IRC log of swhack on 2002-02-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:02:27 [sbp]

Hmm... I'm thinking of releasing Eep, but I'm not sure to what lists

00:02:44 [sbp]

I have a choice: www-rdf-interest, www-rdf-logic, www-rdf-rules

00:02:56 [sbp]

I don't want to send it to all three. Even two is risky

00:03:06 [sbp]

[although I'd send separate emails, of course]

00:04:20 [sbp]

I lean towards www-rdf-interest, and www-rdf-rules

00:04:33 [Morbus]

woiw, i'm a fucking moron.

00:04:39 [sbp]

agreed

00:04:42 [sbp]

heh, heh

00:04:43 [sbp]

why?

00:04:44 [Morbus]

i'm sitting here trying to print a get_setting variable that I deprecated last version.

00:04:44 [Morbus]

sigh.

00:04:52 [sbp]

ugh

00:04:54 [Morbus]

so, its printing as undef, which is correct <g>

00:05:16 [sbp]

that is rather silly, but Amphy is quite big...

00:05:17 [Morbus]

well, jeez, it works fine when i pick a valid one.

00:05:26 [Morbus]

especially for settings, yes :)

00:05:31 [sbp]

exactly

00:05:33 [Morbus]

so, this rocks.

00:05:37 [Morbus]

wow, that was easy.

00:11:38 [sbp]

* sbp goes through his mail from this-day-one-year-ago

00:11:41 [sbp]

lots of stuff...

00:11:51 [sbp]

Seth was starting to talk about the SEM

00:12:33 [sbp]

although it didn't seem to be called that at the time

00:13:20 [sbp]

all quiet on the Semantic Front, these days

00:13:25 [sbp]

and Plex isn't as fun as SWAG

00:14:24 [sbp]

in terms of developing it, that is

00:14:33 [sbp]

it's hardly a vibrant community project

00:21:28 [sbp]

argh, I keep running against the damn HyperText content management problem - it's easier to manage information when it's all in one file, but that's antithetical to the the aims of HyperText in general

00:21:34 [sbp]

one day, I'll fix it

00:22:03 [Morbus]

i'm trying to now blackbox the template functions and am running into issues.

00:22:20 [sbp]

I think this comes under the "Writing/Collaboration" pieces in Aaron's master plan, so perhaps he'll fix it for me

00:22:27 [sbp]

what are the issues?

00:23:05 [Morbus]

well, i want to create a amphetadesk_create_template function, which is just a stub to the text::template functions. the a_c_t would return a text::template object.

00:23:27 [Morbus]

then, to actually parse, i would say amphetadesk_parse_template($a_c_t_object);

00:24:01 [Morbus]

the issue is that there's no easy way for me to add additinal commands to the a_parse_template routine, which would be passed to the actobject.

00:24:07 [Morbus]

i mean, its possible, but its "dirty".

00:24:24 [sbp]

heh. I'd be doing apt($acto); and I'd be well-lost by now

00:24:40 [Morbus]

well, those are just example names.

00:24:48 [Morbus]

it makes more sense in the real code.

00:31:49 [sbp]

really, I want to be able to maintain something as one file, and then let people derive bits from it for citing, etc.

00:32:41 [sbp]

I'm really limited by my server... if I could use Python CGIs, I'd have a lot more flexibility

00:39:33 [Morbus]

crap, this isn't going to workl.

00:39:55 [sbp]

workle?

00:40:04 [Morbus]

yeah, its not gonna work.

00:40:12 [Morbus]

not the ampheta wrapper around text::template.

00:40:15 [Morbus]

i need to rething it.

00:40:17 [Morbus]

think it even

00:42:14 [Morbus]

well, it'll work, but it'll be horrific.

00:44:46 [Morbus]

whoo! it works.

00:44:49 [Morbus]

i needed to add 4 lines of code.

00:44:53 [Morbus]

and it works.

00:44:59 [Morbus]

but its kludgely. needs that rethinking

00:45:00 [Morbus]

sigh.

00:46:07 [Morbus]

ok. anyone wanna discuss this with me?

00:47:02 [sbp]

what is there to discuss?

00:47:12 [Morbus]

how the api for templates should work.

00:47:29 [sbp]

go on them

00:47:33 [sbp]

or then

00:47:34 [Morbus]

mmkay.

00:47:57 [Morbus]

as mentioned, I want to blackbox the real template system (text::template) under AmphetaDesk functions (amphetadesk::templates)

00:48:20 [Morbus]

so, ultimately, i'm looking at creating the text::template objects in amphetadesk::templates, and simply returning them to the caller.

00:48:33 [Morbus]

but, there are two options that I have.

00:48:40 [Morbus]

or more that i haven't thought of, of course./

00:48:43 [Morbus]

initially, i was thinking of:

00:48:53 [Morbus]

my $tpl_my_settings = create_template_object( "my_settings" );

00:48:53 [Morbus]

my $page_data = parse_template_object( $tpl_my_settings );

00:49:30 [Morbus]

now, this works fine - i have this working now.

00:49:45 [Morbus]

the issue is that there's no way I can find out what the object of parse_template_object is once I have it.

00:50:05 [Morbus]

so, if the "my_settings" template needed special instructions in parse_template_object, there's no way I could add it.

00:50:29 [Morbus]

so, here's the other option.

00:50:45 [Morbus]

create_template_object( "my_settings" );

00:51:04 [Morbus]

add_to_template_object( "my_settings", config="1");

00:51:19 [Morbus]

$data = parse_template_object ( "my_settings" );

00:51:35 [Morbus]

this has a single advantage:

00:51:42 [Morbus]

- unlimited template names

00:52:01 [Morbus]

that will allow peopel to define their won templates and template names without me caring (which is much harder to do under the first option().

00:52:05 [Morbus]

option).

00:52:35 [Morbus]

the disadvantage is that i'd have to keep state for the various objects ( "my_settings" ) in the amphetadesk::settings module itself.

00:52:48 [Morbus]

which i'm not entirely sure how to dp.

00:53:01 [Morbus]

that's what is running through my head right now.

00:53:04 [Morbus]

any candid opinions? ;)

00:53:37 [sbp]

erm...

00:53:55 [sbp]

would it help if I told you that I didn't follow any of that

00:53:57 [sbp]

ah!

00:54:02 [sbp]

I need to read it first

00:54:03 [Morbus]

heh, heh.

00:54:28 [sbp]

Hmm... reading it was not a good idea. Now I'm really confused :-)

00:54:35 [Morbus]

heh, heh.

00:54:43 [Morbus]

where'd i lose ya?everywhere?

00:54:47 [sbp]

yes

00:54:51 [Morbus]

mmkay.

00:54:57 [sbp]

"the issue is that there's no way I can find out what the object of parse_template_object is once I have it"?

00:54:58 [Morbus]

how about this.

00:55:04 [Morbus]

right.

00:55:24 [Morbus]

if someone says parse_template_object ( $tpl_my_settings ), they're saying "parse the my_settings template".

00:55:57 [Morbus]

but, within the parse_template_object function, there's no way that I could know they mean the "my_settings" template - I'd have to treat it generically, which means I lose the power of modifying the template output based on what template they want.

00:56:07 [Morbus]

*modifying the template configuration

00:56:43 [sbp]

so why don't you pass it an extra argument, or something?

00:56:53 [Morbus]

well, i don't want to run into some evil:

00:57:17 [sbp]

you mean, evil lurks in Perl?

00:57:19 [sbp]

aha!

00:57:20 [Morbus]

parse_template_option( $tpl_my_settings, "my_settings", additional_config=1, additional_config_2=4) sort of long thing.

