00:00:30 deus_x has quit (devlin.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 00:02:21 AaronSw has quit (devlin.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 00:02:21 sbp has quit (devlin.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 00:02:21 tav` has quit (devlin.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 00:02:21 chumpster has quit (devlin.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 00:03:56 deus_x (~deusx@bgp993973bgs.nanarb01.mi.comcast.net) has joined #swhack 00:03:56 tav` (tav@host217-34-70-43.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #swhack 00:03:56 chumpster (~chumpster@xcdfddb76.ip.ggn.net) has joined #swhack 00:03:56 AaronSw (aaronsw@mewtwo.espnow.com) has joined #swhack 00:03:56 sbp (~sean@63.149.73.20) has joined #swhack 00:04:43 tav` has quit (Excess Flood) 00:05:23 deus_x has quit (devlin.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 00:05:23 chumpster has quit (devlin.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 00:05:23 sbp has quit (devlin.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 00:05:23 AaronSw has quit (devlin.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 00:07:01 deus_x (~deusx@bgp993973bgs.nanarb01.mi.comcast.net) has joined #swhack 00:07:01 sbp (~sean@63.149.73.20) has joined #swhack 00:07:01 AaronSw (aaronsw@mewtwo.espnow.com) has joined #swhack 00:07:01 chumpster (~chumpster@xcdfddb76.ip.ggn.net) has joined #swhack 00:07:53 tav` (tav@host217-34-70-43.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #swhack 00:10:45 deltab has quit (devlin.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 00:11:43 deltab (deltab@mewtwo.espnow.com) has joined #swhack 00:11:59 tansaku (~sam@n146-073.tokyu-net.catv.ne.jp) has joined #swhack 01:01:22 hm, if i subclass a type, how do I get at its data? 01:03:00 get at its data? 01:03:05 yeah 01:03:27 i guess you just examine self. hm 01:03:27 how so? 01:03:37 I mean, it'll inherit 01:03:46 you can use __dict__ or something 01:03:58 no, it's just dict 01:04:18 that's funky 01:07:54 Heh, I tried that and it segfaulted. 01:08:04 def __getitem__(self, i): 01:08:04 if self[i]: return self[i] 01:08:04 else: return None 01:10:07 self[i]? ew... 01:10:49 try "for key in self.__dict__.keys(): getattr(self, key)" 01:10:57 or something like that 01:12:29 er... return getattr[...], that is 01:44:24 heh, heh: http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert20365619020122.gif 01:44:46 pfft, that won't work 01:45:14 lol 01:52:28 GabeW (~gwachob@12-236-92-153.client.attbi.com) has joined #swhack 01:54:48 .seen AaronSw 01:54:48 AaronSw seen in #swhack saying: [ lol ] ~ 9 min(s) 33 sec(s) ago 01:54:57 .seen zero1za 01:54:57 GabeW: no match found: zero1za 01:55:04 hm? 01:55:08 sorry 01:55:36 playing with .xena 01:56:04 ah 02:00:58 AaronSw it segfaulted for a new style class when you tried access __dict__ ?? 02:01:18 no.. when i tried to access self[i] 02:01:32 but of course that was in the function which define self[i]... 02:01:52 what do I use for a list? self.__list__? 02:02:18 not sure, i'm still using 2.1 b/c of zope 02:02:33 AttributeError: 'Finger' object has no attribute '__list__' 02:04:13 my test class... 02:04:15 >>> class foo(list): 02:04:15 ... def test(self, method): return method(self) 02:06:01 no idea. 02:06:13 does that work? 02:07:28 AaronSw: __dict__: http://python.org/doc/lib/specialattrs.html 02:07:29 my test class works, but i'm not sure how to access the list's data structures without using its methods 02:07:50 deltab, cool. thanks 02:07:58 dict is empty. 02:08:01 so __dict__[1]? 02:08:15 how is that different from __getitem__[1] 02:08:19 that works 02:08:43 if you use the sequence/list methods to access the internal data structures 02:08:53 __dict__ contains attributes 02:09:03 new style classes... 02:09:18 not items 02:09:27 ahh.. 02:09:36 a.b vs. a['b'] 02:11:21 oh. i want the item 02:11:44 you can use __getitem__[index_num] 02:15:08 this works 02:15:10 >>> class foo(list): 02:15:10 ... def __getitem__(self, i): 02:15:10 ... print 'hi' 02:15:10 ... return list.__getitem__(self,i) 02:15:28 hmm, isn't that cheating? :) 02:15:57 you can worry about elegance ;) i'd rather move on ;) 02:16:46 hmm, there's no hasitem? 02:17:39 its a list, you can check the length and determine if the index is out of range. 