IRC log of swhack on 2002-01-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

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01:01:22 [AaronSw]
hm, if i subclass a type, how do I get at its data?
01:03:00 [sbp]
get at its data?
01:03:05 [AaronSw]
yeah
01:03:27 [AaronSw]
i guess you just examine self. hm
01:03:27 [sbp]
how so?
01:03:37 [sbp]
I mean, it'll inherit
01:03:46 [sbp]
you can use __dict__ or something
01:03:58 [AaronSw]
no, it's just dict
01:04:18 [AaronSw]
that's funky
01:07:54 [AaronSw]
Heh, I tried that and it segfaulted.
01:08:04 [AaronSw]
def __getitem__(self, i):
01:08:04 [AaronSw]
if self[i]: return self[i]
01:08:04 [AaronSw]
else: return None
01:10:07 [sbp]
self[i]? ew...
01:10:49 [sbp]
try "for key in self.__dict__.keys(): getattr(self, key)"
01:10:57 [sbp]
or something like that
01:12:29 [sbp]
er... return getattr[...], that is
01:44:24 [sbp]
heh, heh: http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert20365619020122.gif
01:44:46 [AaronSw]
pfft, that won't work
01:45:14 [AaronSw]
lol
01:52:28 [GabeW]
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01:54:48 [GabeW]
.seen AaronSw
01:54:48 [xena]
AaronSw seen in #swhack saying: [ lol ] ~ 9 min(s) 33 sec(s) ago
01:54:57 [GabeW]
.seen zero1za
01:54:57 [xena]
GabeW: no match found: zero1za
01:55:04 [AaronSw]
hm?
01:55:08 [GabeW]
sorry
01:55:36 [GabeW]
playing with .xena
01:56:04 [AaronSw]
ah
02:00:58 [hazmat]
AaronSw it segfaulted for a new style class when you tried access __dict__ ??
02:01:18 [AaronSw]
no.. when i tried to access self[i]
02:01:32 [AaronSw]
but of course that was in the function which define self[i]...
02:01:52 [AaronSw]
what do I use for a list? self.__list__?
02:02:18 [hazmat]
not sure, i'm still using 2.1 b/c of zope
02:02:33 [AaronSw]
AttributeError: 'Finger' object has no attribute '__list__'
02:04:13 [hazmat]
my test class...
02:04:15 [hazmat]
>>> class foo(list):
02:04:15 [hazmat]
... def test(self, method): return method(self)
02:06:01 [hazmat]
no idea.
02:06:13 [GabeW]
does that work?
02:07:28 [deltab]
AaronSw: __dict__: http://python.org/doc/lib/specialattrs.html
02:07:29 [hazmat]
my test class works, but i'm not sure how to access the list's data structures without using its methods
02:07:50 [AaronSw]
deltab, cool. thanks
02:07:58 [hazmat]
dict is empty.
02:08:01 [AaronSw]
so __dict__[1]?
02:08:15 [hazmat]
how is that different from __getitem__[1]
02:08:19 [hazmat]
that works
02:08:43 [hazmat]
if you use the sequence/list methods to access the internal data structures
02:08:53 [deltab]
__dict__ contains attributes
02:09:03 [hazmat]
new style classes...
02:09:18 [deltab]
not items
02:09:27 [hazmat]
ahh..
02:09:36 [deltab]
a.b vs. a['b']
02:11:21 [AaronSw]
oh. i want the item
02:11:44 [hazmat]
you can use __getitem__[index_num]
02:15:08 [hazmat]
this works
02:15:10 [hazmat]
>>> class foo(list):
02:15:10 [hazmat]
... def __getitem__(self, i):
02:15:10 [hazmat]
... print 'hi'
02:15:10 [hazmat]
... return list.__getitem__(self,i)
02:15:28 [AaronSw]
hmm, isn't that cheating? :)
02:15:57 [hazmat]
you can worry about elegance ;) i'd rather move on ;)
02:16:46 [AaronSw]
hmm, there's no hasitem?
02:17:39 [hazmat]
its a list, you can check the length and determine if the index is out of range.
02:18:17 [hazmat]
__len__()
02:18:30 [hazmat]
or more elegantly perhaps len(self)
02:18:43 [AaronSw]
hmm, i suppose i can
02:19:04 [AaronSw]
so: if len(self) < i: return list.__getitem__[i]
02:19:43 [hazmat]
why bother, the __getitem__ will do the checking for you and (and more besides) you're reduplicating.
02:20:01 [AaronSw]
because if it doesn't have it i want to return a default value
02:21:12 [hazmat]
you would need to check thats its also an integer, or to fudge try: self.__getitem__(i) except: return default
02:21:37 [hazmat]
which needs some fine tuning of that catch.
02:22:01 [AaronSw]
ah, good idea
02:22:06 [hazmat]
except IndexError: return default
02:22:38 [hazmat]
aghh.. needs a return too ;)
02:22:58 [deltab]
hazmat: you can have an independent 2.2 - just make altinstall
02:23:17 [AaronSw]
cool, seems to work
02:23:20 [hazmat]
deltab: i already have an independent 2.2, i just don't have time to play with it cause i'm doing zope work.
02:23:22 [AaronSw]
def __getitem__(self, i):
02:23:22 [AaronSw]
try: return list.__getitem__(self, i)
02:23:22 [AaronSw]
except IndexError: return None
02:23:36 [AaronSw]
thanks
02:23:43 [hazmat]
np
02:24:51 [hazmat]
although i suppose i should start getting ready for the z3 sprint... sigh.. to much to do.
02:25:02 [AaronSw]
sprint?
