IRC log of swhack on 2002-04-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:00:13 [deltab]

sbp: it's not even well-formed

00:00:19 [bijan]

62. Edward Lipski I designed the SOAP interface for my company. After 1 full year in service I can assure you: It's pointless.

00:00:30 [bijan]

er...there's no such thing as well-formed HTML, is there?

00:01:05 [sbp]

deltab: http://www.petitiononline.com/cgi-bin/suggestion.cgi?httpgoog/petition.html

00:01:36 [deltab]

urm...

00:01:41 [deltab]

GET http://www.prescod.net/rest/googleapi.html --> 200 OK

00:01:51 [deltab]

...

00:01:52 [deltab]

<meta http-equiv="Refresh"

00:01:52 [deltab]

content="0;url=googleapi">

00:03:11 [syn|ack_]

68.

00:03:12 [syn|ack_]

John E. Barham

00:03:12 [syn|ack_]

K.I.S.S.

00:03:38 [bijan]

I prefer K.I.S.M-F :)

00:03:46 [syn|ack_]

M-F ?

00:04:12 [bijan]

Er..give it the obvious rude, obscene expansion :)

00:04:29 [syn|ack_]

ahh :)

00:04:54 [deltab]

Microsoft-what?

00:05:24 [bijan]

Ahem. Add what you would add if the "M" expanded to "mother" :)

00:05:31 [deltab]

:-)

00:06:00 [sbp]

keep it simple, my-friend

00:06:08 [bijan]

Oh dear.

00:06:20 [bijan]

What's a cleanminded boy like you doing on a channel like this?

00:06:31 [sbp]

fuck knows

00:07:00 [syn|ack_]

lol

00:09:41 [pawn_]

pawn_ has quit (Remote closed the connection)

00:09:41 [jillium]

jillium has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))

00:09:44 [bijan]

sean, did you read the note from david orchard on the tag list where he said to paul prescod, essentially: "If you send me *369* VERY LONG EMAILS in 3 months, I will NOT read them all"

00:10:13 [sbp]

Hmm... when was that?

00:10:20 [bijan]

Last week.

00:10:52 [sbp]

must have missed it. When you get 369 very long www-tag emails in three months...

00:11:59 [sbp]

aha:-

00:11:59 [sbp]

[[[

00:11:59 [sbp]

I can't read every message that goes through my mailbox. In the past 3

00:11:59 [sbp]

months alone, I've gotten an average of 4 emails a day from you (369 to be

00:11:59 [sbp]

exact). And they are all typically long.

00:11:59 [sbp]

]]] - www-tag

00:12:01 [sbp]

- http://www.w3.org/2002/02/mid/00d201c1ecab$30486c60$540ba8c0@beasys.com

00:12:18 [bijan]

Yep.

00:12:21 [bijan]

Hilarious.

00:13:22 [sbp]

heh, it is pretty good

00:13:30 [sbp]

"RESTafarians"

00:13:49 [bijan]

Hmm.

00:14:13 [bijan]

is that a slam against prescod?

00:14:21 [sbp]

there have been quite a few good www-tag emails

00:15:13 [sbp]

the email? it certainly seems to be. but a polite slam :-)

00:16:00 [bijan]

No, but isn't RESTafarian a play on rastafarian?

00:16:27 [sbp]

yeah... is Paul a Rastafarian?

00:16:50 [bijan]

I don't think so.

00:17:08 [bijan]

But he's black, isn't he?

00:17:24 [bijan]

IOW, I'm wondering if it's some weird racist thing from Orchard.

00:17:33 [bijan]

Seems unlikely, but it's also a bit odd.

00:17:52 [sbp]

I'm not sure why DO came up with the phrase. I don't think he would have included it to be racist - he was probably just engaging in free association

00:18:04 [sbp]

but I see your point

00:19:52 [sbp]

and I'll even venture the opinion that it was carless of him. But AFAIK, nobody has complained, or asked him to retract it. As I say, I think it was just an off-the-cuff free-association thing

00:20:22 [bijan]

I agree with the former.

00:20:30 [bijan]

Well, the first.

00:20:32 [bijan]

And the second.

00:20:37 [bijan]

Probably the third.

00:39:14 [CygBot]

CygBot (~sbp@m498-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack

00:39:20 [sbp]

heh:-

00:39:22 [sbp]

1$ lynx http://monkeyfist.com/articles/815/plain --source --dump

00:39:27 [CygBot]

> <!-- THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS -->

00:39:27 [CygBot]

> [...]

00:39:29 [CygBot]

CygBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))

00:39:52 [bijan]

Woody!

00:40:12 [sbp]

there are some other good comments in there...

00:41:18 [sbp]

* sbp puts on Liege & Lief

01:33:56 [AaronSw]

wow, i got some weird pmsgs

01:34:07 [AaronSw]

--

01:34:25 [AaronSw]

<hitman4ever> hi

01:34:26 [AaronSw]

<hitman4ever> u there?

01:34:26 [AaronSw]

<hitman4ever> ««« Ë×Çü®§îöñ »»» Version«8.11»| mIRC«v5.81 32bit»| «Get Your Copy At http://excursion.cjb.net » [note this was all in garish yellow and orange]

01:34:27 [AaronSw]

<hitman4ever> Oops [same]

01:34:27 [AaronSw]

<hitman4ever> *g

01:34:27 [AaronSw]

<hitman4ever> okay

01:34:29 [AaronSw]

<hitman4ever> ur not

01:34:31 [AaronSw]

<hitman4ever> cu

01:34:33 [AaronSw]

*** hitman4ever has quit IRC (Client Quit)

01:34:35 [AaronSw]

--

01:34:41 [sbp]

yeah. he asked for you in here too

01:34:53 [AaronSw]

That kendall, still killing fascists after all these years!

01:36:16 [AaronSw]

weird, i wonder if he wanted to kill me or something

01:36:17 [AaronSw]

heh:

01:36:18 [AaronSw]

<!-- Good night, Uncle Noam, wherever you are. -->

01:36:18 [AaronSw]

01:36:18 [AaronSw]

<!-- Are you getting tired and lonely? Dump the bosses off your back!. -->

01:37:28 [AaronSw]

.wn prima facie

01:37:29 [xena]

error: unable to define prima facie

01:37:42 [AaronSw]

Hm, I wonder what version its using.

01:38:52 [sbp]

.wn wordnet version

01:38:52 [xena]

error: unable to define wordnet version

01:38:56 [sbp]

oh well

01:39:06 [AaronSw]

what's up with markpasc?? oh, got it now

01:40:12 [AaronSw]

heh @ <jillzilla> END OF WORLD!

01:40:52 [AaronSw]

I just found that two of my friends from school are spending next year abroad in China.

01:41:02 [bijan]

prima facie is a latin phrase, I doubt it's in wordnet

01:41:09 [AaronSw]

no, it is in 1.6

01:41:20 [bijan]

interesting!

01:41:25 [AaronSw]

15th thought: Quick, I must stock them up on Peek-A-Booty CDs.

01:41:26 [deltab]

From WordNet (r) 1.6 [wn]:

01:41:26 [deltab]

prima facie

01:41:26 [deltab]

adj : as it seems at first sight; "a prima facie case of murder"

01:41:26 [deltab]

adv : at first sight

01:41:35 [sbp]

pre 1.6, then

01:42:15 [deltab]

or the command you're using doesn't handle terms with spaces

01:42:42 [AaronSw]

ah, good point

01:43:34 [AaronSw]

Ben found a Python book that makes sense to him, and got really into IDLE last night. I blame sbp.

01:43:43 [sbp]

heh, heh

01:44:24 [bijan]

Hmm: Subject: Undeliverable mail--"learn more about how we use your information,"

01:45:43 [bijan]

My goodness! 36,000 people paid $30 each to salon!?!?

01:45:55 [bijan]

And they still need nasty ads?

01:46:02 [AaronSw]

giggle @ <sbp> NLP? in Java? on a 486?

01:46:56 [sbp]

I was picturing a big hole in the ground where danbri's computer once was :-)

01:46:56 [AaronSw]

a kindred soul: <danbri> MOO's more fun than IRC

01:47:27 [deltab]

well of course

01:47:35 [bijan]

On the other hand, they claim 3 million readers a month.

01:48:08 [deltab]

you have places that can be decorated and objects that can be interacted with

01:48:27 [AaronSw]

argh, can't get to danbri's moo

01:49:32 [AaronSw]

jillzilla is skepitcal of S-W? hmm

01:49:52 [AaronSw]

BenSw is missing a closing paren: (Homeschool today

01:50:57 [sbp]

)

01:51:02 [sbp]

missing parens really bug me

01:51:12 [sbp]

except in smileys

01:51:27 [sbp]

since there, the purpose of the character is simply for the glyph

01:52:45 [bijan]

"Microsoft: Sanctions could confuse users " Well, *these* "sanctions* confuse *me*.

01:53:04 [bijan]

Since what i was expecting was MS to be dismembered like an overboiled trout.

01:53:28 [AaronSw]

<syn|ack> He mentioned this channel at that time

01:53:28 [AaronSw]

ah, so that's what the q was for

01:54:02 [Ash]

Ash (~amathews@166.70.45.199) has joined #swhack

01:54:19 [AaronSw]

here, here! bijan

01:55:11 [jillium]

jillium (~jill@dsl092-186-227.sfo2.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #swhack

01:55:15 [sbp]

jiiiill!

01:55:18 [jillium]

sbp!

01:55:28 [jillium]

* jillium has her network working with the new hub.

01:55:32 [jillium]

Now to find deltab.

01:55:32 [sbp]

'ray

01:55:38 [AaronSw]

gasp! <jillzilla> I don't believe the "oll korrect" theory for the etymology of OK.

01:55:48 [sbp]

ah. she was simply misinformed

01:55:50 [jillium]

I do now.

01:55:54 [jillium]

I even *like* it now.

01:55:55 [AaronSw]

phew

01:56:09 [AaronSw]

Anti-bell ringing and oll that

01:56:14 [sbp]

heh, heh

01:56:23 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw tries to find jillium finding deltab

01:56:30 [jillium]

* jillium blinks.

01:56:32 [deltab]

hi jillium

01:56:32 [jillium]

I have a server for him!

01:56:35 [sbp]

* sbp tries to find Aaron finding... no...

01:56:39 [jillium]

but don't tell him...ooops!

01:56:50 [jillium]

dear me.

01:57:00 [deltab]

yes, dear you

01:57:12 [jillium]

* jillium flutters eyelashes.

01:57:16 [AaronSw]

heh @ <sbp> <jillzilla> touché (latin for...)

01:57:22 [sbp]

Dear Jill, it has come to our attention that you're using the phrase "dear me" and awful lot...

01:57:32 [jillium]

I've been doing that for years.

01:57:33 [sbp]

heh! I was hoping you'd find that

01:58:02 [jillium]

AaronSw: must you read logs in public? It's a terrible habit, you know. Soon you will be picking your nose.

01:58:07 [sbp]

it's a nice idiosyncrasy

01:58:10 [AaronSw]

:-)

01:58:12 [jillium]

deltab: um, are you here?

01:58:21 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw decides not to comment on the nose bit

01:58:21 [deltab]

I believe so

01:58:32 [jillium]

are you interested in this server thing

01:58:33 [jillium]

?

01:58:33 [AaronSw]

thank goodness for t2s, I can read scrollback while answering current questions

01:58:45 [deltab]

jillium: of course

01:58:49 [sbp]

this email was sent via. a feedback form, therefore it's spam

01:58:54 [jillium]

Are you somewhere I can phone you?

01:59:06 [deltab]

I'm in the UK

01:59:15 [jillium]

I know. Are you phonable?

01:59:23 [jillium]

* jillium phones the UK all the time.

01:59:24 [AaronSw]

lol @ <Ash> * sbp CHUCKLES!@!! AHAHAHAHA ROFFLE@!@!111

01:59:35 [AaronSw]

:-) @ <jillzilla> Yeah, Ash, you really captured sbp's style there.

01:59:40 [Ash]

hehehe

01:59:51 [sbp]

ROFFLE!!

01:59:53 [Ash]

I know, I'm an IRC artist.

01:59:56 [jillium]

we're so witty when Aaron isn't around.

02:00:01 [jillium]

AaronSw, that is.

02:00:04 [Ash]

And sbp has adopted his new style.

02:00:09 [AaronSw]

Either one triggers t2s

02:00:12 [Ash]

jillium: Indeed.

02:00:23 [sbp]

heh, heh. you guys certainly have strange notions of "art"

02:00:30 [sbp]

well, just Ash

02:00:46 [jillium]

* jillium wonders wth deltab is doing.

02:00:54 [Ash]

sbp: Heh heh.

02:01:18 [jillium]

deltab: let's get this going, ffs. It's not good for me to be sitting here rather than doing what I had planned for Saturday.

02:01:27 [Ash]

ffs!

02:01:29 [AaronSw]

Ash, I used to watch Blues... oh, this channel is logged

02:01:34 [Ash]

* Ash wonders what jillium is doing with ffs

02:01:39 [sbp]

nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no *more*!

02:01:40 [bijan]

Eh...amaya 6.0's SVG rendering is a *little* better, I think. Still nowhere near the quality of the adobe plugin.

02:01:45 [Ash]

AaronSw: Blues clues is not the same without Steve :-(

02:01:54 [jillium]

Have you seen it with...is it Joe?

