19:36:29 logster (~swhack-lo@xcdfddb76.ip.ggn.net) has joined #swhack 19:36:29 topic is: Alright, 'fess up: who borked #swhack? 19:36:29 Users on #swhack: logster rillian GabeW Morbus sbp xena BenSw|asleep deus_x deltab jeremiah AaronSw 19:36:36 chumpster (~chumpster@xcdfddb76.ip.ggn.net) has joined #swhack 19:36:58 yup :) 19:37:13 yeah, but I *finally* did the chump syntax right, and no one was around to see it. 19:37:43 I always felt logbots were the wrong way to go 19:37:44 Morbus, you can do it again now. 19:37:46 like services, they should really be done by the server 19:37:57 Yeah, it's apparently on the dancer TODO list. 19:38:02 nifty 19:38:17 @ http://www.movabletype.org/support/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST&f=12&t=246 19:38:23 A: http://www.movabletype.org/support/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST&f=12&t=246 from Morbus 19:38:26 though I suppose having two bots from different machines comparing notes is pretty good 19:38:45 yeah, that'd be good. same for email lists. 19:38:48 althought at the rate xena's developing xena might become OPN services ;) 19:39:26 A:|Report MT as RSS generator? 19:39:27 titled item A 19:39:31 XenaServ 19:39:52 Heh. 19:40:18 Ralph at the W3C was asking me about xena today. 19:40:36 He's got a bot called Zakim that does meeting assistance. 19:40:55 is xena python? 19:41:03 Yep. 19:41:04 yeah, and zope 19:41:36 who coded it? 19:41:52 Killarny and tav 19:50:38 tav did the Zope stuff 19:50:59 Hmm, show on usability on NPR in 10. 19:52:33 no sound card. sigh. 19:54:04 AaronSw: meeting assistance? 19:54:46 Yeah. It takes care of who's on the speaking queue, tracks who's dialed into a telephone conference, mutes and unmutes them as necessary and tracks the agenda of a meeting. 19:55:02 Oh, and you can also have it remind you when discussion runs over set time limits. 19:55:25 voice to text transcription? 19:55:31 I wish. 19:55:32 bah! worthless! 19:56:05 You'd get notes like "we should wreck a nice beach rdf no i'm speaking what huh i'm in control reificaition stop that notes" 19:57:09 lol 19:57:29 AaronSw: so it's plugged into a phone and handles the dialing? 19:57:39 It's plugged into the telecon bridge. 19:58:01 nifty 19:58:27 Yeah, so it keeps track of who's here via caller id. 19:58:35 we (ghostscript people) should really be using something higher tech than the telephone for our development meetings 19:58:56 W3C has done pretty well with telecon bridge + IRC. 19:59:42 Cool. They got Don Norman, Michael Graves and Henry Petrofsky (sp?) on NPR. 20:03:46 [[[ 20:04:02 [15:04] i wrote a story once. 20:04:02 [15:04] called "angel hair pasta". 20:04:11 [15:05] it was about this angel chick on her period. 20:04:19 [15:05] heh. 20:04:19 [15:05] morbus :-o 20:04:20 ]]] 20:04:39 You know, maybe you should have stayed in #sbp after all. ;-) 20:05:06 gassssp! 20:05:25 * Morbus sputters 20:13:11 big paste: don't forget to whip out the comments 20:14:20 Pah. I'll leave them in for character. 20:16:10 character: ah, the olde worlde rustic 'n' rural charm 20:23:03 Morbus: did you ever get that story published? 20:24:49 i had written it for fitshaced.com, where I wrote pieces under the guise of Satan. 20:25:04 i had started a big long history, where Satan was talking about the Elbib, and how he had returned to heaven. 20:25:25 shortly after I started the project, fitshaced.com died/stopped publishing, so the angel hair pasta story (part 3) never got published. 20:25:33 i think i have p1/p2 up somewhere. lemme look for em. 20:25:45 Pff. You should have bunged p3 on disobey.com 20:25:49 that was years ago. they're probably infantile now. 20:26:08 ah: 1: http://disobey.com/collected/morbus_iff/satan_repentant.shtml 20:26:14 2: http://disobey.com/collected/morbus_iff/why_santa_has_a_red_nose.shtml 20:26:21 John Swerdan: "Poor sad Mac, born in a plastic age. A time when the world still thought in beige. Crafted and molded just like a piece of art. An orphan, abandoned. It's enough to break your heart." 20:26:37 - http://wired.com/news/mac/0,2125,50161,00.html 20:27:13 clichic? 20:27:26 yeah, it doesn't exist. but i made it exist. shuddup 20:27:30 the art of being cliched. 20:27:38 hmm. 20:27:48 these are good ideas - i still have the major plotpoints fleshed out in my head 20:27:52 they need to be rewritten though. 