00:57:43 [Morbus]

i don't want a huge argumented func - i'd like to keep it as simplistic as possibel

00:57:45 [sbp]

well, you only need to add the string telling you what template it is, don' you?

00:58:07 [Morbus]

correct, if I don't want them to pass any extra options.

00:58:14 [Morbus]

but i may in the future.

00:58:19 [Morbus]

so i want to prepare for that.

00:58:49 [Morbus]

thus the add_to_template_object sorta thing in the second example.

00:59:03 [Morbus]

i could add that to the existing one though.

01:00:34 [sbp]

what is $tpl_my_settings?

01:00:46 [sbp]

why doesn't it contain the string identifier for the template?

01:00:50 [Morbus]

in the example, it's an object from the text::template module.

01:01:07 [sbp]

I have no idea what that is, of course

01:01:14 [sbp]

some kinda text template, perhaps?

01:01:57 [sbp]

* sbp finds himself wanting to extend HTML again. Must... resist... temptation... to... debork... XHTML...

01:02:13 [Morbus]

heh.

01:02:16 [Morbus]

nevermind :)

01:02:33 [sbp]

sorry I can't be of more help...

01:02:47 [sbp]

you should have known I'd be useless. Hey, I'm no replacement for AaronSw

01:02:49 [Morbus]

nah, don't worry about it. its tough when i don't really have a clue of what i want just yet;

01:02:57 [Morbus]

you make a hearty meal though.

01:02:59 [sbp]

although he probably wouldn't have the foggiest, either...

01:03:23 [sbp]

I never pictured myself as a chef

01:03:29 [sbp]

I know, I know...

01:03:38 [Morbus]

* Morbus backspaces...

01:04:19 [sbp]

no wmf today? odd

01:04:33 [sbp]

* sbp shouldn't tempt fate

01:05:00 [sbp]

that's the #swhack equivalent of whistling up the wind...

01:08:59 [Morbus]

ok.

01:09:02 [Morbus]

this is what i'm using:

01:09:03 [Morbus]

create_template_object( "my_settings" );

01:09:03 [Morbus]

my $page_data = parse_template_object( "my_settings" );

01:09:10 [Morbus]

which should be flexible enough for now.

01:09:46 [sbp]

good, good

01:10:46 [sbp]

sbp has changed the topic to: Amphetadesk: it's flexible enough for now

01:10:55 [Morbus]

:)

01:11:34 [Morbus]

this makes sense, right? <g>

01:11:34 [Morbus]

v

01:11:37 [Morbus]

create_template_object( "my_settings" );

01:11:37 [Morbus]

my $page_data = parse_template_object( "my_settings" );

01:11:37 [Morbus]

$connection->print( $page_data );

01:11:55 [sbp]

Hmm... it actually does

01:12:05 [sbp]

except for the "v"

01:12:09 [Morbus]

heh.

01:12:11 [sbp]

which I presume is not related

01:12:25 [Morbus]

uh... it's a down arrow. you know.

01:12:42 [sbp]

looks like an ASCII lower-case letter v to me

01:12:52 [sbp]

but what do I know?

01:12:54 [Morbus]

well, it looks like one, but yer wrong.

01:12:54 [Morbus]

<g>

01:13:33 [sbp]

you should do: <downArrow xmlns="http://www.disobey.com/20020222-011319"/>

01:14:12 [sbp]

[date and time courtesy of "echo `u timenow`"]

01:14:56 [sbp]

"$ u timenow" would have worked too, but I like to obfuscate

01:16:33 [sbp]

* sbp wonders where that character set draft thing is

01:16:44 [sbp]

.google site:w3.org character encoding for the Web

01:16:45 [xena]

site:w3.org character encoding for the Web: http://www.w3.org/TR/charmod

01:17:02 [sbp]

much oblig'd, m'am

01:17:35 [sbp]

ooh, a new draft released just two days ago

01:17:46 [sbp]

I believe they call it "progress"

01:17:55 [sbp]

oh man, PF will have to review it when it goes to last call...

01:18:16 [sbp]

well, it's already been to last call

01:18:18 [sbp]

once/twice

01:18:31 [sbp]

kinda like UAAG :-)

01:19:23 [sbp]

Charmod is a rather important document...

01:25:47 [sbp]

It'd be good to have URIs for characters

01:35:08 [Morbus]

whoo!

01:35:14 [Morbus]

my_settings.html is converted to text::template.

01:35:16 [Morbus]

yay. this is fun.

01:53:46 [tansaku1a]

tansaku1a has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

02:17:26 [Morbus]

does this make sense?

02:17:27 [Morbus]

[[[

02:17:27 [Morbus]

By default, AmphetaDesk will try it's best to correct invalid

02:17:27 [Morbus]

or badly written XML from the various channels that you subscribe

02:17:28 [Morbus]

to. If you want AmphetaDesk to ignore these channels (as per the

02:17:28 [Morbus]

XML spec), change this setting.

02:17:29 [Morbus]

]]]

02:20:23 [sbp]

yep

02:20:42 [Morbus]

k.

02:20:50 [Morbus]

its been in ampheta for a while, but i'm finally putting a ui on it.

02:20:58 [Morbus]

due to this new settings/template thing

02:23:24 [Morbus]

ok. the popup options on that are worded as:

02:23:29 [Morbus]

"try to correct channel errors"

02:23:33 [Morbus]

and "ignore badly written channels"

02:23:34 [Morbus]

sound good?

02:23:38 [sbp]

yep

02:23:41 [Morbus]

thanks

02:23:43 [sbp]

np

02:23:53 [sbp]

enter 10c to go again

02:24:08 [Morbus]

newly added line to my_settings template:

02:24:09 [Morbus]

"Options are in the order of "most useful" to "esoteric mumbo jumbo"."

02:24:11 [Morbus]

:)

02:24:15 [sbp]

heh!

02:25:27 [deltab]

* deltab wonders if #swhack is a badly written channel

02:25:53 [Morbus]

* Morbus goes to make some tea

02:26:09 [sbp]

it's only badly written when I'm around

02:26:40 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw has returned

02:27:23 [sbp]

welcome back to Swhackland

02:28:49 [AaronSw]

@ http://markpasc.org/blog/2002/01/14.html#70707AM

02:28:52 [chumpster]

A: markpasc.blog: 14 January 2002 from AaronSw

02:31:16 [AaronSw]

A:|markpasc.blog: Swhack Weblog

02:31:17 [chumpster]

titled item A

02:31:21 [AaronSw]

A::We love you Mark!

02:31:22 [chumpster]

commented item A

02:31:50 [sbp]

A::I don't. "et al."? What a cop out

02:31:51 [chumpster]

commented item A

02:32:30 [AaronSw]

A::For those who don't know, Mark is the fellow who retired from a life of office supplies theft to create [Stapler|http://markpasc.org/code/stapler/] an RSS "scraper" tool for Radio UserLand.

02:32:32 [chumpster]

commented item A

02:33:08 [sbp]

heh

02:33:10 [AaronSw]

A::Although current prison conditions being what they are, we can forgive Mark for not knowing that [scraping is the wrong term to use here|http://logicerror.com/screenScraping].

02:33:12 [chumpster]

commented item A

02:33:24 [sbp]

ugh

02:33:29 [AaronSw]

A::Hey, but what's a few staplers between friends... ;-)

02:33:30 [chumpster]

commented item A

02:36:20 [Morbus]

how about:

02:36:21 [Morbus]

[[[

02:36:21 [Morbus]

Each time AmphetaDesk tries to contact the outside world,

02:36:21 [Morbus]

it will wait 10 seconds for a response from the remote

02:36:21 [Morbus]

server before giving up. If you'd like to increase or

02:36:22 [Morbus]

decrease this timeout, enter the number of seconds here.

