IRC log of swhack on 2002-02-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:01:20 [tansaku]
tansaku (~sam@h134-249.tokyu-net.catv.ne.jp) has joined #swhack
00:48:47 [tansaku]
tansaku has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
01:01:06 [AaronSw]
jeremiah, i saw, i downloaded, tav and i got into a heated discussion with the creator and went away
01:01:52 [AaronSw]
it's interesting that they made /. tho
01:04:05 [AaronSw]
where was it on /.?
01:05:01 [jeremiah]
I dunno, i saw it on the rss channel
01:05:27 [AaronSw]
cuz i odn't see it when i search
01:05:28 [jeremiah]
AaronSw: have you done any java coding?
01:05:38 [AaronSw]
not really, sbp's done more than i
01:05:44 [AaronSw]
the circle is python, btw
01:06:00 [AaronSw]
i was going to use it, but the code is so messy i didn't bother
01:06:00 [jeremiah]
hmm
01:06:05 [jeremiah]
heh
01:06:21 [jeremiah]
well, I have this fairly 'enterprise' app I'm going to be working on, for said large company
01:06:34 [AaronSw]
i don't recall you saying a large company
01:06:47 [jeremiah]
hmm
01:06:48 [jeremiah]
me neither
01:06:57 [AaronSw]
{semanticize, napsterize, DeMorganize} your enterprise!
01:07:07 [jeremiah]
err, no
01:07:36 [jeremiah]
semantic web stuff is a bit too [expirimental | useless | flakey] for this client
01:07:37 [jeremiah]
:)
01:07:52 [jeremiah]
about circle: maybe slashdot pulled the article...
01:07:54 [AaronSw]
I'm getting out all my enterprise java bean jokes
01:08:13 [AaronSw]
maybe it's not on the front page... that seems to happen sometimes
01:08:20 [jeremiah]
hmm
01:08:26 [jeremiah]
well, right now they need a hardcore CMS
01:08:32 [jeremiah]
which is what they have, but I need to redo some of it
01:08:37 [AaronSw]
Ah.
01:08:38 [jeremiah]
i'm leaning towards python
01:09:05 [AaronSw]
Zope could be good for that.
01:09:10 [jeremiah]
hmm
01:09:12 [jeremiah]
it could be
01:09:16 [AaronSw]
Cool! Guido won a FSF award. "The selection comittee incluedd: Miguel de Icaza, Ian Murdock, Eric Raymond, Peter Salus, Vernor Vinge, and Larry Wall." That's a pretty awesome selection comittee.
01:09:18 [jeremiah]
but we already have most of the stuffwe need in place
01:09:53 [AaronSw]
and?
01:19:24 [jeremiah]
* jeremiah reads up on zope
01:21:44 [AaronSw]
gotta run: dinner
01:22:05 [jeremiah]
ok
01:22:24 [wmf]
wmf (wesf@cs242733-11.austin.rr.com) has joined #swhack
01:22:31 [wmf]
swhack!
01:22:39 [jeremiah]
hey
01:22:43 [jeremiah]
aaron just ran off to dinner
01:22:55 [jeremiah]
he's working on convincing me to use zope for an upcoming project
01:23:14 [wmf]
zope is cool
01:23:22 [jeremiah]
seem so
01:23:33 [jeremiah]
I feel uncomfortable using someone elses cms though, for some reason
01:24:21 [wmf]
well if you want to spend >$10K to write a CMS, more power to you
01:24:41 [jeremiah]
well, what I need isn't really a cms, is the thing, so I'm not sure
01:24:49 [wmf]
ah
01:25:00 [jeremiah]
http://designmasters.superb.net/catalogue.php
01:25:05 [jeremiah]
it's more of a "database driven site"
01:26:52 [jeremiah]
* jeremiah is still trying to figure out what zope has to offer
01:52:12 [jeremiah]
* jeremiah is back (gone 05:06:38)
01:52:17 [jeremiah]
* jeremiah is away: time for bed
02:00:28 [AaronSw]
wmf!
02:00:41 [wmf]
hey AaronSw
02:00:42 [AaronSw]
Zope isn't a CMS!
02:00:45 [GabeW]
wtf wmf!
02:00:49 [wmf]
heh
02:00:49 [AaronSw]
wfm!
02:01:26 [AaronSw]
jer here was saying there was an article about "The Circle" on /. but i couldn't ifnd it. Have you seen it, wmf?
02:01:26 [wmf]
.acronym wfm
02:01:27 [xena]
wfm: Works For Me, Wait for Me (Internet chat), What Freakin' Manual? (response to RTFM), Wired For Management (Intel), Women's FIDE Master, Work Force Management, Workflow Management, Workflow Manager
02:01:36 [GabeW]
.acronym wtf
02:01:38 [xena]
wtf: What The Freak (polite form), Waste Treatment Facility, Way To Fail, What If, What's This For?, When The Freak (polite form), Where the Freak (polite form), Where's the Food?, Where's the Fridge?, Why the Failure, Why The Freak (polite form), Wisconsin Test Facility, World Taekwon Do Federation, World Tennis Federation
02:01:47 [AaronSw]
sbp coiled Well Freak Me (polite form)
02:01:51 [AaronSw]
err coined
02:02:03 [wmf]
hmm, I saw an article about the circle somewhere recently...
02:02:50 [AaronSw]
Hm.
02:03:01 [GabeW]
so, is wmf short for What, Mother Freaker!
02:03:42 [wmf]
except you have to imitate Samuel L Jackson when you say it
02:06:09 [wmf]
GabeW: what's your advogato account?
02:06:28 [GabeW]
gwachob
02:06:49 [GabeW]
wmf: re Samuel L Jackson - **Exactly**
02:06:58 [AaronSw]
Woo! You certified me as a Master.
02:07:00 [AaronSw]
:-)
02:07:24 [wmf]
that means I have to anti-certify AaronSw now...
02:07:27 [wmf]
:-)
02:07:32 [AaronSw]
hey now...
