00:03:24 * sbp replies to Norm Walsh on RDF IG 00:03:26 Hi Tom 00:03:33 I hope it went through... 00:03:46 hi 00:05:04 yep: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-interest/2002Jan/0168 00:07:32 heeelo 00:10:03 heh, as if: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1783000/1783714.stm 00:10:05 Hi there, Aaron 00:10:27 ooh, it's Sunday already, so I'm breaking it 00:10:54 anyway, I think I'm exempt 00:12:44 I think I do much less than aaron 00:12:44 I just give the impression that I do a lot 00:12:47 I feel the same way. Heh. 00:14:08 Notice how they don't say why they think being in the "real world" is valuable (not that i'm saying it isn't). People just seem to assume it's obvious. 00:14:20 And I'm hearing more and more about how the online world is far more appealing. 00:14:58 it's especially useful if you have a disability which means it's difficult for you to get into the "outside world" :-) 00:16:29 tav gave me a little Plex history lesson, earlier 00:16:48 or if you're frightened of people. 00:16:53 (for example) 00:17:13 that would be a disability preventing you from getting into the outside world 00:17:28 like say you open two "browser windows" 00:17:28 and in one of them you search for files that are related to "top secret project" 00:17:28 As Gelernter says, in the future you won't put things in folders, the folders will reach out and grab them. 00:17:29 yes, that's my excuse :D 00:17:34 :-) 00:19:27 That was such an awesome day: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2001Sep/0067 00:24:32 ugh, unless I give :excludesId a cardinality restriction of 1 (i.e. make it a UniqueProperty), it's not going to work 00:26:16 I'm not going to say who I think invented the Plex, but I'd bet that if I'm in an interview or something it'll end up looking like I'm taking all the credit for it and people will get very upset with me and work will be delayed for weeks. 00:27:07 I'll just say deltab, and bugger it 00:27:09 :-) 00:27:15 Yeah, I saw. 00:27:39 I was thinking one day: deltab is so quiet that if he asked me to do some outrageous thing for him, I'd probably do it. 00:27:48 * sbp waves to any potential future Plex historians 00:27:49 Sorta dangerous. I hope he doesn't do that. ;-) 00:27:53 heh, heh 00:29:33 so, sbp, jeremiah, etc. feel free to ask questions about the Plex. 00:29:42 gimme a sec. 00:29:47 I was sorta disappointed to hear you thought I wasn't keeping y'all up to date. 00:30:19 sbp has changed the topic to: Plex: invented by deltab, powered by Aaron Swartz's bubble gum, and patent pending 00:30:26 lol 00:30:35 :-) 00:30:45 [Powered by Bubble-Gum] 00:31:27 well, perhaps you are keeping us up-to-date. I don't know what, if anything, you're keeping back, otherwise you wouldn't be keeping it back. But I presume that you must have had conversation with people that they want you to keep confidential 00:32:02 And I don't fault you for it, of course. What can ya do? And it's probably better to be having those discussions rather than documenting every little bit 00:32:15 Hmm, I don't think so... I just talked to my Mom about it, but that's all I can think of. 00:32:21 although I must admit that I feel like I havent got the foggiest idea what's going on w.r.t. the Plex 00:32:25 It's tav doing the secret meetings 00:32:27 heh, heh 00:32:52 what's up with tav's secrecy? I don't even know his name 00:33:07 is he a convict on the run or something? Wanted in 7 countries? 00:33:32 of course, he has a right to privacy. But it's just fairly unusual 00:33:37 Well, he's wanted from the British Library system. 00:33:45 isn't everyone? 00:33:46 Apparently he's racked up a large fine. 00:34:11 I dunno. Here I just change names or pretend to not have any money. 