTPServer and in the constructor for the class put self.objectA = bot.wake()
20:15:24 <bijan> "I was completely stoned out of my mind and had a really good time," said Manny Sharma Õ01. "I saw Slip, a groove-oriented rock band, and they were really good. Later the DJ came out and played. It was fun, it was just a bunch of people milling around having a good time." 
20:15:25 <bijan>  
20:15:25 <bijan> According to Perez-Longobardo, there was some initial apprehension about the event from the administration. She said Hill was concerned about drawing negative publicity regarding the drug theme of the event, especially in light of the recent press coverage in The New York Times of nudity at WestCo.  
20:15:27 <bijan> Heh.
20:15:38 <bijan> * bijan was strongly againts nudity at WestCo.
20:16:00 <deltab> class BotHTTPServer(BaseHTTPServer):
20:16:07 <Seth> but then how do i access objectA from the html form ... i mean i guess im not running a cgi handeler
20:16:33 <Seth> deltab, with you so far :)
20:17:28 <AaronSw> bijan was against nudity?
20:18:03 <bijan> *at westco*
20:18:07 <bijan> Elsewhere was fine :)
20:22:33 <AaronSw> It seems fitting that XRML, the Extensible Rights ML is covered by patents.
20:24:13 <bijan> Heh.
20:24:14 <Seth> deltab, ok i got:
20:24:15 <Seth>     def __init__(self,):
20:24:16 <Seth>         self.me = bot.wake()
20:24:45 <Seth> is that right ... then how do i get the cgi handler going or do i use somethig else?
20:25:03 <deltab> you don't want CGI
20:25:07 <AaronSw> * AaronSw heads off to write
20:25:31 <Seth> so what gets the imput from the form?
20:25:36 <deltab> read the docs for BaseHTTPServer
20:25:49 <deltab> you define handlers for GET etc.
20:42:42 <deltab> Seth: what sort of interaction will there be?
20:43:32 <Seth> from a input line you might get a assertion like {seth is great}
20:43:52 <Seth> for that you want to do
20:44:33 <Seth> me.assert('seth','is','great')
20:44:45 <deltab> input how?
20:44:57 <Seth> then the server responds with a html form about all the info about seth 
20:45:44 <Seth> form input <form=?><input name='input' ></form>
20:46:14 <deltab> just a single string?
20:46:29 <Seth> yeah the input in that case would be just a single string.
20:47:25 <deltab> is there already an interface for entering those strings, e.g. from stdin?
20:47:39 <Seth> the code for the bot is at http://robustai.net/mentography/bot.py
20:47:46 <deltab> ah
20:47:55 <deltab> thanks
20:48:11 <deltab> haha "This isa API"
20:49:02 <Seth> so now im trying to attach that to a server so that i can converse with it through html forms
20:49:19 <deltab> hmm, please don't put __ __ around names you invent yourself
20:49:43 <Seth> sorry, im a bozo with python still :(
20:50:44 <Seth> what should i use there, ___ triple underlines?
20:50:55 <deltab> __ __ indicates a name that has some special meaning to python
20:51:21 <Seth> so just take off the __ entirely?
20:51:26 <deltab> yeah
20:51:30 <Seth> k
21:09:48 <AaronSw> is sbp around? i need a sanity check
21:10:08 <AaronSw> or anyone else who cares about standards bodies...
21:10:27 <deltab> yes?
21:11:22 <AaronSw> Alright, I'll email you the thing I wrote. Let me know what you think.
21:12:49 <deltab> I won't read it for a while, I'm watching 24 :-)
21:12:55 <AaronSw> Heh.
21:14:09 <sbp> * sbp waves
21:14:11 <sbp> do you want comments on or off-log? I was just about to email you
21:14:23 <sbp> they're 9.5 on the pedantometer
21:14:51 <AaronSw> sbp!
21:15:07 <AaronSw> either one, thanks
21:15:41 <sbp> you ought to add a type to the <style> element, and wrap the contents in an SGML/XML comment
21:16:31 <sbp> also "margin: 0 0 0 0;" is redundant, and the line break after the content of a hypertext link causes whitespace in IE6
21:17:16 <AaronSw> yeah, the style stuff will go into another file
21:17:21 <AaronSw> why is the margin redundant?
21:17:23 <sbp> ah
21:17:34 <sbp> well, "margin: 0;" has the same effect
21:17:38 <AaronSw> oh
21:17:58 <AaronSw> is margin: 1em the same as margin: 1em 1em 1em 1em; then?
21:18:03 <sbp> yep
21:18:09 <AaronSw> where do i have a line break after a link?
21:18:42 <AaronSw> maybe my mailer wrapped it
21:18:42 <sbp> in the first <a> after the first <h3>
21:18:48 <sbp> ah, could be
21:18:59 <AaronSw> ah, the mm: link? yeah, that was the mailer
21:19:24 <sbp> (and margin: 1em 2em; is the same as margin: 1em 2em 1em 2em;, BTW)
21:19:28 <sbp> aha
21:19:36 <sbp> well, that's just about it. good job
21:22:38 <AaronSw> Thanks.