20:27:57 heh: "In the early '60s, groups like the Beach Boys sang passionately about surfing and hot rods," he said. "I feel just as strongly about computers." 20:28:10 Gotta run 20:29:15 heh. Satan sez "It's not like I can cook anyways... I just stand there handing out change like I'm some sort of lunch lady. Of course, now I'm $2 richer, but that can't even buy a whore. 20:29:15 " 20:30:34 hmm. you know, these would do well as a diary/weblog. 20:30:54 tes! 20:31:36 guys: 20:31:37 True to his promise, Kevin Hemenway is back by popular demand with 20:31:37 [7]"Apache Web-Serving with Mac OS X, Part 4", an extension to his 20:31:37 original trilogy. He shows us how to turn off automatic index 20:31:37 generation, customise error pages, and configure access control and 20:31:39 authentication. For fans of the late Douglas Adams, he even throws 20:31:41 in a riddle about the "Hitchhiker Guide" at the end of his article. 20:31:43 Carry on Kevin! 20:31:45 from Apache Week #280 20:34:01 awesome 20:34:47 yah. the apache week people are jovial. 20:34:51 that's so cool. 20:37:50 @ http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/python/2002/1/31/pythonnews.html 20:37:52 B: http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/python/2002/1/31/pythonnews.html from AaronSw 20:37:59 B:|Cocoa for your Python? 20:37:59 titled item B 20:38:41 B::Discusses [pyobjc|http://pyobjc.sourceforge.net/], a Python<->Objective-C Bridge. 20:38:42 commented item B 20:39:35 B::"Originally written for the Next, but abandoned in 1998, pyobjc's code lay dormant until last year, when Majewski picked it up. The pyobjc module is 20:39:35 essentially a Python to Objective-C bridge. It works about the same way the Java bridge works." 20:39:36 commented item B 20:39:44 B::essentially a Python to Objective-C bridge. It works about the same way the Java bridge works." 20:39:46 commented item B 20:41:59 hello 20:42:56 hey there 20:43:55 did you have school today? 20:44:03 well, I guess you had a snow day yesterday, even though you don't go to school 20:44:55 Yeah, school today. 20:46:10 ok 20:46:24 I think I'm gonna go try to zone out and watch tv, I'll probably be on and off the computer 20:46:34 you have anything you'd like me to work on for plex? 20:49:15 i can't think of anything right now. unless you can hunt down Zooko for me ;) 20:49:18 .seen zooko 20:49:18 zooko seen changing nickname to zooko_configuring_linux_kernel ~ 2 day(s) 20 hr(s) 31 min(s) 54 sec(s) ago 20:49:29 is he the network guy? 20:49:33 yeah 20:49:35 .seen zooko_configuring_linux_kernel 20:49:35 zooko seen changing nickname to zooko_configuring_linux_kernel ~ 2 day(s) 20 hr(s) 32 min(s) 11 sec(s) ago 20:50:08 that's sorta an important step eh? 20:50:08 heh 20:50:08 (having a network, that is) 20:50:14 indeed :0 20:50:29 he disappeared to play Ogres and Pixies and never came back. 20:50:32 maybe the ogre ate him. 20:51:00 maybe 20:51:09 I don't play games very much, I've been trying to figure out why 20:51:12 I only play them with friends 20:51:34 Same here. I never play video games. 20:51:46 I play some when I'm hanging out with friends 20:51:50 but only really two player stuff 20:51:59 my interest comes more in writing them 20:52:06 that reminds me, i wanted to screw around with python opengl 20:52:22 Yeah, he and his brother made Ogres vs. Pixies. And he was going to play it with his brother. 20:52:42 that's cool 20:52:54 does it autogenerate stuff for him? 20:52:57 like maps and such 20:53:19 hm? 20:53:48 n/m 20:53:56 I'd like to write games for the gamecub 20:54:01 gamecube* 20:54:13 it looks so fun 20:54:35 what's up with the # 20:54:42 offlog comments. 20:54:46 ohhh, neat 20:55:52 Kearney: "There's no defined format for a generator, however." 20:55:52 False. Ken MacLeod came up with one, and even proposed it as an addition to RSS 0.93. 20:56:14 so, get an acct and post ;) 20:56:21 i'm too lazy 20:56:26 heh, heh. 20:56:31 you can post for me. 20:56:39 have you ever played around with ogl? 20:56:41 k. 20:56:41 it's cool stuff 20:56:46 jeremiah: open gaming license? 20:56:50 sorry, opengl 20:56:53 oh. heh. 20:57:03 must be careful about abbreviating acronyms 20:57:18 well, the o part wasn't really an acrynym 20:57:21 No, only stuff I've really messed with is pygame (python interface to libSDL) and swing. 20:57:36 is there a python interface to swing? 