00:34:27 heh, heh 00:34:45 "but I checked it back in! honest!" 00:36:24 I suppose the main thing that I'm wondering is how the dang thing is going to work. I know that there's the content layer, and the metadata layer, and then you have the query applications... but past that, I dunno. I presume that's what all of the discussions are about at the moment 00:36:51 the thing is, the Plex is almost a bit too simple. There's not really much to talk about at the moment, is there? Just waiting for the code to form, and for us to run it 00:37:08 I think I see most of it at this point, and I think I can do a decent job of explaining it. But when I try to explain it I just suck. 00:37:49 I suppose we'll be talking a bit about the extensibility - you said that you only want people to install it once, and then have it self-update itself through itself. That's a bit spooky, but it makes sense. A bit like downloading browser extensions using the browser, except automatically 00:37:53 * tomc had to pay a £10 library fine the other day *cringe* 00:38:20 while it's on topic :) 00:38:37 Oh, and I don't think I get the iedentification thing. Will we be identifying files by their SHAs, or what? 00:38:43 *cringe* indeed :-) 00:39:22 yes! 00:39:40 I lost a book in November 00:40:27 OK, the Plex stores triples, right? 00:40:36 sorry, talk about plex :) 00:40:38 So one of the triples can be :content "value" . 00:41:38 so you can refer to things by or plexname 00:41:49 or plexname-for-friend:friend'sPlexname 00:42:32 except that's a generalization. :content triples don't necessarily have to be believed, and they'll have to account for conneg etc. The only thing that can be checked is SHAness 00:42:50 and I still don't really get plexnames 00:42:50 yes 00:42:59 obviously if you want a secure reference, you need to use SHAs 00:43:04 (or something similar0 00:43:12 the plexnames can only be applied locally, going by the SHAs 00:43:27 well, I guess they're quite useful, then. Just aliases for SHAs 00:43:28 Zooko and I were discussing identification with ESL-style things. 00:43:40 no, they can do much more than identify SHAs 00:44:00 they won't identify SHAs, they'll be aliases for them 00:44:08 Cool, they're playing a country version of "Strawberry Fields" on PHC. 00:44:13 heh, heh 00:44:56 they can cover changing things too -- SHAs won't let you change a doc 00:45:11 fair enough 00:47:32 so, will every Plex client have its own UUID? 00:48:03 why would that be? 00:48:37 so you can stamp things that you send into the plex, if you want. Plus, you'll have your own namespace. Otherwise, it's going to be difficult to "update" a resource 00:48:59 no, they'll just use dig sigs 00:50:15 wonderful 00:50:33 [mild sarcasm - crypto in Python isn't easy, as I found out] 00:50:51 heh 00:50:56 then again, neither is generating a UUID 00:51:09 the XML digital signatures code is in Python 00:51:18 is it? neat 01:09:43 cool, zooko says he's almost done 01:10:14 almost done for what? 01:10:50 I was going to use his transport library (EGTP) for pychord 01:23:58 lol: http://www.somethingawful.com/spam/icq/spacerobot/index.htm 01:26:21 heh! 01:26:24 I like "It was the worst Christmas ever." 01:26:53 I can't believe that wasn't fabricated in some way 01:27:11 """ 01:27:11 Corn_Boy - be very careful, he is scary, does [the robot] have an off button? 01:27:11 Lowtax - No, I hard encoded the transistor gigaflop switch to the analogue Proteus nord rack 2 Quasimidi ray diode. He should turn himself off. 01:27:11 That's odd, the lights turned off. 01:27:11 Corn_Boy - be very careful, he is scary, does he have an off button? 01:27:12 """ 01:27:19 What wasn't fabricated? 