21:26:41 <AaronSw> But now I have something else for you to look at. Somehting important. :)
21:26:49 <AaronSw> or at least interesting
21:27:36 <sbp> Hmm... well, if you just sent it by email, it may have vanished
21:27:58 <sbp> (I actually just got an email and it's totally disappeared. didn't arive in my inbox. how odd)
21:28:06 <AaronSw> I haven't sent it yet...
21:28:31 <sbp> * sbp puzzles over his magical disappearing emails
21:30:47 <AaronSw> ok, sent
21:32:37 <sbp> hooray, it missed the bit bucket
21:33:20 <wmf> wmf (~wmf@cs666868-69.austin.rr.com) has joined #swhack
21:33:56 <AaronSw> interesting rDNS: cs666868
21:34:06 <AaronSw> the devil's IP
21:34:20 <AaronSw> .dns cs666868-69.austin.rr.com
21:34:20 <xena> cs666868-69.austin.rr.com - 66.68.68.69
21:34:33 <wmf> you can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding
21:35:01 <wmf> there's apparently not a single copy of A New Kind of Science in north Austin
21:35:31 <AaronSw> Hm, that reminds me to check my local borders
21:36:12 <sbp> you're right, that is interesting
21:36:19 <wmf> so I got some music instead
21:36:41 <sbp> how much of it can I discuss on log?
21:36:59 <AaronSw> i'd appreciate it if you kept it private until i published it
21:37:06 <AaronSw> Hm, bordersstore.com says there's a copy at my local borders
21:37:15 <sbp> sure
21:37:17 <AaronSw> err www.bordersstores.com
21:37:27 <sbp> I'll send comments by email :-)
21:39:25 <wmf> the most popular of my etcon photos is the one of Roger
21:39:32 <AaronSw> heh
21:39:59 <AaronSw> Hm, I thought singularity-in-2012 was common knowledge.
21:40:12 <AaronSw> But people link me for it... can't complain.
21:40:31 <wmf> heh, AaronSw the link whore
21:40:45 <AaronSw> Ooh, someone put it in their sig: "We've got less than 12 years left... ;^) "
21:41:28 <AaronSw> don't you read bernstein? audience (and thus links) is the currency of the web, man
21:42:47 <AaronSw> If it's good enough for this Patrick dude, Terrence McKenna, some scientists and the Maya, then it's good enough for me too.
21:43:13 <wmf> heh
21:43:33 <AaronSw> ooh, and the sun
21:45:55 <Seth> * Seth waves to sbp
21:57:15 <sbp> * sbp waves to Seth
21:57:22 <sbp> O.K. Aaron, I've sent some comments
21:57:30 <AaronSw> Thanks.
21:57:34 <AaronSw> Did I sound angry enough?
21:57:36 <sbp> np
21:57:45 <sbp> heh, heh
21:58:12 <Seth> sbp, any thoughts re turning http://robustai.net/mentography/bot.py into a http server ?
21:58:43 <sbp> none whatsoever. like Aaron, I don't really use Python's server all that often
21:59:09 <sbp> * sbp can imagine Aaron snarling and foaming at the mouth whilst writing it
21:59:18 <AaronSw> Heh, cool.
22:00:36 <Seth> well im just trying to get input from a html from and write back to the browser using the simplest metods available
22:00:41 <AaronSw> Sounds like you pretty much agree with it then. I guess I'll send it out soon. Hm, when would be best?
22:01:15 <deltab> Seth: simplest for who?
22:02:19 <sbp> I guess it depends on where you send it :-)
22:02:58 <deltab> * deltab resumes reading the code
22:03:02 <AaronSw> www-rdf-interest@w3.org, www-talk@w3.org and then cced to a bunch of relevant people 
22:03:18 <AaronSw> deltab, simplest for Seth, i expect
22:04:19 <Seth> yes simplest for me, im not that adapet at python ... also simplest to deploy, not a lot of packages to install
22:05:39 <Seth> for example, if hyou have to install apache to run it, that would be too much
22:06:25 <Seth> im thinking of just using CGIHTTP
22:07:13 <Seth> CGIHTTPServer.py and lopping off the stuff that runs the cgi script and responding to POST's right in that method
22:08:11 <deltab> Seth: that's what BaseHTTPServer is
22:09:43 <Seth> deltab, i think i got that, i was just going to use the CGIHTTPServer modele as an example and edit all the stuff out that i dont need 
22:10:17 <deltab> Seth: add stuff to the base rather than removing it from cgi
22:11:03 <Seth> deltab, ok .. so how do you get the imput from the form in base ?
22:13:13 <deltab> * deltab reads hurriedly
22:13:49 <Seth> deltab, is all the input in self.raw_requestline ?
22:30:12 <deltab> Seth: like it says, it's raw - you can use self.command and self.path
23:46:38 <Ash> good afternoon
23:48:14 <Ash> * Ash yawns
23:58:43 <wmf> that Simpsons ending was funny