20:57:43 that might be interesting, if swing wasn't so slow 20:57:46 Zooko did it thru Jython. 20:57:49 hmm 20:57:51 But it's rather slow. 20:58:04 might be neat to write a pyswing->qt thingy 20:58:08 but that's for someone with more time than me 20:59:04 I have an urge to drop apple stock, sell my ibook, firewall and desktop, and just have a beautiful g4 w/cinema display sitting here for me 20:59:05 AaronSw: we should probably move this to RSS-DEV. i can throw a comment on the MT board directing people to the archives. 20:59:36 jeremiah, [drool] 20:59:40 Morbus: are you with the w3c too? 20:59:45 nope. 20:59:47 ok 21:00:13 I gave it some thought, and most of the current expanse of the w3c empire doesn't really interest me 21:00:22 but I think the things that it's working on do 21:00:29 jeremiah: my desire is the user, not specs. 21:00:30 I suppose plex is sort of a w3c spinoff 21:00:44 Morbus: elaborate please 21:00:47 The W3C isn't interested in the W3C empire for the most part. 21:00:59 i fight less for specs, than for purpose and intent. 21:01:24 hmm 21:01:48 Sometimes I think the SW team should just break off from the rest of the W3C. 21:01:58 I just found out I fell through on my calc exam 21:02:07 grade average of a 92 and a bad exam pulled me down to a B 21:02:11 the purpose and intent of kearney's thing is to corrupt XML, and the benefits of doing so (syndic8 usage, toolkit fix) do not override them., 21:02:40 this memory sparked by my visit to media.mit.edu, and the realization I'll never work there 21:02:40 heh 21:02:57 Hm? 21:03:12 kerney who? 21:03:13 The Media Lab is a curious place. 21:03:19 .google kearney 21:03:19 kearney: http://www.atkearney.com 21:03:28 .google wkearney99 21:03:28 wkearney99: http://www.ourfavoritesongs.com/users/wkearney99@hotmail.com 21:03:31 .google wkearney 21:03:32 wkearney: http://www.wkearney.com 21:04:03 That's really quite funny. 21:04:07 what is? 21:04:13 those webpages. 21:04:20 "view meta data for this page"? 21:04:27 wkearny is a useless site with metadata 21:04:28 heh 21:04:49 so was yahoo! 21:04:55 hehe 21:05:04 AaronSw: are you one of the kids that pulls 100's in math classes? 21:05:26 the annoying thing is my grade was a 99, but I got a 79 on one test, pulled me down to a 90, but I didn't care because the semester was almost over 21:05:30 and now... fudge 21:05:32 I believe that only happened to me in geomety. 21:05:40 I really don't care though. 21:05:47 well, I know that I know the math 21:05:55 That's good enough, I figure. 21:06:01 yeah 21:06:21 I don't believe in "studying" (cramming). 21:06:27 neither do I 21:06:31 I think what screwed me was trig identities 21:06:36 which is stuff I had to cram on 21:07:05 I haven't come across any math that my brain just can't understand, which is good, it just takes a little work, and I tend to get a much deeper understanding of it than everyone else 21:07:23 my dad said linear algebra screwed him over 21:07:56 AaronSw, do you have that KenM thingy about generator? 21:08:16 yeah... http://webns.net/mvcb/ 21:08:27 Morbus: can I read this stuff? is it a mailing list you'll are referring to? 21:08:31 k. i think i'll try and sound like a moron on rss-dev. 21:08:33 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-dev/message/2347 21:08:45 and http://www.movabletype.org/support/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=12;t=246 21:08:57 ok 21:08:58 .google ken macleod generatorAgent 21:08:58 no results found. 21:09:04 .google generatorAgent 21:09:04 generatorAgent: http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2001-05-27.txt 21:09:13 .google ken macleod generator 21:09:14 ken macleod generator: http://www.perlxml.com/modules/perl-xml-modules.html 21:09:29 oh, and I found out the computer science class 21:09:33 is not worth a technology credit 21:09:42 wha? what is? 21:09:51 so I am going to graduate now with 11 or 12 math credits, and I need to take some dumb CADD class next year for technology 21:10:09 either that or keyboarding 21:10:17 what's CADD? 21:10:24 Computer Aided Drawing and Design 21:10:26 like autocad 21:10:29 3d modelling 21:10:35 oh man, that's really dumb 21:10:42 yeah, i mean, it's a nice idea 21:10:49 but I think learning to use a program is a waste of my time 21:11:24 that and it's what my stepdad does for a living, so i don't like the idea of the school cranking out halfwit cad modellers that'll dilute the job market for my family 21:11:49 AaronSw: that ilrt / rdfig one had it. 21:12:06 I remember that in middle school and lower school they had WPM requirements to graduate. It was crazy, they made kids stay afterschool and type with cloths over their hands. 