IRC log of swhack on 2002-01-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:05:29 [tansaku]
tansaku (~sam@h131-009.tokyu-net.catv.ne.jp) has joined #swhack
00:05:43 [sbp]
* sbp waves
00:35:34 [sbp]
Hooray!
00:43:21 [GabeW]
GabeW (~gwachob@12-236-92-153.client.attbi.com) has joined #swhack
01:35:36 [hacksearc]
hacksearc (~rainbow@N889P011.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #swhack
01:35:48 [jeremiah]
* jeremiah is away: I'm busy
01:35:50 [jeremiah]
* jeremiah is back (gone 00:00:02)
01:35:52 [jeremiah]
woops
01:36:05 [hacksearc]
hi
01:36:17 [jeremiah]
hello hacksearc
01:36:34 [hacksearc]
wow someone not asleep ;-)
01:36:40 [jeremiah]
yeah
01:36:51 [jeremiah]
well, I just got back from a ~5 mile run
01:36:56 [hacksearc]
wow
01:37:03 [hacksearc]
where do you come from?
01:37:14 [jeremiah]
williamsburg:virginia:us
01:37:28 [hacksearc]
i am from europe/austria
01:37:34 [jeremiah]
ooh
01:37:41 [jeremiah]
I think my website gets hits from austria
01:37:45 [jeremiah]
which is moderately exciting
01:37:50 [hacksearc]
really?
01:37:52 [jeremiah]
yeah
01:38:01 [jeremiah]
what language do they speak in austria? german?
01:38:07 [hacksearc]
tell me - are you a hacking expert? yes, german
01:38:14 [jeremiah]
I do not hack
01:38:19 [jeremiah]
I could, and I can, but I don't
01:38:25 [hacksearc]
thats a pitty
01:38:54 [hacksearc]
even if someone wants you to do it for testing?
01:38:56 [jeremiah]
do you frequent this irc network? or did you just join the channel because of the name
01:39:18 [hacksearc]
just for the name, its the first time i am here
01:39:58 [jeremiah]
this channel is not really about hacking
01:40:24 [hacksearc]
i see - can you tell me a channel where i can find some hacking-cracks?
01:40:30 [jeremiah]
I don't know of any
01:40:34 [jeremiah]
I'm sorry
01:40:41 [hacksearc]
no prob
01:40:50 [jeremiah]
jeremiah has quit ("Client Exiting")
01:40:50 [deltab]
not on this network - we use our skills for constructive ends
01:41:17 [jeremiah]
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01:41:28 [jeremiah]
woops
01:41:38 [hacksearc]
what happens to you?
01:41:52 [jeremiah]
I clicked the wrong button
01:42:12 [hacksearc]
as long as you are not in the pentagon ... ;-)
01:42:19 [hacksearc]
dont worry
01:42:41 [jeremiah]
well I do work for the DOD
01:42:46 [jeremiah]
so... I guess that counts
01:42:54 [hacksearc]
whats DOD ?
01:43:04 [jeremiah]
United States Department of Defense
01:43:14 [hacksearc]
ahh i see
01:43:15 [sbp]
N.B. this channel is publically archived to the Web, in real time
01:43:26 [sbp]
logs are at http://blogspace.com/swhack/chatlogs/
01:44:00 [jeremiah]
* jeremiah was kidding about the DOD thing... but hacking is not what this channel is about
01:44:04 [sbp]
"anything you say can and will be used against you in a Google search"
01:44:08 [jeremiah]
heh
01:44:14 [sbp]
hacking most certainly *is* what this channel is about
01:44:20 [sbp]
cracking, OTOH, is not
01:44:28 [jeremiah]
well, hacking, but not the hacking hacksearc is talking about
01:44:53 [hacksearc]
hey i dont want to make you nervous
01:45:07 [deltab]
nervous?
01:45:21 [hacksearc]
dont know the word in english
01:45:52 [tansaku]
tansaku has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
01:46:06 [hacksearc]
and i have thought in america you have the right to speak free
01:46:38 [sbp]
who says that we're American? Well, J is...
01:46:41 [jeremiah]
we do, but we also have self restraint in america
01:48:00 [hacksearc]
i see
01:48:16 [hacksearc]
@ sbp - where do yo come from?
01:49:04 [sbp]
the UK
01:50:11 [hacksearc]
ok, wish you all a nice evening/night, bye
01:50:56 [hacksearc]
hacksearc has left #swhack
01:52:08 [sbp]
well, s/he didn't last long :-)
01:55:40 [jeremiah]
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01:57:00 [jeremiah]
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01:57:06 [sbp]
wb
01:57:09 [jeremiah]
thanks
01:57:12 [sbp]
np
01:57:21 [jeremiah]
decided to restart xchat...
01:57:24 [jeremiah]
that and I kiled it by accident
01:57:59 [sbp]
what OS are you on?
01:58:11 [jeremiah]
Debian Linux
01:58:33 [sbp]
ah. So is Vorpal, I gather
01:58:59 [sbp]
Was that a choice over Red Hat, or something forced upon you?