02:18:17 __len__() 02:18:30 or more elegantly perhaps len(self) 02:18:43 hmm, i suppose i can 02:19:04 so: if len(self) < i: return list.__getitem__[i] 02:19:43 why bother, the __getitem__ will do the checking for you and (and more besides) you're reduplicating. 02:20:01 because if it doesn't have it i want to return a default value 02:21:12 you would need to check thats its also an integer, or to fudge try: self.__getitem__(i) except: return default 02:21:37 which needs some fine tuning of that catch. 02:22:01 ah, good idea 02:22:06 except IndexError: return default 02:22:38 aghh.. needs a return too ;) 02:22:58 hazmat: you can have an independent 2.2 - just make altinstall 02:23:17 cool, seems to work 02:23:20 deltab: i already have an independent 2.2, i just don't have time to play with it cause i'm doing zope work. 02:23:22 def __getitem__(self, i): 02:23:22 try: return list.__getitem__(self, i) 02:23:22 except IndexError: return None 02:23:36 thanks 02:23:43 np 02:24:51 although i suppose i should start getting ready for the z3 sprint... sigh.. to much to do. 02:25:02 sprint? 02:25:40 .google zope sprint 02:25:41 zope sprint: http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/SprintSchedule 02:26:22 cool: 02:26:23 Jan 31-Feb 2 The potential topics for this sprint includes package management. Participants include Casey Duncan, Steve Alexander, and Kapil Thangavelu. 02:26:28 A sprint is a multi-day session of intense Zope3 development organized around extreme programming (XP) ideas such as pair programming. 02:26:35 sounds like esp0rgy 02:34:06 Another requirement for my weblog software: I want Swhack to flow in via a sidebar. 02:35:10 a moz sidebar? 02:36:02 heh, heh: """They're trying to reinstate the draft!""" - http://radio.weblogs.com/0100663/2002/01/22.html#a52 02:36:26 no, a CSS sidebar 02:36:54 css sidebar? 02:37:09 yeah, just a little colored strip running down the side of the webpage 02:37:16 i.e. a real sidebar 02:37:33 right - html with css formatting (html gen'd dynamically, but on the server side) 02:37:34 I thought maybe I could have some commentary too, but shortened to: 02:37:34 * Header 02:37:34 A: I think this rocks 02:37:35 S: It sucks! 02:37:35 A: What do you mean? 02:37:42 GabeW, yep 02:38:15 my daughter is saying "hi" and pointing at things she's interested in - so cool 02:38:30 cool! hi there! 02:38:43 Aaron: you're doing what now? 02:38:47 she's not pointing at you, but she can now press individual keys on the keyboard 02:38:53 * sbp waves to Gabe's daughter 02:39:14 I see you've stopped calling her GabeW Jr. 02:39:26 i appreciate that 02:39:31 heh, the author has a rather appropriate name: http://www.sciam.com/explorations/2002/012102aibo/ 02:39:38 who, me? 02:39:46 yeah 02:39:52 She does have a name, you know. 02:40:47 rats. I should have kept up the misplaced monkierism 02:41:50 heh, heh: "license to kvetch" - http://radio.weblogs.com/0001189/2002/01/23.html#a211 02:42:04 Radio URIs are so boring 02:44:30 It's worrying when people need maths degrees just to interpret their grades: """I just figured out, that with my rough 83-85 average in History, I can go down as low as a 65 and as high as a 115.5 without moving my grade from a B. Time to stop worrying.""" - http://radio.weblogs.com/0001189/2002/01/23.html#a215 02:44:45 Heh. 02:44:55 I had funny explaining this to people before finals in my last year at school. 02:45:15 They'd all come up to me and I'd punch in their grades on my calculator. 02:46:25 I almost convinced a couple to write "BE A HERO, TAKE A ZERO" on their paper with me. 02:47:02 the teacher wrote back: "don't start the morning without coffee" or something like that. 02:47:57 ->#plex 02:53:11 wmf (wesf@cs242733-11.austin.rr.com) has joined #swhack 02:53:31 swhack! 02:53:51 go swhack yourself 02:53:51 swack! 02:54:11 wmf! 02:54:23 I see you finally posted your bit about IDL. 02:54:34 huh? 02:54:52 the thing about aete resources. 02:54:59 why "finally"? 02:55:14 because you were telling us about it back at WWDC as I recall. 02:55:24 oh, I don't remember that 02:57:15 heh, we got jeremiah on IRC./ 02:57:30 we need him in here 02:57:45 soon, my fiend 02:57:48 err friend ;) 02:57:56 lol 02:58:00 fiend is appropriate, no? 02:58:21 yeah, but he's not my fiend 02:58:31 for inviting J into swhack? 