00:06:58 seth's gonna put up a simpson's page and sell simpson paraphenalia 00:09:55 para-for-whatlia? 00:10:34 BTW, you seem to have a bit of apostrophal incontinence there 00:10:58 unless you're putting up a page for a Mr./Ms. Simpson 00:12:51 do not = don't 00:12:58 seth's = seth is 00:13:10 waaazamatter 00:13:21 simpson's != Simpsons :-) 00:13:57 "alt.pedantic.sbp.stop.stop.stop" - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2001Nov/0000 00:14:32 'simpson's' nota symbal. 00:16:45 (anyway, I've been talking about a load of Morbii having things, so who am I to nitpick?) 00:17:51 tansaku_xr has quit ("http://www.neurogrid.net or nothing at all") 00:17:52 actually ya gota point .. how to form a the possessive symbals ? 00:18:16 [ownedBy Simpsons] called ?symbal 00:18:56 that seems alright 00:19:15 that was a question, unretorical 00:19:15 "Whose is it? It's the Simpsons'" 00:19:29 cant put the ' in a symbal 00:19:30 yep, I'm just mulling it over 00:19:45 well, properties themselves indicate a kind of possesiveness 00:20:02 :Bob :dog :Fido . 00:20:13 Bob's dog is Fido 00:20:31 TimBL was going to use the $ sign for backwards traversal, IIRC 00:20:43 {Bob dog Fido} a Nonesense 00:20:56 so that Boss$email would be the Boss's email, or [ is email of Boss ] 00:21:09 Nonesense a Nonsense :-) 00:21:14 $ dont make it in Semenglish 00:21:34 got to be a word 00:21:37 why not? does it conflict with a conflicting symbol? 00:21:49 er.. symbol was a bad choice of words... 00:21:58 as was conflicting 00:22:12 I meant: does it conflict with an existing construct? 00:22:19 got to be pronounceable ... got to be a word ... my own personal preference ... maybe ill even burn it into the code 00:22:39 you should make the constraints on the language clear 00:22:47 i call them symbals ... note the spelling 00:23:14 OTOH, N3 isn't all that well defined! but that's N3, and I don't think you want to repeat history, do you? :-) 00:23:20 probably will [a-z] ... that should do it 00:23:40 :NotIfYouWantToMakeCoolClassNames a rdfs:Class . 00:23:44 nope .. want something between N3 and English 00:24:33 ok so it's [a-zA-Z] ?? 00:25:16 well, my recommendation for the name production in N3 is [A-Za-z0-9_]+ 00:25:39 but I think that people could cope with [A-Za-z] 00:25:51 (er... [A-Za-z]+) 00:26:00 hyphens too! 00:26:02 gotta run 00:26:09 heh, that was quick 00:26:31 well, there's TimBL's hyphen thing... 00:26:50 yep ill prob go with your recommendation ... but words i coil will be [A-Za-z]+ 00:27:02 coil = coin 00:27:08 "It would be nice to be able to outlaw - in IDs" - http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Notation3 00:27:35 well, it's entirely up to you, and the requirements for your application and of your target domain 00:28:03 well i want to be able to read n3 with no complaints 00:28:22 outlaw - in IDs ?? 00:28:37 uh oh: "there's yet another N3 parser in Python" - http://www.w3.org/2002/02/mid/5.1.0.14.2.20020425232949.00a49ec0@joy.songbird.com 00:28:41 heh, as we're speaking, people are writing new N3 parsers! 00:28:51 cf. http://www.ninebynine.org/RDFNotes/RDFForLittleLanguages.htm 00:29:13 why outlaw hyphens? 00:29:41 dunno. ask TimBL 00:30:01 I think he was reserving them in N3 for mathematical operations 00:30:15 what, *hyphens*? 00:30:19 but I'm not sure why he'd want to get rid of them in XML (which is what's emplied) 00:30:27 em-minus characters 00:30:51 minus signs I could agree with, but not hyphens 00:30:51 why not? 00:31:06 right... 00:31:19 but ASCII made things fuzzy 00:32:17 * sbp goes through Graham's code 00:33:09 ew, there's some pretty bad stuff in there already 00:33:18 "@equivalence"? yuck 00:33:23 incidentally, sean, your QName Survey was very useful .. thanks! 