IRC log of swhack on 2002-02-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:00:36 [bijan]

Hmm. I'm not actually measuring some things correctly.

00:00:52 [bijan]

That seems somewhat dependan on the math lib

00:03:20 [sbp]

long time: I could time it, but I'm trying to time Eep at the mo'. It's being a bit barfy

00:05:19 [bijan]

Heh.

00:05:50 [bijan]

I'd really ahve to compile that sucker by hand. I'm not sure I *want* to :)

00:06:44 [sbp]

heh, heh

00:17:57 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw waves

00:18:02 [bijan]

hey aaron.

00:18:11 [AaronSw]

Hey bijan

00:19:03 [AaronSw]

Hm, lots of new people

00:20:09 [AaronSw]

I'm in the middle of "The Star Fraction" now, so I'll catch up on stuff later.

00:20:13 [bijan]

oh aaron.

00:20:19 [AaronSw]

yeah?

00:20:24 [bijan]

Any long running n3 things not involving builtins?

00:21:13 [bijan]

* bijan still looking for tests.

00:21:24 [AaronSw]

None come to mind.

00:21:55 [bijan]

Oh well.

00:22:51 [AaronSw]

Wow, Lessig wrote me a personal thank you note! That's awesome.

00:22:59 [bijan]

For?

00:23:24 [AaronSw]

I guess it's sort of a secret.

00:23:39 [AaronSw]

Some RDF stuff I did for him...

00:24:31 [AaronSw]

Ooh, neat: http://apple.slashdot.org/

00:27:23 [sbp]

* sbp returns

00:30:02 [sbp]

1.52 0.11 for that test? Hmm... something must have borked

00:31:23 [bijan]

1.52?

00:31:49 [sbp]

seconds to parse the NTriples files (800KB), seconds to perform the query

00:32:16 [bijan]

Which ntriples file. the geo thing?

00:32:35 [sbp]

yeah. I converted it to NTriples since I didn't want to crash test my N3 parser... :-)

00:32:40 [bijan]

Heheheh.

00:32:45 [bijan]

Got ya beat *there*.

00:34:42 [sbp]

wow! it wasn't kidding!

00:34:43 [sbp]

1.42999994755

00:34:43 [sbp]

0.160000085831

00:34:53 [bijan]

This is eep?

00:34:56 [sbp]

yep

00:35:00 [bijan]

Did you just smoke both me and cwm?

00:35:01 [bijan]

You pig.

00:35:05 [sbp]

bwahahahaha!

00:35:15 [sbp]

I think the problem with rm's test is IDLE

00:35:26 [sbp]

if IDLE has to print something really huge, it just stands there

00:35:37 [sbp]

OTOH, I might be wrong - it might be a problem with the inference module

00:35:43 [sbp]

but the query module is... well, rather fast

00:36:07 [sbp]

* sbp goes to get a drink

00:38:24 [sbp]

Hmm... and the output file is 0.99MB

00:38:32 [sbp]

Python is an awesome thing

00:38:57 [bijan]

Hmm.

00:39:03 [bijan]

Something seems up with that.

00:39:27 [sbp]

I can post you the data, if you like

00:39:34 [bijan]

sure.

00:40:11 [bijan]

What is your query engine doing, btw?

00:40:26 [bijan]

I guess if it's just a loop over the list, that could be nippy.

00:42:19 [sbp]

it's querying for the triples, plus matching the variables

00:42:26 [sbp]

[sent, BWT]

00:42:32 [sbp]

or BTW...

00:42:37 [bijan]

"querying...*plus* mathcing?"

00:42:45 [sbp]

yeah

00:42:57 [sbp]

?x :y ?z is not the same as ?x :y ?x

00:44:24 [bijan]

ouch, y'know, *that's* something that bites me.

00:44:27 [bijan]

I think.

00:44:35 [sbp]

what's that?

00:44:50 [sbp]

oh, does it not match the variables?

00:45:04 [bijan]

er..hmm.

00:45:46 [sbp]

test case: store: :p :q :p . :p :q :r . query: { ?x :q ?x } log:implies { ?x :q ?x } .

00:45:47 [bijan]

in {?x :parent ?z. ?y :parent ?z} => {?x :co-parent ?y} and

00:46:06 [bijan]

:bob :parent :sally. :mary :parent :sally.

00:46:13 [bijan]

I will get that bob and mary are their own co-parents

00:47:03 [sbp]

Ugh

00:47:04 [bijan]

Oh, this isnt' the inference? This is the query?

00:47:17 [sbp]

yep, just the query

00:47:38 [bijan]

D'oh!

00:47:43 [bijan]

I thought this was the *inference*.

00:47:46 [sbp]

heh, heh

00:47:53 [sbp]

I'll benchmark the inference...

00:48:05 [AlexMax]

AlexMax has quit ("ButchX-p6 by conio Accept no limitations")

00:50:02 [bijan]

*Much* less than a second.

00:50:08 [sbp]

Doing query test...

00:50:08 [sbp]

0.160000085831

00:50:08 [sbp]

Doing inference test...

00:50:08 [sbp]

0.27999997139

00:50:12 [bijan]

Hmm.

00:50:33 [bijan]

How many hits do you get?

00:50:41 [sbp]

still pretty quick. that's using infer.filter, which is the main inference function

00:50:42 [sbp]

hits?

00:50:47 [sbp]

1211

00:50:54 [bijan]

I get 1211

00:50:58 [bijan]

From your query.

00:50:59 [sbp]

7266 1211 1211

00:51:18 [sbp]

7266 is the length of the input, in triples

00:51:52 [bijan]

0.02 for the query

00:52:00 [bijan]

For some varient of the query.

00:52:27 [bijan]

7269 for the triples

00:52:39 [sbp]

ooh, slight discrepancy

00:52:45 [bijan]

The rules.

00:53:21 [bijan]

Still.

00:53:37 [bijan]

I'm not sure what your inference thing is.

00:53:44 [bijan]

Are you doing the rule we used?

00:53:47 [sbp]

yep

00:54:00 [sbp]

it does { ?x :blargh ?y } => { ?x :blargh ?y } .

00:54:13 [bijan]

Do you optimize for that/

00:54:13 [bijan]

?

00:54:32 [bijan]

Where do you accumulate results?

00:54:42 [bijan]

* bijan suspects that writing to rdf_db is *really* killing him.

00:54:48 [sbp]

no - it's pretty general. But then, once you have a query engine, it's just a matter of plugging the variables back in at the other end

00:55:01 [sbp]

accumulate results?

00:55:17 [sbp]

it can print them out as a Python list, or as NTriples

00:55:25 [bijan]

Ok, so in a list.

00:55:33 [bijan]

yes, accumulating in a list is faster for me, I'll bet.

00:55:40 [bijan]

Writing each to the database is slow.

00:55:48 [bijan]

Interleaving the writes is prolly slow.

00:56:04 [sbp]

yeah... there are a number of reasons why it would be slower

00:56:39 [bijan]

I wonder why CWM is slower.

00:56:42 [bijan]

So much slower.

00:56:48 [bijan]

And I wonder if this is a corner case where you do well.

00:56:56 [bijan]

Or whether you do well in general.

00:56:58 [sbp]

the new CWM? Tim is interning formulae now

00:57:07 [sbp]

well in general: I doubt it :-)

00:57:18 [sbp]

I'm just trying to set up rm's test case right now...

00:57:32 [bijan]

And I have to run! Hurry up!

00:57:52 [sbp]

I'm trying, I'm trying!

00:59:17 [sbp]

it seems to just sit there

00:59:22 [sbp]

let's reduce the test case a bit...

01:00:18 [bijan]

Hmm. I bet you have to traverse the list for each additional statement?

01:00:25 [bijan]

You might be better off shrinkin the rules.

01:00:46 [sbp]

yep, I just did... still running

01:00:48 [bijan]

If you have big_list_of_triples (datastore)

01:01:05 [bijan]

Then for each antecedent statemetn: search list until get hit.

01:01:21 [bijan]

And having to start over if you get a miss down the line...

01:01:24 [bijan]

yeah, that will be slow.

01:01:48 [sbp]

Hmm...

01:02:18 [bijan]

(Assuming that I have your inference strategy correct)

01:02:25 [bijan]

even if that's fast for the once through case.

01:02:52 [sbp]

I added one triple to the ante and desc, and it added a second to the query...

01:02:57 [sbp]

s/query/inference/

01:03:08 [bijan]

Which one?

01:03:12 [bijan]

music one?

01:03:14 [bijan]

Or the geo one?

01:03:16 [sbp]

yep

01:03:18 [sbp]

the music one

01:03:28 [sbp]

ah, add one more and it just sits there

01:03:32 [bijan]

bug?

01:03:39 [sbp]

it seems to be

01:03:47 [bijan]

* bijan is disappointed.

01:04:04 [bijan]

* bijan shifts to being superior because of correctness, rather than performance.

01:04:29 [sbp]

difficult to tell, though. The new line is a ?x ?y ?z type of thing, which might be causing it grief - but it already had one to handle

01:04:30 [bijan]

Is it any three triples or a specific third triple?

