00:00:03 is it tied to mithril? 00:00:11 Hmm... that's not it :-) 00:00:20 ah http://www.best.com/~mccusker/irondoc/irondoc.htm 00:00:27 no, irondoc is vaporware 00:00:38 now http://www.treedragon.com/ged/fe/fe.htm 00:01:01 " IronDoc currently has the status of vaporware, and has held this explicitly noted status since the middle of 1997, so this situation is not new." 00:01:20 Ooh, I remember you talking about IronDoc ages ago 00:01:29 Yeah, and danbri ages before that. 00:01:57 irondoc has quite a history 00:03:22 Heh: http://www.treedragon.com/ged/map/ti/newJan02.htm#08jan02 00:04:01 looks like irondoc has been designed into the ground. 00:04:10 heh 00:04:21 at "Previously we resolved the conflict by not celebrating mine" 00:04:26 ooh, forgot the period! 00:04:29 at "Previously we resolved the conflict by not celebrating mine." 00:04:35 I do apologize 00:04:36 heh at "1 in 365 of course" 00:04:37 thats interesting i was talking to one of the people listed there about applying workflow to parsedxml. dethra of burning tiger. 00:05:06 irondoc has a lot of history: Mozilla, Netscape, Apple's OpenDoc, etc. 00:06:48 but its vaporware, regardless of its history... although it seems to have influenced some people/projects. 00:07:43 to tav, from the yet-another-zope-replacement dept. http://www.cheetahtemplate.org/ 00:08:06 Heard of Apache? 00:08:18 No, is that some sort of helicopter? 00:08:25 well... yes... 00:08:56 interesting: "free license Commented source code for Mithril and IronDoc will be copyrighted, but free for any use without restriction. Uncommented source code will be public domain. Notice a careful separation between what software does and what it means." 00:09:33 i had an interesting discussion yesterday about free software licenses and community on #zope 00:09:44 Oh? 00:10:14 * hazmat is looking for an archive link 00:10:56 i thought what lisa and diane said was funny: http://www.treedragon.com/ged/map/ti/newJan02.htm#06jan02-crazier 00:12:20 http://irclogs.espnow.com/zope-logs/show_file.php?logfile=2002_01_09.log 00:12:35 between the jester, myself, and webmaven 00:13:05 starting aroung 05:50 00:14:00 hmm 00:14:16 * sbp adds a bit more code to browser.py - it's addictive! 00:15:28 Hmm... if I'm going to do it properly, I need to factor out the HTML Parser, don't I? But I don't wanna! 00:16:58 TheJester seems pretty reasonable 00:23:08 he is. he's a bsd advocate. 00:23:37 i'm curious how patents affect free software. 00:23:56 RDF is free :-) 00:23:58 i started reading through the fsf material after the discussion. 00:24:12 voicexml is patent encumbered though. 00:25:05 a bsd advoacate. bleech 00:25:21 software patents suck 00:25:26 @ http://www.scripting.com/stories/2002/01/09/kevinKellyTheWebRunsOnLoveNotGreed.html 00:25:31 A: Kevin Kelly: The Web Runs on Love, Not Greed from AaronSw 00:25:51 A::"High-profile portal sites like Yahoo and AOL will continue to consolidate and demand our attention (and maybe make some money), while millions of smaller sites and hundreds of millions of users do the heavy work of creating content that is used and linked. These will be paid entirely in the gift economy." 00:25:52 commented item A 00:28:01 it was good to have the discussion, cause i haven't really challenged my free software beliefs. bbiab. 00:28:52 Hmm... I think I'm less left-wing than I used to be. Is that good or not, d'ya reckon? 00:29:35 A::Reminds me of [The People's Net|http://yil.com/features/feature.asp?volume=07&issue=07&keyword=peoplesnet] by Ruskoff. 