00:01:20 tansaku (~sam@h134-249.tokyu-net.catv.ne.jp) has joined #swhack 00:48:47 tansaku has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:01:06 jeremiah, i saw, i downloaded, tav and i got into a heated discussion with the creator and went away 01:01:52 it's interesting that they made /. tho 01:04:05 where was it on /.? 01:05:01 I dunno, i saw it on the rss channel 01:05:27 cuz i odn't see it when i search 01:05:28 AaronSw: have you done any java coding? 01:05:38 not really, sbp's done more than i 01:05:44 the circle is python, btw 01:06:00 i was going to use it, but the code is so messy i didn't bother 01:06:00 hmm 01:06:05 heh 01:06:21 well, I have this fairly 'enterprise' app I'm going to be working on, for said large company 01:06:34 i don't recall you saying a large company 01:06:47 hmm 01:06:48 me neither 01:06:57 {semanticize, napsterize, DeMorganize} your enterprise! 01:07:07 err, no 01:07:36 semantic web stuff is a bit too [expirimental | useless | flakey] for this client 01:07:37 :) 01:07:52 about circle: maybe slashdot pulled the article... 01:07:54 I'm getting out all my enterprise java bean jokes 01:08:13 maybe it's not on the front page... that seems to happen sometimes 01:08:20 hmm 01:08:26 well, right now they need a hardcore CMS 01:08:32 which is what they have, but I need to redo some of it 01:08:37 Ah. 01:08:38 i'm leaning towards python 01:09:05 Zope could be good for that. 01:09:10 hmm 01:09:12 it could be 01:09:16 Cool! Guido won a FSF award. "The selection comittee incluedd: Miguel de Icaza, Ian Murdock, Eric Raymond, Peter Salus, Vernor Vinge, and Larry Wall." That's a pretty awesome selection comittee. 01:09:18 but we already have most of the stuffwe need in place 01:09:53 and? 01:19:24 * jeremiah reads up on zope 01:21:44 gotta run: dinner 01:22:05 ok 01:22:24 wmf (wesf@cs242733-11.austin.rr.com) has joined #swhack 01:22:31 swhack! 01:22:39 hey 01:22:43 aaron just ran off to dinner 01:22:55 he's working on convincing me to use zope for an upcoming project 01:23:14 zope is cool 01:23:22 seem so 01:23:33 I feel uncomfortable using someone elses cms though, for some reason 01:24:21 well if you want to spend >$10K to write a CMS, more power to you 01:24:41 well, what I need isn't really a cms, is the thing, so I'm not sure 01:24:49 ah 01:25:00 http://designmasters.superb.net/catalogue.php 01:25:05 it's more of a "database driven site" 01:26:52 * jeremiah is still trying to figure out what zope has to offer 01:52:12 * jeremiah is back (gone 05:06:38) 01:52:17 * jeremiah is away: time for bed 02:00:28 wmf! 02:00:41 hey AaronSw 02:00:42 Zope isn't a CMS! 02:00:45 wtf wmf! 02:00:49 heh 02:00:49 wfm! 02:01:26 jer here was saying there was an article about "The Circle" on /. but i couldn't ifnd it. Have you seen it, wmf? 02:01:26 .acronym wfm 02:01:27 wfm: Works For Me, Wait for Me (Internet chat), What Freakin' Manual? (response to RTFM), Wired For Management (Intel), Women's FIDE Master, Work Force Management, Workflow Management, Workflow Manager 02:01:36 .acronym wtf 02:01:38 wtf: What The Freak (polite form), Waste Treatment Facility, Way To Fail, What If, What's This For?, When The Freak (polite form), Where the Freak (polite form), Where's the Food?, Where's the Fridge?, Why the Failure, Why The Freak (polite form), Wisconsin Test Facility, World Taekwon Do Federation, World Tennis Federation 02:01:47 sbp coiled Well Freak Me (polite form) 02:01:51 err coined 02:02:03 hmm, I saw an article about the circle somewhere recently... 02:02:50 Hm. 02:03:01 so, is wmf short for What, Mother Freaker! 02:03:42 except you have to imitate Samuel L Jackson when you say it 02:06:09 GabeW: what's your advogato account? 02:06:28 gwachob 02:06:49 wmf: re Samuel L Jackson - **Exactly** 02:06:58 Woo! You certified me as a Master. 02:07:00 :-) 02:07:24 that means I have to anti-certify AaronSw now... 02:07:27 :-) 02:07:32 hey now... 02:07:44 that won't work cuz the algorithm treats it as a minimum cerification 02:08:07 I know 02:08:28 AaronSw doesn't seem to have another job besides writing code so according to the advogato system, I rated him master\ 02:08:34 heh heh 02:09:32 I don't understand the advogato system at all - all I know is that there is some ego to preserve!!! ;-) 02:10:07 I don't like the new weights; I think the system was working fine before raph messed with it 02:11:20 I'm a master in disguise, really 02:11:46 i'd be a master if it weren't for all the time I waste in irc 02:11:56 yeah, thats the ticket 02:12:15 redmonk (~steve@ip68-2-192-160.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #swhack 02:12:31 hi all - what's the party for? 02:12:38 party? 