00:05:29 tansaku (~sam@h131-009.tokyu-net.catv.ne.jp) has joined #swhack 00:05:43 * sbp waves 00:35:34 Hooray! 00:43:21 GabeW (~gwachob@12-236-92-153.client.attbi.com) has joined #swhack 01:35:36 hacksearc (~rainbow@N889P011.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #swhack 01:35:48 * jeremiah is away: I'm busy 01:35:50 * jeremiah is back (gone 00:00:02) 01:35:52 woops 01:36:05 hi 01:36:17 hello hacksearc 01:36:34 wow someone not asleep ;-) 01:36:40 yeah 01:36:51 well, I just got back from a ~5 mile run 01:36:56 wow 01:37:03 where do you come from? 01:37:14 williamsburg:virginia:us 01:37:28 i am from europe/austria 01:37:34 ooh 01:37:41 I think my website gets hits from austria 01:37:45 which is moderately exciting 01:37:50 really? 01:37:52 yeah 01:38:01 what language do they speak in austria? german? 01:38:07 tell me - are you a hacking expert? yes, german 01:38:14 I do not hack 01:38:19 I could, and I can, but I don't 01:38:25 thats a pitty 01:38:54 even if someone wants you to do it for testing? 01:38:56 do you frequent this irc network? or did you just join the channel because of the name 01:39:18 just for the name, its the first time i am here 01:39:58 this channel is not really about hacking 01:40:24 i see - can you tell me a channel where i can find some hacking-cracks? 01:40:30 I don't know of any 01:40:34 I'm sorry 01:40:41 no prob 01:40:50 jeremiah has quit ("Client Exiting") 01:40:50 not on this network - we use our skills for constructive ends 01:41:17 jeremiah (~jeremiah@ip68-10-30-131.hr.hr.cox.net) has joined #swhack 01:41:28 woops 01:41:38 what happens to you? 01:41:52 I clicked the wrong button 01:42:12 as long as you are not in the pentagon ... ;-) 01:42:19 dont worry 01:42:41 well I do work for the DOD 01:42:46 so... I guess that counts 01:42:54 whats DOD ? 01:43:04 United States Department of Defense 01:43:14 ahh i see 01:43:15 N.B. this channel is publically archived to the Web, in real time 01:43:26 logs are at http://blogspace.com/swhack/chatlogs/ 01:44:00 * jeremiah was kidding about the DOD thing... but hacking is not what this channel is about 01:44:04 "anything you say can and will be used against you in a Google search" 01:44:08 heh 01:44:14 hacking most certainly *is* what this channel is about 01:44:20 cracking, OTOH, is not 01:44:28 well, hacking, but not the hacking hacksearc is talking about 01:44:53 hey i dont want to make you nervous 01:45:07 nervous? 01:45:21 dont know the word in english 01:45:52 tansaku has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:46:06 and i have thought in america you have the right to speak free 01:46:38 who says that we're American? Well, J is... 01:46:41 we do, but we also have self restraint in america 01:48:00 i see 01:48:16 @ sbp - where do yo come from? 01:49:04 the UK 01:50:11 ok, wish you all a nice evening/night, bye 01:50:56 hacksearc has left #swhack 01:52:08 well, s/he didn't last long :-) 01:55:40 jeremiah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 01:57:00 jeremiah (~jeremiah@ip68-10-30-131.hr.hr.cox.net) has joined #swhack 01:57:06 wb 01:57:09 thanks 01:57:12 np 01:57:21 decided to restart xchat... 01:57:24 that and I kiled it by accident 01:57:59 what OS are you on? 01:58:11 Debian Linux 01:58:33 ah. So is Vorpal, I gather 01:58:59 Was that a choice over Red Hat, or something forced upon you? 01:59:05 * sbp has WindowsMe, BTW 01:59:33 I perfer debian 01:59:41 I can update the whole system software with 2 commands 01:59:42 it's nice 02:00:27 * sbp should get a *nix box 02:00:42 they're nice when you know how to use them 02:01:09 so I gather 02:01:31 I've got CygWin, of course, but it's not the same 02:01:58 yeah 02:02:06 Im hungry, and nasty because of my runnnig, so i think I'm gonna go shower now 02:02:24 CygBot (~sbp@m121-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 02:02:28 O.K. 02:02:32 c'ya 02:02:59 bye 02:04:01 * sbp considers moving BIOH to infomesh.net early, and starting to update it again 02:04:21 OTOH, why should I bother? 