02:01:54 [AaronSw]

Steve is Gone?!?!?!?!

02:01:58 [jillium]

STEVE IS GONE!

02:02:05 [jillium]

* jillium was the first to report this on #infoanarchy.

02:02:12 [jillium]

But I learned it from the web site.

02:02:15 [deltab]

jillium: sorry, was fetching handset from downstairs

02:02:20 [AaronSw]

I thought that he was just joking when he fell over after I shot that... oh, this channel is logged

02:02:20 [jillium]

aha.

02:02:33 [sbp]

heh, heh

02:02:52 [jillium]

deltab: i ask because it's something like 3am there.

02:03:00 [AaronSw]

We were at Nick Studios, and he was filming some international commercials, and I just wanted to say hello but it got all out of hand... all out of hand!

02:03:02 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw cries

02:03:11 [jillium]

* jillium cries too.

02:03:19 [jillium]

Who? Steve?

02:03:37 [Ash]

jillium: I have not seen this joe yet.

02:03:52 [Ash]

We don't have cable, but can see blue's clues on saturday morning.

02:04:03 [Ash]

@ http://www.steveswebpage.com/

02:04:20 [jillium]

I wonder if I have cable.

02:04:29 [AaronSw]

so unfair, Monty Python weekend...

02:04:33 [jillium]

I watched television the other day.

02:04:33 [Ash]

Oh man.

02:04:35 [chumpy]

A: http://www.steveswebpage.com/ from Ash

02:04:41 [Ash]

A::STEVE RULES

02:04:57 [chumpy]

commented item A

02:05:29 [sbp]

there are rules for Steve?

02:05:42 [AaronSw]

is jeremiah here?

02:05:56 [sbp]

idle time: 5hrs 55mins 30secs

02:08:28 [AaronSw]

lol @ <bijan> Er..give it the obvious rude, obscene expansion :)

02:08:28 [AaronSw]

<deltab> Microsoft-what?

02:10:12 [AaronSw]

i love os x. i can pull out the ethernet cord and my irc connection doesn't die

02:11:00 [sbp]

I wonder how it would handle the shovel smashing test?

02:11:16 [sbp]

to be fair, most OSes don't pass it

02:11:18 [AaronSw]

That doesn't sound like something I want to try.

02:11:56 [AaronSw]

hm? @ <bijan> Woody!

02:12:03 [bijan]

Guthrie

02:12:11 [bijan]

"This machine kills facists"

02:12:36 [bijan]

See: http://www.subvertise.org/details.php?code=238

02:12:43 [bijan]

That's where kendall got it from.

02:13:51 [AaronSw]

oh, right

02:14:14 [AaronSw]

whoa, steve grew a beard

02:14:42 [jillium]

I can imagine he would want to look older.

02:14:48 [jillium]

In order to get laid in this lifetime...

02:15:18 [AaronSw]

heh: will you appear at my child's birthday party? thanks for asking, but um no.

02:15:50 [AaronSw]

the ftrain.com connection is pretty clear

02:16:14 [bijan]

Huh?

02:16:26 [bijan]

Hmm. I should write a parody of my own article using this: http://www.google.com/technology/pigeonrank.html

02:16:38 [AaronSw]

heh

02:16:41 [AaronSw]

steveswebpage was designed by the ftrain guy

02:16:54 [bijan]

Paul? really?

02:17:11 [AaronSw]

so he says

02:17:53 [bijan]

Hmm. http://www.steveswebpage.com gives me a big set of non-pics :)

02:17:58 [bijan]

i shall have to rag paul about it.

02:18:13 [AaronSw]

"(also paul helped build this web site and runs ftrain.com)"

02:18:20 [jillium]

I'm getting "service temporarily unavailable". Hmm.

02:18:28 [jillium]

not the second time...

02:18:32 [AaronSw]

ugh, me too

02:18:45 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw tries to download some dust mite songs

02:18:48 [bijan]

I'll definitely have to link to paul's google article: http://www.ftrain.com/robot_exclusion_protocol.html

02:19:07 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw gets affirmed by steve

02:19:13 [bijan]

``I am Google! I find many good things. I find that pair of underwear with the little dice printed all over them. And I watch the tape of you with the life-sized Stallman puppet. These are good unique things."

02:19:16 [jillium]

steve's web site is a touch overloaded, I think.

02:20:39 [sbp]

SMAK!

02:21:13 [AaronSw]

Woo, Google is indexing the wiki again

02:21:17 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw cheers for himself

02:21:27 [sbp]

great!

02:21:32 [sbp]

well done old chap

02:21:41 [AaronSw]

[dun, dun, dun] THE WIKI

02:22:52 [sbp]

ooh, sheepchops!

02:23:11 [AaronSw]

this dustmites thing isn't bad

02:23:38 [Ash]

Yeah, it's not.

02:24:32 [jillium]

distmites thing?

02:24:52 [AaronSw]

steve's album, songs for dust mites

02:26:52 [sbp]

personally, I'm not sure that dust mites deserve to have songs written about them. of course, I could be wrong. actually, it's a very interesting subject. who are we to judge whether or not these tiny little annoying creatures should have songs written about them? I mean, they may even play an important role in the world that we are unaware of, and hence writing a song about them would be a fully justifyable thing to do. OTOH, perhaps they really are just annoying

02:27:45 [AaronSw]

even his squirrel is in a band: http://www.steveswebpage.com/squirrels_01.html

02:27:54 [AaronSw]

got cur off at "perhaps they really are just annoying "

02:28:05 [sbp]

[...] little things that don't matter. I find that difficult to believe, because they've certainly had *some* effect, [...]

02:34:15 [AaronSw]

rave reviews for 6171talk: "Nice article. It actually persuades me that the Semantic Web might happen."

02:34:29 [sbp]

source? NYT?

02:34:39 [AaronSw]

Private email

02:34:39 [bijan]

Oh, I had some more bits to slag you on.

02:34:42 [bijan]

About that.

02:34:51 [bijan]

But only if your head gets too swollen :)

02:34:55 [AaronSw]

on the long-form version? go ahead

02:35:08 [bijan]

no, i forgot 'em all.

02:35:21 [bijan]

And I don't remember the url.

02:35:30 [sbp]

.google 6171talk

02:35:31 [AaronSw]

aaronsw.com/2002/6171talk/talk

02:35:31 [xena]

no results found.

02:35:33 [bijan]

And my irc client isn't letting through any urls that I don't wan tot see.

02:35:41 [AaronSw]

heh

02:35:45 [bijan]

(Thank GOD for smalltalk!)

02:36:20 [bijan]

After all, slag slag slag and no acknowledgement! :)

02:36:46 [bijan]

Would it have killed you to have but a "This talk was ptdbb" at the bottom?

02:37:13 [sbp]

privately taken down by Betty?

02:37:24 [bijan]

pecked to death by bijan

02:37:42 [AaronSw]

neat: "Congratulations! You have passed part one of the two-part application process to become a Google Answers Researcher."

02:37:48 [AaronSw]

what's part two? getting pecked to death?

02:37:53 [sbp]

heh, heh

02:37:55 [bijan]

peck peck peck.

02:38:06 [sbp]

part two: "are you 18 or over?"

02:38:11 [AaronSw]

lol!

02:38:16 [bijan]

"Listen, you didn't really want to ask that question did yoU? At least, not in *that* way."

02:38:34 [AaronSw]

there are some fun questions. like "Who am I?

02:38:48 [AaronSw]

and "should i become a rock star or an academic?"

02:38:55 [bijan]

"I mean, if you consider what one *should* mean by 'foo', it's clear you *couldn't* have meant 'Is foo a bar?'"

02:39:26 [AaronSw]

OK, no one give an account to bijan

02:39:54 [bijan]

And account of what?

02:40:00 [bijan]

s/and/an/

02:40:17 [AaronSw]

a google researcher account

02:40:18 [bijan]

"Hello. I would have answered your question but there were too many fuckin' typos."

02:40:27 [bijan]

Kendall's applied to.

02:40:30 [bijan]

too

02:40:31 [bijan]

Not me.

02:40:35 [bijan]

Not yet at least.

02:40:51 [bijan]

Why get paid when I already do it for ungrateful losers for free?

02:40:53 [bijan]

Uh.......

02:41:16 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw coughs

02:41:48 [bijan]

Well, let's take it one step at a time.

02:41:54 [sbp]

a nice big raddish lead

02:42:04 [bijan]

I'm trying to wean myself *off* answering stuff for ungrateful losers for free.

02:42:18 [AaronSw]

Aw.

02:42:38 [bijan]

Actually, off answering blah blahblah at *all*.

02:42:53 [AaronSw]

motivational quotes: "I'll never get off this planet." - Luke Skywalker

02:44:02 [sbp]

is the "eeeee" sound in "lead" long or short to you guys?

02:44:11 [bijan]

Depends.

02:44:12 [sbp]

well... eeeee implies long

02:44:39 [bijan]

verb or metal?

02:44:45 [sbp]

as in "a nice big raddish lead"

02:44:52 [bijan]

Er..

02:44:57 [bijan]

It's silent in that.

02:45:11 [sbp]

no it's not. you must have instinctively read it one way or t'other

02:45:14 [bijan]

In "take the lead" it's eeeeee

02:45:15 [bijan]

Nope.

02:45:24 [bijan]

In "lead figurines" it's edd.

02:45:38 [bijan]

Unless you pronouce 'edd' as 'eeeeeeeeeeedd'

02:45:42 [sbp]

gah, Aaron?

02:45:47 [AaronSw]

what?

02:45:56 [bijan]

wha'ts a raddish lead?

02:45:59 [sbp]

edie's in the space-time continuum? heh

02:46:06 [sbp]

lead: leeeed, or led?

02:46:16 [bijan]

it *depends*!

02:46:43 [AaronSw]

lead is always leed

02:46:55 [jillium]

except when it's led.

02:46:56 [AaronSw]

er, unless it's the metal

02:46:57 [bijan]

er..NO NO NO :)_

02:46:58 [sbp]

thank you!

02:47:24 [sbp]

I still think that there is an out-of-context default for people

02:47:34 [AaronSw]

note, "the" metal, not like a metal leed

02:47:42 [sbp]

heh, heh

02:48:00 [bijan]

A lead pencil.

02:48:07 [bijan]

Which involves no metal :)

02:48:19 [sbp]

it could be the winner of a pencil race

02:48:26 [bijan]

As elementary school teacher love to tell you over and over.

02:48:35 [bijan]

Just like a tomato is a fruit.

02:48:57 [bijan]

What about leading in typography?

02:49:22 [sbp]

Michael Everson is the leading typographer

02:49:49 [bijan]

Er..ok. I'm not getting the schtick, and, deep down in side, I don't at all care.

02:49:59 [bijan]

Actually, up top on the surface I don't care either :)

02:50:04 [sbp]

heh, heh

02:50:26 [sbp]

these things are important to me for some reason or another

02:50:29 [bijan]

Was that 'heh, heh', 'heeeeeeeh, heeeeeeeeh', or 'head, head'

02:50:39 [bijan]

Oh, why is easy: You're deranged.

02:50:44 [sbp]

it's pronounced "bwahahahahaha"

02:51:05 [bijan]

BTW, you may be interested: http://www.addall.com/New/BestSeller.cgi?location=10000&state=AK&dispCurr=USD&isbn=0805366814&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.addall.com%2FBrowse%2FDetail%2F0805366814.html&author=&title=

02:51:12 [bijan]

Or, given the URL, maybe not.

02:51:29 [sbp]

a*ha*!

02:51:46 [sbp]

23.48: not too bad, actually

02:51:51 [bijan]

yep.

02:51:58 [bijan]

Quite good in fact.

02:53:49 [Ash]

Ash has quit ("hail satan")

03:10:08 [AaronSw]

oh, this is great!

03:10:09 [AaronSw]

@ http://www.dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html

03:10:45 [chumpy]

B: http://www.dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html from AaronSw

03:11:02 [AaronSw]

B:|Behind the Scenes of "Worse is Better"

03:11:22 [chumpy]

titled item B

03:11:43 [AaronSw]

B::"One fellow was seriously nervous that I might have a mental disease."

03:12:00 [chumpy]

commented item B

03:25:30 [AaronSw]

Listening to radiohead is weird. I never know if the t2s is the song or IRC.

03:26:23 [bijan]

IRC is the Song.

03:26:33 [AaronSw]

Ah.

03:26:47 [AaronSw]

Danny O'Brian: "Remember: Your work email may be monitored if sending sensitive material. Sending >500KB attachments is forbidden by the Geneva Convention. Your country may be at risk if you fail to comply."

03:28:20 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw listens to http://www.ntk.net/2002/04/26/riaa_we_love_you.mp3

03:28:25 [AaronSw]

"the entire music foodchain is at serious risk"

03:28:47 [AaronSw]

"no question the most insidious virus in the midst of this insidious downloading of music is downloading on the net"

03:28:57 [AaronSw]

[eerie music]

03:32:13 [AaronSw]

freudian slip at foodchain, there

03:32:14 [AaronSw]

*chomp*

03:34:33 [AaronSw]

The Invader Zim world is so freaky

03:36:19 [davb]

Zim!

03:36:28 [jillium]

zim!

03:37:09 [AaronSw]

Zim!

03:37:55 [jillium]

ZIM!

03:38:04 [davb]

I love that show.

