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It's making me sick. 00:13:47 Users on #swhack: logster +loggy deltab +walloper deus_x oierw redmonk quasi THX-1138 jillzilla +xena sbp syn|ack Ash danbri eikeon +chumpy 00:14:03 Hmm... if IDLE uses Courier New on Windows, home come it can display good Unicode glyphs? 00:14:30 AaronSw (~aaronsw@63.149.73.20) has joined #swhack 00:14:51 [GlobalNotice] Hi all. We've just shut down a main rotation server provided by one of our corporate sponsors, which was experiencing severe packet loss. Please bear with us. 00:14:52 perhaps I should view all text files in IDLE :-) 00:15:54 well that sorta explains that 00:16:35 wow, it actually does a *really* good job with Unicode. I'm impressed 00:17:35 redmonk has quit ("cya") 00:17:47 Aaron, try `python -c "print u'\u201Cblargh\u203D\u201D'.encode('utf-8')"` 00:18:04 łblargh?˛ 00:18:24 heh, transmitting it over IRC doesn't tell me much :-) 00:18:37 did you get glyphs for smart quotes and an interrobang? 00:18:42 I get lquo blargh questionmark rquo 00:18:53 Hmm... close 00:18:56 no interrobang 00:19:10 IDLE on Windows displays the interrobang in all its glory! and some other funky Unicode characters too 00:21:28 it seems to be able to sniff for UTF-8, too 00:22:32 works for me with and without UTF-8 in W2K 00:22:42 interrobang shows up 00:22:57 wow. the more I play with it, the more impressed I become 00:27:23 EOW 00:27:46 c'ya 00:28:06 ta 00:29:10 who is leaving? sbp or AaronSw? 00:31:29 Mr. Swartz, of course 00:31:40 EOW 00:31:51 end of...? 00:31:55 END OF WORLD! 00:31:57 * jillzilla ducks. 00:31:58 Week 00:32:02 Oh. 00:32:03 Week. 00:32:07 That's different. 00:32:15 absolutely 00:34:03 http://www.sffs.org/fest02/titleDetail.asp?title_id=55 00:34:06 I'm going to see that. 00:34:06 Hmm... how does one go about creating a unicode character from a hex string (or the dec int) in Python? 00:34:18 unichr 00:34:33 * jillzilla wonders if this means she can see the interrobang of fable and legend. 00:34:46 cool. when? 00:34:50 Sunday. 00:35:24 deltab: thanks! 00:36:07 deltab: ending your woe in six characters or less, or your money back 00:41:34 now Python makes a good makeshift Unicode editor (although learning UniPad is probably a better idea... but I think the lisence expires on it, or something) 00:41:38 .google UniPad 00:41:38 UniPad: http://www.unipad.org/main 00:41:58 ah, my mistake: "Version 0.98b is FREE and available for download. Version 1.0 will be FREE for non-commercial use and evaluation purposes." 00:56:44 http://daisyman.arsware.org/dms/ 00:57:06 Setting up your computer to do the right thing on the event of your death. 00:59:24 interesting; depressing, but interesting. I've wondered about doing something like this... 01:04:00 I've wondered how my online friends would find out if I suddenly died. 01:04:27 When I had emergency surgery last year, I sent email to one person telling him I was going to the emergency room, so at least _someone_ would know. 01:04:35 if I never came back, that was. 01:05:35 * jillzilla remembers chatting with danbri when drug-addled after that surgery. :-) 01:06:03 * danbri wonders who was drug addled :) 01:06:12 * jillzilla now wonders if it was mutual. 01:06:28 I wonder too. I keep forgetting url of your weblog... 01:06:43 livejournal.com/~jillzilla. I haven't updated it in a hundred years. 01:06:51 "Oh, I seem to have died." unlikely weblog entry... 01:07:06 but it would successfully get the word out.l 01:07:35 february -- that's not bad. I've barely touched my so called home page in ages... 01:07:37 * jillzilla remembers sitting with a friend who was part of an online community that lost a member to suicide. 01:07:51 I'm still writing up the story of going to Toronto. Hmmm, I should go do that. 01:09:26 * jillzilla polishes code instead. 01:10:25 what're you coding? work stuff or side-project? 01:12:37 work stuff. 01:13:07 My side projects are learning Mandarin and reading a small stack of books on AI and cognitive science. No coding. 01:13:17 Hmm, I should think up a cogsci project and code it in ruby. 01:13:34 Yeah, *that* will happen soon. :-) 01:14:37 ruby! rubyrubyrubyrubyruby :) 01:14:50 cogsci! cogscicogscicogscicogsci! :) 01:14:54 together at last... 01:14:55 :-) 01:14:57 Any suggestions? 