IRC log of swhack on 2002-01-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:00:10 [AaronSw]
oh, that's what I do in rdfapi
00:00:11 [kmacleod]
PERSON and CONTACT are locally scoped in Python
00:00:19 [AaronSw]
the reason he couldn't do that is because of:
00:00:20 [AaronSw]
--
00:00:27 [AaronSw]
bob.contact_address = Thing(None,
00:00:28 [AaronSw]
contact_street = "314159 There Street",
00:00:28 [AaronSw]
contact_city = "EveryVille",
00:00:28 [AaronSw]
contact_state = "NA",
00:00:29 [AaronSw]
contact_zip = "12345"
00:00:29 [AaronSw]
)
00:00:30 [AaronSw]
--
00:00:41 [kmacleod]
the problem is that those are evaluated at runtime as attribute lookups, so they would be slow
00:01:43 [AaronSw]
I guess the thingFactory could take namespace bindings.
00:02:52 [kmacleod]
bob[CONTACT.address] = Thing(None, {
00:02:53 [kmacleod]
CONTACT.street : "314159 There Street",
00:02:53 [kmacleod]
CONTACT.city : "EveryVille",
00:02:53 [kmacleod]
CONTACT.state : "NA",
00:02:53 [kmacleod]
CONTACT.zip = "12345"
00:02:53 [kmacleod]
} )
00:03:12 [kmacleod]
er, that last '=' should be a ':'
00:03:29 [AaronSw]
Ooh, I hadn't thought of that!
00:03:56 [kmacleod]
but, that's where the RFC would come in, that all should be:
00:03:57 [kmacleod]
bob.CONTACT:address = Thing(None, {
00:03:58 [kmacleod]
CONTACT:street : "314159 There Street",
00:03:58 [kmacleod]
CONTACT:city : "EveryVille",
00:03:58 [kmacleod]
CONTACT:state : "NA",
00:03:58 [kmacleod]
CONTACT:zip : "12345"
00:03:59 [kmacleod]
} )
00:04:47 [kmacleod]
and, you could even go back to:
00:04:47 [kmacleod]
bob.contact:address = Thing(None,
00:04:48 [kmacleod]
contact:street = "314159 There Street",
00:04:48 [kmacleod]
contact:city = "EveryVille",
00:04:48 [kmacleod]
contact:state = "NA",
00:04:48 [kmacleod]
contact:zip = "12345"
00:04:49 [kmacleod]
)
00:05:11 [kmacleod]
because named parameters would "just work"
00:05:16 [AaronSw]
what would contact:city evaluate to?
00:05:32 [AaronSw]
i suggested to TimBL that he propose a URI type in Python, written <http://www.w3.org>
00:05:44 [AaronSw]
since he's giving a talk on webizing python
00:05:48 [kmacleod]
the tuple ["http://www.example.com/contact#", 'city']
00:05:57 [AaronSw]
contact:state could evaluate to the appropriate URI.
00:06:18 [kmacleod]
there's also that interpretaion
00:06:43 [kmacleod]
and that's a good "literal" for URIs too:
00:06:58 [kmacleod]
bob.<http://www.example.com/contact#city> = ...
00:07:47 [kmacleod]
unfortunately, the RDF crowd need to figure out whether URI <-> two-part names is bidirection or unidirectional
00:07:59 [AaronSw]
We got the TAG to take that one. :)
00:08:26 [kmacleod]
hehe, schlep it off on someone else!
00:08:51 [AaronSw]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ilist#rdfmsQnameUriMapping-6
00:08:54 [kmacleod]
besides RDF, is there *any* group that sees {NS}name as <NS#name>?
00:09:14 [AaronSw]
not to my knowledge.
00:09:26 [AaronSw]
it's pretty funny because apparently they rushed XML namespaces out so that RDF could use them.
00:09:31 [tansaku]
tansaku (~sam@n145-146.tokyu-net.catv.ne.jp) has joined #swhack
00:09:34 [kmacleod]
I thought so! yup, schlupping it off to some other group!
00:09:43 [sbp]
RDF does not see {NS}name as <NS#name>
00:09:54 [AaronSw]
it doesn't?
00:10:04 [sbp]
nope. It does not add a hash
00:10:12 [AaronSw]
oh, right.
00:10:24 [kmacleod]
understood, I was abbreviating
00:13:14 [AaronSw]
Hmm, this is really interesting: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stlaurent-feature-xmlns-01.txt
00:13:50 [kmacleod]
now, given the proper interface (which can be approximated in current versions of Py and Perl), one should be able to have a range of interoperable RDF|node-property data stores that are very nicely bound to the languages
00:13:59 [sbp]
yeah, in that it dredges up all of the old "what is a namespace?" discussions
00:14:08 [kmacleod]
heh
00:14:38 [AaronSw]
i like nice bindings
00:15:07 [AaronSw]
gotta run: dinner
00:15:13 [kmacleod]
me too, ttyl
00:15:25 [kmacleod]
you too Sean!
00:15:30 [sbp]
c'ya!
00:15:35 [kmacleod]
kmacleod has quit ("Leaving")
00:51:15 [BenSw]
BenSw has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
01:01:26 [tav]
tav (tav@host217-34-70-43.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #swhack
01:02:40 [sbp]
yes
01:03:16 [sbp]
[more off-log mumblings]
01:09:27 [tav]
tav has quit (devlin.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)
01:09:27 [chumpster]
chumpster has quit (devlin.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)
01:30:18 [sbp]
what did people do on the Web before Google, Alexa, and AudioGalaxy/Napster?
01:30:48 [AaronSw]
Who knows?
01:32:06 [AaronSw]
gotta run
01:32:19 [sbp]
c'ya
01:43:17 [sbp]
Hmm... on Dec 3rd. 2001 #, the top search result on Google for sha512 was http://lists.cryptix.org/pipermail/cryptix-team/2000-October/000295.html
01:46:20 [jeremiah]
* jeremiah is away: sleeping
01:55:54 [tav]
tav (tav@host217-34-70-43.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #swhack
01:57:09 [kmacleod]
kmacleod (~ken@kmacleod.static.iaxs.net) has joined #swhack
01:57:46 [sbp]
wb
01:58:15 [kmacleod]
whatever happened to the project to let me paste a URL as a login to sites, such that it picked up my info from the URL (at least as much as authorized)
01:59:26 [sbp]
erm... you mean a script to get the authority info from a URI, or something more fancy?
01:59:41 [kmacleod]
an identity server
02:00:10 [kmacleod]
authentication (or merely public info), not authorization
02:00:49 [kmacleod]
context: the reason I commented on Julian's article here is because of incremental pain of registering at yet another site
02:01:04 [sbp]
er, yep, sorry, wrong word
02:01:09 [rillian]
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02:01:16 [kmacleod]
so naturally the idea resurfaced of an identity server
02:01:46 [kmacleod]
a little blob of RDF at the end of a URL, of which could nicely be a URI for referring to said person, too
02:01:49 [sbp]
metacookie or something
02:02:48 [sbp]
my grammar parser just barfed nuts and bolts on your sentence :-)
02:03:55 [kmacleod]
a common URI for "me" is mailto:ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us, but that's a lousy URL for getting info about me. something like http://identity.org/ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us would be much better
02:04:21 [sbp]
that first URI is the URI for your mailbox, not you
02:04:22 [kmacleod]
not only can that be a URI for "me", but also a resource containing info about me
02:04:47 [kmacleod]
understood
02:06:17 [sbp]
A URI can only denote one thing
02:06:19 [sbp]
the relationship between you and that mailbox is [ foaf:mbox <mailto:ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us> ] . where [] is a bNode
02:06:24 [sbp]
[an existentially quantified variable]
02:06:30 [sbp]
but yeah, it's a good idea
02:07:00 [kmacleod]
yes. lack of preciseness on my part
02:07:14 [sbp]
however, you don't need to beg to some centralized server for identity
02:07:25 [sbp]
I mean, you have a server, I presume? Or you can use www-archive
02:07:32 [sbp]
so just put the RDF online
02:08:05 [kmacleod]
the missing piece is that anyone with the URL can paste the URL. needs "something you know" to do the final authentication
02:08:56 [sbp]
can you give an example?
