00:02:27 Hmm... I'm thinking of releasing Eep, but I'm not sure to what lists 00:02:44 I have a choice: www-rdf-interest, www-rdf-logic, www-rdf-rules 00:02:56 I don't want to send it to all three. Even two is risky 00:03:06 [although I'd send separate emails, of course] 00:04:20 I lean towards www-rdf-interest, and www-rdf-rules 00:04:33 woiw, i'm a fucking moron. 00:04:39 agreed 00:04:42 heh, heh 00:04:43 why? 00:04:44 i'm sitting here trying to print a get_setting variable that I deprecated last version. 00:04:44 sigh. 00:04:52 ugh 00:04:54 so, its printing as undef, which is correct 00:05:16 that is rather silly, but Amphy is quite big... 00:05:17 well, jeez, it works fine when i pick a valid one. 00:05:26 especially for settings, yes :) 00:05:31 exactly 00:05:33 so, this rocks. 00:05:37 wow, that was easy. 00:11:38 * sbp goes through his mail from this-day-one-year-ago 00:11:41 lots of stuff... 00:11:51 Seth was starting to talk about the SEM 00:12:33 although it didn't seem to be called that at the time 00:13:20 all quiet on the Semantic Front, these days 00:13:25 and Plex isn't as fun as SWAG 00:14:24 in terms of developing it, that is 00:14:33 it's hardly a vibrant community project 00:21:28 argh, I keep running against the damn HyperText content management problem - it's easier to manage information when it's all in one file, but that's antithetical to the the aims of HyperText in general 00:21:34 one day, I'll fix it 00:22:03 i'm trying to now blackbox the template functions and am running into issues. 00:22:20 I think this comes under the "Writing/Collaboration" pieces in Aaron's master plan, so perhaps he'll fix it for me 00:22:27 what are the issues? 00:23:05 well, i want to create a amphetadesk_create_template function, which is just a stub to the text::template functions. the a_c_t would return a text::template object. 00:23:27 then, to actually parse, i would say amphetadesk_parse_template($a_c_t_object); 00:24:01 the issue is that there's no easy way for me to add additinal commands to the a_parse_template routine, which would be passed to the actobject. 00:24:07 i mean, its possible, but its "dirty". 00:24:24 heh. I'd be doing apt($acto); and I'd be well-lost by now 00:24:40 well, those are just example names. 00:24:48 it makes more sense in the real code. 00:31:49 really, I want to be able to maintain something as one file, and then let people derive bits from it for citing, etc. 00:32:41 I'm really limited by my server... if I could use Python CGIs, I'd have a lot more flexibility 00:39:33 crap, this isn't going to workl. 00:39:55 workle? 00:40:04 yeah, its not gonna work. 00:40:12 not the ampheta wrapper around text::template. 00:40:15 i need to rething it. 00:40:17 think it even 00:42:14 well, it'll work, but it'll be horrific. 00:44:46 whoo! it works. 00:44:49 i needed to add 4 lines of code. 00:44:53 and it works. 00:44:59 but its kludgely. needs that rethinking 00:45:00 sigh. 00:46:07 ok. anyone wanna discuss this with me? 00:47:02 what is there to discuss? 00:47:12 how the api for templates should work. 00:47:29 go on them 00:47:33 or then 00:47:34 mmkay. 00:47:57 as mentioned, I want to blackbox the real template system (text::template) under AmphetaDesk functions (amphetadesk::templates) 00:48:20 so, ultimately, i'm looking at creating the text::template objects in amphetadesk::templates, and simply returning them to the caller. 00:48:33 but, there are two options that I have. 00:48:40 or more that i haven't thought of, of course./ 00:48:43 initially, i was thinking of: 00:48:53 my $tpl_my_settings = create_template_object( "my_settings" ); 00:48:53 my $page_data = parse_template_object( $tpl_my_settings ); 00:49:30 now, this works fine - i have this working now. 00:49:45 the issue is that there's no way I can find out what the object of parse_template_object is once I have it. 00:50:05 so, if the "my_settings" template needed special instructions in parse_template_object, there's no way I could add it. 00:50:29 so, here's the other option. 