01:15:11 I'd love to learn more about parsing and about NLP. 01:15:30 Well, parsing doesn't sound like much fun. But it's essential for NLP. 01:15:53 sure. biased towards my failed phd aspirations. make a neural net -based system based on genetic algorithms / evolutionary computing... 01:16:08 * sbp pricks his ears up 01:16:09 I have no idea how to begin on that. 01:16:14 I mean, NO idea. 01:16:15 I don't hold much hope for NLP; it need commonsense, which machines patently lack. 01:16:48 Nor did I. I tried doing it in Java on my 486 in 1995/6, before getting distracted by proper job and dumping phd. 01:17:04 proper jobs can do that. 01:17:10 NLP? in Java? on a 486? 01:17:14 Neural nets are a nice thing to have your head around, and the maths is simple enough I can (with modest effort) understand. 01:17:20 Neural nets, genetic algorithms. 01:17:22 I'm more hopeful about NLP than I was before working at Google. 01:17:36 Hmmm, I wonder if my ai book gives some hints about how to write neural nets. 01:17:44 ah. the combination of the three would have made your computer melt, I'm sure 01:17:53 I never took an AI class when I was at the university. 01:18:39 really? that makes sense. I read some papers on statistical discovery of linguistic structures ages ago that for some reason always remind me of google 01:19:11 I had no idea that computers could do some of the things they do at google. 01:19:22 It has given me new hope and renewed interest. 01:19:37 http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucjtfmr/TICS/TICS.html and nearby (for some sense of nearby...) 01:20:11 and http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:7ZYkQdzNVv8C:www.psyc.bbk.ac.uk/staff/jl/pacificoffprint.ps.gz+nick+chater+usenet+corpus+neural&hl=en&ie=utf-8 01:20:17 eek. I also didn't take statistics. I really really need to remedy that. 01:20:28 It seems to be the mathematics most important to what I'm interested in. 01:20:33 unbalanced parentheses in the first paragraph. does make me want to read on... :-) 01:20:54 sbp: There, there. 01:21:08 Oh, help. Where is Warwick? 01:21:29 middle of england somewhere? 01:21:36 near what? 01:21:44 I've no idea :) 01:21:50 * jillzilla grins. 01:22:10 * danbri compiles the MOO server code 01:22:43 MOO's more fun than IRC, time to start migrating back to the 90s... 01:22:48 hi 01:22:55 I didn't resonate with muds or moos. 01:22:56 MUDs rule 01:22:57 hey, Ash. 01:23:08 Although IRC's syntax and features are much easier to understand. 01:23:10 Hi jill! 01:23:13 How are you this fine evening? 01:23:22 nice. You? 01:23:24 this is a rather interesting paper, actually 01:23:28 Muds/moos: I used to dip into them as an undergraduate. Revisited recently and found out how they work, how they can be built/extended by anyone who knows a bit of scripting... 01:23:58 IRC's less democratic in that sense. Runnign a bot is a hassle. MOO just puts you in an environment you can augment quite easily 01:24:29 I'm doing quite well. Just chilling out at home. 01:24:34 it still feels incredible to me that with living in such dark ages with respect to AI, and particularly psycology 01:24:36 I ate part of a giant steak 01:24:48 * danbri waves to Ash, wonders if we've irc-met (don't think so) 01:24:57 then I remembered why I hadn't eaten cows in a while 01:24:58 * danbri <- http://rdfweb.org/people/danbri/ 01:25:03 danbri: I don't think so, actually! 01:25:16 Ash is a regular on #infoanarchy. danbri is an irregular there. 01:25:20 I don't have a cool homepage, but I seem to be constantly on IRC. 01:25:22 :-) 01:25:26 I lurk mostly there, don't know most folks 01:25:41 homepage: me neither, but i eventually got around to making a stopgap 01:27:55 ahh 01:28:03 Well excellent! 01:28:15 I'm Aaron, and I'm a sysadmin (which is why I'm on IRC all day) 01:28:19 @ http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucjtfmr/TICS/TICS.html 01:28:24 living in Salt Lake City, ut 01:28:36 * jillzilla suddenly feels like she's back at a sysadmins anonymous meeting. 