02:36:23 [Morbus]

]]]

02:36:25 [Morbus]

?

02:38:18 [sbp]

sure

02:39:05 [sbp]

it's quite obviously clear, so why do you need our approval? you just want to show off your kick-ass option explanatory text, don't you?

02:39:13 [Morbus]

no, not at all.

02:39:14 [AaronSw]

It's not up to Morbus standards

02:39:18 [AaronSw]

it needs to be more saucy

02:39:22 [Morbus]

heh.

02:39:47 [Morbus]

i'm attacking two users: the stupid moron, and the smart people. i have a good idea of what sounds good for morons, but I want to make sure I'm not insulting the smart people too.

02:40:26 [sbp]

just add "you punk-bitch" to the end of it, to keep the smart people baffled

02:40:31 [Morbus]

heh :)

02:41:15 [deltab]

attacking users isn't generally considered a good idea

02:41:36 [Morbus]

quite true.

02:42:31 [AaronSw]

Linux kernel developers seem good at attacking users.

02:57:59 [Morbus]

whoo hoo!

02:58:01 [Morbus]

man, this is great.

03:02:38 [Morbus]

i've reduced the number of *shipping* files in AmphetaDesk by 30 files.

03:02:46 [Morbus]

and i know another 2 I can remove.

03:02:59 [Morbus]

which is just good.

03:04:54 [AaronSw]

how many was there before?

03:05:50 [Morbus]

um. dunno. too lazy right now.

03:18:43 [AaronSw]

Hm, this looks bad: "SIOCSIFFLAGS: Resource temporarily unavailable."

03:19:41 [sbp]

.google SIOCSIFFLAGS

03:19:41 [xena]

SIOCSIFFLAGS: http://www.tux.org/hypermail/linux-eepro100/1998-Jul/0058.html

03:20:01 [Morbus]

AaronSw: your ethernet card is sharing the same irq as something else.

03:20:09 [Morbus]

i just ran into that today, as a matter of fact.

03:20:14 [AaronSw]

urgh. how do i fix that?

03:20:16 [sbp]

I've not heard of this place before: Benjamin Kram Center for Language & Speech Processing Assistant System

03:20:17 [sbp]

:-)

03:20:34 [Morbus]

you gotta change the irq. there's a c utility to do it, but unfortunately, i don't have the url here.

03:20:36 [sbp]

classic lack of a comma, there

03:20:54 [AaronSw]

I can't exactly download it without an ethernet card.

03:21:11 [Morbus]

sneakernet it you wuss.

03:21:15 [Morbus]

did the card come with any disks?

03:21:23 [AaronSw]

Yeah...

03:21:24 [Morbus]

if you have a dos boot disk, you may be able to change it with an ethernet disk

03:21:42 [Morbus]

we had a ethernet disk here and a boot disk, but kept getting odd errors, so we did a google search, and came up with the c program.

03:21:56 [AaronSw]

hm

03:23:27 [Morbus]

.google 3com ethernet c program change irq

03:23:28 [xena]

3com ethernet c program change irq: http://www.linuxdoc.org/HOWTO/Ethernet-HOWTO-6.html

03:23:32 [Morbus]

nope, that's not it.

03:23:39 [sbp]

Writing_Smart_Web_based_Forms: nice article

03:23:50 [sbp]

wrong fucking window

03:24:49 [Morbus]

ooh, think i may have found the c program, AaronSw.

03:25:28 [Morbus]

yeah, i had gotten it from this site:

03:25:28 [Morbus]

http://www.scyld.com/network/

03:26:46 [AaronSw]

aha

03:26:49 [Morbus]

ftp://ftp.scyld.com/pub/diag/eepro100-diag.c

03:27:34 [Morbus]

i doubt it will apply to the other cards, but we used the -Q option for our driver, as exaplined here: http://www.scyld.com/diag/3c5x9setup.html

03:27:53 [Morbus]

we did this with the machine booted into linux, restrted, and everything was fine.

03:27:57 [Morbus]

hth

03:28:09 [jeremiah]

jeremiah (~jeremiah@ip68-10-5-132.hr.hr.cox.net) has joined #swhack

03:28:17 [sbp]

\topic Tech-tips with Morbus

03:28:19 [sbp]

Hi J

03:28:31 [jeremiah]

so I'm sitting there thinking to myself "wow, i haven't talked to aaron or sbp in a while" and then i realize: irc hasn't been running in a while

03:28:36 [jeremiah]

hello sbp

03:28:41 [AaronSw]

heh!

03:28:58 [jeremiah]

this week has been hell

03:29:00 [sbp]

aw... so you thought you'd come and chat with us :-)

03:29:03 [jeremiah]

yeah

03:29:06 [jeremiah]

how is plex coming?

03:29:14 [AaronSw]

well, i narrowly averted implosion

03:29:14 [sbp]

heh, heh

03:29:34 [sbp]

not you - deltab saved the day!

03:29:43 [AaronSw]

oh?

03:29:56 [AaronSw]

well, we still avoided it

03:30:13 [AaronSw]

tav threatened to fork the project

03:30:18 [jeremiah]

why?

03:30:35 [AaronSw]

because he wanted to give the espians technical control

03:30:54 [jeremiah]

oh

03:31:07 [sbp]

* sbp feels that it won't be long until the next 100+kin debate, but oh well

03:31:13 [jeremiah]

err, what?

03:31:15 [Morbus]

* Morbus groan

03:31:48 [jeremiah]

* jeremiah makes a comment: I'd care about giving espians control if I WAS an espian or if I had access to CVS, but since I have neither, i don't really care as long as the code gets out the door somehow

03:31:59 [AaronSw]

Heh.

03:32:12 [AaronSw]

Well, somehow I managed to get root so I can give you access now

03:32:15 [sbp]

we (well, they) resolved it by making it a "community project", where anyone who works on the code is a member of the community

03:32:24 [jeremiah]

oh

03:32:26 [jeremiah]

interesting

03:32:48 [jeremiah]

let's try this, hoping someone searches the logs

03:33:00 [jeremiah]

JEREMIAH CVS JEREMIAH CVS DELTAB CVS JEREMIAH GIVE JEREMIAH CVS PLEASE DELTAB

03:33:03 [Morbus]

can i be part of the community?

03:33:11 [sbp]

no

03:33:15 [Morbus]

i wanna be the guy where people go "well, at least yer not as dumb as him" and then you point to me and laugh.

03:33:16 [jeremiah]

anyone but Morbus

03:33:16 [sbp]

Morbus is excluded

03:33:21 [Morbus]

wha?! you guys suck.

03:33:30 [jeremiah]

now, if your name contained three vowels

03:33:32 [jeremiah]

then maybe

03:33:34 [jeremiah]

but two

03:33:35 [jeremiah]

no

03:33:40 [AaronSw]

Well, somehow I managed to get root so I can give you access now, jeremiah.

03:33:43 [sbp]

yeah, two-vowels

03:34:02 [jeremiah]

is there a particular reason why we use deltabs servers for cvs?

03:34:02 [sbp]

hang on a second...

03:34:07 [jeremiah]

I mean, it's not a bad thing

03:34:15 [jeremiah]

just wondering why not sourceforge or something

03:34:24 [sbp]

SF? heh

03:34:27 [AaronSw]

because trying to switch servers caused the whole forking thing...

03:34:34 [jeremiah]

oh

03:34:37 [deltab]

erm, I don't have a cvs server

03:34:44 [jeremiah]

oh

03:34:50 [deltab]

which is why it's hard to add you to it, jeremiah

03:34:51 [jeremiah]

* jeremiah was under that impression

03:34:57 [jeremiah]

who does?