01:04:35 [sbp]

correctness: heh, heh

01:04:49 [sbp]

dunno, this one is still hanging. I'll cut it and try again

01:04:50 [bijan]

Oh, I'm *creaming* you on documentation!

01:05:05 [sbp]

yeah. There isn't any Eep documentation :-)

01:05:09 [bijan]

And Looks. I'm Much Cuter. ;)

01:05:11 [bijan]

Yes, I know :)

01:05:17 [bijan]

That's why I'm killing you :)

01:05:22 [sbp]

heh, heh

01:05:35 [sbp]

but "Cuter"? nah

01:05:42 [bijan]

*Definitely*.

01:05:44 [bijan]

No question.

01:05:48 [bijan]

Everyone agrees!

01:05:53 [sbp]

I don't

01:05:58 [sbp]

so it can't be everyone

01:06:02 [bijan]

"Everyone who counts agrees!"

01:06:12 [sbp]

I count! 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7...

01:06:16 [bijan]

You do too, actually; you just lie about it.

01:06:28 [sbp]

Perhaps

01:06:29 [bijan]

ok I've really got to run. ta

01:06:32 [sbp]

c'ya!

01:06:36 [bijan]

bijan has quit ("Leaving")

01:09:57 [sbp]

ooh, it seems to be a problem in the query module, in fact

01:10:42 [sbp]

without this one particular line, it's really quick:-

01:10:43 [sbp]

Doing parse test...

01:10:43 [sbp]

0.0499999523163 134

01:10:43 [sbp]

Doing query test...

01:10:43 [sbp]

1.05000007153 134

01:12:33 [sbp]

ooh, it just did a slightly different test in about half a minute:-

01:12:33 [sbp]

Doing query test...

01:12:33 [sbp]

36.4199999571 134

01:13:52 [sbp]

and again, with a proper "length of results" count: 36.25 31

01:14:38 [sbp]

ah, I have an idea

01:17:19 [sbp]

* sbp tries it with a new cp function

01:17:44 [sbp]

Pff, slower: 37.6799999475 31

01:20:45 [sbp]

Hmm... it's the last bit of a particular function that's taking so long

01:21:12 [sbp]

argh! no wonder

01:21:12 [sbp]

1014513652.06 265856

01:21:32 [sbp]

265856 cartesian paths! not efficient going through all of them...

01:22:00 [sbp]

s/paths/products/

01:25:23 [sbp]

so, it is the cp function doing it... ugh

01:27:54 [sbp]

ooh, with the new function, I get a MemoryError

01:27:56 [sbp]

that's a new one

01:30:20 [sbp]

bijan will be so happy :-)

01:34:45 [sbp]

heh, the test that crashes out all of the time is trying to compute 35,624,704 cartesian products

01:40:11 [sbp]

* sbp mails bijan the good news

01:42:29 [sbp]

heh, heh:-

01:42:30 [sbp]

File "query.py", line 61, in xtquery

01:42:30 [sbp]

if n > 500000: raise "You want me to find "+str(n)+" cartesian products? Pff"

01:42:30 [sbp]

You want me to find 35624704 cartesian products? Pff

01:46:38 [AaronSw]

http://www.python.org/doc/current/lib/profile.html

01:47:28 [sbp]

ooh, neat

01:47:42 [sbp]

* sbp says "ooh" a lot lately

01:47:57 [AaronSw]

Me too, I think.

01:48:10 [sbp]

'tis a good word

01:48:35 [AaronSw]

Heh, google bought the word "python" on Google.

01:48:46 [AaronSw]

--

01:48:47 [AaronSw]

python=$10K?

01:48:47 [AaronSw]

Enter Google's programming contest

01:48:47 [AaronSw]

Win fame, fortune and a trip to CA

01:48:47 [AaronSw]

google.com/programming-contest/

01:48:48 [AaronSw]

--

01:48:59 [sbp]

heh

01:50:03 [AaronSw]

They have a lot of different versions of it, but they don't seem to have bought other languages.

01:50:26 [AaronSw]

Ah, they bought C++

02:09:19 [bijan]

bijan (bparsia@login6.isis.unc.edu) has joined #swhack

02:09:35 [sbp]

uh oh

02:09:44 [bijan]

I came on to giggle!

02:09:50 [sbp]

damnit!

02:10:13 [bijan]

I am curious about the huge discrepancy in your times :)

02:10:24 [sbp]

me too

02:10:45 [sbp]

well, for smaller queries, you don't get many results, so it's stunningly fast

02:11:00 [bijan]

Eh, that alone isn't good reasoning.

02:11:10 [sbp]

but for larger ones, you get more results... for each result, your cp value goes up by the length of that result

02:11:18 [sbp]

it skyrockets quite quickly

02:11:33 [bijan]

"many results", you mean consequences per application?

02:11:35 [sbp]

goes up: as in *multiplied* by the length

02:11:47 [sbp]

no, not consequences...

02:11:51 [sbp]

this is in the query module

02:12:03 [bijan]

I don't understand.

02:12:08 [bijan]

The geo example had lots of results...

02:12:13 [bijan]

OHOHOH.

02:12:17 [bijan]

YOu mean anding the results/

02:12:19 [bijan]

?

02:12:34 [bijan]

(That's the same as what I meant by consequences0

02:12:49 [sbp]

Hm... yeah, I guess so

02:12:53 [bijan]

(A query is just an inference to the matches in the antecedent)

02:13:10 [bijan]

Like the sample one you gave.

02:13:30 [bijan]

So, filtering a list is fast.

02:13:40 [bijan]

(Hmm. I wonder if list comprehensions would be nippy..)

02:14:00 [bijan]

SOrry.

02:14:07 [sbp]

well, it just performs simple matching, and then ponders over the paths through each of the results

02:14:08 [bijan]

Say I have a query statemetn A.

02:14:13 [sbp]

O.K.

02:14:33 [bijan]

To match A against the store, I wall the list examining each statement.

02:14:42 [bijan]

If it matches, it goes into the results.

02:14:48 [bijan]

When I read the end of the list I'm done.

02:14:49 [bijan]

Yes?

02:15:11 [sbp]

yep

02:15:13 [bijan]

If I have two query statements, A and B

02:15:19 [bijan]

I wall the list gathering all the As?

02:15:25 [bijan]

Then walk the list gathering all the Bs?

02:15:31 [sbp]

[(a results), (b results)]

02:15:36 [sbp]

and then find the paths

02:15:58 [bijan]

"paths'?

02:16:13 [sbp]

cartesian product

02:16:28 [sbp]

here's how I caught it:-

02:16:28 [sbp]

for item in all: n *= len(item)

02:16:29 [sbp]

if n > 500000: raise "You want me to find "+str(n)+" cartesian products? Pff"

02:16:41 [sbp]

"all" is the list of results, per above

02:16:49 [sbp]

[n is initially 1]

02:17:12 [bijan]

Hmm. I'm not sure I understand.

02:17:16 [bijan]

Which N hurts?

02:17:25 [bijan]

The length of the query? (A & B &...n)

02:17:39 [bijan]

Or the length of the results (rA & rB &....)

02:17:45 [sbp]

the product of the lengths of the items in the results

02:17:55 [sbp]

(rA * rB *....)

02:17:59 [bijan]

Ah.

02:18:09 [bijan]

Because you cross compare all the permutaitons.

02:18:14 [sbp]

yep

02:18:20 [bijan]

*that's* dumb.

02:18:23 [sbp]

yep

02:18:45 [sbp]

rather: that's *dumb*.

02:19:24 [bijan]

Ouch. i"m trying to generate a simple unification algo for that.

02:19:34 [bijan]

For your walk the list technqiue.

02:19:36 [bijan]

Not trivial.

02:19:46 [bijan]

especially without backtracking.

02:20:03 [sbp]

indeed. the approach seemed very intuitive to me, but I didn't consider what'd happen when I scaled it up a little bit... :-)

02:21:56 [sbp]

the only way to beat it would be to totally scrap the algorithm, and start again

02:22:05 [bijan]

Well, yes.

02:23:06 [bijan]

Yay! You're again behind me in completeness too! :)

02:23:45 [sbp]

I'm a fair way behind in all places... except for small queries :-)

02:24:00 [bijan]

Well, actually, there too.

02:24:07 [bijan]

Sorry.

02:24:12 [sbp]

how's that?

02:24:38 [bijan]

Well, you kill me if I use an n3 rule writing to a "heavy" context.

02:24:56 [bijan]

But if I use a findall I'm 2 order of mags faster :)

02:25:56 [sbp]

* sbp ponders re-writing vs. scrapping

02:26:17 [bijan]

In general, SWI queries are going to be reasonable quick.

02:26:49 [bijan]

I mean, I don't *have* to use an N3 rule to find all the foos that match bar.

02:26:55 [bijan]

That's part of the reason to do in SWI :)

02:27:07 [sbp]

yep... I can see the logic behind using Prolog

02:27:16 [bijan]

SO that I can write prolog programs to manipulate the n3 store.

02:27:59 [bijan]

Come over to the dark side.

02:28:06 [bijan]

Learn prolog...

02:28:09 [bijan]

Work on mine...