01:28:43 You have to take your recovery one day at a time! 01:28:43 * sbp nudges chumpy 01:28:55 A: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucjtfmr/TICS/TICS.html from sbp 01:29:01 A:|Probabilistic and Distributional Approaches to Language Acquisition 01:29:17 titled item A 01:29:44 I need an a.s.r interface through irc 01:29:53 A::via. DanBri (thanks, DanBri) 01:30:06 * Ash wonders if danbri has any tree files 01:30:07 *g* 01:30:10 commented item A 01:30:25 tree? don't think so 01:30:30 er, whats a tree file? 01:30:50 * danbri runs up moo server with the LiverpoolCore database on rdfweb.org 7777 01:31:10 feel free to nose around; I'll blank it down and make and RDFIG/SWHACK/etc playground at some point. 01:31:11 Ash: heh 01:31:25 BenSw (~x@12-249-96-16.client.attbi.com) has joined #swhack 01:31:31 hey Ben 01:31:33 Hello 01:31:52 Hello, Ben. 01:31:57 I don't think we've met before. 01:32:13 know but i've heard about you 01:32:18 Oh? 01:33:04 s/know/no 01:33:12 * jillzilla nods. 01:33:25 you work at google right? 01:33:31 Indeed. 01:33:49 * danbri tries to pretend he's not impressed 01:34:19 * jillzilla blushes. I am just a script monkey who gets down in the mud with the crawl. I don't do the cool stuff. 01:34:37 (websites I use every day: w3.org, rdfweb.org, google.com, rdfig.xmlhack.com) 01:34:55 muddy monkey! 01:35:18 eep eep! 01:35:45 .google ben swartz 01:35:46 ben swartz: http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/Message/pygame-users/1058486 01:36:09 wohoo at least it isn't that ben swartz guy at his desk 01:36:21 * danbri revisits muddy murky moo tutorial... http://www.cms.dmu.ac.uk/~cph/MOO/mootutor1.txt 01:39:45 * jillzilla sends a coworker a polite objection to his code review. 01:40:06 My code is correct, and he's trying to get me to do it in a way that would make it not correct. 01:40:21 * jillzilla admires this coworker immensely. 01:40:52 But the fact is, I tested the SNOT out of this code. 01:41:17 * jillzilla is extremely sceptical of the S-W hypothesis. 01:41:24 * danbri reading back, saw this. 01:41:30 Which S-W hypothesis? 01:41:38 Sapir-Whorf. 01:41:51 phew, thought you meant semweb. should've skimmed further :) 01:42:03 hee. No, not semantic web. :-) 01:42:11 I am agnostic on that. 01:42:36 * danbri supports a weak sapir-whorf view... 01:42:56 lots of times I've found that the acquisition of terminology helped me think more clearly about something 01:43:17 the terms just being labels for the practice of making certain distinctions 01:44:42 Oh, yes, I agree with that. 01:45:14 But it is possible to apprehend distinctions without having different words for them. 01:45:35 pawn_ (kmnguyen@alpha3.csd.uwm.edu) has joined #swhack 01:45:42 random past life fragment -- http://www.bris.ac.uk/Depts/Philosophy/CTLL/report.txt -- THE CONSERVATION OF ENDANGERED LANGUAGES 01:45:49 I completely agree 01:46:36 * danbri thinks about being offline for a while 01:46:37 syn|ack_ (~synack@210-86-60-137.jetstart.xtra.co.nz) has joined #swhack 01:46:47 afternoon folks 01:46:48 I think S-W is intuitively appealing because it fits our experiences -- as we learn about things, we learn or invent vocabulary for them, so it seems true that without words we cannot think. 01:46:58 Hello, syn|ack_. 01:47:06 heh, whenever I'm about to go to sleep, syn|ack pops up and says 'afternoon!' :) 01:47:14 This is a bit presumptuous of me, but would you mind terribly if I called you synack? 01:47:15 danbri: :( 01:47:27 I'm sure we can think w/ out words... 01:47:32 jillzilla: not at all 01:47:39 It's spooky, the timing... 01:47:39 very kind of you. 01:47:57 danbri: i was just going to fire you off an email... 01:48:18 jillzilla: :) 01:48:19 s|a, I looked at yr soap etc stuff, never figured out what to type to make it so I had records to play with. Didn't have time to try very hard though. 01:48:40 synack, danbri: Those of us for whom it is still Friday salute you. 01:48:48 * danbri wonders if jillzilla's followed the google/soap mini-fuss... 01:48:58 I'm aware of it. 01:49:03 I think it's still thursday wherever syn|ack is 01:49:12 no, it's saturday 01:49:13 Oh, I thought synack was in NZ. 01:49:15 1355 01:49:27 yep, NZ is me 01:49:38 It kinda relates to the crawl, that's what made me wonder... crawlers send HTTP GET messages with abandon; HTTP POSTs at their own risk. 01:49:38 NZ gets all the days first! 01:49:52 I've seen the future... 01:49:54 If the web dissapears behind HTTP POST and SOAP, Google's favourite dataset vanishes. 01:50:13 danbri: that's a good point! 