01:27:39 thc (~lambda@modem-1712.monkey.dialup.pol.co.uk) has joined #swhack 01:27:51 lol:- 01:27:52 [[[ 01:27:53 Lowtax - Venus power = radiation = the Devil! My robots will turn this and make our space program work this time! My pusher robot will shove the space shuttle, and my shover robot will push the astronauts out of harm's way. Do you understand? 01:27:53 Corn_Boy - not really, you must be alot smarter than me 01:27:53 ]]] 01:29:05 well, I'd have been like "yeah... right, bye then" 01:29:29 there are some strange people on IRC 01:29:42 err ICQ 01:30:33 both, I think 01:30:47 [cough] 01:30:56 heh, heh 01:31:07 we should do that to people who enter #swhack 01:31:21 HI FREND, HOW ARe U? R U BORKED TOdAY? 01:31:55 Then they'd be convinced this was a cracker channel. 01:32:08 although I do hope that telling them that the channel is logged will be a better deterrent 01:32:15 heh 01:32:51 within a week we'll be the top hit for "jeremiah small dick" 01:33:41 because of: 01:33:42 because this girl had sex with this guy, and told me that he had a small dick,a nd somehow it got back to him, but I didn't tell him she said it 01:34:05 lol! 01:34:09 did you see that guy who came in asking for cracking hints? it's wasn't too long ago - it's all in the logs 01:34:11 yeah, I remember that 01:34:15 it was bizzare - we were just chatting about the Plex, and then he comes out with that. I was rather amused 01:34:22 yeah, i saw that. 01:34:28 heh, heh 01:34:30 well I do work for the DOD 01:34:42 yep, thassit 01:35:08 another welcome addition to the channel 01:35:44 I do love cultural diversity :o) 01:35:47 yeah, i figure with him and tav here i'll get the cultural background equivalent of high school. 01:35:51 yeah, I like it when the hacker d00dz show up. As long as they don't stay too long, it's quite comical 01:35:57 heh, heh 01:36:02 poor you 01:41:56 lol! 01:41:57 [[[ 01:41:58 Lowtax - Oh, here it is. Okay, here are the instructions: you have to type that command I sent you before and send it. Then, within 5 seconds of it sending, you have to hit ALT-F4. That sends some SYSEX message to the computer here and it will reboot. 01:41:59 [...] 01:42:09 (StaceY went offline) 01:42:14 ]]] - http://www.somethingawful.com/spam/icq/netappliance/index-04.htm 01:42:37 that's an absolutely wonderful transcript 01:44:53 tomc has quit (Connection timed out) 01:45:54 thc is now known as tomc 01:47:42 hehe 01:49:05 lol! 01:52:44 cruelty to stupid people isn't really excusable though :o) 01:55:29 s/stupid/knowledge deprived/ 01:56:01 no... 01:56:08 they were spammers 01:56:16 exactly 01:57:13 she tried to spam him, and he wreaked his Vengeance 01:57:18 Oh. :o) fine fine I think. 01:57:51 * sbp is currently reading through http://www.somethingawful.com/spam/icq/anointed/ 01:57:59 that one's a little bit sad, actually 01:58:31 As am I, I'll read it. 02:03:07 wmf (wesf@cs242733-11.austin.rr.com) has joined #swhack 02:03:16 that guy is pretty good with his slang 02:03:18 Hi Wes 02:03:22 howdy 02:04:08 hey wes 02:09:52 what's up in the swUniverse? 02:09:54 Chris: "I should be worried about my health, but trivial things like that no longer concern me." 02:10:01 - http://radio.weblogs.com/0102312/2002/01/25.html#a5 02:10:10 you can feel the love 02:10:56 hmm... i can't think of much that is up 02:11:06 I got PyChord working... gonna integrate it with EGTP soon. 02:11:12 so I've heard 02:11:40 oh. from who? 02:11:50 zooko 02:12:04 I'm on the OmniUpgradeTreadmill 02:12:12 oh? 02:12:24 more sneakypeeking 02:12:25 ? 02:12:34 I was using omniweb 4.1sp24 and it kept bugging me to upgrade to sp28 02:12:48 so I did and then it immediately told me to upgrade to sp32 02:12:54 heh heh 02:13:01 Dave: "there will come a day when free hosting at UserLand is a thing of the past." 02:13:13 he's been saying that forever 02:13:20 yeah, i've noticed. 