00:00:17 -- 00:00:22 class html_elements_parser(SGMLParser): 00:00:22 def reset(self): 00:00:22 self.pieces = [] 00:00:22 SGMLParser.reset(self) 00:00:22 def unknown_starttag(self, tag, attrs): 00:00:23 self.pieces.append("<%(tag)s>" % locals()) 00:00:25 def unknown_endtag(self, tag): 00:00:27 self.pieces.append("" % locals()) 00:00:29 -- 00:01:31 Hmm... 00:03:09 no, I don't trust it. It doesn't seem to handle comments correctly 00:03:44 that's cos it doesn't handle comments 00:03:57 def handel_comment(self, text): foo 00:03:59 handle 00:04:03 handle_comment(comment) 00:04:14 I mean, that function doesn't handle comments correctly 00:04:25 """For example, the comment "" will cause this method to be called with the argument 'text'.""" 00:05:49 the XML Recommendation clearly states: [15] Comment ::= '' 00:06:55 well, subclass and modify the methods to your heart's content 00:07:03 use that inheritance power! 00:08:06 what about htmlparser ? 00:08:09 the new one? 00:08:21 I might use that 00:08:38 but I'm comfortable with RegExps 00:08:43 the new one's not based on the sgmlparser, and at a guess is more compliant 00:09:23 yeah 00:09:34 * sbp used it for browser.py 00:12:22 000552Z I mean, that function doesn't handle comments correctly 00:12:27 why do you say that? 00:12:33 hmm... are you looking for an html parser? 00:13:34 it thinks that anything that matches r'' is a comment. That's not true - it may be invalid 00:14:10 what function are you referring to? 00:16:27 [[[ 00:16:43 ]]] 00:16:44 * AaronSw waves 00:16:44 [[[ 00:17:41 man, that t3 was fast. 00:18:05 i clicked those links on audiogalaxy and turned around and the songs were done downloading 00:19:14 handle_comment(comment) 00:19:14 This method is called when a comment is encountered. The comment argument is a string containing the text between the "" delimiters, but not the delimiters themselves. For example, the comment "" will cause this method to be called with the argument 'text'. The default method does nothing. 00:19:14 ]]] - Python 2.2 manual, \Doc\lib\module-sgmllib.html 00:19:15 it'd still work if I used it, but I don't want to use a module that thinks that "" is a comment 00:19:17 and the RegExps work rather well, IMO 00:20:26 oh, that's just a bug in the TeX source: 00:20:27 themselves. For example, the comment \samp{} will 00:20:27 cause this method to be called with the argument \code{'text'}. The 00:20:50 -- means en dash to TeX 00:21:01 ah... 00:21:11 and tex2html makes it into hyphen-minus 00:21:32 what we'd do without a genius like deltab around 00:21:42 indeed 00:22:01 * tav sticks tongue out at sbp, so my method is still valid, and is elegant ;p 00:22:25 your method is valid but many pages are not 00:22:26 well, what can I say? I'm just a big RegExp-loving fool 00:22:37 yeah, that's the problem 00:22:37 * AaronSw giggles at deltab's comment 00:23:08 for every problem their is a solution that is elegant, valid and unusable due to the mistakes of others. 00:24:03 that's a really intelligent sounding bunch of lies 00:24:17 heh, yeah. they're called jokes 00:24:27 "Hello. My name is [deleted] and I’m the Customer Service Manager 00:24:28 at Crucial Technology. [...] we want to make sure we fully address all of our customers’ needs." 00:24:28 They could start by learning where commas go. 00:25:22 and apostrophes 00:25:29 ehm, where the commas? 00:25:40 yeah, well that's one place where commas go: not where apostrophes belong. 00:26:13 * deltab sees no commas or apostrophes 00:26:21 WTF are you talking about, Aaron? 00:26:23 what are you on about AaronSw? 00:26:25 heh 00:26:30 hmm? 00:26:45 i reckon he's lost it 00:26:49 I see: "[...] I,m the Customer Service Manager [...] al of our customers, needs" 00:26:59 s/al /all / 00:27:10 heh, we saw different 00:27:14 strange 00:27:15 002605Z "Hello. My name is [deleted] and Im the Customer 00:27:15 We see apostrophies in their proper places. Your client sucks 00:27:27 deltab doesn't seem to have 00:27:29 no, Microsoft sucks 00:27:34 * sbp tries the logs 00:27:35 yeah 00:27:36 deltab: i saw "I'm" 00:27:42 must be windows suckiness 00:27:43 * sbp too 00:27:48 tav: you're using a Microsoft OS 00:28:22 Microsoft employees never learned their grammar. See also: Word's Grammar checker, numerous examples on google. 00:28:32 I guess they think ,s and 's are the same. 00:28:38 tav` didn't see most of what AaronSw pasted 00:28:51 AaronSw: yea 00:28:52 * AaronSw apologizes to the Microsoft employees who do know grammar 00:28:58 sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m171-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com))) 00:29:01 AaronSw: what you pasted included C1 control characters 00:29:03 try spell checking 'esp worldwide ltd' and then grammar checking it 00:29:09 heh 00:29:15 deltab, aha. 00:29:17 sbp (~sean@m171-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 00:30:06 AaronSw: Windows renders them as apostrophes, your software as commas 00:30:31 I believe I've seen some Linux software render them as commas too. 00:30:35 the logs show it correctly: http://blogspace.com/swhack/chatlogs/2002-01-22.txt 00:30:43 or incorrectly 00:31:02 half full/half empty 00:31:13 heh 00:31:23 well sbp and i and the logs see them correctly 00:31:27 obviously AaronSw is wrong 00:31:28 odd... in the logs i see like a backwards ` 00:31:33 * sbp ^5's tav 00:31:45 sbp and tav use Windows, so obviously they're wrong too. 00:31:56 I see 00:31:57 I see an apostrophie, but when I paste it into CygWin, it shows a backwards ` 00:32:06 ? neat 00:32:14 aah, i18n 00:32:19 heh 00:32:33 i hate how irc descends into this 00:32:49 * tav goes back to his todo 00:32:51 i think this only happens with geeks 00:33:20 true 00:33:26 yes, because everyone else uses Windows 00:33:40 http://www.fourmilab.ch/webtools/demoroniser/ 00:33:44 Note how Crucial followed up, and has a site that's a joy to use (most of the time), whereas Dell did not and has a super-sucky site. 00:34:32 speaking of fourmilab, fermilab is quite nearby. good place to go for birthday parties -- kids love atom accelerators 00:34:40 AaronSw: perhaps you could ask them to set their mail client to send only ASCII 00:34:57 At least it wasn't in HTML. 00:35:41 well, thank them for that 00:35:59 people should use text on the Web and HTML in emails. We'd all be... um... so much better off 00:36:14 "Dear [deleted], it appears your mail client, 42B5ACAC.132FCE88.e50eb3888bf3a3330156333d41a337a4, is sending proprietary Microsoft character." 00:36:42 you need an "a" or a plural in there 00:36:54 sending a proprietary Microsoft character/sending proprietary Microsoft characters 00:36:54 What an odd name for a mail client. 00:37:09 Yeah. Why not call it "Fred"? 00:37:20 perhaps they hashed the name or something 00:37:39 no, that's probably the version :-) 00:38:29 AaronSw: where did you get that from? 00:38:43 John: Sue, what version of Microsoft Outlook Express Mail Electronic Sender System are you using? 00:38:44 Sue: Well, I'm using 42B5ACAC.132FCE88.e50eb3888bf3a3330156333d41a337a4, of course. 