01:50:13 * danbri exaggerates clumsily for effect 01:50:34 If people disappear behind POST and SOAP, they will disappear from Google. 01:50:59 But Google dissapeared behind POST and SOAP... :) 01:51:11 disappeared? 01:51:18 being listed in Google is a big incentive to do the right thing... 01:51:24 well, the query api thing 01:51:39 This is an odd definition of "disappear". 01:52:09 danbri: shall i still send you this email so you can read it after rest if you are tired, or care to chat a bit now? 01:52:16 more context: Syn|ack and I were talking about ideas for a next-gen Ruby Application Archive (CPAN-alike for Ruby code). And SOAP vs REST debate spread to Ruby lists... 01:52:24 What is REST? 01:52:58 REpresentational State Transition is what it stands for... 01:53:00 We don't want RAA to dissapear from Google, for example, but SOAP tools are pretty handy sometimes. So might try to explore halfway-to-SOAP options... using HTTP GET etc. 01:53:06 jillzilla: from what I can gather it's a philosophy 01:53:22 * jillzilla is unenlightened. 01:53:25 its a slogan for the previously unarticualted design of the Web 01:53:38 What is the state that transitions to what? 01:53:43 * syn|ack_ tries to summarize 01:54:11 its a way of organizing an application by resources (mostly nouns), not actions 01:54:31 when one does an HTTP GET, you're sending a message (including content/lang negotiation etc) asking some service for a representation of a resource. You don't get the thing itself, just a message back packaging up (w/ mimetype etc) some representation of it. 01:54:45 ...idea behind content negotiation etc. 01:54:52 * syn|ack_ notes he gave a poor summary 01:55:00 http://internet.conveyor.com/RESTwiki/moin.cgi/FrontPage 01:55:11 [[ 01:55:17 In particular, REST suggests that what the Web got right is having a small, global set of verbs (HttpMethods: GET, POST, PUT, DELETE, etc) applied to a potentially infinite set of nouns 01:55:17 ]] 01:55:55 also from what I gather, REST philosohpy is big on linking to other resources 01:56:05 ...idea is that we stick with a few well known verbs / operations (so that for eg web crawlers know what they mean / do), instead of proliferating millions of HTTP methods / verbs / operations (or hiding similar behind HTTP POST) 01:56:05 where as SOAP doesn't deal with that AFAIK 01:56:39 SOAP invocations are all XML docs sent via HTTP POST, where soap tools see a method such as getStockTickerGivenCompanyCode(MSFT). 01:57:08 The REST view is that safer to use HTTP GET on a uri such as http://example.com/stockinfo/getStockTickerGivenCompanyCode?MSFT 01:57:29 ...since it doesn't undermine caching, linking, and other common infrastructure of the web 01:57:37 * danbri wonders if he's making any sense 01:57:43 or... 01:57:57 http://example.com/stockinfo/MSFT ? 01:58:01 err 01:58:06 http://example.com/stockinfo/ticker/MSFT ? 01:58:51 * syn|ack_ thinks 01:59:00 http://example.com/stockinfo/ticker/company/MSFT ? 01:59:01 Anything in that vein, detail woudln't matter much except convinence of the service provider 01:59:30 I should go sleep. Do send me mail though! especially idiot-guide for getting RAA data via your scripts... 01:59:50 danbri: hehe 01:59:58 danbri: i'll write you email now 02:00:03 danbri: sleep well 02:00:12 another example: http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/raa-list.rhtml?name=RubyRDF 02:00:12 cya @ breakfast :) 02:00:26 ...gives human readable version of the RAA entry for my half-baked rdf ruby code 02:01:07 * jillzilla catches up. 02:01:09 ...for machines, we could use same URI, but send 'accept: application/rdf+xml' or 'accept: application/soap-encoding+xml' 02:01:45 clients could even negotiate their desired returned content 02:02:00 indeed, that's why I want the RAA data from your script :) 02:02:11 I think google should switch to using http GRABS 02:02:12 I have a version kinda from the other soap interface, but incomplete 02:02:19 grabs? 02:02:22 which data are you interested in? I ran into soap issues last night that left me frustrated.... 02:02:22 ehehe 02:02:28 all of it 02:02:29 .google tree files 02:02:30 tree files: http://taxonomy.zoology.gla.ac.uk/rod/treeview/help/mega.html 02:02:37 .google neo85 tree files 02:02:38 no results found. 