02:25:40 [AaronSw]
.google zope sprint
02:25:41 [xena]
zope sprint: http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/SprintSchedule
02:26:22 [AaronSw]
cool:
02:26:23 [AaronSw]
Jan 31-Feb 2 The potential topics for this sprint includes package management. Participants include Casey Duncan, Steve Alexander, and Kapil Thangavelu.
02:26:28 [AaronSw]
A sprint is a multi-day session of intense Zope3 development organized around extreme programming (XP) ideas such as pair programming.
02:26:35 [AaronSw]
sounds like esp0rgy
02:34:06 [AaronSw]
Another requirement for my weblog software: I want Swhack to flow in via a sidebar.
02:35:10 [hazmat]
a moz sidebar?
02:36:02 [sbp]
heh, heh: """They're trying to reinstate the draft!""" - http://radio.weblogs.com/0100663/2002/01/22.html#a52
02:36:26 [AaronSw]
no, a CSS sidebar
02:36:54 [GabeW]
css sidebar?
02:37:09 [AaronSw]
yeah, just a little colored strip running down the side of the webpage
02:37:16 [sbp]
i.e. a real sidebar
02:37:33 [GabeW]
right - html with css formatting (html gen'd dynamically, but on the server side)
02:37:34 [AaronSw]
I thought maybe I could have some commentary too, but shortened to:
02:37:34 [AaronSw]
* Header
02:37:34 [AaronSw]
A: I think this rocks
02:37:35 [AaronSw]
S: It sucks!
02:37:35 [AaronSw]
A: What do you mean?
02:37:42 [AaronSw]
GabeW, yep
02:38:15 [GabeW]
my daughter is saying "hi" and pointing at things she's interested in - so cool
02:38:30 [AaronSw]
cool! hi there!
02:38:43 [sbp]
Aaron: you're doing what now?
02:38:47 [GabeW]
she's not pointing at you, but she can now press individual keys on the keyboard
02:38:53 [sbp]
* sbp waves to Gabe's daughter
02:39:14 [AaronSw]
I see you've stopped calling her GabeW Jr.
02:39:26 [GabeW]
i appreciate that
02:39:31 [sbp]
heh, the author has a rather appropriate name: http://www.sciam.com/explorations/2002/012102aibo/
02:39:38 [sbp]
who, me?
02:39:46 [AaronSw]
yeah
02:39:52 [AaronSw]
She does have a name, you know.
02:40:47 [sbp]
rats. I should have kept up the misplaced monkierism
02:41:50 [sbp]
heh, heh: "license to kvetch" - http://radio.weblogs.com/0001189/2002/01/23.html#a211
02:42:04 [AaronSw]
Radio URIs are so boring
02:44:30 [sbp]
It's worrying when people need maths degrees just to interpret their grades: """I just figured out, that with my rough 83-85 average in History, I can go down as low as a 65 and as high as a 115.5 without moving my grade from a B. Time to stop worrying.""" - http://radio.weblogs.com/0001189/2002/01/23.html#a215
02:44:45 [AaronSw]
Heh.
02:44:55 [AaronSw]
I had funny explaining this to people before finals in my last year at school.
02:45:15 [AaronSw]
They'd all come up to me and I'd punch in their grades on my calculator.
02:46:25 [AaronSw]
I almost convinced a couple to write "BE A HERO, TAKE A ZERO" on their paper with me.
02:47:02 [AaronSw]
the teacher wrote back: "don't start the morning without coffee" or something like that.
02:47:57 [AaronSw]
->#plex
02:53:11 [wmf]
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02:53:31 [wmf]
swhack!
02:53:51 [sbp]
go swhack yourself
02:53:51 [GabeW]
swack!
02:54:11 [AaronSw]
wmf!
02:54:23 [AaronSw]
I see you finally posted your bit about IDL.
02:54:34 [wmf]
huh?
02:54:52 [AaronSw]
the thing about aete resources.
02:54:59 [wmf]
why "finally"?
02:55:14 [AaronSw]
because you were telling us about it back at WWDC as I recall.
02:55:24 [wmf]
oh, I don't remember that
02:57:15 [AaronSw]
heh, we got jeremiah on IRC./
02:57:30 [sbp]
we need him in here
02:57:45 [AaronSw]
soon, my fiend
02:57:48 [AaronSw]
err friend ;)
02:57:56 [sbp]
lol
02:58:00 [GabeW]
fiend is appropriate, no?
02:58:21 [AaronSw]
yeah, but he's not my fiend
02:58:31 [sbp]
for inviting J into swhack?
02:58:46 [sbp]
but all the cool people hang out here, plus wmf
02:59:02 [AaronSw]
No, J should be here.
02:59:05 [sbp]
only the big J is missing. And WL
02:59:45 [sbp]
and Morby
03:01:11 [sbp]
Haiku for the day: Kettles are quite nice | They boil up my water | For making some tea
03:02:19 [sbp]
perhaps not particularly profound, but pretty perculiar
03:03:15 [sbp]
Does anybody know what song "Nobody's Fault But Mine" is alledgedly based upon?
03:04:13 [AaronSw]
What does the .NET CLR have to do with Microsoft's "XML web services platform"?
03:04:36 [GabeW2]
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03:04:41 [wmf]
nothing
03:04:43 [GabeW]
GabeW has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
03:05:00 [AaronSw]
Ah, ok then.
03:05:37 [wmf]
except I guess some of their XML web services stuff is written in IL
03:05:39 [sbp]
uh, it was by Blind Willie Johnson originally, it seems. You guys are useless
03:06:02 [wmf]
what are we, your own personal google-bitches?
03:06:25 [AaronSw]
that's xena's job
03:07:09 [wmf]
looks like I won't lose to /. in this year's bloggies
03:07:13 [sbp]
I had expected the level of incedental knowledge on this channels patriarchs to be higher, but clearly I was misinformed
03:07:45 [AaronSw]
you're not nominated in the bloggies, so you've already lost.