02:28:42 [sbp]

by the time I would have learned Prolog to the extent that I can help you with CWMClone, you'll have finished it and gone on to better things

02:29:16 [bijan]

Ha! I doubt it :)

02:29:26 [bijan]

But I would be happy to turn it over to you ;)

02:29:37 [bijan]

Hey, your other choice is to rewrite query...

02:29:47 [bijan]

Learning prolog is looking good, eh?

02:30:20 [sbp]

blargh. I suppose. Any good manuals online?

02:30:26 [bijan]

Yes.

02:30:34 [sbp]

.google Prolog primer

02:30:35 [Galahad]

Prolog primer: http://www.ibc.wustl.edu/moirai/cs_magenta/prolog.html

02:30:36 [bijan]

SEveral *Excellent* tutorials, actually.

02:31:33 [sbp]

well, that one is weak

02:31:37 [bijan]

I link to a few from my first article

02:31:42 [sbp]

.google Prolog tutorial, that bijan approves

02:31:43 [Galahad]

no results found.

02:31:46 [sbp]

ah, good point

02:33:32 [bijan]

Hmm. WHy do you get the cartesian product?

02:34:08 [sbp]

so that I can match the variables against all of the paths

02:34:24 [bijan]

Ok, A & B

02:34:37 [bijan]

I'm walking for A, find a match.

02:34:42 [bijan]

Why not check B right then?

02:34:47 [bijan]

Will that help?

02:35:04 [sbp]

yeah, but that'd be a totally different way of querying

02:35:13 [sbp]

in fact, it's the original way that I wrote it, as I recall

02:35:22 [bijan]

Sure, it's a kind of unification.

02:35:28 [bijan]

Why did you abandon it?

02:35:50 [sbp]

the latter way seemed easier (it was much easier to program), and faster for the small tests that I ran

02:36:36 [bijan]

Well, what about filter on A, then walk rA to see if B matches?

02:36:49 [sbp]

Hmm...

02:36:49 [bijan]

I don't understand the "paths' :)

02:37:05 [sbp]

perhaps I could print out debug information for a sample query?

02:37:08 [bijan]

The cartesian product doesn't maek *sense*

02:37:16 [bijan]

Sure.

02:38:46 [sbp]

the query:-

02:39:50 [sbp]

print tquery(eep.parse("""?x <#sonOf> ?y .

02:39:50 [sbp]

?y <#sonOf> ?z ."""),

02:39:50 [sbp]

eep.parse("""<#Bob> <#sonOf> <#Fred> .

02:39:50 [sbp]

<#Fred> <#sonOf> <#John> .

02:39:50 [sbp]

<#John> <#sonOf> <#Wayne> ."""), 1)

02:40:23 [bijan]

Ok, can, both match all of them.

02:40:46 [bijan]

You store bindings with the results?

02:41:15 [bijan]

i.e., {(?x, #bob) (?y, #Fred)...

02:42:01 [sbp]

argh, sorry, I got disconnected

02:42:03 [sbp]

actually, that's not a good example because the query triples are basically identical

02:42:04 [bijan]

Or somthing.

02:42:06 [sbp]

here's a better one:-

02:42:12 [sbp]

print tquery(eep.parse("?x <#sonOf> ?y .\n?x <#name> ?z ."),

02:42:12 [sbp]

eep.parse("""<#Bob> <#sonOf> <#Fred> .

02:42:12 [sbp]

<#Fred> <#sonOf> <#John> .

02:42:13 [sbp]

<#Bob> <#name> "Bob" .

02:42:15 [sbp]

<#Fred> <#name> "Fred" ."""), 1)

02:42:29 [sbp]

and the debug information:-

02:42:29 [sbp]

all results: [[[<#Bob>, <#sonOf>, <#Fred>], [<#Fred>, <#sonOf>, <#John>]], [[<#Bob>, <#name>, "Bob"], [<#Fred>, <#name>, "Fred"]]]

02:42:30 [sbp]

dict of results: {'?z': None, '?y': None, '?x': None}

02:42:46 [sbp]

I store the bindings only at the very end, when it does the variable matching

02:42:54 [bijan]

I don't understand.

02:43:12 [bijan]

You found all the #sonOfs

02:43:20 [bijan]

THen all the #names

02:43:22 [sbp]

and all the names

02:43:32 [bijan]

then, for each sonOf.

02:43:37 [sbp]

no

02:43:50 [sbp]

not for each sonOf. This when I get the cp

02:43:58 [sbp]

which turns out to be: [[[<#Bob>, <#sonOf>, <#Fred>], [<#Bob>, <#name>, "Bob"]], [[<#Fred>, <#sonOf>, <#John>], [<#Bob>, <#name>, "Bob"]], [[<#Bob>, <#sonOf>, <#Fred>], [<#Fred>, <#name>, "Fred"]], [[<#Fred>, <#sonOf>, <#John>], [<#Fred>, <#name>, "Fred"]]]

02:44:18 [sbp]

then I apply matching

02:44:30 [bijan]

Ergh.

02:44:32 [bijan]

Pretty print that?

02:44:36 [sbp]

sure...

02:44:47 [bijan]

Or pretty paste, whatever :)

02:45:02 [sbp]

[[<#Bob>, <#sonOf>, <#Fred>], [<#Bob>, <#name>, "Bob"]]

02:45:02 [sbp]

[[<#Fred>, <#sonOf>, <#John>], [<#Bob>, <#name>, "Bob"]]

02:45:03 [sbp]

[[<#Bob>, <#sonOf>, <#Fred>], [<#Fred>, <#name>, "Fred"]]

02:45:03 [sbp]

[[<#Fred>, <#sonOf>, <#John>], [<#Fred>, <#name>, "Fred"]]

02:45:39 [sbp]

the original query is ?x <#sonOf> ?y .\n?x <#name> ?z .

02:45:40 [bijan]

Then you see if ?x is the same in the first one?

02:45:48 [sbp]

yep

02:45:58 [bijan]

Ok, yes, that's insane :)

02:46:07 [sbp]

well, it's a bit more generic than that, because it has to work for all queries...

02:46:41 [bijan]

Hmm. But hte originalist is just a list of triples yes/

02:46:42 [bijan]

?

02:46:48 [bijan]

Are you using a >2.1 python?

02:46:49 [sbp]

the original list of what?

02:46:52 [sbp]

Python 2.2

02:46:53 [bijan]

triples

02:46:57 [bijan]

Ooo! Ok

02:47:00 [sbp]

yeah, that's just a list

02:47:04 [bijan]

Try a list comprehension on it!

02:47:15 [sbp]

and how would I be doing that? :-)

02:47:20 [bijan]

(Taking a leaf from mnesia)

02:47:26 [bijan]

Hit the manual.

02:47:40 [sbp]

* sbp prints out a copy and goes to find a hammer

02:47:57 [bijan]

A list comprehension is basically a query of the form "All items where item is blah blah blah

02:48:48 [bijan]

I don't know the python syntax for them.

02:49:29 [bijan]

Mnesia (the erlang distributed db) uses them for it's query language (mnesymone)

02:49:31 [sbp]

oh, right: [x(s) for s in list]

02:49:44 [bijan]

There you go.

02:50:05 [sbp]

I use that all over the place for stuff. What do I do with in in the query, though?

02:50:06 [bijan]

Ok, what would be the transform of the query...

02:50:41 [bijan]

Well, look at your query...

02:51:06 [bijan]

?x :sonOf ?y. ?x :name ?z.

02:51:20 [bijan]

Hmm.

02:51:23 [bijan]

No.

02:51:52 [bijan]

Damn, I'm still binding the variables paritally :)

02:52:12 [bijan]

End up with your cross product again.

02:52:53 [sbp]

When I was writing the first query engine, I kept doing partial bindings... quite frustrating. Then I thought I had it figured out for Eep :-)

02:53:15 [sbp]

well, it does *work*

02:53:17 [bijan]

Partial bindings are the right why.

02:53:19 [bijan]

way

02:55:17 [bijan]

What's your break over point?

02:55:31 [bijan]

3 query statements and 100 items?

02:55:31 [bijan]

:)

02:55:36 [sbp]

*ahem*

02:55:48 [bijan]

Just curious ;)

02:55:56 [sbp]

at the moment, I raise an exception when asked to find the cp of more than 500000 paths

02:56:07 [bijan]

Hmm. I wonder if number of variables plays a role.

02:56:08 [sbp]

that'd take about 2 minutes, I guesstimate

02:56:14 [bijan]

Interesting.

02:56:37 [bijan]

50,0000 paths is...

02:56:45 [bijan]

Er.

02:56:50 [bijan]

50,000...

02:58:00 [sbp]

the problem is, it's dependent not just on the amount of query triples, but the amount of query answers too, for each query triple. So it's difficult to give an exact borking point

02:58:09 [bijan]

Yes.

02:58:17 [bijan]

THough query hurts you worse.

02:59:12 [bijan]

That you're triple bound makes high query triple numbers likely

02:59:49 [sbp]

triple bound?

03:00:30 [bijan]

Having to cast yoru statemetns as triples.

03:00:50 [bijan]

I.e., if you could have polyadic predicates, you could smoosh them together.

03:01:09 [sbp]

well, it's telling that all of the tests worked. In actual fact, I rarely run big queries

03:01:18 [sbp]

polyadic: quite. But this is RDF, mister!