00:38:44 John: What? You haven't upgraded to 42B5ACAC.132FCE88.e50eb3888bf3a3330166333d41a337a4?! 00:38:45 -- 00:38:50 deltab, the X-Mailer header. 00:40:34 sbp has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00:40:44 sbp (~sean@m171-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 00:40:50 deltab, tidy with the -fix-mshtml-2000 option will do something like what the demoroniser appears to 00:42:45 oops, actually its word-2000: yes 00:43:07 I like how Tidy says: "This looks like HTML proprietary." 00:43:19 :Tidy a :Decrapulator . 00:44:11 I got Bryan Bell to run his designs thru Tidy. I'm quite excited. He wanted to use PNG and CSS, but he says that he's worried about browsers that don't support them. 00:44:22 He also says that Manila won't let him put in ALT tags. 00:44:30 ok, gotta run. dinner 00:46:03 that X-Mailer thing looks like a UUID 00:46:15 the last part 00:46:35 the first parts might be timestamp and IP address 00:48:31 1: "Hey fellas, get on board the Brad fad" 00:48:36 2: "What's that?" 00:48:41 1: "the fad of Brad" 00:48:47 3: "Er... right" 00:49:02 1: "Don't delay!" 00:49:50 water always acts so odd when it's hot 00:53:34 crap! I just remembered that I used to write plays 00:53:46 argh, another supressed memory surfaces 00:54:43 as long as I didn't walk around the stage clapping my hands and going, "come on people", I think I'm in the clear 01:11:45 * sbp rethinks EARL 01:11:54 what are we using it for? 01:13:21 I feel a bit guilty having been in a group that's been working for so long on a language that no-one actually uses yet 01:15:40 * sbp reads http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/2001/10/f2f-notes#tools 01:16:10 the WCAG test case is important 01:29:57 lol! @ the plays 01:30:47 I directed a rendition of famous some poetry thing 01:30:56 I forget the name now, but it was famous, so you should know 01:31:36 I feel a bit guilty having been in a group that's been working for so long on a language that no-one actually uses yet 01:31:36 How do you think RDF Core feels? 01:33:22 Hmm, sometimes I catch myself singing songs from "Stan Freeberg modestly presents The United States Of America" 01:33:39 well, more like humming 01:38:43 * sbp returns 01:39:07 "Aaron Swartz, director" - sounds pretty good 01:39:14 RDF Core: lol! 01:40:32 perhaps if we made EARL non-RDF, it'd start "working" 01:41:31 * sbp is pretty sure that EARL would work, if used for anything... which is why I'm working on that API again 01:46:06 * AaronSw sets up procmail scripts to filter yahoogroups messages 01:46:40 you and your new toy 01:46:50 hee 01:46:55 it's fun 01:52:11 hmm, i see a recommendation of maildrop 01:54:27 this looks useful: http://bdg.centrin.net.id/~budsan02/mailfilter.htm 01:55:25 aaaaargh:- 01:55:25 [[[ 01:55:26 File "earlapi.py", line 73, in test 01:55:26 parser = xml.sax.make_parser() 01:55:26 File "/usr/lib/python2.2/xml/sax/__init__.py", line 93, in make_parser 01:55:26 raise SAXReaderNotAvailable("No parsers found", None) 01:55:28 xml.sax._exceptions.SAXReaderNotAvailable: No parsers found 01:55:30 ]]] 01:55:37 heh, doom! 01:55:38 gah 01:55:49 Notavailable 01:55:53 fink install python2.2-xml # shoulda used debian 01:56:10 lol @ No tav available 01:56:24 ailable 01:56:27 .wn ailable 01:56:34 .dict ailable 01:56:34 http://work.ucsd.edu:5141/cgi-bin/http_webster?ailable 01:56:35 SAX ails tav 01:56:42 i guess it makes his client go beepy 01:56:48 yea 01:56:53 i got a double beep 01:57:01 * tav adds to his ignore list 01:58:23 argh, damn SAX 01:59:04 tav needs to expand his vocabulary. learn new words like: 01:59:05 all' ottava 01:59:06 atavism 01:59:06 atavisms 01:59:06 atavistic 01:59:06 atavistically 01:59:07 Batavia 01:59:09 Batavian 01:59:11 Batavian Republic 01:59:13 centavo 01:59:15 centavos 01:59:21 Civitavecchia 01:59:22 contraoctave 01:59:22 contraoctaves 01:59:23 cowlstaves 01:59:25 four-line octave 01:59:27 great octave 01:59:29 Gustav 01:59:31 Gustavo 01:59:33 Gustavo A Madero, Villa 01:59:35 Gustavus 01:59:37 hantavirus 01:59:39 pentavalent 01:59:41 Poltava 01:59:43 quarterstaves 01:59:46 rotavirus 01:59:47 rotaviruses 01:59:49 Stavanger 01:59:51 stave 01:59:53 staved 01:59:57 stave off 01:59:59 staves 02:00:01 stavesacre 02:00:03 stavesacres 02:00:05 staving 02:00:07 Stavropol' 02:00:09 Tamatave 02:00:11 tavern 02:00:13 taverna 02:00:15 tavernas 02:00:17 taverner 02:00:19 taverners 02:00:21 taverns 02:00:23 tipstaves 02:00:25 Vestavia 02:00:27 Vestavia Hills 02:00:29 Villa Gustavo A Madero 02:00:31 Vltava 02:00:33 -- 02:00:35 courtesy of m-w.com 02:00:52 .wn atavism 02:00:53 atavism defined as: 02:00:54 - n : a reappearance of an earlier characteristic [syn: {reversion}, {throwback}] 02:01:02 a-tav-ism 02:01:43 Heh, that's quite clever, actually. Whenever tav comes up with something that someone has already come up with before, we can just call it a tav ism. 02:01:59 oh man... 02:02:16 as if working with SAX isn't painful enough 02:02:23 * AaronSw giggles 02:02:42 .spell tav 02:02:53 potential spellings for tav are: PTV, TV, TVA, trav, tan, -ative, Tuva, teas, tem, tar, ter, terr, tease 02:03:07 Tuva music is...interesting 02:03:13 yea, i be a real cock tease 02:03:14 tav's an -ative. 02:04:04 hmz 02:05:29 well, it works on Windows, but not on CugWin... argh! 02:05:37 er... CygWin 02:06:41 ugh, I need Python2-xml 02:07:03 SAX: doom and despair in a handy package! 02:07:35 i hate cygwin python 02:07:44 apt-get install python2.2-xml 02:07:54 maybe I should use a DOM package - then people could port it fairly easy 02:07:56 ooh, thanks tav 02:07:58 and activepython22 ;p 02:08:07 $ apt-get install python2.2-xml 02:08:07 bash: apt-get: command not found 02:08:13 hehe 02:08:18 apt-get apt-get 02:08:21 i wonder if they have apt for cygwin. they have it for redhat 02:08:32 they are porting it for windows 02:08:32 .google apt cygwin 02:08:33 apt cygwin: http://lists.debian.org/deity/2000/deity-200003/msg00081.html 02:08:47 Mwahahaha! 02:08:48 [[[ 02:08:48 > Is there a cygwin port of apt done anywhere? 02:08:48 Not as far as I know. 02:08:48 """ 02:08:49 ]]] 02:08:52 """ 02:08:52 .google debian/win 02:08:53 debian/win: http://rocloiso.planet-d.net/larve/images 02:08:56 lol 02:08:59 .google debian/win32 02:09:03 debian/win32: http://lists.debian.org/debian-win32/2001/debian-win32-200111/threads.html 02:09:05 * sbp beat him to it, for a change 02:09:24 .google debian/win32 apt-get 02:09:25 debian/win32 apt-get: http://lists.debian.org/debian-win32/2001/debian-win32-200111/msg00005.html 02:09:59 what package format does cygwin use? RPMs? 02:10:36 tar.gz 02:11:02 * sbp tries getting the tar.gz from http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/pyxml/ 02:11:04 or .exe apparently 02:11:05 ehm 02:11:07 tar.bz2 02:12:19 hmm http://sourceforge.net/projects/debian-cygwin is still in stage 1 02:13:19 sbp: or.... you could use activepython 02:13:34 WTF is activepython? 02:13:41 .google activepython download 02:13:41 for CygWin? 