02:12:50 wmf tells me there's a party going on over here 02:12:54 * sbp breaks out the hats, party poppers, and wine 02:12:58 Oh, right. 02:13:06 * wmf chuckles 02:13:13 we're having a cert party 02:13:18 real cert-lovin 02:13:33 what cert? 02:14:03 on advogato 02:15:26 amk on the zen of python: "Don't take these 19 aphorisms too seriously -- tattooing them on your body is probably a bad idea, for example -- but it's instructive to contemplate them." 02:15:33 redmonk, do you have an advogato account 02:15:34 ooh, I think my builtins work 02:15:38 * AaronSw goes crazy with the certs 02:15:44 sbp, do you have an advogato account? 02:15:49 wow, they have! 02:15:53 asw: no 02:16:00 no, I don't 02:18:21 should i? 02:18:37 ooh, new RDF model theory draft 02:18:50 Heh, do you read them? 02:19:01 I might read this one 02:19:13 Pat's got a datatypes proposal almost done too... 02:19:27 It's scary, after months and months we might be done. 02:22:52 advogato certs are messed, since we cert people based on their coding time, but this really gives them priveledges to write to the site 02:23:01 i want good writers writing, not good coders 02:23:29 hm. good point. 02:23:49 i was just reading the cert pages 02:23:54 I don't want to read stuff from good writers who can't code on advogato. they have plenty of other forums 02:23:55 however - congrats aaron 02:24:02 on what? 02:24:18 wmf, ok, well both. coders who have interesting things to say, perhaps 02:24:24 nevermind 02:24:37 i don't care if you're a master. I don't want you spamming advogato with your get rich quick schemes. 02:25:39 hopefully it would only happen once 02:26:20 AaronSw: you have get-rich-quick schemes? 02:26:31 Unfortunately, no. 02:26:37 hehe 02:27:04 cuz if you did, you should post it to slashdot! 02:27:40 * AaronSw certs accordianguy 02:28:26 hm. 02:28:59 (not flamebait> advogato alwys seemed a bit of a mutual admiration society to me 02:29:21 we prefer to think of it as the hacker illuminati :-) 02:29:34 does anything really depend on an advagato cert? 02:29:46 your write access to the front page 02:30:05 is that all? 02:30:30 afaik 02:30:34 i don't mean to make light of it... 02:30:43 just trying to see the point 02:31:11 I think the point of the site was mostly to test raph's algorithms 02:31:15 Indeed. 02:31:49 so now we know that the algorithms more or less work 02:32:58 and we also know who is a member of the hacker illuminati 02:33:07 ah 02:33:22 how do you mean they work? what's the test of "workingness"? 02:33:26 heh 02:33:39 that jerks don't get master status 02:33:44 i dunno, there are some bugs i think 02:33:57 yeah, the RMS account got certified 02:33:59 but that may be in the settings and not the algorithm 02:34:10 You don't think that's really RMS? 02:34:25 I was a little surprised RMS doesn't know the difference between the Internet and the Web but... 02:34:34 it was announced that it's not RMS IIRC 02:34:45 oh? where? 02:34:49 at least whomever hasn't abused it 02:35:10 I think raph was hoping that sites like /. or k5 would pick up his trust metrics, but nobody did 02:35:49 so advogato is a big test of trust metric algorithms? (please don't mock - the closest i get to being a free software hacker is reading /.) 02:35:56 ;-) 02:36:03 yes, that's how I see it 02:36:19 i thought it was just for ego-boosting uber-hacker-geeks 02:36:30 hmm, neurogato isn't tansaku 02:36:32 GabeW: that's just a free bonus 02:36:36 that's what i said = "trust metric" ;-) 02:37:02 sourceforge implemented some of the trust metric stuff 02:37:08 I don't think many people use it though 02:37:12 Yeah. 02:37:16 And the diary stuff too. 02:37:36 I don't think sourceforge uses anything resembling the advogato algorithm 02:37:57 Hm. the ui seems pretty similar 02:38:20 .google sourceforge trust metric algorithm 02:38:20 sourceforge trust metric algorithm: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/PeerRatingSystem 02:38:25 i think the trust metric stuff is interesting, but i don't know that the real test will come until you have a situation where trust is really required. 02:38:37 redmonk: I agree 02:39:12 a separate "advogato-certified" line at the airport would be nice 02:39:22 i mean, ok, who can post to a webpage? i think that's why it seems so "mutual admiration"-y 02:39:30 gabe: yes 02:39:42 at least that's the idea 02:39:57 Gabe is: a) an upstanding guy, b) a priest, c) the Pope 02:40:10 or how about a credit-rating system based on trust-metrics? 02:40:22 hehe 02:40:26 there's the killer-app 02:40:28 it sorta works that way now 02:40:35 well, yeah 02:40:35 actually, eBay could probably use something like that 02:40:37 only the people who get to rate you are the ones who grant you credit 02:40:42 wmf: yes 02:41:03 and Fair Isaac develops and runs the algorithm 02:41:06 raph sounds upset that people are still reading /. 