03:02:10 [bijan]

That's what I said ;)

03:02:14 [sbp]

ah, the borking point will be dependent upon the amount of variables per query triple

03:02:26 [sbp]

[obviously]

03:02:27 [bijan]

Why?

03:02:51 [bijan]

Well, except in how they affect the number of results?

03:02:52 [sbp]

because the amount of matches you get rises from 1 to 2 to 3 univars in the query triple

03:03:21 [sbp]

the number of results is a big factor, since the cp is dependent upon the product of them all

03:03:52 [bijan]

So, not at all except in affecting the number of results ;)

03:04:05 [bijan]

IOW, it's teh number of results which affect the borking point ;)

03:04:20 [bijan]

Hmm. Some simple analysis should help, yes?

03:04:29 [bijan]

If you have 3 vars, kill that triple

03:04:40 [bijan]

SInce it matches anything, it permits anything.

03:04:53 [bijan]

If you have *no* vars, do that first and just check the bindings.

03:05:13 [sbp]

if n is 1 and res is the list of results, for i in res: n *= len(i). if n is now bigger than 500000, bork

03:05:26 [sbp]

yep, the simple analysis should help

03:05:48 [sbp]

but I tried it, using a slightly more complex simple query (I used an xrquery, in fact)

03:06:16 [sbp]

so it did a bit of the matching at query time. Obviously not enough, because it still borked

03:06:49 [sbp]

the only way to fix it would be to change the algorithm so that for each member on the first result, you pass the current bindings along, and so on until you reach the end of a path

03:07:01 [sbp]

it's the sane way, the normal searching algorithm

03:07:02 [bijan]

Yep.

03:07:03 [AaronSw]

My policy of keeping everything comes in handy. My little brother Noah is using my 8th grade homework since the teachers assigned him the same thing they assigned me.

03:07:15 [sbp]

lol!

03:07:30 [bijan]

* bijan finds that annoying, in a priggest way.

03:07:36 [bijan]

priggish.

03:07:40 [AaronSw]

.wn priggish

03:07:41 [Galahad]

priggish defined as:

03:07:42 [Galahad]

- adj : exaggeratedly proper; "my straitlaced Aunt Anna doesn't approve of my miniskirts" [syn: {prim}, {prissy}, {prudish}, {puritanical}, {square-toed}, {straitlaced}, {straightlaced}, {tight-laced}, {victorian}]

03:08:34 [sbp]

heh. "priggishly prissy puritanical prude". Wonderful

03:08:51 [bijan]

* bijan having been an instructor, forced by university rules to enforce measures against cheating, doesn't have fond memories of that.

03:09:09 [sbp]

I'll bet

03:10:41 [sbp]

but the 8th grade is hardly degree-time

03:10:56 [bijan]

Hmm. Eep might actaully work for the chimp, well.

03:11:00 [AaronSw]

I'm not letting him copy my writing assignments, but I figure the empirical data is ok. (I told him to try searching on Napster first.)

03:11:09 [bijan]

Ah!

03:11:25 [bijan]

Prolly, unless the task is to gather the empirical data ;)

03:11:43 [AaronSw]

Hey! He's gathering it...

03:11:53 [sbp]

heh, heh

03:11:54 [bijan]

You knew what I meant.

03:12:37 [bijan]

The skill of looking stuff up is important, as is the skill of getting your older brother to turn over *his* results, but they're different than runnin gan experiment.

03:13:27 [AaronSw]

The assignment was more like, go see if your family has these genetic traits...

03:18:05 [bijan]

Ok, ta.

03:18:06 [bijan]

bijan has quit ("Leaving")

03:29:46 [AaronSw]

Ugh, the monitor beeping is back

03:30:03 [sbp]

what's that?

03:30:29 [AaronSw]

My monitor emits the high-pitched hum when nothing changes on the screen.

03:30:49 [sbp]

quick fix: turn the monitor off, put a bin bag over it, and haul it out the nearest window. No more humming!

03:31:04 [AaronSw]

Unfortunately it's part of my computer: I have a laptop, remember?

03:31:13 [sbp]

ah... of course

03:33:31 [sbp]

ooh, another potenial flame war on www-html

03:33:45 [sbp]

"Let's make the web accessible to everybody but popular browser users!" - Robert Koberg

03:34:02 [AaronSw]

Heh!

03:34:50 [Ash]

Ash (~aaron@166.70.121.2) has joined #swhack

03:34:54 [AaronSw]

Ash!

03:35:02 [Ash]

hey there, other Aaron

03:35:06 [Ash]

;-)

03:35:12 [sbp]

* sbp waves

03:35:15 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw dons PROTECTIVE GEAR

03:35:15 [Ash]

I just installed your archiver proxy

03:35:18 [Ash]

hey sbp

03:35:18 [AaronSw]

oooh

03:35:27 [Ash]

well, grabbed the code and ran it. Heh.

03:35:37 [AaronSw]

It seems your machine hasn't melted yet. This is good. :)

03:35:48 [sbp]

Archiver Proxy: working out of the box since the fall of 201

03:35:51 [Ash]

I've been wanting something that does this for a while, and it's been on my project list but I haven't gotten around to writing it.

03:35:52 [Ash]

good job

03:35:53 [Ash]

:)

03:35:53 [sbp]

er... that'd be 2001

03:35:58 [AaronSw]

Heh.

03:36:01 [AaronSw]

Thanks.

03:38:41 [AaronSw]

If you visit it with your web browser, you get a little web server with configuration options and access to your archived docs

03:39:40 [Ash]

hmm

03:39:47 [Ash]

'Resource temporarily unavailable'

03:39:53 [Ash]

the config page is cool.

03:40:01 [AaronSw]

thanks

03:40:06 [AaronSw]

where do you get the "temporarily unavailable" message?

03:40:13 [Ash]

When I try to go to a site

03:40:31 [Ash]

Odd.

03:40:36 [AaronSw]

That's odd... you're not inside a company firewall or something, are you?

03:40:44 [Ash]

Not this machine, no.

03:40:47 [Ash]

It's just nat'ed.

03:40:52 [AaronSw]

what's the full message?

03:41:09 [Ash]

Error connecting to slashdot.org on port 80: Resource temporarily unavailable

03:41:14 [Ash]

with a 404 up to

03:41:15 [Ash]

p

03:41:28 [AaronSw]

wacky.

03:41:39 [AaronSw]

can you `telnet slashdot.org 80`?

03:42:01 [Ash]

Yes indeedy.

03:42:51 [AaronSw]

Weird...

03:42:52 [Ash]

* Ash moves his web browser a wee bit closer to his irc window

03:43:15 [Ash]

4400 pixels is too far away

03:43:33 [AaronSw]

Heh.

03:44:20 [AaronSw]

That error sounds like your networking interface is messed...

03:44:25 [Ash]

* Ash hugs his desk full of monitors

03:44:37 [Ash]

Well, everything else is working fine...

03:45:08 [Ash]

ACK

03:45:10 [AaronSw]

Does the code print out An error occurred, details are in errors.txt?

03:45:14 [Ash]

the dreaded ^M!!!

03:45:18 [Ash]

Nope.

03:45:20 [AaronSw]

Aargh!

03:45:29 [Ash]

Your code has a bunch of ^M's in it.

03:45:33 [Ash]

;-)

03:45:38 [AaronSw]

^Ms? in my code?

03:45:52 [Ash]

The dos carriage returns.

03:45:53 [Ash]

Heh.

03:45:57 [sbp]

<AaronSw> *me*?

03:46:07 [sbp]

<AaronSw> you must be mistaken, guv'ner

03:46:09 [Ash]

* Ash gives AaronSw a proper editor

03:46:09 [Ash]

;-)

03:46:18 [AaronSw]

Hey! I do use a proper editor these days.

03:46:25 [AaronSw]

I'm pretty sure I got rid of all the ^Ms

03:46:30 [Ash]

xemacs on win32 doesn't add these ^M's

03:46:49 [AaronSw]

maybe it's the HTTP server

03:47:01 [Ash]

ah crap, I don't have my .emacs here yet

03:47:02 [Ash]

grr

03:47:08 [Ash]

I can't M-x from-dos the file

03:47:09 [Ash]

heh

03:47:22 [AaronSw]

Heh.

03:47:40 [AaronSw]

Yeah, must be the HTTP server since my local copy is in UNIX.

03:48:13 [AaronSw]

And I use a Mac anyway, so it wouldn't have \n\m, which is what I'm getting from the server.

03:48:21 [sbp]

$ python -c "import urllib2; print urllib2.urlopen('http://logicerror.com/archiverProxy-code').read().count('\r')"

03:48:21 [sbp]

778

03:48:40 [Ash]

Probably, AaronSw :)

03:48:51 [AaronSw]

[Course that's not much consolation sine I wrote the server too...]

03:48:56 [Ash]

What port does this thing default too?

03:48:58 [Ash]

-o

03:49:08 [Ash]

i set it to 8080

03:49:17 [AaronSw]

It says when it starts up... 8888 I think

03:49:38 [Ash]

8000

03:49:41 [Ash]

nope, same problem

03:49:44 [Ash]

criminy

03:50:14 [Ash]

Ooh.