02:09:12 [kmacleod]
that is to say, there needs to be a third-party authentication
02:09:19 [kmacleod]
yes
02:10:09 [kmacleod]
base scenario one: I go to VoidStar, enter my URL as my login, and enter comments
02:10:51 [kmacleod]
because I've not authenticated in any way, just pasted a URL, there's nothing preventing anyone else from pasting the same URL and forging comments
02:11:20 [sbp]
ah, right
02:11:20 [sbp]
makes sense
02:12:02 [sbp]
so really, the identity "URL" would be of more use when signing up for something
02:12:04 [kmacleod]
so, some kind of "token" needs to be added to the URL to positively verify it's me with the server that maintains the URL
02:12:32 [sbp]
I don't think you'd add it to the "URL"
02:12:40 [sbp]
you'd put it in as a separate form entry
02:12:53 [sbp]
and I don't think you'd use the URL to login
02:12:57 [kmacleod]
that's one way (the single paste method), otherwise you can type/paste the token in the password field
02:13:10 [sbp]
you'd just use a normal login name. But you could specify a list of preferred login names in your personal profile
02:13:21 [sbp]
so that when you sign up, it chooses one for you
02:13:52 [kmacleod]
the bigger picture is that I don't want to "sign up" and maintain a destinatiuon-local profile ;)
02:15:15 [sbp]
a destination-local profile?
02:15:16 [kmacleod]
again with VoidStar, here's my first time in, I find something interesting I want to comment on, I don't want to go through a registration, I just want to "log in" and comment
02:15:30 [kmacleod]
a profile maintained with the site I'm visiting
02:15:40 [kmacleod]
local to the site
02:16:10 [sbp]
Uh huh
02:16:34 [sbp]
yep, it sounds like a good idea - put you'd have to promote it
02:18:34 [kmacleod]
it's got problems of an RDF degree, that is: how can one control the amount of information given out
02:19:12 [kmacleod]
but the protocol should be really simple
02:19:53 [kmacleod]
GET http://identity.org/ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us HTTP/1.1
02:20:10 [kmacleod]
Authentication: Token=foo
02:21:12 [kmacleod]
P3P could probably be applied here
02:23:13 [DoidT]
Would this be a bit like a simpler www.trusttoolbar.com ?
02:23:29 [DoidT]
Which is for brands, companies.
02:27:03 [kmacleod]
heh, that sounds like spyware!
02:27:35 [DoidT]
Yes, ugly, but the same idea, no?
02:28:32 [DoidT]
Actually horrible!
02:28:52 [kmacleod]
in a brief review, I'm not seeing the comparison
02:29:21 [kmacleod]
it does seem to verify that the owner of the pages you're on is the same as the brand being advertized
02:29:41 [DoidT]
Ah, yes. Correct.
02:29:41 [kmacleod]
or rather, the opposite, if you see a brand but no icon, then it's not authorized
02:29:43 [AaronSw]
the identitity URL was my idea... it didn't really go anywhere
02:30:21 [DoidT]
Why ever not, I wonder - great idea!
02:30:33 [kmacleod]
yes, it's an old idea, it just hit me again is all, and made me think of the techniques of why it didn't work last go-round
02:30:39 [AaronSw]
and i had a way to do auth with it
02:31:37 [AaronSw]
it didn't work because no one implemented, i think
02:31:51 [kmacleod]
I don't think auth is very complicated, it should be a simple double-blind
02:32:25 [kmacleod]
and a simple responder, without reverse-authentication and filtering, should be a less than 50-line script
02:33:08 [kmacleod]
two important bits: simple protocol and trivial reference server code
02:33:32 [kmacleod]
trivial client code, for webmasters to incorporate would be nice too
02:33:39 [AaronSw]
i'm not sure what you mean by double-blind reverse responder
02:33:50 [Morbus]
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02:33:56 [AaronSw]
of course now-a-days we'll just get folks to use the plex
02:33:59 [AaronSw]
hey Morbus
02:34:06 [AaronSw]
can you chump http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/mac/2002/01/29/apache_macosx_four.html for us?
02:34:27 [kmacleod]
"double blind" is the wrong term for the type of authentication where there's no clear text password ever used
02:34:55 [AaronSw]
ah
02:34:57 [Morbus]
i forgot how to chump here. what's the prefix?
02:35:01 [AaronSw]
it's @
02:35:05 [Morbus]
@http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/mac/2002/01/29/apache_macosx_four.html
02:35:05 [kmacleod]
it's very similar to challenge-response, except no challenge is given
02:35:10 [AaronSw]
err "@ "
02:35:14 [Morbus]
@ http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/mac/2002/01/29/apache_macosx_four.html
02:35:29 [kmacleod]
I guess "one-time key" is the best term
02:35:39 [AaronSw]
i was thiinking that the server could redirect to your URL plus a challenge
02:35:47 [sbp]
Morbus!
02:35:49 [sbp]
WFM
02:35:54 [AaronSw]
and then you'd auth to the URL, and it'd respond with the answer to the challenge...
02:35:57 [Morbus]
* Morbus hides.
02:36:04 [sbp]
to title: X:|blargh
02:36:14 [sbp]
Hmm... where'd chumpster go?
02:36:15 [AaronSw]
oh. chumpster appears to be missing.
02:36:33 [AaronSw]
just a se
02:36:57 [kmacleod]
I was thinking that the user would have a local connection to the auth server, such that they could just copy a unique pw at any time and paste it in a login field
02:37:29 [chumpster]
chumpster (~chumpster@xcdfddb76.ip.ggn.net) has joined #swhack
02:37:36 [Morbus]
@ http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/mac/2002/01/29/apache_macosx_four.html
02:37:38 [chumpster]
A: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/mac/2002/01/29/apache_macosx_four.html from Morbus
02:37:53 [AaronSw]
that'd be interesting
02:37:59 [Morbus]
A:|Apache Web-Serving with Mac OS X, Part 4
02:37:59 [chumpster]
titled item A
02:38:10 [kmacleod]
* kmacleod figures that if chump verbosity is ever gonna get fixed, he's gonna have to do it himself
02:38:12 [AaronSw]
you could do it with public keys... like please sign this message
02:38:29 [AaronSw]
heh, confirmation is good tho.
02:38:39 [AaronSw]
there are much bigger chump bugs, however.
02:38:41 [kmacleod]
depends on who wants the authentication
02:38:51 [AaronSw]
i thin ki've fixed many, with this syntax, tho
02:39:00 [kmacleod]
it's not so much the confirmation but how much is given
02:39:23 [AaronSw]
ah.
02:39:49 [kmacleod]
Bijan's original was really best so far in that regard
02:40:02 [AaronSw]
His new one is a verbose monster, I think.
02:40:11 [kmacleod]
it's based on chump ;)
02:40:22 [AaronSw]
true...
02:40:28 [AaronSw]
it gives each comment a URI :)
02:40:29 [kmacleod]
with RDF thrown in to make it worse ;)
02:40:36 [AaronSw]
yeah, exactly
02:40:45 [AaronSw]
we should get it set up here. ;-)
02:42:16 [sbp]
so, Morbus, what's the next installment going to be about?
02:42:26 [Morbus]
mysql/php/postgresql
02:42:33 [kmacleod]
ah, maybe public-key is all you need in the generated URL. it's the destination-site that wants to verify that the paster-of-the-URL is really the-owner-of-the-URL, so http://identity.org/ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us?auth=0943093242309834098234023948 is just fine as long as that encrypted
02:42:37 [Morbus]
i spent all this morning just researching the different distro's available
02:42:41 [kmacleod]
auth verifies against the public key from that url
02:42:56 [sbp]
wow... there are quite a few
02:43:07 [Morbus]
well, specificlaly built for os x, i mean.
02:43:10 [sbp]
Hmm... database backed websites: a little RDF connection looming?
02:43:28 [Morbus]
i know very little about rdf. i wouldn't do it justice
02:43:38 [kmacleod]
hmm, need a one-time thing worked into that somehow...
02:43:48 [sbp]
It's just a datbase format... but you could start using data from other people's sites
02:43:57 [kmacleod]
to prevent replay attacks (forged logins)
02:44:03 [sbp]
so, for example, news aggregation. You know about that, don't you? :-)
02:44:23 [Morbus]
nah, i forgot all my news aggro knowledge to fit this damn db crap in there <g>
02:44:33 [sbp]
heh, heh
02:44:52 [sbp]
I guess that an Amphy update has gone out the window, then :-)
02:45:08 [Morbus]
heh, oh, they'll be one.
02:45:15 [Morbus]
i have tons of ways forward, just no time to do them in
02:47:07 [sbp]
you said you were going to add threading last time we talked about it... it would be useful: the interface is a bit jerky
02:47:32 [Morbus]
yeah, but the first thing i want to add is autocodeupdating, like RU has.
02:47:54 [Morbus]
and as part of that, there'd be a wrapper binary around the plain text code, as opposed to the large binary now.
02:48:16 [Morbus]
so, mac/win peopel could see the perl code, and mod as they want, they'd just have a single binary that would read it in.
02:48:40 [sbp]
read it in?
02:48:53 [Morbus]
i was actually thinking of adding a "no gui" flag for mac/win, so that there wouldn't be a need for it.