00:50:45 create_template_object( "my_settings" ); 00:51:04 add_to_template_object( "my_settings", config="1"); 00:51:19 $data = parse_template_object ( "my_settings" ); 00:51:35 this has a single advantage: 00:51:42 - unlimited template names 00:52:01 that will allow peopel to define their won templates and template names without me caring (which is much harder to do under the first option(). 00:52:05 option). 00:52:35 the disadvantage is that i'd have to keep state for the various objects ( "my_settings" ) in the amphetadesk::settings module itself. 00:52:48 which i'm not entirely sure how to dp. 00:53:01 that's what is running through my head right now. 00:53:04 any candid opinions? ;) 00:53:37 erm... 00:53:55 would it help if I told you that I didn't follow any of that 00:53:57 ah! 00:54:02 I need to read it first 00:54:03 heh, heh. 00:54:28 Hmm... reading it was not a good idea. Now I'm really confused :-) 00:54:35 heh, heh. 00:54:43 where'd i lose ya?everywhere? 00:54:47 yes 00:54:51 mmkay. 00:54:57 "the issue is that there's no way I can find out what the object of parse_template_object is once I have it"? 00:54:58 how about this. 00:55:04 right. 00:55:24 if someone says parse_template_object ( $tpl_my_settings ), they're saying "parse the my_settings template". 00:55:57 but, within the parse_template_object function, there's no way that I could know they mean the "my_settings" template - I'd have to treat it generically, which means I lose the power of modifying the template output based on what template they want. 00:56:07 *modifying the template configuration 00:56:43 so why don't you pass it an extra argument, or something? 00:56:53 well, i don't want to run into some evil: 00:57:17 you mean, evil lurks in Perl? 00:57:19 aha! 00:57:20 parse_template_option( $tpl_my_settings, "my_settings", additional_config=1, additional_config_2=4) sort of long thing. 00:57:43 i don't want a huge argumented func - i'd like to keep it as simplistic as possibel 00:57:45 well, you only need to add the string telling you what template it is, don' you? 00:58:07 correct, if I don't want them to pass any extra options. 00:58:14 but i may in the future. 00:58:19 so i want to prepare for that. 00:58:49 thus the add_to_template_object sorta thing in the second example. 00:59:03 i could add that to the existing one though. 01:00:34 what is $tpl_my_settings? 01:00:46 why doesn't it contain the string identifier for the template? 01:00:50 in the example, it's an object from the text::template module. 01:01:07 I have no idea what that is, of course 01:01:14 some kinda text template, perhaps? 01:01:57 * sbp finds himself wanting to extend HTML again. Must... resist... temptation... to... debork... XHTML... 01:02:13 heh. 01:02:16 nevermind :) 01:02:33 sorry I can't be of more help... 01:02:47 you should have known I'd be useless. Hey, I'm no replacement for AaronSw 01:02:49 nah, don't worry about it. its tough when i don't really have a clue of what i want just yet; 01:02:57 you make a hearty meal though. 01:02:59 although he probably wouldn't have the foggiest, either... 01:03:23 I never pictured myself as a chef 01:03:29 I know, I know... 01:03:38 * Morbus backspaces... 01:04:19 no wmf today? odd 01:04:33 * sbp shouldn't tempt fate 01:05:00 that's the #swhack equivalent of whistling up the wind... 01:08:59 ok. 01:09:02 this is what i'm using: 01:09:03 create_template_object( "my_settings" ); 01:09:03 my $page_data = parse_template_object( "my_settings" ); 01:09:10 which should be flexible enough for now. 01:09:46 good, good 01:10:46 sbp has changed the topic to: Amphetadesk: it's flexible enough for now 01:10:55 :) 01:11:34 this makes sense, right? 