IRC log of swhack on 2002-02-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:01:38 [Morbus]
i think y connection is flaky today
00:02:08 [sbp]
and what is it that you run, again?
00:02:26 [Morbus]
hmM?
00:42:29 [MorbusIff]
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00:45:19 [kmacleod]
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00:45:45 [kmacleod]
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00:50:32 [MorbusIff]
anything exciting happening recently?
00:50:53 [sbp]
dunno
01:00:23 [Morbus]
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01:45:35 [Morbus]
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02:23:02 [Morbus]
viva los alamos!
02:23:03 [Morbus]
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02:23:27 [sbp]
.google "viva los alamos!"
02:23:28 [xena]
"viva los alamos!": http://www.sensurroundstagings.com/html/ContentViva1.html
02:39:33 [GabeW]
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03:03:11 [GabeW]
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03:11:08 [sbp]
* sbp listens to "Rhapsody In Blue"
03:19:12 [GabeW]
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03:20:52 [AaronSw]
what do you think, sbp?
03:22:05 [sbp]
masterpiece, of course
03:22:11 [sbp]
* sbp is still listening to it
03:22:21 [sbp]
I'm writing something at the mo', and it's so inspirational
03:22:57 [AaronSw]
Nice.
03:22:58 [sbp]
* sbp put sit on again
03:23:55 [AaronSw]
By contrast, Strawberry Fields feels like you're tripping or something.
03:24:31 [BenSw]
Wohoo I solved an extreamly hard sokoban puzzle
03:38:48 [AaronSw]
I just found that my Number Theory teacher has written papers on election methods that have improvements over Condorcet. That's really cool.
03:46:06 [AaronSw]
Wow, Dvorak managed to diss Internet users, cluetrainers and those who are pushing for drug legalization in the same sentence.
03:47:12 [sbp]
what sentence would that be?
03:47:46 [AaronSw]
it's in http://www.pcmag.com/article/0,2997,s=1493&a=23131,00.asp
03:49:06 [AaronSw]
Chris Locke: "Dvorak's initially promising career writing for Datamation back in the 1900's was sadly cut short by his fondness for shooting heroin and circle jerks with young boys, spinning and chanting and hugging, all naked.
03:49:08 [AaronSw]
"
03:51:58 [AaronSw]
Whoa, Jack Valenti has a whole article dissing Larry Lessig. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62085-2002Feb24.html
03:53:24 [GabeW]
Jack Valenti isn't really part of the debate - he's just a tool
03:53:33 [AaronSw]
Of whom?
03:53:47 [GabeW]
uh, the movie industry
03:53:59 [GabeW]
THe point is that his comments aren't really substantive or meaningful
03:54:24 [AaronSw]
Um. He's said the most substantive things I've heard from his side.
03:54:39 [AaronSw]
What have you heard that's more substantive or meaningful?
03:54:52 [GabeW]
I think hillary rosen's arguments are at least more substantive
03:54:56 [AaronSw]
Hm.
03:54:59 [AaronSw]
All I've gotten is "Sharing is bad" and "Copy protection is good".
03:55:10 [GabeW]
yeah, thats pretty much the argument on their side
03:55:39 [GabeW]
I don't follow their rhetoric too closely
04:02:28 [wmf]
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04:02:47 [wmf]
looks like OmniCrashCatcher now supports Entourage
04:02:55 [AaronSw]
oh?
04:03:06 [wmf]
yeah, so now I can send in crash reports
04:03:46 [GabeW2]
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04:03:51 [AaronSw]
Ah, I got you now.
04:03:56 [GabeW]
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04:04:07 [AaronSw]
I thought you meant that it reported Entourage crashes for a second...
04:04:11 [GabeW2]
GabeW2 is now known as GabeW
04:04:35 [wmf]
it used to *cause* Entourage crashes, though
04:04:49 [GabeW]
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04:07:43 [wmf]
man, supercomputers are flaky
04:13:40 [AaronSw]
Guido: "I used to practice an improvised form of modern dance called contact improv on most Sundays, but I've only been back there once since Orlijn's birth."
04:13:45 [AaronSw]
- http://www.gnu-friends.org/story/2002/2/25/17162/1443
04:14:10 [sbp]
Mmmkay
04:14:40 [wmf]
heh
04:15:31 [AaronSw]
Heh, the wallops are funny.
04:16:14 [sbp]
paste, paste!