02:49:03 [Morbus]
the gui really presents nothing exciting to people after they've seen it a few times.
02:49:14 [Morbus]
read it in > interpret at runtime.
02:49:48 [sbp]
well, it provides the status, when getting the new feeds... but yeah, I agree
02:50:06 [Morbus]
well, it could be replaced with a dos window that disappears after finishing.
02:51:17 [sbp]
good idea
02:52:00 [sbp]
well, WinDump blows
02:53:08 [Morbus]
sbp, you should get back into laerning perl so you can help me.
02:53:16 [Morbus]
the other guy i had helping me disappeared.
02:53:24 [Morbus]
i still talk to him frequently, but he has no time to code.
02:53:28 [sbp]
who was that?
02:53:32 [Morbus]
he hasn't seen the code base since v0.24, i think
02:53:38 [Morbus]
my good friend bill from monkeymind.net
02:54:16 [sbp]
cool. Well, I don't know how much help I'd be, especially at the rate I'm looking at Perl docs.
02:54:38 [sbp]
argh, I can't get a dump at all from WinDump!
02:54:39 [Morbus]
ken: do you know if any work has been done on an xml::sax rss parser?
02:55:09 [kmacleod]
someone should come up with a Cygwin-lite tool, so that you can bundle, say, cygwin.dll, Perl, and your modules, and any other cygwin-based tools would incorporate any already-installed bits
02:56:00 [Morbus]
kmacleod: my plan is similar. i'm using perl2exe to build ampheta now, so the desire was to write a simple wrapper that would really just set up /lib/ as an additon to @INC.
02:56:23 [Morbus]
from there, all modules, cpan or otherwise, would get stuck in there, and the wrapper would just be the interpreter, with a hook to launch the main program.
02:56:31 [kmacleod]
no, I don't know if anyone's touched XML::RSS in a long while. Orchard's RSS module is based on the pre-{NS}NAME SAX2
02:56:39 [kmacleod]
so it'd be very easy to bring into conformance
02:56:49 [Morbus]
last i knew, xml:rss wasn't being touched by rael.
02:57:11 [Morbus]
the sad thing is i know nothing about sax. gimme an example, and I can go from there, but actually starting one is difficult for me.
02:57:25 [Morbus]
plus, sax stuff isn't working perfectly under the 5.004 build of macperl.
02:57:29 [sbp]
SAX-in-Python really drives me nuts
02:57:32 [Morbus]
so i'm kinda waiting for pudge to release a final.
02:57:34 [kmacleod]
is there a reason you need a sax-based one then?
02:57:42 [sbp]
that damn thing just refuses to work on so many levels...
02:58:02 [Morbus]
kmacleod: not really, no. right now, i've got a bastard one built around expat, ::parser, and ::simple. but i'd like to reduce the need for expat.
02:58:13 [kmacleod]
sbp: really? I thought Py SAX was rock solid a long time ago
02:58:21 [Morbus]
if i can ::sax and ::pureperl by default, and then use expat or another if it's there, then i can make installation a lot easier for a lot of people.
02:58:26 [AaronSw]
sbp just doesn't like event-based programming, i think
02:59:12 [kmacleod]
Morbus: ah, gotcha. yes, ::pureperl is the way to go for that, because everything you just mentioned is automatic
02:59:35 [kmacleod]
it automatically uses XML::Parser or SAX::Expat if they are installed
02:59:59 [Morbus]
right. i would love that functionality. would make linux installs super easy, as well as making binary distributions smaller.
03:00:14 [sbp]
no, no, event-based programming is fine. The SAX methodology is great, but it just doesn't work
03:00:32 [Morbus]
plus, i just want to use an event based sometime. at this point, ::simple is a memory hog on some of the large files I use. i didn't plan it out all too well.
03:01:36 [AaronSw]
sbp, what doesn't work? the cygwin distro?
03:01:38 [Morbus]
looking at the ampheta code just makes me cringe now.
03:01:56 [Morbus]
sigh. so much i want to redo. add a plugin api, modularize evertyhing like i shoulda, etc.
03:07:05 [sbp]
sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m125-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com)))
03:07:13 [AaronSw]
hm?
03:07:45 [sbp]
sbp (~sean@63.149.73.20) has joined #swhack
03:08:03 [AaronSw]
what happened there?
03:08:21 [kmacleod]
* kmacleod virtually whacks anyone who chmod +x/755 files that are never intended to be executable
03:08:33 [sbp]
Grpgmrpgmrpgprmgprmgprmgprmgpmph
03:08:34 [kmacleod]
dunno
03:08:48 [AaronSw]
Heh.
03:08:56 [AaronSw]
tav loves doing that.
03:09:13 [kmacleod]
* kmacleod then virtually whacks not the creators of color-ls, but those who made color the default
03:09:27 [Morbus]
heh, heh.
03:09:29 [AaronSw]
you can unalias it
03:09:37 [AaronSw]
not a fan of bright green?
03:09:48 [Morbus]
or red for gzip.s
03:09:54 [kmacleod]
nonetheless
03:11:21 [kmacleod]
anybody ever create multiple Apache server configs and try to keep them in sync?
03:11:42 [kmacleod]
I'm trying to figure out how much I need to replicate and how much can all point to common stuff
03:11:51 [Morbus]
nope. incidentally, my ORA articles are related to Apache.
03:12:21 [Morbus]
"point to common stuff" - with "Include"?
03:13:45 [kmacleod]
ah, I think I found it.
03:14:11 [kmacleod]
I'm setting up dev, test, and production servers and trying to duplicate as little as possible
03:14:53 [kmacleod]
the Apache I'm using comes with Oracle and has all sorts of install dirs, and I couldn't see which parts were our app and which were base install, but I think I figgered it out
03:14:57 [Morbus]
do you want multiple servers runnign at a time?
03:15:28 [kmacleod]
essentially, yes. production on port 80, test on 8000, dev on 7000, that sort of thing
03:16:01 [Morbus]
you could use one config file for them all.
03:16:13 [Morbus]
and use Define's to pick and choose your production/dev stuff
03:16:14 [Morbus]
and then command line which ones you wanted.
03:16:21 [kmacleod]
the kink in the plan is that the app is Java servlet based, and the server needs to be bounced every time the app gets updated
03:17:04 [Morbus]
and that's on your prod server?
03:17:17 [AaronSw]
urgh. tcpdump crashed my machine
03:17:30 [kmacleod]
how do defines work in Apache configs? I was thinking of just using regex replacements
03:17:40 [Morbus]
kmacleod: working on an example for ya.
03:18:57 [Morbus]
[[[
03:18:57 [Morbus]
... standard config crap ...
03:18:58 [Morbus]
<IfDefine PROD>
03:18:58 [Morbus]
Listen 80
03:18:58 [Morbus]
</IfDefine>
03:19:04 [Morbus]
<IfDefine DEV>
03:19:04 [Morbus]
Listen 8000
03:19:04 [Morbus]
</IfDefine>
03:19:05 [Morbus]
<IfDefine TEST>
03:19:06 [Morbus]
Listen 7000
03:19:07 [Morbus]
</IfDefine>
03:19:09 [Morbus]
... standard config crap ...
03:19:14 [Morbus]
and then to start:
03:19:14 [kmacleod]
seems simple enough, thx
03:19:17 [Morbus]
httpd -DPROD
03:19:20 [Morbus]
httpd -DTEST
03:19:21 [Morbus]
and so forth
03:19:38 [Morbus]
]]]
03:20:43 [Morbus]
that gives you a single config, with if's based on what your command line is.
03:20:44 [kmacleod]
the hardest part is that this all got landed on me in a tarball of the /home/oracle directory, so I'm sifting through the rubble to find the real nuggets of what they consider the app
03:21:03 [Morbus]
heh, i love crap like that. sigh.
03:21:09 [kmacleod]
* kmacleod wishes again that Oracle were available as an RPM
03:21:21 [AaronSw]
oracle is a MAJOR PAIN to install
03:21:26 [AaronSw]
i wasted 3 days on it.
03:21:31 [kmacleod]
yup.
03:21:36 [AaronSw]
oracle is a major pain in general, really.
03:21:54 [AaronSw]
it was like: how can we make a database to best torture petty humans
03:22:11 [kmacleod]
By comparison, IBM's DB2, which is packaged, took me 45 minutes the first time, and that's because 1) I did it from CDROM, and 2) Solaris's pkgadd is slow
03:22:18 [Morbus]
s/torture petty humans/justify our support costs/
03:22:43 [AaronSw]
or you can be cynical sure...
03:22:59 [kmacleod]
I've seen worse, th
03:23:00 [kmacleod]
tho
03:23:01 [Morbus]
AaronSw: when have i ever been logical? ;)
03:23:34 [kmacleod]
damn, now I can't think of their name -- one the big DB third parties
03:23:46 [Morbus]
postgres?