01:59:05 [sbp]
* sbp has WindowsMe, BTW
01:59:33 [jeremiah]
I perfer debian
01:59:41 [jeremiah]
I can update the whole system software with 2 commands
01:59:42 [jeremiah]
it's nice
02:00:27 [sbp]
* sbp should get a *nix box
02:00:42 [jeremiah]
they're nice when you know how to use them
02:01:09 [sbp]
so I gather
02:01:31 [sbp]
I've got CygWin, of course, but it's not the same
02:01:58 [jeremiah]
yeah
02:02:06 [jeremiah]
Im hungry, and nasty because of my runnnig, so i think I'm gonna go shower now
02:02:24 [CygBot]
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02:02:28 [sbp]
O.K.
02:02:32 [sbp]
c'ya
02:02:59 [jeremiah]
bye
02:04:01 [sbp]
* sbp considers moving BIOH to infomesh.net early, and starting to update it again
02:04:21 [sbp]
OTOH, why should I bother?
02:05:10 [jeremiah]
hmm
02:05:14 [jeremiah]
blogging is addictive though
02:05:36 [sbp]
true
02:05:59 [sbp]
$ lynx http://radio.weblogs.com/0101542/ -source -dump > bioh`u timenow`.html
02:06:10 [CygBot]
> [end]
02:06:26 [sbp]
$ wc bioh*.html
02:06:29 [CygBot]
> 592 3853 41883 bioh20020126-020640.html
02:06:29 [CygBot]
> [end]
02:06:45 [jeremiah]
hmm
02:07:04 [sbp]
* sbp wonders where to put it on infomesh.net
02:08:52 [jeremiah]
* jeremiah is away: concert
02:08:55 [sbp]
Seems that "Bring It On Home" was originally by Sonny Boy Williamson II. The Led Zeppelin version is most famous though, of course
02:34:51 [sbp]
@ http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1777000/1777972.stm
02:34:56 [chumpster]
A: BBC News | SCI/TECH | Broadband goes down the drain from sbp
02:35:02 [sbp]
A:|Broadband Goes Down The Drain
02:35:03 [chumpster]
titled item A
02:36:25 [sbp]
A::In order to cause less disruption in England's capital, the telcos are resorting to putting the broadband cables in the sewers
02:36:26 [chumpster]
commented item A
02:37:28 [sbp]
ooh, good news: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/england/newsid_1779000/1779942.stm
02:54:03 [sbp]
good review for The Thunderthief: http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/classicpop/reviews/rev_jpj.shtml
04:25:31 [CygBot]
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04:51:02 [jeremiah]
* jeremiah is back (gone 02:42:10)
04:51:04 [jeremiah]
hello
04:51:29 [sbp]
Hi there, J
04:52:01 [jeremiah]
hey sbp
04:52:10 [jeremiah]
isn't it like... 4am in england?
04:52:13 [jeremiah]
5am, that is
04:52:17 [sbp]
.time
04:52:17 [xena]
2002/01/26 04:53:56.0695 Universal
04:52:26 [sbp]
it seems so, yes
04:53:14 [jeremiah]
wowza
04:54:10 [sbp]
I like to listen to music and reply to email at this time of day (night) :-)
04:54:15 [jeremiah]
oh
04:54:22 [jeremiah]
my friend chris has been up for 38 hours straight
04:54:23 [jeremiah]
he's crazy
04:54:40 [sbp]
tav is a bit like that, too. He seems to go for months without sleep
04:55:27 [jeremiah]
weird
04:55:34 [jeremiah]
I don't think I could code if I hadn't slept recently
04:56:32 [sbp]
heh, heh. Yeah, my coding tends to lose its edge late at night, so I listen to music and answer email. Didn't I just tell you all that? :-)
04:57:23 [jeremiah]
yeah
04:58:29 [sbp]
Actually, I stay up till about this time almost every night, so I guess it's just "normal" for me, now
04:58:34 [sbp]
it seems that a lot of other UKish people on OPN do, too
04:59:12 [jeremiah]
oh
04:59:18 [jeremiah]
when do you have to be awake again?
05:01:12 [sbp]
before The Simpsons :-)
05:01:18 [jeremiah]
oh
05:01:21 [jeremiah]
do you have day job?
05:01:24 [jeremiah]
how old are you, btw
05:01:38 [sbp]
I'm an undergraduate, but due to my agoraphobia, I generally work from home
05:01:45 [sbp]
19
05:01:47 [sbp]
you?
05:02:33 [sbp]
heh, I think I'm getting used to my age. People would ask, and I'd say "17... no, wait a minute! fuck, I'm 19 now!"
