00:00:19 M::Bots are an interesting combination of command lines and Web services. I find myself using xena quite a bit. 00:00:20 this the blest lover shall for venus take! 00:00:25 commented item M 00:00:31 tav`: can you get me a Segway? 00:00:39 lol 00:00:49 been a good boy this year? 00:00:54 What do you need one for, you've got a car. I got dibs 00:01:31 a black-market segway has extreme greek cred 00:02:18 M::aierus are the future! 00:02:21 commented item M 00:02:53 tav, what do you think of the Singularity? 00:03:12 all who go near it will be sucked into oblivion 00:03:13 [[[ 00:03:15 For those of us confused by the maddeningly vague, numbinglywritten WAI Web Accessibility documents, the State of Illinois has prepared a nicely condensed, easytounderstand tutorial on the subject. Unfortunately, the tutorial is in PDF format, making it inaccessible. (Hat tip: Anonymous Donor A.) 00:03:20 ]]] - http://www.zeldman.com/daily/0102b.html#birthday 00:03:32 heh, heh, heh 00:03:43 he 00:04:06 * tav` declines to comment 00:04:16 why's that? 00:04:41 no comment 00:04:53 the Celeron is up to 1.3GHz; I feel so behind the times 00:05:07 wmf: heh, pj33r my 550 mhz cpu! 00:05:20 lucky bastard! 00:05:41 Ooh, CPU wars? 00:06:24 [[[Classical Fiddle Music: George "Big-Paw" Gershwin and his "Rhapsody in Blue Polkadots"]]] - Prarie Home Companion 00:14:48 * AaronSw grabs Radio 7 00:14:49 err 8 00:14:57 * sbp notes that almost all RDF APIs have a Node/Resource, Triple/Statement, and Graph/Store 00:15:07 radio looks nice 00:17:35 PHC: "James Joyce was one of the greatest writers of the 21st century, you can now use his tips to write your business letters." 00:17:37 hilarious! 00:18:00 somebody alert Jorn 00:18:47 "The stream of consciousness style is so good for memos... and client letters too!" 00:19:10 bahaha 00:19:14 lol 00:19:21 * AaronSw hunts for a transcript. 00:19:34 @ http://phc.mpr.org/performances/20000304/joyce_business_school.html 00:19:41 N: APHC: Saturday, March 4, 2000 from AaronSw 00:19:49 N:|James Joyce Business School 00:19:51 titled item N 00:20:13 N::"Do you find it frustrating to write business letters and memos that say all that you want to say? Maybe it's time you considered a business writing course at the James Joyce Business School. James Joyce was one of the greatest writers of the Twentieth Century. Now you can use his principles to improve your own business writing." 00:20:15 commented item N 00:20:32 Jorn's resume: 00:20:33 -- 00:20:34 Dear Sir or Madam or Sodom or Whom It May Confirm: 00:20:34 I understand you are hiring programmers and hereby present my amplification for annoyment by your firm. As you see, I see, juicy lucy goosy poosy, I have long expedience in grammar and was medicated in the best schools and my dram is to ride underwear. On my clothes is my consomme. Please feel free. 00:20:35 I remain your humble serpent. 00:20:36 -- 00:21:29 Patent pending 00:22:23 Dear Mr. Pending, [...] 00:23:11 Have you written up your plex questions yet? 00:24:37 Nope 00:24:43 Well, do so already. 00:24:46 Ooh: http://www.distributed.net/webcams/ 00:24:54 hey! That's my link 00:25:45 Hmm... that's funny, I didn't record it on my little "record browsing session" spree 00:25:53 wow, that's kinda scary. Just browsing the Internet, and up pops Morbus 00:25:53 not only that, but using information i gave him! and he didn't even credit me. 00:26:00 lol! 00:26:23 Heh, you fell for the raelity pun: "Real got an iPod" 00:26:31 argh 00:26:47 down to dumb-assed typing 00:27:04 D'ya want me to just paste questions in here, or send them somewhere else? 00:27:35 does that mean it supports RealAudio now? :-) 00:28:10 sbp: whatever's easier for you. i intend to send it to plex-talk or throw it on the site when we're done 00:28:43 Mmmkay 00:29:38 Heh, http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/200201/msg00072.html is pretty funny. 