03:34:58 [AaronSw]

Heh.

03:35:04 [AaronSw]

It's the espian server.

03:35:17 [deltab]

no, the only ssh access is currently through shell login

03:35:29 [jeremiah]

you see, I say "can I have cvs access" and everyone says "ask deltab"

03:35:29 [jeremiah]

hence the confusion

03:35:51 [jeremiah]

hmm

03:36:05 [deltab]

so I need to set up a cvs pserver

03:36:12 [deltab]

with write access

03:36:14 [AaronSw]

great, the IRQ is conflicting with the video card

03:36:37 [Morbus]

maybe it's easy to change the video card irq instead.

03:36:46 [deltab]

video card? pah, who needs that?

03:36:50 [AaronSw]

Heh.

03:37:11 [jeremiah]

son when i was a kid we didn't have video

03:37:15 [sbp]

heh, heh

03:37:25 [jeremiah]

and force feedback was sticking your fingers in the flash-bulb sockets

03:37:31 [AaronSw]

lol

03:37:42 [deltab]

heh

03:38:26 [sbp]

are there any standard deviation functions available in Oracle's SQL?

03:38:57 [sbp]

no? fine

03:39:09 [AaronSw]

oracle sql has everything

03:39:11 [jeremiah]

does oracle offer a free version of the sql server for educational purposes?

03:39:15 [AaronSw]

even an xml parser and a java compiler

03:39:19 [AaronSw]

jeremiah, yes if you run linux

03:39:24 [AaronSw]

but i wouldn't recommend it

03:39:25 [jeremiah]

hmm, maybe I should get it

03:39:26 [jeremiah]

why not?

03:39:30 [AaronSw]

it takes a weekend to install.

03:39:38 [AaronSw]

it's the most annoying thing I've ever used in my life

03:39:42 [jeremiah]

oh

03:39:50 [AaronSw]

postgresql has 90% of the functionality and is much easier to use

03:39:57 [jeremiah]

that's exactly why I should master it

03:40:00 [jeremiah]

yeah

03:40:02 [AaronSw]

Heh.

03:40:09 [jeremiah]

but no one gets paid 200K a year to run postgresql

03:40:13 [AaronSw]

;-)

03:40:35 [AaronSw]

I recommend avoiding Oracle like the plague.

03:41:03 [Morbus]

i resent that.

03:41:16 [AaronSw]

why?

03:41:24 [Morbus]

nevermind

03:41:29 [AaronSw]

wimp!

03:41:37 [Morbus]

morbus = disease in latin

03:41:41 [jeremiah]

does postgresql have the xml stuff that oracle has?

03:41:42 [AaronSw]

oh, right

03:41:45 [jeremiah]

because that sounds neat

03:42:04 [Morbus]

Morbus has left #swhack

03:42:06 [AaronSw]

why would you want an xml parser in your database? it's just a stupid gimmick they use to sell it to people

03:42:30 [jeremiah]

because it should be fast as hell

03:42:50 [jeremiah]

I was imaging something like using SQL to select stuff from xml files

03:42:54 [jeremiah]

that would be interesting

03:43:22 [AaronSw]

That would be cool, but I don't think it can do that.

03:43:37 [AaronSw]

Sorry, I'm fighting linux, so I'm sort of in a bad mood.

03:44:26 [sbp]

Smackdown! AaronSw vs. Linux

03:45:34 [jeremiah]

I hate when something is supposed to be great but it has a huge learning curve

03:45:38 [jeremiah]

so you just don't use it at all

03:45:50 [AaronSw]

Oracle isn't great, IMO.

03:45:57 [jeremiah]

I didn't mean oracle

03:46:08 [AaronSw]

ah

03:46:37 [jeremiah]

I ment some of the stuff that runs on Linux

03:46:43 [jeremiah]

that is way too hard to figure out

03:46:44 [AaronSw]

that's sure true

03:46:45 [jeremiah]

and has sucky docs

03:47:08 [jeremiah]

I mean I have no trouble using someone elses libraries

03:47:15 [jeremiah]

but sometimes someone will say "you should use this"

03:47:20 [jeremiah]

and it's just so much of a pain in the ass

03:48:31 [sbp]

* sbp was fortuitous enough to find both STD and STDDEV in Oracle, and MySQL

03:48:45 [sbp]

STDDEV seems to be for backwards compatability

03:48:54 [jeremiah]

it's like: I have no problem using mysql or postgresql for a database, but when it comes to using zope, without even trying it, I have this uncomfortable feeling about using it

03:49:59 [jeremiah]

whereas using jboss or j2ee wouldn't make me uncomfortable

03:50:00 [deltab]

yeah

03:50:20 [jeremiah]

* jeremiah realized that jboss probably implements j2ee, or something

03:51:58 [jeremiah]

I wonder if it'd be feasable to write the j2ee libraries (or all the services it provides) for python

03:52:34 [sbp]

if you go nuts, sure

03:52:40 [jeremiah]

what do you mean?

03:52:42 [sbp]

Jython, perhaps?

03:52:51 [jeremiah]

yeah probably Jython

03:53:09 [sbp]

I mean: why would you want Java in Python?

03:53:17 [jeremiah]

I wouldn't

03:53:19 [jeremiah]

the java libraries

03:53:29 [jeremiah]

like, so you don't have to rethink how to write stuff

03:53:32 [jeremiah]

so it flows naturally

03:53:47 [sbp]

the Java libraries are pretty awful, IMO

03:53:53 [jeremiah]

oh

03:53:59 [sbp]

I warn you, I am not a Java fan

03:54:52 [jeremiah]

oh

03:54:57 [sbp]

you can imagine me getting into Java. I'm like "O.K., I want to make a list of five strings, and then take some slices etc."

03:55:12 [sbp]

so off I go with String[]

03:55:16 [sbp]

then I move onto vector

03:55:21 [sbp]

then some hair pulling

03:55:34 [sbp]

then I just denounce Java for the pile of shit that it is

03:55:41 [jeremiah]

yeah

03:55:48 [jeremiah]

I think it's a really good idea

03:55:51 [jeremiah]

but no one wants a monopoly

03:55:53 [jeremiah]

that's the problem

03:56:17 [jeremiah]

I like it more than C or C++

03:56:51 [sbp]

I haven't used C++ all that much...

03:57:19 [sbp]

but it's fast, and you get executables out of it than can be run the world over

03:57:33 [jeremiah]

yeah

03:58:08 [sbp]

whereas Java *claims* to be portable, but if you try to implement anything that makes calls to the environment for something etc., it tends to bork easily

03:58:29 [jeremiah]

well it's more portable than c++

03:58:34 [jeremiah]

although still not that portable

03:58:37 [jeremiah]

and the GUI sucks dick

03:58:43 [sbp]

heh, heh

04:00:37 [jeremiah]

althought compsci is probably the best career path fo rme

04:00:40 [jeremiah]

I still think it sucks

04:00:47 [jeremiah]

that sums up how I feel

04:00:55 [sbp]

:-)

04:00:56 [jeremiah]

it sucks less than everything else, but still sucks a lot

04:01:30 [sbp]

win the lottery

04:01:36 [jeremiah]

yeah

04:01:55 [jeremiah]

all these dumb colleges are sending me emails now

04:01:59 [jeremiah]

they want me to go there

04:02:20 [sbp]

heh, heh. it's college admission time, is it?

04:02:31 [jeremiah]

I'm a junior

04:02:46 [sbp]

pardon?