02:13:42 error: [Errno socket error] (111, 'Connection refused') 02:13:44 hmz 02:13:49 .time 02:13:50 error: [Errno socket error] (111, 'Connection refused') 02:15:17 great, well, that didn't work 02:15:20 .time 02:15:21 2002/01/22 02:16:59.4012 Universal 02:15:23 .google activepython download 02:15:24 activepython download: http://www.activestate.com/ActivePerl/download.htm 02:15:28 lol 02:15:31 (installing what's-its-name, that is) 02:15:43 .google activepython download -perl 02:15:44 activepython download -perl: http://www.openrpg.com/download.php 02:15:49 lol 02:15:55 .google activepython 02:15:56 activepython: http://www.activestate.com/Products/ActivePython 02:15:56 tav, it's your lucky day 02:16:01 there! 02:16:34 google sucks as a personalised reputation server 02:16:47 it just doesn't like you 02:17:02 Huh? I have SAX working in Windows Python 2.2; why on earth would I need ActivePython for? 02:17:12 sbp: ah 02:17:19 then use windows python2.2 then 02:17:33 why are you wasting time w/ cygwin ? 02:17:35 more wisdom from the mouth of tav 02:18:13 talk about going around in circles 02:18:24 talk about it! 02:18:26 well? why are using cygwin python? 02:18:43 Because CygWin rocks 02:18:47 cygwin does 02:18:55 but doesn't mean you have to use cygwin python 02:19:31 ooh, you're right! 02:19:34 $ "c:/Program Files/Python22/python.exe" earlapi.py 02:19:34 Sandman #62 found 02:19:47 add it to your path 02:20:09 i can send you my l33t .bash_profile if you want 02:20:50 sandman #62? 02:20:51 please 02:21:15 Yay, I figured out how to use /etc/hosts and NetInfo in OS X. 02:22:40 ooh... do share. i found how to load it, but i have to load it every time i make a change 02:22:54 Oh, well, that was pretty much my discovery: how to load it. 02:22:58 oh 02:23:16 morbus showed me how to do that 02:23:23 Is there a decent reference to NetInfo out there, or am I just blind? 02:23:35 (I'm willing to accept the latter possibility.) 02:23:57 .google macwrite /etc/hosts netinfo 02:23:57 macwrite /etc/hosts netinfo: http://www.macwindows.com/MacOSX.html 02:24:06 .google site:macwrite.com /etc/hosts netinfo 02:24:07 no results found. 02:24:09 hmm 02:24:12 .google site:macwrite.com /etc/hosts 02:24:13 no results found. 02:24:17 .google site:www.macwrite.com /etc/hosts 02:24:18 no results found. 02:24:20 odd 02:24:38 http://tav.espians.com/bash_profile 02:24:53 I finally found a brief mention of /etc/hosts and niload in a PDF at http://www.sjrowe.btinternet.co.uk/docs/macosx-tips.pdf 02:25:42 maybe http://www.apple.com/macosx/server/pdf/UnderstandingUsingNetInfo.pdf 02:26:03 hmm, audiogalaxy is offering a gold version for a "small monthly fee" 02:27:22 Hmm. That's just so clearly named. It can't be it. 02:27:28 heh 02:28:22 here's the note I wrote to myself: 02:28:27 sudo niload -v hosts / < /etc/hosts 02:28:36 sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m3-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com))) 02:28:55 sbp (~sean@m3-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 02:29:56 There... jot that down in me local wiki. 02:31:37 man the tidy debian package is out of date 02:32:13 right, now, what was I doing? Oh yeah, writing an XML parser 02:35:37 rss 1.0 > 0.92 right? 02:35:48 in terms of quality 02:36:04 heh, heh, heh 02:36:09 no, because Aaron worked on it 02:36:47 well, i was hoping for why it's better, besides "its rdf" 02:37:07 better? 02:37:28 depends what you want to do with it 02:37:30 * sbp doesn't know enough about 0.92 to comment 02:38:04 yes 02:38:14 1.0 good 02:38:21 why? 02:38:28 because it's RDF 02:38:36 x10ible 02:38:45 er... x10sible 02:38:48 y 02:39:16 0.92 is easier to parse 02:39:21 hmm 02:39:37 what other benefit is there to it? 02:39:38 hm? 02:39:48 which? 02:39:55 .92 02:40:03 Dave Winer likes it :-) 02:40:21 orchard parse all 02:40:30 no type. hand lotion 02:42:04 ^me 02:43:07 ? 02:43:41 he has lotion on his hands... 02:43:48 I was going to say.. x10ible. Does that mean it drives wireless cameras looking at young girls, and makes your lights blink on and off? 02:43:58 lol 02:44:39 makes billboard pop-up too 03:01:09 giggle: "The FBI agents were nice and really just wanted to know if I knew anyone with access to bio type stuff. I told them that a friend of mine has a cute roomate who studdies biology. They were under-wellmed." 03:01:17 - http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/1/17/191058/297 03:05:06 * sbp tries Expat instead 03:05:17 EFF RSS: http://www.eff.org/news/eff_news.rss 03:07:53 Wooho! Native widgets: http://www.mozillazine.org/talkback.html?article=2127 03:10:04 hmm: http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=64512&action=view 03:10:31 it's purty 03:11:21 rss .93 ? 03:12:59 ugh, enough, enough 03:13:10 just go with 1.0. why are you asking? 03:13:18 wtf is .93 ? 03:13:24 just saw it in the eff one 03:13:31 Umm... so, does Expat allow for subclassing, or what? Doesn't seem to... 03:13:32 it's like 0.92 except with more random tags 03:15:16 ah, no, it does 03:49:23 tansaku has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:50:28 * AaronSw gets dnscache running on vorpal 03:51:39 it's now an ORSC-compatible dns server 03:56:51 fun 04:18:17 sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m21-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com))) 04:18:35 sbp (~sean@m21-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 04:25:23 heh, this EARL API is quite funny 04:25:35 it reads like a story, since I haven't deleted any of the early 04:25:38 early junk 04:25:48 so there's the initial SAX tests, which all failed 04:25:52 then a bit more hacking 04:25:56 then some swearing 04:26:02 then a decision to use Expat 04:26:05 and then the Expat stuff 04:54:12 a tragicomedy 05:14:29 sbp has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05:14:42 sbp (~sean@m35-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 05:15:54 tansaku (~sam@n144-174.tokyu-net.catv.ne.jp) has joined #swhack 05:29:42 Things-Fall-Apart.com will give me $35 to put up a banner ad on my review of "Things Fall Apart". crazy 05:32:40 ooh, do it, do it! 05:32:53 .google "Things Fall Apart" Aaron 05:32:53 "Things Fall Apart" Aaron: http://underwire.blogspot.com 05:33:01 heh 05:34:00 sbp, how do I answer this: "What am I supposed to to with table summaries? I don't have a clue why they are important or even how to notate them. [help]" 05:35:10 summaries? like, captions? 05:35:24 he's responding to a Tidy complaint 05:35:38 do with them: put a little description of what the table does/is/should do, and make sure you style it with CSS, otherwise it'll suck 05:35:54 style it? isn't it an attribute? 05:36:26 .google w3c table summaries 05:36:27 w3c table summaries: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/1998OctDec/0088.html 05:36:35 Hmm... yeah 05:36:52 * sbp was thinking of the caption element - what's that for, then? Pff... 05:37:04 [[[ 05:37:05 summary = text [CS] 05:37:05 This attribute provides a summary of the table's purpose and structure for user agents rendering to non-visual media such as speech and Braille. 