IRC log of swhack on 2002-01-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:00:10 [sbp]
sorry, 2.59KB
00:00:28 [AaronSw]
Neat.
00:03:37 [sbp]
O.K., now I need some really crud HTML to test it on
00:03:56 [AaronSw]
it doens't have tidy built-in?
00:04:10 [sbp]
It doesn't need it
00:04:26 [sbp]
I hope :-) That's why I need some crud HTML, to test...
00:07:01 [sbp]
aha:-
00:07:02 [sbp]
[[[
00:07:02 [sbp]
THE SUBARU WEBSITE IS BUILT FOR INTERNET EXPLORER
00:07:02 [sbp]
VERSION 4 OR HIGHER AND NETSCAPE VERSION 4 OR HIGHER. SCREE
00:07:02 [sbp]
N RESOLUTION MUST BE 800x600 OR HIGHER. CLICK ON THE APPROPR
00:07:02 [sbp]
IATE LINK BELOW TO DOWNLOAD THE MOST CURRENT BROWSER VERSION.
00:07:04 [sbp]
<</> HERE> TO ENTER
00:07:06 [sbp]
]]]
00:07:08 [sbp]
- http://www.subaru.com.au/
00:07:33 [sbp]
of course, I can change the browser ID :-)
00:11:27 [tansaku]
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00:11:43 [sbp]
Hmm... somehow, I need to support frames
00:15:27 [AaronSw]
Perhaps you can convince deltab to switch from Links to browser.py
00:16:23 [sbp]
lol
00:36:47 [sbp]
* sbp adds better formatting rules
00:36:53 [sbp]
now it doesn't do st
00:36:57 [sbp]
uff like this wh
00:36:59 [sbp]
ich is good
00:37:08 [sbp]
s/this/this,/
01:06:46 [sbp]
Hmm... it's putting line breaks in <dd> elements for no apparent reason
01:16:11 [sbp]
Hmm... sometimes it adds a /n after <li>, and sometimes it adds two
01:22:29 [sbp]
Aha, solved both problems
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02:11:10 [AaronSw]
Hmm, the DAML/RDF layering discussion is interesting.
02:19:48 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw sends a message to Pat/www-archive about it.
02:21:21 [AaronSw]
Pat Hayes on Pat Hayes: "He also restores antique mechanical clocks, remodels old houses and enjoys arguing with anyone about almost anything."
02:21:25 [AaronSw]
- http://www.coginst.uwf.edu/~phayes/
02:24:07 [AaronSw]
Roy Fielding on why he's in the TAG: "[To] Figure out what W3C WGs have been working on while I've been out of touch..."
02:27:55 [AaronSw]
Ian says the IRC logs will be public, but they're member-confidential right now...
02:28:29 [sbp]
my browser has a first name | it's browser dot pee why | my browser has a second name | it's browser dot pee why
02:29:03 [sbp]
Yeah, but it's nice that the minutes are public
02:29:40 [AaronSw]
That's true.
02:31:50 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw wonders who daveo100 is in the IRC log
02:31:56 [AaronSw]
must be David Orchard
02:37:43 [AaronSw]
lol: Dan Connolly: If the entire web disappears behind "POST" due to web services, I will be annoyed.
02:37:47 [AaronSw]
That's an understatement.
02:37:51 [sbp]
heh, heh, heh
02:43:06 [AaronSw]
lol: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2002Jan/0014
02:43:13 [AaronSw]
Go Joseph Reagle, go!
02:44:46 [sbp]
lol, neat
02:49:08 [AaronSw]
The custom Google setup for the W3C is pretty cheap, IMO. I mean, passing HTML thru the URL?
02:49:46 [sbp]
Come again?
02:49:52 [deus_x]
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02:49:57 [AaronSw]
like http://www.google.com/custom?cof=T%3Ablack%3BLW%3A72%3BALC%3A%23ff3300%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FIcons%2Fw3c_home%3BLC%3A%23000099%3BLH%3A48%3BBGC%3Awhite%3BAH%3Aleft%3BVLC%3A%23660066%3BGL%3A0%3BAWFID%3A0b9847e42caf283e%3B&sitesearch=w3.org&domains=w3.org
02:50:25 [sbp]
heh, yeah...
02:50:35 [sbp]
Funny when you take that bit out
02:50:40 [sbp]
or even better, replace it
02:50:46 [AaronSw]
Heh.
02:51:15 [sbp]
Hmm... nothing happens when you replace it. That sucks
02:51:47 [AaronSw]
Hmm, that's really weird.
02:52:02 [sbp]
>>> import urllib
02:52:02 [sbp]
>>> urllib.unquote("T%3Ablack%3BLW%3A72%3BALC%3A%23ff3300%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FIcons%2Fw3c_home%3BLC%3A%23000099%3BLH%3A48%3BBGC%3Awhite%3BAH%3Aleft%3BVLC%3A%23660066%3BGL%3A0%3BAWFID%3A0b9847e42caf283e%3B")
02:52:02 [sbp]
'T:black;LW:72;ALC:#ff3300;L:http://www.w3.org/Icons/w3c_home;LC:#000099;LH:48;BGC:white;AH:left;VLC:#660066;GL:0;AWFID:0b9847e42caf283e;'
02:52:03 [sbp]
>>>
02:52:19 [AaronSw]
Ah.