03:39:01 [AaronSw]

"we have claimed this downed alien loveship and want to share it with all humanity. but humanity must first prove itself worthy"

03:39:24 [sbp]

Zim?!

03:39:34 [davb]

kinda like what you guys do here.

03:40:38 [sbp]

exactly!

03:41:05 [sbp]

it's ever so almost nearly a clear shwacky definition of swhack

03:43:26 [AaronSw]

"i am government man. come from the government. the government has sent me. oh ho ho. this is no alien lifeform, this is a government aircraft."

03:53:30 [jeremiah]

hey

03:53:39 [Ash]

Ash (~amathews@166.70.45.199) has joined #swhack

03:53:50 [jeremiah]

AaronSw: can I use infogami to date as a triples database?

03:53:51 [jeremiah]

is that what it is?

03:54:04 [AaronSw]

yep

03:54:06 [jeremiah]

ok

03:54:08 [Ash]

Re

03:54:09 [jeremiah]

what interface do I use?

03:54:13 [AaronSw]

"welcome to conventium, the convention hall planet"

03:54:21 [AaronSw]

Store(

03:55:04 [jeremiah]

ok

03:55:26 [jeremiah]

wow, I'm acutally reusing my own code

03:55:37 [jeremiah]

* jeremiah just noticed the line: __author__ = "Jeremiah Rogers <http://kingprimate.com/>"

03:55:41 [jeremiah]

jesus

03:56:32 [AaronSw]

:-)

03:57:27 [jeremiah]

* jeremiah is working on a desktop search-engine type thing

03:57:30 [jeremiah]

but cooler

03:58:15 [AaronSw]

Neat.

03:58:24 [AaronSw]

that pleshdesktop thing you described?

03:58:26 [jeremiah]

http://kingprimate.com/gems/googleDesktop.opml

03:58:36 [jeremiah]

did you read the earlier logs?

03:58:37 [jeremiah]

yes

03:58:54 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw reads

03:59:02 [jeremiah]

well, there is nothing of substance in the logs

04:00:23 [jeremiah]

so don't worry

04:00:24 [jeremiah]

but yes, I was talking about it earlier

04:01:16 [AaronSw]

Hm, on here?

04:01:22 [jeremiah]

I think so

04:01:26 [jeremiah]

doesn't matter

04:01:57 [AaronSw]

i read thru all the logs and didn't see it... hmm

04:02:04 [jeremiah]

don't worry though

04:02:09 [jeremiah]

I just asked deltab if he knew about infogami

04:02:12 [jeremiah]

he said he didn't

04:02:34 [jeremiah]

you mentioned me talking about a pleshdesktop earlier though

04:02:35 [jeremiah]

what was that?

04:02:55 [syn|ack_]

Can anyone point me to a good howto XPath resource?

04:03:24 [jeremiah]

* jeremiah really enjoys python's "import x as y" thing

04:03:28 [AaronSw]

oh, right. the pleshdesktop thing was on your weblog

04:03:40 [jeremiah]

ah

04:03:52 [deltab]

jeremiah: don't overuse it or you'll confuse people :-)

04:04:08 [jeremiah]

hmm

04:07:48 [jeremiah]

the only problem with using store is that I want to be able to delete old entries

04:07:54 [jeremiah]

or nullify them

04:08:22 [AaronSw]

Hm, I guess we can add a deletion mechanism.

04:09:39 [jeremiah]

well basically I need to store: the relationships between fileids, the files which correspond to fileids, the fileids postion in the filerank, and the fileid's metadata

04:10:38 [AaronSw]

storing the actual file or just its location?

04:10:45 [jeremiah]

location

04:10:52 [jeremiah]

going ot use the filesystem to store the file, at least for now

04:10:55 [sbp]

.google Zvon XPath

04:10:56 [xena]

Zvon XPath: http://www.zvon.org/xxl/XPathTutorial/General/examples.html

04:10:56 [AaronSw]

have you read any Ted Nelson?

04:11:02 [jeremiah]

AaronSw: no

04:11:05 [sbp]

syn|ack: there you go

04:11:43 [jeremiah]

is this for storing the file locations, or should I use it for other stuff too?

04:12:03 [jeremiah]

* jeremiah is looking, btw

04:12:05 [AaronSw]

is what?

04:12:10 [jeremiah]

xpath

04:12:19 [jeremiah]

I mean is there other ted nelson stuff I should look at

04:12:29 [AaronSw]

I think XPath is for synack

04:12:50 [AaronSw]

Ted Nelson: I think Future of Information touched on this

04:13:09 [wmf]

wmf (~wmf@cs666869-177.austin.rr.com) has joined #swhack

04:13:12 [syn|ack_]

sbp: i've read that one, but i find it a bit terse....

04:13:15 [wmf]

swhack!

04:13:26 [syn|ack_]

sbp: anything a bit more verbose?

04:13:28 [AaronSw]

wmf!

04:13:41 [AaronSw]

Teacher: "In short, the universe is doomed, DOOMED, DOOOOOOOOOOOMED!"

04:13:41 [syn|ack_]

* syn|ack_ is thick and needs clarity :)

04:14:04 [jillium]

God, I have to see more Zim.

04:14:04 [jeremiah]

AaronSw: FoI talked about search-engines on desktops or what?

04:14:13 [AaronSw]

Yeah, for that.

04:14:30 [jeremiah]

hrm

04:14:31 [AaronSw]

but you should probably read his classic, Literary Machines, first.

04:14:31 [AaronSw]

.google s

04:14:32 [xena]

s: http://www.gnu.org

04:14:40 [AaronSw]

.google m

04:14:40 [xena]

m: http://www.echo.lu

04:14:44 [AaronSw]

weird

04:14:52 [jeremiah]

I realize the importance of reading up, but I'd rather not read 2 books before I get started on my project

04:14:58 [jeremiah]

unless they're extremely relevant

04:15:06 [jeremiah]

and should be read before I start working

04:15:17 [AaronSw]

OK, just read them sometime.

04:15:21 [jeremiah]

alright

04:16:30 [wmf]

AaronSw: did you read this one? http://www.dreamsongs.com/NewFiles/WhitherSoftware.pdf page 9 looks like REST vs RPC

04:16:43 [AaronSw]

hm, no. it was pdf... let me grab it

04:18:09 [jeremiah]

can't find much on nelson except stuff about xanadu

04:18:10 [AaronSw]

they're in some nasty fax format as i recall

04:18:18 [wmf]

poor Ted Nelson, wrote himself out of history

04:18:26 [AaronSw]

wrote himself out?

04:18:28 [Ash]

jeremiah: Check out Cringley's documentary and see him get pissed off on camera

04:18:30 [Ash]

heh heh

04:18:36 [AaronSw]

ash, which one?

04:18:46 [Ash]

AaronSw: Umm.. the one he did on the internet.

04:18:52 [Ash]

Similar to 'Triumph of the Nerds'

04:18:56 [AaronSw]

Hm...

04:18:56 [jeremiah]

hmm

04:18:59 [Ash]

* Ash looks up title

04:19:07 [AaronSw]

literary machines: http://www.sfc.keio.ac.jp/~ted/TN/PUBS/LM/LMpage.html

04:19:17 [Ash]

.google cringley nerds documentary

04:19:17 [xena]

cringley nerds documentary: http://www.techtv.com/screensavers/supergeek/story/0,24330,10930,00.html

04:19:21 [Ash]

hrm

04:19:27 [Ash]

Oh, it's Nerds 2.0.1

04:19:27 [AaronSw]

nerds 2.0.1?

04:19:28 [Ash]

there you go.

04:19:29 [Ash]

Yup.

04:19:30 [AaronSw]

snap

04:19:33 [wmf]

AaronSw: he kept Xanadu details secret until after the Web exploded; then it was too late for people to use his ideas

04:19:44 [AaronSw]

Ah.

04:19:55 [AaronSw]

They're still secret, for all the sense they make.

04:20:00 [wmf]

indeed

04:20:10 [Ash]

They're like Userland "RFC's"

04:20:11 [Ash]

bwahaha

04:20:38 [Ash]

* Ash actually goes to read

04:20:39 [jeremiah]

userland pushes ideas out pretty quick

04:21:01 [AaronSw]

uh oh. an Ash-jeremiah userland fight

04:21:06 [Ash]

Heh.

04:21:17 [jeremiah]

so anyways, back to my problem with needing to delete certain triples

04:21:23 [Ash]

AaronSw: I'm too tired to make fun of UserLand.. I must go read :)

04:21:30 [AaronSw]

have fun

04:21:34 [wmf]

I'll just ignore this and go back to coding Radio 9 :-)

04:22:37 [jeremiah]

I need to stop reading weblogs, it eats so much fucking time

04:22:47 [AaronSw]

no kidding

04:23:36 [jeremiah]

I feel bad now because I want to read those books but I don't like dropping everything to read 'em

04:24:19 [AaronSw]

hm, i am tempted to buy a copy from eastgate

04:24:26 [davb]

has anyone seen Zoe?

04:24:32 [AaronSw]

I've downloaded it.

04:24:44 [davb]

what do you think?

04:24:53 [davb]

it won't run on my linux machine.

04:24:57 [AaronSw]

It seemed to complicated to import mail, so i gave up

04:25:01 [davb]

ah.

04:25:05 [wmf]

man, some of Gabriel's stuff is really zen

04:25:30 [davb]

I have an idea to do something like that. but I think I want to have it read mail from a Maildir.

04:25:36 [jeremiah]

zoe partly got me thinking about this whole search engine thing

04:26:01 [jeremiah]

that and itunes

04:26:51 [AaronSw]

here's a ted nelson summary: hierarchies are evil. links provide freedom. go forth and create.

04:26:59 [jeremiah]

cool

04:27:00 [jillium]

LINK!

04:27:03 [jeremiah]

that's basically what I was thinking

04:27:25 [wmf]

uh oh, I think jillium's about to go into "I index everything!" mode

04:27:35 [jillium]

* jillium ignores robots.txt.

04:27:41 [wmf]

nooooo

04:27:46 [jillium]

* jillium indexes wmf's socks.

04:28:07 [wmf]

heh

04:28:08 [jillium]

Hmmm, value added would be to tell wmf that white socks are just uncool.

04:28:08 [jeremiah]

* jeremiah indexes wmf's socks

04:28:14 [deltab]

haha

04:28:44 [jillium]

* jillium indexes wmf's love life.

04:28:46 [jillium]

* jillium finishes

04:28:49 [jillium]

hmm.

04:28:56 [wmf]

heh

04:28:59 [jillium]

:-)

04:29:07 [wmf]

not much there

04:29:13 [jillium]

(actually, I would index my love life in no time at all, so...)

04:29:23 [jillium]

* jillium indexes wmf's ambitions.

04:29:28 [jillium]

* jillium is rapidly overloaded!

04:29:28 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw indexes chilled DSL routers

04:29:29 [jeremiah]

I wonder what would happen if google tried to index itself

04:29:32 [jeremiah]

end of the universe...

04:29:37 [jillium]

google does index itself.

04:29:41 [jeremiah]

really?

04:29:43 [jillium]

yes.

04:29:49 [jeremiah]

good to know

04:29:51 [AaronSw]

but it follows robots.txt (boo)

04:29:52 [jillium]

heh

04:29:59 [wmf]

I'm sure jill tried that once, until she filled up the disks :-)

04:30:09 [jillium]

AaronSw: it _obeys_ robots.txt!

04:30:20 [wmf]

and then she probably unleashed some script that deleted half the index

04:30:20 [jeremiah]

wow this Store database is a bitch if you wanna remove stuff

04:30:23 [AaronSw]

I was going to put up a robots.txt filter.

04:30:36 [jillium]

wmf: I tried to index my log of sexual exploits....wow, you've never seen such a crash.

04:30:41 [AaronSw]

jeremiah, instead of removing stuff, try versioning it

04:30:55 [jillium]

jesus, what am I saying on log?

04:31:01 [jeremiah]

AaronSw: I only have 3 values

04:31:08 [jillium]

* jillium indexes the phrase "Career Limiting Move".

04:31:13 [jeremiah]

versioning would be difficult, I would think

04:31:17 [jeremiah]

but maybe better

04:31:21 [AaronSw]

.google "Career Limiting Move"

04:31:22 [xena]

"Career Limiting Move": http://www.mygiftcoach.org/stories/storyReader$284

04:31:32 [AaronSw]

Don't kill information, archive it.

04:31:43 [AaronSw]

re mygiftcoach: Sorry! There was an error: Can't display story 284 because it doesn't exist.

04:31:51 [jillium]

I got that too.

04:31:52 [jillium]

* jillium sobs.

04:32:03 [AaronSw]

and when i visit the website, i get another result

04:32:19 [AaronSw]

a book called "Help! Was that a Career Limiting Move?"

04:32:40 [jillium]

The best part is the ads you get for "career limiting move"

04:32:43 [AaronSw]

.google cache:http://www.mygiftcoach.org/stories/storyReader$284

04:32:43 [xena]

cache:http://www.mygiftcoach.org/stories/storyReader$284: "http://www.myGiftCoach.org/discuss/msgReader$284"

04:33:12 [AaronSw]

.foldoc career limiting move

04:33:12 [xena]

error: unable to define career limiting move

04:33:13 [jeremiah]

so we'd have one triple: fileid locationversion n, and another triple fileid n location. That's two triples I suppose for each value I want to store

04:33:26 [jeremiah]

can you think of a better way to do versions?