04:03:10 [sbp]

i18nize, please

04:03:21 [jeremiah]

with the second-highest psat in my class, although it wasn't too good

04:03:21 [jeremiah]

11th grade, we go to college after 12th grade

04:03:21 [jeremiah]

what?

04:03:37 [sbp]

internationalize

04:03:42 [sbp]

but you already did

04:03:50 [jeremiah]

I am in the 11th grade, i took my PSAT, which comes before the SAT this year

04:03:55 [jeremiah]

PSAT judges how well you will do on the SAT

04:04:14 [deltab]

sbp: i11lize

04:04:30 [jeremiah]

so I'm getting lots of emails from ghetto colleges that want me to go to them

04:04:32 [sbp]

deltab: good point

04:04:50 [sbp]

* sbp forgot about the ization deeley

04:04:53 [jeremiah]

actually columbia sent me an email, i might actually like going there

04:05:00 [deltab]

er, 12

04:05:22 [sbp]

11, surely?

04:05:30 [deltab]

yeah, 11 not including l

04:05:49 [sbp]

so 11

04:05:50 [jeremiah]

I'm sort of worried about moving to new york though

04:06:17 [sbp]

camp out in Central Park!

04:06:18 [jeremiah]

the whole "dying of a biological terrorism" thing doesn't make me too chipper

04:06:24 [jeremiah]

s/a/

04:07:12 [sbp]

Go to Harvard. Boston! MA!

04:07:35 [jeremiah]

my sister lives in boston

04:07:39 [jeremiah]

harvard is a bit pricey for undergrad

04:07:46 [sbp]

yeah

04:07:52 [jeremiah]

my brother might go there for law school

04:09:37 [jeremiah]

columbia wants you to take a lot of SAT tests

04:09:42 [sbp]

ugh

04:10:01 [jeremiah]

well, the SAT then three SAT II classes

04:11:08 [AaronSw]

Heh, I'd feel uncomfortable using jboss or j2ee, but not Zope.

04:11:19 [jeremiah]

AaronSw: yeah, and you're weird

04:11:27 [AaronSw]

:-) and proud of it

04:11:29 [jeremiah]

* jeremiah giggles and then apolgizes

04:11:35 [AaronSw]

Guido: gawky and proud of it

04:11:48 [jeremiah]

AaronSw: where do you want to go to college?

04:12:09 [AaronSw]

I dunno. MIT and Caltech sound cool. Cambridge, MA is a great place.

04:12:19 [jeremiah]

yeah

04:13:18 [jeremiah]

ok

04:14:44 [jeremiah]

yeah

04:15:40 [sbp]

[OLM]

04:15:41 [jeremiah]

future log readers: I'm not talking to myself, don't worry.

04:18:13 [jeremiah]

* jeremiah is away: sleeping

04:44:47 [sbp]

Hmm... how do I cat a set oif files in reverse order?

04:45:03 [deltab]

sbp: which reverse order?

04:45:20 [sbp]

Hmm... perhaps cat `ls blargh* -r` ?

04:45:26 [sbp]

reverse order by name

04:46:13 [deltab]

yes

04:46:16 [sbp]

yep, that worked. Phew

04:46:50 [deltab]

though you'll need an extra option to get the quoting

04:47:44 [AaronSw]

ooh, irby video!

04:50:10 [sbp]

to get the quoting?

04:50:23 [deltab]

if you have e.g. spaces in the names

04:50:24 [AaronSw]

how much is 10460104 (bytes, I assume)

04:50:30 [sbp]

ah, right

04:50:40 [sbp]

no spaces in any of the names, so that's alright

04:50:49 [sbp]

about 9MB?

04:51:13 [deltab]

AaronSw: in what?

04:51:26 [sbp]

is the size of Irby's video, which I'm guessing you're refering to

04:51:27 [AaronSw]

in GB

04:51:34 [AaronSw]

10GB?

04:51:38 [AaronSw]

that doesn't seem right

04:51:50 [deltab]

0.0097

04:52:26 [sbp]

what's it for?

04:52:33 [AaronSw]

it's the size of my archiver database

04:52:53 [AaronSw]

well, it's definitely bigger than 1 gig, so maybe it's in kbytes

04:52:53 [deltab]

how are you getting that number?

04:52:59 [AaronSw]

using du -Hsc

04:53:18 [deltab]

you're not using GNU du, I think

04:53:19 [AaronSw]

eek! maybe it is 10GB...

04:53:30 [AaronSw]

no, I'm using BSD experimental

04:53:32 [sbp]

Hmm... Winerlog is back up

04:53:41 [AaronSw]

(i.e. the crazy mac os x version)

04:53:45 [deltab]

-H only works in GNU

04:53:48 [sbp]

"""What another load of crap. Dave, once again, writes a crappy survey. As usual, Dave tries to reinforce his lame ideas by using questions designed not to survey but to confirm."""

04:53:51 [AaronSw]

--

04:53:52 [AaronSw]

-H Symbolic links on the command line are followed. (Symbolic links

04:53:52 [AaronSw]

encountered in the tree traversal are not followed.)

04:53:53 [AaronSw]

--

04:53:58 [AaronSw]

in the BSD Experimental manpage

04:53:58 [deltab]

heh

04:54:09 [sbp]

- http://winerlog.weblogger.com/2002/02/21

04:54:29 [AaronSw]

ah, 512-byte blocks

04:54:34 [AaronSw]

so it's 5GB

05:03:44 [sbp]

Dogma 2000 scares me a little, because it is to some extent true

05:03:46 [sbp]

then again, I'd rather people posted something on the Web in plain text than in some really crappy HTML

05:03:50 [sbp]

so perhaps they should say that

05:03:53 [sbp]

I don't agree that it's worth just slapping any old inaccessible junk out there, because it's not difficult to learn HTML

05:03:57 [sbp]

I mean, all you need is like hx, p, em, and a

05:04:00 [sbp]

if you really *just* want to publish your information, there's no point being an idiot about it and using purple text on a green background, with flashy images and background music. But a lot of people do. Odd, isn't it?

05:04:03 [sbp]

where's that DanC quote about the Flash "under construction" thing?

05:06:25 [sbp]

I've come across a few pages that have a lot of useful information, but are actually unusable because of the +6 font tags, and odd color schemes. Sometimes I just copy and paste the text into an editor, or do a bit of code deleting...

05:06:57 [sbp]

but there are borderlines cases where I think it's just not worth it, and go search someplace else for it

05:07:57 [sbp]

heh: http://dogma2000.cx/d2kpi.jpg

05:09:46 [sbp]

I think that it is a barrier for some that the Web seems complex, though

05:09:51 [sbp]

when really, it's not

05:10:15 [sbp]

it's a bit silly that free server space is not easier to come by, though

05:10:33 [sbp]

by "free server space", I mean decent banner-free server space

05:10:51 [AaronSw]

Plex!

05:11:01 [sbp]

well, when you consider what web.archive.org do, it makes you wonder why they don't just let people set up site there

05:11:08 [AaronSw]

Heh, yeah...

05:11:09 [sbp]

Plex is coming...

05:11:33 [AaronSw]

But if web.archive did that they'd probably be really overloaded

05:12:11 [sbp]

I don't think so. People could bombard it with like 1TB if information or something... but how much do they have already? How much do they index every day?

05:12:42 [AaronSw]

The issue is not storage, it's retrieval.

05:12:49 [sbp]

good point

05:12:52 [AaronSw]

If I hosted my cool and popular website there, they'd be hammered for bandwidth.

05:13:03 [AaronSw]

Not like they aren't already.

05:13:14 [hazmat]

hazmat (~chatzilla@adsl-66-123-57-58.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) has joined #swhack

05:13:21 [sbp]

cool and popular website: hypothetically speaking? :-)

05:13:36 [AaronSw]

yeah...