02:52:22 [sbp]
now *that's* really weird
02:52:33 [AaronSw]
It looks like they just signed up for the Free SiteSearch service.
02:52:37 [sbp]
Yeah
02:52:59 [sbp]
Good idea, too
02:53:28 [AaronSw]
You should do that for Infomesh or something.
02:54:06 [sbp]
heh: http://www.google.com/custom?cof=&domains=w3.org&q=blargh&sitesearch=w3.org
02:54:13 [sbp]
infomesh? Why bother?
02:54:28 [sbp]
I'll probably do it for mysterylights or something
02:54:29 [deus_x]
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02:55:26 [AaronSw]
W3C should upgrade to Google Gold.
02:55:41 [sbp]
Google Gold? What do you get with that?
02:55:47 [AaronSw]
See http://www.google.com/services/silver_gold.html
02:55:56 [AaronSw]
You get to put any sort of HTML in.
02:56:18 [sbp]
Neat
02:56:51 [sbp]
ooh: http://www.google.com/custom?cof=&domains=w3.org&q=blargh&sitesearch=w3.org
02:57:33 [AaronSw]
what's the difference?
02:57:48 [sbp]
Note who all of the search results are by
02:58:05 [AaronSw]
of course
02:58:09 [AaronSw]
Ooh: http://www.google.com/custom?cof=&domains=infomesh.net&q=blargh&sitesearch=infomesh.net
02:58:31 [sbp]
Heh, what?
02:58:41 [AaronSw]
Heh heh: http://www.google.com/custom?q=blargh&sitesearch=logicerror.com
02:59:00 [sbp]
Ah, they're still down to me :-)
02:59:21 [sbp]
and all of those in: http://www.google.com/custom?q=blargh&sitesearch=blogspace.com
02:59:22 [deltab]
hmm, custom looks nicer than the default
03:01:29 [AaronSw]
Hmm, I find blargh more common than ping, contrary to what the Jargon File says.
03:01:50 [sbp]
I find that the meaning of "blargh" according to the Jargon File is wrong
03:02:06 [AaronSw]
Really?
03:02:07 [sbp]
It is now quite clearly a metasyntactic variable first and foremost. Get with the times
03:02:27 [AaronSw]
Only in your phenomic little world. ;-)
03:02:42 [sbp]
blargh
03:03:49 [AaronSw]
Cool, Roger was accepted. http://www.crypto.com/papers/fc02accepted.txt
03:04:58 [AaronSw]
ooh, someone needs to buy semanticweb.ai
03:05:10 [AaronSw]
even better: semanticweb.is.ai
03:05:57 [AaronSw]
i wonder what country .ai is
03:07:03 [sbp]
or thesw.is.ai
03:07:07 [sbp]
Hmm... no
03:07:15 [sbp]
http://the.semantic.web.is.ai/
03:07:31 [sbp]
http://the.semantic.web.is.ai/so/f**k/you
03:07:36 [AaronSw]
heh heh
03:07:39 [sbp]
:-)
03:07:54 [sbp]
and its rival site: http://the.semantic.web.is.not.ai/so/f**k/you
03:09:38 [sbp]
Oh feckle, I can't get preformatted text to work properly
03:11:20 [sbp]
ah, I think I've got it
03:11:47 [AaronSw]
What an odd error:
03:11:48 [AaronSw]
dyld: /Users/aaronsw/Sputnix.app/Contents/MacOS/Sputnix can't get realpath of executable: /Users/aaronsw/Sputnix.app/Contents/MacOS/Sputnix (No such file or directory, errno = 2)
03:11:51 [sbp]
I need to make it spew the text out earlier so that it can recognize that it's still part of a preformatted block
03:11:58 [sbp]
Ooh, that is odd
03:12:00 [sbp]
dyld?
03:12:14 [deltab]
dynamic loader
03:12:36 [AaronSw]
i'm having problems like that all over.
03:12:38 [sbp]
Ooh, browser.py is now 3.86KB
03:12:44 [AaronSw]
like i can't even hopen the dyld man page!
03:12:52 [AaronSw]
perhaps I should reboot.
03:13:43 [deltab]
sbp: where is that?
03:14:10 [sbp]
Where is what? If you mean browser.py, it's not on the Web yet
03:14:26 [deltab]
shucks
03:14:47 [sbp]
Don't worry, it's no contest for Links
03:15:18 [sbp]
Aha! Preformatting works
03:16:20 [sbp]
Hmm... urllib is being really slow in getting the page
03:17:11 [sbp]
I'll probably switch to httplib at some point, anyway
03:18:48 [sbp]
Heh, forgot to add "span" to the list of inline elements...
03:20:16 [sbp]
actually, I guess that's a stupid way to do it
03:20:37 [sbp]
Most browsers render anything that they don't know, and just exclude the ones in the <head> etc.