02:07:44 [AaronSw]
that won't work cuz the algorithm treats it as a minimum cerification
02:08:07 [wmf]
I know
02:08:28 [GabeW]
AaronSw doesn't seem to have another job besides writing code so according to the advogato system, I rated him master\
02:08:34 [AaronSw]
heh heh
02:09:32 [GabeW]
I don't understand the advogato system at all - all I know is that there is some ego to preserve!!! ;-)
02:10:07 [wmf]
I don't like the new weights; I think the system was working fine before raph messed with it
02:11:20 [GabeW]
I'm a master in disguise, really
02:11:46 [GabeW]
i'd be a master if it weren't for all the time I waste in irc
02:11:56 [GabeW]
yeah, thats the ticket
02:12:15 [redmonk]
redmonk (~steve@ip68-2-192-160.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #swhack
02:12:31 [redmonk]
hi all - what's the party for?
02:12:38 [AaronSw]
party?
02:12:50 [redmonk]
wmf tells me there's a party going on over here
02:12:54 [sbp]
* sbp breaks out the hats, party poppers, and wine
02:12:58 [AaronSw]
Oh, right.
02:13:06 [wmf]
* wmf chuckles
02:13:13 [AaronSw]
we're having a cert party
02:13:18 [AaronSw]
real cert-lovin
02:13:33 [redmonk]
what cert?
02:14:03 [AaronSw]
on advogato
02:15:26 [AaronSw]
amk on the zen of python: "Don't take these 19 aphorisms too seriously -- tattooing them on your body is probably a bad idea, for example -- but it's instructive to contemplate them."
02:15:33 [AaronSw]
redmonk, do you have an advogato account
02:15:34 [sbp]
ooh, I think my builtins work
02:15:38 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw goes crazy with the certs
02:15:44 [AaronSw]
sbp, do you have an advogato account?
02:15:49 [sbp]
wow, they have!
02:15:53 [redmonk]
asw: no
02:16:00 [sbp]
no, I don't
02:18:21 [redmonk]
should i?
02:18:37 [wmf]
ooh, new RDF model theory draft
02:18:50 [AaronSw]
Heh, do you read them?
02:19:01 [wmf]
I might read this one
02:19:13 [AaronSw]
Pat's got a datatypes proposal almost done too...
02:19:27 [AaronSw]
It's scary, after months and months we might be done.
02:22:52 [AaronSw]
advogato certs are messed, since we cert people based on their coding time, but this really gives them priveledges to write to the site
02:23:01 [AaronSw]
i want good writers writing, not good coders
02:23:29 [redmonk]
hm. good point.
02:23:49 [redmonk]
i was just reading the cert pages
02:23:54 [wmf]
I don't want to read stuff from good writers who can't code on advogato. they have plenty of other forums
02:23:55 [redmonk]
however - congrats aaron
02:24:02 [AaronSw]
on what?
02:24:18 [AaronSw]
wmf, ok, well both. coders who have interesting things to say, perhaps
02:24:24 [redmonk]
nevermind
02:24:37 [AaronSw]
i don't care if you're a master. I don't want you spamming advogato with your get rich quick schemes.
02:25:39 [wmf]
hopefully it would only happen once
02:26:20 [GabeW]
AaronSw: you have get-rich-quick schemes?
02:26:31 [AaronSw]
Unfortunately, no.
02:26:37 [redmonk]
hehe
02:27:04 [GabeW]
cuz if you did, you should post it to slashdot!
02:27:40 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw certs accordianguy
02:28:26 [redmonk]
hm.
02:28:59 [redmonk]
(not flamebait> advogato alwys seemed a bit of a mutual admiration society to me
02:29:21 [wmf]
we prefer to think of it as the hacker illuminati :-)
02:29:34 [redmonk]
does anything really depend on an advagato cert?
02:29:46 [AaronSw]
your write access to the front page
02:30:05 [redmonk]
is that all?
02:30:30 [AaronSw]
afaik
02:30:34 [redmonk]
i don't mean to make light of it...
02:30:43 [redmonk]
just trying to see the point
02:31:11 [wmf]
I think the point of the site was mostly to test raph's algorithms
02:31:15 [AaronSw]
Indeed.
02:31:49 [wmf]
so now we know that the algorithms more or less work
02:32:58 [GabeW]
and we also know who is a member of the hacker illuminati
02:33:07 [redmonk]
ah
02:33:22 [redmonk]
how do you mean they work? what's the test of "workingness"?
02:33:26 [redmonk]
heh
02:33:39 [AaronSw]
that jerks don't get master status
02:33:44 [AaronSw]
i dunno, there are some bugs i think
02:33:57 [wmf]
yeah, the RMS account got certified
02:33:59 [AaronSw]
but that may be in the settings and not the algorithm
02:34:10 [AaronSw]
You don't think that's really RMS?
02:34:25 [AaronSw]
I was a little surprised RMS doesn't know the difference between the Internet and the Web but...
02:34:34 [wmf]
it was announced that it's not RMS IIRC
02:34:45 [AaronSw]
oh? where?
02:34:49 [AaronSw]
at least whomever hasn't abused it
02:35:10 [wmf]
I think raph was hoping that sites like /. or k5 would pick up his trust metrics, but nobody did
02:35:49 [redmonk]
so advogato is a big test of trust metric algorithms? (please don't mock - the closest i get to being a free software hacker is reading /.)
02:35:56 [redmonk]
;-)
02:36:03 [wmf]
yes, that's how I see it
02:36:19 [GabeW]
i thought it was just for ego-boosting uber-hacker-geeks
02:36:30 [AaronSw]
hmm, neurogato isn't tansaku
02:36:32 [wmf]
GabeW: that's just a free bonus
02:36:36 [redmonk]
that's what i said = "trust metric" ;-)
02:37:02 [rillian]
sourceforge implemented some of the trust metric stuff
02:37:08 [rillian]
I don't think many people use it though
02:37:12 [AaronSw]
Yeah.