00:29:36 commented item A 00:29:40 good, of course. :) 00:29:45 :-) 00:30:01 do you mean left wing or lower wing? 00:30:20 lower wing? 00:30:28 yeah, as in the political compass 00:30:37 lower wing is libertarian 00:30:43 upper is authoritarian 00:30:58 ah 00:31:18 Er... I think I'm about the same on that axis, but less left wing 00:31:21 i disklike folks who use mailing lists as chat forums. 00:31:36 but you just said you were more left wing 00:31:40 you disk like them? Is disk a verb? 00:31:45 Hmm... I think I'm less left-wing than I used to be. Is that good or not, d'ya reckon? 00:31:46 :-) 00:31:55 oops, i misread that. 00:31:58 bad, of course. 00:31:59 heh, heh 00:32:09 Yeah, well you're as left as they get 00:32:15 Heh. 00:32:40 Your arguments about the Euro demonstrated that you've been brainwashed by the conservative British media. 00:32:43 To you, Tony Benn is an authoritarian conservative :-) 00:32:45 sbp: it is: v : draw a harrow over (land) [syn: {harrow}] 00:32:57 Heh heh heh. 00:33:00 disk? great 00:33:18 I argued about the Euro? 00:33:26 Oh right, I guess I did 00:33:39 I don't listen to the conservative British media. They're rather silly 00:33:39 Must be too much BBC 24 00:34:30 Dunno where I got it from 00:34:57 Doid explained to me that the Euro is a political, not an economic thing. 00:35:04 Which makes sense. 00:35:16 Yeah, sure 00:35:21 But now I'm not sure I like it, since it's all about globalization. 00:35:43 I mean, if you unify the european governments into one, there's not going to be much hope for diversity 00:36:03 hmm, i wish i knew where my political compass score was. 00:36:05 My problem with it is that it seems to involve countries whose economic policies don't tradionally fit with one anothers 00:36:13 Do the test again 00:36:18 It was so long... 00:36:30 Pff, didn't take more than five minutes 00:36:39 Perhaps you're undecided :-) 00:36:48 er... indecisive 00:37:15 Heh, heh. 00:37:20 OK, I'm taking it again. 00:37:42 Good, good 00:37:46 * sbp digs out his score 00:38:13 [[[ 00:38:13 Economic Left/Right: -2.13 00:38:14 Authoritarian/Libertarian: -4.21 00:38:14 ]]] 00:38:26 .wn protectionism 00:38:28 protectionism defined as: 00:38:29 - n : the policy of imposing duties or quotas on imports in order to protect home industries from overseas competition 00:39:05 Interesting issue 00:39:22 Argh, how am i supposed to know what they mean by "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." 00:39:30 Is that in the Islamic or Jewish sense? 00:39:35 Yeah, some of the questions were crappily vague 00:39:45 I'll assume Islamic. 00:39:51 And they didn't let you do neutral 00:39:57 Draconian 00:40:13 .wn draconian 00:40:14 Draconian defined as: 00:40:15 - adj : of or relating to Draco or his harsh code of laws; "Draconian measures" [syn: {Draconian}] 00:40:19 ok 00:40:23 if I was neutral on an issue, the next time I'd come across a question I was neutral on, I score it the other way 00:40:46 are there differing Islamic and Jewish sense? 00:41:12 do you mean senses? 00:41:17 Heh! "Good parents sometimes have to spank their children, to teach them right from wrong." 00:41:18 yes 00:41:49 Probably differening positions of it in Islam, but Judaism's position is pretty clear. 00:41:58 (i.e. it means an eye for the value of an eye) 00:43:33 erm... I think you mean the value of an eye for an eye 00:44:02 err, something like that ;) 00:44:13 Never write a statute 00:45:12 [[[ 00:45:13 Economic Left/Right: -5.00 00:45:13 Authoritarian/Libertarian: -8.72 00:45:14 ]]] 00:45:20 heh heh heh 00:45:24 wow 00:45:41 i wonder why i'm so far right 00:46:08 I was wondering that 00:46:16 ok, time for dinner. 