IRC log of swhack on 2002-01-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:15:04 [tansaku]
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00:34:25 [AaronSw]
@ http://www.boardsmag.com/screeningroom/musicvideos/220/
00:34:34 [chumpster]
A: http://www.boardsmag.com/screeningroom/musicvideos/220/ from AaronSw
00:34:46 [AaronSw]
A:|Music Video: White Stripes - Fell In Love With A Girl
00:34:47 [chumpster]
titled item A
00:34:58 [AaronSw]
A::It's cool because it's entirely made of Lego.
00:34:58 [chumpster]
commented item A
01:06:03 [AaronSw]
Heh, jer fell asleep reading chord docs
01:06:17 [sbp]
heh, heh
01:09:19 [AaronSw]
insane! http://www.plastic.com/article.pl?sid=02/01/28/1629243&from=rdf
01:11:20 [sbp]
fuck, that really is bizarre
01:13:32 [AaronSw]
"Don't laugh when you leave this courtroom, thinking you have beat the system because you have looked these things up yourself. We are going to get you down the road."
01:19:56 [sbp]
original: http://proliberty.com/observer/20020101.htm
02:25:00 [sbp]
Gotta run
03:01:34 [AaronSw]
whoa, well that was fun
03:01:45 [AaronSw]
GLTron took over my screen for a while
03:03:31 [sbp]
GLTron?
03:07:39 [tansaku]
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03:11:23 [AaronSw]
yeah, that game ken pointed us to
03:15:43 [sbp]
ah
03:28:14 [AaronSw]
heh.. it's a cool game
03:35:55 [sbp]
Wow, my little EARL "check for fixes" filter worked first time
03:37:06 [AaronSw]
@ http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ilist
03:37:08 [chumpster]
B: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ilist from AaronSw
03:37:17 [AaronSw]
check for fixes?
03:37:55 [AaronSw]
B:|TAG issues list
03:37:57 [chumpster]
titled item B
03:40:52 [sbp]
yeah. So, if a tool fails a test on day x, and then passes the same test on day x+1, it's been fixed
03:43:32 [wmf]
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03:43:41 [wmf]
hey Mr. Revisionist History :-)
03:46:19 [AaronSw]
heh
03:46:28 [AaronSw]
it was tempting, but i only appended
03:47:34 [AaronSw]
but i keep getting emails from rdf folks
03:47:56 [wmf]
about that? odd
03:48:09 [AaronSw]
yeah, with bad jokes about my logical abilities
03:48:33 [wmf]
it must be linked from some prominent place
03:49:14 [AaronSw]
.google swartz logic
03:49:15 [xena]
swartz logic: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-logic/2001Aug/0031.html
03:50:59 [sbp]
* sbp listens again to Whispering Grass, Sandy Denny
03:52:39 [AaronSw]
hmm, i wonder if i can get a unix account out of the w3c. that'd be cool
03:53:13 [wmf]
Sw3c
03:54:26 [AaronSw]
wmf, quick get all your Web Architecture issues resolved. it's Ask The TAG! http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ilist
03:55:17 [wmf]
woohoo!
03:56:16 [sbp]
Dear TAG, My friend Aaron says that fragURIs are nutty. What's wrong with him? Sincerely, sbp
03:56:43 [sbp]
* sbp listens to Whispering Grass again
03:57:03 [AaronSw]
To Troubled-in-HTTP-Space: it is not your friend but you who are nutty. Don't you realize that fragURIs are of the devil? Sincerely, The TAG.
03:57:36 [sbp]
That's just how they'd put it, too
03:57:59 [AaronSw]
(it was drafted by you-know-who)
04:05:35 [sbp]
* sbp manages to work out the chords for Whispering Grass rather quickly
04:14:46 [AaronSw]
@ http://norvig.com/python-iaq.html
04:14:51 [chumpster]
C: Python IAQ: Infrequently Answered Questions from AaronSw
04:17:23 [sbp]
I did wonder about x++
04:18:01 [AaronSw]
heh, the bit about "abstract" is funny
04:20:10 [sbp]
yeah. Java sucks
04:33:37 [BenSw]
Ach, I can't get Apache\PHP\MySQL to work
04:34:02 [BenSw]
2I might aswell give up
04:34:22 [wmf]
whoa, you're speaking in color
04:34:47 [BenSw]
lol, its a feature of x-chat, btw did you get Toast to worK?