05:14:04 [sbp]

I wonder how many people use it? do they give stats. like that out?

05:14:33 [hazmat]

.time

05:14:33 [xena]

2002/02/22 05:16:01.71455 Universal

05:14:48 [hazmat]

hi folks

05:14:48 [AaronSw]

hi hazmat

05:14:51 [sbp]

Hi

05:14:54 [AaronSw]

long time, no see

05:15:33 [hazmat]

i've been on extended vacation

05:15:48 [hazmat]

3 weeks of travels to the east coast, conferences, sprints, and friends.

05:16:48 [sbp]

how was it?

05:17:16 [sbp]

wow, your nick backwards is tamzah

05:17:24 [sbp]

oh wow, mine is PBS!

05:17:58 [sbp]

[insert conspiracy theories here]

05:18:00 [hazmat]

the sprint was awesome, the conference was cool (i drank a bit too much ;), friends were great

05:18:27 [hazmat]

i tend to have a small attention span for most talks, so i spend alot of time hopping speakers so to speak at conferences.

05:18:54 [sbp]

Hmm... AaronS backwards is SnoraA

05:19:03 [hazmat]

the twisted guys are out to take over the world (but thats no surprise).

05:19:12 [sbp]

ooh, you spoke to the Twisted guys?

05:19:15 [hazmat]

the sprint, learned alot, did a little.

05:19:19 [sbp]

what were they like?

05:19:23 [hazmat]

twisted.

05:19:25 [hazmat]

;)

05:19:26 [sbp]

heh

05:19:33 [AaronSw]

Heh @ snota

05:19:45 [hazmat]

there all lovers of lisp if you scratch a little.

05:19:46 [AaronSw]

The twisted guys tried to take over our code.

05:19:57 [hazmat]

s/there/their

05:20:03 [sbp]

they're

05:20:14 [hazmat]

hey... that to. :-)

05:20:22 [hazmat]

not that there is anything wrong with that imo.

05:20:24 [sbp]

too

05:20:27 [AaronSw]

PBS are the initials of UserLand's big developer Brent Simmons. [more conspiracy theories]

05:20:36 [sbp]

ooh, indeed

05:21:08 [sbp]

.botsnack

05:21:10 [hazmat]

glyph was interesting, radix and dash seemed both young and smart, itamar was itamar.

05:21:32 [AaronSw]

Hm.

05:21:44 [hazmat]

probably the most interesting talk i heard was by this guy kevin jacobs from the opal group

05:21:50 [hazmat]

.google the opal group

05:21:52 [xena]

the opal group: http://www.theopalgroup.com/index.shtml

05:22:04 [hazmat]

gallery.theopalgroup.com

05:22:25 [AaronSw]

Cool, I like young energetic smart people. Like blanu...

05:22:28 [hazmat]

his talk was about using python for integration.

05:22:32 [sbp]

heh, heh:-

05:22:32 [sbp]

[05:21] <sbp> .excuse

05:22:32 [sbp]

[05:21] <xena> sbp, windows 95 undocumented "feature"

05:22:39 [hazmat]

of complex business backends.

05:22:58 [hazmat]

james tauber never showed up, which was a major disappointment for me.

05:23:24 [hazmat]

i got to have lunch with paul prescod and duncan grisby (corba @ att @ uk) which was nice.

05:23:34 [hazmat]

and i'll stop boring you guys if this is not interesting ;)

05:24:12 [hazmat]

so are you folks going to enter the google contest ??

05:24:22 [sbp]

here's a challenge for the avian IP lot:-

05:24:23 [sbp]

[05:23] <sbp> .excuse

05:24:23 [sbp]

[05:23] <xena> sbp, network down, ip packets delivered via ups

05:24:46 [hazmat]

.excuse

05:24:47 [xena]

hazmat, my pony-tail hit the on/off switch on the power strip.

05:25:21 [AaronSw]

hazmat, is this all at python10?

05:25:54 [hazmat]

yes.

05:26:04 [AaronSw]

please go on - it's really interesting

05:26:07 [sbp]

did you see the TimBL keynote?

05:26:07 [AaronSw]

prescod: cool!

05:27:16 [hazmat]

i saw timBl talk, but quite honestly i think it was inappriopiate... mainly because it was incredibly boring... not disrespect intended to timBL, but it was kinda of excruciating for me.

05:28:01 [sbp]

heh. I'd have been on the edge of my seat

05:28:45 [hazmat]

last years closing address by bruce eckel (slides online) was much more interesting. timBL talked about rdf and python support for graphs, and module imports from a url namespace for dynamic loading of components from urls.

05:30:10 [sbp]

.google Python keynote bruce eckel slides

05:30:11 [xena]

Python keynote bruce eckel slides: http://www.mindview.net/Books/Python/ThinkingInPython.html

05:30:21 [hazmat]

something like that. lunch with paul and duncan was fairly interesting contrasting web services models and corba systems, distributed transactions systems, and trust models for software components.

05:30:34 [AaronSw]

Yeah, I guess TimBL isn't a riveting python speaker

05:30:37 [hazmat]

i think its a zip called LovePython.zip

05:31:09 [hazmat]

he added that disclaimer at the start.

05:32:14 [hazmat]

kevin's slides http://www.python.org/workshops/2002-02/

05:32:21 [hazmat]

and some others as well.

05:33:44 [hazmat]

the transaction bof was cool, as was the twisted one. distributed txn framewarks are basically impossible. interesting mention of a proof of incompatilbity between locking and timestamp based systems, lots of name droping. twisted bof was where i first met all the twisted members.

05:33:53 [hazmat]

we went out to sushi later in the week.

05:34:16 [hazmat]

500.00 bill :( ouch

05:35:07 [sbp]

500? eek

05:35:09 [tansaku1a]

tansaku1a (~sam@mtl10gw.mtl.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp) has joined #swhack

05:35:11 [hazmat]

the new profiler looked interesting.

05:35:30 [hazmat]

apparently the old one prior to 2.1.2 wasn't very accurate.

05:35:54 [hazmat]

* hazmat looks for his conference schedule.

05:37:52 [hazmat]

i went to the wingide talk which was pretty cool. i'm really amazed by it. 4suite guys were also interesting, more just to hear what kinda of market their in and what kinda of environment they're creating for xml programmers.

05:38:26 [hazmat]

i skipped most of the zope stuff.

05:39:09 [hazmat]

gave two impromptu talks, one an event channel in zope, and another on developers day as a lightning talk about gideon (codename for the python repository)

05:40:47 [AaronSw]

ugh, debian doesn't have xconfigurator

05:40:49 [hazmat]

thats pretty much all my conference stories other than meeting people and doing lots of drinking.

05:41:35 [AaronSw]

python repository?

05:41:40 [AaronSw]

like CPAN for python?

05:41:46 [AaronSw]

ooh! ooh! ooh!

05:42:43 [hazmat]

i'll be making a download available tomorrow, its packaged as a single zope product to encourage other developers to help out (blatant hint ;)

05:43:00 [AaronSw]

is there a client?

05:43:41 [hazmat]

one of the major tenants is that it doesn't dictate the client, the client can be whatever, the server needs to support multiple metadata formats and multiple client apis.

05:44:07 [AaronSw]

Cool. RDF is one, right?

05:44:08 [AaronSw]

;-)

05:44:11 [hazmat]

currently supporting pep241 metadata, ciphon metadata, and osd (activestate's) metadata.