05:37:10 ]]] - somewhere in the HTML docs 05:37:18 - http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables#edef-TABLE 05:37:58 and for caption: When present, the CAPTION element's text should describe the nature of the table. 05:38:38 that's... um... well, it's HTML, so not all that surprising 05:39:24 I favor over summary= for i18n, but the semantics in the draft seem to suggest that summary= is more important 05:39:51 * sbp adds it to his huge list of "stuff that sucks in HTML" 05:40:14 Bryan on why he doesn't use CSS: "I don't want to have to leave flip comments for people who don't use Internet Explorer." 05:40:43 as to the difference between purpose and nature: they should have coordinated the vocabulary with the XLink group :-) 05:40:52 aaaah 05:41:32 what are the latest stats on CSS browser usage? 05:41:51 dunno. I try not to think about it too much, because it scares the crap out of me 05:42:23 actually, there aren't a great deal of good stats. places, because they're all so incomplete - surveying just a few browsers 05:42:43 so you can't really take any of them as being close to "the truth" 05:43:03 of course -- they're statistics 05:43:06 plus, there are varying levels of CSS compliance, which makes it even more confusing 05:43:20 58.7% of all statistics are toal lies 05:43:24 er... total 05:43:41 i just need some lies that support my point ;-) 05:43:55 aha 05:44:11 .google CSS browser usage Internet Explorer Netscape 05:44:12 CSS browser usage Internet Explorer Netscape: http://www.yahoo.com/Computers_and_Internet/Software/Internet/World_Wide_Web/Browsers/&e=922 05:44:29 ooh, that was successful 05:44:33 .google CSS browser usage 05:44:34 CSS browser usage: http://www.wiserways.com/web-tech/Presentations/browser.htm 05:45:04 there you go 05:50:49 Gotta run 05:50:56 c'ya 05:50:59 sbp has quit ("Homer: 20 dollars? I wanted a peanut!") 09:41:44 Emberwild has quit () 09:51:42 tansaku has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:52:18 tansaku (~sam@h134-132.tokyu-net.catv.ne.jp) has joined #swhack 14:28:17 tansaku has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:42:52 tansaku (~sam@n144-001.tokyu-net.catv.ne.jp) has joined #swhack 15:04:06 Hmm. I was digging Radio 8, but now I find myself coming back to AmphetaDesk. 15:19:51 hazmat has quit (forward.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 15:19:51 deltab has quit (forward.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 15:19:51 xena has quit (forward.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 15:19:51 tansaku has quit (forward.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 15:20:19 tansaku (~sam@n144-001.tokyu-net.catv.ne.jp) has joined #swhack 15:20:19 deltab (deltab@mewtwo.espnow.com) has joined #swhack 15:20:19 hazmat (~ender@adsl-66-123-57-58.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) has joined #swhack 15:20:19 xena (xena@mewtwo.espnow.com) has joined #swhack 15:20:24 tav has quit (Excess Flood) 15:21:46 tav (tav@host217-34-75-191.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #swhack 16:15:33 sbp (~sean@m762-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 16:21:45 if you are a spammer, please send email to spam@swartzfam.com or junk@swartzfam.com. If you're not, don't send mail there unless you want it to be classified as spam 16:22:21 ooh, they changed http://www.sasked.gov.sk.ca/docs/ela/ela_fold.html so that it now read "phonemic" rather than "phenomic" 16:22:32 heh 16:22:38 a small victory 16:22:57 indeed :-) 16:23:29 Fortune: "If everything is coming your way then you're in the wrong lane." 16:23:37 heh, heh 16:24:43 ooh, spamassassin 2.0 is coming out soon 16:33:52 * sbp listens to the Beach Boys 16:52:06 Hmm... Expat seems to think that "" is a valid XML document 16:52:34 oh, perhaps it's non-well-formedness checking 16:53:05 yep, it seems so 16:53:10 huh? 16:56:57 ah, xml.dom.minidom is better 16:57:47 how do i install a product in zope? 16:58:34 * sbp guesses that that particular question is not aimed at him 16:58:45 i guess i just throw them in lib/python/Products 17:04:23 what kind of a port is 9673? who's going to remember that. 17:04:31 heh, heh 17:04:33 heh. "Congratulations, your Zope is up and running. To view some shameless Zope propaganda, please visit the included QuickStart material." 17:04:42 it'd be alright if it was your PIN number, or something 17:04:48 oops. 17:04:55 so, who forced you at gunpoint to install Zope? 17:04:56 * AaronSw goes to change his PIN number 17:05:01 apt-get 17:05:03 heh, heh 17:05:15 i typed apt-get install python and it downloaded Zope. it's clearly been brainwashed. 17:05:23 heh, yes 17:07:31 it wants the password i gave it when i installed. i never gave it a password. it says if i forgot it's in the access file in the zope directory. there is no such file. 17:07:53 I once tried rewriting Zope in perl. 17:08:06 what happened? 17:08:23 did your computer explode? 17:08:24 Well, it's in a SourceForge project, but I ran out of free time and never picked it up again. 17:08:37 ah 17:08:51 I got pretty far, then started thinking it needed at least a 2/3 rewrite or maybe a re-implementation in Java 17:09:11 OK, so I run their password setting utility on the nonexistant password file. i fill out all the prompts and then I get a Python error: 17:09:11 File "zpasswd.py", line 113, in generate_passwd 17:09:12 return pw 17:09:12 UnboundLocalError: local variable 'pw' referenced before assignment 17:09:35 ugh 17:09:40 I liked the idea of serving up objects by URL, but hated all the things like bobo_modification_time laying around in Zope 17:10:03 most zope programmers hate them to, but they abide. 17:10:20 will they go away in zope3? 17:10:23 I tried to abide, but it kept making me grind my teeth. 17:10:30 ok, so I go to RTFM but all the documentation is in .txt.gz. what's up with that? 17:10:32 you can use the zpublisher part independepntly of zope anyways 17:10:44 that part is what does the url mapping to objects and methods. 17:11:03 for an example checkout some the ZLite package from cvs.ebysarna.com 17:11:12 I need to get away from perl is what I need to do 17:11:20 AaronSw: yes, most of the ugliness will disappear from zope3. 17:11:41 hmm.. bad link 17:11:48 Yup, unknown host. 17:12:24 http://cvs.eby-sarna.com/pylib/ZLite/ 17:12:31 i'm starting to think the compilers of the Debian package hated zope or something 17:13:04 that also includes stuff for the aspect oriented programming project for python, transwarp. 17:13:11 * sbp runs his new AltTag checker over w3.org, and finds that some fail - ooh! 17:13:26 If Zope3 causes me less teeth grinding, I'd be elated. 17:13:29 ah:- 17:13:30 [[[ 17:13:30