05:03:59 [sbp]
it's silly - it keeps changing. A year goes by, and the number increases by one - so by the time I get used to it, it's changed
05:04:16 [sbp]
it's the same with years. I'm still typing "1995" on things
05:04:48 [jeremiah]
sorry, didn't mean to ignore ya there
05:05:04 [jeremiah]
I am 16
05:05:07 [jeremiah]
11th grade
05:06:03 [sbp]
ugh, school
05:06:11 [jeremiah]
yeah, school is lame
05:06:15 [jeremiah]
but I like the socialization
05:06:18 [sbp]
extremely lame
05:06:20 [jeremiah]
and I think it holds an important part in my life
05:06:33 [sbp]
well, I found that I could socialize just as easily outside of school
05:06:47 [jeremiah]
hmm, i think you blogged that somewhere
05:06:53 [sbp]
but I did meet a lot of great friends at school, I admit...
05:06:58 [sbp]
yep, I did indeed. On BIOH
05:07:17 [sbp]
http://radio.weblogs.com/0101542/2002/01/19.html#a30
05:07:46 [sbp]
"""The leap from school to college was immense; like leaving some opressive totalitarian regime for the luxury of a liberal democracy."""
05:08:19 [sbp]
that's really what it felt like. There was still a lot of work to be done, and some stuff was really tough... but the mindset was just so different. And it was a creative period
05:08:31 [sbp]
and now I'm somewhere in the middle
05:08:51 [jeremiah]
yeah
05:09:00 [jeremiah]
I think next year I'm going to take one high school class
05:09:02 [jeremiah]
and a bunch of college ones
05:11:01 [sbp]
well, at least you don't seem to be wating your time too much. You seem to be a bit like Aaron in that you can do several hundred things at once, and still have time for relaxing on IRC
05:11:20 [jeremiah]
I guess
05:11:24 [jeremiah]
I think I do much less than aaron
05:11:28 [jeremiah]
I just give the impression that I do a lot
05:11:46 [sbp]
then again, there have been times when I could do the same. Writing songs, learning to drive, going to parties, watching T.V., doing exams, creating Websites...
05:11:59 [sbp]
impressions are good
05:12:21 [jeremiah]
yeah
05:12:27 [jeremiah]
right now I'm not coding anything important
05:12:32 [jeremiah]
except for the work i wanna do on the plex
05:12:36 [jeremiah]
which i should talk to tav about
05:12:37 [jeremiah]
I think
05:14:28 [sbp]
yeah
05:14:46 [sbp]
The Plex is rather important. I'm rather disappointed that I haven't been able to contribute much, if anything
05:15:11 [sbp]
I mean, I did some coding, but it doesn't really do anything all that great. Just an NTriples parser and Gofyniad, a query engine thingy
05:15:32 [jeremiah]
hmm
05:15:41 [jeremiah]
I want to write clients for everything for mozilla
05:15:44 [sbp]
And I tried to do some documentation, but I'm not really sure what to write about. Aaron doesn't write much on the Plex, so it's difficult for me
05:15:46 [jeremiah]
I wanna write a mozilla plex client
05:15:54 [sbp]
that's a good idea
05:15:54 [jeremiah]
yeah
05:16:02 [jeremiah]
who started the project?
05:16:17 [sbp]
I want Plex products to be mainstream... if you have to download tons of crap to get it to work, then the Plex as a whole isn't
05:16:19 [sbp]
Aaron did
05:16:26 [sbp]
I have a little history bit, somewhere
05:16:28 [jeremiah]
ok
05:16:43 [jeremiah]
I think the main problem is it takes a big brain leap to figure out what he f**ck you guys are talking about
05:16:50 [jeremiah]
s/he/the
05:17:07 [jeremiah]
maybe i'll write some docs, now that I'm newly converted and sort of understand what you're talkin about
05:17:52 [sbp]
oddly enough, I think that the principles are rather simple. The P2P stuff can get a bit involving, but everything else is just piss. I mean, it'll all stuff that's been done before, but with a different mindset, and on a much different scale
05:18:21 [sbp]
The Web is a universal information space, and HTTP is pretty good, but it's just too server specific. The P2P side of the Plex will balance out the load so that everyone can contribute
05:18:58 [sbp]
So it'll become easiwer to publish, and there'll also be a sort of ambient feel to the information... in other words, all of the protocols for the Internet can be converted to soem kind of RDF based "format"
05:19:06 [sbp]
at least, I think that's what Aaron was planning
05:19:10 [jeremiah]
hmm
05:19:17 [jeremiah]
wow, that still doesn't make a lott sense to me
05:19:20 [jeremiah]
I mean... I understand it
05:19:31 [jeremiah]
but I don't see why we need a new system to do this
05:19:47 [sbp]
so, for example, you'd give out some drops of IRC channel text, and spread them into the Plex. You'd drop it into the Plex pond, and it would be propogated over the entire network. Then, it's just a matter of filtering it out and picking it up
05:19:59 [sbp]
new system: because thre isn't anything which does it at all properly today
05:20:26 [sbp]
I mean, the closest thing is Freenet. Freenet! It sucks big time, because although the principle was pretty good, the enigineering is, IMO, rather poor
05:20:31 [jeremiah]
now does that data propogate depending on demand for it, or does it propogate because the system wants it to?