04:35:03 [wmf]
yes, it's much better than using the finder
04:35:08 [BenSw]
I think you type 4 ot something
04:35:19 [BenSw]
I think you type % C 4 or something
04:35:34 [BenSw]
contracted of course, for red atleast
04:38:17 [BenSw]
I2-14n2-15v2-10i2-11s2-2i4o5n
04:39:41 [BenSw]
I2-14n2-15v2-10i2-11s2-2i2-4o2-5n
04:40:31 [sbp]
heh: "I don't know why Joe Clark has such a bone to pick with me" - http://benturner.com/soapbox/2000/camposts.txt
04:40:41 [sbp]
he has a bone to pick with practically everyone and anyone
04:44:52 [AaronSw]
he's Joe Clark
04:46:03 [BenSw]
4
04:46:16 [BenSw]
%0 l
04:51:44 [AaronSw]
Wes, you already have a standard talk?
04:51:51 [wmf]
sure
04:52:43 [AaronSw]
what about?
04:52:52 [wmf]
P2P infrastructure
04:55:08 [wmf]
another day, another power mac speed bump, another replay of the ppc/intel benchmark flame wars...
04:55:41 [AaronSw]
heh
04:57:46 [wmf]
I predict the TiBook will go to 800 at the next speed bump
04:58:18 [AaronSw]
that's all? we want a Ghz!
04:58:29 [wmf]
@ http://www.siliconstrategies.com/story/OEG20020128S0037
04:58:36 [chumpster]
D: SiliconStrategies.com - Motorola pushes PowerPC to 1-GHz with SOI technology from wmf
04:59:15 [AaronSw]
So is Austin the real Silicon Something-or-other?
04:59:33 [wmf]
D:\ the TiBook currently has the 7440; it will probably get the 7445 at 800MHz
04:59:38 [wmf]
silicon hills
04:59:54 [AaronSw]
it's D::, not D:\ here
05:00:11 [wmf]
D::the TiBook currently has the 7440; it will probably get the 7445 at 800MHz
05:00:12 [chumpster]
commented item D
05:00:17 [AaronSw]
perhaps we should get the p2pwg to standardize these things or something
05:00:25 [wmf]
you and your nonstandard chump syntax
05:05:42 [wmf]
looks like a new cinema display is coming
05:11:04 [BenSw]
BenSw is now known as BenSw|bed
05:13:59 [BenSw|bed]
G'night all
05:14:15 [sbp]
'night Ben
05:14:36 [AaronSw]
I think I'm gonna go to sleep. maybe i'll even get something done tomorrow.
05:15:39 [AaronSw]
nite
05:18:23 [sbp]
c'ya
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17:16:04 [kham]
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17:16:17 [kham]
hello all
17:16:27 [kham]
hello Aaron
17:17:55 [AaronSw]
hi
17:20:29 [kham]
I read your no-school email
17:20:45 [kham]
very good and interesting
17:20:50 [AaronSw]
thanks
17:21:36 [kham]
I think you are on right trach towards success
17:21:39 [kham]
track
17:23:32 [kham]
getting a group of talented programmers together is a great idea.
17:24:08 [AaronSw]
yeah, it's very difficult, tho
17:24:29 [kham]
true, the logistics is burdensome
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17:44:31 [AaronSw]
Hmm, The Register says there'll be a CodeCon webcast.
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19:21:10 [Scienide]
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19:30:06 [Scienide]
*snore*
19:30:11 [Scienide]
anyone alive?
19:45:09 [Scienide]
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20:40:10 [jeremiah]
* jeremiah is alive
20:40:16 [jeremiah]
* jeremiah is away: I'm busy
20:40:19 [jeremiah]
* jeremiah is back (gone 00:00:02)
20:40:33 [AaronSw]
heh
20:41:06 [jeremiah]
how much longer is this flood gonna take?
20:41:22 [jeremiah]
you just do it so we'll have a public record, right?
20:41:28 [AaronSw]
yeah
20:41:32 [AaronSw]
should be done in a sec
20:41:39 [jeremiah]
ok
21:16:37 [AaronSw]
AaronSw has changed the topic to: With 13407807929942597099574024998205846127479365820592393377723561443721764030073546976801874298166903427690031858186486050853753882811946569946433649006084096 channels, there's bound to be something you're interested in.
21:16:50 [sbp]
Argh!
21:16:52 [AaronSw]
AaronSw has changed the topic to: The Plex: With 13407807929942597099574024998205846127479365820592393377723561443721764030073546976801874298166903427690031858186486050853753882811946569946433649006084096 channels, there's bound to be something you're interested in.
21:17:03 [AaronSw]
hey there sbp
21:17:10 [sbp]
Hi
21:18:50 [AaronSw]
why "Argh!"?
21:19:29 [sbp]
big topic
21:19:37 [AaronSw]
heh, yeah.