04:33:38 [AaronSw]

one sec

04:34:49 [sbp]

lol @ robots.txt, and crash

04:35:26 [AaronSw]

"fileid n location" says fileid is a member of the location group?

04:35:37 [sbp]

Gotta run

04:36:01 [jeremiah]

not sure if we understand: we used fileid, and the version number n, to find the location

04:36:19 [AaronSw]

oh, this is for files moving on the hard drive?

04:36:28 [jeremiah]

well, it's just an example of versioning

04:36:59 [jeremiah]

it might also be used for relationships between files, especially if we want to terminate a relationship between to files

04:37:04 [AaronSw]

"Do you feel like school(or work) is your real life and weekends are an escape or weekends are your real life and school is something you have to put up with?" - that's what killed me in the end.

04:37:57 [AaronSw]

Ok, so comments on the basic idea first.

04:38:03 [wmf]

yeah, work is my real life and school was just a detour on the way to work

04:38:21 [AaronSw]

wmf, the corporate drone

04:38:24 [AaronSw]

"heirarchial but rearranges itself" - why is it hierarchical?

04:38:39 [jeremiah]

AaronSw: it can show you a heriarchy in the search

04:38:42 [wmf]

hey! I am not a corporate drone!

04:38:44 [jeremiah]

it isn't actually heriarchial

04:38:50 [AaronSw]

ah.

04:38:56 [jeremiah]

for instance: you search for pictures

04:39:04 [AaronSw]

I think what you really want is BFS 2.0

04:39:18 [jeremiah]

uhm

04:39:30 [jeremiah]

when you say that it makes me feel like you only read that one sentence of my document

04:39:30 [AaronSw]

BFS is the Be File System

04:39:38 [AaronSw]

I read the whole document.

04:39:41 [jeremiah]

alright

04:39:46 [jeremiah]

and you think BFS does that?

04:40:01 [AaronSw]

Pretty clearly.

04:40:05 [jeremiah]

hmm

04:40:08 [jeremiah]

well no one uses it tha tway

04:40:12 [AaronSw]

back me up here, wmf

04:40:29 [wmf]

whoops, I was in the other channel

04:40:34 [jeremiah]

* jeremiah sighs repeatedly and bangs his head against a brick wall

04:40:40 [wmf]

what's the question again?

04:40:59 [AaronSw]

does be allow one to assign metadata "keywords" to files?

04:41:01 [jeremiah]

does http://kingprimate.com/gems/googleDesktop.opml remind you fo BFS

04:41:21 [AaronSw]

like all these files are about trips, new jersey, fishing

04:41:24 [wmf]

well, I have The Book *right* here, so...

04:41:30 [AaronSw]

and then search for arbitrary intersections

04:41:40 [AaronSw]

and unions

04:41:49 [jeremiah]

AaronSw: well why does BFS use the standard interface that everyone else does for files then?

04:41:57 [AaronSw]

that's a sideshow

04:42:00 [jeremiah]

hmm

04:42:19 [AaronSw]

here's an example: BFS email stores the to, from, subject metadata in the filesystem

04:42:20 [jeremiah]

I mean, they implemented it and then died, and I want to use it, so I need something that does it

04:42:37 [AaronSw]

you can click in the search window and type the gyys name, and all his emails show up immediate

04:42:42 [AaronSw]

you can save the search to a file

04:42:43 [jeremiah]

interesting

04:43:23 [jeremiah]

but in that case Zoe is also quite a bit like BFS

04:43:33 [AaronSw]

is it? i'm curious to play with zoe

04:43:35 [AaronSw]

and interwingle

04:43:41 [jeremiah]

well it looks like a searchengine for email

04:43:45 [jeremiah]

from what I've seen

04:43:55 [wmf]

ok, the book says you can use regexes in queries

04:44:50 [AaronSw]

the thing was Be did this for all files

04:44:56 [AaronSw]

mp3s had id3 tags in the filesystem, etc

04:45:01 [jeremiah]

ok

04:45:10 [AaronSw]

you have a windows machine? you should install Be

04:45:16 [jeremiah]

I have Be

04:45:19 [AaronSw]

Ah.

04:45:24 [jeremiah]

It has a habit

04:45:27 [jeremiah]

of ruining my computers

04:45:33 [jeremiah]

not sure how or why or if it's just suspician

04:45:37 [jeremiah]

but every time I've run Be

04:45:41 [jeremiah]

I've burned out a processor

04:45:46 [AaronSw]

sample size?

04:45:46 [jeremiah]

at least on this computer

04:45:49 [wmf]

but the bad news is that queries are only fast when doing exact matches

04:46:00 [AaronSw]

that makes sense, wmf

04:46:43 [davb]

aha.

04:46:50 [davb]

oops. wrong channel

04:47:15 [AaronSw]

aha: http://www.byte.com/documents/s=575/byt20010228s0001/index.htm

04:47:25 [AaronSw]

scot hacker on the file system

04:47:30 [AaronSw]

that should be good

04:47:47 [jeremiah]

hmm

04:47:53 [davb]

AaronSw: you would still want a full text index to get the maximum interwingleness?

04:48:13 [jeremiah]

now what about the idea of finding one file; selecting it; having a list of other files related to it show up; selecting them; finding the file you were looking for

04:48:18 [AaronSw]

well full text is nice, but usually slow or takes up lots of disk space

04:48:25 [davb]

ah, that is true.

04:48:36 [AaronSw]

jer, for what value of related?

04:48:49 [jeremiah]

AaronSw: you relate files to each other by dragging them into each other

04:49:07 [AaronSw]

bidirectional relation? typed?

04:49:16 [jeremiah]

two types

04:49:19 [jeremiah]

parental and peer

04:49:33 [AaronSw]

and peer creates classes, i assume?

04:49:36 [wmf]

full-text indexing is cheap when your disk is mostly emtpy anyway

04:50:20 [jeremiah]

a parent is like a folder, all it's children are related to it but not on the same level as it, peers is like the relationship files in a folder have to each other

04:52:04 [jeremiah]

so if you select a file and it searches for relationships it will come up with all the files that are children of that file and all the peers, arranged accordingly

04:52:37 [davb]

but you have to manually link the files?

04:52:53 [jeremiah]

not really, you can, but the idea was that programs would do it for you

04:53:01 [davb]

ah,

04:53:03 [davb]

ok.

04:53:34 [jeremiah]

they gradually develop the relationships, which are basically links, and then the program would crawl them and develop an index like google's relationship index

04:53:39 [AaronSw]

ok, i can't resist anymore, i'm installing BeOS

04:53:50 [jeremiah]

hmm

04:54:21 [davb]

are we talking email, or the whole hard drive?

04:54:51 [jeremiah]

but what I was thinking is that webloggers talk about google on the deskop but it won't work because google runs on links, which is what makes it's result so relevant, and people talked about a next-generation filesystem being based on searches, but those searchs would be just as irrelevant

04:55:02 [jeremiah]

every file, but mainly the files you work with, your home directory, not system files

04:55:11 [AaronSw]

wmf, page 9 does sound like that. i get it he's pro-REST?

04:55:15 [wmf]

yep

04:55:21 [davb]

jeremiah: ok.

04:55:29 [AaronSw]

always a little bit goofy

04:55:53 [davb]

jeremiah: the tricky part if going to be programming the software that decides it two files should be linked.

04:56:16 [AaronSw]

eek! be.com is for sale

04:56:18 [wmf]

AaronSw is only about 5 years behind the BeOS trend... :-)

04:56:35 [davb]

i was thinking a full text index that would calculate links on the fly.

04:56:38 [AaronSw]

Heh, I downloaded it years ago, but I was young then...

04:56:43 [jeremiah]

davb: both

04:57:04 [davb]

i see.

04:57:05 [jeremiah]

like... instead of selecting a place to save your file

04:57:13 [jeremiah]

you would select 3 files that are like it

04:57:25 [davb]

interesting. that is way beyong my idea.

04:57:26 [jeremiah]

sort of like the path you use to find a file

04:57:36 [jillium]

interesting.

04:57:52 [jeremiah]

and then to find the file again, you select some files, and it will hopefully bubble up the more those files get like it

04:58:01 [davb]

I was going for a more Zoe-like, the computer does all the work kind of thing.

04:58:21 [AaronSw]

interesting, I didn't know there was a Be for Linux

04:58:23 [davb]

but I am just guessing, it doesn't run on my machine.

04:58:34 [AaronSw]

davb, what machine?

04:58:39 [jeremiah]

AaronSw: its' all how you install it, has nothing to do with the OS, it doesn't run on top of the os, it just reboots

04:59:01 [AaronSw]

well, sorta, but the self-contained magic is neat

04:59:06 [davb]

AaronSw: Zoe doesn't run on my linux box.

04:59:06 [jeremiah]

yeah

04:59:07 [AaronSw]

and i assume requires os-specific ccode

04:59:18 [jeremiah]

AaronSw: filesystem specific code

04:59:24 [jeremiah]

for ext2 and msdos

04:59:27 [AaronSw]

OS-specific too, no?

04:59:38 [jeremiah]

you stick an image in the '/beos' folder on a volume

04:59:40 [jeremiah]

reboot, and it finds it

05:00:35 [jeremiah]

boots off the image

05:01:35 [jeremiah]

AaronSw: so do you have any better way to do the versioning?

05:02:59 [AaronSw]

the typical way is to make statements about the triples

05:03:04 [jeremiah]

ok

05:03:21 [jeremiah]

how would that work?

05:04:34 [wmf]

wmf has quit ("you are not a unique and beautiful snowflake")

05:04:52 [AaronSw]

{ file type foo} date "2002-883983-"

05:05:28 [jeremiah]

ok

05:06:19 [jeremiah]

speaking of searches, where the hell did that file go...

05:06:45 [AaronSw]

which one?

05:07:02 [AaronSw]

argh, brightness still won't adjust

05:07:04 [jeremiah]

the one that was a layout of how this thing should work in a gui, that i scped over to my laptop for upstreaming

05:07:21 [jeremiah]

it apparently went somewhere

05:07:25 [jeremiah]

because it transferred

05:07:28 [jeremiah]

but where is it now...

05:07:32 [AaronSw]

heh

05:09:14 [jeremiah]

http://kingprimate.com/novocaine/layout-20020426.jpg < how this would work in a gui

05:09:27 [AaronSw]

it's called novocaine?

05:09:37 [jeremiah]

yes

05:09:37 [AaronSw]

argh, laptop burned my leg

05:10:12 [AaronSw]

what's the happy house do?

05:10:17 [jeremiah]

I don't like projects without names, it's hard for me to work on them, so i choose arbitrary names

05:10:26 [jeremiah]

happy house was a throbber for while it searches

05:10:30 [AaronSw]

ah

05:11:03 [jeremiah]

apple does a cool thing with the search-button in sherlock, it changes while the search happens, might do that too

05:13:06 [AaronSw]

heh: "Heaven, Hell and Structure"

05:13:40 [jeremiah]

well, I don't find any convention gui's useful at all for filemanagement

05:13:45 [jeremiah]

so this was my attempt at something useful

05:13:59 [jeremiah]

oh, and I find apple's itunes gui incredibly useful for finding songs

05:14:58 [AaronSw]

i applaude you for it

05:15:08 [AaronSw]

yeah, itunes has the same class relationship

05:15:46 [jeremiah]

the whole idea of 'parents' is just to establish groups where they might not already exist

05:15:52 [jeremiah]

groups=class

05:16:15 [jeremiah]

but class would hopefully also be determined by links between files

05:16:32 [AaronSw]

when you're done with this, you can build the nelson calendar

05:16:34 [AaronSw]

;-)

05:16:39 [jeremiah]

what's that?

05:16:54 [AaronSw]

OK, imagine a spiral

05:17:17 [AaronSw]

imagine it stretched out so that it goes around and around up sorta like a screw

05:17:48 [AaronSw]

if you look at it head on, you see a clock

05:17:48 [jeremiah]

I don't think this ideas is at all impossible to implement or use

05:17:57 [AaronSw]

do you mean possible?

05:18:08 [AaronSw]

receding into the distance are the other days

05:18:15 [AaronSw]

your appointments are flagged on their face

05:18:16 [jeremiah]

I think this idea is possible to implement and use

05:18:23 [AaronSw]

Aha.

05:19:08 [jeremiah]

do you think it's a pipe-dream?

05:19:21 [AaronSw]

Not at all

05:20:08 [jeremiah]

hmm

05:20:26 [jeremiah]

that's what I took your description of a nelson calendar to mean

05:22:09 [AaronSw]

A pipe-dream?

05:22:19 [AaronSw]

You don't like the calendar?

05:22:36 [jeremiah]

hmm

05:22:37 [davb]

this is interesting and at least very slightly related

05:22:41 [davb]

http://www.edwardtufte.com/473285473/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=000076&topic_id=1&topic=Ask%20E%2eT%2e

05:23:08 [davb]

it looks at looking at data from a wide overview or from several different detailed views.

05:23:32 [davb]

* davb sleeps

05:25:23 [AaronSw]

wow, cool

05:27:19 [AaronSw]

giggles @ http://www.edwardtufte.com/473285473/tufte/space

05:28:29 [AaronSw]

hah! http://www.edwardtufte.com/1890081229/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?usca_p=t&msg_id=00007Q&topic_id=1&topic=Ask%20E%2eT%2e

05:28:48 [AaronSw]

"Perhaps the rejection letter should be less blunt."