02:02:39 :( 02:04:36 * danbri heads off; g'nite all 02:04:48 night danbri 02:05:01 meet'cha @ breakfast :) 02:05:04 * danbri still wonders if the rest ramblings above made sense to jill, might find out another time 02:05:12 Yes, danbri, they did. 02:05:21 breakfast's unpredictably timed aroudn here, but I'll be back tommorrow on'n'off 02:05:36 jill: :) 02:05:42 * jillzilla smiles. 02:07:49 who else is awake here? 02:08:02 * jillzilla feigns sleep. 02:08:10 zzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZzzzzzzz 02:08:30 Hey, synack, how did you get involved with this crew? What's your interest? 02:08:35 nothing 02:09:01 And you, Ben, what are you most interested in? 02:09:01 * syn|ack_ winks at jillzilla and wonders where to start :) 02:09:11 * jillzilla giggles at the wink. 02:10:38 Not sure exactly how I ended up in here. Deltab answered a question i had in #vim (not relateing to VIM, but more relateing to REST I think it was). He mentioned this channel at that time 02:10:46 Aha. 02:11:22 heh 02:11:28 I dabble a lot with Ruby and am trying to learn more about SOAP, REST and alternatives 02:11:32 ah sbp your awake 02:11:36 deltab is the only reason to join this pitiful channel 02:11:49 I'm awake, and hacking on a Perl script 02:11:50 except sbp and Morbus, of course. 02:11:59 no. just deltab 02:12:30 oh man 02:12:38 BenSw has quit ("[quit message here]") 02:14:20 * jillzilla gets an urge to have a fascinating conversation with sbp. 02:16:30 * sbp gets an urge to reciprocate 02:17:09 * jillzilla contemplates this urge. 02:18:37 * sbp finds his Perl one-liner working, and wonders what on earth happened 02:19:22 llll is trying to get me to go to Amsterdam for Tuesday. 02:20:04 * sbp refrains from singing "Tuplips from Amsterdam" 02:20:11 sing! sing! 02:22:34 actually, I don't know the word 02:22:45 lineabove += 's' 02:23:33 hum! hum! 02:23:39 Hmm... 02:23:52 :-) 02:24:13 so, are we going to have that fascinating conversation? 02:24:30 I think we should. 02:24:44 Hmm. 02:24:55 I am reminded of a final exam I took once in film history. 02:25:09 We were given a list of something like 14 questions and told to answer, in essay form, three of them. 02:25:23 One of them was "Write a brilliant essay on cinema and time." 02:25:50 heh. I love "questions" like that 02:26:09 I am not usually so bold, but I picked that one and ended up writing about the unique possibilities of film as a potential medium for presenting models of subnuclear physicals processes. 02:26:30 University life is very silly. 02:26:55 er s/physicals/physical/, of course. 02:27:13 "just write something. about? cattle, magnetic sheep, foxtrot evolution, jumbo crosswords, multicolored t-shirts, arithmetical shortcuts on abacuses, anything! just make sure it's good" 02:28:14 subnuclear? heh. why not? I've watched many a good movie on quarks, gluons, neutrinos, bosons, photons, kaons, and whatnot 02:29:13 And remember, I only had about half an hour to conceive of and write this thing. I'm sure it was unimpressive, but fun. 02:29:30 O.K. 02:29:54 oll korrect, et ceteras -- ... 02:30:33 I don't believe the "oll korrect" theory for the etymology of OK. 02:30:46 well, it's true, so tough crap 02:31:17 Oh? What new evidence has been found? My reading has indicated that there were several ideas, none well verified. 02:31:18 heh. I've been reading "the many proofs of P", clearly 02:31:45 some guy did an enormous amount of research on the topic some decades ago, and ran a series of stunning and farily conclusive articles 02:32:04 Which are to be found... 02:32:39 ah: Allen Walker 02:32:56 to be found in editions of American Speech in the early '60s 02:33:05 My sources are from about 1987. 02:33:28 cf. http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_250 http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/linguist/issues/4/4-694.html http://www.alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxokxxxx.html http://www.m-w.com/whist/ok.htm http://www.wordorigins.org/wordoro.htm http://www.urbanlegends.com/language/etymology/ok_etymology_of.html 02:34:47 The first one is the best explanation of the oll korrect theory I've read yet. 02:35:04 Walker Read, rather... 02:35:18 indeed. your sources should have done a bit of research 02:36:00 touché (latin for...) 02:36:05