03:50:38 [Ash]

Could other users on the local machine go in and change the proxy settings, out of curiosity?

03:50:56 [AaronSw]

I'd expect so, depends what browser you're using.

03:51:03 [Ash]

Interesting.

03:51:42 [AaronSw]

Oh, you mean the configuration settings on the ArchiverProxy? Yeah, anyone with access to its port could.

03:51:52 [AaronSw]

That's sorta one issue with running it for lots of people.

03:52:17 [Ash]

Yeah, that's what I mean.

03:52:29 [AaronSw]

Ash, try setting DEBUG_LEVEL = 2 in the code

03:53:23 [wmf]

wmf (wesf@cs242733-11.austin.rr.com) has joined #swhack

03:53:33 [AaronSw]

hey wmf

03:53:35 [Ash]

(0) OOO (11, 'Resource temporarily unavailable')

03:53:35 [Ash]

(0) R sender_connection_error((11, 'Resource temporarily unavailable')) for slashdot.org:80

03:53:35 [Ash]

(0) sender closing

03:53:35 [Ash]

(0) sender closing

03:53:38 [Ash]

* Ash floods

03:53:42 [wmf]

howdy

03:53:43 [Ash]

hi, wmf.

03:53:43 [AaronSw]

Hm, that wasn't too helpful.

03:53:50 [Ash]

No joke.

03:53:52 [AaronSw]

wmf, been reading "The Star Fraction" today.

03:53:54 [Ash]

* Ash tries it on a local site

03:53:58 [wmf]

cool

03:54:01 [AaronSw]

It's good.

03:54:02 [wmf]

what do you think?

03:54:12 [AaronSw]

He had me won from the first few pages.

03:54:25 [AaronSw]

And I always laugh politely at the geek jokes.

03:54:44 [wmf]

there's going to be a Beep: The Definitive Guide

03:54:52 [AaronSw]

Oooh. Who's writing it?

03:54:58 [AaronSw]

.google Beep: The Definitive Guide

03:54:58 [wmf]

Rose, of course

03:54:58 [Galahad]

Beep: The Definitive Guide: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author=Rose,%20Marshall

03:55:10 [sbp]

* sbp waves to Wes

03:55:17 [Ash]

.google intro to beep

03:55:17 [Galahad]

intro to beep: http://beepnik.wiredobjects.com

03:55:20 [Ash]

.google beep for dummies

03:55:21 [Galahad]

beep for dummies: http://www.phonelosers.org/red_box.html

03:55:44 [AaronSw]

.google teach yourself to be an unleashed beep dummy in 21 days

03:55:45 [Galahad]

teach yourself to be an unleashed beep dummy in 21 days: http://www.efeduniverse.com/uew/floods/year2000/ff08302000.html

03:55:54 [Ash]

lol

03:56:39 [AaronSw]

Hm, somehow a Wolf isn't what I'd associate with BEEP...

03:56:56 [wmf]

a clown, maybe

03:57:03 [AaronSw]

Or a road-runner.

03:57:09 [wmf]

yeahj

03:57:14 [Ash]

Stopping external proxies:

03:57:14 [Ash]

Could not connect to locahost 8000, oh well...

03:57:14 [Ash]

Starting proxy at http://127.0.0.1:8000/

03:57:16 [Ash]

hmm

03:57:22 [Ash]

(i set debug to 3 and got this)

03:57:22 [AaronSw]

Yeah, that's normal.

03:57:25 [Ash]

Oh okay.

03:57:40 [AaronSw]

It tries to make sure it's not still running before starting up a new instance.

03:58:02 [AaronSw]

Hm, Amazon does't have the O'Reilly RDF book yet. I'm curious what's going to be on the cover.

03:58:14 [wmf]

who's writing that one?

03:58:19 [AaronSw]

BurningBird

03:58:24 [AaronSw]

or whatever her name is

03:59:01 [wmf]

I wonder if anyone is using BEEP yet

03:59:25 [AaronSw]

SimonStL was yelling at me for delaying the RDF book, because the WG has changed so much. I complained that if I knew we were delaying the book, we would have changed more!

03:59:44 [wmf]

heh

04:00:07 [AaronSw]

All the good changes are shot down by the "No Fun Thru Backwards Compatibility" squad

04:00:32 [Ash]

* Ash shoots down CSS

04:00:39 [Ash]

* Ash shoots down RSS 1.0

04:00:40 [Ash]

bam

04:00:45 [AaronSw]

No!

04:00:54 [Ash]

hehe

04:01:04 [wmf]

* wmf covers AaronSw's face

04:01:07 [AaronSw]

[fighter noises: neeeyowww, neh neh neh neh neh!]

04:01:22 [Ash]

<dwiner> our products don't use css so it must suck. same with rss 1.0

04:01:29 [Ash]

wmf, how is radio 9 coming?

04:01:47 [wmf]

* wmf shoots down Ash

04:02:05 [Ash]

hee hee

04:02:56 [wmf]

nope, looks like nobody is really using BEEP for anything

04:03:29 [AaronSw]

What was your scientific method of determining this?

04:03:47 [AaronSw]

I hear ACME is adopting it into their roadrunner-catching line of products.

04:03:58 [wmf]

looking at the "cool software that uses BEEP" section of beepcore.org

04:04:47 [AaronSw]

I guess all the real uses are uncool (squashing civil liberties, DRM, killing cartoon characters)

04:04:59 [Ash]

AaronSw: How does your proxy handle multiple copies of the same page? i.e. when I reload wmf.editthispage.com the next day and it's changed

04:05:15 [AaronSw]

you'll get wmf.editthispage.com/index/1 and /2 and /3, etc.

04:05:21 [Ash]

ah, cool

04:05:31 [Ash]

and you can check the datestamp on the file to see what day it was, eh?

04:05:31 [AaronSw]

the View mode will just give you the latest, though

04:05:41 [AaronSw]

Yep, or the n.headers file

04:05:47 [Ash]

sweet.

04:05:49 [wmf]

Ash: actually, the proxy has a special Illuminati feature where it doesn't archive HTP

04:05:56 [AaronSw]

Fnord!

04:06:07 [wmf]

so I can change it whenever I want, and no one will have record

04:06:18 [AaronSw]

Ah, so that's why he has META NOARCHIVE

04:06:27 [Ash]

wmf: It's okay, I have my Illuminati retina-scanner hooked up to my pc so it knows I'm allowed to have a real version

04:06:37 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw looks, he has 112 copies of wmf.editthispage.com

04:07:13 [Ash]

* Ash gets back to writing MASTERCONTROL.lisp

04:07:27 [AaronSw]

Hm, and 996419306 copies of scripting.com

04:07:37 [wmf]

heh

04:07:57 [Ash]

* Ash hears 996419306 copies of netscape crying out, all at the same instant

04:08:07 [AaronSw]

heh, heh

04:08:17 [Ash]

scripting.com screws up netscape big time

04:08:26 [AaronSw]

Netscape4

04:08:30 [Ash]

heh

04:08:37 [AaronSw]

Everything screws up netscape4

04:08:38 [Ash]

that's the only verion that works ;-)

04:08:38 [wmf]

* wmf shoots down Netscape 4

04:09:00 [AaronSw]

Even HTP screws up NS4, and HTP works on just about everything!

04:09:04 [Ash]

Mozilla is getting better, but it still crashes and goes berzerk every 2 days

04:09:13 [Ash]

netscape doesn't do that at least

04:09:14 [Ash]

heh

04:09:28 [Ash]

* Ash notes that novell should die

04:10:57 [AaronSw]

wmf, do you have some secret O'Reilly new books feed or something?

04:11:05 [AaronSw]

That's three O'Reilly books in two days you've called.

04:11:32 [wmf]

three?

04:11:45 [AaronSw]

well, counting O'Reilly Community Press as one

04:11:52 [wmf]

I got that from LWN

04:12:02 [Ash]

illuminati-list@ora.com

04:12:11 [wmf]

Ash: sssshhh!

04:12:15 [Ash]

Oh, oops

04:12:40 [Ash]

* Ash calls in a hit on everyone in the channel

04:12:59 [wmf]

* wmf is whisked away in a black helicopter

04:13:01 [Ash]

* Ash sends hax0rz from N.U.R.V. after AaronSw

04:13:07 [AaronSw]

lol

04:13:10 [Ash]

I saw a black helicopter on the way to work.

04:13:26 [Ash]

my legs are still sore

04:13:27 [Ash]

ugh

04:13:46 [AaronSw]

What? It knocked out your legs?

04:14:00 [AaronSw]

I remember when I used to have O'Reilly-Press privileges. I could get any O'Reilly book for free, and even some that weren't in print yet. They had BETA stamped across the cover in red.

04:14:13 [wmf]

awesome

04:17:19 [AaronSw]

On this month's developer CD: "Apple/Genentech BLAST includes the executable and source code of the Apple/Genentech enhancements to NCBI BLAST."

04:17:48 [wmf]

are you planning to do some genehacking?

04:18:20 [AaronSw]

It's part of my Illuminati duities...