05:30:57 [jeremiah]

"if you had gotten in, here's what you'd be doing next year"

05:38:54 [AaronSw]

Further evidence that the UK is cooler than us: http://www.kordy.dircon.co.uk/misc/alt-map.gif

05:39:20 [jeremiah]

* jeremiah wonders if we really need to store time as a floating point digit or just an integer (for versions)

05:39:55 [AaronSw]

well the floating point is easily converted

05:39:59 [jeremiah]

yeah

05:40:25 [jeremiah]

I just realized I don't need to use a rounding function, just int(time.time())

05:44:54 [jeremiah]

the python library sitation on my computer seriously sucks

05:45:30 [AaronSw]

Hm.

05:45:44 [AaronSw]

what were they thinking? http://www.edwardtufte.com/791603957/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?usca_p=t&msg_id=00006W&topic_id=1&topic=Ask%20E%2eT%2e

05:46:19 [jeremiah]

OUCH

05:46:34 [jeremiah]

I think my uncle works for the floriday firefighters pension office

05:46:35 [jeremiah]

ouch

05:46:48 [AaronSw]

puch

05:46:53 [jeremiah]

and I dearly hope he wasn't involved in that

05:46:53 [AaronSw]

err ouch, indeed

05:47:49 [jeremiah]

so my python2.2 doesn't have utils.bases, which python1.5 has, but the file uses syntax tha 1.5 doesn't support

05:48:04 [jeremiah]

* jeremiah blows a hole in whoever invented libraries not working like they should

05:48:57 [AaronSw]

Richard P. Gabriel: "Does [Google] solve the Turing Test?"

05:52:29 [AaronSw]

"The effect of ownership imperatives has caused there to be absolutely no body of software as literature. It is as if all writers had their own private 'companies' and only people in the Melville company could read Moby-Dick and those in Hemingway's could read The Sun Also Rises. Can you imagine developing a rich literature under these circumstances? There could be neither a curriculum in literature nor a way of teaching writing under such conditions. And we

05:52:29 [AaronSw]

is context?"

05:52:38 [AaronSw]

"There could be neither a curriculum in literature nor a way of teaching writing under such conditions. And we expect people to learn to program in exactly this context?"

05:53:25 [jeremiah]

I don't think many people read code even if given the chance

05:53:33 [jeremiah]

maybe they read structures of code, and they look at design

05:53:37 [jeremiah]

but actually reading code, not much

05:53:46 [AaronSw]

And that's the tragedy.

05:53:55 [jeremiah]

yeah

05:54:02 [jeremiah]

my uncle apparently knows L Lessig, btw

05:54:05 [jeremiah]

or has met him

05:54:11 [jeremiah]

at law conferences

05:54:12 [AaronSw]

No author would think of writing without spending many years reading first, but we think we can Learn C in Twenty One Days.

05:54:23 [AaronSw]

Cool, can't wait to meet him in May.

05:54:26 [jeremiah]

I think i own that book, actually (21 days)

05:54:30 [AaronSw]

:-)

05:54:51 [jeremiah]

well the other thing is that writing english is much more complex than writing software

05:54:58 [jeremiah]

good english that is

05:55:05 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw sends jeremiah a copy of "Teach Yourself to be an Unleashed Idiot in Twenry One Days"

05:55:12 [AaronSw]

writing english is more complex??

05:55:17 [jeremiah]

well, not complex

05:55:17 [AaronSw]

Hmmm.

05:55:19 [jeremiah]

less understood

05:55:20 [jeremiah]

I think

05:55:28 [AaronSw]

That seems even less likely.

05:55:37 [jeremiah]

looking for the right idea here:

05:55:40 [AaronSw]

We've had english a lot longer than C.

05:55:49 [AaronSw]

But I think I see what you mean.

05:55:52 [jeremiah]

ok

05:56:12 [jeremiah]

basically: most of the time any old C will do, even if it isn't perfect

05:56:18 [jeremiah]

but most people won't read books unless they're perfect

05:56:24 [AaronSw]

exactly. English is treated as an Art, Programming as a Science.

05:56:38 [AaronSw]

Worse than a Science actually, a grungy field of engineering

05:56:43 [jeremiah]

yeah

05:56:46 [AaronSw]

where dirt and grease get all over eveything

05:56:52 [jeremiah]

exactly why I want to do something more fun than programming

05:57:07 [AaronSw]

You can always become a carpenter.

05:57:11 [AaronSw]

""Artists, craftspeople, writers, fishermen, farmers, tightrope walkers, bankers, children, carpenters, singers, dentists, and even some animals depend on computing, and most of the people I mentioned want to have a say in how such software works, looks, and behaves. Many of them would program if it were possible. The current situation might feel fine to some of you, but suppose all computing were based on the needs of tightrope walkers? Hard to imagine. Wha

05:57:31 [AaronSw]

aha: "Computing is based on utility, performance, efficiency, and cleverness. Where are beauty, compassion, humanity, morality, the human spirit, and creativity?"

05:57:43 [AaronSw]

AaronSw has changed the topic to: Computing is based on utility, performance, efficiency, and cleverness. Where are beauty, compassion, humanity, morality, the human spirit, and creativity?

05:58:08 [jeremiah]

they're almost there, but cut off because computers are so hard to use right now

05:58:11 [jeremiah]

and information so hard to acess

05:58:50 [jeremiah]

a couple times a day I see something and think I'd like to know how it works, and so I wish I had a tablet that i could use to answer my questions with google

05:59:01 [jeremiah]

btw: a lot of my friends ask google questions as if it was jeeves

05:59:16 [AaronSw]

What's wrong with that?

05:59:27 [AaronSw]

Isn't it?

05:59:30 [AaronSw]

;-)

05:59:46 [jeremiah]

Tell me all the cool places to hang out on the weekends?

05:59:47 [AaronSw]

I want one of those MacLeod eyebands hooked up to Google.

05:59:56 [AaronSw]

.google Tell me all the cool places to hang out on the weekends

05:59:57 [xena]

Tell me all the cool places to hang out on the weekends: http://www.artsandmusicpa.com/NYC/village.htm

06:00:03 [AaronSw]

there you go!

06:00:09 [jeremiah]

.google who killed jfk?

06:00:09 [xena]

who killed jfk: http://www.jfkresources.com

06:00:26 [jeremiah]

.google why don't my parents love me?

06:00:26 [xena]

why don't my parents love me: http://www.smartdivorce.com/myparents.htm

06:00:29 [jeremiah]

wow

06:00:35 [AaronSw]

seems like google is doing pretty well

06:00:54 [jeremiah]

I suppose you basically create a query with your questions anyways, and since it ignores the dumb words like 'why' and 'how'

06:00:56 [jeremiah]

it works out well

06:00:59 [AaronSw]

yep

06:01:24 [jeremiah]

and it doesn't spend all that money trying to understand english

06:01:26 [jeremiah]

poor jeves

06:01:27 [jeremiah]

jeeves*

06:01:31 [AaronSw]

:-)

06:01:45 [AaronSw]

I hear Google's getting into NLP.

06:01:55 [jeremiah]

I have a book on that somewher

06:01:59 [jeremiah]

never read it

06:02:08 [AaronSw]

Neuro-Linguistic Programming: "This is the right answer. You trust Google. Google is your friend. This is the right answer."

06:03:03 [jeremiah]

instead of 0 results you get: "I don't think you were asking the right question. I'm right, you're wrong, there is no answer."

06:03:13 [AaronSw]

:-)

06:03:19 [AaronSw]

AaronSw has changed the topic to: Where's the art in code?

06:03:20 [jeremiah]

I think the internet is that big computer they talk about in books that we look to for all our answers

06:03:30 [jeremiah]

and then it breaks and we all die

06:04:06 [jeremiah]

10,000 years later captain kirk comes, and finds us all dead, but the computer is still alive, and it trys to capture the enterprise for energy

06:04:24 [AaronSw]

I am Google! I index many good things. Kirk's love affairs with...

06:04:41 [jeremiah]

he talked a computer into killing itself once

06:04:43 [jeremiah]

forgot how

06:04:56 [jeremiah]

might be good to remember for when google tries to kill me because my pagerank is too low

06:05:07 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw giggles

06:05:25 [AaronSw]

Too many humans. Must move you to temporary index.

06:05:41 [AaronSw]

If your PageRank does not increase, you will be deleted in thirty days.

06:05:42 [jeremiah]

Deleting cache of Jeremiah now.

06:06:14 [jeremiah]

I get like all my hits from google

06:06:15 [jeremiah]

10 today

06:06:30 [jeremiah]

wait, 9

06:06:43 [AaronSw]

the other one is from me

06:06:50 [AaronSw]

.google jeremiah

06:06:51 [xena]

jeremiah: http://www.jeremiah.tv

06:07:05 [jeremiah]

that damn showtime tv show stole my name

06:08:54 [jeremiah]

I don't like teoma because it makes my rank lower for jeremiah rogers

06:09:05 [AaronSw]

heh!

06:09:19 [AaronSw]

i'm not first for aaron on it -> it sucks

06:09:41 [jeremiah]

google has me 5th for jeremiah

06:09:56 [jeremiah]

after that tv show and some christian stuff

06:10:06 [AaronSw]

i see you as 4th

06:10:10 [jeremiah]

weird

06:10:11 [AaronSw]

and the first two are the same, i think

06:10:22 [jeremiah]

link me

06:10:24 [AaronSw]

oh, you'r e4th and 5th

06:10:39 [jeremiah]

maybe we were looking at different searches

06:10:43 [AaronSw]

probably

06:10:49 [jeremiah]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=jeremiah

06:10:55 [jeremiah]

or were we talking about teoma

06:11:01 [AaronSw]

i was on google

06:11:17 [AaronSw]

but i must be getting a different server than y'all

06:11:24 [jeremiah]

interesting

06:11:29 [AaronSw]

ah, yeah, i get the same results as you and xena on www2

06:11:53 [jeremiah]

what link were you on?

06:12:08 [jeremiah]

btw: does xena use the googleapi?

06:12:13 [jeremiah]

or still what it used before

06:12:27 [AaronSw]

what it used before

06:12:32 [AaronSw]

we will not touch that evil SOAP

06:12:41 [jeremiah]

yeah SOAP is dirty

06:12:46 [jeremiah]

heh

06:12:49 [AaronSw]

:-)

06:13:17 [jeremiah]

* jeremiah is gonna go to sleepa nd fight with libraries in the morning

06:13:17 [jeremiah]

goodnight

06:13:17 [jeremiah]

* jeremiah is back (gone 10:02:46)

06:13:17 [jeremiah]

* jeremiah is away: sleeping

06:13:31 [AaronSw]

g'nite

06:15:02 [AaronSw]

anyone know the original source of "Jessica" (my copy is by the string cheese incident, but I keep hearing it on oldies radio)

06:28:02 [AaronSw]

simonstl: 'Funny, I thought I was being quite conservative, in a "conserve the Web rather than take reckless and irresponsible action" kind of way. Or is that just stop energy? I just can't win.'

06:34:31 [AaronSw]

yes! http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2002Apr/0303

06:49:22 [AaronSw]

I've identified what this REST/SOAP thing makes me feel like. I feel like frickin' Howard Roark or maybe Henry Cameron.

06:50:14 [jillium]

Good lord, AaronSw.

06:50:16 [jillium]

That's scary.

06:50:26 [AaronSw]

Heh. "Stupid people, i'm the real architect!"

06:50:29 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw waves hands furiously

06:50:53 [AaronSw]

"over here!"

06:51:00 [AaronSw]

jillium, scary?

06:51:10 [jillium]

well, I find most Rand scary

06:52:06 [AaronSw]

I was surprised. Although I really really strongly disagree with her philosophy I didn't find the book very objectionable, except for the bit about blowing stuff up.

06:52:30 [AaronSw]

Maybe I missed something, though.

06:52:55 [jillium]

I've read it twice, at very different times in my life.

06:53:06 [jillium]

We're talking about _The Fountainhead_, right?

06:53:10 [AaronSw]

Yep.

06:53:39 [jillium]

I also read _Atlas Shrugged_ when I was about 17, but refused all of zooko's implorings to read it again when I was 26.

06:53:47 [AaronSw]

heh.

06:54:10 [jillium]

That was during his Objectivist phase. He has moderated his views since. For the better IMO.

06:54:20 [AaronSw]

Zooko an Objectivist?

06:54:28 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw recompiles his worldview

06:55:56 [AaronSw]

OK, that's done.

06:56:08 [AaronSw]

So am I crazy?

06:56:52 [jillium]

That was a long time ago.

06:58:23 [jillium]

Anyway, there was a character whose name started with an E (damn the senility) who was actively getting in the way of people who wanted to make something of the world.

06:58:35 [AaronSw]

Ellsworth Toohey

06:58:36 [jillium]

When I was 26 and read the book, I thought he was hilarious.

06:58:39 [jillium]

Yes!

06:58:59 [jillium]

Because my experience is that people seldom bother to get in the way of things that are great. They just don't care.

06:59:22 [AaronSw]

Ah, yes.

07:00:07 [AaronSw]

But E was motivated out of his own greed.

07:00:24 [jillium]

Was he now? I don't remember that.