02:13:27 so I'm not sure what the point of the intermediate upgrade was 02:13:39 maybe they upgraded the upgrade notification? 02:13:42 and these new leakypeeks have no release notes 02:14:02 If they had releasenotes it wouldn't be very sneaky/leaky, now would it? 02:14:13 they did switch to some kind of mirror site (which is slower than the regular site) 02:15:01 I just hope userland doesn't try to switch everyone to Radio 02:15:51 heh, that'd be interesting. 02:16:15 If Dave wants to eliminate free hosting, why did he just start hosting 4 zillion more sites. 02:16:34 the radio sites are only free for a month 02:16:44 oh? what happens afterward? 02:16:56 good question 02:17:17 i hope he lets me redirect 02:17:30 but what are the chances of that? 02:17:35 get in your feature request now 02:17:41 i wonder if I can get Radio to upstream a .htaccess file somehow 02:18:34 there's a way to change extensions on files 02:18:55 it'd probably be easiest to just hack the code inside. 02:19:09 or use a python xmlStorageSystem client 02:19:15 so where is that Dave quote from? 02:19:22 scripting.com earlier today 02:19:31 I don't see it now 02:19:36 He must have deleted it. 02:19:41 It was in my Radio news. 02:19:57 now it's archived for eternity in #swhack! Mwahahaha! 02:20:23 sorry... got a bit carried away, there. Please, do continue 02:24:41 I wonder if Morbus supports this: http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2002/1/25/214359/663 02:29:08 argh, I hate it when Terminal quits. 02:30:00 Hmm, isntead of calling stuff Foo.app I think I'll call them iFoo. iTerminal, iPreview, iMail. 02:30:15 wmf is now known as iWMF 02:30:43 heh heh. 02:30:51 (note: I am not available for free download from Apple's Web site) 02:30:54 AaronSw is now known as iHackThePlanet 02:30:55 lol 02:31:00 heh 02:31:04 Available for an exta $20 charge 02:31:04 iWMF is now known as wmf 02:31:33 Would you like to continue: [No | Yes, after paying $20 | Maybe not] 02:31:37 iAaron: more funky looking than the iLamp, and three times brighter 02:31:47 iHackThePlanet is now known as AaronSw 02:32:01 Don't hack computers. 02:32:13 No haquer los computadoras 02:32:17 Ý™€ß¬¬¶€¥™¨¨¨šß 02:32:29 - sticker on the iHackThePlanet 02:32:51 LOL! 02:33:03 heh 02:33:06 "Hacking is a social problem" 02:33:12 and that ALCU story is quite funny, too 02:33:27 Steve: "We didn't feel hacking-protection was necessary in Mac OS X." 02:33:55 heh, he 02:34:13 and hey, append another "h" if you like 02:34:37 heh, i should send http://www.apple.com/ihacktheplanet/ as an HTP referer. 02:34:52 i don't want to miss out on the fun 02:34:59 * wmf grumbles 02:35:40 Heh, new iCon in 10.2: http://www.apple.com/errors/images/hotnews01162002.gif 02:38:32 I wonder what this guy was after: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=britany+hack+page&btnG=Google+Search 02:50:42 DoidM (~besirc@host217-35-155-157.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #swhack 02:50:59 whoa, it's doid! 02:51:05 What's the M for? 02:51:13 Um, I forgot 02:51:23 Could've been masterbating 02:51:45 err. Won't repeat 02:51:56 hm? 02:52:03 This channel is logged live to the Web, BTW. ;-) 02:52:07 I know 02:52:20 so sorry for the misspelling ;) 02:52:36 So how was your meeting with, um, TavA? 02:52:48 Very interesting 02:53:11 I'm not sure what was covered that isn't public knowlegdearound here 02:53:28 But he spoke a bot about the Omni framework 02:53:44 heh 02:54:01 As I understand it, an application layer over the mesh 02:54:05 not the OmniFramework. 