02:41:13 gabe: yeah, what you want is for the people who know you to be able to rate you, then the credit companies use that metric 02:41:25 redmonk: but that would be useless, really 02:41:29 having no credit certainly does suck... 02:41:46 wmf: having great credit can suck too ;-) 02:41:50 the credit granting companies have zero trust in anybody but each other and only a little at that 02:42:16 i know 02:42:31 * sbp reads Tim Bray's latest namespaces stuff - some contentious points in there 02:42:48 good contentious or bad contentious? 02:43:25 don't you guys know that all namespaces are an evil conspiracy? 02:44:16 oh? are they alien rays designed to attack Frontier? 02:44:25 wmf: now you sound like Dave 02:44:27 lol 02:44:31 I don't know the details 02:44:37 Who should I ask? 02:44:59 Aaron: Hmm... somewhere in between 02:45:28 re: frontier - the only Frontier stuff that uses namespaces is the SOAP client/server 02:45:32 and it's hacked it 02:45:35 er, hacked in 02:46:01 IIRC, there's no way in Frontier's XML engine to do namespaces 02:46:05 Yeah. 02:46:26 * redmonk ducks 02:46:31 GabeW has quit ("Client Exiting") 02:47:22 well, i meant no disrespect to Frontier per se, but it's truth that the XMl engine needs an update 02:49:47 I showed the royal suite to my brother; he was impressed at my pundit status 02:50:11 I was thinking that you should get an extra special QuickTime Broadcaster Pundit Edition. 02:50:27 Live webcasts with running commentary. 02:50:46 hehe 02:51:32 sbp has left #swhack 02:51:41 hey! 02:51:59 ooh, you have a new home page 02:52:09 hey what? :-) 02:52:11 Ah, yeah. Apparently it's screwy in OmniWeb 02:52:18 hey at sbp leaving 02:53:32 you know, The Caassini Division is a great book about the Singularity 02:54:19 wmf: haven't read that one 02:54:21 heh. Dave removed me fron his left-bar links after i stopped using Radio. 02:54:29 but the two others I've read were interesting 02:54:32 wmf, I bought the Star Fraction at Borders the other day 02:54:34 heh 02:54:44 cool 02:55:04 Heh, I've been blogged! 02:55:10 that's the weakest of the three that I've read, but it's probably good to read them in order 02:55:35 asw: by whom? 02:55:38 by wmf 02:55:41 ah 02:55:53 * rillian liked the canal one the best so far 02:56:02 AaronSw has the low-latency HTP direct connection 02:56:13 yes, I think The Stone Canal is the best 02:56:14 indeed. 02:56:33 rillian has changed the topic to: Don't let THEM immenetize the eschaton! 02:56:41 or however you spell it 02:56:42 .spell immenitize 02:56:51 potential spellings for immenitize are: immunities, immensities, immensity, amenities, enmities, ilmenites, inanities, intimacy, amanitas, amenity 02:56:59 immanentize 02:57:07 AaronSw has changed the topic to: Don't let THEM immanentize the eschaton! 02:57:10 is that in there too? 02:57:11 have any of you guys read orson scott card? 02:57:16 yep 02:57:27 cool 02:57:28 i read the first two ender books, gonna read the third eventually 02:57:36 i read the whole ender series 02:57:42 yeah, immanentizing the eschaton is mentioned in the stone canal 02:57:45 and the "shadow of" 02:57:54 I've read the whole ender series as well 02:57:54 I never read after Ender's Game. 02:58:02 3000 years was too much for me. 02:58:02 it's worth it 02:58:05 nah 02:58:15 I'm waiting to hear more about Peter 02:58:18 he does it better than Isaac Asimov 02:58:23 wmf, did you hear about the new book? 02:58:33 there's an immediate sequel to ender's game 02:58:41 it's like shadow of the buggers or something 02:58:46 rillian has changed the topic to: Don't let THEM immenintize the eschaton! 02:58:56 i thought it was immanentize 02:58:58 well I read Shadow of the Hegemon 02:59:04 ah, that's it 02:59:08 it's ok 02:59:21 i liked Ender's Shadow better though 02:59:25 it's immanentize 02:59:50 wmf, can you fix it? my client inserts some weird color character 02:59:56 wmf: that's McCloud's spelling? 03:00:01 hello 03:00:08 there seems to be several spellings extant 03:00:09 Shadow of the Hegemon was kind of boring because I don't find Bean all that interesting 03:00:22 can I fix what? 03:00:28 the topic spelling 03:00:42 rillian has changed the topic to: Don't let THEM immanentize the eschaton! 03:00:51 or rillian ;) 03:01:09 that's the spelling used in Illuminatus! and thus picked up by MacLeod 03:01:11 So Speaker of the Dead is good, eh? 03:01:22 yes 03:01:32 very good 03:01:45 it's excellent in fact 03:01:51 Hm. 03:02:02 "the word is immAnent, meaning all-pervasive, everywhere all at once" 03:03:44 "Try looking in *your* closed for the exchaton. I'm sure you'll find one there." 