02:58:46 but all the cool people hang out here, plus wmf 02:59:02 No, J should be here. 02:59:05 only the big J is missing. And WL 02:59:45 and Morby 03:01:11 Haiku for the day: Kettles are quite nice | They boil up my water | For making some tea 03:02:19 perhaps not particularly profound, but pretty perculiar 03:03:15 Does anybody know what song "Nobody's Fault But Mine" is alledgedly based upon? 03:04:13 What does the .NET CLR have to do with Microsoft's "XML web services platform"? 03:04:36 GabeW2 (~gwachob@12-236-92-153.client.attbi.com) has joined #swhack 03:04:41 nothing 03:04:43 GabeW has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:05:00 Ah, ok then. 03:05:37 except I guess some of their XML web services stuff is written in IL 03:05:39 uh, it was by Blind Willie Johnson originally, it seems. You guys are useless 03:06:02 what are we, your own personal google-bitches? 03:06:25 that's xena's job 03:07:09 looks like I won't lose to /. in this year's bloggies 03:07:13 I had expected the level of incedental knowledge on this channels patriarchs to be higher, but clearly I was misinformed 03:07:45 you're not nominated in the bloggies, so you've already lost. 03:07:48 well we know how to spell 'incidental' 03:08:18 I forgot to nominate myself 03:09:20 what category were you supposed to be nominated in? 03:09:27 best design? 03:09:55 heh 03:10:01 seriously now... 03:10:04 i think you beat /. hands down 03:10:06 deltab: blargh :-) 03:10:06 in deisgn 03:10:09 err design 03:10:50 is it just me or does http://wiltgen.net/articles/dotnet/ say it's about XML web services and then completely ignore XML and web services. 03:11:22 I think I'll vote for bluishorange; Allison is quite well-designed 03:11:34 that just goes to show you how good MS is at confusing people 03:12:54 indeed. i heard someone at p2pcon say that MS was only pushing SOAP because they wanted to confuse other people into using something sucky, while they really used REST and blew everyone away. 03:13:29 hailstorm has settled the REST/RPC question: they're using REST-over-SOAP :-) 03:13:56 yeah, that was funny 03:16:57 i wonder if rillian would mind if i linked to http://snow.thaumas.net/~giles/SSRN_ID294828_code020114590.pdf 03:17:08 * sbp collects some more musical history 03:17:36 you must have a pretty big box for all of it 03:18:04 geez, people still use the word "cyberian"? 03:18:17 who? 03:18:43 it's in the title of that PDF you just mentioned 03:19:00 hmm, i didn't notice that. 03:19:07 i thought he called them virtual worlds 03:23:14 GabeW2 has quit ("Client Exiting") 03:25:03 wmf, have you gotten Zope's WebDAV to work with MacOS X? 03:25:22 nope 03:25:40 no one has ever explained to me how to mount a webdav share in OS X 03:26:14 click the desktop and hit Command-K 03:27:09 either I'm typing the wrong thing or it just doesn't work with Zope 03:27:35 yeah, that was my conclusion too, but I have vague memories of getting it to work with zope in 10.0 03:27:58 (of course I got my first-ever kernel panic when trying to save something onto the server...) 03:28:52 my only kernel panic was running Radio 7 under Classic 03:29:08 heh 03:29:38 I wish Mark would carbonize Tinderbox (neé Ceres) 03:30:36 I should contribute a blurb saying "Tinderbox is Radio UserLand developed by hypertext geeks." or something like that. 03:31:03 tinderbox? 03:31:20 It's Eastgate's weblogging tool 03:31:29 URL? 03:31:40 .google eastgate peekhole 03:31:41 eastgate peekhole: http://www.eastgate.com/Development 03:50:40 .google Traffic band members 03:50:41 Traffic band members: http://members.tripod.com/~Buffalo_Springfield 03:50:52 Hmm... 03:55:08 Winwood, of course... 03:55:29 ah: """The key elements were Steve Winwood's wailing, bluesy vocals, Jim Capaldi's gritty songwriting and drumming, and Chris Wood's sinuous flute and sax playing""" - http://www.warr.org/traffic.html 03:56:08 ooh, bigger line-up: """Lineup: Jim Capaldi (drums, percussion, some vocals); Dave Mason (guitar, vocals, some bass, sitar, etc.); Steve Winwood (lead vocals, keyboards, some guitar, bass); Chris Wood (flute, sax, some keyboards). Mason quit, 1969. Jim Gordon (drums), Rick Grech (bass) and Rebop Kwaku Baah (percussion) added, 1971. Gordon and Grech replaced by Roger Hawkins (drums) and David Hood (bass), 1972. Rebop and Hawkins dropped, Hood replaced by Rosco Gee, 03:56:11 """ - ibid. 03:56:39 Dave Mason - I'm sure I've heard of him 04:19:05 sjbrown: why are you wrapping data in a tuple? 