03:21:43 [sbp]
of course, I also want people to be able to configure it, and perhaps to eventually recognize stylesheets
03:23:10 [sbp]
Ooh, funny: it barfs on the news item headers on the W3C homepage
03:23:22 [sbp]
<h2><img alt="" [...] />Some text</h2>
03:23:49 [deltab]
why?
03:23:54 [sbp]
I'm not sure
03:24:13 [sbp]
It just gives "@ " as the output, instead of "@ Some text"
03:26:11 [sbp]
Hmm... double line break in front of items. Not good
03:27:53 [sbp]
Wow, making a browser is very easy and very difficult at the same time
03:29:14 [sbp]
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03:33:54 [sbp]
ugh: <p><small>An <a href="http://www.aaronsw.com">Aaron Swartz</a> Project</small></p>
03:33:57 [sbp]
small? small?
03:34:08 [sbp]
on blogspace.com
03:34:24 [sbp]
I only noticed because my browser doesn't recognize crap like <small>
03:34:59 [tav]
tonight you're going to hear music you never heard before!
03:35:07 [sbp]
come again?
03:39:44 [sbp]
There we go: I changed it so that it spews out all data now except in the <head> (and except for <title>, which is also spewed)
03:39:55 [sbp]
s/and //
03:40:26 [sbp]
Hmm... at the moment, we get stuff like:-
03:40:27 [sbp]
[[[
03:40:27 [sbp]
Also, we host the <<swhack/> #swhack Website>, complete with
03:40:28 [sbp]
<<swhack/chatlogs/> chat logs> and <<swhack/weblog/> weblog>.
03:40:33 [sbp]
]]] - http://blogspace.com/
03:40:49 [sbp]
the <<URI> title> syntax lets you know that there's a link there
03:41:15 [sbp]
I'm wondering if a) I should change the style b) I should put the base URI onto any relative links
03:41:37 [deltab]
not while displaying them like that
03:41:50 [sbp]
no... I suppose it would be a bit unweildy
03:50:51 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw is watching a fascinating show about deaf culture on PBS.
03:51:12 [sbp]
Hmm... I need to comply to "1.9 When a Web resource includes metadata that may be recognized by the user agent, allow the user to view that metadata." in CUAP
03:51:28 [sbp]
Ooh, I could have a -meta flag
03:51:56 [sbp]
it could get the usual <link> and <meta> stuff, but also follow a link to some RDF :-)
03:52:24 [sbp]
Hmph... if the W3C's RDF Validator used GET, I could run it through that
03:54:03 [sbp]
BUG: always misses the space before the first inline element in a block level element
03:54:45 [sbp]
Hmph, why is it doing that?
03:56:04 [sbp]
ah, of course. Duh
03:56:52 [sbp]
I used string.strip instead of string.lstrip
03:57:05 [atariBed]
atariBed is now known as atariboy
03:58:34 [AaronSw]
Wow, thay was quite a show.
04:02:16 [AaronSw]
@ http://www.pbs.org/wnet/soundandfury/
04:02:29 [chumpster]
A: Sound and Fury - Home from AaronSw
04:02:50 [AaronSw]
A:|Sound and Fury
04:02:51 [chumpster]
titled item A
04:03:14 [AaronSw]
A::An absolutely wonderful documentary. Fascinating and informative, it explained a world to me that I never knew existed.
04:03:14 [chumpster]
commented item A
04:03:25 [AaronSw]
A::I want to learn sign language some day.
04:03:26 [chumpster]
commented item A
04:03:43 [AaronSw]
AaronSw has changed the topic to: Canada: Our Eskimo Neighbors to the South
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04:22:44 [sbp]
Aaron (or anyone), do you know who said """If you're going to give out a press release in PDF, you may as well bury it in your back yard."""?
04:22:55 [AaronSw]
Yeah.
04:23:02 [AaronSw]
Geoff in an email to me. why?
04:23:03 [sbp]
Can you tell me?
04:23:15 [sbp]
Ah, right, thanks. I was just writing an email to Stu
04:23:36 [sbp]
Er... Geoff... Geoff Freed?
04:23:56 [sbp]
[Stu sent me a PDF file, so I thought I'd rant a bit about PDF]
04:24:44 [AaronSw]
No, Geoff from TidBITS.
04:24:54 [AaronSw]
Geoff Duncan
04:25:13 [sbp]
Cool. Many thanks
04:25:42 [AaronSw]
lol: Geoff: "An Apple operating system like a Britney Spears album: slick, but wrong on *so* many levels. (Note to Apple: I want Unix on my desktop the same way Wayne Newton wants me in his backup band. Think about it.) "
04:25:55 [AaronSw]
- http://www.quibble.com/geoff/
04:26:13 [sbp]
heh, heh, heh
04:28:56 [AaronSw]
lol: "[I've been] all but one of the following: dishwasher, lab assistant, technical writer, software test lead, floor washer, story editor, musical arranger, statistical consultant, illustrator, book-vacuumer, and guest lecturer. Guess which one I wasn't."
04:28:58 [AaronSw]
- ibid.