05:21:19 [jeremiah]
yeah freenet seems lame
05:21:23 [jeremiah]
I have yet to get it to give me a single file
05:21:26 [jeremiah]
probably because of my firewall
05:21:27 [sbp]
hopefully it will propogate because the system wants it to. But there's a fine line, and I think we acknowledge that - I often ask what happens to the data: is it persistent? I think the answer is that yes, the system tries to preserve all of the data that is added to it
05:21:58 [sbp]
of course, someone can issue a command to delete the data that they add (under the aegis of some grand cryptography scheme), but the system might not get the command
05:22:37 [sbp]
firewall: I hope stuff like that doesn't put people off from installing the software. In other words, I hope that when we write the programs, we make sure that it's foolproof on all systems
05:22:45 [sbp]
port quickly, port well
05:23:29 [jeremiah]
yeah
05:23:37 [jeremiah]
I think the database aspects of the software are neat
05:23:53 [jeremiah]
need to think up a lot of good uses before we start letting people smuggle files through it
05:24:04 [jeremiah]
good being "legitimate"
05:24:12 [sbp]
Yep. I wondered if I could kinda cross pollinate the software with some OS' file-system...
05:24:19 [jeremiah]
yeah, i was thinking about that earlier today
05:24:23 [sbp]
good uses: there'll be plenty :-)
05:24:24 [jeremiah]
someone said "I want google on my desktop"
05:24:29 [jeremiah]
and I thought about it
05:24:38 [jeremiah]
and today while running, which is when i do most hardcore thinking
05:24:47 [jeremiah]
I realized that an application could set the RDF stuff for a file
05:24:52 [jeremiah]
and then it could be dumped into the filesystem
05:25:06 [jeremiah]
and you could create different searches
05:25:10 [jeremiah]
like say you open two "browser windows"
05:25:21 [jeremiah]
and in one of them you search for files that are related to "top secret project"
05:25:29 [jeremiah]
and then in another you open up all the images you have
05:25:47 [jeremiah]
and you can drag some images into the search for "top secret project", and their parameters are adjusted so they fit that query
05:25:55 [jeremiah]
so that the next time you search for "top secret project" they show up
05:26:07 [CygBot]
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05:26:14 [jeremiah]
anyways, sorta hard to explain, but I was thinking of writing a plex filesystem for Linux
05:26:17 [jeremiah]
at some point
05:26:32 [sbp]
that's a good idea. Sort of like having hot-zones for querys. A good GUI interface to a database...
05:26:58 [jeremiah]
yes
05:26:59 [sbp]
Yeah, well, BeOS has had a database-like filesystem for some time. Perhaps you can build on that
05:27:09 [jeremiah]
well, it wasn't opensourced
05:27:14 [jeremiah]
but there is the freebeos project
05:27:15 [sbp]
ah. Crud
05:27:19 [jeremiah]
err open-beos
05:27:23 [sbp]
.google open-BeOS
05:27:24 [xena]
open-BeOS: http://open-beos.sourceforge.net
05:27:36 [jeremiah]
yeah, I used to be a member of it
05:27:46 [jeremiah]
problem is they want to exactly copy beos
05:27:49 [jeremiah]
not add onto it
05:27:55 [jeremiah]
like... they're copying everything, including the bugs
05:28:16 [sbp]
ugh!
05:28:20 [jeremiah]
when does tav get online?
05:28:34 [sbp]
tav: he probably is online. He's rather elusive
05:29:00 [sbp]
yo, tav, wake-up!
05:29:28 [jeremiah]
aaron said I had to become an "espian" before I got on the cvs system
05:29:33 [jeremiah]
and then I guess I should talk to deltab
05:30:17 [sbp]
yeah. Even I don't have CVS access. Then again, I don't particularly need it at this point
05:30:23 [sbp]
here's some Plex history for you: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2001Sep/0067
05:30:33 [sbp]
and http://web.archive.org/web/20011027233319/http://plexdev.org/
05:30:51 [sbp]
there's some more crap in the #swhack logs. Actually the project has been rather underground
05:31:07 [sbp]
I guess that there has been lots of string pulling by Aaron
05:31:11 [sbp]
in fact, I know that for sure
05:31:34 [jeremiah]
hmm
05:31:38 [jeremiah]
I'm impresed by that w3 url
05:31:43 [sbp]
he has lots of these little conversations with people, and he won't tell you about it (unless you ask - he's open), but then sometime later he'll bring something up and you'll think "where'd that come from"
05:32:09 [sbp]
yeah. I got that email in my inbox and thought, "argh, Aaron's off on another rant again" :-)
05:33:00 [sbp]
But it was fun. I was also there when he started to try to name the damn thing. tav still isn't particularly set on "Plex", but I think it'll stick unless they change it soon
05:33:16 [sbp]
I tried to suggest "infomesh"...