00:33:29 np 00:33:36 it felt bad enough adding @use and @keyword 00:34:03 the '">-" prop "->"' forms were taken out a long time ago 00:35:58 interesting code 00:37:33 let's speed test it! 00:37:43 utility server being moved, minor netsplit 00:41:08 split and full proxy check coming up, please bear with us 01:02:39 jillzilla has left #swhack 01:10:35 jillzilla (~jill@216-239-45-4.google.com) has joined #swhack 01:19:52 JILLZILLA 01:20:01 ASH 01:20:22 What's up there 01:31:02 everything, thanks to inflation 01:31:03 Heh, i just got someone hooked on towers of hanoi 01:31:13 how cruel 01:31:41 he's got two more washers to go 01:31:46 i told him i'd be back in 2 hours 01:32:43 this channel is the closest I have gotten to a parallel dimension 01:33:39 * AaronSw chuckles. I wonder if that's good or bad. 01:34:32 definately good - opens the mind of what could be possible if I drank more coffee? :P 01:35:34 seriously though, i mean it's like IRC but different 01:36:05 perhaps the IRC of the future? bots doing this, doing that 01:38:24 all the bots are useless! 01:38:27 .makeMyTea 01:38:33 gah 01:39:27 "Swhack: all your bots are belong to us" 01:42:42 .writeMySoftware 01:42:59 redmonk, software written and uploaded 01:43:10 woohoo. that's what I'm talking about 01:43:51 are you kidding me? with all the web at my fingertips, i got better things to do, pal! 01:44:04 lol 01:44:08 eikeon! 01:44:19 I missed you talk :( 01:44:33 I noticed... 01:44:36 Got busy with Redfoot releases all of a sudden... 01:44:40 how did it go? 01:44:51 ah. at least you didn't get stuck wandering around cambridge 01:44:58 I thought it went really well. I wrote it up. 01:45:07 http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/000233 01:45:15 linking to http://www.aaronsw.com/2002/6171talk/talk 01:46:18 @ http://www.cs.cornell.edu/home/kleinber/swn.d/swn.html 01:46:52 A: http://www.cs.cornell.edu/home/kleinber/swn.d/swn.html from AaronSw 01:46:56 A:: this kleinberg paper fucking _rocks!_ it's absolutely beautiful work, that i was not aware of before 01:47:15 commented item A 01:47:20 GR 01:49:42 Hmph 01:49:49 * sbp was writing a Swhack FAQ. Soon gave that up 01:50:19 sample: "We're a bunch of pernickety pedants, prudes, nitpickers, quibblers, hemotilists, and literary teratologists. So deal with it. However, we don't mind if you get your grammar or spelling too wrongly, since we're all fairly laid back, easy going people. Except for xena. But anyway, just remember that everything that you say is being logged." 01:51:42 heh, the list of people that we "frown upon" on Swhack is quite funny too 01:53:44 so what is it? 01:53:48 (the list) 01:57:14 aah, you'll just have to wait and find out 02:05:21 redmonk has quit ("cya") 02:08:01 deltab is now known as in 02:08:16 in is now known as deltab 02:42:42 the deltab is in 02:51:27 work in progress: http://infomesh.net/2002/swhackfaq/ 02:57:51 tis not owned by me. it's an equal partnership, 50/50 02:58:12 Heh! 'I once asked Aaron, in all seriousness, "does a dog have Swhack-nature?". Aaron retorted "shut up, you idiot!".' 02:58:25 I did not! shut up, you idiot! 02:58:45 :-) 02:59:33 you're the founder... I kinda equate that with owner. I don't mind, particularly. You came up with the channel name, entered the channel, and founded it. No biggie, dude 02:59:47 (note the section on "dude" later on in the FAQ) 03:00:01 you want me to make you the owner? you're already the successor 03:00:37 lol @ professional Java programmers 03:00:43 what?! I don't want to be the owner at all! I'm rather glad that you founded it 03:00:47 heh, heh 03:00:47 /kick redmonk :professional Java programmers 03:01:34 so sean, what's you best start of the art N3 parser? 03:01:39 I thought our goal was to immanetntize the eschaton. I'm confused. 