03:23:56 [Morbus]
openbase?
03:24:16 [kmacleod]
no, top-tier. writes apps, dev tools, monitors for the big DBs
03:24:24 [Morbus]
coldfusion? <g>
03:24:39 [Morbus]
hmm.
03:24:57 [kmacleod]
any case, not only were they not a package install, not only did they not have a Unix-based installer, noooo....
03:25:15 [AaronSw]
it's in JAVA!
03:25:24 [kmacleod]
they had an NT-based installer that installed over the net using telnet/rcp
03:25:38 [AaronSw]
oh, that's better than i had to put up with
03:25:52 [kmacleod]
"Place this CD-ROM on an NT-Server, give us your root password, and we'll talk to you in a little while"
03:26:00 [AaronSw]
heh, heh
03:26:07 [Morbus]
heh
03:26:45 [AaronSw]
i had this horrible java thing that took approx. 3 hrs to load and crashed every time it didn't like you, and turned out not to be comparible with the version of RedHat i had.
03:26:46 [kmacleod]
the only thing I hate worse is vender who *have no* standard install media, and place on-site consultants who install the software for you
03:27:32 [Morbus]
anyone on a win machien with perl installed?
03:27:37 [kmacleod]
your left with, "uh, ok, and how exactly are we supposed to maintain backups, test/dev servers, etc."
03:28:11 [AaronSw]
heh, pay them, of course
03:28:12 [kmacleod]
no win here, only at work, and they only Cygwin, not ActivePropriState
03:28:47 [Morbus]
i wanna replace my homebrew http daemon in ampheta with http::daemon. also want to add accept and fork, but dunno how well its supported.
03:28:51 [kmacleod]
I must be getting sleepy, that was a stupid slam ;)
03:29:04 [Morbus]
especially since i have gui threads to listen for as well.
03:29:14 [Morbus]
heh
03:29:29 [AaronSw]
sbp does, i bet
03:29:33 [AaronSw]
and tav
03:30:12 [kmacleod]
ActiveState: the quietest open-source fork ever accomplished
03:30:36 [AaronSw]
they forked?
03:30:57 [kmacleod]
for most intents and purposes, yes, they maintain their own distribution
03:31:11 [kmacleod]
with Larry as the nominal lead, mind you
03:31:17 [AaronSw]
Larry?
03:31:20 [AaronSw]
Oh...
03:31:35 [sbp]
heh. "Larry who?"
03:31:50 [AaronSw]
i was like, i don't know any larry who works on Python
03:32:03 [sbp]
:-)
03:32:05 [Morbus]
heh
03:32:34 [kmacleod]
Morbus: how well does Perl fork (no pun intended) under Windows?
03:32:46 [kmacleod]
and/or thread
03:32:48 [Morbus]
kmacleod: i don't know.
03:32:51 [Morbus]
it doesn't thread.
03:32:58 [Morbus]
i know i've run some POE stuff that forked.
03:33:04 [Morbus]
but i don't know how well its supported.
03:33:12 [Morbus]
thats why ampheta is single threaded.
03:33:30 [Morbus]
it kinda uses a queue system, to shift between GETing, webserving, and gui refreshing
03:33:32 [kmacleod]
ya, I'm not sure how well it'd work for you.
03:34:20 [kmacleod]
* kmacleod needs a weblog module for MoinMoin
03:34:38 [AaronSw]
.google weblog moinmoin
03:34:40 [xena]
weblog moinmoin: http://lists.infoanarchy.org/pipermail/p2pj/2001-March/000103.html
03:34:54 [AaronSw]
i didn't know infoanarchy hosted lists. hm
03:35:59 [AaronSw]
oh, they seem to be using epy which i think is twisted
03:36:28 [Morbus]
jeez, i can't find any good simple example of a accept-and-fork http::daemon.
03:36:36 [Morbus]
i have to be looking in the wrong place.
03:36:45 [AaronSw]
Aha! "ééå±ìIÇ»à²ñ°Ç‰ÉCÉìÉfÉbÉNÉXÉyÅ[ÉWÇ•mod_snakeâªÇµÇŸÇðÇÐǵLJÅB"
03:38:30 [rillian]
* rillian 's client didn't display that properly
03:38:48 [AaronSw]
Me neither.
03:39:07 [kmacleod]
* kmacleod desires so badly to rpm -e mozilla, but too many useful utilities, like Galeon, depend on it.
03:41:01 [Morbus]
argh. perlmonks is down.
03:42:29 [Morbus]
kmacleod: this touches a bit on win32 forking.
03:42:29 [Morbus]
http://www.webtechniques.com/archives/2000/03/junk/
03:49:35 [jeremiah]
hum
03:50:10 [AaronSw]
.spell midevil
03:50:14 [xena]
potential spellings for midevil are: medieval, mediaeval, Medieval, medievally, medievals, medially, mediative, mediaevals, mediately, Middle
03:50:26 [AaronSw]
[cough] jeremiah
03:51:24 [jeremiah]
:)
03:52:00 [jeremiah]
jesus
03:52:05 [jeremiah]
I am showing up on so many google searches now
03:52:21 [jeremiah]
bizzare
03:52:22 [AaronSw]
heh
03:52:30 [AaronSw]
no, it's the dave effect.
03:52:33 [sbp]
perhaps you're searching for the wrong things
03:52:49 [jeremiah]
http://referers.userland.com/staticSiteStats/referers?group=radio1&site=0001189
03:53:39 [AaronSw]
lol: http://radio.weblogs.com/0001015/images/2002/01/29/somethingfunnyhere.gif
03:53:41 [jeremiah]
probably the whole weblog effect
03:53:56 [jeremiah]
yeah
03:54:59 [AaronSw]
that's really funny
03:55:11 [sbp]
heh, yeah
03:56:00 [jeremiah]
the sad thing is a lot of people that link to me never get hits, so i can go on some engines and search for people that link to me, and find all these folks who have weblogs that no one ever visits
03:56:19 [sbp]
like me!
03:56:47 [jeremiah]
have you linked to me?
03:56:50 [jeremiah]
see, I don't know these things
03:57:07 [sbp]
dunno. Should have done
03:57:11 [jeremiah]
oh
03:57:25 [sbp]
if not, I do apologize
03:58:07 [jeremiah]
ah, it's cool
03:58:13 [jeremiah]
I dunno if I link to you too often
03:58:17 [jeremiah]
need to update that weblog of yours
03:58:18 [jeremiah]
:)
03:58:47 [sbp]
heh. I'm not going to be doing that
03:58:52 [AaronSw]
i dunno, i think daily weblogging is overated
03:59:06 [AaronSw]
with radio, it's not reallly necessary
03:59:38 [jeremiah]
I'm trying to find a balance
03:59:44 [jeremiah]
between too many updates and not enough
03:59:49 [jeremiah]
I view it now as a public journal
04:00:16 [jeremiah]
I have quite a few regular readers it seems, so I'll keep updating
04:00:34 [Morbus]
jeremiah: who are you?
04:00:37 [sbp]
ah, I do indeed link to J
04:00:46 [sbp]
M: http://radio.weblogs.com/0001189/
04:00:59 [sbp]
the great Jeremiah!
04:01:06 [jeremiah]
Morbus: I am jeremiah, who are you?
04:01:23 [sbp]
J: http://www.disobey.com/
04:01:27 [sbp]
the great Morbus!
04:01:38 [jeremiah]
http://radio.weblogs.com/0001189/about.html
04:01:49 [sbp]
Aaron: who are you?
04:02:19 [AaronSw]
I dunno.
04:02:29 [Morbus]
AaronSw is some snot nosed kids.
04:02:30 [Morbus]
i'm his dad.
04:02:37 [jeremiah]
Morbus: so you are kevin hemenway?
04:02:39 [AaronSw]
i am plural
04:02:55 [Morbus]
that be I, jeremiah, yes.
04:02:58 [Morbus]
why?
04:03:07 [jeremiah]
article on oreilly
04:03:21 [Morbus]
ah. mmHmm.
04:04:32 [jeremiah]
AaronSw: I think weblogging is a way to become moderately popular but not actually do any work
04:04:55 [AaronSw]
heh
04:05:43 [jeremiah]
now in theory i could join some developer groups and work on code (well, doing that now)
04:05:46 [jeremiah]
but that'd require too much work
04:06:41 [AaronSw]
Heh.
04:07:05 [AaronSw]
I don't think being on SN counts as being famous. :)
04:07:16 [MorbusIff]
MorbusIff (~Morbus@s114.terminal3.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack
04:07:27 [jeremiah]
I didn't say I'm famous
04:07:48 [jeremiah]
I was on japanese telvision though, so I'm moderately famous to like 4 people in japan
04:08:27 [Morbus]
Morbus has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: MorbusIff!~Morbus@s114.terminal3.totalnetnh.net)))
04:09:15 [AaronSw]
Heh, heh.