03:07:48 [deltab]
well we know how to spell 'incidental'
03:08:18 [wmf]
I forgot to nominate myself
03:09:20 [AaronSw]
what category were you supposed to be nominated in?
03:09:27 [AaronSw]
best design?
03:09:55 [wmf]
heh
03:10:01 [wmf]
seriously now...
03:10:04 [AaronSw]
i think you beat /. hands down
03:10:06 [sbp]
deltab: blargh :-)
03:10:06 [AaronSw]
in deisgn
03:10:09 [AaronSw]
err design
03:10:50 [AaronSw]
is it just me or does http://wiltgen.net/articles/dotnet/ say it's about XML web services and then completely ignore XML and web services.
03:11:22 [wmf]
I think I'll vote for bluishorange; Allison is quite well-designed
03:11:34 [wmf]
that just goes to show you how good MS is at confusing people
03:12:54 [AaronSw]
indeed. i heard someone at p2pcon say that MS was only pushing SOAP because they wanted to confuse other people into using something sucky, while they really used REST and blew everyone away.
03:13:29 [wmf]
hailstorm has settled the REST/RPC question: they're using REST-over-SOAP :-)
03:13:56 [AaronSw]
yeah, that was funny
03:16:57 [AaronSw]
i wonder if rillian would mind if i linked to http://snow.thaumas.net/~giles/SSRN_ID294828_code020114590.pdf
03:17:08 [sbp]
* sbp collects some more musical history
03:17:36 [AaronSw]
you must have a pretty big box for all of it
03:18:04 [wmf]
geez, people still use the word "cyberian"?
03:18:17 [AaronSw]
who?
03:18:43 [wmf]
it's in the title of that PDF you just mentioned
03:19:00 [AaronSw]
hmm, i didn't notice that.
03:19:07 [AaronSw]
i thought he called them virtual worlds
03:23:14 [GabeW2]
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03:25:03 [AaronSw]
wmf, have you gotten Zope's WebDAV to work with MacOS X?
03:25:22 [wmf]
nope
03:25:40 [wmf]
no one has ever explained to me how to mount a webdav share in OS X
03:26:14 [AaronSw]
click the desktop and hit Command-K
03:27:09 [wmf]
either I'm typing the wrong thing or it just doesn't work with Zope
03:27:35 [AaronSw]
yeah, that was my conclusion too, but I have vague memories of getting it to work with zope in 10.0
03:27:58 [AaronSw]
(of course I got my first-ever kernel panic when trying to save something onto the server...)
03:28:52 [wmf]
my only kernel panic was running Radio 7 under Classic
03:29:08 [AaronSw]
heh
03:29:38 [AaronSw]
I wish Mark would carbonize Tinderbox (neé Ceres)
03:30:36 [AaronSw]
I should contribute a blurb saying "Tinderbox is Radio UserLand developed by hypertext geeks." or something like that.
03:31:03 [wmf]
tinderbox?
03:31:20 [AaronSw]
It's Eastgate's weblogging tool
03:31:29 [wmf]
URL?
03:31:40 [AaronSw]
.google eastgate peekhole
03:31:41 [xena]
eastgate peekhole: http://www.eastgate.com/Development
03:50:40 [sbp]
.google Traffic band members
03:50:41 [xena]
Traffic band members: http://members.tripod.com/~Buffalo_Springfield
03:50:52 [sbp]
Hmm...
03:55:08 [sbp]
Winwood, of course...
03:55:29 [sbp]
ah: """The key elements were Steve Winwood's wailing, bluesy vocals, Jim Capaldi's gritty songwriting and drumming, and Chris Wood's sinuous flute and sax playing""" - http://www.warr.org/traffic.html
03:56:08 [sbp]
ooh, bigger line-up: """Lineup: Jim Capaldi (drums, percussion, some vocals); Dave Mason (guitar, vocals, some bass, sitar, etc.); Steve Winwood (lead vocals, keyboards, some guitar, bass); Chris Wood (flute, sax, some keyboards). Mason quit, 1969. Jim Gordon (drums), Rick Grech (bass) and Rebop Kwaku Baah (percussion) added, 1971. Gordon and Grech replaced by Roger Hawkins (drums) and David Hood (bass), 1972. Rebop and Hawkins dropped, Hood replaced by Rosco Gee,
03:56:11 [sbp]
""" - ibid.
03:56:39 [sbp]
Dave Mason - I'm sure I've heard of him
04:19:05 [deltab]
sjbrown: why are you wrapping data in a tuple?
04:19:42 [AaronSw]
.heh, wrong channel
04:19:43 [deltab]
oops
04:23:08 [AaronSw]
Hmm, this error makes no sense to me:
04:23:11 [AaronSw]
self.finger = Finger(self)
04:23:11 [AaronSw]
TypeError: iteration over non-sequence
04:23:36 [deltab]
what is Finger?
04:23:53 [AaronSw]
it's a subclass of list
04:24:02 [BenSw]
BenSw (~yoda@12-249-96-16.client.attbi.com) has joined #swhack
04:26:48 [AaronSw]
any ideas, deltab?
04:27:48 [BenSw]
Hello
04:28:16 [sbp]
Hi
04:28:42 [AaronSw]
hmm, i guess it doesn't like me overriding init like that. i guess i'll go back to UserList
04:29:31 [AaronSw]
aha!
04:29:54 [AaronSw]
it's the new-style class __init__ rules i guess
04:31:34 [AaronSw]
that's pretty annoying.
04:33:17 [AaronSw]
aha! I mispelled __init__
04:49:45 [rillian]
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04:49:55 [AaronSw]
hey rillian
04:50:03 [rillian]
AaronSw: the LoginWindow plugin works great
04:50:09 [AaronSw]
cool
04:50:21 [AaronSw]
btw, do you mind if i point to your PDF mirror of the Everquest study?