03:01:43 the Hints and Tips section is the best bit, I think 03:02:25 tav is also prone to leg-humping 03:02:30 Seth: do you mean my favourite N3 parser of all time, or the one that I think is best, or the best one that I've worked on, or what? 03:02:30 especially on software 03:02:44 Eschaton: we can flip flop, I suppose 03:02:45 how about linking to the channel? 03:02:48 (cough zope cough) 03:02:59 yeah, but tav's not really about swhack, is he? 03:03:02 the one i should try to build on in the mentography api 03:03:30 deltab: good point! I left out a link to the channel on purpose ("if you can't find it, you don't deserve to be here"), but forgot to add the note 03:03:44 SethR: I don't know anything about your requirements, so I have no idea! 03:05:14 well i like the idea that i can define token types with python regular expressions ... n3.py looked pretty good to me .. just wanted to know if there is something that superseeds that or if i have the latest copy 03:05:27 well, I'm using Yapps now 03:05:33 but that does suck a bit 03:05:50 it messes up comments, for some reason, so I'll have to pre-process it. ugh 03:06:19 dont know about Yapps .. seems to be overkill to me .. more complicate to use than just writing the code yourself 03:07:05 I don't think it's that much more complicated 03:07:27 it depends upon your approach, of course 03:09:13 so after n3.py you started using Yapps? ... if so where is the lastest version of n3.py ? 03:09:43 the latest version of n3.py is not yet on the Web, and neither is my enchanced rdfn3.g 03:10:26 heh: "For Heaven's sake, this one isn't even spelled the same way! If someone can't tell the difference, they probably shouldn't be doing anything as exacting as writing software." - http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~aycock/spark/ 03:11:07 can i have your latest n3.py ? 03:11:10 the Spark stuff is an alternative. Haven't used it a great deal, so I'm not sure how good it is 03:11:13 sure 03:12:02 davb is now known as googleman 03:12:20 sent 03:12:35 :) 03:12:39 I'm not putting them online just yet, since I might make another major API change 03:15:01 googleman is now known as davb 03:16:57 so did rdfn3.g go into Yappa to generate n3.py ? 03:17:39 no, it generated rdfn3.py which I forgot to send to you (oops). Would you like it? 03:17:48 yep 03:17:48 it's not all that intelligable or necessary to read 03:17:54 * sbp sends it anyway 03:18:01 all the relevant info. is in rdfn3.g 03:18:30 sent 03:18:36 thanks 03:19:16 np 03:19:32 tansaku_xr (~sam@mtl10gw.mtl.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp) has joined #swhack 03:21:01 it can be generated anyway using python yapps2.py rdfn3.g rdfn3.py > /dev/null 03:21:17 davb has left #swhack 03:21:40 on SPARK vs. Yapps: umm... I don't think so. yapps blows away spark for N3 03:22:37 do you think rdfn3.py is better than n3.py ? 03:23:05 yes. (presuming you mean Eep's n3.py) 03:23:23 how compared to the one you just sent me 03:23:31 pardon? 03:24:03 I mean that EepII's rdfn3.py/n3.py combination (that I just sent you) is better than Eep's old n3.py parser that I wrote about one or two months ago 03:24:29 since it can grok formula and lists properly (which I was only working towards in n3.py) 03:24:52 s/formula/formulae/ 03:25:24 OK, you asked for it: http://www.aaronsw.com/2002/ircStyle 03:25:39 but I'm still not 100% certain that Yapps is the best direction for N3 parsing... 03:25:41 ooh! 03:27:17 lol @ " wow, like, where are the tree files?" 03:27:35 ahem @ "Do not include the channel name in the topic. It is implicitly included." 03:27:53 it's Morbus that runs into the wall constantly! 03:27:55 well direction wise i want to be able to define grammars with arrows ... as in SyntaxSemenglish7.gif 03:28:14 anything that will get me closer to that is the direction i want to go in 03:28:23 "volate": yeah, well, you also "volate" the rules of spelling 03:28:45 Morbus is reserved for making out with the female members of the channel. 