src="Icons/right" /> 17:13:31 whats the name of the zope in java project? 17:13:31 ]]] 17:13:42 .google Zope in Java 17:13:43 Zope in Java: http://www.zope.org/Resources/ZSP 17:14:22 zope3 is less magic more explicit, interfaces/unit tests for everything, and a sane design. 17:14:47 OK, so I created my Zope user, but when I go to the management screen it says "You are not authorized to access this resource." 17:15:18 did you give the user the manager role? 17:15:27 how? 17:15:31 i can't log in, remember 17:15:43 shutdown zope. 17:15:50 go to the directory where zope lives 17:15:52 type 17:16:05 python zpasswd.py -u aaronsw -p secret inituser 17:16:08 restart zope 17:16:28 oh, it's called inituser... it said it was called access 17:16:46 hmm, nope - same error 17:16:56 it can be, but that does something slightly different and more annoying imo, or at least it used to. 17:17:19 huh... is this a naked zope or is it being fronted by something else? 17:17:55 it's ZServer being run bu debian 17:18:03 its the debian package? 17:18:07 yeah 17:18:58 than their probably running some sort of wierd packaging scheme.... sigh.. i could walk you through this, but to be honest it would be easier (for both of us) if you grabbed a source version. 17:19:08 heh 17:20:33 i'm not saying anything about .debs and dpkg and friends. just that zope can be setup in a lot of different ways, and that vendors tend to set things up differently depending on their proclivities. 17:20:33 why don't you install a real server instead? 17:21:29 Gregor Hoffleit is responsible for this Debian package. 17:23:13 if you really want to stick with it, you have to track down the start files, check the env vars, figure out where the maintainer setup INSTANCE_HOME and SOFTWARE_HOME and then do the zpasswd thing in the instance home. 17:23:34 alternatively a google search might help 17:23:40 .google debian zope INSTANCE_HOME 17:23:41 debian zope INSTANCE_HOME: http://www.zope.org/Documentation/How-To 17:23:49 .google debian zope INSTANCE_HOME maintainer 17:23:49 debian zope INSTANCE_HOME maintainer: http://lists.zope.org/pipermail/zope/2000-November/120961.html 17:24:07 ;) 17:24:12 hmm: 17:24:16 # If you want to use INSTANCE_HOME, enable the following line 17:24:17 #ZOPECTLOPTS="-I /var/lib/zope-dir" 17:24:50 ugh.. and he's using the zctl script, of which their only half-dozen versions floating around. 17:25:18 ok, ok, i'll get the src 17:25:23 Zope-2.4.3-src.tgz ? 17:25:37 i would just go with 2.5b4 17:25:41 not the x86 binary? 17:25:44 nope 17:26:11 * AaronSw carefully deletes the /view before wgetting 17:26:20 i love glyph's sig quote. 17:26:32 which is? 17:26:47 'you are in a maze of twisted little applications, all remarkably consistent' 17:26:51 sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m340-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com))) 17:27:02 heh 17:27:10 sbp (~sean@m340-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 17:34:13 if i and picky: raise SystemError, i 17:34:14 SystemError: 256 17:34:14 a 17:34:27 does anyone here have a recommendation on how to cook sweet potatoes? 17:34:39 aaronsw what version of python 17:34:42 cd zope_src 17:34:46 python wo_pcgi.py 17:35:12 zope2.5 needs python2.1 17:35:19 python2.2 17:35:25 nope, that won't work 17:35:37 hmmph 17:35:42 z3 will be the first official platform to use python2.2 17:35:52 you can get 2.5 to work, but it requires elbow grease. 17:35:59 it sucks, i know. 17:36:14 but their are alot of changes internally in python at 2.2 17:36:57 actually in z3 extensionClass and friends aren't needed, cause they use the new style objects, so the only things in c are performance enhancement. 17:38:12 with 2.1 i get: 17:38:13 if i and picky: raise SystemError, i 17:38:13 SystemError: 512 17:38:18 double the systemerror! 17:38:37 * hazmat greps through 17:40:37 hmm... (i'm losing hope), probably need to clean out the directory from the 2.2 attempt, just rm and untar again, and try to run the script again with 2.1. 17:41:49 i'm running: 17:41:49 $ python2.1 w_pcgi.py 17:41:58 wo_pcgi.py 17:41:59 right? 17:42:22 i deleted the directory and tried again, same error 17:42:33 oh... above it is: 17:42:35 ././../Components/BTree/BTree.c:2003: `EXTENSIONCLASS_PYTHONICATTR_FLAG' undeclared here (not in a function) 17:42:35 ././../Components/BTree/BTree.c:2003: initializer element is not constant 17:42:35 ././../Components/BTree/BTree.c:2003: (near initialization for `BTreeType.class_flags') 17:42:35 make: *** [BTree.o] Error 1 17:42:35 T 17:42:51 what gcc version do you have? 17:43:10 $ gcc --version 17:43:10 2.95.4 17:43:30 anyone here have a machine at MIT? 17:44:25 aaronsw, i'm going to migrate some of this to #zope to get some help. 17:44:32 heh, ok 17:55:52 gasp! 17:55:52 [puzzlement] 17:55:52 [surprise] 17:56:01 yes, I thought I'd go and observe the poor fool 17:56:07 s/fool/fools/ 18:02:03 Wow. Amazon made their first-ever profit. 18:02:15 excellent 18:02:51 YET, from #zope has said he can't help because he's busy. 18:03:19 so, its SOL time. 18:03:55 cause i don't know what the problem is, and i need to get back to work myself at the moment. bummer. 18:05:08 oh well 18:05:10 .acronym SOL 18:05:12 SOL: Sadly Outta Luck (polite form), Office of the Solicitor (US Department of Labor), Satellite Of Love, Scandinavia Online, Seafarer's Open Learning System, Semantic Operating Language, Sequence Order List, Shadows of Luclin (Everquest expansion), Shazzam - Outta Luck (Gomer Pyle polite form), Shoot-Out Loss, Short On Landing, Simply Out of Luck (polite form), Simulation Oriented Language, 18:05:13 Small Out-Line Integrated Circuit, Smile Out Loud, Sobbing Out Loud, Solenoid, Solicitation, Solution, Sons of Liberty 18:06:05 'Common sense is creeping into the Georgia State legislature, where a sweeping zero-tolerance-for-weapons-in-schools bill has resulted in discplinary action being taken against students who bring such potentially dangerous items as a Tweety Bird keychain fob to school. Now, Georgia lawmakers are trying to modify "zero tolerance" to include "common sense."' 18:07:24 @ http://www.oreillynet.com/lpt/a//webservices/2002/01/18/brewster.html 18:07:29 A: http://www.oreillynet.com/lpt/a//webservices/2002/01/18/brewster.html from AaronSw 18:07:31 A:|How the Wayback Machine Works 18:07:33 titled item A 18:08:26 A::With [Richard Koman|http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/102] and [Brewster Kahle|http://www.kahle.org/Brewster/] 18:08:27 commented item A 18:08:48 .wc kibosh 18:09:01 .wn kibosh 18:09:02 kibosh defined as: 18:09:03 - v : stop from happening or developing; "Block his election"; "Halt the process" [syn: {stop}, {halt}, {block}] 18:09:59 cool, xena is the key to a good vocabulary ;) 18:10:19 hee 18:10:56 A::" As you'll read in this in interview, the folks at the Archive have turned clusters of PCs into a single parallel computer running the biggest database in existence -- and wrote their own operating system, P2, which allows programmers with no expertise in parallel systems to program the system." 18:10:56 commented item A 18:12:10 A::100 terabytes, 200 queries per second, on 400 Linux and FreeBSD machines. 