05:02:10 [rillian]
go right ahead
05:02:16 [rillian]
er, that's not a permanent url
05:02:29 [rillian]
but if it's not for archive purposes, go ahead
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BenSw is now known as BenSw|bed
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05:37:03 [AaronSw]
hello
05:37:18 [skotadi]
Hey.
05:37:50 [AaronSw]
and what brings you here?
05:38:40 [skotadi]
I was looking for an IRC channel for Advogato, and found a reference to this channel. So I came.
05:38:51 [AaronSw]
neat.
05:38:53 [skotadi]
Not that I think this is one. Heh.
05:39:07 [AaronSw]
Heh. it'd be sort of interesting.
05:39:16 [AaronSw]
raph visited this channel once. ;)
05:43:42 [jeremiah]
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05:43:45 [jeremiah]
hello
05:43:48 [AaronSw]
hey there
05:44:01 [jeremiah]
sorry about that, i have a habit to wander offtopic
05:44:09 [AaronSw]
sbp, he fell for the old "off-topic channel" trick :)
05:44:16 [AaronSw]
heh, it seems to be IRC nature
05:44:58 [AaronSw]
so my Dad was rather into computers, and he got me an original Mac when i was real young.
05:45:07 [AaronSw]
(btw, original Mac was introduced today in 1984)
05:45:23 [jeremiah]
how old are you?
05:45:27 [AaronSw]
so i've been playing with them ever since. he had a very early net connection, back before Mosaic.
05:45:33 [jeremiah]
wow
05:45:33 [AaronSw]
i'm 15
05:45:50 [jeremiah]
(about pre-mosaic, not your age)
05:45:54 [AaronSw]
heh
05:46:00 [jeremiah]
you're the first intelligent person I've met that's younger than me
05:46:09 [jeremiah]
well, that sounded mean
05:46:10 [AaronSw]
heh, heh!
05:46:32 [jeremiah]
not towards you, but towards everyone else i know
05:46:51 [AaronSw]
yeah
05:46:56 [AaronSw]
yeah, i have these vague memories of seeing big ASCII-art ads for Mosaic.
05:47:14 [jeremiah]
We had an m68k mac in like 94 maybe, we had a IIgs but I wasn't allowed to touch it
05:47:45 [jeremiah]
first computer I could expiriment with was my own, it was a PC, got that in 98, and then got into Linux in june of 99, so i guess I'm a relative newcomer
05:48:09 [AaronSw]
interesting.
05:48:17 [jeremiah]
I think the important thing is understanding enough about what's going on to understand how much it sucks and you could make it better
05:48:33 [jeremiah]
plex looks much more interesting now that I think of it as pure information, not as a filesharing program
05:48:38 [AaronSw]
yeah, i find that sort of stuff really useful.
05:48:56 [AaronSw]
like i red Ted Nelson's "Future of Information" that really blew me away. I realized how everything we use sucks so much.
05:49:12 [jeremiah]
I've been reading book by Tog about interface
05:49:16 [jeremiah]
and books by Raskin
05:49:50 [AaronSw]
yeah, they're good, but still small compared to folks like Nelson and Gelernter, IMO
05:49:51 [jeremiah]
my reading list is so massive it's sickening, I need to start setting aside 2 hours a day to just read, no news-browsing or anything
05:50:07 [jeremiah]
* jeremiah wants to remind you that he has no idea who those two people are
05:50:25 [AaronSw]
Ted Nelson coined the term "Hypertext".
05:50:28 [jeremiah]
wow
05:50:40 [AaronSw]
yeah, he's quite a guy.
05:50:54 [AaronSw]
he's got some great quotes
05:51:02 [jeremiah]
huh, just looked it up with dict
05:51:15 [AaronSw]
"Trying to fix HTML is like grafting arms and legs onto hamburger."
05:51:29 [jeremiah]
so is he the guy that worked at PARC?
05:51:52 [AaronSw]
No... perhaps you're thinking of Douglas Englebart...
05:52:10 [jeremiah]
well I remember reading about a demo in the 60's of a webbrowser-ish thing at parc
05:52:10 [AaronSw]
he invented hypertext and the mouse and things like that.
05:52:14 [jeremiah]
yeah
05:52:24 [AaronSw]
Yeah.
05:52:33 [jeremiah]
I wish my grandmother was still around
05:52:42 [jeremiah]
she worked at Bell in the 60's and 70's
05:52:45 [AaronSw]
Wow.
05:52:47 [AaronSw]
I was extremely lucky -- at one of the RDF conferences I went to both Englebart and Nelson were there.
05:52:48 [jeremiah]
I'd like to pick her mind
05:53:05 [AaronSw]
what'd she do at Bell?
05:53:18 [jeremiah]
fortran for switches apparently
05:53:28 [jeremiah]
but I have a fantasy she knew k&r
05:53:41 [AaronSw]
heh
05:54:37 [jeremiah]
how did you get involved with the w3c?
05:54:43 [deltab]
http://blogspace.com/pictures/photo-view?photo_id=4282
05:54:59 [AaronSw]
heh, yeah
05:55:06 [jeremiah]
hey deltab
05:55:06 [AaronSw]
so deltab, are you the deltab that inspired jeremiah?
05:55:23 [jeremiah]
yeah, remember some little kid asking you a long time ago on #slashdot about a program that found prime numbers
05:56:07 [deltab]
yeah
05:56:10 [jeremiah]
that was me
05:56:29 [AaronSw]
how i got involved with the W3C: http://logicerror.com/myStory
05:56:37 [jeremiah]
I suppose there aren't too many people floating around with the handle deltab
05:56:53 [deltab]
that's why I chose it
05:56:57 [jeremiah]
yeah
05:57:04 [jeremiah]
I chose jeremiah because I'm not creative
05:57:22 [AaronSw]
i always wondered where it came from. is it from del + tab keys?