02:54:11 Yes 02:54:11 totally different, wm 02:54:31 Hmm. OmniFramework is something else? 02:54:37 tav's been quiet on omni 02:54:44 all I ask is credit for the name 02:54:53 OmniFramework is something by the Omni Group, makers of fine software for OS X 02:54:58 wmf, oh the name was your fault? 02:55:08 tav never mentioned that 02:55:11 Oh, didn't know that (not having a Mac yet) 02:55:12 and maybe a guaranteed pension from the Tav World Order :-) 02:55:36 Would be nice 02:56:02 bbiab, time to make a Borders book. 02:56:14 err trip 02:56:21 there was a brainstorming session (on #infoanarchy IIRC) and I suggested "Omni" as the name 02:56:34 Ah. 02:56:35 your Borders must be open late 02:56:39 I'm worried about the perpetual confusion with the other omni 02:56:52 hm, 2 minutes... 02:57:04 ah, it's open until 11 on saturdays 02:57:22 i believe, as wmf(?) pointed out, no-one outside the mac community knows about omni 02:57:24 awesome 02:57:36 Heya, tav 02:57:38 so, eventually everyone will be using Macs, right? 02:57:42 ;-) 02:57:44 I need to move to north austin so I'll be close to broders 02:57:45 Hehe 02:57:54 5 down, 95 to go 02:57:54 I'm going to love it, I know 02:58:17 Aaron: do you use command line a lot on your Mac? 02:58:20 I bett we'll have 6 by the end of the year 02:58:24 DoidM, yeah, quite a bit 02:58:25 'lo doid 02:58:36 Morning 02:58:46 heh, morning indeed 02:58:50 .time 02:58:50 2002/01/27 03:00:28.9049 Universal 02:58:51 .time 02:58:51 2002/01/27 03:00:29.7933 Universal 02:59:04 Xena is so cool 02:59:11 ok, bbl. talk about omni while i'm gone ;) 02:59:24 DoidM: have that write up for me? ;p 02:59:38 tav: you didn't even notice me dissing you on #infoAnarchy a few minutes ago 02:59:55 I've transferred some notes to pc, shall I cut 'n' paste or come up with something more meaningful? 02:59:58 oh? 03:00:13 The Omni framework is a modular application layer over the mesh (or 03:00:14 routing) layer of the Plex. This application layer is a set of high level 03:00:14 objects which provide,interfaces to the data in the Plex (mesh?). 03:00:24 gah 03:00:32 not to a public channel pls 03:00:35 Sorry 03:00:43 irc.espnow.com / #espians 03:00:49 Eek 03:01:05 DoidM: you're being sucked into the esp... 03:01:27 once you get past the inner event horizon, you're done for 03:01:43 I've been getting that feeling recently 03:01:46 sucked into the singularity! beware! 03:02:34 /join #espians 03:20:10 tomc has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:25:51 sbp has quit (Excess Flood) 03:26:57 sbp (~sean@63.149.73.20) has joined #swhack 03:33:35 hazmat has left #swhack 03:49:45 back 03:49:56 wb 03:51:18 every time I upgrade omniweb, OS X thinks my default browser is IE 03:52:55 hmm 03:53:35 news.com is selling content 03:53:48 I guess having 6 ads per page wasn't enough 03:54:44 lol 03:54:52 I noticed the other day they own com.com 03:54:58 lame 03:56:10 so now you can surf news.com.com 03:58:11 I'm sure some folks will buy up "Britney Spears is Dead!" stories real fast. 04:11:47 hmm, not sure omni is such a good idea. 1) building application frameworks doesn't seem like ESP's core competency. 2) to do it decently you're going to need to rewrite the whole system of computing. 3) that's expensive, for limited gain. 04:13:00 ah, wisdom 04:15:43 Aaron: I agree to an extent. tav convinced me (and he is convincing) that that would be easier given the platform being adopted 04:15:56 what would be easier? 04:16:21 I can't for the life of me find a previous attempt I read about ages ago. Alphablox? 04:17:24 heh, the DJ on the radio is having the same problem I sometimes do. he's getting shocked every time he touches something metal 04:17:38 heh, that destroyed my touchpad for a while 04:17:45 had to start the humidifier running 04:18:30 I think my power jack on my pismo is going bad 04:18:48 I'm earthing everything! 