02:37:16 [AaronSw]
And the diary stuff too.
02:37:36 [wmf]
I don't think sourceforge uses anything resembling the advogato algorithm
02:37:57 [AaronSw]
Hm. the ui seems pretty similar
02:38:20 [AaronSw]
.google sourceforge trust metric algorithm
02:38:20 [xena]
sourceforge trust metric algorithm: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/PeerRatingSystem
02:38:25 [redmonk]
i think the trust metric stuff is interesting, but i don't know that the real test will come until you have a situation where trust is really required.
02:38:37 [wmf]
redmonk: I agree
02:39:12 [GabeW]
a separate "advogato-certified" line at the airport would be nice
02:39:22 [redmonk]
i mean, ok, who can post to a webpage? i think that's why it seems so "mutual admiration"-y
02:39:30 [redmonk]
gabe: yes
02:39:42 [redmonk]
at least that's the idea
02:39:57 [GabeW]
Gabe is: a) an upstanding guy, b) a priest, c) the Pope
02:40:10 [redmonk]
or how about a credit-rating system based on trust-metrics?
02:40:22 [GabeW]
hehe
02:40:26 [redmonk]
there's the killer-app
02:40:28 [GabeW]
it sorta works that way now
02:40:35 [redmonk]
well, yeah
02:40:35 [wmf]
actually, eBay could probably use something like that
02:40:37 [GabeW]
only the people who get to rate you are the ones who grant you credit
02:40:42 [redmonk]
wmf: yes
02:41:03 [GabeW]
and Fair Isaac develops and runs the algorithm
02:41:06 [AaronSw]
raph sounds upset that people are still reading /.
02:41:13 [redmonk]
gabe: yeah, what you want is for the people who know you to be able to rate you, then the credit companies use that metric
02:41:25 [GabeW]
redmonk: but that would be useless, really
02:41:29 [wmf]
having no credit certainly does suck...
02:41:46 [redmonk]
wmf: having great credit can suck too ;-)
02:41:50 [GabeW]
the credit granting companies have zero trust in anybody but each other and only a little at that
02:42:16 [redmonk]
i know
02:42:31 [sbp]
* sbp reads Tim Bray's latest namespaces stuff - some contentious points in there
02:42:48 [AaronSw]
good contentious or bad contentious?
02:43:25 [wmf]
don't you guys know that all namespaces are an evil conspiracy?
02:44:16 [AaronSw]
oh? are they alien rays designed to attack Frontier?
02:44:25 [redmonk]
wmf: now you sound like Dave
02:44:27 [redmonk]
lol
02:44:31 [wmf]
I don't know the details
02:44:37 [AaronSw]
Who should I ask?
02:44:59 [sbp]
Aaron: Hmm... somewhere in between
02:45:28 [redmonk]
re: frontier - the only Frontier stuff that uses namespaces is the SOAP client/server
02:45:32 [redmonk]
and it's hacked it
02:45:35 [redmonk]
er, hacked in
02:46:01 [redmonk]
IIRC, there's no way in Frontier's XML engine to do namespaces
02:46:05 [AaronSw]
Yeah.
02:46:26 [redmonk]
* redmonk ducks
02:46:31 [GabeW]
GabeW has quit ("Client Exiting")
02:47:22 [redmonk]
well, i meant no disrespect to Frontier per se, but it's truth that the XMl engine needs an update
02:49:47 [wmf]
I showed the royal suite to my brother; he was impressed at my pundit status
02:50:11 [AaronSw]
I was thinking that you should get an extra special QuickTime Broadcaster Pundit Edition.
02:50:27 [AaronSw]
Live webcasts with running commentary.
02:50:46 [redmonk]
hehe
02:51:32 [sbp]
sbp has left #swhack
02:51:41 [AaronSw]
hey!
02:51:59 [wmf]
ooh, you have a new home page
02:52:09 [wmf]
hey what? :-)
02:52:11 [AaronSw]
Ah, yeah. Apparently it's screwy in OmniWeb
02:52:18 [AaronSw]
hey at sbp leaving
02:53:32 [wmf]
you know, The Caassini Division is a great book about the Singularity
02:54:19 [rillian]
wmf: haven't read that one
02:54:21 [AaronSw]
heh. Dave removed me fron his left-bar links after i stopped using Radio.
02:54:29 [rillian]
but the two others I've read were interesting
02:54:32 [AaronSw]
wmf, I bought the Star Fraction at Borders the other day
02:54:34 [redmonk]
heh
02:54:44 [wmf]
cool
02:55:04 [AaronSw]
Heh, I've been blogged!
02:55:10 [wmf]
that's the weakest of the three that I've read, but it's probably good to read them in order
02:55:35 [redmonk]
asw: by whom?
02:55:38 [AaronSw]
by wmf
02:55:41 [redmonk]
ah
02:55:53 [rillian]
* rillian liked the canal one the best so far
02:56:02 [wmf]
AaronSw has the low-latency HTP direct connection
02:56:13 [wmf]
yes, I think The Stone Canal is the best
02:56:14 [AaronSw]
indeed.
02:56:33 [rillian]
rillian has changed the topic to: Don't let THEM immenetize the eschaton!
02:56:41 [rillian]
or however you spell it
02:56:42 [AaronSw]
.spell immenitize
02:56:51 [xena]
potential spellings for immenitize are: immunities, immensities, immensity, amenities, enmities, ilmenites, inanities, intimacy, amanitas, amenity
02:56:59 [AaronSw]
immanentize
02:57:07 [AaronSw]
AaronSw has changed the topic to: Don't let THEM immanentize the eschaton!
02:57:10 [AaronSw]
is that in there too?
02:57:11 [redmonk]
have any of you guys read orson scott card?