04:16:31 [AaronSw]
<starzz> For any of you who use Livejournal, I have created an OpenProjects.net community, visit http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=openprojects to join!
04:16:32 [AaronSw]
<MysticOne> You're listening to WOPN, the premier wallops station of the Open Projects Network. We bring you non-critical (but nevertheless interesting) news, messages, and random funnies! If you'd prefer not to listen to us, simply do /mode YourNick -w to turn off the receiver. Thank you for using the Open Projects Network.
04:16:50 [sbp]
heh, WOPN...
04:16:55 [AaronSw]
It wasn't that funny, I admit...
04:19:26 [AaronSw]
Oh, that's neat. You can do /ns instead of /msg nickserv
04:19:37 [wmf]
convenient
04:19:50 [sbp]
if you set an alias, anything's possible
04:20:08 [AaronSw]
Yeah, but this is built into the server. /ms and /cs work too.
04:20:09 [sbp]
I could set "/a" to do "/msg AaronSw bork.bork.bork"
04:20:15 [sbp]
in the server? neat
04:20:40 [wmf]
* wmf creates alt.fan.aaronsw.bork.bork.bork
04:20:52 [AaronSw]
Heh!
04:21:18 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw gets first post...
04:21:49 [AaronSw]
hey! what happened to alt.fan.wmf?
04:22:36 [sbp]
alt.fan.wmf? I'm still here
04:23:12 [sbp]
oh, you mean the group...
04:23:53 [AaronSw]
--
04:23:53 [AaronSw]
What groups are not appropriate to alt?
04:23:53 [AaronSw]
[...]
04:23:54 [AaronSw]
2. Vanity groups that only serve to fluff up your ego.
04:23:54 [AaronSw]
[...]
04:23:54 [AaronSw]
4. Joke or revenge groups
04:23:56 [AaronSw]
5. Groups that seem designed or destined to be offensive enough to start huge flame wars (e.g. alt.fan.hitler)
04:23:58 [AaronSw]
--
04:24:19 [wmf]
sorry, I'm correcting people on /. instead of paying attention
04:24:59 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw catches up on alt.adjective.noun.verb.verb.verb
04:26:16 [sbp]
heh, cool .sig: alt.Tim.Cramm.came.saw.conquered
04:26:27 [AaronSw]
Hmm, no alt.newsgroups.spam.spam.spam
04:28:42 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw makes notes to forward future sbp pedanticism to alt.sbp.pedantic.stop.stop.stop
04:29:16 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw wonders why he is still on the NASA email list for NASA run-ins with the law
04:29:18 [sbp]
heh, heh. That post was good, wunnit?
04:30:52 [sbp]
NASA list: I blame the emergence of weird new tofu flavours
04:31:51 [sbp]
due to the interconnectedness of all things, I just may be right
04:33:46 [sbp]
Hmm... most people seem to spell "interconnectedness" with a "Dirk" these days
04:51:55 [AaronSw]
@ http://www.chillingeffects.org/
04:51:59 [chumpster]
A: http://www.chillingeffects.org/ from AaronSw
04:52:15 [AaronSw]
A:|Chilling Effects: A Cease-and-Desist Notice Clearinghouse
04:52:16 [chumpster]
titled item A
04:52:59 [AaronSw]
A::"The website offers background material and explanations of the law for people whose websites deal with topics such as Fan Fiction, Copyright, Domain Names and Trademarks, Anonymous Speech, and Defamation."
04:52:59 [chumpster]
commented item A
04:53:41 [AaronSw]
A::via [Slashdot|http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/02/25/1732220&mode=thread&tid=123]. "If you have received a Cease & Desist, we invite you to add it to the database, where law students will analyze the legalese and annotate the C&Ds with Frequently Asked Questions and answers."
04:53:42 [chumpster]
commented item A
05:00:18 [AaronSw]
Heh: the silly student / he writes really bad haiku / readers all go mad
05:00:18 [AaronSw]
[ Parent ]
05:04:48 [GabeW]
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05:05:23 [AaronSw]
I really don't understand this Register publishing thing.
05:05:45 [AaronSw]
Like do they deliver the stories to Tom on floppy and he uploads them?
05:05:45 [wmf]
yeah
05:05:57 [wmf]
it doesn't really make any sense
05:15:16 [hazmat]
any zope users in the house?