04:29:27 [sbp]
ah, it can now get text/plain too:-
04:29:28 [sbp]
[[[
04:29:29 [sbp]
$ python browser.py http://blogspace.com/swhack/chatlogs/2002-01-09.txt
04:29:29 [sbp]
Getting http://blogspace.com/swhack/chatlogs/2002-01-09.txt...
04:29:29 [sbp]
Got it: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
04:29:29 [sbp]
00:00:10 <sbp> sorry, 2.59KB
04:29:30 [sbp]
00:00:28 <AaronSw> Neat.
04:29:32 [sbp]
[...]
04:29:34 [sbp]
]]]
04:30:12 [sbp]
Guess which one he wasn't? Eek
04:33:38 [sbp]
I'll go with guest lecturer, and overlook the fact that there are only three book-vacuumers in the world
04:33:45 [AaronSw]
But wait! It's more than just a lamp: http://sakots.pekori.jp/imgboard/imgs/img20020107162803.jpg
04:34:43 [sbp]
heh!
04:35:08 [deltab]
haha
04:35:15 [AaronSw]
deltab, wmf is getting: <wmf> Host unknown (Name server: espians.com: no data known)
04:36:13 [deltab]
when doing what?
04:36:20 [AaronSw]
when sending mail to me
04:38:23 [deltab]
well, I don't know why, it's there
04:38:29 [AaronSw]
yeah
04:38:41 [sbp]
Problem on wmf's end, perhaps
04:39:16 [sbp]
Ugh, talk about bloat... browser.py is now 4.33KB!
04:39:53 [tav]
almost doubled!
04:40:41 [sbp]
Oh dear, you
04:40:48 [sbp]
you're right. That's terrible
04:42:22 [sbp]
Hmm... I wonder how we get the response code through urllib2
04:42:56 [sbp]
Pff, it would also be nice if it didn't barf when it came across a 401
04:44:18 [AaronSw]
you get the response code from errors, i think
04:44:23 [sbp]
Argh, trailing whitespace in pre...
04:44:32 [sbp]
But 200 doesn't give an error
04:45:19 [AaronSw]
well that's why it's 200
04:45:46 [sbp]
Phew, that's better...
04:46:04 [sbp]
Yeah, but I want the code anyway. 20x shouldn't give an error
04:46:11 [sbp]
neither should 30x
04:47:21 [AaronSw]
it's like object.status or something, isn't it?
04:48:17 [sbp]
dunno - I'll look it up properly when I get back to it (I'm back on the HTML parser again)
04:49:17 [AaronSw]
Have you seen my HTML->Text deeley?
04:49:38 [AaronSw]
It's in TCL, but I like it a lot.
04:49:40 [sbp]
textify.tcl? Yeah. Not seen the source, though
04:49:52 [AaronSw]
Yeah, http://developer.arsdigita.com/api-doc/proc-view?proc=ad_html_to_text&source_p=1
04:49:55 [sbp]
But it's in TCL anyway, not Python...
04:50:05 [sbp]
It is cool though, I'll give you that
04:50:22 [AaronSw]
Ooh, I'm on the WGBH website! http://www.wgbh.org/api-doc/proc-view?proc=ad_html_to_text
04:50:23 [AaronSw]
:-)
04:51:27 [sbp]
Hmm... I prefer my link syntax
04:51:51 [sbp]
A matter of preference, I guess. I should give a choice
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04:54:12 [sbp]
Hmm... I'm not quite sure how to do block vs. flow
04:54:50 [sbp]
Roughly, I have a set of elements that print '/n/n' after themselves (block), a set that print '\n' (flow)m and a set that print nothing (inline)
04:55:35 [sbp]
But that means that lists are <ul>(block)<li/>(flow)</> and so they get \n\n\n printed after them, which is a line break too many
04:58:01 [sbp]
oh, heh, unless I make ul flow
04:58:21 [sbp]
Ugh. See how terrible my HTML parser is?
04:59:12 [sbp]
Ooh, that didn't work
04:59:27 [AaronSw]
yeah, i like the way we did it in ad_html_to_text
04:59:33 [AaronSw]
it solves those problems nicely
04:59:56 [sbp]
I won't ask
05:00:16 [AaronSw]
I don't remember how we solved them, so you'll have to figure it out yourself.
05:00:25 [AaronSw]
I think we had a linebreak buffer...
05:00:39 [AaronSw]
so if it had just spit out a line break, it wouldn't do it again.
05:00:57 [sbp]
Ugh. That's the kind of hacking that I want to avoid
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05:02:38 [sbp]
Hmm... doesn't make sense: when I have ul as block, it appends two new lines. As flow, none
05:04:37 [AaronSw]
hacking? I thought it was reasonably elegant. The element would set linebreak = 1, and then another piece of code would take care of it.