04:19:14 What happened to me is I messed up the cord on my Yoyo 04:19:53 but i think the newer yoyos fixed that problem by reinforcing it 04:58:01 Aaron: Sorry, easier meaning easier than I thought it would be - I wasn't considering an alternative approach 05:01:43 hmm, anyone have a good explanation of FEC? 05:02:16 i read orasis' oreillynet interview 05:02:21 stop spying through xena you bitch 05:12:25 DoidM is now known as DoidT 05:18:28 * sbp waves 05:19:52 sbp: I read you swintro for about the third time 05:24:57 great. How did you find it? 05:25:01 is it starting to sink in a bit? :-) 05:25:52 slowly - anything that might be a potential solution to my reading problem is attractive ;) 05:27:01 reading problem? I dunno if it can solve reading problems, but it's good for insomnia 05:27:32 I guess I don't understand how RDF isn't hierarchical 05:29:18 well, class and property hierarchies are... but there are no real constraints anywhere - anything can link to anything else. I mean, there's no centralization - no one saying "you must use the term 'title' whenever you have a title for something" 05:29:32 and class hierarchies can be cyclic 05:30:10 imagine browsing through folder :a to folder :b to folder :c, and then finding folder :a there again 05:30:31 thanks 05:32:10 Hmm... really, the Web is based upon a hierarchial structure: people still think of /blargh/ components in URIs as being directories; but the difference is that you can link anything to anything else. RDF adds making the link typed, instead of just having the plain link 05:32:38 typed as what, just for example 05:33:46 I still think of components of URI's as directories 05:35:21 :Sean :likes :Swhack; :dislikes :School . # likes and dislikes are the types of the links. In hypertext, all you can do is put a bit of link text there... it's not particularly automated. So, RDF is geared up towards storing data. But there's a fuzzy line between data and documentation - so you get people screen scraping data out of documents, and so forth 05:36:06 so the "types" of the links are just the properties - the predicates in the triple. Always the thing in the middle (you've probably been through all that though, especially if you've read swintro 3 times!) 05:37:19 Aha. As a matter of historical interest, for how long have there been triples? 05:38:33 Um... in RDF, or just in general? They're only binary relationships - RDF is derived from a substantial amount of past work 05:39:15 I'm not too sure why DRF adopted that model, although I guess it's because anything can be expressed that way - although it is expensive for encoding >2-ary relationships 05:39:22 s/DRF/RDF/ 05:39:23 In RDF, I meant. The way my Tortoise pace logic is taking me, is that the property adds another dimension 05:50:06 * AaronSw and Ben play a bit of Ogres vs. Pixies 05:50:17 cf. http://www.zooko.com/ 05:50:51 * AaronSw wanders off 05:57:38 .time 05:57:39 2002/01/27 05:59:17.3263 Universal 05:58:24 deltab has quit (devlin.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 05:58:32 DoidT is now known as Doid 05:58:46 Doid is now known as Doid-reading 06:00:43 deltab (deltab@mewtwo.espnow.com) has joined #swhack 06:08:48 heh, that Lowtax is rather funny 06:11:11 although WTF is it with him and his pusher bot? He has something going down, there, I reckon :-) 06:14:22 I guess I should probably disappear now. 06:19:09 Doid-reading is now known as DoidT 06:19:15 T? 06:19:22 Tortoise 06:19:27 btw, anyone want to chat about KnowNow somewhere? 06:20:05 i wouldn't mind... but i should probably go to sleep 06:20:22 Always good if you want to 06:20:33 Maybe tomorrow 06:20:39 ok 06:21:59 nite all 06:22:19