02:57:16 [AaronSw]
yep
02:57:27 [redmonk]
cool
02:57:28 [AaronSw]
i read the first two ender books, gonna read the third eventually
02:57:36 [redmonk]
i read the whole ender series
02:57:42 [wmf]
yeah, immanentizing the eschaton is mentioned in the stone canal
02:57:45 [redmonk]
and the "shadow of"
02:57:54 [wmf]
I've read the whole ender series as well
02:57:54 [AaronSw]
I never read after Ender's Game.
02:58:02 [AaronSw]
3000 years was too much for me.
02:58:02 [redmonk]
it's worth it
02:58:05 [redmonk]
nah
02:58:15 [wmf]
I'm waiting to hear more about Peter
02:58:18 [redmonk]
he does it better than Isaac Asimov
02:58:23 [AaronSw]
wmf, did you hear about the new book?
02:58:33 [AaronSw]
there's an immediate sequel to ender's game
02:58:41 [AaronSw]
it's like shadow of the buggers or something
02:58:46 [rillian]
rillian has changed the topic to: Don't let THEM immenintize the eschaton!
02:58:56 [AaronSw]
i thought it was immanentize
02:58:58 [wmf]
well I read Shadow of the Hegemon
02:59:04 [AaronSw]
ah, that's it
02:59:08 [redmonk]
it's ok
02:59:21 [redmonk]
i liked Ender's Shadow better though
02:59:25 [wmf]
it's immanentize
02:59:50 [AaronSw]
wmf, can you fix it? my client inserts some weird color character
02:59:56 [rillian]
wmf: that's McCloud's spelling?
03:00:01 [jeremiah]
hello
03:00:08 [rillian]
there seems to be several spellings extant
03:00:09 [wmf]
Shadow of the Hegemon was kind of boring because I don't find Bean all that interesting
03:00:22 [wmf]
can I fix what?
03:00:28 [AaronSw]
the topic spelling
03:00:42 [rillian]
rillian has changed the topic to: Don't let THEM immanentize the eschaton!
03:00:51 [AaronSw]
or rillian ;)
03:01:09 [wmf]
that's the spelling used in Illuminatus! and thus picked up by MacLeod
03:01:11 [AaronSw]
So Speaker of the Dead is good, eh?
03:01:22 [redmonk]
yes
03:01:32 [rillian]
very good
03:01:45 [redmonk]
it's excellent in fact
03:01:51 [AaronSw]
Hm.
03:02:02 [rillian]
"the word is immAnent, meaning all-pervasive, everywhere all at once"
03:03:44 [rillian]
"Try looking in *your* closed for the exchaton. I'm sure you'll find one there."
03:03:56 [wmf]
now all the people google for "quicktime broadcaster hack" will find your quote, AaronSw
03:04:05 [AaronSw]
:-)
03:05:10 [wmf]
grrr, sourceforge down for maintenance
03:05:13 [AaronSw]
Wow: http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2000/02/03/card/
03:05:21 [AaronSw]
again?
03:05:26 [AaronSw]
you can tell because #sourceforge is full
03:07:06 [rillian]
we moved out of sourceforge cvs this weekend :P
03:13:12 [wmf]
that's a very weird interview
03:15:32 [AaronSw]
Yeah, it is.
03:16:12 [AaronSw]
Good ending.
03:16:18 [AaronSw]
"I fantasize about pressing a button that makes my space fleet blast Card into tiny fragments whose DNA will never bother me again."
03:16:25 [AaronSw]
;-)
03:16:28 [wmf]
heh
03:16:34 [wmf]
I didn't bother reading that far
03:18:29 [AaronSw]
I'm considering writing up a "CSS for Dave" article.
03:18:41 [wmf]
probably a waste of time
03:18:53 [wmf]
it seems like everything has been said on that topic
03:18:57 [AaronSw]
Really? I think I've found the winning answer: "CSS is just a client-side CMS"
03:19:11 [AaronSw]
has anyone said that?
03:19:32 [wmf]
I wouldn't try to sell a client-side CMS to Dave, and I don't believe that CSS is one anyway
03:19:43 [AaronSw]
Heh.
03:20:59 [wmf]
copying comments from k5 to /. seems popular lately
03:34:50 [wmf]
@ http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=28169&threshold=0&commentsort=3&tid=158&mode=thread&cid=3029848
03:34:57 [chumpster]
A: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=28169&threshold=0&commentsort=3&tid=158&mode=thread&cid=3029848 from wmf
03:39:07 [redmonk]
redmonk has quit ("cya")
03:40:12 [AaronSw]
What does that have to do with anything?
03:40:30 [wmf]
nothing, but I thought it was funny
03:40:53 [AaronSw]
Yeah, it looks funny.
03:40:56 [wmf]
I'm not sure why anybody's surprised that Fred Durst is an asshole
04:06:15 [wmf]
wmf has quit ("wmf has no reason")
04:27:57 [AaronSw]
A:|Limp Bizkit guitarist search
04:27:58 [chumpster]
titled item A
04:31:41 [AaronSw]
@ http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/000169
04:31:43 [chumpster]
B: http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/000169 from AaronSw
04:31:50 [AaronSw]
B:|CSS: Client-side rendering rules
04:31:51 [chumpster]
titled item B
04:31:59 [AaronSw]
B::Comments gratefully appreciated.
04:31:59 [chumpster]
commented item B
04:32:02 [AaronSw]
[that means you, sbp]
04:32:30 [redmonk]
redmonk (~steve@ip68-2-192-160.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #swhack
04:33:02 [redmonk]
redmonk is now known as rm_packing_to_move
04:33:36 [rm_packing_to_move]
deux_x: hey what's the deal with arboretum? ;-)
04:36:38 [AaronSw]
where you moving to?