05:33:38 [sbp]
I like to ferret about with Web history, and I'
05:33:42 [sbp]
argh
05:34:00 [sbp]
I'm trying to be a good Plex historian in the here and now of it, just in case it becomes significant
05:34:46 [sbp]
and although I can't help but think that it won't, I still stirve to record every scrap of information. #swhack is good for that. I fear the #plex channel logs, because I don't think they'll last. I can't download them, they're not in plain text format, and they suck
05:34:52 [jeremiah]
sorry, just got yelled at
05:35:01 [sbp]
bummer
05:35:39 [jeremiah]
yeah
05:35:53 [jeremiah]
because this girl had sex with this guy, and told me that he had a small dick,a nd somehow it got back to him, but I didn't tell him she said it
05:36:02 [jeremiah]
'cause I heard from like 8 different sources that his weener was tiny
05:36:03 [jeremiah]
oh well
05:36:14 [sbp]
?
05:36:24 [jeremiah]
long long story
05:36:35 [jeremiah]
you see, sometimes when people have sex
05:36:36 [sbp]
8 different sources? That's quite hillarious
05:36:37 [jeremiah]
it goes well
05:36:38 [jeremiah]
but their time
05:36:42 [jeremiah]
it went really,r eally bad
05:36:48 [sbp]
and archived for the whole world, now...
05:36:53 [jeremiah]
yeah
05:36:54 [jeremiah]
hehe
05:36:55 [sbp]
heh, heh, heh
05:40:45 [sbp]
well, I guess I'd better fold
05:40:50 [sbp]
it's been nice chatting with you
05:41:03 [sbp]
c'ya
05:41:08 [jeremiah]
yeah
05:41:09 [jeremiah]
goodnight
05:41:11 [jeremiah]
or morning
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06:16:00 [jeremiah]
netsplit wooooo!
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16:50:40 [jeremiah]
* jeremiah is back (gone 02:40:32)
16:50:42 [jeremiah]
hmm
17:42:01 [sbp]
* sbp waves
17:42:57 [sbp]
* sbp should do a little work on EARL
18:12:06 [jeremiah]
hey sbp
18:16:07 [sbp]
Hi there
18:24:09 [tav]
sbp: how would you answer "whose idea was the plex?" ;p
18:24:51 [sbp]
I'd say "it was the idea of Aaron Swartz, with a little help from his friends". Why?
18:25:23 [tav]
really?
18:25:28 [sbp]
of course
18:25:49 [tav]
i wonder how aaron would answer that
18:26:02 [sbp]
Hmm... good question
18:26:32 [sbp]
<AaronSw> it was the idea of tav, with a little help from his friends
18:26:34 [sbp]
heh, heh
18:26:42 [sbp]
and you can blame deltab, or someone
18:26:57 [sbp]
"not me, him!"
18:28:50 [tav]
logster, grep plex |mail tav@espians.com
18:29:26 [tav]
I'm logging. Mailed 238 results to tav@espians.com
18:29:26 [tav]
logster, grep mesh |mail tav@espians.com
18:30:01 [tav]
I'm logging. Mailed 217 results to tav@espians.com
18:30:01 [sbp]
I was the first one to mention the word "plex" in the context of the Plex as we know it now on this channel
18:30:01 [sbp]
I don't dispute that you invented the term
18:30:09 [sbp]
but really, I don't give a crap who inveted it. If anyone starts quibbling about bollocks like that... well...
18:30:54 [sbp]
such projects are collaborative things, involving many people. You can never credit everyone, because the influences are always so wide ranging
18:31:57 [sbp]
ah, here we go:-
18:31:58 [sbp]
<sbp> first mention of it on #swhack: 2001-10-25 01:38:20 <sbp> Got Plex?
18:32:22 [tav]
hmz, where did the long talk we have take place?
18:32:29 [sbp]
the name having been settled upon by yourself and Aaron the day before
18:32:42 [sbp]
it was in private between you and Aaron, AFAIK
18:33:01 [sbp]
we had a small discussion of it on #plex before that, on the morning of the day before
18:33:02 [tav]
no, the one where i rambled on about the mesh/plex, etc
18:33:14 [sbp]
I have the logs
18:33:23 [tav]
was it here or rdfig ?
18:33:43 [sbp]
s/#plex/#esp/
18:33:45 [sbp]
or somewhere
18:33:50 [sbp]
I could find out, I have the logs
18:34:21 [sbp]
it was in #esp
18:34:53 [sbp]
[[[
18:34:54 [sbp]
Session Start: Wed Oct 24 03:28:27 2001
18:34:54 [sbp]
*** Now talking in #esp
18:34:54 [sbp]
]]]
18:35:06 [tav]
no, much earlier sept 10th
18:35:39 [sbp]
no. in that discussion in October, we had not yet settled on the name "Plex". Quite clearly - from the discussion
18:35:55 [tav]
gah, not talking about damned names
18:36:11 [tav]
i'm talking about the damned idea/project
18:36:16 [sbp]
oh, you mean the original plexnames discussion? that was on #rdfig
18:36:57 [tav]
side note: i don't mean to be a credit whore here. but, there are certain ideas that i am proud of, notably the gift market, the mesh layer, etc, and would like them to be rightfully attributed
18:37:36 [sbp]
sure
18:38:36 [sbp]
like I say, I don't really care - I'm sure you got the ideas from many other people, and you won't credit them. But, for FWIW, you can always point people to http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2001-09-11.txt
18:39:35 [tav]
--
18:39:35 [tav]
04:03:11 <tav> by me throwing in signed packages into the "mesh"
18:39:36 [tav]
04:03:21 <tav> me = site owner
18:39:36 [tav]
04:03:21 <AaronSw> mesh?