01:11:34 v 01:11:37 create_template_object( "my_settings" ); 01:11:37 my $page_data = parse_template_object( "my_settings" ); 01:11:37 $connection->print( $page_data ); 01:11:55 Hmm... it actually does 01:12:05 except for the "v" 01:12:09 heh. 01:12:11 which I presume is not related 01:12:25 uh... it's a down arrow. you know. 01:12:42 looks like an ASCII lower-case letter v to me 01:12:52 but what do I know? 01:12:54 well, it looks like one, but yer wrong. 01:12:54 01:13:33 you should do: 01:14:12 [date and time courtesy of "echo `u timenow`"] 01:14:56 "$ u timenow" would have worked too, but I like to obfuscate 01:16:33 * sbp wonders where that character set draft thing is 01:16:44 .google site:w3.org character encoding for the Web 01:16:45 site:w3.org character encoding for the Web: http://www.w3.org/TR/charmod 01:17:02 much oblig'd, m'am 01:17:35 ooh, a new draft released just two days ago 01:17:46 I believe they call it "progress" 01:17:55 oh man, PF will have to review it when it goes to last call... 01:18:16 well, it's already been to last call 01:18:18 once/twice 01:18:31 kinda like UAAG :-) 01:19:23 Charmod is a rather important document... 01:25:47 It'd be good to have URIs for characters 01:35:08 whoo! 01:35:14 my_settings.html is converted to text::template. 01:35:16 yay. this is fun. 01:53:46 tansaku1a has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:17:26 does this make sense? 02:17:27 [[[ 02:17:27 By default, AmphetaDesk will try it's best to correct invalid 02:17:27 or badly written XML from the various channels that you subscribe 02:17:28 to. If you want AmphetaDesk to ignore these channels (as per the 02:17:28 XML spec), change this setting. 02:17:29 ]]] 02:20:23 yep 02:20:42 k. 02:20:50 its been in ampheta for a while, but i'm finally putting a ui on it. 02:20:58 due to this new settings/template thing 02:23:24 ok. the popup options on that are worded as: 02:23:29 "try to correct channel errors" 02:23:33 and "ignore badly written channels" 02:23:34 sound good? 02:23:38 yep 02:23:41 thanks 02:23:43 np 02:23:53 enter 10c to go again 02:24:08 newly added line to my_settings template: 02:24:09 "Options are in the order of "most useful" to "esoteric mumbo jumbo"." 02:24:11 :) 02:24:15 heh! 02:25:27 * deltab wonders if #swhack is a badly written channel 02:25:53 * Morbus goes to make some tea 02:26:09 it's only badly written when I'm around 02:26:40 * AaronSw has returned 02:27:23 welcome back to Swhackland 02:28:49 @ http://markpasc.org/blog/2002/01/14.html#70707AM 02:28:52 A: markpasc.blog: 14 January 2002 from AaronSw 02:31:16 A:|markpasc.blog: Swhack Weblog 02:31:17 titled item A 02:31:21 A::We love you Mark! 02:31:22 commented item A 02:31:50 A::I don't. "et al."? What a cop out 02:31:51 commented item A 02:32:30 A::For those who don't know, Mark is the fellow who retired from a life of office supplies theft to create [Stapler|http://markpasc.org/code/stapler/] an RSS "scraper" tool for Radio UserLand. 02:32:32 commented item A 02:33:08 heh 02:33:10 A::Although current prison conditions being what they are, we can forgive Mark for not knowing that [scraping is the wrong term to use here|http://logicerror.com/screenScraping]. 02:33:12 commented item A 02:33:24 ugh 02:33:29 A::Hey, but what's a few staplers between friends... ;-) 02:33:30 commented item A 02:36:20 how about: 02:36:21 [[[ 02:36:21 Each time AmphetaDesk tries to contact the outside world, 02:36:21 it will wait 10 seconds for a response from the remote 02:36:21 server before giving up. If you'd like to increase or 02:36:22 decrease this timeout, enter the number of seconds here. 02:36:23 ]]] 02:36:25 ? 02:38:18 sure 02:39:05 it's quite obviously clear, so why do you need our approval? you just want to show off your kick-ass option explanatory text, don't you? 02:39:13 no, not at all. 02:39:14 It's not up to Morbus standards 02:39:18 it needs to be more saucy 02:39:22 heh. 02:39:47 i'm attacking two users: the stupid moron, and the smart people. i have a good idea of what sounds good for morons, but I want to make sure I'm not insulting the smart people too. 02:40:26 just add "you punk-bitch" to the end of it, to keep the smart people baffled 02:40:31 heh :) 02:41:15 attacking users isn't generally considered a good idea 02:41:36 quite true. 02:42:31 Linux kernel developers seem good at attacking users. 