03:03:56 now all the people google for "quicktime broadcaster hack" will find your quote, AaronSw 03:04:05 :-) 03:05:10 grrr, sourceforge down for maintenance 03:05:13 Wow: http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2000/02/03/card/ 03:05:21 again? 03:05:26 you can tell because #sourceforge is full 03:07:06 we moved out of sourceforge cvs this weekend :P 03:13:12 that's a very weird interview 03:15:32 Yeah, it is. 03:16:12 Good ending. 03:16:18 "I fantasize about pressing a button that makes my space fleet blast Card into tiny fragments whose DNA will never bother me again." 03:16:25 ;-) 03:16:28 heh 03:16:34 I didn't bother reading that far 03:18:29 I'm considering writing up a "CSS for Dave" article. 03:18:41 probably a waste of time 03:18:53 it seems like everything has been said on that topic 03:18:57 Really? I think I've found the winning answer: "CSS is just a client-side CMS" 03:19:11 has anyone said that? 03:19:32 I wouldn't try to sell a client-side CMS to Dave, and I don't believe that CSS is one anyway 03:19:43 Heh. 03:20:59 copying comments from k5 to /. seems popular lately 03:34:50 @ http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=28169&threshold=0&commentsort=3&tid=158&mode=thread&cid=3029848 03:34:57 A: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=28169&threshold=0&commentsort=3&tid=158&mode=thread&cid=3029848 from wmf 03:39:07 redmonk has quit ("cya") 03:40:12 What does that have to do with anything? 03:40:30 nothing, but I thought it was funny 03:40:53 Yeah, it looks funny. 03:40:56 I'm not sure why anybody's surprised that Fred Durst is an asshole 04:06:15 wmf has quit ("wmf has no reason") 04:27:57 A:|Limp Bizkit guitarist search 04:27:58 titled item A 04:31:41 @ http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/000169 04:31:43 B: http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/000169 from AaronSw 04:31:50 B:|CSS: Client-side rendering rules 04:31:51 titled item B 04:31:59 B::Comments gratefully appreciated. 04:31:59 commented item B 04:32:02 [that means you, sbp] 04:32:30 redmonk (~steve@ip68-2-192-160.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #swhack 04:33:02 redmonk is now known as rm_packing_to_move 04:33:36 deux_x: hey what's the deal with arboretum? ;-) 04:36:38 where you moving to? 04:36:45 into as house 04:36:48 er, a house 04:37:07 about 8 mi away 04:37:17 we move this wknd 04:38:30 i still have rdf/db questions btw, but it's gonna have to wait until later tonight (as the name implies we're packing) 04:40:28 rm_packing_to_move is now known as rm_away 04:54:06 rm_away is now known as rm 05:03:35 okedoke 05:13:44 * AaronSw writes Dave-CSS off as an unsoluable problem 05:13:52 .spell unsoluble 05:13:52 potential spellings for unsoluble are: insoluble, unsalable, unsellable, unassailable, insolubles, insolubly, unusable, unsuitable, unsuitably, unguessable 05:13:58 insoluble problem 05:14:07 unsolvable 05:14:19 Heh, unsolvable problem. 05:14:23 insoluble means "will not disolve in" 05:14:35 hi again 05:14:42 aargh! i hate it when Entourage deletes a message i'm working on 05:14:53 d'oh! 05:27:15 tansaku (~sam@mtl10gw.mtl.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp) has joined #swhack 05:28:22 lol: http://x42.com/snap/2000/05/dishcloth/ 05:29:15 His site is very funny. 05:33:12 * AaronSw is away: doing work 05:33:15 bye 06:03:15 rm has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:54:36 redmonk (~steve@ip68-2-192-160.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #swhack 07:07:39 redmonk has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:16:10 rillian has quit ("walk, sleep") 07:24:00 tansaku has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:00:07 tansaku123 (~sam@mtl10gw.mtl.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp) has joined #swhack 08:05:22 tansaku123 is now known as tansaku 09:40:38 AaronSw has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:52:55 tansaku has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:26:40 tansaku (~sam@n144-001.tokyu-net.catv.ne.jp) has joined #swhack 13:12:50 wendy (chisholm@w3cdhcp15.w3.org) has joined #swhack 13:13:02 tansaku has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:40:38 tansaku (~sam@n144-001.tokyu-net.catv.ne.jp) has joined #swhack 14:42:24 AaronSw (~Snak@63.149.73.20) has joined #swhack 14:42:44 ugh 14:52:09 tansaku1a (~sam@h133-034.tokyu-net.catv.ne.jp) has joined #swhack 15:01:56 iBitsko (~ken@kmacleod.static.iaxs.net) has joined #swhack 15:01:59 morning 15:04:35 for reference, CSS is not XSL. XSL is not DSSSL. DSSSL is not TeX. "ooh, look, I can change the pretty colors and fonts" doesn't seem like a big deal to me ;) 15:05:23 Aaron: "letting the HTML simply store the content and CSS take care of the presentation. 