04:19:42 .heh, wrong channel 04:19:43 oops 04:23:08 Hmm, this error makes no sense to me: 04:23:11 self.finger = Finger(self) 04:23:11 TypeError: iteration over non-sequence 04:23:36 what is Finger? 04:23:53 it's a subclass of list 04:24:02 BenSw (~yoda@12-249-96-16.client.attbi.com) has joined #swhack 04:26:48 any ideas, deltab? 04:27:48 Hello 04:28:16 Hi 04:28:42 hmm, i guess it doesn't like me overriding init like that. i guess i'll go back to UserList 04:29:31 aha! 04:29:54 it's the new-style class __init__ rules i guess 04:31:34 that's pretty annoying. 04:33:17 aha! I mispelled __init__ 04:49:45 rillian (~giles@mist.thaumas.net) has joined #swhack 04:49:55 hey rillian 04:50:03 AaronSw: the LoginWindow plugin works great 04:50:09 cool 04:50:21 btw, do you mind if i point to your PDF mirror of the Everquest study? 05:02:10 go right ahead 05:02:16 er, that's not a permanent url 05:02:29 but if it's not for archive purposes, go ahead 05:09:18 wmf has quit ("if this is your first night") 05:24:00 BenSw is now known as BenSw|bed 05:36:26 skotadi (spencer@io.wwmg.com) has joined #swhack 05:37:03 hello 05:37:18 Hey. 05:37:50 and what brings you here? 05:38:40 I was looking for an IRC channel for Advogato, and found a reference to this channel. So I came. 05:38:51 neat. 05:38:53 Not that I think this is one. Heh. 05:39:07 Heh. it'd be sort of interesting. 05:39:16 raph visited this channel once. ;) 05:43:42 jeremiah (~jeremiah@ip68-10-30-131.hr.hr.cox.net) has joined #swhack 05:43:45 hello 05:43:48 hey there 05:44:01 sorry about that, i have a habit to wander offtopic 05:44:09 sbp, he fell for the old "off-topic channel" trick :) 05:44:16 heh, it seems to be IRC nature 05:44:58 so my Dad was rather into computers, and he got me an original Mac when i was real young. 05:45:07 (btw, original Mac was introduced today in 1984) 05:45:23 how old are you? 05:45:27 so i've been playing with them ever since. he had a very early net connection, back before Mosaic. 05:45:33 wow 05:45:33 i'm 15 05:45:50 (about pre-mosaic, not your age) 05:45:54 heh 05:46:00 you're the first intelligent person I've met that's younger than me 05:46:09 well, that sounded mean 05:46:10 heh, heh! 05:46:32 not towards you, but towards everyone else i know 05:46:51 yeah 05:46:56 yeah, i have these vague memories of seeing big ASCII-art ads for Mosaic. 05:47:14 We had an m68k mac in like 94 maybe, we had a IIgs but I wasn't allowed to touch it 05:47:45 first computer I could expiriment with was my own, it was a PC, got that in 98, and then got into Linux in june of 99, so i guess I'm a relative newcomer 05:48:09 interesting. 05:48:17 I think the important thing is understanding enough about what's going on to understand how much it sucks and you could make it better 05:48:33 plex looks much more interesting now that I think of it as pure information, not as a filesharing program 05:48:38 yeah, i find that sort of stuff really useful. 05:48:56 like i red Ted Nelson's "Future of Information" that really blew me away. I realized how everything we use sucks so much. 05:49:12 I've been reading book by Tog about interface 05:49:16 and books by Raskin 05:49:50 yeah, they're good, but still small compared to folks like Nelson and Gelernter, IMO 05:49:51 my reading list is so massive it's sickening, I need to start setting aside 2 hours a day to just read, no news-browsing or anything 05:50:07 * jeremiah wants to remind you that he has no idea who those two people are 05:50:25 Ted Nelson coined the term "Hypertext". 05:50:28 wow 05:50:40 yeah, he's quite a guy. 05:50:54 he's got some great quotes 05:51:02 huh, just looked it up with dict 05:51:15 "Trying to fix HTML is like grafting arms and legs onto hamburger." 05:51:29 so is he the guy that worked at PARC? 05:51:52 No... perhaps you're thinking of Douglas Englebart... 05:52:10 well I remember reading about a demo in the 60's of a webbrowser-ish thing at parc 05:52:10 he invented hypertext and the mouse and things like that. 05:52:14 yeah 05:52:24 Yeah. 05:52:33 I wish my grandmother was still around 05:52:42 she worked at Bell in the 60's and 70's 05:52:45 Wow. 05:52:47 I was extremely lucky -- at one of the RDF conferences I went to both Englebart and Nelson were there. 