04:36:45 [rm_packing_to_move]
into as house
04:36:48 [rm_packing_to_move]
er, a house
04:37:07 [rm_packing_to_move]
about 8 mi away
04:37:17 [rm_packing_to_move]
we move this wknd
04:38:30 [rm_packing_to_move]
i still have rdf/db questions btw, but it's gonna have to wait until later tonight (as the name implies we're packing)
04:40:28 [rm_packing_to_move]
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04:54:06 [rm_away]
rm_away is now known as rm
05:03:35 [AaronSw]
okedoke
05:13:44 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw writes Dave-CSS off as an unsoluable problem
05:13:52 [AaronSw]
.spell unsoluble
05:13:52 [xena]
potential spellings for unsoluble are: insoluble, unsalable, unsellable, unassailable, insolubles, insolubly, unusable, unsuitable, unsuitably, unguessable
05:13:58 [AaronSw]
insoluble problem
05:14:07 [rm]
unsolvable
05:14:19 [AaronSw]
Heh, unsolvable problem.
05:14:23 [rm]
insoluble means "will not disolve in"
05:14:35 [rm]
hi again
05:14:42 [AaronSw]
aargh! i hate it when Entourage deletes a message i'm working on
05:14:53 [rm]
d'oh!
05:27:15 [tansaku]
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05:28:22 [AaronSw]
lol: http://x42.com/snap/2000/05/dishcloth/
05:29:15 [AaronSw]
His site is very funny.
05:33:12 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw is away: doing work
05:33:15 [AaronSw]
bye
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14:42:44 [AaronSw]
ugh
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15:01:56 [iBitsko]
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15:01:59 [iBitsko]
morning
15:04:35 [iBitsko]
for reference, CSS is not XSL. XSL is not DSSSL. DSSSL is not TeX. "ooh, look, I can change the pretty colors and fonts" doesn't seem like a big deal to me ;)
15:05:23 [iBitsko]
Aaron: "letting the HTML simply store the content and CSS take care of the presentation.
15:05:32 [AaronSw]
morning
15:05:34 [iBitsko]
" is so not the case
15:05:42 [AaronSw]
it is for me
15:05:59 [iBitsko]
how so?
15:06:02 [AaronSw]
My CSS sites have no presentation code.
15:06:14 [iBitsko]
I'll buy that.
15:06:34 [AaronSw]
So doesn't "letting the HTML simply store the content and CSS take care of the presentation." follow?
15:06:36 [iBitsko]
and I'll probably note that I prefer what the site looks like without using the CSS at all ;)
15:06:46 [AaronSw]
That's fine -- even good.
15:07:14 [AaronSw]
I'd note that you must be using some crazy browser, or have an odd sense of taste, but ok. ;)
15:07:35 [iBitsko]
no, it's mere eye candy
15:08:05 [AaronSw]
Oh, I think I sort of understand now... that's what I meant.
15:08:38 [wendolyn]
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15:10:26 [iBitsko]
CSS lets you make macros for fonts and colors. "seperating content from presentation" it does not.
15:11:02 [AaronSw]
So how would I separate content from presentation?
15:11:49 [iBitsko]
XSL is the obvious next step, as it at least allows one to reorder and make presentation decisions based on predefined values.
15:12:32 [AaronSw]
Yeah, but I think it's generally overkill for text-content sites.
15:12:44 [AaronSw]
i mean, i think adding more detailed semantic markup would be good.
15:12:51 [iBitsko]
why? that's the whole purpose of a CMS
15:12:55 [tansaku]
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15:13:06 [AaronSw]
I dunno, I guess Sean found the breakdown... it was 70/30 or something
15:13:11 [iBitsko]
in current architecture, it's the CMS that is seperating content from presentation.
15:13:35 [AaronSw]
But not everyone can afford a CMS, thus CSS.
15:13:54 [AaronSw]
Not everyone wants a CSS (the w3c, for example)
15:13:55 [iBitsko]
please!
15:14:00 [AaronSw]
err CMS
15:15:04 [iBitsko]
I wasn't saying anything about affording a CMS, I said that in current architecture it is typically the "CMS" bit that is doing the gruntwork of seperatign content from presentation.
15:15:31 [AaronSw]
And I think that's a bad architecture.
15:15:42 [iBitsko]
CSS cannot, for example, generate a table of contents or an index. at least XSL can do that.
15:16:09 [AaronSw]
Hm, that's true and would certainly be a useful feature.
15:16:10 [iBitsko]
partially.
15:16:20 [AaronSw]
We had that feature in xWebL
15:17:23 [iBitsko]
think of it this way. a weblogger in an ideal world stores "nodes" of their info at URLs. the client assembles those nodes and presents them. XSL can't do that. DSSSL comes real close.
15:17:38 [AaronSw]
I would like that.
15:17:50 [AaronSw]
XSL can't do that? why?
15:18:15 [iBitsko]
no logic structures
15:18:21 [iBitsko]
no navigation
15:18:37 [iBitsko]
no state maintenance.
15:18:49 [AaronSw]
My concern with turing-complete languages like XSL is that people will have a hard time modifying them programmatically, since there's the halting problem and stuff...
15:20:45 [iBitsko]
little problems like that don't seem to be holding back progress so far ;)
15:21:10 [iBitsko]
not that one shuoldn't be concerned about avoiding it, of course
15:21:27 [Morbus]
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15:21:43 [AaronSw]
i guess it's the old FOs considered harmful thing
15:22:18 [Morbus]
AaronSw, did you sign up for the 2.0 beta test?
15:22:26 [AaronSw]
of MT? no
15:22:28 [Morbus]
of Movable Type?
15:22:33 [Morbus]
ah. looks good.
15:22:35 [AaronSw]
it was too late when i went to try
15:22:39 [AaronSw]
that's cool
15:22:55 [AaronSw]
do they get rid of .html links?
15:23:09 [Morbus]
i doubt it, since that's a user changeable setting.l
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15:23:13 [iBitsko]
is there a discourse on FO CH?
15:23:19 [Morbus]
i mean, its right there in the Blog Settings.
15:23:25 [AaronSw]
no it's not, we went over this
15:23:29 [Morbus]
unless i'm missing something.