00:35:02 :-) 00:35:10 Here's a handful of things 00:35:11 * Does the success of 'Plex depend upon it being install on as many computers as possible? Who's going to do the PR? 00:35:11 * Why is 'Plex better than any of the current P2P implementations - i.e. what are the features that put it a cut above the rest? 00:35:11 * What languages is 'Plex going to be programmed in? How is it going to be shipped - as code to run, or a packaged binary, or a choice? 00:35:17 * There are very few easy to get SHA5** implmenetations lying about. Do the Plex developers intend to create their own implementation, or attempt to package one up? 00:35:18 * How does 'Plex work? More specifically: * Can I simply retrieve files by their hash/URI, and how does this work in general? * How does it remain anonymous 00:35:18 * Are you expecting all internet/Web related apps. to be be based on 'Plex technologies in the future? 00:35:25 * What is there to stop any other group of people designing a rival 'Plex? What would happen if they did? 00:35:25 * How many people are currently working on the Plex project? When can I expect to install some working code? 00:35:25 * Will data ever be deleted from the Plex? What happens if someone tries to flood the network - is 'Plex resistant to attacks? 00:35:28 * How much will 'Plex cost me? Seriously now 00:35:36 maybe you should have just emailed these to me. :-) 00:35:46 * Why do I keep saying 'Plex? 00:35:51 nah, I want real-time answers. Make you sweat 00:36:00 'Plex = the Plex. Plex = Plex 00:36:41 s/rival 'Plex/Plex/ 00:37:05 feel free to answer via. IRC, email, or HTTP 00:37:14 or all three. Hey, I'm easy 00:37:27 But you must answer by sundown tomorrow 00:37:36 heh, heh 00:37:39 * AaronSw starts on it 00:37:43 :-) 00:40:58 -- 00:40:59 Does the success of the Plex depend upon it being install on as many computers as possible? 00:41:01 Of course not. Obvious the Plex benefits from the "Network Effect", meaning that the more people who use it, the more valuable the system becomes. However, the Plex is perfectly useful even if there are only a small number of users participating. 00:41:01 Who's going to do the PR? 00:41:02 Who did the PR for the Internet? The Web? The Plex is completely non-commercial, and we feel that if it's useful, it will be news on its own. If you'd like to ask us questions about it, you can of course send us an email. 00:41:03 -- 00:42:18 ooh, he's 1/5 of the way through already, and it's not even sunrise 00:42:34 I'm going to use this for a FAQ. 00:42:48 How does it sound? is it too commercial? 00:42:55 no, those are good answers 00:43:11 does this sound too commercial to you: "The Plex is completely non-commercial"? 00:43:23 heh. 00:43:30 i meant comerciallian. 00:43:41 like: "this toothpaste will make you happy and joyous for the rest of your life!" 00:44:03 If the Plex were a toothpaste, people would eat it 00:44:16 no, I don't think it's too commerciallian 00:45:04 although I must admit that I fail to see how it's going to be useful if there are only five users. You can bung that in the FAQ too, if you like :-) 00:45:44 It's useful in the same way the Web was with just particle physicists. 00:45:53 lol 00:45:59 Mmmkay 00:46:45 -- 00:46:45 Why is the Plex better than any of the current P2P implementations - i.e. what are the features that put it a cut above the rest? 00:46:46 We've tried to learn from many of the current P2P systems in the Plex, and of course the network is continuously evolving and improving. However, phase one of the Plex project focuses on metadata, something few P2P networks have tackled. We feel that this is really going to be useful and poweful if done right. 00:46:46 -- 00:47:32 apart from the invention of a new adj., that's also a good response 00:47:55 which adj. is that? 00:48:02 poweful 00:51:05 ooh, wacky coding:- 00:51:06 [[[ 00:51:06 document = string.replace(document, '\r\n', '\n') 00:51:06 document = string.replace(document, '\r', '\n') 00:51:07 ]]] 00:51:38 document.replace('\r', '\n') # would have done it 00:52:01 umm, i don't think so 00:52:08 really? 00:52:19 well, not by itself. 00:52:23 well, document = ... 