21:19:49 [AaronSw]
does it make your client go wonky?
21:20:03 [sbp]
nope
21:20:25 [sbp]
I was just looking at the title bar at the time, and all of a sudden it was filled with numbers
21:20:34 [AaronSw]
Heh, heh.
21:20:58 [AaronSw]
I was thinking it'd be cool to make a map of the Plex at some point, but you'd have to lose a lot of detail with that many nodes.
21:24:10 [sbp]
yeah. Like my logicerror SVG map?
21:24:29 [AaronSw]
yeah, except you'd need [big number in topic] spots.
21:27:11 [sbp]
heh. Yes...
21:27:28 [sbp]
that'd be one big SVG
21:27:40 [AaronSw]
oh, yeah
21:47:16 [sbp]
heh: http://www.w3.org/2001/08/AnnoteaOxygenDemo
21:47:58 [sbp]
"EARL or a similar format"
21:48:00 [AaronSw]
what's so funny?
21:48:13 [sbp]
and it's nice that they don't actually use EARL at all. Not even a little bit
21:48:20 [AaronSw]
"accessibility defects" is funny.
21:48:38 [sbp]
yeah
21:48:40 [AaronSw]
"We would like this tool to produce RDF metadata, such as EARL, but the tool reports the findings in a proprietory XML format."
21:48:48 [AaronSw]
Blast those "proprietory" tools!
21:48:59 [AaronSw]
You stupid Brits bring your politics into everything...
21:49:13 [sbp]
lol!
21:49:26 [sbp]
Hmm... written by Ralph
21:49:43 [sbp]
well, last revision was by Ralph. Possibly authored by Marja
21:49:58 [AaronSw]
Did you see zakim's new super features?
21:50:04 [sbp]
nope
21:50:14 [AaronSw]
he does queue-tracking and agenda-tracking now
21:50:39 [AaronSw]
so he'll listen to:
21:50:39 [sbp]
Pretty cool. All RDF backed, I presume?
21:50:43 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw raises hand
21:50:46 [AaronSw]
and:
21:50:48 [AaronSw]
chair acks AaronSw
21:50:51 [AaronSw]
and umute me
21:50:54 [AaronSw]
err unmute me
21:51:14 [AaronSw]
RDF: something like that.
21:51:30 [AaronSw]
and you can ask him who's up next, etc.
21:51:33 [sbp]
that's a nice feature. Does it handle it so that only one person at a time can be unmuted (except the chair)?
21:51:47 [sbp]
or have some type of limit?
21:51:50 [AaronSw]
i think you can have it do that.
21:51:54 [AaronSw]
you just say:
21:51:56 [AaronSw]
zakim, mute sbp
21:52:08 [AaronSw]
it's great fun to do that while they're talking ;-)
21:52:15 [sbp]
heh, heh, I'll bet
21:52:36 [AaronSw]
Jon: [rambles on]
21:52:37 [AaronSw]
<foo> Zakim, mute Jon
21:52:37 [AaronSw]
Chair: moving right along...
21:52:47 [AaronSw]
Jon is a made up name, BTW.
21:53:53 [sbp]
sure :-)
21:55:21 [sbp]
Gotta run
21:58:07 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw plays with zakim-bot
21:58:12 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw raises hand
21:58:13 [AaronSw]
* Zakim sees AaronSw on the speaker queue
21:58:13 [AaronSw]
<AaronSw> chair acks aaronsw
21:58:13 [AaronSw]
* Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
22:09:28 [AaronSw]
wow! zakim even supports "ping us in 10 minutes"
22:33:32 [AaronSw]
I like this line:
22:33:36 [AaronSw]
# Very important to leave this line in for the sake of future historians.
22:33:36 [AaronSw]
self.if_doQ_thread_i_am_i_am_then_start_new_doQ_thread_with_spam = None
22:33:42 [AaronSw]
- pyutil.DoQ
23:01:33 [kmacleod]
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23:02:53 [kmacleod]
does Julian hang around here often?
23:03:02 [jeremiah]
xena: seen Julian
23:03:15 [jeremiah]
hmm
23:03:29 [AaronSw]
who's julian?
23:03:32 [AaronSw]
jbond?
23:03:37 [AaronSw]
.seen jbod
23:03:37 [xena]
AaronSw: no match found: jbod
23:03:38 [AaronSw]
.seen jbond
23:03:38 [xena]
jbond seen in #syndic8 saying: [ I need to krash. See ya ] ~ 76 day(s) 23 hr(s) 24 min(s) 51 sec(s) ago
23:04:32 [kmacleod]
hehe, guess not
23:05:01 [AaronSw]
heh, heh
23:05:04 [kmacleod]
I had a disagreement with his post re node databases and scripting languages
23:05:20 [kmacleod]
on voidstar.com
23:06:29 [DoidT]
http://www.voidstar.com/node.php?id=715
23:07:00 [AaronSw]
ken, well i think he reads our weblog. you can counterblog it here.