03:28:53 * sbp checks out http://robustai.net/mentography/SyntaxSemenglish7.gif 03:28:55 heh! 03:29:01 (@ Aaron's comment) 03:29:28 "The same goes if you're making out with the female members of the channel. Like, get a room! Especially if you're Morbus." 03:29:34 I guess that the concat rules are to read from left to right? 03:29:41 I don't think that'd work in a directionless graph :-) 03:30:04 yep .. those arrows would have the seq attribute .. therefore they are ordered 03:30:07 Aaron: heh, heh 03:30:51 same with the alt ... sometimes that might make a difference 03:31:13 what's the difference between a compound word with three words and a reified statement? 03:31:21 that was so obvious in the graph, that i omitted sticking numbers on each arrow 03:31:24 what on earth is a compound word anyway? 03:32:00 Q: Um, do you just wish that IRC was a MUD or MOO where you could be in multiple rooms at the same time? 03:32:00 A: Yeah, so? What's it to you, pal? 03:32:11 not to mention an NExpression 03:32:19 heh 03:32:36 you know that graph is pretty old, probably not good to look at it too closely ... just pointed to it to indicate that the Yapps grammar directives can be *inside* the graph, and not embedded in the python code 03:32:37 just hanging about in your average field... 03:32:54 right 03:33:06 well, that's the blindfold direction, I guess 03:33:11 vapourware! 03:33:13 invoking rule C4, can you two get a room? 03:33:15 excuse me 03:33:35 what room wouldst thou suggesteth? 03:33:57 ah! #sbp Just the ticker 03:34:00 ticket, that is 03:36:00 it'd be so great to be able to update parsers thorough a new BNF. impossible though. you need new code 03:36:16 not with (trumpets) blindfold! 03:36:26 :-) 03:36:37 nope, just type the BNF right into the graph, and interpert it directly 03:36:42 you mean: [magnificent and majectic fanfare] 03:37:23 er... no. you need code to interpret the tokens, if you can even get to the token phase. 03:38:05 for example, blindfold hinges on the semantic annotations idea. those annotations are API-specific. When the API changes, the annotations can become invalid 03:38:46 welll ... hummm ... let's see ... what one of your functions in rdfn3.py should we have be a primitive built in ? ... you tell me 03:39:42 well, I'd like to see you convert rdfn3.py to RDF :-) 03:39:53 perhaps I just don't know enough about declarative programming... 03:40:20 lol 03:40:28 SwhackMOO (~aaronsw@63.149.73.20) has joined #swhack 03:40:32 but even with a prolog N3 parser, there are some pretty heavy duty components 03:40:37 SwhackMOO! 03:40:52 look 03:40:53 You see a big open space with people teleporting in and out, toys scattered around the floors and displays, speakers and whiteboards along the walls and ceiling. 03:41:15 look AaronSw 03:41:16 AaronSw is a tall and slender and a pale white, with black clothes draped loosely around him. He wears an artist's beret and has a round and friendly face, deep in concentration, but faintly smiling. 03:41:26 hm, gotta fix that... 03:41:49 SwhackMOO, reload! 03:41:50 look, AaronSw, I told you to fix it months ago! 03:42:04 look AaronSw 03:42:07 AaronSw is tall, slender and a pale white, with black clothes draped loosely around him. He wears an artist's beret and has a round and friendly face, deep in concentration, but faintly smiling. 03:42:09 ah, the comma and/or extra junk stopped it from going into one 03:42:45 look sbp 03:42:45 sbp not found, please submit a description to AaronSw 03:42:51 sbp? 03:42:56 AaronSw? 