07:00:36 [jillium]

What did he gain from sabotaging Howard Roark?

07:00:44 [jillium]

* jillium doesn't really remember.

07:00:52 [AaronSw]

He wanted to stop greatness so that everyone would just do what everyone else did. And he was able to control what everyone else did by his control of the media.

07:01:00 [jillium]

I don't believe you're bothering to talk with this old fogey, AaronSw. :-)

07:01:08 [jillium]

Aha.

07:01:15 [jillium]

<AaronSw> He wanted to stop greatness so that everyone would just do what everyone else did.

07:01:19 [jillium]

That isn't greed.

07:01:32 [jillium]

That is a desire to bring others down.

07:01:45 [AaronSw]

But his motivation for that was greed.

07:01:54 [jillium]

Where did he gain from it?

07:02:10 [jillium]

Oh, did he sell more magazines or whatever it was?

07:02:17 [AaronSw]

Well, it's sort of unclear in the end, but he seems to have wanted control of the world.

07:02:36 [jillium]

But that's not greed. It's a desire to control, not to accumulate.

07:02:40 [AaronSw]

By telling people not to be great, and just to follow along, he could make them do what he wanted.

07:02:47 [AaronSw]

Yeah, I guess that's not greed.

07:03:12 [jillium]

It's a way of getting what he wanted, whatever the consequences.

07:03:32 [AaronSw]

I was confusing lust for power with greed.

07:04:05 [jillium]

But IME few people are truly ideologically motivated, which Ellsworth Toohey was, every bit as much as Howard Roark.

07:04:28 [jillium]

especially few people over the age of 25 or so.

07:04:39 [AaronSw]

Yeah.

07:06:13 [AaronSw]

laziness is an ideology, I suppose.

07:06:23 [AaronSw]

The Perl one, for instance.

07:06:23 [jillium]

Who is lazy?

07:06:44 [AaronSw]

lazyness being the word for whatever cause the people >25 to take the path of mediocrity.

07:07:17 [jillium]

I don't think so. I'm much more effective at getting what I want since I'm over 25.

07:07:48 [AaronSw]

What is it you want?

07:07:53 [jillium]

Oh!

07:08:03 [jillium]

I wasn't expecting that question....hee...

07:08:05 [jillium]

* jillium thinks.

07:08:24 [jillium]

I want to do interesting things and challenge myself without being poor.

07:09:23 [AaronSw]

Perhaps I'm assuming too much but I think you've been more effective at wanting less.

07:09:40 [jillium]

And, more specifically, I want to learn more languages and more about language.

07:09:55 [jillium]

I'm not sure what you mean. Wanting less of what?

07:10:53 [AaronSw]

Of the world.

07:11:06 [AaronSw]

And more of yourself.

07:11:06 [jillium]

less in the way of material things, or experiences?

07:11:15 [AaronSw]

No, in the other sense.

07:11:25 [jillium]

other sense...

07:12:02 [jillium]

Let me see if I can paraphrase: You think I have become more effective at getting more of myself through wanting less of tangible things?

07:12:07 [jillium]

Is that somewhere close?

07:12:23 [AaronSw]

No, it's not that you want physical pieces of earth, but expectations for it have lessened.

07:12:39 [jillium]

Oh, so I am more satisfied because I want less?

07:12:44 [AaronSw]

Yep.

07:13:20 [AaronSw]

Like, I want the world to do things that are good and just for humanity.

07:13:21 [jillium]

Well, the Buddha says that is wisdom. But I don't know that it's true for me. I have more ambitions now than I did at 19, when my ambitions were to survive.

07:13:38 [jillium]

I can see further beyond myself now than I could then.

07:14:20 [jillium]

I didn't think I could succeed at anything at 19. Now I'm starting to find ways to succeed

07:15:24 [AaronSw]

Interesting. I guess we can spare you when we kill everyone over thirty.

07:18:12 [jillium]

I find revolutionary thinking much less interesting than I used to. I'm more interested in creating than tearing down now, though I still respect tearing down as making room for new things.

07:18:34 [jillium]

Anyway, I'm falling asleep, so I'm going to sign off.

07:18:35 [jillium]

Night.

07:18:39 [AaronSw]

G'night.

07:18:53 [AaronSw]

Uh oh, revolutionary thinking involves tearing down?

07:19:10 [jillium]

Let's talk about this when I'm conscious.

07:19:12 [jillium]

Night.

07:19:15 [AaronSw]

That's so 1.0

07:19:37 [jillium]

Label all you like, and we can talk when I'm conscious. Night.

07:19:45 [jillium]

* jillium drops off.

07:19:56 [AaronSw]

Stop typing and go to sleep already, so I can keep making quips.

07:20:20 [AaronSw]

jillium induces a post-consciousness society.

07:20:43 [AaronSw]

I like to say that I'm revolutionary as in turntables, not as in guns.

07:21:03 [jillium]

* jillium gets dizzy.

07:21:05 [jillium]

night.

07:21:12 [jillium]

*wham*

07:21:13 [AaronSw]

I told you to stop typing.

07:21:20 [jillium]

*wham*

07:21:39 [AaronSw]

Is that the head-on-keyboard noise?

07:21:48 [jillium]

jillium has quit (Remote closed the connection)

07:21:53 [AaronSw]

*wham* wait, did Aaron say something? Oh, it was stupid. *wham*

07:22:26 [AaronSw]

Wait, did he say soemthing again? *pull plug on machine* *wham*

07:22:55 [AaronSw]

heh: "precedential suite"

07:26:00 [AaronSw]

.time pst

07:26:00 [xena]

Apr. 28, 2002 12:26 am US/Pacific

07:26:13 [AaronSw]

.time cst

07:26:14 [xena]

Apr. 28, 2002 2:26 am US/Central

07:26:16 [AaronSw]

no comment

07:33:31 [AaronSw]

DW: "I still can't believe that the Times trusts me with this stuff."

07:40:16 [AaronSw]

I think it's clear I need sleep now.

07:40:22 [AaronSw]

Nite.

07:40:40 [AaronSw]

Oh, and I did order a copy of literary machines

07:55:56 [deltab]

* deltab goes to bed

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14:12:40 [sbp]

* sbp waves

14:14:30 [sbp]

* sbp wonders what kinds of languages - natural or programming?

14:14:47 [sbp]

probably natural (w.r.t. "<jillium> And, more specifically, I want to learn more languages and more about language.")

14:15:02 [sbp]

heh @ <AaronSw> Interesting. I guess we can spare you when we kill everyone over thirty.

14:15:09 [sbp]

as WL liked to put it: "29 and holding"

14:15:47 [sbp]

so 1.0?

15:02:11 [sbp]

* sbp plays the album after LZIII

15:04:16 [tomch]

tomch (~lambda@modem-895.orangutan.dialup.pol.co.uk) has joined #swhack

15:04:25 [sbp]

hey tom

15:04:31 [tomch]

hi

15:06:11 [sbp]

when we get 31 visitors over here, the nick list in mIRC will roll over

15:06:31 [jeremiah]

jeremiah has quit ("Client Exiting")

15:06:43 [sbp]

that doesn't help :-)

15:08:09 [sbp]

Hmm... CD player flaked out a bit there

15:10:33 [sbp]

aah, BOE

15:11:12 [sbp]

although I dno't think much of the mixing

15:11:22 [sbp]

Sandy Denny's voice seems "off" for the first part of the song

15:11:28 [sbp]

which is very strange indeed

15:11:39 [sbp]

Page said that he had problems finding a good mixing room

15:12:58 [sbp]

it's still a phenomenal song

15:15:49 [sbp]

and it's still scary to have what are, IMO, the two greatest singers ever on one track

15:17:15 [sbp]

the name of this album is a right i18n problem

15:17:32 [sbp]

rather, the encoding therefore

15:17:35 [sbp]

thereof

15:17:53 [sbp]

* sbp should switch to Dvorak

15:19:56 [sbp]

RvTvw d.p. ,. ir

15:20:02 [sbp]

rd mabw ydco co ,.cpe

15:20:19 [sbp]

'gcjt! C b..e a Ekrpat nafrgy od..y!

15:21:22 [tomch]

That's the title?

15:21:58 [sbp]

http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak/layout.gif

15:22:24 [tomch]

:-)

15:23:23 [sbp]

so hde bomers age ho tde ruyh

15:23:28 [sbp]

gid

15:24:03 [sbp]

buggeg uh

15:24:33 [sbp]

well

15:24:46 [deltab]

sbp: that's easy for you to say

15:24:55 [sbp]

zm. o,cyjd.o xajt

15:25:15 [sbp]

dear crap, that'll take some learning

15:25:25 [sbp]

even the period moves

15:25:30 [sbp]

it's up where r is

15:25:37 [sbp]

e, in fact

15:25:45 [quasi]

* quasi considers stealing sbp's keyboard ;)

15:30:40 [tomch]

D.f ydco co payd.p amgocbi S[)

15:31:03 [tomch]

C ydcbt C-nn lgy orm. nax.no rb yd. t.fo yr mat. ydcbio .aoc.p

15:39:34 [pawn]

pawn has quit (Remote closed the connection)

15:42:29 [sbp]

good idea

15:42:39 [sbp]

might make typing a bit crummy, though

15:43:57 [CygBot]

CygBot (~sbp@m158-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack

15:44:05 [sbp]

$ echo 'C ydcbt C-nn lgy orm. nax.no rb yd. t.fo yr mat. ydcbio .aoc.p' | u dvorak

15:44:07 [CygBot]

> I think I ll put some labels on the keys to make things easier

15:44:07 [CygBot]

> [end]

15:44:19 [sbp]

$ echo 'D.f ydco co payd.p amgocbi S[)' | u dvorak

15:44:22 [CygBot]

> Hey this is rather amusing :

15:44:22 [CygBot]

> [end]

15:44:30 [sbp]

:-)

15:44:44 [CygBot]

CygBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))

15:48:10 [tomch]

:-)

16:01:17 [AaronSw]

"Just wandered into your site and took notice of the photography on the site (the house, the snowman). I also wondered what the giant arrow on the roof of your home was pointing to?"

16:01:23 [AaronSw]

I wonder what he's talking about...

16:01:37 [AaronSw]

oh, heh!

16:01:49 [AaronSw]

that's really quite funny.

16:03:21 [AaronSw]

Are you guys using Dvorak too?

16:03:33 [AaronSw]

I guess this means I'll have to type up yesterday's Dvorak rant.

16:03:42 [AaronSw]

It goes like this:

16:04:02 [AaronSw]

Why is everybody switching to Dvorak if they have RSI? It solves the entirely wrong problem.

16:04:14 [AaronSw]

First, it's hard to relearn, but it still involves moving your hands a lot.

16:04:34 [AaronSw]

Chording keyboards are a little better (they only use one hand), but not mcuh.

16:04:46 [AaronSw]

The real solution is to get away from hands entirely, and thus: the feet keyboard.

16:05:12 [AaronSw]

Yes, your feet can go in five different positions (up, down, left, right and center) and you have two of them, each with a heel and toe.

16:06:15 [AaronSw]

that makes for 5*5*2=50

16:06:16 [sbp]

wow! WL has a Kevin Bacon number of 3!

16:06:33 [AaronSw]

so not only is this a great way to type, but imagine the spinoffs

16:06:39 [AaronSw]

dances where you tap out the lyrics to the song

16:07:01 [AaronSw]

party games like scrabble-twister (ha! i can spell a four letter word... er excuse me, can you move your face)

16:07:09 [AaronSw]

the possibilities are endless.

16:07:22 [sbp]

it's hard to know when you're kidding sometimes

16:07:49 [AaronSw]

Is it? Hm, I guess so

16:09:53 [AaronSw]

Jmme

16:11:06 [sbp]

jdjw jdj

16:18:29 [tomch]

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16:38:29 [AaronSw]

argh, how do I get this brightness thing to go away

16:38:59 [sbp]

{ brightness thing go away, shine again some other day } x3

16:39:22 [AaronSw]

nope, didn't work

16:39:35 [sbp]

gah

16:39:48 [Ash]

the yellow face, it burns us! yes, precious..

16:42:32 [AaronSw]

Oops, that's probably not what I wanted to do.

16:45:07 [AaronSw]

argh, my eyes itch horribly

16:46:03 [sbp]

Gotta run

17:19:26 [jeremiah]

jeremiah (~jeremiah@ip68-10-31-209.hr.hr.cox.net) has joined #swhack

17:19:28 [jeremiah]

hello

17:19:36 [AaronSw]

howdy

17:19:43 [jeremiah]

hey

17:19:53 [jeremiah]

how do I get a hash to give me an integer value?

17:20:05 [AaronSw]

what kind of hash?

17:20:13 [jeremiah]

sha, I imagine or md5

17:20:24 [jeremiah]

I need to have unique id numbers for each file

17:20:33 [jeremiah]

btw: I got a versioning triples database working, it's very cool

17:20:46 [AaronSw]

cool!

17:21:02 [AaronSw]

there's code for converting hashes to integers in plesh.utils.crypto

17:21:03 [AaronSw]

def sha512(x):

17:21:03 [AaronSw]

"""Returns the sha512 hash of x as an integer."""