04:09:32 [AaronSw]
Yes! I know that kid. He was on Japanese TV show about "open sores".
04:09:37 [jeremiah]
yeah
04:09:39 [MorbusIff]
MorbusIff is now known as Morbus
04:09:53 [jeremiah]
"he worked for sores-x-change, I think it's a brothel for people with herpes"
04:10:23 [AaronSw]
they make good money too!
04:10:34 [tav]
actually, weblogs google effect is thankfully decreasing
04:10:45 [jeremiah]
not so sure about that
04:10:49 [jeremiah]
they're probably tuning it out though
04:11:01 [tav]
it's much better now than it was at the start
04:11:08 [tav]
it was way too perverted before
04:12:04 [jeremiah]
heh
04:15:47 [AaronSw]
oh man. get your enr on: http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/war7.html
04:19:01 [kmacleod]
* kmacleod wonders: if some Gnome apps support Emacs-like key bindings, then why does not C-Y yank the paste buffer?
04:22:29 [Morbus]
pfff.
04:22:34 [Morbus]
welp, kmacleod:
04:22:34 [Morbus]
Waiting for a connection...
04:22:34 [Morbus]
File 'Splooge:Users:morbus:Desktop:webserver-full.txt'; Line 48
04:22:39 [Morbus]
that nixes any forking attmept on the mac.
04:22:57 [AaronSw]
what the logs missed was: <Morbus> # The Unsupported function fork function is unimplemented.
04:23:58 [jeremiah]
well folks, I have a working codebase now
04:24:00 [jeremiah]
:)
04:24:06 [jeremiah]
for the berkely database system
04:24:32 [jeremiah]
allowing either one or two filled slots in the triple
04:24:58 [jeremiah]
err, moving to #plex
04:25:26 [Morbus]
welp, off to catch up on my reading. night all
04:25:42 [Morbus]
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04:25:51 [sbp]
c'ya
04:26:07 [sbp]
wow. Could we be seeing more of Morbus?
04:26:15 [sbp]
What was all that about, eh?
04:29:34 [sbp]
@ http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_507663.html?menu=news.quirkies
04:29:42 [chumpster]
B: http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_507663.html?menu=news.quirkies from sbp
04:29:54 [tansaku]
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04:29:58 [sbp]
B:|Cow 'makes nuisance phone calls'
04:29:59 [chumpster]
titled item B
04:30:04 [sbp]
B::Cows these days
04:30:05 [chumpster]
commented item B
04:30:48 [BenSw]
BenSw (~yoda@12-249-96-16.client.attbi.com) has joined #swhack
04:31:12 [BenSw]
* BenSw laughs at the topic
04:32:35 [AaronSw]
B::I get strange calls like these. But I don't think they're from Cows. I hear CNN instead of milking sounds...
04:32:36 [chumpster]
commented item B
04:32:52 [sbp]
really?
04:33:01 [AaronSw]
yeah, i know who they're from.
04:34:35 [sbp]
freaky
04:34:49 [sbp]
Dave Winer!
04:35:46 [AaronSw]
lol
04:36:15 [AaronSw]
wee'll be the top hit for "dave winer milking sounds" any day now
04:36:39 [sbp]
lol!
04:36:53 [sbp]
.google dave winer milking sounds
04:36:57 [xena]
dave winer milking sounds: http://villagenews.weblogger.com
04:40:48 [sbp]
at least it'll bring hoardes of Googlers to swhack, if not fame and repuation
04:40:49 [kmacleod]
oh, cool. I don't know if it's Oracle or Apache, but each of the config files I'm copying already has %FOO% things to regex for
04:40:54 [sbp]
er.. reputation
04:41:52 [sbp]
er... reputability
04:42:17 [sbp]
but hey, you know me: it says on my homepage that I'm a noun and adjective mixer
04:44:03 [sbp]
I like my homepage. So there
04:45:33 [kmacleod]
Zope doesn't particularly work with Apache, does it?
04:46:00 [AaronSw]
sure it does
04:46:15 [AaronSw]
it works as a cgi or something like that
04:46:35 [kmacleod]
I mean, it prefers being its own server, correct?
04:47:11 [deltab]
there are a couple of ways you can use it with Apache
04:48:03 [deltab]
you can call it through CGI, FastCGI or PCGI
04:48:17 [deltab]
or you can use Apache as a proxy
04:49:19 [AaronSw]
yes, it prefers using its own server
04:50:57 [kmacleod]
one of the guys I'm working with needs to know how to do config-mgmt with Zope apps...
04:51:51 [AaronSw]
so where are you working these days?
04:52:49 [kmacleod]
my day job is with ibsys.com, who do the web sites of some of the major US TV stations. my moonlighter is a remote sysadmin for a startup telecom marketing co.
04:53:24 [AaronSw]
Cool.
04:53:37 [AaronSw]
I know that there's some big tv station using zope
04:54:10 [kmacleod]
not ours ;) we use ColdFusion, after they trashed Perl
04:54:19 [AaronSw]
heh
04:54:21 [kmacleod]
heh, they blamed it on Perl, of course ;)
04:55:23 [kmacleod]
afaict, they'd be tons better off if they were using HTML::Mason or AxKit than ColdFusion
04:55:30 [kmacleod]
or Zope, even
04:56:34 [rillian]
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04:56:44 [BenSw]
bye bye rillian
05:00:05 [kmacleod]
Zope appears to have Smalltalk-syndrom: everything is in one big runtime blob, and trying to modularize anything for change management is hell
05:02:07 [AaronSw]
zope3 is supposed to fix this, i think
05:02:21 [AaronSw]
oh, do you mean the ZODB?
05:05:57 [kmacleod]
don't know exactly yet. I'm talking about versioning releases of Zope apps
05:05:57 [kmacleod]
it appears that everything is very intertwined
05:05:57 [kmacleod]
bet page I've found on it is: http://www.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Proposals/VersioningForContentManagement, and that ain't look pretty
05:06:47 [BenSw]
BenSw is now known as BenSw|asleep
05:09:31 [AaronSw]
laters, all
05:10:13 [sbp]
c'ya
05:11:59 [kmacleod]
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06:38:20 [tav]
goodbye all
06:38:21 [tav]
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06:42:21 [GabeW]
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06:47:19 [GabeW]
thats a cute topic
07:06:09 [tansaku2]
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07:06:27 [tansaku2]
tansaku2 is now known as tansaku
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tansaku2 is now known as tansaku
09:42:16 [tansaku]
* tansaku always thought that you could work out the probability that you would be interested in each channel by dividing one by the number of channels
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12:41:45 [Lion7]
Lion7 (~AZERTY@ALimoges-101-1-2-137.abo.wanadoo.fr) has joined #swhack
12:42:07 [Lion7]
hey all
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13:54:27 [Morbus]
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14:36:00 [kenm]
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14:36:33 [kenm]
Aaron: did you blog your identity-server info?
14:36:51 [AaronSw]
not recently
14:37:26 [kenm]
ok, I'm gonna jot some notes, probably on RESTwiki, since this would be very RESTful
14:37:41 [AaronSw]
Cool.
14:38:01 [kenm]
gotta run for now, watch the recent changes for when it shows up, I probably won't link it off the front page right off
14:38:22 [AaronSw]
okedoke
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14:51:36 [AaronSw]
J C Lawrence on Utopias
14:51:36 [AaronSw]
Don't strive for perfection, strive for expressive fertility. You can't create utopia, and if you did nobody would want to live there.
15:16:46 [AaronSw]
--
15:16:56 [AaronSw]
When the going gets tough, the tough get DanC.
15:18:13 [AaronSw]
it's patrick, jeremy vs. danc, sergey
15:18:25 [AaronSw]
and i think DanC will win, since he's got sarcasm and simplicity on his side.
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16:40:06 [Morbus]
GabeW: sys.argv[0]
16:53:41 [GabeW]
yeah
16:53:52 [GabeW]
regrtest is borked or something though
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18:48:08 [AaronSw]
Morbus writing Python? Hmm.
18:48:21 [Morbus]
huh? no, not me.
18:48:27 [AaronSw]
<Morbus> GabeW: sys.argv[0]
18:49:01 [Morbus]
yeah, cos he asked in #ia, sbp answered in #sbp, and i misforwarded into #swhack :)
18:49:10 [AaronSw]
heh
18:49:35 [deltab]
people actually say things in #sbp?
18:49:55 [Morbus]
sadly enough, yes.