05:44:11 [AaronSw]

heh, funny stuff: http://twistedmatrix.com/users/glyph/ipc10/photos/

05:44:49 [hazmat]

for client apis, just an xml-rpc one at the moment, a soap one and one supporting the sean's pep on swallow will be added latter.

05:45:12 [hazmat]

i've spent alot of time just making zope work the way i want it to more than writing the actual package infrastructure... sigh.

05:46:29 [hazmat]

sweet, i escaped their cameras...

05:46:59 [hazmat]

more pics http://www.zope.org/Members/Caseman/Photos/Python10

05:47:43 [hazmat]

a pic of myself and jim working at the sprint http://www.zope.org/Members/Caseman/Photos/Sprint1/index_html?photo=2&photo_count=8

05:48:24 [AaronSw]

you're the one towards the camera, right?

05:49:56 [AaronSw]

What's Paul got? Zope Soap?

05:49:59 [hazmat]

yes

05:50:03 [AaronSw]

Zope on a rope!

05:50:04 [hazmat]

yup.

05:50:05 [AaronSw]

http://www.zope.org/Members/Caseman/Photos/Python10/index_html?photo=6&photo_count=8

05:50:16 [AaronSw]

That is an awful URI, BTW.

05:50:18 [AaronSw]

A disgrace to Zope.

05:50:26 [hazmat]

;)

05:50:43 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw downloads the Python movie

05:50:49 [hazmat]

where?

05:50:58 [AaronSw]

http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/multimedia/video/obp/IntroducingPython.mpg

05:59:28 [AaronSw]

lol, this is an awesome sign to hold up: http://twistedmatrix.com/users/glyph/ipc10/photos/Large/AllenGreets.jpeg

06:04:33 [AaronSw]

dircproxy upgrade today

06:04:49 [AaronSw]

Ooh, dircproxy has moved to its own domain.

06:06:30 [AaronSw]

apt needs a changelog function. I want to ask it "What's new in this version?"

06:09:12 [AaronSw]

Heh, this Introducing Python is cool.

06:12:11 [AaronSw]

Cute girl: "Are you still using that program[ing language] that sounds like G++? [...] That is so 20 minutes ago! Here, have a slide rule."

06:13:35 [AaronSw]

Girl: "You can come over at eight o'clock tonight."

06:13:35 [AaronSw]

Guy: "But that's when Voyager is on!"

06:14:21 [sbp]

heh, heh

06:15:42 [sbp]

Gotta run

06:15:49 [AaronSw]

Lot's of Monty Python-esque animations

06:15:58 [AaronSw]

"Let the Snake be your teacher!"

06:16:54 [AaronSw]

lol, her dad is a hippie

06:20:14 [AaronSw]

Guido: "I think in 1993, I was getting email from people who were teaching Python to their six or eight year old children

06:20:16 [AaronSw]

"

06:21:35 [AaronSw]

Barry Warsaw: "It can spread like a virus"

06:21:59 [AaronSw]

They have all these cute girls who said that Python was fun.

06:22:54 [hazmat]

i heard it was hillarious... gotta see it sometime.

06:25:06 [AaronSw]

ESR: I have a theorem prover that makes deductions and calculates side-effects -- it's an artificial intelligence thing -- to build linux kernels in Python. less than 6000 lines of code

06:25:17 [AaronSw]

with GUI code

06:25:45 [AaronSw]

err 5000

06:25:55 [AaronSw]

Mr. T: I pity the fool that doesn't use Python

06:28:12 [hazmat]

lol

06:30:54 [AaronSw]

Aww, he writes her an obfuscated Python script to print out a love poem

06:33:50 [AaronSw]

Paul: Python is our secret weapon!

06:35:02 [AaronSw]

Some guy: "Peace, Love, Python"

06:35:24 [AaronSw]

Background music: all we are saying, is give (screamed) Python (/screamed) a chance

06:36:40 [AaronSw]

lol

06:36:59 [AaronSw]

Python Hand Puppet: Simba! You have deliberately disobeyed me. And what is worse, you have put Nalaa in danger.

06:42:18 [redmonk]

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06:43:49 [AaronSw]

g'nite all

06:47:45 [hazmat]

NITE

06:55:13 [redmonk]

nite

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13:55:03 [Morbus]

AaronSw, get your irq stuff straightened out?

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14:21:33 [AaronSw]

Morbus, yes, thanks

14:22:02 [Morbus]

awesome.

14:22:19 [AaronSw]

now we just need to find some decent X settings...

14:22:33 [AaronSw]

(it's never over is it)

14:22:44 [Morbus]

heh, heh. you use X? <G>

14:22:53 [Morbus]

i use OS X :)

14:23:00 [Morbus]

there's some open source design award category at apple.com now.

14:23:54 [AaronSw]

yeah, I saw

14:24:02 [AaronSw]

I wish I had the time to enter.

14:24:08 [AaronSw]

i love those awards

14:33:44 [AaronSw]

Anyone know how to quit out of X if the monitor isn't working?

14:33:57 [AaronSw]

Do I have to catch it at boot time or something?

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14:47:31 [AaronSw]

ugh, i lost IRQ roulette this boot

14:49:42 [Morbus]

AaronSw: ctrl alt del gets outta it on my box

14:49:48 [Morbus]

er no wait.

14:49:50 [Morbus]

bckspace.

14:49:54 [Morbus]

it was very similar <g>

14:49:57 [AaronSw]

Heh,

14:50:10 [AaronSw]

I went over and started hitting random keys and it worked. ;-)

14:50:13 [Morbus]

hehehe

14:52:19 [AaronSw]

Ugh, now it doesn't seem to have an IRQ and I get "No such device"

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18:57:24 [sbp]

Gotta run

19:01:02 [AaronSw]

I think that all right-thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that ordinary decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I'm certainly not. But I'm sick and tired of being told that I am.

19:01:06 [AaronSw]

- Monty Python

20:49:06 [Morbus]

quiet.

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21:53:56 [AaronSw]

My top secret project appears to be liked

21:55:24 [AaronSw]

enough for me to fly out there

21:59:14 [bijan]

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22:01:10 [AaronSw]

hey bijan

22:01:16 [bijan]

Hey aaron

22:02:31 [bijan]

So, I here tim is going to rewrite CWM in C (eek!)

22:02:43 [AaronSw]

Heh.

22:02:58 [AaronSw]

He did threaten to, after someone said their --think took over half an hour

22:03:12 [bijan]

hmm. Any test cases of long thinks?

22:03:15 [AaronSw]

he actually said "C or machine code" I think.

22:03:21 [bijan]

silly

22:03:23 [AaronSw]

it used to be 7 minutes before he "fixed" some bugs

22:03:43 [bijan]

So he crapped it out :)

22:03:58 [AaronSw]

I suspect some time with the python profiler should fix things up

22:04:05 [bijan]

yah.

22:04:16 [bijan]

I suspect rewriting query so it was intelligible would help :)

22:04:27 [AaronSw]

heh!

22:05:01 [AaronSw]

i suspect learning some more of the functions implemented in C would be good too :)

22:05:03 [bijan]

it would be nice to be able to swap out some datastructures

22:05:13 [bijan]

Well, exactly!

22:05:22 [bijan]

I keep pointing at kwjbuckets.

22:05:33 [bijan]

Which has native python and c accelerated functions for graphs.

22:05:43 [bijan]

Among other things.

22:06:04 [AaronSw]

Hm.

22:06:13 [AaronSw]

Guido had some speedy Python code for graphs

22:06:19 [AaronSw]

.google guido graphs python

22:06:20 [xena]

guido graphs python: http://www.python.org/doc/essays

22:06:30 [AaronSw]

http://www.python.org/doc/essays/graphs.html

22:06:55 [bijan]

I mean, kjbuckucts is the foundation for gadfly, a SQL RDBMS

22:07:16 [AaronSw]

Neat. Gadfly is fun.