23:07:10 [kmacleod]
Zope, and yes even Frontier, I think show that closely tying a DB and language is a much richer thing than a relational database
23:07:56 [kmacleod]
what's the blog syntax ehre?
23:08:20 [AaronSw]
syntax is: @ URI
23:08:25 [AaronSw]
B::text
23:08:27 [chumpster]
commented item B
23:08:31 [AaronSw]
urgh
23:08:40 [sbp]
heh, heh
23:08:41 [sbp]
B::
23:08:41 [chumpster]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ilist
23:08:42 [chumpster]
TAG issues list
23:08:43 [chumpster]
(AaronSw) text
23:08:50 [sbp]
nice
23:09:07 [AaronSw]
B::of issues are availavle here.
23:09:08 [chumpster]
commented item B
23:09:34 [sbp]
that would have been a nice fix, had you have spelled "available" correctly
23:09:41 [AaronSw]
urgh
23:10:15 [kmacleod]
@ http://www.voidstar.com/node.php?id=715
23:10:20 [chumpster]
E: Voidstar from kmacleod
23:10:52 [kmacleod]
title?
23:10:59 [AaronSw]
E:|title
23:11:02 [sbp]
"Voidstar"
23:11:12 [sbp]
it already has a title, but you can override it
23:11:59 [kmacleod]
E:|VoidStar: Relational db as good as object DB? not currently
23:12:00 [chumpster]
titled item E
23:14:28 [kmacleod]
E::Yes, hundreds of thousands of web sites all use relational databases, but to do so they all (almost to the last) do so by using SQL directly or wrapping hand written or schema generated code around it -- "ick!", I say!
23:14:29 [chumpster]
commented item E
23:15:06 [sbp]
ooh, I could comprise rdfs:comment property values from a concatenation of n:defintion and n:note
23:16:13 [kmacleod]
E::Zope and Frontier take a different approach by natively binding the inherent structure of the database into the language.
23:16:16 [chumpster]
commented item E
23:16:48 [AaronSw]
I'm not sure I should say this, but I think Dave's statement that "Relational databases are good for factories and stores. Object databases map the model of the Web. Just change the slashes to dots and off you go." is exactly wrong.
23:19:24 [AaronSw]
The is based upon a relational (links) not a hierarchical model.
23:19:32 [AaronSw]
Altho, it's more hierarchical (slashes) than I would like.
23:20:40 [kmacleod]
I hear .net is more node/property based. that's good.
23:20:51 [kmacleod]
and C#/CLR tightly integrated into it.
23:21:04 [AaronSw]
node/property is pretty much what Frontier does, right?
23:21:20 [kmacleod]
that's exactly along the same lines of what I'm talking about, in contrast to Julian's take on RDBs
23:22:12 [AaronSw]
hm
23:22:24 [AaronSw]
I do like the convenience of Zope's ODB.
23:23:18 [AaronSw]
but I think I like RDF DBs even better. :)
23:23:45 [BenSw|bed]
BenSw|bed is now known as BenSw
23:24:22 [kmacleod]
Frontier has nested dictionaries (which it calls "tables"), they're not quite nodes
23:25:20 [kmacleod]
too much chaos in RDF DBs, too little apparent structure
23:26:02 [kmacleod]
Zope's "convenience" is *exactly* the distinction to be made
23:26:50 [kmacleod]
maybe "emergent" is a better term than "apparent"
23:28:00 [kmacleod]
E::It's said that .net's data store and C#/CLR are bound in a very similar way.
23:28:02 [chumpster]
commented item E
23:28:58 [AaronSw]
structure is overrated
23:29:17 [kmacleod]
heh
23:34:56 [kmacleod]
E::I disagree with Dave W. that hierarchy has anything in particular to do with it, except as a convenient default localized storage pattern.
23:34:57 [chumpster]
commented item E
23:35:01 [kmacleod]
E::A graph-structured database is far more analogous to the web, and more clearly represents the distributed nature of the web.
23:35:03 [chumpster]
commented item E
23:37:48 [kmacleod]
E::Aaron points at RDF here, and he may be right, but at this point there is no tight binding to a language and (I believe) current RDF research systems have too much chaos to their data presentation.