21:12:29 that's rediculus 21:12:33 We also had a weekly class on how to use the library. 21:12:35 although i am probalbly somewhere near 90 21:13:12 they switched the libraries from command line programs on 386's to a gui program on 233mhz desktops a while ago 21:13:17 and there was no speed gain, because of the nasty gui interface 21:13:18 i'm really fast when i'm typing out my thoughts, but much slower doing the "copy what's on the scren" exercises for keybaording 21:13:46 yeah, I'm that way too, i also suck when I'm trying to think about typing and doing it at the same time, like with this sentence 21:13:51 Yeah, are library has VT220s next to Pentiums running Netscape, and I always use the VT220. 21:14:07 yeah we have a web interface now too 21:14:11 a useless one at that 21:16:09 I thought it was sort of funny that the program for the web interface is named tramp2.exe 21:16:51 karld (~karld@groat.ugcs.caltech.edu) has joined #swhack 21:16:51 http://209.224.5.4/ 21:17:00 hey karl! 21:17:08 god why do i not block these dumbasses on my aim buddy list, it's not anything personal, but I don't care at all about what they're telling me about 21:17:15 hey aaron, what's up 21:17:20 hello karl 21:17:28 @ jeremiah, i stopped using AIM because of that. 21:17:41 err s/@ // 21:17:54 not much. what are you up to these days? 21:18:04 just working, arggh 21:18:05 well, i have people I have to talk with over aim, and a lot of friends on it, but there are some people who just fill the window up with crap 21:18:24 I should code an "ignore" thing into gaim, so that when they message me it won't raise the window, i'll read their messages only when i want to 21:18:26 and i got radio, its cool... 21:20:25 Cool. I didn't know you were a fellow adbuster: http://www.adbusters.org/campaigns/flag/debate/popup.html?id=4545 21:21:58 oh yeah, i love that magazine...so cool, so slick, so canadian 21:22:10 Indeed. :-) 21:23:27 aaronsw, how is your new server? 21:23:36 pretty good, thanks. 21:23:51 i gotta move all this stuff on to it, tho. haven't found the time. 21:24:50 where's your radio blog? 21:25:32 Mark Bernstein: "Bill Seitz is working to integrate web logs and ZWiki." Hmm. 21:26:28 http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki/ThinkingSpace 21:28:29 * AaronSw makes plans for driver's ed. classes 21:29:21 aaron, you here? 21:29:25 yes 21:29:46 this comment thing in rss 9x... if someone defined an entity in the DOCTYPE, that would still validate right? 21:29:53 regardless if they used the actual entity? 21:30:27 what i'm getting at: if rss 9x can't add a new element, and comments are bad, why not create a dummy entity in the DOCTYLE declaration that is just never used. 21:31:44 Hmm. 21:31:44 am i being dumb? 21:31:59 That's an interesting thought, but I'm not sure how an XML parser could read it. 21:32:24 I think the easiest thing to do is to just strip off the doctype and add the element in. 21:32:32 well, see, this is the thing. 21:32:36 the parser shouldn't haev to read it. 21:32:36 or make it an attribute on the element 21:32:43 well, at least in kearenys argument. 21:32:54 GODDAAAAMMMMIT why does mozilla crash all the time 21:32:58 he's saying there' plenty of reasons why the client SHOULDn't see the data, cos it would cos favoritism. 21:33:09 that's just stupid. 21:33:23 so, if syndic8 is gonna be collecting the data as a preventative toolkit measure, then let kearney have his stupid cake, and let us ignore it. 21:36:49 jeremiah has quit ("Client Exiting") 21:37:55 AaronSw, i'm gonna quote this in an email to rss-dev. 21:38:02 the above, rather. 21:38:33 hmm 21:38:41 might want to tone down the "stupid" comment. :) 21:38:55 heh, i'm just quoting my three "what if" lines. 21:39:05 i already incorporated the remove doctype thing. 21:41:02 AaronSw: DO YOU know of any good URL that would give a quick sample of how to add an element to an inline doctype? 21:41:24 .google xml doctype element 21:41:25 xml doctype element: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/network/2000/04/14/doctype/&e=921 21:41:47 oop, i meant entity, but thats ok. 21:42:05 an entity are those fun little &xxxx; things, right? 