22:07:29 [bijan]

IIRC, N3 probably isn't must stronger than the relational algebra.

22:07:41 [bijan]

Of course, the common operations will be a tad different.

22:08:12 [bijan]

Maybe I'll hack them into sbp's clone.

22:09:10 [bijan]

Ugh. I don't get default namespaces in n3.

22:09:20 [AaronSw]

Why not?

22:09:41 [bijan]

Well, because I've pretty much ignored them until now :)

22:09:53 [bijan]

Ok, <> is the documents uri.

22:10:09 [bijan]

Or is it the *context's* uri?

22:10:23 [AaronSw]

nope, this is the context

22:10:27 [bijan]

How is it different from this.

22:10:28 [bijan]

Heh.

22:10:29 [AaronSw]

i.e. the symbol 'this'

22:10:42 [bijan]

So, at the top level, <> = 'this'

22:10:53 [AaronSw]

Um. Probably.

22:11:08 [AaronSw]

Actually, the root context probably has some weird URI of its own.

22:11:36 [bijan]

Really?

22:11:49 [bijan]

What's the different between the root context and the document?

22:12:12 [AaronSw]

one is a generic Resource, the other is a context

22:12:32 [bijan]

Ok, but the with something like: <#title>

22:12:42 [bijan]

is it rooted in the root context or in the document?

22:13:00 [bijan]

Will anyone complain if I shove an explicit uri in there?

22:13:02 [AaronSw]

<#title> resolves to: <URIofDocument#title>

22:13:24 [bijan]

Why that instead of the cont...

22:13:27 [bijan]

ah.

22:13:33 [bijan]

The Context isn't the namespace.

22:13:35 [bijan]

Bleah.

22:13:37 [AaronSw]

yeah.

22:13:49 [AaronSw]

a context is the relation between variables and a formula... or is it the other way around?

22:13:56 [bijan]

Er..

22:14:03 [bijan]

A context is a container of formulae, yes?

22:14:06 [bijan]

A set of them.

22:14:25 [AaronSw]

FORMULA = 1 # A { } set of statements

22:14:40 [bijan]

Let's call a set of RDF statements a formula. The formula a statement is in is its context.

22:14:41 [bijan]

Ouch.

22:14:57 [AaronSw]

that appears to be the usage in the code

22:15:05 [AaronSw]

CONTEXT = 0

22:15:12 [AaronSw]

<AaronSw> # The statement is stored as a quad - affectionately known as a triple ;-)

22:15:12 [AaronSw]

<AaronSw> # offsets when a statement is stored as a Python tuple (c, p, s, o)

22:15:12 [AaronSw]

<AaronSw> CONTEXT = 0

22:16:09 [bijan]

Damn.

22:16:17 [bijan]

that makes it harder given my current design.

22:17:33 [bijan]

The real problem is the rdf_db stores everything as uris.

22:17:44 [bijan]

So I can't simply defer.

22:17:53 [AaronSw]

hm.

22:17:58 [AaronSw]

defer to what?

22:18:13 [bijan]

Well, I could just pop a variable in.

22:18:41 [bijan]

That way I wouldn't have to make up or determine a real namespace.

22:19:42 [AaronSw]

This is all tangential to default namespaces though, right?

22:19:54 [bijan]

is it?

22:20:03 [bijan]

I need to handle three things:

22:20:05 [bijan]

<>

22:20:08 [bijan]

<#foo>

22:20:15 [bijan]

and :foo

22:20:24 [bijan]

Hmm. And @prefix : <#>

22:20:26 [bijan]

4 things :)

22:20:28 [AaronSw]

OK, do you have the base URI of documents you parse?

22:20:35 [bijan]

Of course not.

22:20:43 [AaronSw]

Well, you'll need to get that.

22:20:45 [AaronSw]

;-)

22:20:56 [bijan]

What's the base uri of a document you're composing at a repl

22:21:07 [bijan]

You see, if I could pop a variable in, then I could defer.

22:21:17 [AaronSw]

I see what you mean now.

22:21:21 [bijan]

i'll have to make up some arbitrary filler :)_

22:21:39 [AaronSw]

the base URI TimBL uses is the current directory

22:21:42 [AaronSw]

in my case: file:/Users/aaronsw/Projects/cwm/swap/

22:21:57 [bijan]

Yes, but Tim is file oriented :)

22:21:58 [bijan]

I'm not!

22:22:18 [bijan]

May as well genid.

22:22:34 [AaronSw]

Hm, yeah.

22:23:10 [bijan]

Ok, two rules, yes?

22:23:25 [bijan]

<#> always gets the docuemnt namespace prefixed

22:23:53 [bijan]

And thus @prefix : <#> is the same as @prefix : <documentuit#>?

22:23:58 [bijan]

Yick.

22:23:59 [AaronSw]

<#> returns joinURI(baseURI, '#') where joinURI is defined in RFC2396

22:24:04 [AaronSw]

basically, yes

22:24:15 [AaronSw]

the only special case is when the baseURI has a # in it already

22:24:20 [AaronSw]

in which case you lop that off

22:24:23 [bijan]

Heh.

22:24:59 [bijan]

I suppose I could let the user supply a baseURI

22:25:11 [AaronSw]

cwm lets you do that

22:25:39 [bijan]

* bijan notes that just because these are the boring parts is no reason for them to be illdesigned

22:25:47 [bijan]

Of course, that's as much to me as to anyone :)

22:26:04 [AaronSw]

Heh.

22:26:25 [bijan]

hmm. I can't use a faux uri, as I do check for uriness.

22:35:25 [bijan]

Oh, damn...

23:26:43 [AaronSw]

That's all from me for this week. See you later.

23:33:24 [sbp]

* sbp waves

23:34:51 [sbp]

* sbp catches up a bit from the logs

23:35:42 [bijan]

Hey sean

23:37:22 [bijan]

Check out: http://lambda.weblogs.com/discuss/msgReader$2833

23:38:24 [sbp]

* sbp reads it

23:38:58 [sbp]

oh wow. Reminds me of Blindfold

23:40:33 [sbp]

Hmm... I should mail this to PF - they'll be interested in the accessibility ramifications

23:40:40 [bijan]

PF?

23:42:50 [sbp]

WAI Protocols and Formats Working Group

23:52:02 [sbp]

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23:52:18 [sbp]

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23:53:10 [sbp]

On the porting to C: Tim was actually in fine fettle today. He made another funny on www-tag: "(more random thoughts ... IMHO this does not consitute "institutional" commitment!)"

23:53:21 [bijan]

Heh.

23:53:24 [sbp]

that was a quip in reply to Simon St. L

23:53:26 [bijan]

But he *is* director.

23:53:34 [bijan]

yes, I saw the DanC reply too.

23:53:43 [sbp]

heh, heh

23:54:01 [bijan]

And there *aren't* enough IMO, IMO.

23:54:18 [sbp]

enough what? institutional commitments? :-)

23:54:27 [bijan]

No, IMOs ;_)

23:54:27 [sbp]

oh, enough "IMO"s

23:54:46 [sbp]

* sbp got it,#; a little slow perhaps...

23:56:54 [sbp]

so, how's the CWMClone going?

23:57:07 [bijan]

eh, not done much.

23:57:22 [bijan]

Doing a little tonight toward document uris and default prefixes.

23:57:49 [bijan]

BRBRB

23:57:49 [bijan]

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23:58:14 [sbp]

wow, he leaves really abruptly :-)

23:58:26 [sbp]

last time, I thought I'd pissed him off or something