15:23:39 [AaronSw]
.google formatting objects considered harmful
15:23:39 [xena]
formatting objects considered harmful: http://www.operasoftware.com/people/howcome/1999/foch.html
15:23:50 [AaronSw]
there you go, iBitsko
15:24:00 [iBitsko]
* iBitsko needs to get used to that ;)
15:24:20 [AaronSw]
google everywhere
15:24:50 [iBitsko]
if the premise is that we should not have a web of FOs any more than a web of presentational HTML, I agree 100%
15:25:09 [AaronSw]
i think it's a slipper slope argument.
15:25:43 [iBitsko]
FOs are the output of rendering, and pretty much the last step occuring on the client side. ideally.
15:26:01 [AaronSw]
yeah, his concern is that web designers will do it on the server-side
15:26:32 [AaronSw]
my concern is that if we move to a web of XSL, then we'll need a new user stylesheet for every xml format
15:26:58 [Morbus]
.google glenn simpson
15:26:58 [xena]
glenn simpson: http://www.zoneradio.com/wkit/glenn.html
15:26:59 [iBitsko]
I happen to like the component model, thank you ;)
15:27:13 [AaronSw]
hm? context?
15:28:09 [iBitsko]
that is to say, having a stylesheet per blobl of data is not a bad thing, and gathering blobs of styled boxes (components) into a rendered page seems to be the general goal already
15:28:40 [AaronSw]
Ah. Presenting data is a whole 'nother story.
15:29:17 [iBitsko]
oh, and yes, there should be a stylesheet for every xml format. even more than one.
15:29:32 [AaronSw]
I don't like that idea so much myself. I don't want the navigational clutter and the three page copyright notice on every page.
15:29:46 [AaronSw]
And I don't think the blind people can keep up with all the XML formats.
15:30:23 [Morbus]
mmMMmm. copyyyright.
15:30:56 [iBitsko]
I've never seen a three page copyright notice on every page, and lots of sites already do component rendering.
15:31:33 [AaronSw]
[ I was exaggerating a bit ]
15:33:11 [iBitsko]
and I suspect natural xml formats would be far easier to navigate raw by the blind than most any presentation of it.
15:33:59 [AaronSw]
That's an interesting thought.
15:34:10 [iBitsko]
"presentation" seems to be most commonly desired by people who want more flash for their pages so they can gain mutual admiration points
15:34:26 [AaronSw]
Heh.
15:36:08 [AaronSw]
Morbus, do the MT pages have decent <title>s?
15:36:11 [wendolyn]
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15:36:25 [Morbus]
the news ones? i dunno, lemme check. i've overridden them all.
15:36:38 [AaronSw]
no, the mt.cgi ones
15:38:04 [Morbus]
nope, all the same.
15:38:19 [AaronSw]
urgle
15:39:12 [iBitsko]
centering on the original point tho, CSS does only a very tiny part of this, and argually an unnecessary part once you're using a "real" stylesheet system that does more
15:39:44 [AaronSw]
I suppose so.
15:40:05 [iBitsko]
which is mostly why I giggled at the "CSS Rules" arguments
15:40:32 [AaronSw]
All I can say is that I'm not presenting data (for the most part) so CSS is good enough for me.
15:40:51 [AaronSw]
And you can believe me when I say I'm not going to learn XSL so I can have a nice-looking website.
15:40:55 [AaronSw]
But CSS was easy to learn.
15:43:55 [iBitsko]
XSL is for things like the swhack weblog that pulls together individual items from seperate containers. not for "documents" or "articles"
15:44:39 [iBitsko]
thinking of structure-only HTML as DocBook-lite is exactly right
15:47:03 [iBitsko]
as a counter example, for quite some time (still?) McCusker's site is completely hand-written HTML.
15:47:44 [iBitsko]
I'm not sure you could point to a site in more need of XSL and content seperation
15:48:02 [iBitsko]
(he's mentioned it himself, of course ;)
15:48:11 [AaronSw]
:)
15:48:17 [AaronSw]
he surfs with css off, of course
15:49:34 [iBitsko]
yes, it makes it easier to pull information out during quick surfs, if you're not fighting pink-on-green blogs
15:51:07 [iBitsko]
that's another direction even CSS could help with, letting the user select styles that "work with" different sites, rather than randomly overriding them
15:52:42 [AaronSw]
yes, sbp suggested that
15:52:48 [AaronSw]
an if-then sort of thing
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15:59:43 [iBitsko]
one of the goals of an early *ML project of mine (even predates my coming into SGML ;) was stylesheet middleware, given a source format and a desired presentation, the middleware transformed thru an intermediate format that made it N+M vs. N*M
16:00:12 [AaronSw]
Oh, interesting.
16:00:14 [iBitsko]
(I'm sure there's an O() form for that equation ;)
16:01:20 [iBitsko]
when I got to SGML, I then had tons of source formats to work with. I had it working with DocBook, TEI, LinuxDoc, and HTML, with output to plain text, HTML, RTF and TeX
16:02:31 [iBitsko]
the middle format could be called "content objects", if you will, in that they represented various content in a more neutral form, but yet still without most presentation aspects (formatting objects)
16:05:13 [AaronSw]
Hm.
16:07:10 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw posts his CodeCon wrapup
16:11:46 [iBitsko]
where?
16:12:11 [AaronSw]
http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/000170
16:12:32 [AaronSw]
my pre-blogging is here: http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/000166
16:22:23 [iBitsko]
how well does BitTorrent work? I was just thinking about that yesterday, as I was looking for multi-megabyte samples of HDTV MPEG2s
16:23:09 [iBitsko]
it's almost impossible to find DVD sample MPEG2s, because the sites can't handle the load
16:24:18 [iBitsko]
otoh, I can't see how BitTorrent would make one site's bandwidth usage any better than throttling would ;)
16:28:58 [AaronSw]
Heh, yeah.l
16:29:14 [AaronSw]
BitTorrent works pretty well, apparently.
16:29:24 [AaronSw]
Problem is NAT, of course.
16:29:36 [AaronSw]
I'll have to join in next time Bram does a test.