00:46:19 c'ya 00:46:23 c'ya 00:46:51 Pff, Aaron's gone all Libertarian on us 00:47:18 or as the policical compass says "anarchy" 00:47:37 em-mit has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 00:47:44 i.e. anarchic 00:48:49 * sbp starts to read up on TKInter again 00:48:59 Hmm... I really don't like TKinter; can't get into it 01:02:18 OTOH, IDLE is wonderful 01:03:23 wingide rulz 01:03:29 :) 01:03:41 .google wingide 01:03:43 wingide: http://www.archaeopteryx.com 01:04:07 i've stopped using emacs for python dev because of it. saves so much typing. much nicer than komodo for python dev. the source browser is excellent for looking at new packages that your exploring. 01:05:15 heh: """Wing IDE is written primarily in Python, so it's easy to debug (with itself)""" - http://archaeopteryx.com/wingide/hilites 01:07:28 hazmat: you actually used komodo? 01:08:11 i'm a total anarchist! 01:08:27 argh! it returns 01:08:59 Aaron, write a GUI interface for browser.py 01:09:03 Put it on your TODO list 01:09:07 Heh heh 01:09:20 you could use espygui ;p 01:09:22 Aw... I was serious :-) 01:09:28 .google espygui 01:09:29 no results found. 01:09:29 I tried to modify some of ?!ng's TK stuff for rdf graph visualization, but it's too confusing 01:09:33 tav: i got a free commercial license from AS 01:09:41 Pff, it doesn't exist according to Google 01:09:51 it doesn't exist 01:09:53 period 01:09:55 :-) 01:09:57 liar 01:10:02 tav: plus i was working with developers on windoze at the time so it helped to have a common dev env. 01:10:03 you lie so fucking much AaronSw 01:10:07 well, it exists in tav's head 01:10:17 apologies 01:10:21 i have a dll here that says you are a liar 01:10:40 I'd like to hear it say that. 01:10:49 I didn't know you built in text to speech! 01:10:54 :-) 01:10:57 and AI 01:10:59 tav: i found it more interesting as an example of using the mozilla arch to create cross platform apps. 01:11:06 ah 01:11:09 it's a good xul app 01:11:18 i used it to learn a lot of xul 01:11:32 tav, you need to learn the difference between lying and not being omniscient. 01:11:41 heh, heh 01:11:51 just because you... 01:11:53 but, as to practically being useful by itself... 01:12:04 -- 01:12:04 it doesn't exist 01:12:05 period 01:12:05 -- 01:12:35 you should then say "it doesn't exist afaik" or somewhat 01:13:02 set your client up to add an afaik, fwiw, ianal after everything i say 01:13:31 no, the period is what i have qualms with 01:13:48 you just don't go around spreading lies like that 01:14:06 sheesh 01:14:14 it wasn't like you weren't here to correct me 01:14:23 and the period was to distinguish between not being on google 01:16:44 where's that espian compass thing? 01:16:57 .google espian political compass 01:16:59 no results found. 01:17:19 logster, grep espian-political 01:18:04 I'm logging. I found 1 answer for 'espian-political' 01:18:05 0) 2002-01-10 01:17:19 logster, grep espian-political 01:18:09 hmz 01:18:16 logster, grep espians-political 01:18:25 I'm logging. I found 3 answers for 'espians-political' 01:18:26 0) 2002-01-10 01:18:16 logster, grep espians-political 01:18:27 1) 2002-01-06 20:52:30 http://mu2.espnow.com/~talon/html/espians-political-views-graphical.htm 01:18:28 2) 2002-01-06 20:51:54 espians-political-views-graphical.htm 01:20:14 wow, i'm right next to tav 01:20:22 Ooh! Poor you 01:20:23 * tav runs 01:20:24 :-) 01:20:33 what's your score? 