18:12:10 commented item A 18:16:01 A::"We program the computer using a technology called P2, which we'll be putting out as open source for other people to able to operate parallel clusters of Linux or FreeBSD or Solaris boxes. P2 is a Perl script that takes commands and runs them on remote boxes, splits up data to be able to run on them, and then brings back and correlates the data." 18:16:03 commented item A 18:17:08 A::They plan to let users run P2 scripts over the archive. "And then our challenge will be how to manage, say, 10 to 20 programs running at the same time over the data sets and not have people clobber each other. Kind of timesharing, but at the hundreds-of-computers level." 18:17:09 commented item A 18:31:53 Hooray, I managed to create a program which reports in EARL whether or not a page fails the "Alt Test"! 18:34:16 heh: "Where the Library of Congress has a budget of $450 million a year, you can be sure we don't." 18:34:30 A::"Where the Library of Congress has a budget of $450 million a year, you can be sure we don't." 18:34:33 commented item A 18:36:30 cool! 18:36:58 tav: "from what i can understand, fake ids are the accepted norm in the usa. i believe that really says something about the society that would breed such a culture." 18:37:19 tav: 'side note: just realised that my ideal aieru (the pen of the 21st century?) would be in the form of a katana. gives a whole new meaning to "the pen is mightier than the sword".' 18:38:37 heh, rael... http://www.oreillynet.com/~rael/archives/000121.shtml 18:38:43 aieru? katana? 18:38:54 aieru = wearable computer; katana = sword 18:39:15 I can just imagine Rael saying "That's ever so slightly surprising!" 18:39:24 heh, that's quite neat 18:39:34 * sbp can't imagine Rael saying it, but it's still funny 18:39:58 he has a funny british-californian accent 18:42:46 Rael has the accent of a Brit who's ever-so-slightly-surprised to find himself in California. 18:44:17 fear my mighty XML well-formedness and alt tag checking Python script! 18:44:23 aaaah! 18:44:34 (please don't run it on my site. please don't run it on my site. ...) 18:44:51 Mwahahaha! 18:45:21 * sbp runs it on his site 18:45:34 a simple "print doAltTest('http://aaronsw.com/')" is all it takes 18:45:47 fuck me, you're the first site to pass! 18:45:56 [[[ 18:46:00 _:fpreqfj . 18:46:00 . 18:46:00 . 18:46:01 accesstool.py . 18:46:04 _:fpreqfj _:lhonley . 18:46:05 _:fpreqfj . 18:46:05 _:fpreqfj _:piyalmb . 18:46:09 _:lhonley . 18:46:10 _:lhonley . 18:46:14 _:piyalmb . 18:46:14 _:piyalmb "AltTestcase" . 18:46:15 _:piyalmb "http://infomesh.net/2002/access/#AltTest" . 18:46:17 _:piyalmb "Test for all alt tags in document" . 18:46:19 ]]] 18:46:21 i have no idea what that means, but woohoo! 18:46:24 :-) 18:46:39 where did you get variable names like lhonley from? 18:47:08 import random # 8,031,810,176 combinations 18:47:08 for x in range(7): label += string.lowercase[random.randrange(0, 25)] 18:47:08 return '_:'+label 18:47:24 cwazy 18:47:36 what's the point? 18:47:41 for each pair of thingies, there's a 8,031,810,176/2 chance of a collison. I'm fairly optimistic 18:47:52 thingies? 18:47:54 s/collison/collision/ 18:47:58 bNodes 18:48:10 why not just use set names? 18:48:20 nah, too easy :-) 18:48:35 because it's generated in pieces - like building blocks of EARL 18:48:57 why not have a little namedispenser: return 'page' + n 18:49:19 n? 18:49:30 n is an increasing number 18:49:37 and page is whatever it is the bNode identifies 18:50:33 well, in fact, it still checks for bNode clashes, and I'm *hoping* that one day it will raise the error, because it'll be a story to tell at parties (or #swhack, anyway), but I really do think that a one-in-a-billion chance is good enough :-) 18:50:52 s/, b/. B/ 18:51:01 er... the second one 18:51:02 What kind of parties do you go to? ... because I want to be invited :) 18:51:10 Heh, heh 18:51:42 well, #swhack has been one big party since 2001-07-25. Well, kinda 18:52:12 "The Longest Cocktail Party" 18:52:14 Where's the booze? 18:52:15 * sbp notes that he had to prefix the first "well" because of the damn commenting syntax 18:52:22 you have to bring your own 18:52:37 yeah, very HHGTTG-esque 18:52:38 .google "The Longest Cocktail Party" beatles 18:52:39 "The Longest Cocktail Party" beatles: http://www.canongate.net/mojo/mojo.taf?_p=5906 18:52:45 Ahh, okay. I've got some great nacho cheese dip I can bring. 18:53:13 oh, interesting. I was thinking of the world's longest party in The Hitchhiker's Guide 18:53:36 ooh, nacho cheese 18:53:41 buy your copy: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1841950890/coolbooks02 18:53:58 Funny, I just discovered someone had AudioGalaxy'd me HHGTG in mp3 and it came up in my shuffle. Nice surprise. 18:54:02 Homer: Nacho, nacho man. I want to be a nacho man 18:54:27 the radio show? 18:54:50 Yup, the BBC radio show. 18:57:45 Gotta run 19:13:17 so i grab the binary Zope and run ./install: 19:13:19 There were errors during Python module compilation. 19:13:19 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 19:14:14 wha? 19:14:15 from __future__ import rested_snopes 19:17:02 Crap, sbp left. Was just starting to try getting rdfwiki going 19:17:13 i can (sorta) help with that 19:17:32 sbp has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:17:41 Well, mostly I just have the rdfwiki.py and it wants a pkl but doesn't create one. 19:17:47 Wondering if I'm missing some files. 19:18:23 i remember solving this... 19:18:42 logster, grep rdfwiki.*pkl 19:21:02 I'm logging. I found 3 answers for 'rdfwiki.*pkl' 19:21:03 0) 2002-01-22 19:18:42 logster, grep rdfwiki.*pkl 19:21:04 1) 2002-01-22 19:17:41 Well, mostly I just have the rdfwiki.py and it wants a pkl but doesn't create one. 19:21:05 2) 2001-09-05 03:53:23 er... create a rdfwiki.pkl file somewhere, too 19:21:10 logster is a speed daemon 19:21:10 i think i just did a touch rdfwiki.pkl 19:21:31 yeah, see 19:22:50 man, that was back when sbp said "he he he" and we jumped at the prescence of deltab. 19:29:22 One or more of the available Robert Morrises are speaking at EtCon 19:29:44 I think I'll call it HAP2002 19:29:55 maybe HAP02 19:33:53 OHAP 19:53:22 @ http://www.maine.indymedia.org/display.php3?article_id=1151&group=webcast 19:53:27 B: Maine Indymedia - webcast news from AaronSw 19:53:33 B:|Bill introduced that would reinstate draft in the US and US territories. 19:53:35 titled item B 19:54:15 B::Under this Bill, everyone between the ages of 18 and 22 in the US and territories (an estimated 9 million people) would have to go thru basic military training. 19:54:16 commented item B 19:54:20 B::via Morbus 19:54:21 commented item B 19:54:36 B::s/everyone/men/ -- it's optional for women 19:54:37 commented item B 20:02:19 if this goes thru expect a lot of sex change operations 20:04:42 Ack. Finally back from some net outages over here 20:05:07 wb. we were talking about the bill to reinstate the draft 20:05:15 in the US and territories 20:05:16 Eek! 20:05:22 yeah, exactly 20:06:02 And there was just a commentator on NPR the other day saying how the US army is so great because it's a volunteer army. 20:06:42 but wouldn't it be much better if everyone got to volunteer! 