05:52:48 I'd like to pick her mind 05:53:05 what'd she do at Bell? 05:53:18 fortran for switches apparently 05:53:28 but I have a fantasy she knew k&r 05:53:41 heh 05:54:37 how did you get involved with the w3c? 05:54:43 http://blogspace.com/pictures/photo-view?photo_id=4282 05:54:59 heh, yeah 05:55:06 hey deltab 05:55:06 so deltab, are you the deltab that inspired jeremiah? 05:55:23 yeah, remember some little kid asking you a long time ago on #slashdot about a program that found prime numbers 05:56:07 yeah 05:56:10 that was me 05:56:29 how i got involved with the W3C: http://logicerror.com/myStory 05:56:37 I suppose there aren't too many people floating around with the handle deltab 05:56:53 that's why I chose it 05:56:57 yeah 05:57:04 I chose jeremiah because I'm not creative 05:57:22 i always wondered where it came from. is it from del + tab keys? 05:57:34 DeltaB? 05:57:39 i chose after a friend's license plate ;) 05:57:50 I like both of those 05:58:07 i've always been of the opinion that rates of acquisition were more 05:58:07 important that total knowledge 05:58:23 makes sense 05:58:40 interesting story, aaron 05:58:41 esp. with knowledge constant evolving and changing. 05:59:22 i had interesting discussion with someone that worked at sun about the economics of information from a learning pov. 05:59:32 speaking of aggregators, i was thinking of writing a nice GUI one on top of mozilla, but I think it can wait 05:59:42 * hazmat is way sleep deprived... 05:59:54 I'd need expirience working on a project with other people 05:59:58 jeremiah: did you understand why you don't have to search for factors past the square root? 06:00:11 deltab: the sieve of eratosthenes? 06:00:13 lol 06:00:21 that too 06:00:57 but no, I don't know if I understood that concept before I wrote the program 06:01:16 most of my better understanding of math was a result of my programing, not the other way around 06:01:25 and that was one of my first programs 06:01:33 good 06:02:17 programming's a good way to get to understand things 06:02:21 yeah 06:02:26 skotadi has left #swhack 06:02:48 * jeremiah needs to download that tarball and read the code to this thing 06:02:48 deltab could also mean DELete from TABle: http://adamo.web.cern.ch/Adamo/refmanual/Section-4-2-4.html 06:02:52 not only do you have to understand them in a fuzzy human way, you also have to understand it enough to teach it to a computer 06:03:02 deltab: that's a great concept 06:03:19 jeremiah, the code is pretty sucky right now 06:03:33 AaronSw: all code is sucky 06:03:39 true. 06:03:54 i'm working on PyChord tonight. 06:04:22 I'm looking back at this project that I worked on for a company, that went from being like a simple simple content management system to a huge one, and I just read a great column by joel about 'refactoring code', but I just don't want to, i have this desire to scrap it, I mean the code is just icky 06:04:38 I need to overcome that desire 06:04:47 i disagree with joel on that. 06:05:02 I think what most people don't understand is that Joel is crazy. 06:05:24 hmm 06:05:38 well, the thing is I think joel has some great ideas, but I don't find any of his code useful 06:05:46 which is probably one of the same things about me 06:05:52 Heh. 06:06:01 I don't like how he completely dissed all the open standards with citydesk 06:06:15 Joel is like a mini-Philip in many respects. 06:06:23 who's Philip? 06:06:32 Philip Greenspun 06:06:35 .google philip greenspun 06:06:36 philip greenspun: http://philip.greenspun.com 06:07:06 the original name for Fog Creek was even PaxDigita. 06:07:10 hmm 06:07:24 greenspun looks like that guy from friends 06:07:42 * jeremiah promises that's the stupidest comment he'll make all night 06:08:08 I remember somethign about PaxDigita 06:08:09 whoa, philip is learning to fly 06:08:25 so could I equate greenspun to metcalfe? 06:08:35 (since a lot of people concider metcalfe full of shit too) 06:08:50 greenspun's a great guy 06:08:55 oh 06:09:06 heh 06:09:15 I think I read your comments about joel on the wrong way 06:10:14 my point about joel can be summed up by this diagram: 06:10:14 joel 06:10:41 that didn't help really 06:10:47