05:04:50 [AaronSw]
linebreaks wouldn't pile up since they'd always be 0 or 1
05:05:20 [sbp]
I do something a bit like that
05:06:25 [deltab]
that's how margin collapsing is done in CSS
05:07:16 [deltab]
the total space is the larger of the two
05:07:35 [deltab]
or something like that
05:10:32 [AaronSw]
Interesting: http://ali.apple.com/events/aliqttv/
05:10:55 [sbp]
aha, I think I've worked it out
05:12:02 [AaronSw]
I should probably go to sleep now. nite
05:13:50 [sbp]
Fixed
05:13:52 [sbp]
'night
05:14:26 [AaronSw]
Goals for tomorrow: grok Chord, find best way to exercise.
05:14:31 [sbp]
argh, no, not fixed...
05:15:32 [AaronSw]
sleep
05:16:33 [sbp]
ah, I think that the whitespace in the end of the <ul> is being pciked up
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05:38:02 [sbp]
There, fixed with a lot of hacking
05:38:06 [sbp]
Gotta run
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tansaku2 is now known as tansaku
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13:31:33 [BenSw`]
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13:31:51 [BenSw`]
Hello
13:50:08 [AaronSw]
hi
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atariMovie is now known as atariboy
14:06:23 [AaronSw]
heh! http://www.scripting.com/images/2002/01/08/pixar.jpg
14:32:52 [em-mit]
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14:34:51 [AaronSw]
hey em
14:43:09 [em-mit]
howdy AaronSw :) how was the trip?
14:43:23 [AaronSw]
it was great, thanks
14:43:56 [AaronSw]
how was your vacation?
14:44:52 [em-mit]
very short (albiet enjoyable)... www2002 consumed a chuck of it, but i did manage to do some much needed sysadmining, and coding
15:00:11 [deus_x]
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17:24:05 [sbp]
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17:30:24 [sbp]
* sbp hacks on his browser a bit
17:44:49 [sbp]
* sbp adds FTP capabilities
18:12:10 [sbp]
cool, done
18:12:55 [sbp]
Argh, browser size is a lofty 5.25KB
18:28:09 [AaronSw]
@ http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/lessig/content/audio/I_Thought_We_Knew_That.mp3
18:28:13 [chumpster]
B: http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/lessig/content/audio/I_Thought_We_Knew_That.mp3 from AaronSw
18:28:22 [AaronSw]
B:|I Thought We Knew That.mp3
18:28:22 [chumpster]
titled item B
18:29:00 [AaronSw]
B::Larry Lessig MP3s! Rocking...
18:29:01 [chumpster]
commented item B
18:29:15 [AaronSw]
B::Check out some [more Lessig audio/video|http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/lessig/content/audio/]
18:29:16 [chumpster]
commented item B
18:30:01 [AaronSw]
Wow, this browser is going to be quite something when you're done, isn't it?
18:30:27 [AaronSw]
B::via Zooko in #nowplaying
18:30:27 [chumpster]
commented item B
18:30:34 [AaronSw]
join #nowplaying and tell us what you're listening to
18:33:38 [AaronSw]
B::lol: Gates: "We did not attempt to monopolize the browser market." Lessig: "Only a moron would think of saying that."
18:33:39 [chumpster]
commented item B
18:35:32 [sbp]
quite something: heh, heh
18:38:54 [sbp]
I should learn TKInter, really, and go a GUI browser
18:39:00 [sbp]
s/go/do/
18:39:47 [sbp]
But can you imagine programming a GUI? Aaaaaargh!
18:40:19 [sbp]
The problem with that is that you have to cater for every little mouse click, tabbing, window geometry, and so on
18:42:58 [sbp]
Well, this can do FTP, -head, -text, HTML rendering, and pipe in a URI, so that'll probably do
18:43:07 [sbp]
it's not as if I'm actually going to use it for anything
18:43:28 [sbp]
although I might use it for HEAD: I can never remember the cmd line for lynx
18:43:56 [sbp]
and it
18:44:14 [sbp]
it's good for getting a page that you can paste into IRC or email: it formats it, putting the links inline
18:57:52 [AaronSw]
I use curl for HEAD.
18:57:58 [AaronSw]
curl -I http://url.foo
18:58:10 [AaronSw]
and textify.tcl for pasting into an email.
18:58:25 [AaronSw]
It'd be cool to see you do a GUI -- I saw a lot of RDF graph visualization GUIs when I was at ILRT.
19:14:28 [AaronSw]
.seen anubis3
19:14:40 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw pokes xena
19:14:45 [AaronSw]
xena is losing her edge
19:14:46 [xena]
anubis3 seen joining #infoanarchy ~ 30 day(s) 15 hr(s) 26 min(s) 45 sec(s) ago
19:15:00 [AaronSw]
30 days... eek
19:17:17 [sbp]
sbp has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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20:05:53 [sbp]
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20:06:15 [AaronSw]
sbp, did you hear about #nowplaying?
20:06:26 [sbp]
no?
20:06:44 [AaronSw]
it's where we share what we're listening to
20:07:31 [sbp]
Heh, neat
20:08:22 [AaronSw]
Perfect for you. ;-)
20:08:57 [sbp]
damn straight
20:14:43 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw wonders how the icon for his copy of Acrobat Reader got to be a folder.