05:15:18 [hazmat]
:-)
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05:33:34 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw uses zope sometimes
05:33:39 [AaronSw]
.google roy fielding dissertation
05:33:39 [xena]
roy fielding dissertation: http://www1.ics.uci.edu/~fielding
05:34:13 [AaronSw]
Ah, so it seems Roy's secret job is at Day Software: "World Standard Software for Business Unification"
05:34:27 [AaronSw]
@ http://www.day.com/en/company/media/2002/fielding.html
05:34:37 [chumpster]
B: Roy T. Fielding from AaronSw
05:34:57 [AaronSw]
B:|Roy T. Fielding, Ph.D, Joins Day As Chief Scientist
05:35:00 [chumpster]
titled item B
05:36:14 [AaronSw]
B::Day currently uses a "software bus architecture" called ContentBus which they say is "the most innovative foundation for future delivery of content oriented Web Services through support for SOAP and UDDI protocols."
05:36:16 [chumpster]
commented item B
05:36:39 [AaronSw]
B::Somehow I don't think he's going to let that last too long in it's current form. ;-)
05:36:40 [chumpster]
commented item B
05:40:21 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw finishes off the RDF Core minutes
05:41:57 [AaronSw]
Today was a great telecon, purely on entertainment value.
05:43:53 [AaronSw]
Did you know that France sounds like a fleet of killer lawnmowers? Or that Dan Connolly has a highly-tuned numeric army sense? What about the upcoming Pat Hayes pullstring-doll (complete with Model Theory)? And then there's the scene where Pat Hayes loses it and screams "I understand that, what I don't understand is why anyone outside of Dublin would want to do that!!"
05:45:01 [AaronSw]
@ http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/20020225-f2f/
05:45:05 [chumpster]
C: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/20020225-f2f/ from AaronSw
05:45:14 [AaronSw]
C:|On today's RDF Core telecon...
05:45:15 [chumpster]
titled item C
05:45:49 [AaronSw]
C::The hapless WG members attempt to dial in from France, only to find that they've turned into a busy signal, or a fleet of killer lawnmowers...
05:45:52 [chumpster]
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05:46:00 [AaronSw]
wha?
05:47:14 [chumpster]
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05:48:16 [AaronSw]
C::Dan Connolly takes control of the situation and shows off what he learned in the army with his unpatented "This is France to Zakim, what number did I say? Over." technique...
05:48:18 [chumpster]
commented item C
05:50:08 [AaronSw]
C::A sneak peek at the upcoming Pat Hayes Doll (complete with Model Theory) and Talking Telecon Dan Connolly (with popular phrases like: "Connolly, sorry I'm late."; "But that will destroy everything the Semantic Web Advanced Development Group has done!" and "Show me the testcases!"
05:50:11 [chumpster]
commented item C
05:50:52 [AaronSw]
C::Best of all, see Pat Hayes scream "I *understand* it, what I don't understand is why anyone outside of Dublin would want to do that!"
05:50:54 [chumpster]
commented item C
05:51:26 [AaronSw]
C::... All of this on today's RDF Core telecon. Check your local listings for showtimes and more information.
05:51:30 [chumpster]
commented item C
05:52:21 [hazmat]
AaronSw: i asked about the zope users cause i realized a dev version of the python repository, its a drop in product for zope, if you're interested in taking a look.
05:52:23 [hazmat]
gpl.
05:52:31 [sbp]
they should put in on radio
05:53:03 [hazmat]
s/realized/released.
05:54:27 [AaronSw]
hazmat, sure, got a pointer?
05:54:35 [AaronSw]
I'm sure tav would be interested too -- you should blog it.
05:54:51 [hazmat]
oudated docs here http://www.zope.org/Members/k_vertigo/Stories/Gideon
05:55:02 [AaronSw]
sbp, the telecon? they should have MP3s of it
05:55:02 [hazmat]
downloads here http://www.zope.org/Members/k_vertigo/Products/Gideon
05:55:13 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw secretly uploads some MP3s to AudioGalaxy
05:55:22 [hazmat]
the docs are semantically correct but they refer to an openacs implementation
05:55:40 [AaronSw]
Heh, a Python repository written in Tcl?
05:55:42 [AaronSw]
Or did you use PyWX
05:55:47 [hazmat]
both
05:56:02 [AaronSw]
At the megillah reading tonight we were joking that we didn't actually need to come, we could have just downloaded the MP3. ;-)
05:56:10 [hazmat]
this version is zope based, i stoped working on the openacs.