02:05:10 hmm 02:05:14 blogging is addictive though 02:05:36 true 02:05:59 $ lynx http://radio.weblogs.com/0101542/ -source -dump > bioh`u timenow`.html 02:06:10 > [end] 02:06:26 $ wc bioh*.html 02:06:29 > 592 3853 41883 bioh20020126-020640.html 02:06:29 > [end] 02:06:45 hmm 02:07:04 * sbp wonders where to put it on infomesh.net 02:08:52 * jeremiah is away: concert 02:08:55 Seems that "Bring It On Home" was originally by Sonny Boy Williamson II. The Led Zeppelin version is most famous though, of course 02:34:51 @ http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1777000/1777972.stm 02:34:56 A: BBC News | SCI/TECH | Broadband goes down the drain from sbp 02:35:02 A:|Broadband Goes Down The Drain 02:35:03 titled item A 02:36:25 A::In order to cause less disruption in England's capital, the telcos are resorting to putting the broadband cables in the sewers 02:36:26 commented item A 02:37:28 ooh, good news: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/england/newsid_1779000/1779942.stm 02:54:03 good review for The Thunderthief: http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/classicpop/reviews/rev_jpj.shtml 04:25:31 CygBot has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:30:18 CygBot (~sbp@m321-mp1-cvx5a.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 04:51:02 * jeremiah is back (gone 02:42:10) 04:51:04 hello 04:51:29 Hi there, J 04:52:01 hey sbp 04:52:10 isn't it like... 4am in england? 04:52:13 5am, that is 04:52:17 .time 04:52:17 2002/01/26 04:53:56.0695 Universal 04:52:26 it seems so, yes 04:53:14 wowza 04:54:10 I like to listen to music and reply to email at this time of day (night) :-) 04:54:15 oh 04:54:22 my friend chris has been up for 38 hours straight 04:54:23 he's crazy 04:54:40 tav is a bit like that, too. He seems to go for months without sleep 04:55:27 weird 04:55:34 I don't think I could code if I hadn't slept recently 04:56:32 heh, heh. Yeah, my coding tends to lose its edge late at night, so I listen to music and answer email. Didn't I just tell you all that? :-) 04:57:23 yeah 04:58:29 Actually, I stay up till about this time almost every night, so I guess it's just "normal" for me, now 04:58:34 it seems that a lot of other UKish people on OPN do, too 04:59:12 oh 04:59:18 when do you have to be awake again? 05:01:12 before The Simpsons :-) 05:01:18 oh 05:01:21 do you have day job? 05:01:24 how old are you, btw 05:01:38 I'm an undergraduate, but due to my agoraphobia, I generally work from home 05:01:45 19 05:01:47 you? 05:02:33 heh, I think I'm getting used to my age. People would ask, and I'd say "17... no, wait a minute! fuck, I'm 19 now!" 05:03:59 it's silly - it keeps changing. A year goes by, and the number increases by one - so by the time I get used to it, it's changed 05:04:16 it's the same with years. I'm still typing "1995" on things 05:04:48 sorry, didn't mean to ignore ya there 05:05:04 I am 16 05:05:07 11th grade 05:06:03 ugh, school 05:06:11 yeah, school is lame 05:06:15 but I like the socialization 05:06:18 extremely lame 05:06:20 and I think it holds an important part in my life 05:06:33 well, I found that I could socialize just as easily outside of school 05:06:47 hmm, i think you blogged that somewhere 05:06:53 but I did meet a lot of great friends at school, I admit... 05:06:58 yep, I did indeed. On BIOH 05:07:17 http://radio.weblogs.com/0101542/2002/01/19.html#a30 05:07:46 """The leap from school to college was immense; like leaving some opressive totalitarian regime for the luxury of a liberal democracy.""" 05:08:19 that's really what it felt like. There was still a lot of work to be done, and some stuff was really tough... but the mindset was just so different. And it was a creative period 05:08:31 and now I'm somewhere in the middle 05:08:51 yeah 05:09:00 I think next year I'm going to take one high school class 05:09:02 and a bunch of college ones 05:11:01 well, at least you don't seem to be wating your time too much. You seem to be a bit like Aaron in that you can do several hundred things at once, and still have time for relaxing on IRC 05:11:20 I guess 05:11:24 I think I do much less than aaron 05:11:28 I just give the impression that I do a lot 05:11:46 then again, there have been times when I could do the same. Writing songs, learning to drive, going to parties, watching T.V., doing exams, creating Websites... 05:11:59 impressions are good 05:12:21 yeah 05:12:27 right now I'm not coding anything important 05:12:32 except for the work i wanna do on the plex 05:12:36 which i should talk to tav about 05:12:37 I think 05:14:28 yeah 05:14:46 The Plex is rather important. I'm rather disappointed that I haven't been able to contribute much, if anything 05:15:11 I mean, I did some coding, but it doesn't really do anything all that great. Just an NTriples parser and Gofyniad, a query engine thingy 05:15:32 hmm 05:15:41 I want to write clients for everything for mozilla 05:15:44 And I tried to do some documentation, but I'm not really sure what to write about. Aaron doesn't write much on the Plex, so it's difficult for me 05:15:46 I wanna write a mozilla plex client 05:15:54 that's a good idea 05:15:54 yeah 05:16:02 who started the project? 