02:57:59 whoo hoo! 02:58:01 man, this is great. 03:02:38 i've reduced the number of *shipping* files in AmphetaDesk by 30 files. 03:02:46 and i know another 2 I can remove. 03:02:59 which is just good. 03:04:54 how many was there before? 03:05:50 um. dunno. too lazy right now. 03:18:43 Hm, this looks bad: "SIOCSIFFLAGS: Resource temporarily unavailable." 03:19:41 .google SIOCSIFFLAGS 03:19:41 SIOCSIFFLAGS: http://www.tux.org/hypermail/linux-eepro100/1998-Jul/0058.html 03:20:01 AaronSw: your ethernet card is sharing the same irq as something else. 03:20:09 i just ran into that today, as a matter of fact. 03:20:14 urgh. how do i fix that? 03:20:16 I've not heard of this place before: Benjamin Kram Center for Language & Speech Processing Assistant System 03:20:17 :-) 03:20:34 you gotta change the irq. there's a c utility to do it, but unfortunately, i don't have the url here. 03:20:36 classic lack of a comma, there 03:20:54 I can't exactly download it without an ethernet card. 03:21:11 sneakernet it you wuss. 03:21:15 did the card come with any disks? 03:21:23 Yeah... 03:21:24 if you have a dos boot disk, you may be able to change it with an ethernet disk 03:21:42 we had a ethernet disk here and a boot disk, but kept getting odd errors, so we did a google search, and came up with the c program. 03:21:56 hm 03:23:27 .google 3com ethernet c program change irq 03:23:28 3com ethernet c program change irq: http://www.linuxdoc.org/HOWTO/Ethernet-HOWTO-6.html 03:23:32 nope, that's not it. 03:23:39 Writing_Smart_Web_based_Forms: nice article 03:23:50 wrong fucking window 03:24:49 ooh, think i may have found the c program, AaronSw. 03:25:28 yeah, i had gotten it from this site: 03:25:28 http://www.scyld.com/network/ 03:26:46 aha 03:26:49 ftp://ftp.scyld.com/pub/diag/eepro100-diag.c 03:27:34 i doubt it will apply to the other cards, but we used the -Q option for our driver, as exaplined here: http://www.scyld.com/diag/3c5x9setup.html 03:27:53 we did this with the machine booted into linux, restrted, and everything was fine. 03:27:57 hth 03:28:09 jeremiah (~jeremiah@ip68-10-5-132.hr.hr.cox.net) has joined #swhack 03:28:17 \topic Tech-tips with Morbus 03:28:19 Hi J 03:28:31 so I'm sitting there thinking to myself "wow, i haven't talked to aaron or sbp in a while" and then i realize: irc hasn't been running in a while 03:28:36 hello sbp 03:28:41 heh! 03:28:58 this week has been hell 03:29:00 aw... so you thought you'd come and chat with us :-) 03:29:03 yeah 03:29:06 how is plex coming? 03:29:14 well, i narrowly averted implosion 03:29:14 heh, heh 03:29:34 not you - deltab saved the day! 03:29:43 oh? 03:29:56 well, we still avoided it 03:30:13 tav threatened to fork the project 03:30:18 why? 03:30:35 because he wanted to give the espians technical control 03:30:54 oh 03:31:07 * sbp feels that it won't be long until the next 100+kin debate, but oh well 03:31:13 err, what? 03:31:15 * Morbus groan 03:31:48 * jeremiah makes a comment: I'd care about giving espians control if I WAS an espian or if I had access to CVS, but since I have neither, i don't really care as long as the code gets out the door somehow 03:31:59 Heh. 03:32:12 Well, somehow I managed to get root so I can give you access now 03:32:15 we (well, they) resolved it by making it a "community project", where anyone who works on the code is a member of the community 03:32:24 oh 03:32:26 interesting 03:32:48 let's try this, hoping someone searches the logs 03:33:00 JEREMIAH CVS JEREMIAH CVS DELTAB CVS JEREMIAH GIVE JEREMIAH CVS PLEASE DELTAB 03:33:03 can i be part of the community? 03:33:11 no 03:33:15 i wanna be the guy where people go "well, at least yer not as dumb as him" and then you point to me and laugh. 