05:56:31 [hazmat]
cause lifes too short to deal with the bullshit
05:56:37 [AaronSw]
giggle: "MetaData aka Nobody expects the spanish inquisition"
05:56:44 [hazmat]
:-)
05:57:31 [AaronSw]
hazmat, so this is the thing that lets me do `gideon pyutil` and then downloads and compiles (if necessary) the mxBase python library, right?
05:57:33 [sbp]
there are two things that you have to remember about metadata. It's data about data, it's used all over the Web, and it's part of the Semantic Web... three! there are *three* things...
05:57:37 [hazmat]
i haven't touched the wiki since i started the zope version in december. i haven't worked on much recently i'm hoping releasing will give me some more motivation to finish it off.
05:58:00 [hazmat]
AaronSw: nope, this is the server when packages get uploaded.
05:58:11 [hazmat]
its about metadata :-)
05:58:14 [AaronSw]
sbp, there are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who can't.
05:58:29 [AaronSw]
hazmat, so it's a web-published database of Python packages?
05:58:59 [AaronSw]
ah, so it's the server side of the thing I want?
06:00:02 [hazmat]
AaronSw: its the server where things get uploaded, it exports some community features membership, rating ,etc. accepts a variety of metadata formats, and exports a client api
06:00:07 [AaronSw]
nice
06:00:10 [hazmat]
its also not even close to finished :-)
06:00:30 [AaronSw]
But, but, I thought Zope was so cool and superpowered that you finished things instantly! ;-)
06:00:41 [hazmat]
not when you write everrything from scratch
06:01:17 [hazmat]
i wrote everything from a userfolder to a news importer (rss) to the package management, to the metadata parsers ... to the ratings etc..
06:01:31 [hazmat]
mainly cause i wanted to release it gpl and to have everything work cohesively.
06:02:00 [hazmat]
its also got an older version of the event channel, and some validation stuff, and i'll shut up now :-)
06:02:34 [AaronSw]
Heh, heh
06:12:41 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw is away: sleep
06:28:21 [sbp]
Gotta run
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08:34:12 [hazmat]
.time pst
08:34:12 [xena]
Feb. 26, 2002 12:35 am US/Pacific
08:48:47 [hazmat]
.time pst
08:48:47 [xena]
Feb. 26, 2002 12:50 am US/Pacific
09:33:39 [hazmat]
.time pst
09:33:40 [xena]
Feb. 26, 2002 1:35 am US/Pacific
12:38:23 [wendy]
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12:38:35 [wendy]
sbp?
12:39:38 [wendy]
hmmm. aaron?
12:39:49 [wendy]
i've got some questions on the earl model.
13:31:03 [wendy]
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14:09:36 [AaronSw]
snow!
14:25:48 [monokrom]
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14:49:37 [AaronSw]
AaronSw has changed the topic to: "Snow!" and other observations from a purple grape.
14:49:54 [AaronSw]
AaronSw has changed the topic to: "Snow!" and other observations from a purple grape.
14:52:53 [AaronSw]
woo! we're going to sing golden triples
15:03:34 [wendy]
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15:45:14 [AaronSw]
hey wendy
15:45:23 [wendy]
* wendy waves
16:34:52 [AaronSw]
ugh, no singing
16:35:32 [wendy]
i promise i won't sing.
16:37:17 [AaronSw]
Heh, no -- we were going to sing at the RDF Core F2F, but didn't get to it.
16:37:35 [AaronSw]
lyrics: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Oct/0103
16:37:38 [wendy]
oh bummer...yes I heard about the song.
16:37:41 [wendy]
libby mentioned it.
16:37:58 [AaronSw]
Ah.
16:44:06 [wendy]
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17:36:31 [sbp]
argh, just missed wendy
17:50:38 [Morbus]
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17:51:57 [sbp]
Hi there Morbus
18:06:28 [GabeW]
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18:13:53 [AaronSw]
lol: alt.fan.moh-kohn
18:13:56 [Morbus]
hey there. gonna be gone all this afternoon too.
18:14:02 [Morbus]
rebuilding a new webserver
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19:08:21 [kmacleod]
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19:08:29 [kmacleod]
SWHACK!
19:08:33 [kmacleod]
oh, hey
19:09:00 [GabeW]
swack!