05:57:34 [AaronSw]
DeltaB?
05:57:39 [hazmat]
i chose after a friend's license plate ;)
05:57:50 [deltab]
I like both of those
05:58:07 [hazmat]
i've always been of the opinion that rates of acquisition were more
05:58:07 [hazmat]
important that total knowledge
05:58:23 [AaronSw]
makes sense
05:58:40 [jeremiah]
interesting story, aaron
05:58:41 [hazmat]
esp. with knowledge constant evolving and changing.
05:59:22 [hazmat]
i had interesting discussion with someone that worked at sun about the economics of information from a learning pov.
05:59:32 [jeremiah]
speaking of aggregators, i was thinking of writing a nice GUI one on top of mozilla, but I think it can wait
05:59:42 [hazmat]
* hazmat is way sleep deprived...
05:59:54 [jeremiah]
I'd need expirience working on a project with other people
05:59:58 [deltab]
jeremiah: did you understand why you don't have to search for factors past the square root?
06:00:11 [jeremiah]
deltab: the sieve of eratosthenes?
06:00:13 [AaronSw]
lol
06:00:21 [deltab]
that too
06:00:57 [jeremiah]
but no, I don't know if I understood that concept before I wrote the program
06:01:16 [jeremiah]
most of my better understanding of math was a result of my programing, not the other way around
06:01:25 [jeremiah]
and that was one of my first programs
06:01:33 [deltab]
good
06:02:17 [deltab]
programming's a good way to get to understand things
06:02:21 [jeremiah]
yeah
06:02:26 [skotadi]
skotadi has left #swhack
06:02:48 [jeremiah]
* jeremiah needs to download that tarball and read the code to this thing
06:02:48 [AaronSw]
deltab could also mean DELete from TABle: http://adamo.web.cern.ch/Adamo/refmanual/Section-4-2-4.html
06:02:52 [deltab]
not only do you have to understand them in a fuzzy human way, you also have to understand it enough to teach it to a computer
06:03:02 [jeremiah]
deltab: that's a great concept
06:03:19 [AaronSw]
jeremiah, the code is pretty sucky right now
06:03:33 [jeremiah]
AaronSw: all code is sucky
06:03:39 [AaronSw]
true.
06:03:54 [AaronSw]
i'm working on PyChord tonight.
06:04:22 [jeremiah]
I'm looking back at this project that I worked on for a company, that went from being like a simple simple content management system to a huge one, and I just read a great column by joel about 'refactoring code', but I just don't want to, i have this desire to scrap it, I mean the code is just icky
06:04:38 [jeremiah]
I need to overcome that desire
06:04:47 [AaronSw]
i disagree with joel on that.
06:05:02 [AaronSw]
I think what most people don't understand is that Joel is crazy.
06:05:24 [jeremiah]
hmm
06:05:38 [jeremiah]
well, the thing is I think joel has some great ideas, but I don't find any of his code useful
06:05:46 [jeremiah]
which is probably one of the same things about me
06:05:52 [AaronSw]
Heh.
06:06:01 [jeremiah]
I don't like how he completely dissed all the open standards with citydesk
06:06:15 [AaronSw]
Joel is like a mini-Philip in many respects.
06:06:23 [jeremiah]
who's Philip?
06:06:32 [AaronSw]
Philip Greenspun
06:06:35 [AaronSw]
.google philip greenspun
06:06:36 [xena]
philip greenspun: http://philip.greenspun.com
06:07:06 [AaronSw]
the original name for Fog Creek was even PaxDigita.
06:07:10 [jeremiah]
hmm
06:07:24 [jeremiah]
greenspun looks like that guy from friends
06:07:42 [jeremiah]
* jeremiah promises that's the stupidest comment he'll make all night
06:08:08 [jeremiah]
I remember somethign about PaxDigita
06:08:09 [AaronSw]
whoa, philip is learning to fly
06:08:25 [jeremiah]
so could I equate greenspun to metcalfe?
06:08:35 [jeremiah]
(since a lot of people concider metcalfe full of shit too)
06:08:50 [AaronSw]
greenspun's a great guy
06:08:55 [jeremiah]
oh
06:09:06 [AaronSw]
heh
06:09:15 [jeremiah]
I think I read your comments about joel on the wrong way
06:10:14 [AaronSw]
my point about joel can be summed up by this diagram:
06:10:14 [AaronSw]
joel <practice--------------------------theory>
06:10:41 [jeremiah]
that didn't help really
06:10:47 [AaronSw]
heh
06:10:54 [jeremiah]
unless you're saying he has great ideas that don't work
06:11:05 [rillian]
rillian has quit ("cheers all")
06:11:12 [AaronSw]
his points are true, but if you follow them you get rotten code
06:11:18 [jeremiah]
ah
06:12:00 [AaronSw]
like, there are just times you have to throw out code.
06:12:16 [jeremiah]
I think his ideas deserve more research, but that's probably because I don't like the idea that there are 3 great development environments I could use for a project: Cocoa, Win32 (well, never used it) and Swing, but I still can't write one program and have it run on all three
06:12:32 [jeremiah]
I forgot how that concept relates to joel's ideas
06:12:45 [jeremiah]
yeah, i agree about throwing out code
06:13:04 [jeremiah]
oh, so I like his idea about not always reinventing everything, but I don't think anyone will ever follow it
06:13:27 [AaronSw]
Win32 is a great development environment?