21:42:06 i think the entity idea is _really_ stupid, btw 21:42:09 yeah. 21:42:15 why? 21:42:49 because what's the point? an xml parser can't get at it, it uses obscure features of xml, you're gonna regexp it out anyway... 21:43:06 right. exactly. 21:43:20 it coincides wonderfully with kearney's comment about "clients shouldn't read this". 21:43:21 :) 21:43:30 then why not use a comment? 21:43:40 at least with that you have a rare chance of it being parsed. 21:44:00 and why are you trying to coincide with kearney's stupid ideas anyway? ;) 21:44:02 hehehe. 21:44:08 comments aren't structured though. 21:44:19 so use a PI 21:44:24 unless you consider the and the data inside. 21:44:32 i dunno how to use processing I's. 21:44:45 21:45:17 .google processing instruction xml 21:45:17 processing instruction xml: http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-stylesheet 21:47:32 at least those are structured, and required to be processed. 21:53:09 Morbus: "It's easier to shoot my girlfriend then to calmly rationalize with her." 21:53:18 heh, heh. 21:53:30 that Morbus guy is strangely calming to me. 21:54:21 when you talk about generatorAgent, you should link to http://webns.net/mvcb/generatorAgent 21:54:53 as well as, or opposed to? 21:55:10 just give it as the URL for what he's talking about. 21:55:32 because Ken asked what URI he should use for it, and i offered to host it. 21:55:50 "See http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2001-05-27.txt (where the quote below is from) as well as http://webns.net/mvcb/generatorAgent :" 21:56:02 sure. 21:56:07 and _please_ replace the stupid doctype idea with PIs. 21:56:17 awwww. 21:56:22 yer ruining my dumb party. 21:56:25 ha 21:56:28 * Morbus kicks the dirt. 21:57:03 .google xml processing instruction 21:57:04 xml processing instruction: http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-stylesheet 21:57:06 argh, 21:57:48 that's not a good one for PI's right? 21:58:01 no... 21:58:14 http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-xml-19980210#sec-pi? 21:58:23 better. 21:59:07 best: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml#sec-pi 22:00:20 PI's aren't keyed into DOCTYPE's? 22:00:53 nope, they're like comments 22:00:59 PI's can be read by any app that chooses to read them? 22:01:03 yep. 22:01:16 but so can anything else. 22:01:28 right, like the entity thingy 22:01:39 i mean if stupidCompanyA is going to try and favor stuff, then it'll do it with whatever stupid means it feels like. 22:01:49 i'm gonna favor stuff. 22:01:56 i'm making ampheta a sN only app. 22:02:02 Ah, cool. 22:02:02 too much politico with rss. 22:02:06 i'm sick of it. 22:02:22 well, then you don't need it, since sN doesn't have a doctype. ha! 22:02:51 whoo hoo! 22:05:09 [[[ 22:05:09 Well, if you're gunning for something that isn't easily recognized by client parsers (and usable by only those that specifically code for it, like Syndic8), then at least try and make it valid with the XML itself. 22:05:09 22:05:09 The easiest would be to simply remove the DOCTYPE from the feed itself, 22:05:09 then add an ops:generatorAgent as an attribute somewhere. You say elsewhere that most client apps don't validate by DOCTYPE, and this certainly has credence based on the NS/Doctype Removal Event (tm). Another option would be processing instructions, which are like comments, but structured. 22:05:12 ]]] 22:05:14 ? 22:05:24 that'd be all. 22:05:34 cool 22:13:28 AaronSw: you know anything about xdf? 22:13:42 i don't think i've heard of it 22:13:52 jeremiah (~jeremiah@ip68-10-30-131.hr.hr.cox.net) has joined #swhack 22:13:56 jeremiah_ (~jeremiah@ip68-10-30-131.hr.hr.cox.net) has joined #swhack 22:13:59 [[[ 22:13:59 I'd like to announce publically for the first time something that 22:13:59 Ive been working on here at NASA for the past few years: XDF. 22:13:59 22:13:59 XDF is a common scientific data format based on XML and general 22:13:59 mathematical principles, that can be used throughout the scientific 22:14:01 jeremiah_ has left #swhack 22:14:01 disciplines. 22:14:03 ]]] 22:14:05 http://xml.gsfc.nasa.gov/ADCSoftwareDownload.html 22:14:07 and the XDF project is described on the page: 22:14:09 http://xml.gsfc.nasa.gov/XDF 22:14:21 neat 22:14:34 some guy released a perl module for it. 22:14:44