19:09:21 [Morbus]
hey guys.
19:09:24 [Morbus]
i'm rebuilding a server.
19:09:27 [Morbus]
wish i could chat.
19:09:29 [Morbus]
foo and all.
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21:07:24 [sbp]
* sbp waves
21:07:33 [kmacleod]
Bill Kearney has bugged out on the RSS 1.0 generatorAgent field
21:07:44 [bijan]
Hey sean, ken.
21:07:50 [kmacleod]
hey bij!
21:08:02 [kmacleod]
hey sbp!
21:08:48 [Morbus]
kmacleod: why do you say that?
21:09:31 [kmacleod]
Kearney has it in mind that the generatorAgent RSS 1.0 proposal is whacked in comparison to the XML comment proposal being used by RSS 0.9x
21:09:41 [Morbus]
... why?
21:09:44 [kmacleod]
and is not at all interested in persuing it
21:11:12 [kmacleod]
his primary concern seems to be that a URI is not a suitable alternative to a parsable string of "PACKAGE/VERSION"
21:11:23 [bijan]
er...
21:11:41 [bijan]
Them unparseable URIs are SUCH a pain!
21:11:44 [kmacleod]
I note that syndic8, as the immediate user of this information, already contains out-of-band information based on the software package
21:11:48 [sbp]
which is why URIs failed to create a hypermedia web with over a hundred billion identified pages. Oh, hang on...
21:12:26 [kmacleod]
in essence, tho, he's just not choosing to pursue it himself
21:13:01 [kmacleod]
ie. if RDF toolkit users want to have generatorAgent info, it's up to "somebody else" to evangelize it
21:13:45 [bijan]
sean: did you get my note about closed-worldness?
21:13:57 [sbp]
ah, yes
21:14:23 [sbp]
I don't know enough about the terminology to argue about it, so I'll just assume you're correct :-)
21:14:30 [kmacleod]
http://mail.bitsko.slc.ut.us/~ken/ga.txt
21:14:31 [bijan]
Wise.
21:15:34 [kmacleod]
Kearney also seems to be of the opinion that it is the RSS feed provider, rather than the toolkit vender, who should immediately start using the new field
21:15:55 [sbp]
actually, I do agree with what you wrote. But I'm just not sure whether the phrase is used mainly in that sense, because I haven't studied enough logic texts
21:16:10 [sbp]
heh:-
21:16:14 [sbp]
.google "Closed World"
21:16:19 [bijan]
CWH doesn't show up in logic texts.
21:16:20 [sbp]
oh... no xena
21:16:24 [bijan]
But in prolog ones.
21:16:41 [sbp]
well, the top result for "Closed World" is http://infomesh.net/2001/cwm/ so perhaps I *am* an authority
21:16:47 [bijan]
And that is how it's used. Period. Not "mainly", but *period*.
21:16:50 [bijan]
No,you aren't :)
21:16:58 [sbp]
hey, don't argue with Google! :-)
21:17:13 [bijan]
Have you read paul ford googlebot story?
21:17:15 [bijan]
On ftrain?
21:17:22 [sbp]
Hmm... nope. URI?
21:17:22 [bijan]
"I'm google for googlebots!"
21:17:27 [bijan]
ftrain.com
21:17:43 [bijan]
Oops, it's not longer top story.
21:17:56 [bijan]
here: http://www.ftrain.com/robot_exclusion_protocol.html
21:18:11 [bijan]
``I am Google! I find many good things. I find that pair of underwear with the little dice printed all over them.
21:18:18 [bijan]
And I watch the tape of you with the life-sized Stallman puppet. These are good unique things. Many keywords and links!
21:18:26 [bijan]
My masters will say 'much good job, little robot!' Many searchers will find happy links of Stallman puppet see you! Ahhhh.''
21:18:40 [kmacleod]
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21:19:02 [sbp]
heh, that's quite neat
21:19:06 [bijan]
Yep.
21:19:13 [bijan]
Paul is often hilarious.
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22:20:01 [bijan]
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22:20:20 [bijan]
sbp, you around?
22:26:11 [Morbus]
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22:32:40 [sbp]
* sbp waves
22:34:49 [bijan]
Ah!
22:35:01 [bijan]
some questions
22:35:26 [bijan]
How does one *stop* concluding instantiations of []s in consequents?
22:37:46 [sbp]
pardon?