03:43:03 please submit your MOO description 03:44:02 no way. I consider myself not-bovine. Those MOOs are taking over, y'know, and it's us against them. Hmm... that's fairly consistent with the first episode of South Park 03:44:17 now come on, that's not fair 03:44:39 i guess i'll just have to write one for you 03:44:44 whee! 03:44:45 nah, that won't work. 03:44:52 yeah, t'will 03:44:54 i'll just have to /kick you out. it's required 03:45:07 nooooooooo (which rhymes with no, not moo) 03:45:19 then ya better come up with one 03:45:27 sbp is a guy. there 03:45:52 you need more than that. do you need some examples? 03:46:02 http://www.asi.org/moonsims/bible/moo-bot-descriptions.html 03:47:27 oh man, it's that page again! :-) 03:47:49 according to that thing, I'd be an "attractive young woman" 03:47:55 "X is an attractive young woman" 03:47:56 heh, snap 03:48:13 which conflicts just a little bit with my rather snazzy "sbp is a guy. there" 03:48:18 they've got some attractive young men later on 03:49:00 heh, like this guy?: "Bruce McIntyre is an appealingly pudgy mature man wearing a gray sports coat and black slacks. He has short, balding graying hair and gray eyes." 03:49:21 i like the imag 03:50:05 heh, heh 03:50:34 it's kinda freaky, but with an element of hipsterism, and a whiff of funk 03:50:59 in a Madison Avenue Plastic Fantastic style�, of course 03:51:00 Fine, i'll write one for you... 03:51:51 good. try to make it consistent with "sbp is a guy. there" if you can 03:51:57 be a good fellow :-) 03:54:13 sbp is a tall and friendly young man. He's always wearing a wide smile with his trademark buttoned blue plaid shirt. He wears long black trousers that partially cover his bare feet and waves hello to anyone that passes by. 03:54:49 wow, that didn't suck nearly as much as I thought it would 03:55:10 I don't know if I should print what I originally had. 03:55:17 it makes me sound a bit like the Cheshire Cat, but O.K... 03:55:19 My head was filled with bad vibes from that asi page. 03:55:24 heh, heh 03:55:53 look sbp 03:55:54 sbp is a tall and friendly young man. He's always wearing a wide smile with his trademark buttoned blue plaid shirt. He wears long black trousers that partially cover his bare feet and waves hello to anyone that passes by. 03:56:30 You'd probably do a much better job, though. 03:56:36 why would my feet be going in the nuddy? 03:56:43 i dunno 03:57:17 I tried to imagine you, and I realized that I never saw your feet. So I guessed. 03:57:19 perhaps I've just been paddling, or something 03:57:45 I used the general rule that things you can't see are usually not wearing anything. 03:57:56 lol! 03:57:56 Hi all. Bit of European rehubbing in process, please bear with us 03:58:04 oh man, that's an absolute classic 03:58:17 that, in fact, is one of the funnies things ever said in #swhack 03:58:32 I thought you might like that one. 03:58:56 sbp has changed the topic to: I used the general rule that things you can't see are usually not wearing anything. 03:59:01 I tested the theory on myself. 03:59:13 Now that was *not* intentional. Late hour in the middle of North America. Apologies. 03:59:27 pff, if it's a late hour there... 03:59:32 .time CST 03:59:33 Apr. 25, 2002 10:59 pm US/Central 04:00:31 I think we need an Ashifyer. Like the borkborkbork filter. 04:01:05 WHAT IS TEH ASKIFIER?!?!@ 04:01:49 that would be so great 04:01:50 in another channel: touche! (latin for "oooh, dis!") 04:02:09 At this point I think one quick bit of network-wide rerouting, including services. This should just take a moment. 04:02:17 .wn dis 04:02:21 Google need to introduce it as a language option 04:02:36 Well, they already have hax0r 04:03:26 cf. http://www.google.com/intl/xx-hacker/ 04:03:48 my fave is "EyE Am ph33|1n6 |u(ky" 04:03:54 Okay, that seems to be everything. We're deliberately leaving most of the US and all of the main rotation out of the rehubbing, just for now, during testing. We hope the new hub will handle load well, and if so we should be able to finish rerouting in the next few days. Thanks for your patience. 