20:06:55 That's doubleplusungood 20:09:04 B:: Checkout the [Kuro5hin coverage|http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/1/17/204425/567] and [info from the Congress|http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:h.r.03598:] 20:09:05 commented item B 20:16:21 time for a walk 21:01:08 logster, grep rdfwiki.*pkl 21:01:34 I'm logging. I found 5 answers for 'rdfwiki.*pkl' (showing 0...4) 21:01:35 0) 2002-01-22 21:01:08 logster, grep rdfwiki.*pkl 21:01:36 1) 2002-01-22 19:21:10 i think i just did a touch rdfwiki.pkl 21:01:37 2) 2002-01-22 19:18:42 logster, grep rdfwiki.*pkl 21:01:38 3) 2002-01-22 19:17:41 Well, mostly I just have the rdfwiki.py and it wants a pkl but doesn't create one. 21:01:39 4) 2001-09-05 03:53:23 er... create a rdfwiki.pkl file somewhere, too 21:02:37 Strange, the 2001-09-05 chatlog is not linked in at http://blogspace.com/swhack/chatlogs/ 21:02:45 But it exists, it seems. 21:03:18 sbp (~sean@m367-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 21:05:58 sbp: Oh, hey. I'm poking at rdfwiki but it needs an rdfwiki.pkl Is there a oneliner or something to create one? 21:06:52 sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m115-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com))) 21:06:56 D'oh 21:07:11 sbp (~sean@m115-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 21:11:11 Ah hah. I figured out what to do to make the rdfwiki go. 21:12:54 sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m402-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com))) 21:13:13 sbp (~sean@m402-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 21:13:55 * sbp waves to deus, and catches up from the logs 21:14:15 you have to create an empty text file called rdfwiki.pkl, but I guess you figured that out 21:14:16 Haloo! Looks like you've got some turbulence. 21:14:49 Well, I created rdfwiki.pkl, made it webserver-writable, and then went to rdfwiki?go=yes 21:15:53 did it work? 21:16:02 It seems to have worked, yes. 21:16:30 excellent! 21:16:53 it's not all that flashy, but it's bare-bones working 21:17:07 in fact, later versions have more features, but they're a bit rougher, so I didn't put them onlin 21:17:15 it could do with being re-written 21:17:22 Now I just have to figure out exactly what it's for. And do lots of reading on all things semantic web 21:18:08 heh. It's just a Wiki, but one with Semantic Web Power(TM)(C) 21:18:41 if you go to ?showstore=yes or something, it gives you a dump of the stuff in the Wiki as RDF 21:19:19 and people should be able to add in huge RDF files of their own - the idea is that everybody contributes to it, like a database of documentation and ordinary data 21:19:32 and then the CGI lets you browse it, as if it were a big database 21:19:46 I think my problem is that I haven't fully grokked RDF yet. 21:19:56 ah. Try semanticWeb-long and swintro 21:20:01 .google semanticWeb-long 21:20:02 semanticWeb-long: http://logicerror.com/semanticWeb-long 21:20:05 .google swintro 21:20:06 swintro: http://infomesh.net/2001/swintro 21:20:09 * sbp bows 21:21:16 * AaronSw is back from his walk, and now has revolutionary fervor in him 21:21:23 deus_x, want to join the plex project? 21:21:28 ugh. You should walk about less :-) 21:21:34 it affects your brain somehow 21:21:44 heh heh 21:22:01 I want 110% from everbody before the o'reilly con. 21:22:02 deus, are you still there? 21:22:13 Hmm... what if we can only provide 107%? 21:22:25 Fine, I'll take it. 21:22:26 the FIA would be alright with that, wouldn't they? 21:22:36 FIA? 21:23:11 uh huh 21:23:16 What's that? 21:23:29 .google FIA 107% rules 21:23:29 feck 21:23:29 .google FIA 107% rule 21:23:30 no results found. 21:23:32 no results found. 21:23:40 xena? 21:24:03 * deus_x adds them to his wiki. 21:24:17 Whoa, net's back up? 21:24:28 aha. 21:24:49 Wow. Our net keeps going up and down here, but I'm IRCing through a proxy which stays connected and logs while I'm gone 21:24:51 http://www.atlasf1.com/97/san/gogos.html 21:25:04 yeah, dircproxy is cool 21:25:11 Yup, that's the one. 21:25:17 * sbp wants that 21:25:23 i asked you! 21:25:29 did you? ooh! ooh! 21:25:35 Oh, and re: Plex project, sure but not sure how helpful I'll be yet :) 21:26:05 OK, so here's the thing: we only have to get the Plex running once, and then make it upgrade itself. By the time it gets made illegal (if that happens) it'll be too late. 21:26:19 lol 21:26:21 I made the mistake of playing with the regex triggers in dircproxy, for fun I had it page me when anyone said "monkey". Then I let slip that I'd done that. 21:26:29 lol 21:26:38 monkey 21:27:15 So all day, my phone was visited by members of #perl on rhizomatic.net. monkey monkey monkey monkey monkey 21:27:32 oh man 21:28:51 Hmm. I really need to play with python more. 21:29:09 you could play with it while working on the Plex ;) 21:29:19 My brane is far too saturated with perl. 21:30:24 * deus_x wanders back to plexdev.org 21:30:59 Ooh, Chord. I've heard of that. 21:33:17 aw, bummer 21:33:30 hm? 21:33:33 erm... because if you hadn't heard of Chord, you'd be... 21:33:35 oh, forget it 21:34:15 [more wonderful off-log shenanigans spill over into the regular logs] 21:40:12 so, deus_x, want to hear my big plex speech 21:40:14 ? 21:40:35 AaronSw: Sure :) I may get dragged away to a meeting though 21:40:54 ok. i'll make it short then. 21:41:23 But my logging ears are always open :) 21:41:52 we're going to build a worldwide decentralized network that will do three things: 21:41:52 - let you get any file you want quickly 21:41:53 - let you ask questions of the entire Internet 21:41:53 - let you leave messages for anyone who wants to listen to them 21:42:31 sbp has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 21:42:40 we want to make it a universal protocol. a system on which you can layer anything, and in doing so make it easy, decentralized and leaverage the network effects of the other parts of the system. 21:42:44 sbp (~sean@m402-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 21:43:55 Sounds like a sufficiently broad set of goals :) 21:43:55 does that make sense? 21:44:01 heh 21:44:27 Kind of. Part of my problem, is I'm just starting to read up on semantic web concepts, which I only partly had before 21:44:52 so the basic idea of the semantic web is that we give types to links. 21:45:05 so instead of -> 21:45:14 it'd be: --worksFor--> 21:45:17 Like, I don't immediately grok the greatness of a triple. 21:45:31 a triple is just a typed link 21:45:34 Oh, is that it then? type name value ? 21:45:38 yep 21:45:44 heh, return of the arrows 21:45:48 except we call them subject ---predicate--> object . 21:47:21 they're broad goals but we think they're definitely realizable 21:47:32 Ahh okay, bit of a difference (scanning through semanticWeb-long right now) 21:47:52 a difference between what? 21:48:20 Well, it's not just as simple as "boolean eatsFood yes" so not just type name value 21:48:36 oh... i see, no it's different than that. 21:48:55 it'd be more like: 21:48:55 john eatsFood yes 21:48:55 eatsFood objectType boolean 21:49:27 Heh.. meta ad infinitum 21:52:34 Okay, my brane is on the ground floor of triples. Will have to poke around a bit more to grok it. 21:53:47 feel free to ask qs in here or #rdfig 21:54:09 Oh I probably will :) I have the notion that I should be interested in this, even if I don't quite have it yet. 21:57:27 feel free to visit #plex too 22:09:34 hmm, they moved the date of EtCon later. 