06:13:36 [jeremiah]
well, by great i mean rich
06:13:42 [jeremiah]
as in: it can do a lot of things for me
06:13:51 [jeremiah]
that I don't have to do by myself
06:13:52 [AaronSw]
ah
06:14:07 [jeremiah]
so I have these three environments, that all want to do everything for me
06:14:20 [jeremiah]
but I can't take advantage of any of them and still keep my code sufficiently cross platform
06:14:24 [hazmat]
qt
06:14:28 [jeremiah]
yeah, qt is nice
06:14:34 [hazmat]
win32 has lots of idiosyncracies.
06:14:34 [jeremiah]
I've been messing around with it
06:14:51 [hazmat]
has anyone seen a java pki project based on jboss?
06:15:04 [hazmat]
i know i saw but i can't find it at the moment.
06:15:16 [jeremiah]
I ment to look into jboss
06:15:16 [jeremiah]
but didn't
06:16:52 [hazmat]
ah.. it was a ca http://ejbca.sourceforge.net/
06:23:42 [hazmat]
i think mozilla is another good xp app dev platform/framework. the only problem being its footprint imo.
06:24:39 [jeremiah]
yeah, the program I wanted to build was a news aggregator, so it seemed mozilla would be the wisest choice
06:26:03 [AaronSw]
i hear mozilla's persistent storage is in RDF ;-)
06:26:07 [hazmat]
it is
06:26:14 [hazmat]
rdf is used throughout moz
06:26:40 [jeremiah]
mozilla is really some awesome software
06:26:41 [hazmat]
bookmarks, mail, registries of chrome, etc..
06:26:42 [AaronSw]
The non-existant global RDF conspiracy will snare jeremiah one way or another.
06:26:54 [jeremiah]
I'm happy to hear they're going to offer native widjets
06:27:01 [jeremiah]
s/widjets/widgets
06:27:14 [hazmat]
what? they've always built ontop of native toolkits??
06:27:33 [AaronSw]
not really... they had these funk XP widgets
06:27:34 [jeremiah]
well, they have but it hasn't been controllable that way
06:27:41 [jeremiah]
like if I set a gtk theme
06:27:47 [jeremiah]
it won't affect mozilla, even though it uses gtk widgets
06:28:15 [jeremiah]
but the new "classic" theme in 0.9.8 is supposed to be native widgets, which is of course surprising if it happens because this build (a nightly) isn't showing that at all
06:28:48 [hazmat]
isn't that more because its distributing its own gfx libraries?
06:29:25 [jeremiah]
yes, which is a great idea
06:29:47 [jeremiah]
it seems really nice on linux, it annoys you when you use a mac and you realize how much it clashes with the whole macintosh feel
06:29:54 [hazmat]
its the only way to get past version hell on linux
06:30:20 [jeremiah]
* jeremiah thinks we're on different pages
06:30:53 [hazmat]
probably... i'm drifting into incoherence. sorry. i think i'm going to head into that big lurk mode in the sky now.
06:43:16 [jeremiah]
I think I actuall have people that read my weblog
06:43:27 [jeremiah]
it's creepy
06:43:38 [AaronSw]
heh
06:43:48 [jeremiah]
I got 78 hits today without any signifigant linkage
06:44:02 [jeremiah]
which means people must be using bookmarks
06:44:05 [jeremiah]
or something
06:44:14 [AaronSw]
no, that was just me and dave's radio checking every hour
06:44:21 [jeremiah]
ohh
06:44:21 [AaronSw]
;-)
06:44:28 [jeremiah]
nah...
06:44:36 [jeremiah]
* jeremiah has no clue
06:44:38 [AaronSw]
78 / 24 means 3 people read your site
06:44:41 [AaronSw]
;-)
06:44:47 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw wanders off to DeMorganize the enterprise for a bit
06:44:48 [jeremiah]
I don't think rss.xml triggers the counter
06:44:58 [jeremiah]
actually, it doesn't, because that was from my nedstat counter
06:44:59 [jeremiah]
ah-hah
06:46:09 [jeremiah]
I loved that RDF explanation, btw
06:54:29 [AaronSw]
which one?
06:55:16 [jeremiah]
subject, predicate, object
06:55:20 [jeremiah]
it makes sense now
06:55:23 [AaronSw]
ah
06:55:43 [AaronSw]
yeah, it's hard to know which explanation makes the best sense in advance...
06:56:02 [jeremiah]
well, I thought they were just three random words at first
06:56:17 [jeremiah]
which just confused me
06:58:29 [AaronSw]
ah
06:58:42 [AaronSw]
another way to explain it is to say they're typed links
06:58:54 [AaronSw]
but that got the fellow thinking i was describing the data-type of the link
06:59:14 [jeremiah]
yeah
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14:03:02 [AaronSw]
Jim Hendler: "I even have a pending patent on the worlds fastest and most
14:03:02 [AaronSw]
scalable inference algorithms for inheritance, which is what led me
14:03:02 [AaronSw]
into SHOE and then the Sem Web"
14:03:09 [AaronSw]
I think he should be banned for holding patents.
14:31:34 [AaronSw]
wow, they opened up the network here.
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17:46:31 [sbp]
heh, heh: <hazmat> probably... i'm drifting into incoherence. sorry. i think i'm going to head into that big lurk mode in the sky now.
17:46:43 [sbp]
* sbp catches up on an awful lot of conversation
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18:50:00 [AaronSw]
hello
18:53:25 [hazmat]
hi
18:54:58 [AaronSw]
we had another interesting telecon today.
18:55:21 [AaronSw]
i think we need a Connolly-Stickler Showdown.
18:55:40 [AaronSw]
[cue music] Daaaaatatypes SMACKDOWN!