15:05:32 morning 15:05:34 " is so not the case 15:05:42 it is for me 15:05:59 how so? 15:06:02 My CSS sites have no presentation code. 15:06:14 I'll buy that. 15:06:34 So doesn't "letting the HTML simply store the content and CSS take care of the presentation." follow? 15:06:36 and I'll probably note that I prefer what the site looks like without using the CSS at all ;) 15:06:46 That's fine -- even good. 15:07:14 I'd note that you must be using some crazy browser, or have an odd sense of taste, but ok. ;) 15:07:35 no, it's mere eye candy 15:08:05 Oh, I think I sort of understand now... that's what I meant. 15:08:38 wendolyn (chisholm@24-6-192.wireless.lcs.mit.edu) has joined #swhack 15:10:26 CSS lets you make macros for fonts and colors. "seperating content from presentation" it does not. 15:11:02 So how would I separate content from presentation? 15:11:49 XSL is the obvious next step, as it at least allows one to reorder and make presentation decisions based on predefined values. 15:12:32 Yeah, but I think it's generally overkill for text-content sites. 15:12:44 i mean, i think adding more detailed semantic markup would be good. 15:12:51 why? that's the whole purpose of a CMS 15:12:55 tansaku has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:13:06 I dunno, I guess Sean found the breakdown... it was 70/30 or something 15:13:11 in current architecture, it's the CMS that is seperating content from presentation. 15:13:35 But not everyone can afford a CMS, thus CSS. 15:13:54 Not everyone wants a CSS (the w3c, for example) 15:13:55 please! 15:14:00 err CMS 15:15:04 I wasn't saying anything about affording a CMS, I said that in current architecture it is typically the "CMS" bit that is doing the gruntwork of seperatign content from presentation. 15:15:31 And I think that's a bad architecture. 15:15:42 CSS cannot, for example, generate a table of contents or an index. at least XSL can do that. 15:16:09 Hm, that's true and would certainly be a useful feature. 15:16:10 partially. 15:16:20 We had that feature in xWebL 15:17:23 think of it this way. a weblogger in an ideal world stores "nodes" of their info at URLs. the client assembles those nodes and presents them. XSL can't do that. DSSSL comes real close. 15:17:38 I would like that. 15:17:50 XSL can't do that? why? 15:18:15 no logic structures 15:18:21 no navigation 15:18:37 no state maintenance. 15:18:49 My concern with turing-complete languages like XSL is that people will have a hard time modifying them programmatically, since there's the halting problem and stuff... 15:20:45 little problems like that don't seem to be holding back progress so far ;) 15:21:10 not that one shuoldn't be concerned about avoiding it, of course 15:21:27 Morbus (~Morbus@s87.terminal3.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack 15:21:43 i guess it's the old FOs considered harmful thing 15:22:18 AaronSw, did you sign up for the 2.0 beta test? 15:22:26 of MT? no 15:22:28 of Movable Type? 15:22:33 ah. looks good. 15:22:35 it was too late when i went to try 15:22:39 that's cool 15:22:55 do they get rid of .html links? 15:23:09 i doubt it, since that's a user changeable setting.l 15:23:11 wendy has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:23:13 is there a discourse on FO CH? 15:23:19 i mean, its right there in the Blog Settings. 15:23:25 no it's not, we went over this 15:23:29 unless i'm missing something. 15:23:39 .google formatting objects considered harmful 15:23:39 formatting objects considered harmful: http://www.operasoftware.com/people/howcome/1999/foch.html 15:23:50 there you go, iBitsko 15:24:00 * iBitsko needs to get used to that ;) 15:24:20 google everywhere 15:24:50 if the premise is that we should not have a web of FOs any more than a web of presentational HTML, I agree 100% 15:25:09 i think it's a slipper slope argument. 15:25:43 FOs are the output of rendering, and pretty much the last step occuring on the client side. ideally. 15:26:01 yeah, his concern is that web designers will do it on the server-side 15:26:32 my concern is that if we move to a web of XSL, then we'll need a new user stylesheet for every xml format 15:26:58 .google glenn simpson 15:26:58 glenn simpson: http://www.zoneradio.com/wkit/glenn.html 15:26:59 I happen to like the component model, thank you ;) 15:27:13 hm? context? 15:28:09 that is to say, having a stylesheet per blobl of data is not a bad thing, and gathering blobs of styled boxes (components) into a rendered page seems to be the general goal already 15:28:40 Ah. Presenting data is a whole 'nother story. 