18:39:37 [tav]
04:03:40 <tav> mesh is a place which picks up all this random data you throw about ;p
18:39:37 [tav]
04:03:46 <sbp> have you written all this down somewhere?
18:39:38 [tav]
--
18:40:08 [sbp]
Hmm... when's Aaron's email from?
18:40:19 [sbp]
ah:-
18:40:19 [sbp]
Message-Id: <200109281746.f8SHkev16256@theinfo.org>
18:40:19 [sbp]
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 12:13:40 -0500
18:40:19 [sbp]
From: Aaron Swartz <aswartz@upclink.com>
18:40:19 [sbp]
To: Sandro Hawke <sandro@w3.org>
18:40:19 [sbp]
Cc: www-archive@w3.org, Tav <tav@espnow.com>
18:40:21 [sbp]
Subject: Global Decentralized Triple Store "Mesh"
18:40:32 [sbp]
well, I do apologize
18:41:23 [sbp]
but still, if it wasn't for the work of the Internet, the Web, and P2P before you both...
18:41:34 [sbp]
and I don't think that those people should be forgotten
18:41:48 [tav]
no need to, aaron's been doing most of the coding so far, and he's got the ball rolling much earlier than i had originally intended to
18:42:30 [sbp]
yeah. like I say, though, it's a lot of things. He couldn't have pushed it out so early if it wasn't for the support and cooperation of Espra
18:42:45 [sbp]
or the "espian community in general", perhaps
18:44:03 [sbp]
I remember the morning of the 11th (I mean, before the rather inafmous events later in the day). It was a frenzied typing session. I was rather tired, but the idea was so intreguing
18:44:34 [tav]
actually, i didn't realise it was the 11th until aaron and i met
18:45:19 [tav]
side effects of not sleeping much - days just blend into each other
18:45:26 [sbp]
it was a pretty unforgettable day - although I suppose other things took precedence
18:45:37 [sbp]
yeah
18:47:19 [sbp]
If anyone asks, I'll say that deltab invented it. It's more plausible
18:47:26 [sbp]
:-)
18:47:54 [tav]
heh
18:48:00 [tav]
actually, he probably did
18:49:05 [sbp]
oh, interesting: 05:02:23 <tav> initially, there are three layers, content / communication / commerce
18:49:10 [tav]
i realised yesterday that deltab's my mentor of sorts
18:49:27 [sbp]
Aaron's been reading the logs, or something. He mistakenly used the three "c"s as his "world plan" the other day
18:49:33 [tav]
s/of sorts/
18:49:34 [sbp]
mentor? seems reasonable
18:50:01 [tav]
ah, i rambled on when we met up
18:50:10 [tav]
we talked about the three c's then
18:50:42 [sbp]
aha
18:51:32 [sbp]
Heh, when Aaron visited me, we didn't speak. Well, we probably said all of about 10 words to each other
18:53:14 [tav]
so much anal milking eh? ;p
18:53:52 [tav]
he told me he wasn't into it when we met up
18:53:59 [tav]
* tav gets jealous
19:01:11 [jeremiah]
hmm
19:01:49 [jeremiah]
* jeremiah turned on timestamps, irc makes more sense now
19:02:24 [tav]
gah! see!
19:02:25 [tav]
--
19:02:26 [tav]
Here is how the plex began: "
19:02:27 [tav]
--
19:03:21 [jeremiah]
hmm
19:03:27 [jeremiah]
* jeremiah is not a plex historian
19:03:37 [jeremiah]
I can change that to "here's something about the plex from a long time ago, I think"
19:03:39 [jeremiah]
if you'd like
19:05:19 [tav]
http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2001-09-11.txt <-------- first public discussion of the plex
19:05:55 [tav]
hmz. i'm being one of those arrogant self-centered bitches now, aren't i
19:05:56 [tav]
?
19:06:11 [jeremiah]
I dunno
19:06:33 [jeremiah]
I want to start contributing code, or at least become a cvs member, aaron said I have to be an 'espian' before I reach that stage...
19:06:41 [jeremiah]
and you seem to hold the keys to being an espian
19:06:44 [tav]
ah cool
19:07:28 [tav]
* tav does the magic incantation and certifies jeremiah as an espian
19:07:36 [jeremiah]
cool
19:07:49 [jeremiah]
so... I still have no idea what an espian is, except being a member of some computer network
19:08:48 [tav]
we're a bunch of people on a mission to take over and change the world ;p
19:09:01 [jeremiah]
oh
19:10:26 [tav]
legally, we work for "espian technologies ltd"
19:11:03 [jeremiah]
oh
19:11:04 [tav]
which is owned by esp worldwide ltd, which in turn is owned 100% by the ecclesia
19:11:17 [jeremiah]
* jeremiah has a feeling tav is talkin gibbberish
19:11:17 [tav]
the ecclesia is the collective formed by all full espians
19:11:51 [tav]
what? you don't have a glossolaliac convertor?