18:55:52 [hazmat]
;)
18:55:56 [sbp]
heh, heh
21:17:27 [sbp]
* sbp listens to some Fairport Convention
21:18:55 [sbp]
* sbp tries to find the Georgia Turner version of "House Of The Risin' Sun", to little avail
22:49:59 [BenSw|bed]
BenSw|bed is now known as BenSw
22:57:41 [sbp]
Hi Ben
23:01:19 [jeremiah]
hello
23:01:57 [sbp]
Hi there, Jeremiah
23:02:12 [sbp]
I'm glad you found out about the great grades scam :-)
23:02:35 [jeremiah]
huh?
23:04:24 [sbp]
"""I just figured out, that with my rough 83-85 average in History, I can go down as low as a 65 and as high as a 115.5 without moving my grade from a B. Time to stop worrying.""" - http://radio.weblogs.com/0001189/2002/01/23.html#a215
23:04:31 [jeremiah]
aaah, yes
23:04:42 [jeremiah]
yeah that was fun
23:05:16 [sbp]
Aaron found out too, and went around advising people not to bother with their exams
23:05:27 [sbp]
Heh, heh. He's a character
23:05:48 [sbp]
So, what do you think about the Plex? Any reservations? Do you think you'll be able to help with the coding/PR/testing?
23:05:56 [jeremiah]
I think I can help with everything
23:06:02 [jeremiah]
my reservation is you don't explan it very well on the site
23:06:08 [jeremiah]
and... I don't think it'll be good for email specifically
23:06:13 [jeremiah]
I like the idea of using it to locate services
23:06:24 [jeremiah]
you know the website everything2.com? it's a lot like that, I think
23:06:29 [sbp]
yeah, that is a bit of a problem. Aaron and I drafted up an FAQ, but I'm not sure how helpful it is
23:06:30 [jeremiah]
same with logicerror, they seem similar
23:06:49 [sbp]
yeah, I know about that
23:06:59 [sbp]
but the problem with those sites is that they're centralized
23:07:04 [jeremiah]
exactly
23:07:08 [sbp]
in fact, I don't really think that they're a good analogy at all
23:07:19 [jeremiah]
well, I think plex covers a lot more bases
23:07:25 [sbp]
they're not really universal file spaces, just collaborative online projects
23:07:29 [jeremiah]
yeah
23:07:33 [sbp]
yeah, of course...
23:07:43 [jeremiah]
I don't know how well hosting actual files inside the plex will work out
23:07:50 [jeremiah]
I like the idea of using it for URIs though
23:07:56 [sbp]
I'm mainly looking forward to it because hopefully it will relieve some of the burden of publishing
23:08:07 [sbp]
yeah, that's my favioure bit too
23:08:24 [sbp]
like all P2P apps., security is the biggest thing to overcome
23:08:29 [jeremiah]
like: it's hard to decide how much structure you need
23:08:41 [jeremiah]
because you want enough structure so everything isn't crazy and disorganized
23:08:46 [jeremiah]
but you don't want to limit what people can do with it
23:08:52 [sbp]
DoS attacks, flooding the network, etc. Mojo Natoin seems to have the idea right, and I'm sure Aaron will incorporate some of those methodologies
23:09:02 [sbp]
yep. Principle of least power
23:09:14 [sbp]
.google "principle of least power"
23:09:14 [xena]
"principle of least power": http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Principles.html
23:09:19 [jeremiah]
I don't think attacks are going to be that hard
23:09:24 [jeremiah]
to prevent, that is
23:09:27 [AaronSw]
.time cst
23:09:27 [xena]
Jan. 25, 2002 5:11 pm US/Central
23:09:36 [AaronSw]
here it's hash-time! 5:12
23:09:41 [sbp]
yeah. Freenet et al. seem fairly resilient
23:09:48 [sbp]
heh, heh
23:10:13 [jeremiah]
well, I was thinking that google seems pretty resilient too to people getting false authority
23:10:25 [jeremiah]
Unless I create a bunch of websites that link to each other
23:10:33 [jeremiah]
it's hard to rise on google if I'm not a real quality source
23:11:41 [jeremiah]
all my friends (non-nerds) have been asking me for news aggregators recently
23:11:44 [sbp]
I've always wondered how Google copes with Gerald's never-ending spam catching device
23:11:46 [sbp]
Hmm... let's find out
23:11:50 [sbp]
.google "list of email addesses" site:impressive.net
23:11:51 [xena]
no results found.
23:11:54 [sbp]
crud
23:12:14 [sbp]
news aggregation and dynamic content is on the rise... but I think, like many things, it's a bit of a fad
23:12:30 [sbp]
.google spam email site:impressive.net
23:12:30 [xena]
spam email site:impressive.net: http://impressive.net/people/gerald/2000/12/spam-filtering.html
23:13:15 [sbp]
that ain't it. Damnit
23:13:18 [jeremiah]
well, I like the idea of people creating as much content as they take in, but most people create crap content, the only reason radio has such a great community is because it has a community of actually smart people right now
23:13:27 [deltab]
google follows the rules
23:13:38 [deltab]
Disallow: /people/gerald/misc/email-addresses
23:13:54 [jeremiah]
who is gerald?
23:14:08 [sbp]
ah, cheers deltab
23:14:19 [sbp]
Gerald Oskoboiny: http://impressive.net/people/gerald/
23:14:57 [jeremiah]
radio's news aggregator has gotten so nice recently
23:15:07 [jeremiah]
who's the person in here that was working on the radio replacement?
23:15:24 [jeremiah]
maybe it was tav
23:15:32 [sbp]
since the release of R8, you mean?
23:15:44 [jeremiah]
maybe
23:15:49 [jeremiah]
aaron mentioned it
23:15:56 [sbp]
tav was working on f something
23:16:00 [sbp]
erm...