01:20:35 the "you" was directed at either one of you 01:20:42 lol 01:20:43 [[[ 01:20:44 Economic Left/Right: -5.00 01:20:44 Authoritarian/Libertarian: -8.72 01:20:44 ]]] 01:20:44 Economic Left/Right: -5.00 01:20:44 Authoritarian/Libertarian: -8.72 01:20:48 blargh 01:20:54 tav -4.69 -8.12 01:21:22 wow, you're more extreme than tav 01:21:30 heh! 01:23:23 IIP should be plexified 01:23:26 .google 0x90 01:23:27 IIP: http://www.invisiblenet.net/iip 01:23:28 0x90: http://linux-ntfs.sourceforge.net/ntfs/attributes/index_root.html 01:23:37 Yeah 01:24:26 0x90: """This is the root node of the B+ tree that implements an index (e.g. a directory).""". Er yeah. Of course 01:24:29 IIP: http://www.invisiblenet.net/iip 01:24:32 .google IIP 01:24:34 IIP: http://usinfo.state.gov 01:25:53 iip should not be plexified 01:25:57 iip is a stupid idea 01:26:11 why? 01:26:16 we're all about plexified anonymous irc 01:26:28 why irc? 01:26:32 .wn plexification 01:26:34 IRC is just another protocol that can sit on the Plex 01:26:44 yeah, why not? 01:26:49 You put out a bit of data, someone else scoops it up 01:26:57 that's the Plex all over 01:27:19 and if you digitally encrypt it, then you have secure channels 01:27:39 iip is just a lousy form of cryptobox 01:27:51 .google cryptobox 01:27:52 cryptobox: http://cryptobox.sourceforge.net 01:27:54 tav's in a grumpy mood, it seems 01:28:39 quite true 01:29:00 but, point still stands 01:29:25 if people didn't feel the need to reinvent the wheel the everytime, we'd be so much further along 01:30:04 it's O.K. reinventing the wheel as long as you come up with a better wheel 01:30:19 of course, that didn't happen to the actual wheel until mag. rims 01:30:34 i disagree with tav 01:30:55 sbp: but most often than not, in attempting to reinvent the wheel people create fucking squares 01:31:01 yeah 01:31:03 now playing Themes - A Team.alt 01:31:16 hey, take it to #nowplaying :-) 01:31:20 fuck you 01:31:23 heh, heh, heh 01:31:47 i used to love this show 01:31:55 what's TPSFKARM - The Postal Service Formerly Known As Royal Mail called now? 01:32:01 it seemed to be called royal mail when i was there 01:32:06 consignia 01:32:07 Yeah, it was many people's 80's favourite 01:32:09 'Consignia' 01:32:21 where'd they get a stupid name like that? 01:32:23 Yep. Odd name, I reckon 01:32:25 did they privatize it or somehting? 01:32:29 Computer generated, I believe 01:32:30 stupid fucked up idiots 01:32:31 Privatize: yep 01:32:40 Stupid Jeffrey Mamet. 01:33:26 Every time we privatize something in the U.K., we think "ooh, that's good, we'll get better service", but instead it just sucks even more 01:33:32 if i die, before i'm 27 01:33:46 someone please carry things out to the end, and change the world for me 01:33:59 Aaron will 01:34:01 yeah, thus the Jeffrey Mamet quip, sbp. 01:34:06 sbp, yeah, right. 01:34:23 i thought it was going to take 5 years, tav. 01:34:37 01:35:17 Jeffrey Mamet? 01:35:36 Didn't you see that hilarious documentary on channel 4? 01:35:43 urgh tv 01:35:52 what else will you do in london? 01:35:53 Obviously not 01:35:54 :-) 01:36:03 it was pretty funny 01:37:02 Interviewer: So privatizing the rail will make it faster and more reliable? 01:37:03 Mamet: Well... folks will have a choice of trains... we'll put them all on the track and they can bump into each other and fight it out 01:37:03 Interviewer: So consumers get more choice? 01:37:03 Mamet: Well... they can get on a train, enjoy themselves, and maybe -- just maybe go somewhere. 01:37:06 -- 01:37:41 Interviewer: So as an adviser to the government, did you give them good advice? 01:37:41 Mamet: Of course, I don't think I ever gave them a piece of advice that didn't help me in some way. 01:37:41 -- 01:37:59 heh, heh 01:38:07 heh 01:38:14 no, tav 01:38:21 hmz? 01:38:21 it worth worth a double "heh" 01:38:23 not single 01:38:31 i don't do double hehs 01:38:31 it was a really funny show 01:38:41 i do 'heh', 'hehe', 'hehehe' 01:38:54 ah. Well, it's probably a "hehe" on your scale, then 01:39:06 but I'm not sure. It's difficult to translate 01:39:20 s/it/it's/ 01:39:30 heh, heh: http://maur.espnow.com/files/Salutations_from_Maur_and_ESPgod.avi 01:39:33 just use .translate dek-eng 01:39:49 note the two hehs. 01:39:56 thanks 01:39:56 such a large file tho 01:40:06 wtf is it with the hehs ? 