04:19:17 [wmf]

@ http://www1.fatbrain.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=0966741714&vm=c

04:19:23 [chumpster]

A: Fatbrain.com - Product Info for Totally Unauthorized Microsoft Joke Book from wmf

04:20:04 [Ash]

YEEEEEEEEEEEE HAW

04:20:09 [Ash]

my server update actually workd

04:20:11 [Ash]

worked

04:20:12 [Ash]

amazing

04:20:26 [Ash]

* Ash caps GroupWise

04:24:11 [AaronSw]

Ooh, [deleted] might pay for me to go to Emerging Fads!

04:27:33 [wmf]

http://www1.fatbrain.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=059600236X&vm=c

04:27:52 [wmf]

I'm finding all kinds of books that aren't on the O'Reilly site

04:28:30 [AaronSw]

Yeah, I huess they don't put it on the site until it ships.

04:28:47 [wmf]

well, O'Reilly has a page of upcoming books

04:28:53 [AaronSw]

Hm.

04:29:16 [AaronSw]

Hm, even Amazon doesn't have that: http://isbn.nu/059600236X

04:29:25 [wmf]

yeah, I noticed that

04:29:51 [AaronSw]

you should blog it

04:29:55 [wmf]

it's odd that fatbrain claims that the book is already shipping, yet nobody else has heard of it

04:30:06 [AaronSw]

Hm, they claim it's shipping?

04:30:30 [AaronSw]

That is suspicious.

04:30:38 [AaronSw]

Date Published: 02/2002

04:30:45 [wmf]

hmm, maybe it's not shipping yet

04:32:30 [wmf]

I wonder what other stealth O'Reilly books are out there

04:35:17 [AaronSw]

Fatbrian shows: Constitutional Federalism in a Nutshell

04:35:46 [AaronSw]

802.11 Wireless Networks: The Definitive Guide

04:36:01 [AaronSw]

Alternative Medicine: the Definitive Guide

04:36:22 [wmf]

ah, you had the same idea I did

04:39:43 [AaronSw]

Ooh! Http: The Definitive Guide 06/2002

04:40:07 [AaronSw]

Ant: The Definitive Guide 04/2002

04:40:50 [AaronSw]

Bluetooth in a Nutshell 02/2002

04:41:03 [AaronSw]

err 02/2003

04:41:08 [AaronSw]

Python in a Nutshell 02/2003

04:42:11 [AaronSw]

{ASP.NET, Java Enterprise, VB.NET Language, Windows XP, J2ME, Java, C#, Jxta} in a nutshell

04:42:47 [AaronSw]

Hm, I bet they're going to botch HTTP in a nutshell

04:43:04 [wmf]

who's the author?

04:43:06 [tansaku1a]

Quantum String Theory in a Nutshell 03/2007

04:43:22 [AaronSw]

Linda Mui, of "termcap and terminfo", etc.

04:43:28 [wmf]

hmm

04:44:48 [wmf]

not many people understand the true nature of HTTP

04:45:12 [wmf]

* wmf installs a Matrix II desktop background

04:46:09 [tansaku1a]

Recombinant Gene Splicing: The Definitive Guide 05/2006

04:46:34 [wmf]

when does Nanotech in a Nutshell come out?

04:47:01 [tansaku1a]

01/2008

04:47:52 [tansaku1a]

Creation of a Palestinian State in a Nutshell: 01/450003

04:48:00 [wmf]

ouch

04:48:45 [tansaku1a]

US Emission Reduction: The Definitive Guide - no date yet announced

04:49:33 [tansaku1a]

General Equality of Opportunity in a Nutshell: out of print

04:49:52 [tansaku1a]

Flogging a dead-horse in a nutshell .....

04:49:57 [tansaku1a]

I'm calling it a day

04:51:00 [wmf]

damn overdesigned matrix web site killed my browser

04:51:32 [jeremiah]

hello everyone

04:51:41 [monokrom]

hello j

04:51:56 [jeremiah]

wmf: is that a joke about nanotech in a nutshell?

04:52:13 [wmf]

jeremiah: what do you think?

04:52:17 [Ash]

WOO

04:52:18 [Ash]

@#%@#%2

04:52:22 [Ash]

it worked

04:52:23 [jeremiah]

it should be called nanotech in a...

04:52:23 [Ash]

huzzah

04:52:25 [Ash]

i can go home.

04:52:28 [jeremiah]

(something really damn small)

04:52:31 [jeremiah]

nanotech in a buckyball

04:52:34 [Ash]

(die novell die)

04:53:45 [AaronSw]

HTTP: The Definitive Guide - http://isbn.nu/1565925092

04:53:51 [AaronSw]

At least BN.com has that one.

04:57:08 [hazmat]

hazmat (~chatzilla@adsl-66-123-57-58.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) has joined #swhack

04:57:20 [hazmat]

who here is a bot? ;)

04:57:59 [hazmat]

not bad, mostly human

04:58:02 [hazmat]

hi folks

05:07:13 [hazmat]

hazmat has quit (Remote closed the connection)

05:08:36 [tansaku1a]

I'm mostly bot

05:09:06 [sbp]

heh, heh

05:10:13 [GabeW]

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05:12:12 [hazmat]

hazmat (~chatzilla@adsl-66-123-57-58.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) has joined #swhack

05:14:40 [AaronSw]

who's this monokrom fellow?

05:15:14 [monokrom]

my name's brian

05:15:17 [monokrom]

nice to meet u

05:16:14 [sbp]

and he's an SW hacker :-)

05:19:36 [BenSw]

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05:20:12 [BenSw]

Bandersnatch Is Working!!!!!!

05:24:41 [AaronSw]

Hi Brian, nice to meet you. I'm the thing described by <http://www.aaronsw.com/>.

05:24:41 [AaronSw]

Cool, BenSw!

05:46:30 [AaronSw]

whoa! Rob Flickenger is in the hospital!

05:49:06 [monokrom]

where did u read/hear that?

05:50:51 [GabeW]

scripting.com

05:51:01 [monokrom]

bummer :X

05:55:33 [wmf]

wmf has quit ("going to the store")

05:59:13 [AaronSw]

23 hours until W3C France

06:06:08 [jeremiah]

hello

06:06:34 [AaronSw]

howdy

06:06:46 [jeremiah]

I wish I could blog all my adventures

06:06:55 [jeremiah]

btw: made a test script and did some changes for the xmlrpc networking stuff

06:07:02 [jeremiah]

I think I'm moderately close to having it working

06:07:28 [AaronSw]

awesome

06:07:30 [jeremiah]

we're gonna have to do some work on ips and hosts

06:07:35 [jeremiah]

I finished up reading the chord spec

06:07:40 [AaronSw]

ah

06:07:44 [jeremiah]

and they actually talk about having an ip and a port in there

06:07:48 [jeremiah]

s/hosts/ports

06:08:03 [jeremiah]

in the node identifier that is

06:08:05 [AaronSw]

Yep.

06:08:18 [jeremiah]

I'm thinking something like <node 1 127.0.0.1:8001>

06:08:45 [jeremiah]

except I'd like to see if they are already using something now

06:09:17 [AaronSw]

what's wrong with ip:port?

06:09:46 [jeremiah]

are you saying you'd like to use the format that I said above

06:09:50 [jeremiah]

(use a capital 'N' though)

06:10:12 [AaronSw]

I mean, why the <node 1 127.0.0.1:8001> gunk?

06:10:18 [jeremiah]

how would you like to do it?

06:10:31 [AaronSw]

just ip + ':' + port

06:10:39 [jeremiah]

ok..

06:10:42 [AaronSw]

well, sha512(ip + ':' + port)

06:10:43 [jeremiah]

and how would you handle node ids?

06:10:54 [jeremiah]

I don't think we're talking about the same thing here

06:10:57 [AaronSw]

oh, i thought we were talking about nodeids...

06:11:02 [jeremiah]

me too

06:11:22 [AaronSw]

node identifiers have to be 512 bits, right?

06:11:52 [jeremiah]

well, the network I've been building passes around <Node 1> type tags right now

06:11:56 [jeremiah]

i thought that is what we wanted

06:12:02 [jeremiah]

didn't know we wanted a hash of it

06:12:30 [AaronSw]

Oh, I see the confusion.

06:12:49 [AaronSw]

We're dealing with two things:

06:12:59 [AaronSw]

How we describe nodes to other nodes

06:13:25 [AaronSw]

(i.e. you can talk to him using Chord-over-HTTP 1.5 on port 8383 at IP X)

06:13:36 [AaronSw]

and the Chord ID for a node

06:13:43 [jeremiah]

ok

06:13:56 [AaronSw]

(i.e. the 512-bit number that's used for searching and stuff in the protocol like that)

06:14:05 [jeremiah]

yeah

06:14:48 [jeremiah]

well I agree that they should be separated so that if node '1' moves from one ip to another it doesn't make the whole network rearrange where it thinks data is

06:15:18 [jeremiah]

but I think passing the ip and port along with 'where' something is on the network, at least when we do communication over HTTP and over TCP/IP would make sense

06:15:30 [jeremiah]

which is why I advocate <Node 1 ip:port>

06:16:35 [AaronSw]

well, they have to be separated because a SHA provides no information on how to talk to it

06:16:43 [jeremiah]

yeah

06:17:19 [jeremiah]

now the actual node ids

06:17:27 [jeremiah]

like the number they talk about in the cord docs

06:17:34 [AaronSw]

so 1 is the node id?