18:50:21 [deltab]
had I known, I wouldn't have not bothered to rejoin
18:50:29 [sbp]
in fact, #sbp is the original #swhack!
18:52:10 [AaronSw]
We started saying things there when Morbus left here.
18:52:56 [sbp]
yeah, but now it seems as though he may be back :-)
18:54:54 [AaronSw]
JJC: "One of the downsides of being collocated with the chair is that I sometimes get leant on, perhaps more heavily than other WG members."
18:54:55 [Morbus]
oooh, don't tempt me, sbp! <g>
18:55:13 [AaronSw]
well, tav seems to have left IRC entirely, so no worries there.
18:55:59 [AaronSw]
JJC had some real problems on the telecon. He wanted to say what he felt, but you could here Brian whacking him and making him say what HP felt.
18:56:09 [AaronSw]
s/here Brian/hear Brian/
18:59:35 [Morbus]
tav left *entirely*? he's coming back, right?
18:59:45 [AaronSw]
i dunno.
19:00:01 [AaronSw]
he said "goodbye all" in every channel and then disappeared with no explanation afaik
19:00:11 [AaronSw]
maybe he's homeless again
19:00:12 [Morbus]
ah. well, he was acting all drugged up last night.
19:00:19 [AaronSw]
Heh.
19:00:24 [Morbus]
he actually danced with me and called me the man.
19:00:32 [AaronSw]
Yeah, I saw that.
19:01:21 [AaronSw]
He seems to do that sometimes. I think he ODs on his own plans for taking over the world or something.
19:15:43 [AaronSw]
@ http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?intelligent
19:16:42 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw kicks chumpster
19:19:12 [AaronSw]
C:|Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary: intelligent
19:19:13 [AaronSw]
C::defined as "guided or controlled by a computer" in sense 3. I guess Artificial Intelligence is here already -- by definition!
19:22:00 [AaronSw]
Djkstra: "[A user] is, as a matter of fact, such an uninspiring idiot that his stupidity alone is a sufficient explanation for the ugliness of most computer systems."
19:22:31 [chumpster]
C: Merriam-Webster OnLine from AaronSw
19:22:33 [chumpster]
titled item C
19:22:35 [chumpster]
commented item C
19:22:41 [AaronSw]
about time!
19:25:12 [AaronSw]
err Dijkstra
19:25:36 [AaronSw]
C::via FoRK, Dijkstra's EWD618
19:25:55 [chumpster]
commented item C
19:30:48 [AaronSw]
deltab, when you have a chance, could you forward aaronsw@mu2 -> me@aaronsw.com?
19:43:13 [AaronSw]
"Private, intellectual, impersonal, analytical and reflective, the INTP appears to value ideas, principles and abstract thinking above all else. This logical type seeks to understand and explain the universe--not to control it!"
19:44:09 [AaronSw]
Introverted iNtuitive Thinking Perceiving
20:00:25 [sbp]
<AaronSw> he said "goodbye all" in every channel and then disappeared with no explanation afaik
20:00:26 [sbp]
* sbp noticed that too
20:00:45 [AaronSw]
t2s pronounces afaik as "a fake"
20:01:05 [sbp]
yeah, I think most people do
20:01:28 [sbp]
* sbp spins around
20:01:31 [AaronSw]
really? I pronoune it "as far as I know"
20:02:01 [sbp]
yeah. There was some discussion about people pronouncing acronyms in real life as the acronyms rather than the expansions
20:02:10 [sbp]
I think the general consensus was that those people are nuts
20:03:22 [AaronSw]
I think it'd be cool to see what it's like to be blind for a week or something. I should ask gregory about it.
20:03:37 [AaronSw]
[thought process: t2s -> blind]
20:04:07 [AaronSw]
similarly, learning sign language and being part of deaf culture for a while would be similarly interesting.
20:05:00 [AaronSw]
Elias Sinderson in FoRK:
20:05:01 [AaronSw]
> In defense of my home town, however, I'd like to quote Mayor Paul soglin
20:05:02 [AaronSw]
> who said that "Madison is 30 square miles surrounded by reality..." Wait,
20:05:02 [AaronSw]
> is that a defense? I Guess it depends on how wedded to reality you
20:05:02 [AaronSw]
> really are. Me? I'll have none of it.
20:05:13 [AaronSw]
I love that quot from the Mayor...
20:05:17 [AaronSw]
.google new yorker madison flag
20:05:18 [xena]
new yorker madison flag: http://www.avalongarden.com/for-the-home-custom-plaques-house-plaques.html
20:06:01 [AaronSw]
hm, doesn't look like it's on the web
20:06:34 [AaronSw]
ooh, snow
20:07:46 [sbp]
Actually, after just coming off of IRC, a couple of times I've wanted to say stuff like "me had better get a drink", thanks to the /me alias
20:07:56 [sbp]
I don't think I've actually said it yet, though :-)
20:08:14 [sbp]
<AaronSw> I think it'd be cool to see what it's like to be blind for a week or something. I should ask gregory about it.
20:08:40 [sbp]
William wrote a bit about it: he said that you can take away your sight, but you still won't know what it's like to be blind
20:08:55 [AaronSw]
that sounds like something he would say
20:09:46 [AaronSw]
Here's another question I have: do people who are born blind know what colors are?
20:09:54 [sbp]
[[[
20:09:55 [sbp]
A few people even had their eyelids sutured closed! These
20:09:55 [sbp]
things may let you lose eyesight but they won't let you know what it's
20:09:55 [sbp]
like to be blind. It takes more than loss of vision to experience
20:09:55 [sbp]
blindness.
20:10:00 [sbp]
]]] - http://w3.gorge.net/love26/book.htm
20:10:08 [sbp]
there's an exchange about that somewhere too...
20:10:20 [sbp]
.google "Now I know what white is!" swan
20:10:20 [xena]
no results found.
20:10:25 [sbp]
Hmm...
20:10:40 [sbp]
.google white swan blind Einstein
20:10:41 [xena]
white swan blind Einstein: http://library.thinkquest.org/22494/stories/Einstein.htm
20:11:38 [sbp]
try http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:5mRm4KPh_boC:library.thinkquest.org/22494/stories/Einstein.htm+white+swan+blind+Einstein&hl=en
20:12:11 [AaronSw]
yeah
20:12:20 [sbp]
[for the logs]
20:12:20 [sbp]
[[[
20:12:21 [sbp]
"Now fluid, I know what that is," said the blind man. "but what is white ? "
20:12:21 [sbp]
" Oh, white is the color of a swan's feathers."
20:12:21 [sbp]
" Feathers, now I know what they are, but what is a swan ? "
20:12:21 [sbp]
"A swan is a bird with a crooked neck."
20:12:24 [sbp]
" Neck, I know what that is, but what do you mean by crooked ? "
20:12:25 [sbp]
At this point Einstein said he lost his patience. He seized his blind friend's arm and pulled it straight. "There, now your arm is straight," he said. Then he bent the blind friend's arm at the elbow. "Now it is crooked."
20:12:28 [sbp]
"Ah," said the blind friend. "Now I know what milk is."
20:12:29 [sbp]
]]]
20:12:52 [sbp]
so I guess the answer is no
20:13:15 [Morbus]
this sucks so hardcore.
20:13:26 [sbp]
Some people who were blind from birth but then had their sight restored actually couldn't cope with the things that they saw (according to William's book)
20:13:32 [sbp]
the book: http://w3.gorge.net/love26/book.htm
20:13:32 [Morbus]
i need fucking libc4/ld.so files for this fucking 4.0 product, which is now commercial 8.0.
20:13:47 [AaronSw]
Morbus, you need apt.
20:14:03 [sbp]
I need apt too! What's up with that and CygWin? :-)
20:14:15 [AaronSw]
tell those folks to hurry up
20:14:18 [sbp]
and man
20:14:31 [Morbus]
anyone know where i can find old ass directories of source? i'm looking for something from 1996
20:16:06 [sbp]
.google "old ass directories of source"
20:16:07 [xena]
no results found.
20:16:16 [sbp]
.google old ass directories of sauce
20:16:16 [xena]
old ass directories of sauce: http://www.skateboarding.com/article/magazine.cfm?alias_id=6406
20:16:34 [sbp]
if you can't find source, go to the sauce
20:17:25 [sbp]
heh, indeed: "In the early days, my mother nurtured and trained me in the art of incredible-ass writing."
20:18:54 [sbp]
Morbus, AaronSw, and sbp in #swhack. Suddenly, the world makes sense again
20:19:20 [AaronSw]
Oh dear.
20:19:32 [AaronSw]
if this is sense, I want to get sauce.
20:19:51 [sbp]
Barbeque, or traditional tomato?