00:52:51 you'd still need the '\r\n' line 00:53:00 why? 00:53:12 for platforms that use that as their line ending 00:53:18 oh yeah, to reduce it down 00:53:23 right 00:53:28 Pff 00:53:39 otherwise you'd get the annoying double-blanks you see quite a bit 00:54:02 (which are, incedentally, O.K.) 00:54:10 i can't stand them 00:54:28 well, this is in the NTriples parser, so the string doesn't get output'd 00:54:51 oh 00:54:56 -- 00:54:57 What languages is the Plex going to be programmed in? 00:54:58 We're currently programming in Python, but we'll probably use C modules and perhaps have some code in C for speed. 00:54:58 How is it going to be shipped - as code to run, or a packaged binary, or a choice? 00:54:58 On most platforms we'll have compiled versions of the C code with a copy of the Python code that you can just run. Of course all source code wil be available. 00:55:00 -- 00:55:27 Why SHA5**? 00:55:45 There are very few easy to get SHA512 implementations lying about. Do the Plex developers intend to create their own implementation, or attempt to package one up? 00:55:46 See above. 00:55:56 Especially the bit about C code. 00:56:44 SHA5**: easier to type. Heh, I dunno. Just making the world a more magical place, I suppose 00:57:11 I could do SHA*1*, but it's not so easy to type 00:57:33 and people won't have the feign test clue what I'm barfing on about 00:58:07 heh: feighn test 00:58:10 admittedly, it will therefore make little difference... 00:58:23 :-) 00:58:46 * wmf starts a rumor that plex is using SHA517 00:58:53 heh, heh 00:58:53 Heh, heh, heh. 01:00:19 it'll be totally incompatible with everything else! 01:00:50 That's sort of a good thing, since it won't break anyone else who requires hashes to be one-way. ;-) 01:04:06 Hmm, seems sort of odd that Raph's remailer list is at sendfakemail.com 01:05:25 where? 01:05:48 - http://www.sendfakemail.com/~raph/remailer-list.html 01:06:20 that is odd 01:06:44 it's got good google power too 01:08:11 anyone have a lay-person's description of the anonymous remailer network? 01:08:47 argh 01:08:47 ah, here we go: http://www.andrebacard.com/remail.html 01:09:09 s/else: self.ruid = ruid.RUID()/else: self.uri = 'urn:x-ruid:'+ruid.RUID()/ 01:09:29 no... 01:09:35 that might cause problems 01:10:08 why? 01:10:40 because people will want their anon-nodes back (and still anonymous) 01:11:44 *grumble* 01:11:45 I wish someone would implement DC-nets already. 01:11:52 .google DC-nets 01:11:53 DC-nets: http://www.computerworld.com/cwi/story/0,1199,NAV47_STO63766,00.html 01:11:56 what's that grumble about? anon nodes? 01:12:04 DC: dining cryptographers 01:12:09 Mmmhmm :-) 01:12:20 Don't you know that story? 01:12:37 Nope 01:12:45 Ooh, cool. I love this story. 01:12:54 So a bunch of cryptographers go out for dinner. 01:12:59 oh crap, what have I done? 01:13:03 carry on... 01:13:06 They have a nice meal, and at the end the waiter announces that it's already been paid for. 01:13:17 So the cyrptographers wonder if it was one of them, or the NSA who paid for it. 01:13:46 So they all take out a coin, and flip it, showing only the person on their left the result. 01:14:14 Then everyone XORs the two coins they can see. 01:14:18 Do you know how XOR works? 01:14:29 exclusive OR: no 01:14:37 heh, heh, carry on 01:14:49 If the two bits are the same you get a 0, if they're different you get a 1. 01:15:01 so then they add up all the XORed bits. 01:15:25 unless you paid for the meal, in which case you report the opposite bit. 01:15:38 reverse the order of those last two lines 01:15:43 oh man 01:15:46 I think it should be called Drinking Cryptographers, but that's neither here nor there 01:16:10 if the sum of the bits is even, it was the NSA, otherwise it was one of the cyrptographers. 01:16:23 O.K. 01:16:47 this is completely anonymous -- it works even with two people and someone observing the bits folks called out. 01:17:13 (obviously with two people they know who's speaking but the observer doesn't) 01:17:16 oh man, you mean I watched that whole story, and there's no joke at the end of it? Well thanks - I just wasted five minutes! 