22:09:44 now it's immediately after WWW2002... urgh 22:29:02 sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m15-mp1-cvx5a.pop.ntl.com))) 22:29:22 sbp (~sean@m15-mp1-cvx5a.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 22:33:09 sbp has quit (Client Quit) 22:33:20 sbp (~sean@m15-mp1-cvx5a.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 22:35:36 sbp, youd dirc is up on port 5700 22:36:00 hooray! 22:36:03 IP address? 22:36:09 vorpal.logicerror.com 22:36:20 sbp has quit (Client Quit) 22:37:09 sbp (~sean@63.149.73.20) has joined #swhack 22:37:39 hey there 22:37:49 ooh 22:37:55 * sbp waves from Vorpal 22:38:34 O.K., let's test the disconnection thingy 22:38:38 whee 22:38:43 bye sbp 22:38:45 we'll miss you 22:38:51 maybe not... 22:40:03 * AaronSw twidles thumbs 22:40:57 cool, it works! 22:40:59 whee 22:41:01 bye sbp 22:41:03 we'll miss you 22:41:05 maybe not... 22:41:07 * AaronSw twidles thumbs 22:41:09 did you say anything else? 22:41:30 nope 22:42:05 ooh, and I didn't disconnect :-) 22:42:14 many thanks, Aaron! 22:42:22 of course 22:42:44 i remembered when i first offered it to you. you said something like "why would i want that?" 22:43:22 I guess I was just used to being off of IRC more than being on it 22:43:42 now, with more connectivity, the disconnection spots are more annoying 22:43:52 yeah, i suppose so 22:44:01 you can always /dircproxy quit when you really want to go 22:44:14 why would I want to go? :-) 22:44:26 so you're going to be on 24/7 now? 22:44:38 uh oh... we'll have to cancel all the sbp-bashing parties 22:44:43 if that's alright. That's what you do :-) 22:45:22 heh, this feel sort of like mr.slimey just meeting eyrinthia 22:45:40 (i had to use that analogy sometime) 22:45:57 eyrinthia? 22:46:07 in "True Names" 22:47:12 .google "True Names" eyrinthia 22:47:13 no results found. 22:50:09 i probably misspelled it 22:50:50 erythrina 22:51:18 cool: http://members.tripod.com/erythrina/ 22:51:25 .google Mr. Slimey "True Names" 22:51:27 Mr. Slimey "True Names": http://progoth.resnet.gatech.edu/truename/truename.htm 22:52:07 ugh, mr. slippery, sorry 22:52:54 oh dircproxy is so cool 22:53:10 heh, what happened? 22:53:21 my connection folded, for some reason 23:02:45 hmm, they're demoing peek-a-booty at codecon 23:03:21 heh! "libfreenet, the only functional Freenet implementation not written in Java (C) (presented as a case study for how not to do things -- the developer has given up and does not want to create an implementation for the post-0.3 era)" 23:07:23 heh, this thecircle guy uses the test on The Ring as his backgrop for his slides 23:11:05 man, he really reinvent chord... 23:12:12 lol: "some random data is needed.... Please bang on the keyboard like a monkey." 23:12:28 heh, heh 23:14:54 Um... ah yes, I was wondering about date datatypes in EARL... O.K. 23:17:15 heh 23:17:39 re: libfreenet, we have a working .4 implementation 23:17:55 one not written in java 23:19:38 yea, thecircle's cool 23:20:32 yet another atavism - sounds a lot how i described a certain network would work, to oierw back in june 23:20:40 s/lot/lot like/ 23:21:38 [datatypes: and now I've been distracted *again*] 23:22:30 thecircle is just chord insofar as network is concerned 23:22:35 have you run the app, tav? 23:22:55 i'm trying to chat up with folks about the plex 23:24:06 they've done so much! 23:24:13 file sharing, people finding, a trust metric for news 23:24:19 a GUI, proxying thru firewalls 23:24:21 no, i haven't managed to successfully get gtk working 23:24:45 trust metric for news? 23:24:46 i thought gtk was just gnome 23:24:52 in python 23:25:04 oh... i just did an apt-get install python2 23:25:23 it works w/ py2.0 ? 23:25:27 2.1 23:26:06 trust metric: yep you rate trust on 1 to 10 and then news flows along trust conenctions 23:27:01 hmz, it compiled and installed the gtk modules ? 23:27:25 yeah, but i was running on redhat 23:27:33 it didn't compile them, they came with 23:27:40 oh 23:28:08 the client does IRC over the network too. 23:28:40 wow 23:28:54 they've fully implemented all this? 23:29:01 yeah, seems so 23:29:23 the shell also supports arbitrary shell and python commands 23:31:06 and it's all written in python 23:31:13 is there a cli? 23:31:19 don't think so 23:31:48 i'm behind a nat, so i'm using mu2 to proxy. 23:32:05 hmm, it's all UDP 23:32:15 yea, noticed 23:32:20 cool, it lets you search on filenames and id3 tags 23:32:32 has minimal swarming 23:32:42 all for just over half a meg 23:32:47 quite a package 23:32:59 yeah, i'm surprised you haven't bought them yet 23:33:07 i guess it's cuz he doesn't hang out in #iA 23:33:19 i didn't realise it did all that 23:33:31 it spoke of lots, i just thought it had a basic circle implementation 23:33:34 cool, everything is digitally signed 23:33:49 and encrypted 23:34:03 it has this weird representation of your public key as a little line drawing too 23:34:45 appears to do relaying too 23:34:52 hmz 23:35:31 (this is what happens when you have people who can really code) 23:36:03 his "future directions" include plexnames (i.e. dns via trust connections) 23:36:25 he says he doesn't have an efficient algorithm for it tho 23:36:42 yes 23:36:59 do you? 23:37:40 i believe so 23:37:56 also can enhanced to provide hansel and gretel (sp?) routing 23:38:44 hmz 23:38:59 hmm? breadcrumbs? 23:39:03 can't install python-gtk 23:39:15 requires python-base 23:39:25 why don't you have that? 23:40:18 ok, where do i sign up for this? i need to talk to this guy! 23:40:44 yea, i initiated conversation w/ him after seeing his presentation 23:40:54 how'd that go? is he on irc? 23:41:08 no, he doesn't like irc. wise man ;p 23:41:39 xena, easy on the in-your-face URLs, OK? give me a title along with the pointer, would ya? 23:41:40 - #rdfig 23:41:40 heh. indeed 23:44:29 so via email then? did you communicate in a public forum? 23:44:34 . o O ( this is tav, of course not ) 23:44:58 oh dear, please don't 23:45:20 I've escaped people using the ". o O" syntax for quite a while - don't you start! 23:45:29 what's wrong with it 23:45:39 . o O ( i wonder what sbp thinks of this ) 23:45:41 and I'm sure that ". o O { dream }" looks better 23:46:17 { } ? 23:46:19 ewwwwww! 23:46:53 hazmat has left #swhack 23:47:03 I wonder how long he's been working on this. 23:47:43 he's got some really beautiful photography too. 23:48:13 i want to be like this guy. 23:48:20 too bad he lives in australia 23:49:35 bwhahaahaha! gtk compiles! 23:52:44 cool, they sent me a PDF of my article. it's all pretty 23:53:29 me: here you've built [PyChord] and have the services I planned to build on top 23:53:29 pfh: only half? ;-) 23:54:43 pfh: just looking at the plex page now 23:57:43 .google thecircle 23:57:43 thecircle: http://www.thief-thecircle.com 23:59:25 rillian (~giles@mist.thaumas.net) has joined #swhack