20:20:00 [Morbus]
ack! everything is about cooking:
20:20:11 [Morbus]
[[[
20:20:11 [Morbus]
[15:20] <patti> chinese meat+veggie stuffed dumplings
20:20:12 [Morbus]
[15:21] <mimi> yeah am getting off of ameritech suckdom next week and switching locla phone service., am thinking of tossing call waiting and voice mail while im at it
20:20:12 [Morbus]
[15:21] <mimi> they're usually terrific
20:20:12 [Morbus]
[15:21] <patti> usually pan fried
20:20:12 [Morbus]
[15:21] <patti> yeah, but i've been eating at real chinese restaurants.. when i ate these before, i wasn't used to high quality potstickers.
20:20:15 [Morbus]
]]]
20:20:30 [sbp]
I'm not about cooking, but I like the whole eating thang
20:25:24 [sbp]
argh, MP3s really suck. Am I the only one who thinks that the quality of 128KBPS is deplorable? Especially the rhythm section - drums always sound so mushy
20:25:48 [sbp]
it's a good reason to go out and buy CDs
20:26:21 [AaronSw]
You and my Dad. Perhaps you should join up with those folks who think compression is evil.
20:26:29 [sbp]
it is
20:26:40 [AaronSw]
heh, see!
20:26:41 [sbp]
well, lossless compression is O.K.
20:26:48 [Morbus]
AaronSw: do you know of any pureperl (non XML::Parser/XML::RSS) rss renders?
20:27:03 [AaronSw]
nope
20:27:17 [sbp]
what really annoys me is the people who say that MiniDisc sound quality is better than CD! I mean, WTF?
20:27:17 [AaronSw]
I forget their name... bram should know.
20:27:46 [sbp]
.google Perl RSS module -"XML::Parser" -"XML::RSS"
20:27:47 [xena]
Perl RSS module -"XML::Parser" -"XML::RSS": http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rss-dev/messages/1
20:27:58 [AaronSw]
oh, yeah, there's that.
20:28:10 [AaronSw]
Orchard-Perl
20:29:38 [sbp]
Aaron, can you bridge W3C #er into opn#er?
20:29:58 [AaronSw]
is xena in w3c er?
20:30:07 [sbp]
she used to be
20:30:39 [Morbus]
yeah, this guy is green - can't install anything on the server.
20:30:50 [Morbus]
he needs it to be a single perl script, with no module dependency
20:31:01 [Morbus]
he said rss monkey gave him tons of problems, but didn't explain further.
20:36:55 [sbp]
sbp has quit (Remote closed the connection)
20:37:06 [Morbus]
AaronSw: finally found a mirror-er that would go up and down for FTP.
20:37:14 [Morbus]
it's interarchy, the old anarchie pro.
20:37:14 [AaronSw]
cool
20:37:15 [sbp]
sbp (~sean@63.149.73.20) has joined #swhack
20:37:25 [AaronSw]
aha
20:37:31 [Morbus]
i never thought they had a 5.0 dl for it, but its just not on their site (??) - you HAVE to go to a diff engine to get it.
20:37:34 [Morbus]
but they don't tell you that.
20:37:38 [Morbus]
i had a legal reg to 4.
20:37:48 [Morbus]
for being a beta tester. i wonder if my name is still in the credits <g>
20:39:04 [sbp]
sbp has changed the topic to: Two cars in every garage, a xena on every channel
20:45:42 [AaronSw]
wtf is up with this? ssh_exchange_identification: Connection closed by remote host
21:10:44 [sbp]
:-)
21:14:23 [sbp]
"Dental plan" "Lisa needs braces"
21:14:29 [sbp]
"Dental plan" "Lisa needs braces"
21:14:32 [sbp]
"Dental plan" "Lisa needs braces"
21:14:36 [AaronSw]
um
21:14:39 [sbp]
I'll be saying that for a while
21:14:43 [AaronSw]
why?
21:14:57 [AaronSw]
.google "Dental plan" "Lisa needs braces"
21:14:58 [xena]
"Dental plan" "Lisa needs braces": http://pub54.ezboard.com/f8bitforumfrm6.showMessage?topicID=34.topic
21:15:13 [sbp]
Homer's standing in a line, and he starts thinking about two things that Lenny and Marge have said
21:15:34 [sbp]
Lisa needs braces, but they're just about to give up their dental plan
21:15:40 [sbp]
so Homer will have to come up with the money for the braces
21:15:50 [sbp]
however, Homer being Homer, it takes him a while to realise this
21:16:11 [sbp]
so he's just standing in line for some beer, and his brain's going
21:16:17 [sbp]
"Dental plan" "Lisa needs braces", "Dental plan" "Lisa needs braces", "Dental plan" "Lisa needs braces"...
21:16:30 [sbp]
then someone drops a pencil into his butt-crack
21:16:48 [sbp]
Homer: now I've lost my train of thought!
21:16:59 [sbp]
but then he goes back to "Dental plan" "Lisa needs braces", "Dental plan" "Lisa needs braces"...
21:17:11 [sbp]
it's mesmerizingly funny
21:18:50 [sbp]
it's up there with:-
21:19:05 [sbp]
Homer: [singing] Hey there blimpy boy, flying through the sky so fancy free
21:21:31 [AaronSw]
people are wondering why emacs comes with man pages for "sex" and "condom"
21:22:24 [sbp]
* sbp finds http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/92q4/condomman.html and http://www.glue.umd.edu/~kpenn/humor/comp/condom.html
21:23:13 [sbp]
heh:-
21:23:14 [sbp]
[[[
21:23:14 [sbp]
BUGS
21:23:15 [sbp]
_condom_ is NOT 100% effective at preventing a child process
21:23:15 [sbp]
from being forked or at deterring the invasion of a virus
21:23:15 [sbp]
]]]
21:23:20 [sbp]
from http://www.glue.umd.edu/~kpenn/humor/comp/condom.html
21:27:43 [sbp]
interesting: http://web.archive.org/*
21:27:47 [sbp]
erm...
21:27:52 [sbp]
http://www.uroulette.com/index.html
21:27:59 [Morbus]
troma has a movie out called Killer Condom
21:28:07 [sbp]
heh, the things that I have on my clipboard...
21:28:13 [sbp]
what's it about?
21:28:47 [Morbus]
Morbus has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:28:49 [MorbusIff]
MorbusIff (~morbus@morbus.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack
21:29:19 [sbp]
<Morbus> troma has a movie out called Killer Condom
21:29:22 [sbp]
<sbp> what's it about?
21:30:02 [MorbusIff]
MorbusIff is now known as Morbus
21:30:11 [Morbus]
its about a condom that has teeth.
21:30:24 [sbp]
ah. That's a bit of a design fault
21:30:24 [AaronSw]
awesom!
21:30:27 [AaronSw]
emacs has pong!
21:31:03 [Morbus]
sbp: http://www.troma.com/clips/killer_condom.html
21:32:08 [sbp]
bizarre
21:38:11 [Morbus]
argh.
21:38:15 [Morbus]
i am having a horrible day!
21:40:28 [Morbus]
no! suse's logrotate script sucks ass!
21:41:03 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw reads the Debian Weekly News
21:42:46 [AaronSw]
Wow, ssh support smartcard readers.
21:44:22 [sbp]
public plea: if anyone knows how to get hold of Alan Lomax's recording of Georgia Turner singing House Of The Risin' Sun, please let me - http://purl.org/net/sbp/ - know
21:44:44 [sbp]
* sbp turns #swhack into a want ads forum
21:44:54 [AaronSw]
convert it to rdf and use the plex ;)
21:45:11 [AaronSw]
how do I generate SSH host keys?
21:45:13 [sbp]
well, I can't find it on Google etc.
21:45:23 [sbp]
.google generate SSH host keys
21:45:24 [xena]
generate SSH host keys: http://www.employees.org/~satch/ssh/faq/manpages/ssh-keygen1_man.html
21:45:35 [sbp]
ta da
21:45:54 [AaronSw]
it doesn't say how, tho!
21:46:20 [AaronSw]
aha http://www.lbl.gov/ITSD/CIS/faqs/UNIX_Faq/18.html
21:48:17 [Morbus]
AaronSw, i got some links for you if you need them, on ssh.
21:48:32 [AaronSw]
I'm trying to resolve this error:
21:48:33 [AaronSw]
Disabling protocol version 1. Could not load host key
21:48:40 [AaronSw]
but I do appear to have a host key
21:49:05 [Morbus]
and that host key is pointed to in your sshd config file?
21:49:22 [Morbus]
if so, it may be that the host key was built with des, and that was like an ssh2 thingy, i think.
21:49:32 [Morbus]
anyways: i found this crap insanely helpful: http://www.ucolick.org/~sla/ssh/
21:49:51 [AaronSw]
ah, it isn't in the config file
21:50:05 [AaronSw]
thanks for the link!