03:33:16 anyone but Morbus 03:33:16 Morbus is excluded 03:33:21 wha?! you guys suck. 03:33:30 now, if your name contained three vowels 03:33:32 then maybe 03:33:34 but two 03:33:35 no 03:33:40 Well, somehow I managed to get root so I can give you access now, jeremiah. 03:33:43 yeah, two-vowels 03:34:02 is there a particular reason why we use deltabs servers for cvs? 03:34:02 hang on a second... 03:34:07 I mean, it's not a bad thing 03:34:15 just wondering why not sourceforge or something 03:34:24 SF? heh 03:34:27 because trying to switch servers caused the whole forking thing... 03:34:34 oh 03:34:37 erm, I don't have a cvs server 03:34:44 oh 03:34:50 which is why it's hard to add you to it, jeremiah 03:34:51 * jeremiah was under that impression 03:34:57 who does? 03:34:58 Heh. 03:35:04 It's the espian server. 03:35:17 no, the only ssh access is currently through shell login 03:35:29 you see, I say "can I have cvs access" and everyone says "ask deltab" 03:35:29 hence the confusion 03:35:51 hmm 03:36:05 so I need to set up a cvs pserver 03:36:12 with write access 03:36:14 great, the IRQ is conflicting with the video card 03:36:37 maybe it's easy to change the video card irq instead. 03:36:46 video card? pah, who needs that? 03:36:50 Heh. 03:37:11 son when i was a kid we didn't have video 03:37:15 heh, heh 03:37:25 and force feedback was sticking your fingers in the flash-bulb sockets 03:37:31 lol 03:37:42 heh 03:38:26 are there any standard deviation functions available in Oracle's SQL? 03:38:57 no? fine 03:39:09 oracle sql has everything 03:39:11 does oracle offer a free version of the sql server for educational purposes? 03:39:15 even an xml parser and a java compiler 03:39:19 jeremiah, yes if you run linux 03:39:24 but i wouldn't recommend it 03:39:25 hmm, maybe I should get it 03:39:26 why not? 03:39:30 it takes a weekend to install. 03:39:38 it's the most annoying thing I've ever used in my life 03:39:42 oh 03:39:50 postgresql has 90% of the functionality and is much easier to use 03:39:57 that's exactly why I should master it 03:40:00 yeah 03:40:02 Heh. 03:40:09 but no one gets paid 200K a year to run postgresql 03:40:13 ;-) 03:40:35 I recommend avoiding Oracle like the plague. 03:41:03 i resent that. 03:41:16 why? 03:41:24 nevermind 03:41:29 wimp! 03:41:37 morbus = disease in latin 03:41:41 does postgresql have the xml stuff that oracle has? 03:41:42 oh, right 03:41:45 because that sounds neat 03:42:04 Morbus has left #swhack 03:42:06 why would you want an xml parser in your database? it's just a stupid gimmick they use to sell it to people 03:42:30 because it should be fast as hell 03:42:50 I was imaging something like using SQL to select stuff from xml files 03:42:54 that would be interesting 03:43:22 That would be cool, but I don't think it can do that. 03:43:37 Sorry, I'm fighting linux, so I'm sort of in a bad mood. 03:44:26 Smackdown! AaronSw vs. Linux 03:45:34 I hate when something is supposed to be great but it has a huge learning curve 03:45:38 so you just don't use it at all 03:45:50 Oracle isn't great, IMO. 03:45:57 I didn't mean oracle 03:46:08 ah 03:46:37 I ment some of the stuff that runs on Linux 03:46:43 that is way too hard to figure out 03:46:44 that's sure true 03:46:45 and has sucky docs 03:47:08 I mean I have no trouble using someone elses libraries 03:47:15 but sometimes someone will say "you should use this" 03:47:20 and it's just so much of a pain in the ass 03:48:31 * sbp was fortuitous enough to find both STD and STDDEV in Oracle, and MySQL 03:48:45 STDDEV seems to be for backwards compatability 03:48:54 it's like: I have no problem using mysql or postgresql for a database, but when it comes to using zope, without even trying it, I have this uncomfortable feeling about using it 03:49:59 whereas using jboss or j2ee wouldn't make me uncomfortable 03:50:00 yeah 03:50:20 * jeremiah realized that jboss probably implements j2ee, or something 03:51:58 I wonder if it'd be feasable to write the j2ee libraries (or all the services it provides) for python 03:52:34 if you go nuts, sure 03:52:40