01:40:36 hmz, coming onto irc hasn't been inspiring today 01:40:36 we like discussing them. It's one of the primary aims of #swhack 01:40:51 go someplace else, then 01:40:52 you haven't exactly been very inspired. 01:40:52 hmz, how do you deal with death? 01:41:12 ah, it all makes sense now 01:41:14 we don't tend to discuss that here. Try #esp 01:41:45 anette's there, it'd depress her 01:42:35 Hmm... 01:43:12 I suppose that #swhack is a refuge/escape/shelter from the drugery and senselessness of the modern era 01:43:17 for someone whose so at ease with his own death, i fucking suck at handling others' death 01:43:21 er... drudgery 01:43:33 swhack is what? 01:43:39 a refuge/escape/shelter from the drugery and senselessness of the modern era 01:43:48 so who died? 01:44:14 * tav wonders if he lives in the same world as sbp 01:44:16 if you don't mind 01:44:26 Probably not 01:44:29 me asking 01:44:31 an old friend of mine 01:44:44 not too old, late 50s, cancer 01:45:07 sorry to hear it. 01:45:29 * sbp too; always is 01:45:29 well, suicide is always an option. but generally i just carry a towel around with me for a day... 01:45:56 Hmm... hadn't thought of that 01:46:09 that's what I'm missing! a towel 01:46:09 argh 01:46:13 That's the last major death I can think of... 01:47:39 AaronSw: is that managing gigabytes book a good read? 01:47:46 now playing DJ Krust & Saul Williams - 01:48:00 hazmat, dunno. haven't gotten very far 01:48:04 hmz, have you heard from oierw? 01:48:13 no, have you heard from his parents? 01:48:42 http://www.heavensfantasy.com/cool/ 01:48:50 You should go down the road and visit him 01:49:24 i should, but i'd like to coordinate first 01:49:50 sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m24-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com))) 01:50:08 sbp (~sean@m24-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 01:53:36 I've had this on my clipboard for a while, I need the space back:- 01:53:37 [[[ 01:53:38 You're just sucking up the P2P/decentralization/anonymity projects, aren't you? I certainly can't accuse you of not researching your background onformation, or getting the right people on board 01:53:39 ]]] 01:53:59 to tav, i assume? 01:54:04 i can accuse him of the latter. ;-) 01:54:13 no, do you ya dipstick 01:54:20 er... "to you" 01:54:23 ah 01:54:32 man, what is it with my typing lately? 01:54:33 oh, in that case i accuse myself 01:54:40 doesn't make it true, tho 01:55:19 Good writing is often defined as "the right words in the right places". I seem to be putting random words in places random 01:55:27 heh 02:08:48 there are a bunch of typos in the math of this chord paper. 02:10:01 which make it hard to understand 02:10:09 like -s where they mean +s 02:11:04 oh, never mind -- that's he sucky font 02:11:08 wow. 02:11:37 that's he? wow? 02:11:58 the, he, same difference 02:12:13 it appears to be #swhack typo day 02:12:44 sbp has changed the topic to: It's ypo day on #swhack! 02:13:07 AaronSw has changed the topic to: Hapy ypo day! 02:13:23 I prefered mine, but heh 02:13:40 I was afraid #swhack will confuse our weblog readers 02:13:53 AaronSw has changed the topic to: It's ypo day! 02:13:56 Well, we could typo all of the weblog items too 02:14:04 Yeah. 02:14:07 :-) 02:14:14 don't we do that already? 02:15:30 hey, this chord paper is making sense now! 02:17:14 really? 02:18:04 yeah, took long enough 02:56:45 What did? 03:06:18 understanding chord 03:06:32 "Where do you come from? Where do you go? Sorry, but that is nothing you would need to know." 03:07:18 Ooh! 03:07:30