23:16:09 [sbp]
notefi
23:16:20 [jeremiah]
oh
23:16:23 [sbp]
"n something" :-)
23:16:33 [jeremiah]
I had a little blogger-api python program a while ago
23:16:44 [sbp]
is it on the Web?
23:16:52 [jeremiah]
stopped working on it though, I think I realized it was futile to try to replace programs that are already around
23:16:55 [jeremiah]
it might be, one sec
23:17:13 [jeremiah]
data is on a drive that isn't plugged in now
23:17:17 [jeremiah]
I might have uploaded some stuff
23:17:26 [sbp]
yeah, why re-invent the wheel (from a guy who recently wrote a Web browser, text editor...)
23:17:57 [jeremiah]
damn, none of it is uploaded
23:18:08 [sbp]
it's no big deal
23:18:10 [jeremiah]
anyways: I thought about it and decided the software I really wanted wasn't another CMS
23:18:26 [jeremiah]
I hate content management systems, or at least i hate the idea of having to use one in the first place
23:18:39 [sbp]
are you going to stick with R8 when the trial period expires?
23:18:44 [jeremiah]
I paid for it
23:18:55 [sbp]
ah. Fair enough :-)
23:18:57 [jeremiah]
I was on the beta list, and I communicate back and forth with dave enough
23:19:12 [jeremiah]
and the company actually has respect for me and their users, so I just bought it
23:19:17 [sbp]
I think I'm just going to move BIOH - and Aaron is looking around for some other software
23:19:27 [jeremiah]
bioh?
23:19:29 [jeremiah]
never heard of it
23:19:30 [sbp]
yep. There's nothing wrong with buying software if you like it
23:19:41 [sbp]
Bring It On Home
23:19:44 [sbp]
You linked to it :-)
23:19:44 [jeremiah]
oh
23:20:00 [jeremiah]
I thought you said "I am going to move to BIOH" and I thought that ment bioh was aprogram... whoops
23:20:22 [sbp]
No. You're just reading what you want to read
23:20:26 [jeremiah]
yeah
23:20:30 [jeremiah]
my brain has a habit of doing that
23:20:31 [sbp]
Homer: Thanks, I'd love an omlette right about now
23:20:44 [sbp]
yeah. I know someone who does that a lot
23:22:13 [sbp]
J, what kind of P2P software do you normally use for getting arbitrary content (i.e. MP3s)
23:22:19 [jeremiah]
Limewire recently
23:22:25 [sbp]
.google Limewire
23:22:26 [xena]
Limewire: http://www.limewire.com
23:22:27 [jeremiah]
it jumped from sucking to being really really good
23:22:33 [sbp]
I saw that you wrote a piece on that
23:22:57 [sbp]
actually, it was Aaron's critique of your use of the word "pirate" that prompted me to it
23:23:09 [jeremiah]
it's even weirder when in real life I try to tell someone a story, and they say "I read about it on your website"
23:23:23 [sbp]
heh, heh
23:23:34 [sbp]
* sbp avoids talking to people, so doesn't have that problem :-)
23:23:51 [jeremiah]
I have a really big social life for a geek
23:23:56 [sbp]
oh, I remember checking Limewire out, now. I wonder why I didn't get it?
23:24:10 [jeremiah]
it's one of the best java programs I've ever usd
23:24:11 [sbp]
Do you have a geek code block?
23:24:12 [jeremiah]
used*
23:24:19 [jeremiah]
what do you mean?
23:24:22 [sbp]
aha!
23:24:23 [sbp]
question solved
23:24:33 [sbp]
.google "Geek code"
23:24:34 [xena]
"Geek code": http://www.geekcode.com
23:24:43 [sbp]
* sbp doesn't like Java
23:24:45 [jeremiah]
.google geek code block
23:24:45 [xena]
geek code block: http://www.geekcode.com
23:24:57 [jeremiah]
hmm
23:25:41 [sbp]
I don't have a block, BTW
23:26:01 [sbp]
Larry Wall's code is funny: he's one of the only people I know that can use the code for "I am Larry Wall"
23:26:30 [jeremiah]
ohhh
23:26:38 [jeremiah]
I have a blogger code
23:26:40 [jeremiah]
no geek code
23:27:16 [sbp]
pff, that's no good :-)
23:27:46 [sbp]
We should have one of those for Swhack
23:27:47 [sbp]
but we're too lazy/cool, I guess
23:28:21 [AaronSw]
i'm going off-line now. It'd be very cool (hint) (hint) if EGTP was ready for me to integrate with PyChord when I come back tomorrow night.
23:28:25 [AaronSw]
bye
23:28:35 [jeremiah]
I find the interface to your weblog to be very confusing
23:28:35 [jeremiah]
iirc, lemme load it up
23:28:35 [jeremiah]
seeya aaron
23:28:56 [AaronSw]
confusing: hmm. probably not the only one.
23:28:59 [AaronSw]
c'ya
23:33:22 [SeanP]
SeanP (~sean@m806-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack
23:33:42 [SeanP]
Aargh: Aaron, dircproxy's doing that odd-assed thing again
23:33:44 [SeanP]
it keeps throwing me off as soon as I've logged in
23:36:27 [sbp]
sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m806-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com)))
23:36:38 [SeanP]
SeanP is now known as sbp
23:37:03 [sbp]
there - that'll teach it
23:37:35 [SeanP]
SeanP (~sean@63.149.73.20) has joined #swhack
23:38:19 [SeanP]
hello?
23:38:21 [SeanP]
argh
23:38:23 [SeanP]
damn thing
23:38:42 [sbp]
cool, it works... but on a different nickname
23:41:25 [sbp]
sbp has quit ("Homer: 20 dollars? I wanted a peanut!")
23:41:31 [SeanP]
SeanP is now known as sbp