20:15:34 [AaronSw]
a
20:19:24 [AaronSw]
test
20:30:00 [AaronSw]
ouch, looks like Bernstein got a patent letter
20:30:01 [AaronSw]
http://markBernstein.org/Jan0201.html#note_3404
20:31:17 [sbp]
heh: """[...] the patent is written in esoterically amateur language that seems tantamount to gibberish. I doubt if anyone knows what this patent is trying to say."""
20:32:46 [sbp]
Ooh, it uses httplib now, but is still only 5.43KB
20:34:04 [sbp]
argh, but it doesn't handle redirects
20:36:35 [sbp]
Which is good actually - more flexibility
20:45:46 [sbp]
Hmm... since I started using httplib, it's slowed down again. urllib was slow too. Only urllib2 opened HTTP URIs with any speed
20:46:56 [sbp]
THe FTP part kicks ass - it streams the file out *as* its downloading it!
20:47:59 [AaronSw]
Heh, heh, heh:
20:48:01 [AaronSw]
.google sha512
20:48:03 [xena]
sha512: http://blogspace.com/swhack/weblog
20:48:07 [AaronSw]
:-)
20:48:10 [sbp]
hooray!
20:48:30 [AaronSw]
but I clearly need to link to it more, since we've not been indexed in a while
20:49:05 [sbp]
YEah
20:49:16 [sbp]
ARgh, DAmn IT
20:49:39 [AaronSw]
he
20:49:42 [AaronSw]
HEh
20:50:02 [sbp]
MUST... RELEASE... SHIFT... KEy...
20:50:21 [AaronSw]
odd... it doesn't recognize a backlink from aaronsw.com
20:51:42 [sbp]
weird
20:53:20 [AaronSw]
yeah, it is. especially since i was counting on those links to give us major google power
20:57:43 [sbp]
heh, heh
20:58:00 [sbp]
ask jillium, perhaps
20:59:54 [AaronSw]
i clicked the "report a link you wanted to see here" thing and filled it out
21:00:09 [AaronSw]
how many bits are in a sha512 hash?
21:00:51 [sbp]
Hmm... I wonder
21:00:59 [AaronSw]
i would have guessed 512, but my calculations return 2048
21:01:23 [sbp]
Your calculations therefore suck
21:01:42 [AaronSw]
my calculation: len(sha512.hexdigest())*16
21:01:46 [AaronSw]
what's wrong with that?
21:02:04 [AaronSw]
even if i'm off by two that leaves me with 1024
21:02:19 [sbp]
try multiplying by 4
21:02:26 [sbp]
instead of 16, that is
21:02:30 [AaronSw]
why 4?
21:02:35 [sbp]
just try it
21:02:41 [sbp]
what answer do you get?
21:02:43 [AaronSw]
it obviously works
21:02:51 [AaronSw]
128*4=512
21:02:59 [sbp]
There you go, then. Now let's say no more about it
21:03:11 [AaronSw]
That'd be cheating.
21:03:19 [sbp]
Nah
21:04:05 [AaronSw]
let's see... if it was in binary i'd multiply by 1
21:04:40 [sbp]
can you do print sha512.hexdigest()
21:04:46 [AaronSw]
'f7fbba6e0636f890e56fbbf3283e524c6fa3204ae298382d624741d0dc6638326e282c41be5e4254d8820772c5518a2c5a8c0c7f7eda19594a7eb539453e1ed7'
21:07:36 [AaronSw]
it appears your *4 metric is correct (it works on sha1) but i don't know why
21:08:45 [sbp]
* sbp neither
21:11:20 [sbp]
The lack of SHA 512 in Python is quite annoying
21:11:36 [sbp]
s/quite/very/
21:12:31 [AaronSw]
Heh.
21:12:54 [sbp]
and sha512.exe won't take a pipe
21:13:02 [sbp]
ooh, I could write a Python wrapper for it
21:13:12 [sbp]
what methods does sha512 have?
21:13:20 [AaronSw]
same as usual:
21:13:25 [AaronSw]
['__del__', '__doc__', '__init__', '__module__', 'blocksize', 'copy', 'digest', 'digestsize', 'hexdigest', 'shaContext', 'update']
21:13:25 [AaronSw]
>>
21:13:38 [sbp]
Mmmkay
21:16:26 [AaronSw]
oh, i figured it out
21:16:40 [AaronSw]
you need to multiply by the number of bits per character, not the number of characters per character.
21:16:51 [AaronSw]
i.e. the square root of the latter.
21:16:56 [sbp]
ah
21:24:03 [AaronSw]
what's the keyword for assert in python?
21:25:05 [AaronSw]
hmm, it is assert
21:25:15 [sbp]
heh, heh
21:25:32 [sbp]
Python: making everything too easy
21:25:57 [sbp]
does sha512 have 'new'?