16:32:19 [AaronSw]
Anyone know why bash no longer adds '/' when I tab-complete filenames that are links to directories?
16:33:41 [iBitsko]
not me
16:34:19 [iBitsko]
"problem is NAT" for home-networks? or for people at work?
16:34:28 [AaronSw]
both, i guess
16:34:59 [iBitsko]
is BT the one that works over FTP or its own protocol?
16:35:11 [AaronSw]
it's own protocol, i'm pretty sure
16:36:39 [iBitsko]
well, for most smart firewalls, they need only write crystal-boxes to install on the NAT ;)
16:37:39 [iBitsko]
Apple has a really nice NATting proxy for QT, if one could ever get it to work... doh!
16:37:48 [AaronSw]
hm
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17:06:49 [sbp]
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17:07:10 [sbp]
on the CSS/XML conversation last night...
17:07:14 [sbp]
what a load of bollocks!
17:07:36 [AaronSw]
.time
17:07:37 [sbp]
example nuttiness:-
17:07:40 [sbp]
15:33:11 <iBitsko> and I suspect natural xml formats would be far easier to navigate raw by the blind than most any presentation of it.
17:07:47 [xena]
2002/02/19 17:09:15.7143 Universal
17:07:53 [AaronSw]
that was this morning for me, but ok
17:08:03 [sbp]
Aural CSS is a form of presentation. Aural CSS is conceptually rather useful
17:08:24 [sbp]
ooh... it was in the afternoon for me
17:08:36 [sbp]
and FOs are fine
17:08:48 [AaronSw]
FOCH!
17:09:04 [sbp]
but only when the user *wants* them. They have to use some sort of CONNEG
17:10:27 [sbp]
anyway, I agree with most of the rest :-)
17:10:47 [sbp]
* sbp has to rant every so orften
17:11:10 [AaronSw]
Heh. "This has been, Sean's Morning Rant."
17:11:24 [sbp]
heh, heh. "goodnight, and thanks for listening!"
17:11:30 [sbp]
s/night/morning/
17:11:52 [sbp]
* sbp lobbies for the world to use a single time standard
17:12:08 [AaronSw]
.beats
17:12:08 [xena]
The time is @759 at the tone.
17:12:32 [AaronSw]
then there's tav.beats:
17:12:32 [AaronSw]
.tavtime
17:12:32 [xena]
2313.16.09.14.22
17:12:34 [sbp]
heh. How many beats till The Simpsons, I wonder? :-)
17:12:39 [sbp]
tavtime? oh dear...
17:12:53 [AaronSw]
yeah, you know that'll be bad
17:12:53 [sbp]
blimey. That's really... not complicated at all
17:13:00 [AaronSw]
.tavtime
17:13:00 [xena]
2313.16.09.14.50
17:13:11 [AaronSw]
it's the year 2313?
17:13:15 [sbp]
ooh, it increments in a similar way to standard time
17:13:24 [sbp]
yeah, why not. Welcome to the future
17:14:03 [AaronSw]
.time est
17:14:03 [xena]
Feb. 19, 2002 12:15 pm US/Eastern
17:14:07 [AaronSw]
.time pst
17:14:07 [xena]
Feb. 19, 2002 9:15 am US/Pacific
17:14:12 [AaronSw]
.tavtime
17:14:12 [xena]
2313.16.09.16.02
17:14:17 [AaronSw]
.time pst
17:14:17 [xena]
Feb. 19, 2002 9:15 am US/Pacific
17:14:32 [AaronSw]
hm. we'll it appears to be a PST plus a minute
17:14:33 [AaronSw]
.time pst
17:14:33 [xena]
Feb. 19, 2002 9:16 am US/Pacific
17:15:12 [sbp]
perhaps that's just fluke
17:15:20 [sbp]
a "second" might be 1.001 of our normal seconds
17:15:26 [AaronSw]
.tavtime
17:15:27 [AaronSw]
or at least a couple seconds
17:15:27 [xena]
2313.16.09.17.17
17:16:04 [AaronSw]
ooh, that'd be a mess
17:16:23 [sbp]
17:12:32 <xena> 2313.16.09.14.22
17:16:24 [sbp]
17:13:00 <xena> 2313.16.09.14.50
17:16:24 [sbp]
17:14:12 <xena> 2313.16.09.16.02
17:16:24 [sbp]
17:15:27 <xena> 2313.16.09.17.17
17:16:32 [sbp]
ten seconds behind
17:16:42 [AaronSw]
i think your clock is off
17:16:51 [AaronSw]
or its is
17:16:53 [sbp]
that's from the #swhack logs...
17:17:39 [AaronSw]
Hm.
17:22:16 [sbp]
[actually, 1:50 ahead...]
17:22:35 [sbp]
Hmm... so if "9" is really an hour
17:22:56 [sbp]
the .16 must be somewhere in between days and months
17:23:14 [sbp]
I suspect the time measure is too short, since we have 2313 years by now
17:23:53 [sbp]
OTOH, perhaps it starts from 311BC
17:24:04 [sbp]
.google "313 BC"
17:24:04 [xena]
"313 BC": http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/Year_in_Review_4th_Century_BC
17:25:14 [sbp]
aha: "in 313
17:25:14 [sbp]
BC, Emperor Qin decided to move his court to the south bank of the Wei River
17:25:21 [sbp]
" - http://www.chinatour.com/attraction/xian.htm
17:25:45 [sbp]
or: "In 313 BC. Alexander the Great invaded Egypt." - http://www.stshenouda.com/coptlang/copthist.htm
17:26:12 [sbp]
wow: imagine trying to find that information in under a minute before the Web. You'd have to ask relatives, look through books, walk to a library...
17:26:29 [AaronSw]
Yeah, makes you think...
17:26:50 [sbp]
it's weird because I don't remember having to do that. I think I take the Web for granted already
17:31:48 [sbp]
topic in #sbp:-
17:31:48 [sbp]
[17:01] *** Topic is 'xena: better than a +P!'