06:17:38 [jeremiah]

is that going to be a sha value?

06:17:42 [AaronSw]

yes

06:17:52 [jeremiah]

and you think that should be a sha hash of the ip and port?

06:18:07 [AaronSw]

i can't think of anything better

06:18:10 [jeremiah]

alright THAT answers a huge question I was wondering about

06:18:11 [jeremiah]

good

06:18:21 [jeremiah]

I was wondering 'where the hell are we going to come up with a central authority for these things'

06:18:28 [sbp]

Gotta run

06:18:29 [jeremiah]

good, now I have a better idea of how this works

06:18:30 [AaronSw]

Heh.

06:18:36 [AaronSw]

<Node bce4664c1ff183acd4ad36dd8c9c509611150b40db4543b1d42813783cd3c27343ee9b062d25ae7dbdd3c420ffa21ce35f693ed530e93570fe9b6a4675ed0fb0 ip:port> seems confusing

06:18:45 [jeremiah]

yeah

06:18:50 [AaronSw]

it's even worse if you use the actual number

06:18:55 [jeremiah]

yeah

06:19:08 [jeremiah]

sweet, so now I know what we're doing

06:19:12 [jeremiah]

(sigh... code rework)

06:19:17 [jeremiah]

not a huge one though

06:22:56 [jeremiah]

so should the xmlrpc nodes pass just the hash value or <Node hash>?

06:23:11 [AaronSw]

neither of those will work

06:23:17 [AaronSw]

remember what we're using these for

06:23:18 [jeremiah]

oh yeah

06:23:24 [jeremiah]

wow my brain is fried

06:23:27 [AaronSw]

Heh.

06:23:31 [jeremiah]

how about <Node ip:port>

06:24:21 [AaronSw]

that'll work. I was (ip, port) as in an XML-RPC list...

06:24:33 [jeremiah]

oh yeah

06:24:43 [jeremiah]

alright, well, this work deserves to be done in the morning anyways

06:25:12 [AaronSw]

Heh.

06:25:17 [jeremiah]

I'm pretty tired

06:35:18 [Galahad]

Galahad is now known as xena

06:41:10 [AaronSw]

Joe Clark: "CSS is nice. Tables are not so bad. And I am telling you right now the accessibility defects of tables are overblown or outright false."

06:41:46 [AaronSw]

in http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/15007#230973

06:43:07 [AaronSw]

On being challenged, Joe writes "I run Lynx every day of the week."

06:52:47 [tansaku1a]

tansaku1a has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

07:03:10 [AaronSw]

.dns mysterylights.com

07:03:14 [xena]

mysterylights.com - 80.94.192.48

07:12:38 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw goes to sleep

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09:35:12 [dogcow]

dogcow (~amathews@166.70.45.198) has joined #swhack

09:52:50 [dogcow]

the archiver proxy problem seems to only affect mandrake. My freebsd server here at home runs it without problems.

11:05:36 [tansaku]

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14:54:33 [sbp]

* sbp kinda agrees with Joe Clark about tables

14:54:51 [sbp]

problems are mainly caused when they don't lineraize

14:54:58 [deltab]

deltab (deltab@mewtwo.espnow.com) has joined #swhack

14:55:22 [sbp]

but OTOH, for the sites on which they don't linearize, they often have bigger accessibility problems, like using one big GIF for the site

14:56:44 [sbp]

I'd love to have a million pages at WCAG-A more than I'd love to have a thousand at AAA

15:11:00 [bijan]

bijan (bparsia@login0.isis.unc.edu) has joined #swhack

15:34:31 [sbp]

Pff. FPIs are so silly

15:34:39 [bijan]

FPI?

15:35:14 [sbp]

Formal Public Identifiers

15:35:26 [sbp]

.google "Formal Public Identifier"

15:35:27 [bijan]

* bijan doesn't care and doesn't want to know.

15:35:28 [xena]

"Formal Public Identifier": http://www.ucc.ie/cgi-bin/PUBLIC

15:37:04 [sbp]

neat: http://www.ucc.ie/cgi-bin/PUBLIC?-//IETF//DTD_HTML_3.0//EN

15:41:45 [sbp]

ooh, I had the same idea: http://web.archive.org/web/19990218185818/www.jtauber.com/standards/fpi-urn/delegate.html

15:42:20 [sbp]

FPIs are just stupid

15:43:39 [sbp]

[URI BNF doesn't allow slashes, so that's out]

15:47:16 [sbp]

cool! I can boycott FPIs!

15:47:36 [sbp]

the W3C validator accepts STSTEM doctype decs.:-

15:47:38 [sbp]

<!DOCTYPE html SYSTEM "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd" >

15:49:22 [bijan]

Hmm. Odd.

15:53:22 [bijan]

I'm getting superlong serach times for relatively simpel findall queries.

15:53:40 [bijan]

Although very fast otherones.

15:59:01 [AaronSw]

DanC: "It's not as if WGs hand design questions to the TAG, after all, is it? Our role is to measure designs against a minimally constraining architecture, I think, no?"

16:00:59 [bijan]

sbp, where did TBL say that he was thinking of cloning CWM to C or machine code?

16:01:35 [AaronSw]

www-archive, I think (but I'm not sbp)

16:01:46 [bijan]

You *aren't*?

16:01:51 [bijan]

* bijan revises world view.

16:02:56 [AaronSw]

Heh.

16:03:13 [AaronSw]

<bijan> *Now* it all makes sense!

16:03:27 [bijan]

Er. actually it doesn't.

16:03:32 [bijan]

It makes much less sense.

16:03:45 [bijan]

Unifying you and sbp was a *simplifying* and *clarifying* assumption.

16:05:45 [AaronSw]

Oh, well, we're the same assuming access to a fast Internet connection.

16:06:38 [bijan]

Huh.

16:06:59 [bijan]

I seem to have added reasonable hacks for :a, <#>, etc.

16:07:35 [bijan]

Ooo, ok, that's a *nice* feature of rdf_db.pl

16:08:17 [bijan]

You can pop variables in for the prefix, localname, or both, or the qname

16:08:50 [bijan]

I should have realized that, but I've never used it before.

16:09:07 [bijan]

Hmm. requires some care, though.

16:09:50 [bijan]

Horks on literals.

16:10:23 [bijan]

Example:

16:10:26 [bijan]

?- rdf(X:A,rdf:B,Z).

16:10:26 [bijan]

X = ''

16:10:26 [bijan]

A = 'http://musicbrainz.org/track/1a2764f2-3081-485f-b3d5-d1e64ca823b4'

16:10:26 [bijan]

B = type

16:10:27 [bijan]

Z = 'http://musicbrainz.org/mm/mm-2.0#Track'

16:11:23 [sbp]

CWM in C: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-interest/2002Feb/0083

16:11:31 [sbp]

"(I need to clone it in C or machine code, but that's another matter)"

16:11:45 [sbp]

lol @ <bijan> Unifying you and sbp was a *simplifying* and *clarifying* assumption.

16:12:18 [sbp]

* sbp is hacking about with XHTML Modularization again

16:12:33 [sbp]

it's quite easy as long as you don't bork the DTDs up

16:13:38 [sbp]

it's such a shame about the namespace prefix stuff

16:16:11 [bijan]

Hmm. I suspect I need to invalidate and rebuild the prefix cache...

16:18:35 [bijan]

Hmm. That note suggests that CWM internals are much cleaner now.

16:24:09 [AaronSw]

AaronSw has changed the topic to: Feel free to dial in from France!

16:24:17 [AaronSw]

AaronSw has changed the topic to: Feel free to dial in from France!

16:24:58 [bijan]

Off.

16:24:59 [bijan]

bijan has quit ("Leaving")

16:25:20 [AaronSw]

ooh: http://www.w3.org/2002/01/w3c-track.html

16:26:29 [AaronSw]

Whoa, XML Signature is a REC. I guess I should read it now...

16:26:55 [AaronSw]

Hm, I didn't know the W3C had a "Cool Web" activity.

16:27:24 [sbp]

w3c-track: cool

16:34:26 [sbp]

ooh, XHTML Basic seemed to be messed up - it keeps complaining that there's no ruby.qname

16:35:14 [AaronSw]

DanC, formalizations of the Web: Number one: The Larch. [click, click] The Larch. Number one: The Larch.

16:35:14 [AaronSw]

cf. http://www.w3.org/XML/9711theory/

16:35:50 [sbp]

lol

16:36:27 [sbp]

Hmm... actually, it's a problem in Ruby

16:36:31 [AaronSw]

[based on [OLM] from sbp]

16:36:39 [sbp]

heh, heh

16:45:50 [AaronSw]

irby walks!

16:46:32 [AaronSw]

aww, we missed the "I'm a good boy" dance!

17:02:41 [sbp]

heh, heh: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Finfomesh.net%2F2002%2Fm12n%2Ftest%2Fcomment-test.html&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline

17:02:58 [sbp]

it took a while (nearly two years), but I have that damn comment attribute

17:03:12 [sbp]

which should actually be an element. Well, there you go

17:04:03 [AaronSw]

heh!