21:26:07 [sbp]
x = sha512.new()
21:40:46 [sbp]
getting there:-
21:40:47 [sbp]
[[[
21:40:47 [sbp]
$ python
21:40:47 [sbp]
Python 2.2 (#1, Dec 31 2001, 15:21:18)
21:40:47 [sbp]
[GCC 2.95.3-5 (cygwin special)] on cygwin
21:40:47 [sbp]
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
21:40:49 [sbp]
>>> import sha512
21:40:51 [sbp]
>>> x = sha512.new()
21:40:53 [sbp]
>>> x.update('x')
21:40:55 [sbp]
>>> x.update('blargh')
21:40:57 [sbp]
>>> x.hexdigest()
21:40:59 [sbp]
'SHA512 : sometempfile\r\n\r\n 52e9282e113609adb255c4d797d9c450642f94cf580e0353a4cb9481d53fff58\r\n 524ce1433ed62743e14ae421da539e94fc416c4c49d53c1bf27afa0db6dda748\r\n'
21:41:02 [sbp]
>>>
21:41:06 [sbp]
]]]
21:42:31 [sbp]
aha:-
21:42:32 [sbp]
[[[
21:42:32 [sbp]
>>> x.hexdigest()
21:42:32 [sbp]
'4a59e80b6a5bfb4c8d8a592086a290b347c5d2b62418abe878cfa8037063ca268edeadd184bc3d54bf683584f294caf7a3109c90458b45f93d25587618070fa1'
21:42:33 [sbp]
]]]
21:43:09 [AaronSw]
cool
21:43:20 [AaronSw]
can you just do x.new('foo').hexdigest()
21:43:21 [AaronSw]
?
21:43:27 [sbp]
nope, not yet
21:43:56 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw is trying to translate the Chord paper into Python
21:43:59 [AaronSw]
it's slow going
21:44:39 [AaronSw]
I understand how Chord works, but I don't understand the paper so well.
21:44:48 [AaronSw]
Maybe i'm missing some math...
21:44:49 [sbp]
[[[
21:44:49 [sbp]
>>> sha512.new('blargh').hexdigest()
21:44:50 [sbp]
'4a59e80b6a5bfb4c8d8a592086a290b347c5d2b62418abe878cfa8037063ca268edeadd184bc3d54bf683584f294caf7a3109c90458b45f93d25587618070fa1'
21:44:50 [sbp]
]]]
21:45:58 [AaronSw]
what's sha512.new().__class__?
21:46:35 [Morbus]
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21:46:42 [AaronSw]
hey Morbus
21:46:43 [Morbus]
AaronSw, you said Python was NOT installed by default in OS X, right?
21:47:12 [AaronSw]
I don't recall saying that.
21:47:22 [Morbus]
ok. is python installed by default on OS X?
21:47:39 [AaronSw]
i believe so... either that or with the devtools.
21:47:44 [AaronSw]
is perl installed by default?
21:48:02 [Morbus]
yeah, but you can't use CPAN without the devtools.
21:48:14 [sbp]
[[[
21:48:15 [sbp]
>>> sha512.new().__class__
21:48:15 [sbp]
<class sha512.SHA512 at 0x10145158>
21:48:16 [sbp]
]]]
21:48:19 [Morbus]
that's what i've been told though. i dunno for sure.
21:48:31 [sbp]
Morbus?!
21:48:43 [sbp]
Heh, I thought I was in the wrong channel for a second, there
21:48:50 [AaronSw]
Hmm... maybe it isn't installed by default.
21:48:53 [Morbus]
don't worry, i'm not staying long. just pumping aaron for info, then i'm outta here faster than a d00d at a 0day.
21:49:15 [Morbus]
yeah, i was under that impression too. i can't check though, of course.
21:49:15 [sbp]
Mmmkay
21:49:54 [AaronSw]
Python 2.0 got in /usr/bin somehow
21:50:18 [AaronSw]
let me check other machine ... brb
21:51:36 [BenSW]
* AaronSw twiddles thumbs
21:51:44 [Morbus]
heh, heh.
21:52:05 [BenSW]
<AaronSw> Hmm, terminal isn't opening
21:53:56 [sbp]
heh, heh
21:54:11 [sbp]
Gotta run
21:54:32 [BenSW]
hmm, it's not on here
21:54:51 [BenSW]
<AaronSw> and this has the developer tools
21:55:12 [Morbus]
ok. that's what i needed to know. thank you kindly.
21:55:23 [AaronSw]
np
21:55:27 [Morbus]
Morbus has left #swhack
21:55:43 [AaronSw]
Ooh: http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/unix_apps_utilities/python21.html
21:57:01 [AaronSw]
i'm taking bets on how long it takes tav to join #nowplaying
22:08:45 [AaronSw]
Hmm, Wolfgang Nejdl and Stefan Decker are on the Edutella project.
22:10:22 [AaronSw]
Edutella components include:
22:10:29 [AaronSw]
* Query Service: Standardized query and retrieval of RDF metadata.
22:10:29 [AaronSw]
*Replication Service: Provide data persistence / availability and workload balancing while maintaining data integrity and consistency.
22:10:29 [AaronSw]
*Mapping Service: Translate between different metadata vocabularies to enable interoperability between different peers.
22:10:29 [AaronSw]
*Annotation Service: Annotate materials stored anywhere in the Edutella Network.
22:11:53 [AaronSw]
heh: http://www.kbs.uni-hannover.de/Diverses/edutella-archive/discussion/msg00147.html
22:14:19 [sbp]
sbp has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:47:20 [AaronSw]
Hmm, edutella is inventing their own query language, rdf conversion mechanism, etc.