01:17:39 Heh. 01:17:55 wmf, perhaps cryptographers can't come up with secure systems while drunk 01:18:13 O.K., all that's good, but where would you like this implemented? Scenario? 01:18:24 I mean, a better scenario then "who paid for dinner?" 01:18:40 well, anywhere you want anonymous communication... the who paid for dinner question can be seen as one bit -- repeat the process for each bit 01:18:57 there are more complexities for dealing with noise and two people talking at once, of course 01:21:49 -- 01:21:51 **How does the Plex work? 01:21:51 * Can I simply retrieve files by their hash/URI, and how does this work in general? 01:21:52 The Plex is built upon a hash-to-plaintext system which will allow you to retrieve files, but this is not the Plex's main usage. Instead, the Plex will allow you to retrieve all sorts of information about a URI. One type of information, of course, is a representation of the URI, like what you might get if you typed that URI into a Web browser. 01:21:52 * How does it remain anonymous? 01:21:53 We plan to use a system similar to that of the anonymous remailer network currently in existence, with a number of modifications. 01:22:13 -- 01:22:26 ah, hence the research 01:22:40 Yep. 01:23:25 What's up with RDF API? Are you binning it, or what? 01:23:43 No, it's going to be the way app developers talk to the Plex. 01:23:53 Through RDF API? 01:24:02 Yeah, and perhaps some abstraction layers above it. 01:24:07 will Python be fast enough? 01:24:09 Like SPARTA. 01:24:16 For most things. 01:24:19 oh, mnot's thing? 01:24:30 yeah -- altho i hope to change it quite a bit 01:24:40 No updates for a long while 01:25:36 Yeah, I really want to work on it, but I've been sort of busy... Primer, UK, Blogspace, PyChord. 01:25:59 Oh yeah, how's PyChord coming along? And PyBlogspace? 01:26:23 PyChord is coming along pretty well. PyBlogspace is going more slowly. 01:26:33 I really need a server system hooked up to it. 01:29:40 fear the just gods, and think of scylla's fate! 01:29:54 chang'd to a bird, and sent to flit in air 01:30:10 she dearly pays for nisus' injur'd hair! 01:30:46 tav, d'ya have a little gift economy site set up where folks can send the plex developers money. 01:30:49 sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m906-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com))) 01:31:08 sbp (~sean@m906-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 01:31:20 Do you have a description of the gift economy on the Web? 01:32:00 not one i've written, no 01:32:19 i don't care who wrote it 01:33:13 I think I'll add "Plex Developers" to fairtunes 01:33:22 hmz, no 01:33:31 to which? 01:33:36 fairtunes 01:34:29 -- 01:34:30 * Are you expecting all internet/Web related apps. to be be based on Plex technologies in the future? 01:34:31 Perhaps not all, but we hope for a lot of Web content to be available on the Plex, and encourage app builders who want decentralized storage and query to consider the Plex for their app. We feel that the technology provided by the Plex will be useful to many, and open up a lot of new possibilities for applications. 01:34:31 * What is there to stop any other group of people designing a rival Plex? What would happen if they did? 01:34:32 There's no technical issue stopping them, but clearly everyone will benefit if the networks are merged into one. It's the same reason no one has set up a "rival" Internet: there's really not a lot of point in cutting yourself off from everyone else. 01:34:33 -- 01:35:22 s/point in/benefit from/ 01:35:38 what's that in reply to? 01:36:05 sbp's questions 01:37:12 there is no internet. there is only the plex 01:38:19 * AaronSw notes not to let tav do PR 01:39:01 well, that 2nd answer is just pussyfooting around 01:39:11 What should I say? 01:39:48 if we were talking to the public, then, yes, that, but to answer sbp.... we can assimilate 01:40:07 Oh, yeah, i was writing for the public 01:40:18 sbp, if someone starts a rival plex, tav will eat them 01:40:26 heh 01:41:53 -- 01:41:55 * How many people are currently working on the Plex project? When can I expect to install some working code? 01:41:55 Right now we have a handful of people working on the project. You're certainly welcome to help out. We should have a very rough version out by the beginning of February. 