15:29:17 oh, and yes, there should be a stylesheet for every xml format. even more than one. 15:29:32 I don't like that idea so much myself. I don't want the navigational clutter and the three page copyright notice on every page. 15:29:46 And I don't think the blind people can keep up with all the XML formats. 15:30:23 mmMMmm. copyyyright. 15:30:56 I've never seen a three page copyright notice on every page, and lots of sites already do component rendering. 15:31:33 [ I was exaggerating a bit ] 15:33:11 and I suspect natural xml formats would be far easier to navigate raw by the blind than most any presentation of it. 15:33:59 That's an interesting thought. 15:34:10 "presentation" seems to be most commonly desired by people who want more flash for their pages so they can gain mutual admiration points 15:34:26 Heh. 15:36:08 Morbus, do the MT pages have decent s? 15:36:11 <wendolyn> wendolyn is now known as wendy 15:36:25 <Morbus> the news ones? i dunno, lemme check. i've overridden them all. 15:36:38 <AaronSw> no, the mt.cgi ones 15:38:04 <Morbus> nope, all the same. 15:38:19 <AaronSw> urgle 15:39:12 <iBitsko> centering on the original point tho, CSS does only a very tiny part of this, and argually an unnecessary part once you're using a "real" stylesheet system that does more 15:39:44 <AaronSw> I suppose so. 15:40:05 <iBitsko> which is mostly why I giggled at the "CSS Rules" arguments 15:40:32 <AaronSw> All I can say is that I'm not presenting data (for the most part) so CSS is good enough for me. 15:40:51 <AaronSw> And you can believe me when I say I'm not going to learn XSL so I can have a nice-looking website. 15:40:55 <AaronSw> But CSS was easy to learn. 15:43:55 <iBitsko> XSL is for things like the swhack weblog that pulls together individual items from seperate containers. not for "documents" or "articles" 15:44:39 <iBitsko> thinking of structure-only HTML as DocBook-lite is exactly right 15:47:03 <iBitsko> as a counter example, for quite some time (still?) McCusker's site is completely hand-written HTML. 15:47:44 <iBitsko> I'm not sure you could point to a site in more need of XSL and content seperation 15:48:02 <iBitsko> (he's mentioned it himself, of course ;) 15:48:11 <AaronSw> :) 15:48:17 <AaronSw> he surfs with css off, of course 15:49:34 <iBitsko> yes, it makes it easier to pull information out during quick surfs, if you're not fighting pink-on-green blogs 15:51:07 <iBitsko> that's another direction even CSS could help with, letting the user select styles that "work with" different sites, rather than randomly overriding them 15:52:42 <AaronSw> yes, sbp suggested that 15:52:48 <AaronSw> an if-then sort of thing 15:58:54 <Morbus> Morbus has quit ("http://www.disobey.com/") 15:59:43 <iBitsko> one of the goals of an early *ML project of mine (even predates my coming into SGML ;) was stylesheet middleware, given a source format and a desired presentation, the middleware transformed thru an intermediate format that made it N+M vs. N*M 16:00:12 <AaronSw> Oh, interesting. 16:00:14 <iBitsko> (I'm sure there's an O() form for that equation ;) 16:01:20 <iBitsko> when I got to SGML, I then had tons of source formats to work with. I had it working with DocBook, TEI, LinuxDoc, and HTML, with output to plain text, HTML, RTF and TeX 16:02:31 <iBitsko> the middle format could be called "content objects", if you will, in that they represented various content in a more neutral form, but yet still without most presentation aspects (formatting objects) 16:05:13 <AaronSw> Hm. 16:07:10 <AaronSw> * AaronSw posts his CodeCon wrapup 16:11:46 <iBitsko> where? 16:12:11 <AaronSw> http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/000170 16:12:32 <AaronSw> my pre-blogging is here: http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/000166 16:22:23 <iBitsko> how well does BitTorrent work? I was just thinking about that yesterday, as I was looking for multi-megabyte samples of HDTV MPEG2s 16:23:09 <iBitsko> it's almost impossible to find DVD sample MPEG2s, because the sites can't handle the load 16:24:18 <iBitsko> otoh, I can't see how BitTorrent would make one site's bandwidth usage any better than throttling would ;) 16:28:58 <AaronSw> Heh, yeah.l 16:29:14 <AaronSw> BitTorrent works pretty well, apparently. 16:29:24 <AaronSw> Problem is NAT, of course. 16:29:36 <AaronSw> I'll have to join in next time Bram does a test. 16:32:19 <AaronSw> Anyone know why bash no longer adds '/' when I tab-complete filenames that are links to directories? 16:33:41 <iBitsko> not me 16:34:19 <iBitsko> "problem is NAT" for home-networks? or for people at work? 16:34:28 <AaronSw> both, i guess 16:34:59 <iBitsko> is BT the one that works over FTP or its own protocol? 