19:12:02 [jeremiah]
no
19:12:10 [jeremiah]
I do have these lithium crystals though
19:12:13 [jeremiah]
will they help?
19:12:51 [tav]
perfect! you can use them to make a avi shields
19:12:58 [tav]
s/a //
19:13:27 [tav]
now, there are three tiers of espians - open, fuzzy, full
19:13:32 [jeremiah]
hmm
19:14:11 [tav]
and what tier you belong to depends on how you are certified
19:14:15 [jeremiah]
ok
19:14:20 [tav]
familiar with the advogato trust metric system?
19:14:25 [jeremiah]
sort of
19:14:45 [jeremiah]
I mean, I know of trust metrics and such
19:14:47 [jeremiah]
and rankings
19:14:49 [jeremiah]
like on everything2
19:15:13 [tav]
well, this is similar, except that, although we have a seed based trust metric, you can demote those closer to the seed than you are
19:15:37 [jeremiah]
oh
19:15:55 [jeremiah]
so what's the interface to all of this?
19:16:03 [jeremiah]
and how many espians are there?
19:16:35 [tav]
22
19:16:45 [jeremiah]
ok
19:16:48 [tav]
re: interface, there's the fabled xnet
19:17:09 [jeremiah]
oh crap, I have band practice in 10 minutes
19:17:10 [jeremiah]
in theory
19:17:20 [tav]
ooh, what do you play?
19:17:28 [jeremiah]
guitar
19:17:34 [tav]
nice
19:17:40 [jeremiah]
not very well though
19:17:43 [tav]
sbp too
19:17:47 [tav]
plays the guitar i mean
19:18:14 [jeremiah]
I don't practice it nearly enough
19:19:05 [jeremiah]
so anyways, I hear I have to be an espian in order to use the CVS system
19:19:38 [tav]
i believe you'd love being an espian
19:19:44 [jeremiah]
cool
19:20:09 [tav]
that reminds me, i need to sign up hazmat as well
19:20:27 [jeremiah]
do you reall stay awake for days at a time?
19:20:30 [jeremiah]
because I have a friend who does too
19:20:44 [jeremiah]
I'm thinking of switching to a 36 hours awake 12 asleep schedule
19:21:14 [tav]
what's your primary email address? jeremiah@kaxis.cx?
19:21:26 [jeremiah]
yes.. maybe use jeremiah@kingprimate.com though
19:21:30 [jeremiah]
I think I'll have kingprimate for longer
19:21:36 [tav]
yes, i stay awake for many days
19:22:13 [tav]
i do meditate though
19:22:23 [tav]
that's how i "recharge the battery" so to speak
19:22:43 [jeremiah]
oh
19:22:51 [jeremiah]
I gotta go shower and stuff
19:22:53 [jeremiah]
talk to you later
19:22:55 [tav]
laters
19:22:56 [jeremiah]
after band practice
19:22:59 [jeremiah]
* jeremiah is away: band practice
20:01:47 [sbp]
heh, heh: what? you don't have a glossolaliac convertor?
20:04:01 [sbp]
my connection must have cut out; here's what's missing:-
20:04:02 [sbp]
[[[
20:04:02 [sbp]
<sbp> Heh, when Aaron visited me, we didn't speak. Well, we probably said all of about 10 words to each other
20:04:03 [sbp]
<sbp> "Hi" "How was the trip?" "fine, thanks" "cool"
20:04:03 [sbp]
<sbp> "how's PyBlogspace coming along" "I've not really had time for it" "oh"
20:04:03 [sbp]
<sbp> and that was about it
20:04:04 [sbp]
<sbp> the coolest bit of the meeting is when he sat down at my computer and instantly started tapping things into #swhack :-)
20:04:07 [sbp]
<sbp> Gotta run
20:04:09 [sbp]
<sbp> thanks for setting a bit of my patchy grasp of history straight
20:04:11 [sbp]
]]]
20:11:04 [sbp]
heh, heh:-
20:11:06 [sbp]
<tav> ooh, what do you play?
20:11:06 [sbp]
<jeremiah> guitar
20:11:08 [sbp]
[...]
20:11:12 [sbp]
<jeremiah> not very well though
20:11:12 [sbp]
<tav> sbp too
20:11:12 [sbp]
<tav> plays the guitar i mean
21:11:18 [sbp]
ooh, I could modularize the algorithm for querying EARL. That'd be quite neat
21:36:58 [sbp]
Hmm... earl:suite = earl:id .