01:41:56 * Will data ever be deleted from the Plex? 01:41:57 Each Plex node makes decisions about what data to delete based on who entered the data, how much the node trusts them and how much data they are currently storing on the Plex. 01:41:58 -- 01:46:55 * AaronSw buys plexnow.com 01:47:37 PlexNow!(TM) 01:47:59 Heh, now I just need to buy goplex and ilovetheplex 01:48:47 hmz 01:48:48 * wmf starts plexlog.editthispage.com 01:48:52 heh heh heh 01:49:17 odd: Invalid path: /Applications/AppleWorks 6/AppleWorks 6.app/Contents/MacOS/AppleWorks 6 01:49:23 from console.log 01:50:24 weird. i even get that error when i double click on that file 01:51:27 I think i'm going to point users to plexnow and have plexdev be for develoeprs 01:53:35 hmz 01:53:43 ehm 01:53:52 don't do that 01:53:56 why not? 01:54:07 plexnames 01:54:18 huh? 01:54:55 we are replacing the current structure here 01:55:19 i don't follow 01:55:53 it's like steve jobs going and buying a CRT 01:56:17 buying a domain name, you mean? 01:56:20 yes 01:56:41 we should get rid of the domain names 01:56:45 not buy more 01:57:13 I see your point, but I don't think it's appropriate here. Bootstrapping the Plex is going to be really important, and I think doing a little bit more to make that easier is a good idea. 02:01:23 uh oh, I am out of swap 02:01:39 ouch... on OS X? 02:01:43 yeah 02:03:33 it looks OK now; maybe I won't have to reboot 02:05:55 That reminds me: I'm getting a new server, and I want to know if I should have a swap partition, and if so, how large? 02:06:58 yes 02:07:23 sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m915-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com))) 02:07:34 I'm not sure about the size 02:07:42 what kind of machine are you getting? 02:07:44 sbp (~sean@m915-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 02:08:13 1 Ghz P3, 1 GB RAM, 40 GB disk 02:09:39 nice 02:10:03 yeah, it was surprisingly cheap 02:10:23 only $700 or so 02:11:01 Intel probably can't give away 1GHz CPUs fast enough :-) 02:11:12 heh, heh 02:12:00 after all, who would settle for a measly 7932fps when you could have 50483fps? 02:12:48 Heh, exactly. 02:13:06 Especially since it's so important when, while... you know... um... 02:13:13 running windows xp 02:38:13 Surely not? Could I install BeOS and have it running on a WinMe computer? 02:38:19 Yes, it's true -- it's as easy as it sounds. 02:38:37 It's quite something -- they did a very nice job. 02:39:46 ooh, Scot Hacker's sequel: http://www.birdhouse.org/macos/beos_osx/redux.html 02:39:56 Reactions to "Tales of a BeOS Refugee" 02:40:55 yeah, he has watered down most of his arguments to be little more than nitpicks 02:42:42 Trouble is, the BeOS download is about 45MB, and I can't find that dang thing. Plus, Palm bought BeOS, so I doubt there's going to be any support - BeOS down the drain? 02:43:01 Nice to see that you're still going through my collection from yesterday :-) 02:43:08 How often do you call Microsoft Support? 02:43:18 Hmm... good point 02:43:27 Point me to the download! 02:43:27 I don't think Be provided support even when they were in business 02:44:19 Be's site is down? 02:45:23 how about http://instructionaltechnology.editthispage.com/stories/storyReader$121 02:47:05 Have you tried Be's site? 02:47:13 yeah 02:47:15 "To our valued shareholders, partners, and customers" 02:47:33 i know 02:48:16 however ftp://ftp.sunet.se/pub/os/BeOS/beos/ looks good 02:49:32 and ftp://www.beforever.com/pub/beforever/freebe/ 02:50:01 O.K. 02:50:09 -- 02:50:11 * What happens if someone tries to flood the network - is the Plex resistant to attacks? 