17:31:49 [sbp]
[17:01] *** Set by sbp on Tue Feb 19 01:25:03
17:34:06 [sbp]
argh, why will IE style <acronym>, but not <abbr>?
17:36:27 [sbp]
lol @ immanentize the eschaton!
17:37:04 [AaronSw]
heh
17:37:38 [sbp]
* sbp adds it to his vocabularly
17:38:30 [sbp]
now, when someone says "I live in a wonderful home, and have a wonderful life. It's heaven on Earth!", I can say "don't immanentize the eschaton!", and I'll be institutionalized
17:38:40 [sbp]
until I point them at http://www.chaosmatrix.com/lib/chaos/texts/ite.html of course
17:39:13 [AaronSw]
lol
17:43:00 [sbp]
Hmm... so far, you have three quotes on my new [off-nethomepage redesign
17:43:07 [sbp]
s/net/net] /
17:43:15 [AaronSw]
heh, heh
17:46:11 [sbp]
the current working h1: "Sean B. Palmer - Mr. Phenomic"
17:46:56 [AaronSw]
[giggle]
17:48:09 [sbp]
Gotta run
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18:20:24 [sbp]
interesting:-
18:20:25 [sbp]
[[[
18:20:26 [sbp]
“The Harvard College Library in 1723,” says Perry, had nothing of Addison, Steele, Bolingbroke, Dryden, Pope, and Swift, and had only recently obtained copies of Milton and Shakespeare.…
18:20:36 [sbp]
]]] - http://www.bartleby.com/185/11.html
18:25:06 [kham]
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18:25:12 [kham]
hello sbp
18:25:15 [kham]
hello Aaron
18:25:33 [kham]
partied too much this weekend
18:26:05 [kham]
I did not drink, but partied with Spike and Ken and the Gals
18:26:10 [kham]
just chatted
18:26:14 [sbp]
uh huh
18:26:46 [kham]
and driving around making a fool of ourselves whistling at women passerbys
18:27:08 [kham]
not me but Spike did
18:27:17 [kham]
i was just the chauffer
18:27:39 [kham]
well, it's just fun and games up here in Milwaukee
18:34:55 [tansaku1a]
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18:45:50 [sbp]
argh, sorting more junk
18:45:59 [sbp]
The problem with information is that you have to organize it
18:46:18 [sbp]
One day, I'll find a good information management system...
18:49:17 [sbp]
quite a few people on #swhack today
18:50:36 [sbp]
[OLM]
18:50:49 [AaronSw]
huh?
18:50:58 [sbp]
I said: [OLM]
18:51:06 [sbp]
.acroynm OLM
18:51:30 [sbp]
xena? be a dear and de-acronymize my little teaser
18:52:44 [AaronSw]
#heh
18:52:49 [AaronSw]
oops ;)
18:59:58 [sbp]
Gotta run
19:06:42 [danbri]
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19:07:16 [danbri]
anyone here own the Xena bot in irc.w3.org? It won't leave our channel when we ask it to. Aaron?
19:07:38 [AaronSw]
hi danbri
19:07:38 [AaronSw]
you're caller number 3
19:08:11 [AaronSw]
*** xena: No such nick/channel
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19:11:07 [danbri]
Aaron, is Xena logging the channels it hangs out on? (where to...?)
19:11:21 [AaronSw]
well, it keeps logs for .seen but it has no web logs
19:11:46 [AaronSw]
but it doesn't seem to be on the W3C network, so i'm not sure what's up
19:12:07 [danbri]
we might've kicked it (cos it kept rejoining uninvited...)
19:13:10 [AaronSw]
off the whole network?
19:14:21 [AaronSw]
I brought it on so that sbp could join his #er meeting, since he was having connection problems to irc.w3.org
19:16:18 [AaronSw]
oh. oops - #sw* was still in it's autojoin settings. fixed
19:20:20 [danbri]
thanks AaronSw!
19:20:36 [AaronSw]
well, not that it'll do anything if it's been kicked off the whol network
19:23:47 [kham]
well, i gotta go
19:23:53 [kham]
have a good day all
19:23:57 [kham]
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19:32:30 [iBitsko]
iBitsko has quit ("Leaving")
20:00:54 [tansaku1a]
tansaku1a (~sam@h133-034.tokyu-net.catv.ne.jp) has joined #swhack
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wendy has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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21:40:07 [Morbus]
Morbus has quit ("http://www.disobey.com/")
22:52:01 [sbp]
Hmm... they put new bits in the three-stories/hobo Simpsons today
22:52:06 [sbp]
they must have cut them out before
22:52:13 [sbp]
for example, they cut out the funeral part at the end
22:52:30 [sbp]
and the bit where Paul/Homer throws the rock
22:52:37 [sbp]
[well, meteor]
22:53:08 [sbp]
:Meteor rdfs:subClassOf :RockyOrIronyNickelyThing .
23:12:27 [Morbus]
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23:14:55 [sbp]
Hi Morbus
23:15:07 [Morbus]
hey sbp
23:15:38 [Morbus]
i'm hoping to publish something to the ORA blog today.
23:16:09 [sbp]
great!
23:22:21 [Morbus]
* Morbus adds to DNN.
23:24:59 [sbp]
heh: oOOOh, look what I can do with camera effects and angles, and blurring! Yes, blurring and extreme closeups are good! yessss!"
23:29:35 [Morbus]
:)
23:29:40 [Morbus]
prepping a ORA post now./
23:34:19 [Morbus]
ooOh!
23:34:19 [Morbus]
http://www.oreillynet.com/weblogs/author/779
23:34:28 [Morbus]
and i'm in the left hand sidebar now.
23:47:43 [Morbus]
ack.
23:47:48 [Morbus]
kearney's a beta tester of 2.0
23:52:55 [sbp]
heh, the picture! your Weblog is an instant classi
23:53:00 [sbp]
er... classic
23:53:01 [Morbus]
:)