04:04:22 shouldn't the MOOey thing be voiced? 04:04:22 it's the color of Swhack, and MOOey in the middle! 04:04:46 (And, again, apologies to Australia for accidentally finishing that rerouting at the *wrong* time of day. *sighrin* 04:05:09 ) 04:11:51 you should see what it has for DCMA-blocked results 04:12:25 G00613, that is 04:13:30 ah, goodd idea 04:14:19 "y0, 1 0F y3r R3zU|7z vv3R3 DMCA'd! K|1x h34R 2 z33 d@ x0Mpl@1Nt." 04:15:00 translation: "yo, 1 of your results were DMCA'd! Click here to see the complaint." 04:15:27 hrm, that's changed 04:15:57 what did it used to be? 04:20:03 well, SYGIGH 04:20:04 Gotta run 04:21:34 3r R3zU|7z vv3R3 DMCA'd! K|1x h34R 2 z33 d@ 04:21:34 x0Mpl@1Nt." 04:22:12 uh 04:22:43 that's not what I just copied 04:23:31 "y0, K|_|z 0f sU|\/| \/\/h1n|N \/\/3 607 80|_|7 d@ D1617@| |\/|1|_|_3Nn1|_|M K0p33r1t3 4c7, w3 |-|@Ck3d 4 0F y3r R3zU|7z! y00 k@|\| z33 d@ d|\/|C4 \/\/h1n3 4 d@ |\|ux3d 0n3z." 04:35:07 * AaronSw tries to translate 04:49:10 .acronym SYGIGH 04:49:14 SYGIGH: 04:53:05 "yo, kuz of sum whinin w3 got bout da digital millenium kopyrite act, we hacked 4 of yer resultz! yoo kan zee da dmca whinin 4 da nuked onez." 04:58:31 tansaku_xr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:00:26 tansaku_xr (~sam@mtl10gw.mtl.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp) has joined #swhack 06:10:01 SwhackMOO has quit ("[BX] bb bbba bbbba bbbitchx bitchx!!!") 06:10:49 g'nite 06:14:12 tansaku_xr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:34:54 tansaku_xr (~sam@mtl10gw.mtl.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp) has joined #swhack 06:55:24 syn|ack_ (~synack@210-86-60-137.jetstart.xtra.co.nz) has joined #swhack 06:55:32 hi all 06:56:18 jillium (~jill@dsl092-186-227.sfo2.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #swhack 06:56:25 hey there jillium. 06:56:28 hey. 06:56:33 you're up late. 06:56:52 Yeah, just about to go to bed... waiting for the solutions for my crypto class to print 06:56:53 Oh, did I mention that today is "state the obvious day"? 06:57:05 I don't believe so. 06:57:09 Well, Friday is "state the obvious day". It's almost Friday here. 06:57:17 It's Friday here. 06:57:23 I know. 06:57:38 But "you're up late" isn't always obvious with me. Someone told me that last night and I looked and it was 3AM. 06:57:55 * jillium nods. Yeah, when one gets involved in something. 06:58:19 I, for instance, am attempting to read my entire disk to see if it is having hardware problems. 06:59:21 My computer does that on boot. It is annoying, and one reason why I do not like to reboot my computer. 06:59:30 Unless you're talking about a bad blocks check. 06:59:39 I'm running a dd over the disk. 06:59:45 So an unofficial bad blocks check. 06:59:58 * AaronSw rereads jillium's sentence. It's clearly getting late. 07:01:26 Well, good luck. I'm off to bed. Good night. 07:01:33 Heh. 07:01:34 Night. 07:02:00 * AaronSw turns up volume on computer so that he will wake up in time for telecon 07:20:01 is this telecon thing some new software I haven't heard of yet? 07:20:19 hello, tansaku. 07:20:25 hi jillium 07:20:30 I think he means a teleconference. 07:20:34 Not certain, though. 07:20:46 yes, he mentioned it on some other channels, 07:20:54 but he also talks about turning up his computer 07:21:12 * syn|ack_ suspects that is his alarm clock 07:21:18 so maybe its telephone conference over ip 07:21:27 synlack_ interesting idea 07:21:30 .google telecon 07:21:31 telecon: http://www.teleconexpos.com 07:22:08 hmm top return from google can't actually be viewed 07:22:15 I wonder who's linking to it 07:22:34 well anyway, I guess AaronSw is getting more and more important by the nano-second 07:22:45 I've never been asked to take a conference call .... 07:25:00 guess that's just me then 07:25:05 catch you guys later 07:25:22