22:41:22 [bijan]
I have: {:x :parent :y} log:implies {:y :child [:parent :y].}.
22:41:33 [bijan]
ANd :jane :parent :janeII.
22:41:42 [bijan]
When should inferencing stop?
22:42:12 [bijan]
I should be able to generate fresh bnodes indefinitely.
22:43:00 [sbp]
Hmm... interesting question
22:43:16 [sbp]
I presume that once you have one bNode, you should stop
22:43:24 [bijan]
Oh, what does log:uri mean?
22:43:28 [bijan]
Espeically if the subject is a literal?
22:43:30 [sbp]
it's the uri of a node
22:43:36 [sbp]
if the subject is a literal, it's void
22:43:43 [bijan]
Hmm.
22:43:46 [sbp]
since the domain of log:uri is rawtype:URI
22:43:51 [bijan]
void as in ''?
22:43:55 [sbp]
it's a node test, not a resource test...
22:43:55 [bijan]
Is it a string?
22:44:12 [sbp]
well, void as in either "can't match, query fails", or "empty string"
22:44:15 [sbp]
I think the forme
22:44:18 [sbp]
yep, it's a literal
22:44:18 [bijan]
Ehh!
22:44:26 [bijan]
It can be *either*?
22:44:33 [sbp]
<http://www.w3.org/">http://www.w3.org/> log:uri "http://www.w3.org/" . should test true
22:44:41 [bijan]
Right.
22:44:53 [sbp]
"" log:uri :x . should fail
22:45:04 [sbp]
_:b log:uri :x . should fail
22:45:14 [sbp]
this log:forAll :x .
22:45:36 [bijan]
<http://www.w3.org> log:uri :u. :u string:startsWith "http:". ? (given bindings,e tc.)
22:45:36 [sbp]
either: well, it's up to your implementation :-)
22:45:50 [GabeW]
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22:45:55 [sbp]
:u with be "http://www.w3.org", and the starts with test will pass
22:48:05 [bijan]
If I have [a :foo]. and [a :foo], are these two or one?
22:48:11 [bijan]
Two formulae or one?
22:49:00 [sbp]
they can't necessarily be merged, if that's what you mean
22:49:18 [bijan]
Ouch.
22:49:19 [sbp]
so you have to treat them as different statements
22:49:22 [bijan]
Skolem constants prolly.
23:06:04 [bijan]
Ok, slightly different quetsion, if I have [a :foo] in a context, should I infer a [a :foo]?
23:08:16 [bijan]
I.e., in an *inference* can I merge?
23:16:19 [bijan]
* bijan is going to assume so
23:16:49 [bijan]
Oh, [] in antecedents.
23:16:49 [Morbus]
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23:16:54 [bijan]
Does that even make sense?
23:17:30 [Morbus]
* Morbus dance
23:17:40 [Morbus]
* Morbus prance
23:17:42 [Morbus]
* Morbus has bugs in his underpants
23:18:34 [Morbus]
bijan: i know your nick, but not you. who are you?
23:18:48 [bijan]
Bijan Parsia.
23:18:58 [bijan]
Er..if that helps any :)
23:19:11 [Morbus]
mmkay. um.
23:19:16 [Morbus]
what do you do? <g>
23:19:19 [sbp]
* sbp catches up
23:19:23 [bijan]
google me.
23:19:45 [Morbus]
.google bijan parsia naked pictures
23:19:48 [sbp]
I treat bNodes in queries exactly the same as universals, but I don't match the variables at the end
23:19:53 [Morbus]
what?! no xena.
23:19:58 [sbp]
* sbp wonders how a picture can be naked
23:20:10 [bijan]
It doesn't have any clothes on, d'uh.
23:20:21 [sbp]
silly me
23:20:23 [bijan]
Sean, I don't understand that.
23:20:27 [Morbus]
* Morbus downloads latest portfolio
23:20:40 [bijan]
What's "exactly the same" about them?
23:21:01 [bijan]
If, at point of query, I generate a *fresh* id, it will never match.
23:21:17 [bijan]
granted, named (er) anoymous nodes will be different.
23:21:25 [sbp]
why would you generate a fresh ID? you should preserve them
23:21:34 [bijan]
Hmm?
23:21:45 [bijan]
[a :foo].
23:21:54 [sbp]
bNodes are odd in that respect. They query like universals, but they have to be preserved like ordinary constants
23:21:59 [bijan]
query([a :foo]).