16:35:11 <AaronSw> it's own protocol, i'm pretty sure 16:36:39 <iBitsko> well, for most smart firewalls, they need only write crystal-boxes to install on the NAT ;) 16:37:39 <iBitsko> Apple has a really nice NATting proxy for QT, if one could ever get it to work... doh! 16:37:48 <AaronSw> hm 16:51:55 <GabeW> GabeW (~Gabe@12-236-237-100.client.attbi.com) has joined #swhack 17:00:36 <GabeW> GabeW has quit ("Client Exiting") 17:06:49 <sbp> sbp (~sean@63.149.73.20) has joined #swhack 17:07:10 <sbp> on the CSS/XML conversation last night... 17:07:14 <sbp> what a load of bollocks! 17:07:36 <AaronSw> .time 17:07:37 <sbp> example nuttiness:- 17:07:40 <sbp> 15:33:11 <iBitsko> and I suspect natural xml formats would be far easier to navigate raw by the blind than most any presentation of it. 17:07:47 <xena> 2002/02/19 17:09:15.7143 Universal 17:07:53 <AaronSw> that was this morning for me, but ok 17:08:03 <sbp> Aural CSS is a form of presentation. Aural CSS is conceptually rather useful 17:08:24 <sbp> ooh... it was in the afternoon for me 17:08:36 <sbp> and FOs are fine 17:08:48 <AaronSw> FOCH! 17:09:04 <sbp> but only when the user *wants* them. They have to use some sort of CONNEG 17:10:27 <sbp> anyway, I agree with most of the rest :-) 17:10:47 <sbp> * sbp has to rant every so orften 17:11:10 <AaronSw> Heh. "This has been, Sean's Morning Rant." 17:11:24 <sbp> heh, heh. "goodnight, and thanks for listening!" 17:11:30 <sbp> s/night/morning/ 17:11:52 <sbp> * sbp lobbies for the world to use a single time standard 17:12:08 <AaronSw> .beats 17:12:08 <xena> The time is @759 at the tone. 17:12:32 <AaronSw> then there's tav.beats: 17:12:32 <AaronSw> .tavtime 17:12:32 <xena> 2313.16.09.14.22 17:12:34 <sbp> heh. How many beats till The Simpsons, I wonder? :-) 17:12:39 <sbp> tavtime? oh dear... 17:12:53 <AaronSw> yeah, you know that'll be bad 17:12:53 <sbp> blimey. That's really... not complicated at all 17:13:00 <AaronSw> .tavtime 17:13:00 <xena> 2313.16.09.14.50 17:13:11 <AaronSw> it's the year 2313? 17:13:15 <sbp> ooh, it increments in a similar way to standard time 17:13:24 <sbp> yeah, why not. Welcome to the future 17:14:03 <AaronSw> .time est 17:14:03 <xena> Feb. 19, 2002 12:15 pm US/Eastern 17:14:07 <AaronSw> .time pst 17:14:07 <xena> Feb. 19, 2002 9:15 am US/Pacific 17:14:12 <AaronSw> .tavtime 17:14:12 <xena> 2313.16.09.16.02 17:14:17 <AaronSw> .time pst 17:14:17 <xena> Feb. 19, 2002 9:15 am US/Pacific 17:14:32 <AaronSw> hm. we'll it appears to be a PST plus a minute 17:14:33 <AaronSw> .time pst 17:14:33 <xena> Feb. 19, 2002 9:16 am US/Pacific 17:15:12 <sbp> perhaps that's just fluke 17:15:20 <sbp> a "second" might be 1.001 of our normal seconds 17:15:26 <AaronSw> .tavtime 17:15:27 <AaronSw> or at least a couple seconds 17:15:27 <xena> 2313.16.09.17.17 17:16:04 <AaronSw> ooh, that'd be a mess 17:16:23 <sbp> 17:12:32 <xena> 2313.16.09.14.22 17:16:24 <sbp> 17:13:00 <xena> 2313.16.09.14.50 17:16:24 <sbp> 17:14:12 <xena> 2313.16.09.16.02 17:16:24 <sbp> 17:15:27 <xena> 2313.16.09.17.17 17:16:32 <sbp> ten seconds behind 17:16:42 <AaronSw> i think your clock is off 17:16:51 <AaronSw> or its is 17:16:53 <sbp> that's from the #swhack logs... 17:17:39 <AaronSw> Hm. 17:22:16 <sbp> [actually, 1:50 ahead...] 17:22:35 <sbp> Hmm... so if "9" is really an hour 17:22:56 <sbp> the .16 must be somewhere in between days and months 17:23:14 <sbp> I suspect the time measure is too short, since we have 2313 years by now 17:23:53 <sbp> OTOH, perhaps it starts from 311BC 17:24:04 <sbp> .google "313 BC" 17:24:04 <xena> "313 BC": http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/Year_in_Review_4th_Century_BC 17:25:14 <sbp> aha: "in 313 17:25:14 <sbp> BC, Emperor Qin decided to move his court to the south bank of the Wei River 17:25:21 <sbp> " - http://www.chinatour.com/attraction/xian.htm 17:25:45 <sbp> or: "In 313 BC. Alexander the Great invaded Egypt." - http://www.stshenouda.com/coptlang/copthist.htm 17:26:12 <sbp> wow: imagine trying to find that information in under a minute before the Web. You'd have to ask relatives, look through books, walk to a library... 17:26:29 <AaronSw> Yeah, makes you think... 17:26:50 <sbp> it's weird because I don't remember having to do that. I think I take the Web for granted already 17:31:48 <sbp> topic in #sbp:- 17:31:48 <sbp> [17:01] *** Topic is 'xena: better than a +P!' 17:31:49 <sbp> [17:01] *** Set by sbp on Tue Feb 19 01:25:03 17:34:06 <sbp> argh, why will IE style <acronym>, but not <abbr>? 17:36:27 <sbp> lol @ immanentize the eschaton! 