23:37:49 [chumpster]
commented item E
23:38:33 [AaronSw]
E::Well, I'm working on the binding bit, and data presentation is simply a matter of, well, presentation.
23:38:37 [chumpster]
commented item E
23:39:46 [kmacleod]
E::As I well know, from work on Orcard ;-)
23:39:48 [chumpster]
commented item E
23:39:49 [kmacleod]
argh!!!
23:39:55 [AaronSw]
Heh.
23:40:01 [kmacleod]
s/Orcard/Orchard/
23:40:24 [kmacleod]
E::er, "Orchard"
23:40:26 [chumpster]
commented item E
23:40:27 [AaronSw]
E::He means [Orchard|http://orchard.sourceforge.net/].
23:40:28 [chumpster]
commented item E
23:40:57 [AaronSw]
SF: "This project has not yet submitted a description."
23:41:19 [kmacleod]
eh, it's dead anyway
23:41:58 [AaronSw]
I still recommend it to folks.
23:42:34 [kmacleod]
it needs a new hero
23:45:40 [AaronSw]
it parses RSS decently, which is good enough for me :)
23:46:01 [kmacleod]
heh
23:46:51 [kmacleod]
I think if Orchard/C could compile and load modules dynamically, it'd be a schweet runtime
23:47:17 [kmacleod]
and, of course, perfectly fitted as a binding to a node-view of RDF ;)
23:48:30 [AaronSw]
Heh, heh.
23:49:10 [AaronSw]
mnot has been doing some cool stuff with Python-RDF bindings that I want to work on.
23:49:16 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw gets $26.47 from Amazon on $480.20 of sales. Hmm.
23:49:32 [AaronSw]
Wow, one person actually bought a book I linked to.
23:50:09 [kmacleod]
has he bound them as py attributes?
23:50:16 [AaronSw]
yeah.
23:50:31 [kmacleod]
how did he handle namespaces?
23:50:57 [AaronSw]
you define the namespace and then do: nsname_localname
23:51:11 [kmacleod]
I'd love to submit (er, have someone submit and follow thru) on a NS RFC for Py and Perl
23:51:14 [kmacleod]
and Ruby
23:51:30 [AaronSw]
to build it into the language, you mean?
23:52:09 [kmacleod]
how'd he handle the global naming problems with nsname_localname, do you know?
23:52:19 [kmacleod]
yes, build it into the language
23:52:25 [AaronSw]
global naming problems?
23:52:46 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw is hunting for the code.
23:53:13 [kmacleod]
when you say, 'nsname_localname', do you really mean 'prefix_localname', as in dc_subject?
23:53:21 [AaronSw]
yeah
23:53:50 [AaronSw]
--
23:53:50 [AaronSw]
world = World('here')
23:53:50 [AaronSw]
world.registerNS('person', "http://www.example.org/people#")
23:53:51 [AaronSw]
world.registerNS('contact', "http://www.example.com/contact#")
23:53:51 [AaronSw]
Thing = ThingFactory(world)
23:53:51 [AaronSw]
bob = Thing("person_bob")
23:53:53 [AaronSw]
bob.contact_phone = "555-1212"
23:53:55 [AaronSw]
--
23:54:31 [kmacleod]
if your module Foo declares 'dc' as Dublin Core, and my module Bar declares 'dc' as BarNS, how does the library know the difference?
23:54:49 [kmacleod]
I think you just answered my question
23:54:59 [kmacleod]
that's broke, it doesn't scale.
23:55:23 [AaronSw]
ah, interesting point.
23:55:24 [kmacleod]
two module authors can't independently work on the same World
23:55:52 [kmacleod]
Orchard's namespaces are lexically scoped
23:55:56 [AaronSw]
he says the reason he did that is python doesn't allow .s in **args.
23:56:04 [AaronSw]
lexically?
23:56:31 [kmacleod]
property names are represented internally fully qualified (I used 2-tuples)
23:56:52 [kmacleod]
yes, local to the syntactical scope within the file
23:57:56 [kmacleod]
in Orchard/C, it's done at compile time by rpe-parsing the source; in Orchard/Py|Perl it's done at runtime by using NS generators
23:59:19 [AaronSw]
so i guess one way to solve the problem is to create interfaces to a world, right?
23:59:45 [AaronSw]
and have the interfaces translate from scoped ns to fully-qualified
23:59:54 [kmacleod]
PERSON = namespace("http://www.example.org/people#")
23:59:54 [kmacleod]
CONTACT = namespace("http://www.example.com/contact#")
23:59:54 [kmacleod]
bob = Thing(PERSON.bob)
23:59:54 [kmacleod]
bob[CONTACT.phone] = "555-1212"