23:22:20 [Morbus]
bijan: did you know there's a perfume/fragrance named after you?
23:22:28 [bijan]
Yes.
23:22:38 [Morbus]
you write for ora? cool, me too.
23:22:50 [sbp]
in that case, you query for "?x a :Foo" and return all of the results. It acts like a universal
23:23:09 [bijan]
* bijan doesn't know who morbus is, and after the perfume crack, isn't sure he *wants* to :)
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23:23:20 [bijan]
Arrgh!
23:23:23 [bijan]
That's terrible.
23:23:27 [Morbus]
heh, heh.
23:23:43 [deltab]
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23:24:06 [sbp]
terrible: well, that's as much as I can gather. There have been plenty of discussions, and there's also the MT
23:24:20 [bijan]
Ok, I have a rule {whatever} log:implies {[a :foo]}.
23:24:21 [sbp]
but the model does seem odd. TimBL even noted that somewhere
23:24:43 [sbp]
in this case, you don't match up the bNodes
23:24:46 [bijan]
When I compile the rule, it basically comes out in the following form.
23:24:59 [bijan]
query(whatever) (ifTrue then)
23:25:16 [sbp]
"A is true for some objectfor which here we use B. This concept is buggy." - http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/log
23:25:18 [bijan]
not query(something about the bnode) (ifTrue then)
23:25:31 [sbp]
yep
23:25:44 [bijan]
Then assert [a :foo] (with fresh id).
23:25:57 [bijan]
I'me not sure about hte second query.
23:26:17 [bijan]
Right now, i'm thinking to check if there's *any* bnode with that property.
23:26:19 [Morbus]
ack! i can't believe the new extensis isn't built for os x.
23:27:03 [bijan]
Would it be correct to add [a :foo] if there were a :a a :foo in the target context?
23:27:06 [sbp]
bijan: I'm not sure that you have to assert fresh IDs each time
23:27:17 [sbp]
I'm pretty sure that you shouldn't, in fact
23:27:28 [bijan]
if not, the music example from the other day will fail.
23:27:38 [sbp]
oh... good point
23:28:03 [bijan]
Well, "fail"...not do what you expected.
23:28:09 [bijan]
What you expected was WRONG WRONG WRONG.
23:28:10 [bijan]
However.
23:28:34 [bijan]
It's confusing definite descriptions and existential quantifiers.
23:28:41 [bijan]
(er..what I had was wrong too)
23:28:47 [bijan]
(there should be *one* result)
23:28:54 [bijan]
Not 27 (or however many)
23:31:49 [sbp]
sbp has changed the topic to: "WRONG WRONG WRONG" - excerpted from 'Observations of Bijan Parsia', available in all good bookshops
23:33:34 [sbp]
xena is still about...
23:33:38 [sbp]
-> *xena* google blargh
23:33:45 [sbp]
<xena> blargh: http://luciana.weblogger.com.br
23:34:07 [sbp]
-
23:34:07 [sbp]
xena is xena@mewtwo.espnow.com * xena
23:34:07 [sbp]
xena on #lsdevteam
23:34:08 [sbp]
[...]
23:34:14 [Morbus]
<Morbus> ->xena: google where are you?
23:34:14 [Morbus]
<xena> where are you: http://www.yahoo.com
23:34:18 [Morbus]
well, the bitch!
23:34:22 [sbp]
heh, heh
23:44:01 [Galahad]
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23:44:17 [Morbus]
.google her stalwart companian
23:44:18 [Galahad]
her stalwart companian: http://home.iprimus.com.au/crothwell/books.html
23:44:21 [Morbus]
mmhmm
23:45:53 [Galahad]
Galahad is now known as xena
23:48:35 [bijan]
sean, did you tell me whether {[a :foo]} is matched by :a a :foo in a query?
23:54:51 [sbp]
I believe that I did
23:55:06 [bijan]
Did you really say, "Yes"?
23:55:18 [sbp]
yep
23:55:23 [bijan]
Ouch.
23:55:34 [Morbus]
* Morbus rolls his shirt sleeves up.
23:56:04 [bijan]
But that would mean that, {whatever} log:implies {[a :foo]} would be prevented from concluding [a :foo] if there is an :a a :foo.
23:56:14 [bijan]
Which means EG wouldn't hold.