05:16:17 I want Plex products to be mainstream... if you have to download tons of crap to get it to work, then the Plex as a whole isn't 05:16:19 Aaron did 05:16:26 I have a little history bit, somewhere 05:16:28 ok 05:16:43 I think the main problem is it takes a big brain leap to figure out what he f**ck you guys are talking about 05:16:50 s/he/the 05:17:07 maybe i'll write some docs, now that I'm newly converted and sort of understand what you're talkin about 05:17:52 oddly enough, I think that the principles are rather simple. The P2P stuff can get a bit involving, but everything else is just piss. I mean, it'll all stuff that's been done before, but with a different mindset, and on a much different scale 05:18:21 The Web is a universal information space, and HTTP is pretty good, but it's just too server specific. The P2P side of the Plex will balance out the load so that everyone can contribute 05:18:58 So it'll become easiwer to publish, and there'll also be a sort of ambient feel to the information... in other words, all of the protocols for the Internet can be converted to soem kind of RDF based "format" 05:19:06 at least, I think that's what Aaron was planning 05:19:10 hmm 05:19:17 wow, that still doesn't make a lott sense to me 05:19:20 I mean... I understand it 05:19:31 but I don't see why we need a new system to do this 05:19:47 so, for example, you'd give out some drops of IRC channel text, and spread them into the Plex. You'd drop it into the Plex pond, and it would be propogated over the entire network. Then, it's just a matter of filtering it out and picking it up 05:19:59 new system: because thre isn't anything which does it at all properly today 05:20:26 I mean, the closest thing is Freenet. Freenet! It sucks big time, because although the principle was pretty good, the enigineering is, IMO, rather poor 05:20:31 now does that data propogate depending on demand for it, or does it propogate because the system wants it to? 05:21:19 yeah freenet seems lame 05:21:23 I have yet to get it to give me a single file 05:21:26 probably because of my firewall 05:21:27 hopefully it will propogate because the system wants it to. But there's a fine line, and I think we acknowledge that - I often ask what happens to the data: is it persistent? I think the answer is that yes, the system tries to preserve all of the data that is added to it 05:21:58 of course, someone can issue a command to delete the data that they add (under the aegis of some grand cryptography scheme), but the system might not get the command 05:22:37 firewall: I hope stuff like that doesn't put people off from installing the software. In other words, I hope that when we write the programs, we make sure that it's foolproof on all systems 05:22:45 port quickly, port well 05:23:29 yeah 05:23:37 I think the database aspects of the software are neat 05:23:53 need to think up a lot of good uses before we start letting people smuggle files through it 05:24:04 good being "legitimate" 05:24:12 Yep. I wondered if I could kinda cross pollinate the software with some OS' file-system... 05:24:19 yeah, i was thinking about that earlier today 05:24:23 good uses: there'll be plenty :-) 05:24:24 someone said "I want google on my desktop" 05:24:29 and I thought about it 05:24:38 and today while running, which is when i do most hardcore thinking 05:24:47 I realized that an application could set the RDF stuff for a file 05:24:52 and then it could be dumped into the filesystem 05:25:06 and you could create different searches 05:25:10 like say you open two "browser windows" 05:25:21 and in one of them you search for files that are related to "top secret project" 05:25:29 and then in another you open up all the images you have 05:25:47 and you can drag some images into the search for "top secret project", and their parameters are adjusted so they fit that query 05:25:55 so that the next time you search for "top secret project" they show up 05:26:07 CygBot has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05:26:14 anyways, sorta hard to explain, but I was thinking of writing a plex filesystem for Linux 05:26:17 at some point 05:26:32 that's a good idea. Sort of like having hot-zones for querys. A good GUI interface to a database... 