02:50:12 We attempt to prevent users from flooding the network by making them pay in hash cash -- essentially a way form of payment in CPU cycles. The "price" goes up as the server runs out of space. 02:50:12 We've worked on a number of solutions like this one to attacks on the Plex. Of course I'm sure that users will come up with more, and we'll do our best to respond to them as they come up. 02:50:13 * How much will 'Plex cost me? Seriously now. 02:50:13 The Plex is absolutely free. Honest. All you need is a computer, some disk space and an Internet connection. The project is funded by the gift economy -- essentially your contributions. Feel free to make a donation. 02:50:17 -- 02:50:47 sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m973-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com))) 02:51:08 sbp (~sean@m973-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 02:51:10 And that's all the questions. And it's not even tomorrow! 02:51:30 ooh, did I miss it? 02:51:51 I guess so. 02:52:38 I like the link to "@@" 02:53:02 :-) 03:02:46 Ooh, I didn't know about Command-Option clicking the Doc. 03:02:48 err Dock 03:03:14 cool 03:04:38 sbp, i've had that FS idea for a long time... i wonder how it'd be in real life 03:04:50 FS idea? 03:05:10 filesystem thingy 03:05:25 ah, right. Yeah, it would be neat to implement it 03:05:31 what idea? 03:05:42 having a filesystem be a big RDF database 03:05:49 ah 03:06:10 you'd get all the power of Be metadata and more! 03:06:17 plus built-in CVS archives 03:06:30 and Plex compatability 03:06:39 sorry, *ultimate* Plex compatability 03:06:48 Yeah: Plex Everywhere. 03:07:20 I'm not sure how the CVS would work - you might want to thread the resources. Oh, TimBL published that CVS flow schema, somewhere. doc.n3 03:08:41 Ah, the LISP thing came from How To Become A Hacker. 03:09:21 I hear SICP is good for that. 03:09:36 wmf, did you do SICP at UT-Austin? 03:10:34 nope, we used Haskell 03:10:52 * AaronSw wrinkles nose 03:10:53 ;-) 03:11:01 Haskell is OK 03:11:18 I hear it's pretty cool. 03:11:24 OmniWeb: "To pay, or not to pay? That is the question. Whether tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous monopolies, or to take arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing end them?" 03:11:33 I like how you can copy-and-paste from dialog boxes. 03:11:41 yeah, that's a funny one 03:12:15 I'm not going to pay for OmniWeb until it can do CSS properly 03:12:30 i dunno - i might just not buy omniweb so i can keep reading he funny sayings. ;-) 03:12:41 Yeah, no CSS is a killer. 03:12:43 I think I've seen them all already 03:12:54 Don't they add more with new versions? 03:13:01 maybe 03:13:42 No CSS? I laugh at it 03:14:10 Heh, well it's really bare-bones CSS. 03:14:41 they're busy adding javascript bug-compatibility, but they can't support CSS fully :-( 03:14:53 ugh, that's terrible 03:14:56 Well they stole the JS from someone else. 03:15:00 and now they're asking you to pay for it? 03:15:05 run, run away! 03:15:21 run, don't walk/hop/skip 03:15:32 using mozilla's js engine is probably a good idea, but still 03:15:52 if they can steal a JS engine, they can surely steal a CSS rendering engine? 03:18:52 deltab asks if Amaya has http auth logout 03:19:00 i didn't know such a thing existed. does links support it? 03:19:21 how can you logout of a state less protocol? 03:19:30 heh: """stop wondering about where you want to go today, and get ready to Be.""" - http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=269 03:19:42 auth logout? I presume you mean just wiping the password cache 03:21:12 heh, BeOS is quite extensible too: """The 64-bit journal file system enables you to plug a hard disk that's as large 68 million terabytes.""" - http://web.archive.org/web/20011223062345/www.review-zone.com/software/reviews/winme_vs_beos/page8.shtml 03:21:54 Hmm, why isn't the Radio UserLand small icon as pretty as the big dock one 03:23:36 Radio: "Your new website's URL is http://radio.weblogs.com/0100663/." 03:24:38