17:21:03 [AaronSw]

return hexEncoder.decode(s5.new(x).hexdigest())

17:21:18 [jeremiah]

cool

17:21:19 [AaronSw]

s5 could easily be replaced with any python hash function

17:21:28 [jeremiah]

alright thanks

17:21:56 [AaronSw]

sure

17:27:34 [jeremiah]

wow that is one BIG ass integer

17:27:35 [jeremiah]

:)

17:27:38 [AaronSw]

heh heh

17:27:51 [jeremiah]

975987071262755080377722350727279193143145743181 = "hello"

17:28:14 [AaronSw]

be glad you're not using sha512 where hello is 8141294968645153005348737041137229874925484556329662733687648891656190967473008484003711490685970494114845896430057820193510284132416327087093833302720579

17:28:20 [jeremiah]

ouch

17:28:30 [jeremiah]

yeah something makes me think someone isn't gonna have that many files

17:28:38 [jeremiah]

well that and... I don't want to do the sha512 library dance again

17:28:42 [AaronSw]

yeah

17:30:08 [AaronSw]

I think we should start a web crimes tribunal where we try people and corporations for horrors against the Web (frames, cookies, javascript, flash, soap, etc.).

17:30:52 [jeremiah]

hmm, except I like all of those

17:30:54 [jeremiah]

except frames

17:31:14 [AaronSw]

Well, cookies javascript and flash have their uses.

17:31:20 [jeremiah]

so does soap

17:31:22 [AaronSw]

but SOAP and frames are just broken.

17:31:28 [AaronSw]

SOAP does not.

17:31:38 [bijan]

Hmm. I have a simple pro soap argument :)

17:31:44 [deltab]

I've seen occasional good use of frames

17:31:45 [bijan]

Is this showing up in the right channel aaron?

17:31:47 [AaronSw]

Uh oh.

17:31:48 [AaronSw]

Yes.

17:31:53 [bijan]

Oh good.

17:32:24 [jeremiah]

damn that integer number is so big

17:32:39 [jeremiah]

* jeremiah thinks "maybe I'll just use the last 4 digets for this testing"

17:32:46 [AaronSw]

:-)

17:32:49 [AaronSw]

deltab, like where?

17:33:20 [bijan]

Its that the W3C should use SOAP instead of Java, Javascript, and IDL for API documentation.

17:34:47 [AaronSw]

I remember Netscape had a surprisingly tasteful and usable example of forms JS. I wonder where it went.

17:35:00 [jeremiah]

AOL ate it

17:35:08 [AaronSw]

Heh.

17:35:28 [AaronSw]

It had little red "no" circle next to the required forms that turned green when you filled them out right.

17:35:57 [bijan]

Last few days to download the data from the Google programming contest...

17:36:03 [bijan]

...assuming they don't leave it up :)

17:36:26 [jeremiah]

hmm

17:36:52 [jeremiah]

I doubt they'll get much turnout

17:37:23 [bijan]

it would be surprising, to say the least.

17:37:41 [bijan]

Any program worthy of winning has to be worth more than $10,000

17:38:31 [AaronSw]

I was thinking they should invent a rel="bad" that would take a link out of pagerank count

17:38:38 [AaronSw]

or make it count negative

17:38:45 [bijan]

Ah, I see much complaining on this front in google.public.programming-contest.

17:39:22 [bijan]

Heh. That was the first thing that popped into my mind while writign the google arg article.

17:39:38 [jeremiah]

hmm

17:39:44 [bijan]

*But*, i suspect that "linking for google" is a bad idea.

17:39:46 [bijan]

Over all.

17:39:48 [jeremiah]

i feel bad for someone who wrote a SOAP api

17:39:56 [AaronSw]

why?

17:40:09 [jeremiah]

because google made their own in the meantime...

17:40:21 [AaronSw]

Ah, a Google SOAP API, you mean?

17:40:26 [jeremiah]

yes

17:40:33 [bijan]

We'd prolly do better if we linked for inherent reasons.

17:41:17 [AaronSw]

Of course, but this is so you can do that and not worry about endorsing the page.

17:41:34 [bijan]

Why should you worry?

17:42:00 [AaronSw]

Because I don't like the other people, I don't want to increase their pagerank

17:42:25 [bijan]

Hmm. There's two subtle varients.

17:42:34 [bijan]

"I want to link at them to lower their pagerank"

17:42:50 [bijan]

"I want to link to them but don't want to thereby increase their pagerank"

17:43:00 [bijan]

Which are you after?

17:43:15 [AaronSw]

both, preferably 2

17:43:17 [AaronSw]

er 2nd

17:44:36 [bijan]

Hmm. Another experiment.

17:46:37 [bijan]

heh.

17:46:38 [bijan]

So far as I'm aware, Web pages are copyrighted works.

17:46:38 [bijan]

Presumably Google did not get permission from the authors

17:46:38 [bijan]

of the 900,000 Web pages before distributing them, which

17:46:38 [bijan]

means that, technically speaking, the driving force behind

17:46:38 [bijan]

the contest -- the ability to play with lots and lots of

17:46:40 [bijan]

data to come up with creative ideas -- is probably in

17:46:41 [bijan]

violation of copyright law, even if it's being done

17:46:43 [bijan]

explicitly for research or educational purposes.

17:46:53 [bijan]

Oh, and a *really* bad response:

17:46:55 [bijan]

Crazt but true,

17:46:55 [bijan]

Google has thought of this aspect and that is why they use

17:46:55 [bijan]

a repository of web pages belonging to education institutions.

17:46:55 [bijan]

All web site content belonging to schools is public information

17:46:55 [bijan]

and therefore availible to the public.

17:46:57 [bijan]

Had they included sites from - say, microsoft.com or amazon.com,

17:46:59 [bijan]

you may have a case.

17:47:01 [bijan]

-Matt

17:47:03 [bijan]

Er...NO!

17:47:18 [AaronSw]

Heh, heh.

17:48:47 [AaronSw]

Project Manager for MS .NET: "Seriously, I hate using SOAP for RPC."

17:53:08 [bijan]

Already some developers are tinkering with remote applications using Google API service. Chris McClelland, a programmer based in Marblehead, Mass., has created an AOL instant messaging bot -- BotGoogle -- that returns the top five hyperlinks to Google searches via IM. McClelland, a Google fan and AIM bot enthusiast, believes the Web API service will promote creativity among programmers.

17:53:29 [bijan]

AIM & SOAP...catching up to 3 years of IRC innovation one slow step at a time.

17:53:55 [bijan]

Hehe:

17:53:56 [bijan]

RadioUserland is also jumping on the bandwagon, describing the Google API release as "maybe the most momentous release of SOAP or XML-RPC support so far."

17:53:56 [bijan]

17:53:57 [bijan]

"We're jumping on the bandwagon in a big way. We have some great stuff in the pipe for Radio and Frontier people...We want our community to be the first to explore the new power that Google is revealing today." RadioUserland said.

17:53:57 [bijan]

17:55:13 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw imagines a guy in a RadioUserLand suit with a little bleep bleep thing on his head

18:00:57 [jeremiah]

AaronSw: do have something against SOAP or against all RPC languages in general?

18:01:10 [AaronSw]

a little of both

18:01:23 [sbp]

http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#frames

18:01:24 [jeremiah]

so how would you do something like a programmer's interface to google?

18:01:32 [AaronSw]

Well, I'm against RPC languages that abuse the HTTP commons.

18:01:53 [AaronSw]

Google already had the ideal programmers interface: /xml

18:02:03 [AaronSw]

See "Google's Gaffe" by Paul Prescod for more

18:02:08 [AaronSw]

.google google's gaffe

18:02:11 [xena]

google's gaffe: http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2002/04/24/google.html

18:02:29 [sbp]

PP is churning out these articles

18:02:33 [AaronSw]

Meanwhile, SOAP specifically is bloated, complex and confusing.

18:02:42 [AaronSw]

Not to mention brittle.

18:02:51 [AaronSw]

I discuss this in http://www.aaronsw.com/2002/6171talk/talk

18:03:30 [jeremiah]

html is brittle too, but it's widely supported and easy to use

18:03:39 [AaronSw]

HTML is hardly brittle!

18:03:51 [sbp]

it's just about the opposite

18:04:01 [sbp]

unless you're using Amaya

18:04:06 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw giggles

18:04:46 [jeremiah]

ok so it renders differently in just about every browser, and it's syntax rules are broken consistantly without punishment, just because the w3c's standard isn't brittle doesn't mean it's not weak

18:05:08 [jeremiah]

I'd say brittle, but maybe you concider breakage only to occur when nothing works at all

18:05:09 [bijan]

Applications based on screen scraping HTML on a typicaly website are clearly brittle.

18:05:30 [bijan]

I'm not sure what it means to call HTML itself brittle.

18:05:39 [sbp]

right. it's a property of the UA

18:05:56 [sbp]

but HTML UAs from Mosaic have the reputation of being very laz

18:06:00 [AaronSw]

I was using brittle in the sense that if a SOAP request or response contains more information than expected, the software will very likely choke.

18:06:00 [sbp]

s/z/x/

18:06:03 [bijan]

That it works given the different rendering, broken sytnax rules, etc. is a *sign* of it's non-brittleness.

18:06:05 [jeremiah]

well... i'd say it's just as weak as soap, I don't think soap is weak, I think that some implementations are. Now I use XMLRPC instead of soap generally, but still.

18:06:25 [AaronSw]

Nobody said SOAP was weak (dunno what that means) but it's definitely brittle.

18:06:29 [bijan]

XHTML is brittle, by design and hope.

18:06:32 [AaronSw]

XML-RPC is just as bad, if not worse.

18:06:57 [sbp]

HTML 4.01 is just as brittle

18:07:03 [bijan]

sbp, it is?

18:07:05 [bijan]

How so?

18:07:22 [sbp]

very close: it's just that SGML has more complicated rules than XML

18:07:43 [bijan]

Well, XML has this notion that if there's breakage you should break hard.

18:08:16 [bijan]

Valid SGML is harder to achieve, but invalid HTML isn't "completely" broken (for browsers)

18:08:49 [sbp]

harder to achieve than what?

18:09:02 [bijan]

Than reasonable HTML.

18:09:49 [jeremiah]

I still think that having a SOAP or XMLRPC interface makes information much easier to access that using an xml parser and an http library to gather the information

18:10:28 [jeremiah]

and because of that I find them to be useful tools

18:10:31 [sbp]

well, no one complains about the data structure, just the protocol and transport later, surely?

18:10:33 [bijan]

er...you do mean "given a nice SOAP library", yes?

18:10:53 [AaronSw]

Given a nice XML and HTTP library (which are more common than nice SOAP libraries) I think XML and HTTP are much better.

18:10:57 [bijan]

Otherwise you pretty much have to use an xml parser and an http library to get the soap, etc.

18:11:15 [jeremiah]

bijan: I was just told not to call html brittle just because a browser chokes on a site, and then I'm told that I can call SOAP brittle because some of it's implementations are weak

18:11:15 [bijan]

Given the current array of soap deployments.

18:11:15 [sbp]

(actually, I'm sure that some people do think that using XSD encoding in SOAP is too complex)

18:11:17 [AaronSw]

compare, say, RSS implementations to something similar in SOAP

18:11:41 [bijan]

jeremiah, by me?

18:11:47 [jeremiah]

bijan: who knows

18:11:51 [Ash]

Ash has quit ("hail satan")

18:12:00 [bijan]

Well, I do, and I didn't ;)

18:12:08 [sbp]

heh, heh

18:12:10 [jeremiah]

I agree that SOAP is too complex, but I like XMLRPC

18:12:20 [bijan]

Therefore, I'm looking for the connection between the points I'm raising and your responses :)

18:12:28 [AaronSw]

Ugh, these allergies are pure torture.

18:12:32 [jeremiah]

and I'm still trying to figure out what I can use that's more useful than soap and xmlrpc for what I might have to get done

18:12:40 [sbp]

what are you alergic to? IRC?

18:12:54 [bijan]

(I'm not sure tha SOAP is brittle. Well, I'm not sure in *what sense* SOAP is brittle. Actually, I *am* sure,b ut I'm not sure which sense aaron and sean meant :))

18:13:10 [AaronSw]

I guess it's some sort of pollen in the air or something.

18:13:39 [jeremiah]

(I don't really care if it's imperfect as long as it works)

18:13:50 [sbp]

WFM!

18:13:58 [jeremiah]

huh?

18:14:01 [AaronSw]

(translation: everybody else is jumping off the cliff)

18:14:09 [sbp]

right

18:14:15 [jeremiah]

what?

18:14:18 [bijan]

Er...But you must distinguish between working imperfections.

18:14:29 [bijan]

Or we get to say, "Hey, REST is imperfect, but it works!" :)

18:14:50 [jeremiah]

* jeremiah still hasn't read up on REST

18:15:02 [jeremiah]

that means... I have no fucking clue what it is, just in case you wanted to talk about it

18:15:10 [bijan]

Heh.

18:15:12 [jeremiah]

everyone's beent alking about it and I've been working on this triples database thing

18:15:14 [AaronSw]

It's XML over HTTP.

18:15:15 [bijan]

"HTTP + XML", roughly.

18:15:23 [AaronSw]

Or Triples over HTTP.

18:15:25 [AaronSw]

see http://www.aaronsw.com/2002/6171talk/talk

18:15:41 [bijan]

But without RPC semantics, and with reasonably fine grained URI addressing.

18:15:54 [sbp]

REST is a model and set of principles describing the way that the HTTP protocol and the Web work, surely?