21:37:18 [sbp]
that makes things quite a bit easier
21:37:59 [sbp]
it's a bit like a scalar - you might have a test ID that is comprised of lots of other test IDs, or they might be singular. They might have some RDF structure to them that you can retrieve from the Web and parse, or they may not
21:38:41 [sbp]
example: an alt test, WCAG 1.0, all priority 1 checkpoints
21:39:53 [sbp]
[ earl:id :AltTest ] . [ earl:suite :WCAG10 ] . [ earl:testCriteria [ earl:suite :WCAG10; earl:level :P1 ] ] . # is traditional
21:41:36 [sbp]
in fact, earl:suite in EARL 0.95 means "the document that describes a number of test points"
21:41:57 [sbp]
TestCriteria is some subset of that
22:13:53 [sbp]
* sbp just watched Britney Spears on Frank Skinner
22:14:03 [sbp]
pretty damn funny
22:14:46 [sbp]
HE did a duet with her - "I Got You Babe". I think she does sing a bit flat, but not enough that they'd have to tweak it on the fly (I don't think any of her fans would notice)
22:15:31 [sbp]
of course, that probably doesn't stop them from running it through a few banks of effects machines...
22:21:33 [sbp]
anyway, back to EARL
22:21:52 [sbp]
I think that it's acceptable to use things straight up for TestCases, with no indirection
22:22:03 [sbp]
for example, in one of the 0.95 example files, we have:-
22:22:12 [sbp]
<http://myns.org/1/#altText> a :TestCase;
22:22:13 [sbp]
:id <http://w3.org/tr/wcag#cp1.1>;
22:22:39 [sbp]
why not just: <http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG#cp1.1> a :TestCase . # ?
22:23:08 [sbp]
it makes a good identifier for the TestCase
22:24:49 [sbp]
well, perhaps the distinction between id and suite is well-founded. After all, a suite is a bag of test IDs
22:25:08 [sbp]
and I doubt that experiments such as http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-er-ig/2001May/0086 would be possible without it
22:26:48 [sbp]
exclusions are quite tricky. I'm not sure that they're processable with CWM at the moment
22:28:09 [sbp]
e.g.
22:28:09 [sbp]
[ :testCriteria [
22:28:09 [sbp]
:suite <http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/>;
22:28:09 [sbp]
:level wcag:wc-priority-1;
22:28:09 [sbp]
:exclusion [
22:28:09 [sbp]
:id wcag:tech-text-equivalent ] ]
22:28:11 [sbp]
] .
22:28:22 [sbp]
Hmm...
22:28:26 [sbp]
perhaps it is possible
22:29:46 [sbp]
assuming you filter ?x :exclusion [ :id ?y ] . to ?x :excludesId ?y .
22:32:05 [sbp]
{ ?p earl:testCriteria
22:32:05 [sbp]
[ earl:suite <http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/>;
22:32:05 [sbp]
earl:level ?q;
22:32:05 [sbp]
:excludesID ?r ] .
22:32:05 [sbp]
?y wcagearl:priority ?s; log:notEqualTo ?r } log:implies
22:32:05 [sbp]
{ ?p earl:id ?s } .
22:32:18 [sbp]
a bit tricky, though
22:33:23 [sbp]
oops, I screwed that up
22:34:01 [sbp]
{ ?p earl:testCriteria
22:34:01 [sbp]
[ earl:suite <http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/>;
22:34:01 [sbp]
earl:level ?q;
22:34:01 [sbp]
:excludesID ?r ] .
22:34:01 [sbp]
?s wcagearl:priority ?q; log:notEqualTo ?r } log:implies
22:34:02 [sbp]
{ ?p earl:id ?s } .
22:34:32 [sbp]
so first, you have to resolve suites on exclusions
22:34:45 [sbp]
then filter down the IDs to excludesID
22:34:57 [sbp]
then, filter down subsequent suites into IDs
22:35:18 [sbp]
and really, it's all just shorthand
22:35:44 [sbp]
I suppose as long as I can demonstrate some running code working under CWM, I can leave it in
22:36:03 [sbp]
after all, the TestCase doesn't change semantics by using this shorthand, and it probably makes it easier to read
22:36:15 [sbp]
I'm a bit cautious about leaving in the exclusions, though
22:42:35 [sbp]
ah, so a Suite is really just a collection of IDs that can be enumerated elsewhere
22:42:47 [sbp]
earl:Suite = earl:TestCase .
22:42:55 [sbp]
[in 0.95]
22:43:34 [sbp]
ooh, so...
22:43:47 [sbp]
nope
22:44:16 [sbp]
I was thinking that we can just subt. one for t'other in the WCAG merging example, but in fact we provide a level too
22:44:40 [sbp]
so earl:suite constructs the main TestCase out of other bits, and the same for testCriteria
22:46:19 [sbp]
* sbp prepares a complex test case
22:46:28 [sbp]
heh, and it's a TestCase :-)
22:46:45 [sbp]
so I can evaluate EARL as a language using EARL...
22:51:11 [sbp]
* sbp adds earl:priority
23:46:20 [sbp]
Hmm... I can get it to work when there's only one exclusion, but any more borks it
23:54:03 [tomc]
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