21:50:18 [Morbus]
np.
21:51:29 [sbp]
interesting: http://houseoftherisingsunbnb.com/song.htm
21:52:03 [Morbus]
sbp: did you ever peruse my bookmark file at all?
21:52:25 [sbp]
of course
21:52:34 [Morbus]
what'd you think?
21:52:49 [sbp]
once I started browsing, I found all sorts of odd crap
21:53:03 [Morbus]
:)
21:53:51 [sbp]
Gotta run
21:56:31 [Morbus]
Morbus has quit ("http://www.disobey.com/")
21:59:54 [Morbus]
Morbus (~morbus@morbus.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack
22:01:19 [Morbus]
AaronSw: http://www.zope.org/Members/paessler/ie-booster
22:01:53 [AaronSw]
windows only, eh?
22:02:07 [Morbus]
i think so, yea.
22:02:53 [AaronSw]
hmm, ssh is going really wonky on me.
22:03:11 [AaronSw]
if I simply telnet to it from localhost i get the version num immediately.
22:03:14 [Morbus]
there are just some parts of ssh that i'm horrific at.
22:03:27 [AaronSw]
from a machine in california, i get the version num 10 seconds after i connect
22:03:31 [AaronSw]
and from my house i simply timeout
22:03:44 [Morbus]
is your house firewalled?
22:03:54 [AaronSw]
i'm behind a nat box
22:04:10 [AaronSw]
but I can ssh to other machines just fine.
22:04:29 [Morbus]
i dunno. i'm horrible at this.
22:05:19 [AaronSw]
where does ssh log to?
22:05:24 [AaronSw]
sshd, that is
22:05:51 [AaronSw]
hmm, just syslog it seems
22:06:38 [Morbus]
right.
22:06:48 [Morbus]
you can start the daemon with progressive -v's to get debugging for one session only.
22:08:56 [AaronSw]
aha! Jan 30 16:10:15 vorpal sshd[22241]: warning: /etc/hosts.deny, line 15: can't verify hostname: gethostbyname(12-249-96-16.client.attbi.com) failed
22:09:24 [AaronSw]
stupid ATT
22:09:28 [Morbus]
heh heh
22:09:34 [AaronSw]
.dns 12-249-96-16.client.attbi.com
22:09:34 [xena]
12-249-96-16.client.attbi.com - error: host not found
22:09:54 [jeremiah]
hello
22:10:05 [AaronSw]
hey there
22:10:22 [jeremiah]
been playing my friend's bass
22:10:26 [jeremiah]
our show is gonna rock so much
22:10:46 [AaronSw]
awesome!
22:10:57 [AaronSw]
you should put mp3s on your weblog :)
22:11:09 [jeremiah]
we don't have any yet
22:11:10 [jeremiah]
but I will
22:11:26 [jeremiah]
it's not really my type of music
22:11:29 [jeremiah]
that we play, heh
22:11:43 [jeremiah]
lead guitar is much inspired from black sabbath
22:13:15 [AaronSw]
hmm
22:13:49 [jeremiah]
do you want me to subclass that code i gave you yesterday?
22:14:06 [AaronSw]
no, i did it. i need to upload it to cvs.
22:14:09 [jeremiah]
ok
22:14:32 [Morbus]
AaronSw: did you hear att was trying to force turnoff nat?
22:14:40 [AaronSw]
wha?!
22:14:48 [Morbus]
http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0201/30.att.php
22:15:05 [Morbus]
i heard about it yesterday, and then when you told me you had nat, i hunted around...
22:15:15 [Morbus]
also: http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0201/29.broadband.php
22:16:12 [AaronSw]
oh, they just won't support it. they've always been that way
22:20:11 [Morbus]
sbp, you around?
22:20:20 [Morbus]
memepool just liked to purl.
22:20:26 [Morbus]
er, they linked on monday, rather.
22:20:28 [AaronSw]
ooh emacs21 is cool
22:20:47 [jeremiah]
hmm
22:20:50 [jeremiah]
I use jedit
22:20:51 [jeremiah]
and vim
22:20:58 [AaronSw]
pff
22:21:29 [AaronSw]
their example url is stupid
22:21:30 [Morbus]
AaronSw, you got linked on webseitz.
22:21:37 [AaronSw]
ooh!
22:23:01 [AaronSw]
oh, you mean threadsML?
22:23:16 [Morbus]
no, further down.
22:23:19 [Morbus]
schoolyard subversion.
22:25:15 [AaronSw]
ah
22:25:58 [Morbus]
what is up with threadsML?
22:26:07 [AaronSw]
lack of movement
22:26:36 [AaronSw]
argh, i dunno who to hate more: ssh or att
22:26:56 [Morbus]
att, they're clueless. ssh just sucks for you cos we're dumb
22:27:11 [AaronSw]
yeah, but there should be an unsuck button
22:29:52 [AaronSw]
why does emacs depend on xlibs?
22:29:59 [Morbus]
yahoo porn! http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0201/29.broadband.php
22:30:06 [Morbus]
http://it.news.yahoo.com/020107/107/1ogza.html
22:30:25 [sbp]
<Morbus> sbp, you around?
22:30:27 [sbp]
Uh huh
22:31:22 [deltab]
AaronSw: because it uses X, presumably
22:31:44 [AaronSw]
it'd be sort of nice to get a non-x version. hmmph
22:32:22 [AaronSw]
x should be optional or recommended or something
22:32:27 [AaronSw]
emacs works just fine in the command line
22:32:45 [sbp]
* sbp browses through Memepool, and finds the reference
22:39:10 [AaronSw]
wow. readproctitle is, ehm, interesting.
22:39:36 [Morbus]
hmm?
22:39:45 [AaronSw]
http://cr.yp.to/daemontools/readproctitle.html
22:41:30 [sbp]
heh:-
22:41:31 [sbp]
[[[
22:41:39 [sbp]
ACKS: Sergey made up this example.
22:41:40 [sbp]
[...]
22:41:44 [sbp]
or... hmm... that's not quite the same...
22:41:45 [sbp]
maybe Brian made up this example. Anyway...
22:41:45 [sbp]
I got the gist of the test case from
22:41:45 [sbp]
somebody else.
22:41:46 [sbp]
]]]
22:41:53 [sbp]
- DanC, www-rdf-logic
22:42:18 [AaronSw]
heh
22:42:38 [sbp]
mid:1012410239.17946.42.camel@dirk
22:44:21 [sbp]
DanC must use a really small text-formatting-width
22:44:45 [sbp]
Hmm... actually, it's quite inconsistently formatted: perhaps he does it by hand
22:45:36 [Morbus]
Morbus has quit ("http://www.disobey.com/")
22:45:56 [AaronSw]
he's probably thinking: well, 80 characters can't be that long.
22:48:41 [sbp]
heh, heh
22:49:00 [sbp]
at least he doesn't count when he's typing
22:54:38 [AaronSw]
Knuth: "I have been a happy man ever since January 1, 1990, when I no longer had an email address. I'd used email since about 1975, and it seems to me that 15 years of email is plenty for one lifetime."
22:54:49 [sbp]
heh
22:54:57 [sbp]
Donald Knuth, I presume?
22:55:03 [AaronSw]
Yeah.
22:55:14 [AaronSw]
"Email is a wonderful thing for people whose role in life is to be on top of things. But not for me; my role is to be on the bottom of things. What I do takes long hours of studying and uninterruptible concentration. I try to learn certain areas of computer science exhaustively; then I try to digest that knowledge into a form that is accessible to people who don't have time for such study."
22:55:35 [sbp]
* sbp finds http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/email.html
22:59:14 [jeremiah]
that reminds me
22:59:18 [jeremiah]
I need to read TAOCP
22:59:30 [jeremiah]
I have the first two volumes sitting here
23:05:32 [AaronSw]
Hmm, BoingBoing is buying google ads
23:11:28 [BenSw|asleep]
BenSw|asleep is now known as BenSw
23:11:46 [sbp]
wb, Ben
23:13:05 [Morbus]
Morbus (~Morbus@s90.terminal3.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack
23:13:11 [sbp]
wb, Morbus
23:13:37 [Morbus]
thankk.
23:14:02 [sbp]
np
23:17:07 [sbp]
heh, heh: "which makes it almost impossible for the strap to fall off" - http://radio.weblogs.com/0001189/2002/01/30.html#a277
23:17:07 [sbp]
ain't it the truth
23:17:13 [Morbus]
http://archive.develooper.com/beginners@perl.org/msg18893.html
23:17:14 [Morbus]
bah
23:17:18 [sbp]
I solved that problem by playing sitting down
23:25:57 [sbp]
heh: http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_508707.html?menu=news.quirkies