05:26:58 yes 05:26:59 Yeah, well, BeOS has had a database-like filesystem for some time. Perhaps you can build on that 05:27:09 well, it wasn't opensourced 05:27:14 but there is the freebeos project 05:27:15 ah. Crud 05:27:19 err open-beos 05:27:23 .google open-BeOS 05:27:24 open-BeOS: http://open-beos.sourceforge.net 05:27:36 yeah, I used to be a member of it 05:27:46 problem is they want to exactly copy beos 05:27:49 not add onto it 05:27:55 like... they're copying everything, including the bugs 05:28:16 ugh! 05:28:20 when does tav get online? 05:28:34 tav: he probably is online. He's rather elusive 05:29:00 yo, tav, wake-up! 05:29:28 aaron said I had to become an "espian" before I got on the cvs system 05:29:33 and then I guess I should talk to deltab 05:30:17 yeah. Even I don't have CVS access. Then again, I don't particularly need it at this point 05:30:23 here's some Plex history for you: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2001Sep/0067 05:30:33 and http://web.archive.org/web/20011027233319/http://plexdev.org/ 05:30:51 there's some more crap in the #swhack logs. Actually the project has been rather underground 05:31:07 I guess that there has been lots of string pulling by Aaron 05:31:11 in fact, I know that for sure 05:31:34 hmm 05:31:38 I'm impresed by that w3 url 05:31:43 he has lots of these little conversations with people, and he won't tell you about it (unless you ask - he's open), but then sometime later he'll bring something up and you'll think "where'd that come from" 05:32:09 yeah. I got that email in my inbox and thought, "argh, Aaron's off on another rant again" :-) 05:33:00 But it was fun. I was also there when he started to try to name the damn thing. tav still isn't particularly set on "Plex", but I think it'll stick unless they change it soon 05:33:16 I tried to suggest "infomesh"... 05:33:38 I like to ferret about with Web history, and I' 05:33:42 argh 05:34:00 I'm trying to be a good Plex historian in the here and now of it, just in case it becomes significant 05:34:46 and although I can't help but think that it won't, I still stirve to record every scrap of information. #swhack is good for that. I fear the #plex channel logs, because I don't think they'll last. I can't download them, they're not in plain text format, and they suck 05:34:52 sorry, just got yelled at 05:35:01 bummer 05:35:39 yeah 05:35:53 because this girl had sex with this guy, and told me that he had a small dick,a nd somehow it got back to him, but I didn't tell him she said it 05:36:02 'cause I heard from like 8 different sources that his weener was tiny 05:36:03 oh well 05:36:14 ? 05:36:24 long long story 05:36:35 you see, sometimes when people have sex 05:36:36 8 different sources? That's quite hillarious 05:36:37 it goes well 05:36:38 but their time 05:36:42 it went really,r eally bad 05:36:48 and archived for the whole world, now... 05:36:53 yeah 05:36:54 hehe 05:36:55 heh, heh, heh 05:40:45 well, I guess I'd better fold 05:40:50 it's been nice chatting with you 05:41:03 c'ya 05:41:08 yeah 05:41:09 goodnight 05:41:11 or morning 06:15:50 deltab has quit (devlin.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 06:15:50 deus_x has quit (devlin.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 06:15:50 AaronSw has quit (devlin.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 06:15:51 tav` has quit (devlin.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 06:15:51 chumpster has quit (devlin.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 06:16:00 netsplit wooooo! 06:20:38 deus_x (~deusx@bgp993973bgs.nanarb01.mi.comcast.net) has joined #swhack 06:20:40 tav` (tav@host217-34-70-43.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #swhack 06:20:40 chumpster (~chumpster@xcdfddb76.ip.ggn.net) has joined #swhack 06:20:42 deltab (deltab@mewtwo.espnow.com) has joined #swhack 06:20:43 AaronSw (aaronsw@mewtwo.espnow.com) has joined #swhack 06:20:47 tav` has quit (Excess Flood) 06:27:40 tav (tav@host217-34-70-43.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #swhack 07:13:49 * jeremiah is away: I'm busy 07:15:51 hazmat has quit (Remote closed the connection) 07:29:32 GabeW has quit ("Client Exiting") 08:24:46 hazmat (~ender@adsl-66-123-57-58.