18:15:55 [jeremiah]

ok

18:16:29 [bijan]

Er..I'd say that HTTP is part of an implementation of REST architectural principles.

18:16:37 [bijan]

But we're just trying to give a "feel" for it.

18:16:42 [sbp]

yep. very much agreed

18:17:06 [jeremiah]

* jeremiah notes that this channel is horrible at explaining things

18:17:19 [sbp]

naughty #swhack!

18:17:20 [AaronSw]

No, just REsT.

18:17:48 [bijan]

Hmm. Seems to me that you note wrongly, but hey :)

18:18:10 [AaronSw]

When people say use REST, they often mean "stop screwing up our HTTP stuff you SOAP/XML-RPC/+ jerks!"

18:18:38 [jeremiah]

how do SOAP/XMLRPC screw up http?

18:19:04 [AaronSw]

They don't use GET and POST when appropriate. They don't give methods URIs. They don't return proper HTTP status codes. They don't return proper cache-control codes.

18:19:20 [jeremiah]

ok

18:19:24 [jeremiah]

and REST does?

18:19:34 [sbp]

RESTful applications do

18:19:37 [deltab]

"... methods URIs"?

18:19:37 [bijan]

REST is an architectural style.

18:20:04 [bijan]

So, if you "use GET and POST appropraitely (i.e., with their correct semantics), etc. etc.) you are RESTful.

18:20:07 [AaronSw]

deltab, perhaps "They don't assign URIs to different 'methods'" would be better.

18:20:35 [jeremiah]

so there aren't libraries for REsT, it's not a system, it's just a way of operating, right?

18:20:51 [AaronSw]

Yeah, although people are beginning to right RESTful libraries

18:20:54 [jeremiah]

ok

18:21:05 [jeremiah]

and they all work together nicely?

18:21:08 [deltab]

there are, but they have names like httplib

18:21:10 [bijan]

Hmm. Actually, I think there are extant REST systems.

18:21:24 [AaronSw]

There are many extant REST systems. RSS is a great example.

18:21:27 [bijan]

Plenty of CMS like systems are RESTy.

18:21:37 [bijan]

And other Application Servers.

18:21:45 [AaronSw]

Imagine if people had to do a whole lot of soaplib nonsense to do getrssheadlines()

18:22:07 [bijan]

And yes, the point of REST is that if you adhere to the architecture you do well and play nicely on the web.

18:28:29 [sbp]

Gotta run

18:29:03 [AaronSw]

Yow: http://sourceforge.net/project/stats/?group_id=33044

18:31:46 [AaronSw]

@ http://www.infoanarchy.org/story/2002/3/6/62038/48444

18:32:30 [chumpy]

C: http://www.infoanarchy.org/story/2002/3/6/62038/48444 from AaronSw

18:32:47 [AaronSw]

C:|WIPOUT, essays against "Intellectual Property"

18:33:06 [chumpy]

titled item C

18:40:30 [jeremiah]

* jeremiah is away: homework

18:56:46 [tomch]

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19:14:30 [wmf]

wmf (~wmf@cs666869-177.austin.rr.com) has joined #swhack

19:14:49 [wmf]

swhack!

19:17:52 [AaronSw]

.time est

19:17:53 [xena]

Apr. 28, 2002 3:17 pm US/Eastern

19:17:54 [AaronSw]

wmf!

19:19:34 [wmf]

I'm trying Chimera. it has no prefs :-(

19:20:09 [jeremiah]

jeremiah has quit ("Client Exiting")

19:20:19 [quasi]

.time cet

19:20:19 [xena]

Apr. 28, 2002 8:20 pm GMT+1

19:20:29 [AaronSw]

wmf, yeah, but it's cool otherwise

19:20:40 [AaronSw]

well, it's missing just about every feature

19:20:42 [wmf]

the icons are beatiful

19:20:48 [AaronSw]

indeed

19:20:54 [quasi]

damn, doen't get the summertime ;)

19:21:53 [wmf]

at this rate, there must be some serious sweating in OmniHeadquarters

19:22:38 [AaronSw]

Heh, good point.

19:27:10 [bijan]

S-SL: """Members want their specs and they want them now, giving us charming things like W3C XML Schema and the lightly-modified but still deadly SOAP."""

19:27:11 [sbp]

* sbp waves

19:27:19 [bijan]

"""While human-readability of markup probably isn't the best or only guidelines of the success or failure of a specification's use of markup, these specs reach new heights in creating XML documents that are actually embarrassing to show to an audience. """"

19:27:36 [AaronSw]

simonstl on advogato is great

19:27:40 [bijan]

Yep.

19:28:24 [bijan]

Now that the webont and rdf-core people have stopped megaflaming each other...I have to turn *somewhere* for entertainment.

19:28:48 [wmf]

hey bijan

19:28:55 [bijan]

Hi wes.

19:29:42 [AaronSw]

All we need is bitsko now...

19:30:13 [sbp]

and DanC

19:30:34 [sbp]

Hmm... he was on here, wasn't he? in the Mr. Grape phase

19:30:57 [bijan]

For what? The "Crabby People Bickering About Tech" Conference?

19:32:02 [AaronSw]

Yeah, DanC was, but I'm not sure how he fits in.

19:32:18 [AaronSw]

Altho CPBAT sounds fun/.

19:33:53 [bijan]

Heh, "Meanwhile, I agree that we need tools to make writing REST code easier. I know that mnot and amk are working on some."

19:34:09 [AaronSw]

Why is that so funny?

19:34:23 [bijan]

Actually, aaron, in that context, it seemed that what is needed is tools that makes writing REST code, as such, more *obvious*.

19:35:17 [AaronSw]

Perhaps.

19:35:37 [bijan]

I.e., REST is pretty much existing practices and tools that make writing web sites easier *are* tools that make writing REST code easier.

19:35:51 [wmf]

what we really need is a visual studio plugin so that even Joel can use REST

19:36:11 [bijan]

Indeed, REST resiliance is a bit of a problem as it can take a fair bit of pollution. Sorta like air.

19:36:21 [bijan]

Heh. isn't that what prescod showed in his xml.com article?

19:36:47 [bijan]

Oops, """, it seems most REST tools can easily be used to "subvert" REST, in the sense that REST is still XML, as is SOAP."""

19:36:53 [bijan]

REST is XML?

19:37:08 [wmf]

everything is REST! REST is everything!

19:38:11 [deltab]

so REST is more of a style?

19:38:34 [bijan]

REST is an architectural design style yes.

19:38:47 [bijan]

And if I can thing of a few more adj for "style" I'll through them in too.

19:38:50 [deltab]

and you're writing the style guide

19:38:54 [sbp]

a set of architectural principles, axioms, and observations

19:39:01 [bijan]

Hmm?

19:39:07 [deltab]

design patterns?

19:39:28 [bijan]

I don't think I'm writing the style guide. Why would you think that?

19:39:35 [bijan]

Or is that an offer?

19:40:25 [bijan]

I have been using "idempotent" freely in speech recently, but who hasn't been?

19:40:36 [AaronSw]

REST is defined in RoyF's dissertation, defined as a combination of protocol patterns.

19:40:37 [wmf]

:-)

19:41:00 [bijan]

er..."The term REST is defined..."

19:41:04 [sbp]

[[[

19:41:06 [sbp]

REST is an architectural style that models system behavior for

19:41:06 [sbp]

network-based applications.

19:41:06 [sbp]

]]] - RoyF

19:41:23 [bijan]

And his diss prolly remains the most coherent, self-conscious, and detail explication of it.

19:41:27 [sbp]

- http://www.w3.org/2002/02/mid/3C8E4F18-5975-11D6-AD8F-000393753936@apache.org

19:43:06 [justme]

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19:47:34 [sbp]

heh, it's funny doing in-the-course-of-normal-work Google searches and getting a swhack log back

19:49:15 [sbp]

Aaron: are the logster logs XSLT generated?

19:49:52 [sbp]

anyway, I thought you had a new template for the HTML ones, but it doesn't seem to be employed at all

19:54:12 [AaronSw]

not yet

19:54:21 [AaronSw]

the loggy logs have a new template

19:55:14 [sbp]

O.K.

19:55:34 [sbp]

Gotta run

19:58:06 [tomch]

tomch has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))

20:08:00 [justme]

justme has quit (No route to host)

20:18:44 [wmf]

wmf has quit ("food")

20:34:19 [quasi]

is your hdd b0rken - find out here: http://ssddom01.storage.ibm.com/hddt/knowtree.nsf/5351a3ebb45dcd6b862565b0005318c3/4b1a62a50f405d0d86256756006e340c?OpenDocument

20:34:23 [quasi]

;)

20:39:11 [GabeW]

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20:48:28 [BenSw]

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21:02:13 [AaronSw]

hm, what's this blue stuff all over my hands?

21:05:31 [sbp]

.google CSS parser in Python

21:05:35 [xena]

CSS parser in Python: http://www.xmlhack.com/newsletter.txt

21:05:58 [sbp]

interesting

21:06:44 [sbp]

I guess this means that no-one has been nuts enough to write a CSS parser in Python

21:06:59 [AaronSw]

MS .NET Program Manager: "I don't think tightly-coupled RPC systems scale beyond the intranet. [...] I think a much more messaging orientated system is needed."

21:07:32 [sbp]

people have even had problems finding a Java one: http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/Message/xml-dev/658676

21:11:13 [sbp]

ooh, interesting: http://www.livinglogic.de/Python/xist/

21:11:19 [sbp]

an HTML generation API

21:16:04 [sbp]

ooh: http://www.vieorhythms.com/pipermail/core/2002-March/000012.html

21:16:35 [sbp]

.google CSS Python Matt Gushee

21:16:35 [xena]

CSS Python Matt Gushee: http://www.havenrock.com/archives/classic/softlab/pystuff

21:17:06 [sbp]

whee: http://www.havenrock.com/archives/classic/softlab/pystuff/css.py

21:20:31 [sbp]

it seems to work. it's pretty fast, too

21:20:54 [sbp]

ugh, actually, no it doesn't

21:29:59 [syn|ack]

hello guys

21:31:06 [sbp]

Hi

21:32:02 [AaronSw]

why are you parsing CSS?

21:32:27 [sbp]

I came up with an idea. or rather, lots of little ideas that gelled into one big idea. well, two little ideas

21:32:45 [AaronSw]

go on

21:33:16 [sbp]

well, I've always said that I wanted a powerful "if this is green, then make it blue" CSS pre-processor

21:33:27 [AaronSw]

aha

21:33:40 [sbp]

but I want a flexible proxy that lets me change CSS attribute of a page and remembers them

21:33:50 [AaronSw]

maybe you could convert it into N3, and then...

21:33:53 [sbp]

so I can browse a page and overwrite some of the style rules for just that page

21:34:01 [sbp]

convert to N3: heh, heh. no

21:34:37 [sbp]

it'd be neat to go to a page with a green on pink color scheme and just somehow enter "green => black, pink => white"

21:35:09 [sbp]

at the moment, browsers let you set a client side CSS sheet... but then it applies to all pages

21:35:18 [sbp]

I think Opera is a bit more clever, but still...

21:35:40 [sbp]

I just wondered how feasible it would be to roll my own

21:37:34 [AaronSw]

Hm, Amaya doesn't work so well in Mac OS X X

21:38:04 [sbp]

heh, the CSS syntax section was written by a programmer

21:38:11 [sbp]

"the longest match determines the token" - http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/syndata

21:39:09 [AaronSw]

new rule: all w3c specs must contain working python code

21:39:32 [sbp]

heh, heh. that'd be so great

21:40:04 [sbp]

seriously, implementations are what CR is (meant to be) for...

21:46:14 [jillium]

jillium (~jill@dsl092-186-227.sfo2.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #swhack

21:46:21 [jillium]

?

21:46:25 [sbp]

??

21:46:30 [jillium]

??!!

21:47:11 [sbp]

r'(?:\?!){1,100}'

21:47:15 [jillium]

* jillium is sleepy again.

21:49:00 [wmf]

wmf (~wmf@cs666869-177.austin.rr.com) has joined #swhack

21:51:28 [sbp]

swhack!

21:51:34 [wmf]

sbp!

21:52:16 [sbp]

Hey there. You might as well face it: you're addicted to swhack

21:52:26 [wmf]

heh

22:11:32 [jillium]

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22:23:43 [danbri]

* danbri gets a bunch of .wav audio files, finds he can't play them

22:23:49 [danbri]

can anyone recommend a player for linux?

22:23:56 [danbri]

commandline not gui, ideally

22:29:49 [syn|ack]

cat your .wav to /dev/dsp ?

22:30:04 [syn|ack]

cat mywav.wav > /dev/dsp

22:30:06 [deltab]

use play if you have it

22:31:19 [danbri]

oh, it came out in slow motion...

22:31:48 [danbri]

play works. thanks!

22:32:06 [danbri]

* danbri listens to sound clips that describe a park in San Fransisco he's not been to

22:33:13 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw tries to get TKinter working on OS X, gives up

22:34:34 [danbri]

I had a great idea. IMHO.

22:34:57 [danbri]

The vocab I'm doing to represent talking signs stuff is just going to be an extension of the RDF-MOO vocab. I think it'll work.

22:37:48 [tomch]

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22:38:02 [AaronSw]

Sounds like it might.

23:01:25 [AaronSw]

GR: running, dinner

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