17:37:04 <AaronSw> heh 17:37:38 <sbp> * sbp adds it to his vocabularly 17:38:30 <sbp> now, when someone says "I live in a wonderful home, and have a wonderful life. It's heaven on Earth!", I can say "don't immanentize the eschaton!", and I'll be institutionalized 17:38:40 <sbp> until I point them at http://www.chaosmatrix.com/lib/chaos/texts/ite.html of course 17:39:13 <AaronSw> lol 17:43:00 <sbp> Hmm... so far, you have three quotes on my new [off-nethomepage redesign 17:43:07 <sbp> s/net/net] / 17:43:15 <AaronSw> heh, heh 17:46:11 <sbp> the current working h1: "Sean B. Palmer - Mr. Phenomic" 17:46:56 <AaronSw> [giggle] 17:48:09 <sbp> Gotta run 17:52:11 <MorbusIff> MorbusIff (~morbus@morbus.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack 18:00:13 <MorbusIff> MorbusIff is now known as Morbus 18:16:12 <GabeW> GabeW (~Gabe@12-236-237-100.client.attbi.com) has joined #swhack 18:20:24 <sbp> interesting:- 18:20:25 <sbp> [[[ 18:20:26 <sbp> “The Harvard College Library in 1723,” says Perry, had nothing of Addison, Steele, Bolingbroke, Dryden, Pope, and Swift, and had only recently obtained copies of Milton and Shakespeare.… 18:20:36 <sbp> ]]] - http://www.bartleby.com/185/11.html 18:25:06 <kham> kham (kmnguyen@dhcp-29-159.imt.uwm.edu) has joined #swhack 18:25:12 <kham> hello sbp 18:25:15 <kham> hello Aaron 18:25:33 <kham> partied too much this weekend 18:26:05 <kham> I did not drink, but partied with Spike and Ken and the Gals 18:26:10 <kham> just chatted 18:26:14 <sbp> uh huh 18:26:46 <kham> and driving around making a fool of ourselves whistling at women passerbys 18:27:08 <kham> not me but Spike did 18:27:17 <kham> i was just the chauffer 18:27:39 <kham> well, it's just fun and games up here in Milwaukee 18:34:55 <tansaku1a> tansaku1a has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:45:50 <sbp> argh, sorting more junk 18:45:59 <sbp> The problem with information is that you have to organize it 18:46:18 <sbp> One day, I'll find a good information management system... 18:49:17 <sbp> quite a few people on #swhack today 18:50:36 <sbp> [OLM] 18:50:49 <AaronSw> huh? 18:50:58 <sbp> I said: [OLM] 18:51:06 <sbp> .acroynm OLM 18:51:30 <sbp> xena? be a dear and de-acronymize my little teaser 18:52:44 <AaronSw> #heh 18:52:49 <AaronSw> oops ;) 18:59:58 <sbp> Gotta run 19:06:42 <danbri> danbri (~danbri@h0050ba016e0d.ne.mediaone.net) has joined #swhack 19:07:16 <danbri> anyone here own the Xena bot in irc.w3.org? It won't leave our channel when we ask it to. Aaron? 19:07:38 <AaronSw> hi danbri 19:07:38 <AaronSw> you're caller number 3 19:08:11 <AaronSw> *** xena: No such nick/channel 19:09:36 <GabeW> GabeW has quit ("Client Exiting") 19:11:07 <danbri> Aaron, is Xena logging the channels it hangs out on? (where to...?) 19:11:21 <AaronSw> well, it keeps logs for .seen but it has no web logs 19:11:46 <AaronSw> but it doesn't seem to be on the W3C network, so i'm not sure what's up 19:12:07 <danbri> we might've kicked it (cos it kept rejoining uninvited...) 19:13:10 <AaronSw> off the whole network? 19:14:21 <AaronSw> I brought it on so that sbp could join his #er meeting, since he was having connection problems to irc.w3.org 19:16:18 <AaronSw> oh. oops - #sw* was still in it's autojoin settings. fixed 19:20:20 <danbri> thanks AaronSw! 19:20:36 <AaronSw> well, not that it'll do anything if it's been kicked off the whol network 19:23:47 <kham> well, i gotta go 19:23:53 <kham> have a good day all 19:23:57 <kham> kham has quit () 19:32:30 <iBitsko> iBitsko has quit ("Leaving") 20:00:54 <tansaku1a> tansaku1a (~sam@h133-034.tokyu-net.catv.ne.jp) has joined #swhack 20:01:48 <wendy> wendy has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 21:02:06 <danbri> danbri has left #swhack 21:40:07 <Morbus> Morbus has quit ("http://www.disobey.com/") 22:52:01 <sbp> Hmm... they put new bits in the three-stories/hobo Simpsons today 22:52:06 <sbp> they must have cut them out before 22:52:13 <sbp> for example, they cut out the funeral part at the end 22:52:30 <sbp> and the bit where Paul/Homer throws the rock 22:52:37 <sbp> [well, meteor] 22:53:08 <sbp> :Meteor rdfs:subClassOf :RockyOrIronyNickelyThing . 23:12:27 <Morbus> Morbus (~Morbus@s98.terminal3.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack 23:14:55 <sbp> Hi Morbus 23:15:07 <Morbus> hey sbp 23:15:38 <Morbus> i'm hoping to publish something to the ORA blog today. 23:16:09 <sbp> great! 23:22:21 <Morbus> * Morbus adds to DNN. 23:24:59 <sbp> heh: oOOOh, look what I can do with camera effects and angles, and blurring! Yes, blurring and extreme closeups are good! yessss!" 23:29:35 <Morbus> :) 23:29:40 <Morbus> prepping a ORA post now./ 23:34:19 <Morbus> ooOh! 23:34:19 <Morbus> http://www.oreillynet.com/weblogs/author/779 23:34:28 <Morbus> and i'm in the left hand sidebar now. 23:47:43 <Morbus> ack. 23:47:48 <Morbus> kearney's a beta tester of 2.0 23:52:55 <sbp> heh, the picture! your Weblog is an instant classi 23:53:00 <sbp> er... classic 23:53:01 <Morbus> :)