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) has joined #swhack 14:05:38 jeremiah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:07:16 BenSw has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:10:07 jeremiah (~jeremiah@ip68-10-30-131.hr.hr.cox.net) has joined #swhack 16:50:40 * jeremiah is back (gone 02:40:32) 16:50:42 hmm 17:42:01 * sbp waves 17:42:57 * sbp should do a little work on EARL 18:12:06 hey sbp 18:16:07 Hi there 18:24:09 sbp: how would you answer "whose idea was the plex?" ;p 18:24:51 I'd say "it was the idea of Aaron Swartz, with a little help from his friends". Why? 18:25:23 really? 18:25:28 of course 18:25:49 i wonder how aaron would answer that 18:26:02 Hmm... good question 18:26:32 it was the idea of tav, with a little help from his friends 18:26:34 heh, heh 18:26:42 and you can blame deltab, or someone 18:26:57 "not me, him!" 18:28:50 logster, grep plex |mail tav@espians.com 18:29:26 I'm logging. Mailed 238 results to tav@espians.com 18:29:26 logster, grep mesh |mail tav@espians.com 18:30:01 I'm logging. Mailed 217 results to tav@espians.com 18:30:01 I was the first one to mention the word "plex" in the context of the Plex as we know it now on this channel 18:30:01 I don't dispute that you invented the term 18:30:09 but really, I don't give a crap who inveted it. If anyone starts quibbling about bollocks like that... well... 18:30:54 such projects are collaborative things, involving many people. You can never credit everyone, because the influences are always so wide ranging 18:31:57 ah, here we go:- 18:31:58 first mention of it on #swhack: 2001-10-25 01:38:20 Got Plex? 18:32:22 hmz, where did the long talk we have take place? 18:32:29 the name having been settled upon by yourself and Aaron the day before 18:32:42 it was in private between you and Aaron, AFAIK 18:33:01 we had a small discussion of it on #plex before that, on the morning of the day before 18:33:02 no, the one where i rambled on about the mesh/plex, etc 18:33:14 I have the logs 18:33:23 was it here or rdfig ? 18:33:43 s/#plex/#esp/ 18:33:45 or somewhere 18:33:50 I could find out, I have the logs 18:34:21 it was in #esp 18:34:53 [[[ 18:34:54 Session Start: Wed Oct 24 03:28:27 2001 18:34:54 *** Now talking in #esp 18:34:54 ]]] 18:35:06 no, much earlier sept 10th 18:35:39 no. in that discussion in October, we had not yet settled on the name "Plex". Quite clearly - from the discussion 18:35:55 gah, not talking about damned names 18:36:11 i'm talking about the damned idea/project 18:36:16 oh, you mean the original plexnames discussion? that was on #rdfig 18:36:57 side note: i don't mean to be a credit whore here. but, there are certain ideas that i am proud of, notably the gift market, the mesh layer, etc, and would like them to be rightfully attributed 18:37:36 sure 18:38:36 like I say, I don't really care - I'm sure you got the ideas from many other people, and you won't credit them. But, for FWIW, you can always point people to http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2001-09-11.txt 18:39:35 -- 18:39:35 04:03:11 by me throwing in signed packages into the "mesh" 18:39:36 04:03:21 me = site owner 18:39:36 04:03:21 mesh? 18:39:37 04:03:40 mesh is a place which picks up all this random data you throw about ;p 18:39:37 04:03:46 have you written all this down somewhere? 18:39:38 -- 18:40:08 Hmm... when's Aaron's email from? 18:40:19 ah:- 18:40:19 Message-Id: <200109281746.f8SHkev16256@theinfo.org> 18:40:19 Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 12:13:40 -0500 18:40:19 From: Aaron Swartz 18:40:19 To: Sandro Hawke 18:40:19 Cc: www-archive@w3.org, Tav 18:40:21 Subject: Global Decentralized Triple Store "Mesh" 18:40:32 well, I do apologize 18:41:23 but still, if it wasn't for the work of the Internet, the Web, and P2P before you both... 18:41:34 and I don't think that those people should be forgotten 18:41:48 no need to, aaron's been doing most of the coding so far, and he's got the ball rolling much earlier than i had originally intended to 18:42:30 yeah. like I say, though, it's a lot of things. He couldn't have pushed it out so early if it wasn't for the support and cooperation of Espra 18:42:45 or the "espian community in general", perhaps 18:44:03 I remember the morning of the 11th (I mean, before the rather inafmous events later in the day). It was a frenzied typing session. I was rather tired, but the idea was so intreguing 18:44:34 actually, i didn't realise it was the 11th until aaron and i met 18:45:19 side effects of not sleeping much - days just blend into each other 18:45:26