17:07:51 [Ash]

Ash has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))

17:08:21 [sbp]

as an element: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Finfomesh.net%2F2002%2Fm12n%2Ftest%2Fecomment-test.html&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=%28detect+automatically%29

17:08:40 [sbp]

once you have templates to work from, it's really quite easy

17:09:53 [sbp]

I wonder if I can fix XHTML to use <label> in ways that will make it less borktastic?

17:10:00 [sbp]

* sbp searches for his GL email

17:11:22 [sbp]

ah: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2001JulSep/1000

17:12:00 [sbp]

Hmm... so I'd need to make <label> an inline element

17:12:07 [sbp]

and make sure that it can take img/object

17:14:27 [sbp]

arg: <!ELEMENT %label.qname; %label.content; >

17:14:31 [sbp]

no label extension?

17:21:36 [sbp]

cool, it worked! http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Finfomesh.net%2F2002%2Fm12n%2Ftest%2Flabel-test.html&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline

17:23:15 [sbp]

you gotta love this page: http://infomesh.net/2002/m12n/test/label-test.html

17:23:36 [monokrom]

monokrom (~chatzilla@208-58-246-147.s147.tnt3.atnnj.pa.dialup.rcn.com) has joined #swhack

17:25:10 [sbp]

* sbp waves to monokrom

17:25:19 [monokrom]

* monokrom waves back

17:25:21 [monokrom]

:D

17:28:52 [sbp]

ooh:-

17:29:02 [sbp]

<!ATTLIST %html.qname;

17:29:02 [sbp]

%XHTML.xmlns.attrib;

17:29:02 [sbp]

%XHTML.version.attrib;

17:29:02 [sbp]

%I18n.attrib;

17:29:02 [sbp]

>

17:29:18 [sbp]

didn't notice the before... let's check it out

17:30:33 [sbp]

ugh, this validates:-

17:30:39 [sbp]

<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"

17:30:39 [sbp]

version="-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN"

17:30:39 [sbp]

xml:lang="en" >

17:30:57 [dogcow]

hey AaronSw

17:31:04 [AaronSw]

howdy!

17:31:23 [dogcow]

Your proxy works great on FreeBSD. I'm guessing the problem has something to do with mandrake.

17:31:39 [dogcow]

I just set the proxy up to run on my server so I can use it from all my computers. :)

17:31:43 [sbp]

s/the/that/

17:31:56 [AaronSw]

Cool. :-)

17:32:36 [dogcow]

Yup.

17:32:52 [dogcow]

Now I just need to point it at my caching proxy and I'll be doing good ;-)

17:33:17 [AaronSw]

Heh, heh

17:33:26 [dogcow]

I have novell fastcache at work

17:33:29 [dogcow]

it rocks all over

17:33:35 [AaronSw]

I should really make it do caching, but I'm too lazy. ;-)

17:33:51 [AaronSw]

caching being support for stuff like If-Modified-Since and max-age

17:34:00 [dogcow]

wouldn't caching be a whole lot more work?

17:34:06 [AaronSw]

yeah, it'd be a ton

17:34:43 [dogcow]

yeah.. just make it able to use another proxy

17:34:47 [dogcow]

should be fast enough

17:35:08 [dogcow]

heh.. my little P100 server's disk grinds every time i load a page.

17:35:13 [AaronSw]

Heh.

17:35:36 [AaronSw]

the problem is you get a duplication of data from the cacher and the archiver

17:36:58 [dogcow]

except that the cache usually expires thing after a while

17:37:10 [AaronSw]

yeah, that's another thing.

17:37:19 [dogcow]

mine @ work clears out items after a week or two

17:37:25 [dogcow]

I forget what I've got it set to.

17:37:28 [AaronSw]

But there's no reason for it to if you're archiving everything anyway.

17:37:39 [dogcow]

yup

17:38:01 [dogcow]

i tell you what, I don't like a lot of things about novell's bordermanager.. but their proxy is *so* fast

17:38:18 [AaronSw]

Hmm.

17:38:24 [sbp]

Hmm... perhaps I can hack version to use a URI...

17:39:09 [AaronSw]

I guess my code is as fast as the file system. I don't notice any speed difference on my machine, but i suspect that it's doing a lot of caching in memory.

17:39:27 [AaronSw]

that last it being OS X

17:40:05 [dogcow]

The only reason I notice it is that this machine is very slow with not a lot of ram, so it does disk writes frequently.

17:40:24 [AaronSw]

Ah.

17:41:29 [dogcow]

softupdates helps quite a bit, but since I'm running various other things on there as well it's a wee bit noisy.

17:41:44 [dogcow]

I'm moving it to a slightly faster machine with U2W scsi here shortly, so it's no big deal.

17:42:08 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw has a relatively quiet laptop disk

17:42:11 [AaronSw]

drive

17:42:27 [dogcow]

heh

17:42:35 [dogcow]

the drive in my server is an old maxtor 6gb

17:42:41 [sbp]

done: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Finfomesh.net%2F2002%2Fm12n%2Ftest%2Furiversion-test.html&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=%28detect+automatically%29

17:43:50 [AaronSw]

404 http://infomesh.net/2002/m12n/test/uriversion-test.txt

17:45:57 [BenSw]

BenSw has quit ("Client Exiting")

17:46:18 [sbp]

it's .html

17:46:54 [sbp]

DTD at http://infomesh.net/2002/m12n/test/uriversion.txt

17:47:18 [sbp]

and it uses a URI, not a fragURI :-)

17:47:21 [sbp]

Gotta run

18:23:37 [tansaku]

tansaku has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

18:26:35 [BenSw]

BenSw (~yoda@12-249-96-16.client.attbi.com) has joined #swhack

18:31:14 [BenSw]

Hi

18:40:17 [AaronSw]

/j mnet-users

18:40:22 [AaronSw]

oops

18:44:41 [dogcow]

dogcow has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))

18:44:55 [Ash]

Ash (~amathews@166.70.45.198) has joined #swhack

18:45:05 [BenSw]

wb Ash

18:45:08 [Ash]

re

18:45:09 [Ash]

heh

18:45:27 [Ash]

Apparently my router doesn't like this 100mbit switch. :(

18:50:32 [Ash]

Heh.

18:50:41 [Ash]

I'm installing Ximian Gnome through Aaron's proxy.

18:50:43 [Ash]

Bwahahahaha.

18:50:49 [AaronSw]

heh heh!

18:51:09 [Ash]

This way I have a local mirror of the RPMs. ;-)

18:51:18 [Ash]

It's cruising right along, no noticeable delay.

18:53:07 [AaronSw]

nice

18:53:45 [Ash]

yeah

18:53:50 [Ash]

hammering my internal network

18:59:35 [sbp]

* sbp just watched a phenomenal new Simpsons - DABF01

18:59:37 [sbp]

Homer: Aah, the sweet couple of seconds before I remember why I'm sleeping on the lawn

18:59:57 [sbp]

the animation didn't look as smooth as it has for the last couple of seasons (which is good - reminds me of the old episode)

19:00:04 [sbp]

s/episode/episodes/

19:00:36 [sbp]

good plot, plenty of funny bits, and numerous Homerisms

19:00:47 [sbp]

Al Jean is working wonders, it seems :-)

19:01:24 [Ash]

Oops. I crashed the proxy, apparently.

19:01:34 [Ash]

* Ash chuckles

19:22:55 [AaronSw]

uh oh! :)

19:23:17 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw has to go, let me know if you want my updated version with adblocking!

19:49:29 [Ash]

adblocking!

19:49:32 [Ash]

Sweet!

19:54:40 [tansaku]

tansaku (~sam@n144-063.tokyu-net.catv.ne.jp) has joined #swhack

19:55:04 [Ash]

Hey, tansaku

19:55:16 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw tries to solve the three-kinds of people logic puzzle

19:55:33 [Ash]

logic? bah

19:55:37 [Ash]

we have no need for such things

19:55:40 [AaronSw]

heh heh

19:56:41 [Ash]

we are borg

20:07:31 [Ash]

Ash has quit (Remote closed the connection)

20:41:20 [AaronSw]

Heh:-

20:41:22 [AaronSw]

CNet: If Windows is so bad, why does Apple have a meager 4 percent market share?

20:41:23 [AaronSw]

Barlow: Four? Really? Jesus. They really blew that one.

21:05:38 [AaronSw]

.wn term

21:05:43 [xena]

term defined as:

21:05:44 [xena]

- n 1: a word or expression used for some particular thing; "he learned many medical terms"

21:05:45 [xena]

- 2: a limited period of time; "a prison term"; "he left school before the end of term"

21:05:46 [xena]

- 3: (usually plural) a statement of what is required as part of an agreement; "the contract set out the conditons of the lease"; "the terms of the treaty were generous" [syn: {condition}]

21:05:47 [xena]

- 4: any distinct quantity contained in a polynomial; "the general term of an algebraic equation of the n-th degree"

22:23:48 [bijan]

bijan (bparsia@login0.isis.unc.edu) has joined #swhack

23:25:13 [BenSw]

BenSw is now known as Bensw|bandersnatch

23:39:59 [bijan]

Got empty prefixes working.