22:48:46 [AaronSw]
I think that's the wrong place for something like that.
22:51:06 [AaronSw]
I like how Bit Torrent went from version one-point-oh to one-point-oh shit, in the words of Bram. ;-)
23:02:14 [sbp]
sbp (~sean@m336-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack
23:11:02 [sbp]
ta da: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2002Jan/att-0025/01-sha512.py
23:16:38 [sbp]
* sbp lengthens an old song that he wrote
23:16:47 [sbp]
let's time it
23:16:48 [sbp]
.time
23:16:50 [xena]
2002/01/09 23:18:27.6259 Universal
23:19:07 [sbp]
.time
23:19:08 [xena]
2002/01/09 23:20:46.2678 Universal
23:19:18 [sbp]
Hmm... pretty good. Just about long enough
23:25:06 [sbp]
Perhaps I can make an arpeggio of it, although that might make it a bit weak
23:25:21 [sbp]
I did used to do that to AXV when I'd play it to people, but gave in after a while
23:26:31 [sbp]
Nope, sounds better strummed
23:32:10 [sbp]
* sbp updates songs.html
23:34:37 [sbp]
Pff, even Stu commented the other day that I can't write songs like AXV anymore
23:34:50 [sbp]
He's right, and it's annoying
23:36:54 [hazmat]
hazmat (~ender@adsl-66-123-57-58.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) has joined #swhack
23:37:24 [AaronSw]
songs.html?
23:37:26 [AaronSw]
AXV?
23:37:42 [sbp]
uh huh
23:38:09 [AaronSw]
full uri for songs.html?
23:38:20 [sbp]
logster, grep <sbp> .*A.*x.*v
23:39:05 [logster]
I'm logging. I found 30 answers for '<sbp> .*A.*x.*v' (showing 0...4)
23:39:06 [logster]
0) 2002-01-09 23:38:20 <sbp> logster, grep <sbp> .*A.*x.*v
23:39:07 [logster]
1) 2002-01-08 04:16:17 <sbp> Aaron, can you be canonical about links to http://www.plexdev.org/ ?
23:39:08 [logster]
2) 2001-12-31 23:33:21 <sbp> Well, it's counter intuitive. Archiving everything has only recently become possible - even feasable on the level that the Plex is being designed for. And there are the complexities of searching billions of triples for really simple search patterns. If it wasn't for things like Google, you wouldn't have thought that such searches would be possible
23:39:09 [logster]
3) 2001-12-31 23:25:26 <sbp> Ah. But wasn't the problem that xena wasn't relaying the text over?
23:39:11 [logster]
4) 2001-12-30 01:26:01 <sbp> When you think about it, if Alexa and Google can store all that content, there's not much need for people paying out for server space. Memory is so cheap these days, so the situation is getting better
23:39:14 [sbp]
full URI is something like file://c:/[...]/songs.html
23:39:22 [sbp]
well, that was good
23:39:27 [AaronSw]
You know that never works.
23:39:30 [sbp]
Heh, heh
23:39:34 [AaronSw]
you need to do [^ ] not .
23:39:52 [sbp]
AXV is the filename abbreviation that I use for Alexandr'a Views
23:40:32 [AaronSw]
aha
23:43:40 [sbp]
The mixed reacations that I've got upon playing it to people are pretty fun
23:43:57 [AaronSw]
You didn't play it for me, did you?
23:44:05 [sbp]
nope
23:44:16 [AaronSw]
i've somee comments on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2002Jan/att-0025/01-sha512.py
23:44:24 [AaronSw]
like what's up with """Copyright (C) 2001 Sean B. Palmer. GNU GPL 2"?
23:44:32 [sbp]
As far as I recall, I played The Rain Song
23:44:37 [AaronSw]
yeah, that was cool
23:44:39 [sbp]
What about it?
23:44:46 [AaronSw]
having a bout of quote indecison?
23:44:54 [AaronSw]
triple quotes, double quotes?
23:44:54 [sbp]
oh, heh!
23:45:00 [sbp]
forgot to strip that off
23:45:03 [sbp]
oh well, who cares
23:45:21 [AaronSw]
and you should use the tempfile module
23:45:23 [hazmat]
regarding plex, how is it going to efficiently search through the mass of triples?
23:45:24 [sbp]
me playing the Rain Song cool: I hit two wrong notes. Two! Shoews how nervous I was
23:45:41 [sbp]
tempfile - I like my little times based solution. I use that a lot now
23:45:43 [AaronSw]
Heh, heh. I wish I could play that well.
23:45:47 [hazmat]
i haven't seen any indexing technologies in python up to the task.
23:46:01 [AaronSw]
hazmat, on a network basis or a local one?
23:46:23 [hazmat]
local
23:46:30 [AaronSw]
for the local one, we're investigating building our own lightweight rdf database and storage system, possibly based on irondoc
23:47:00 [hazmat]
.google irondoc
23:47:02 [xena]
irondoc: http://www.irondoc.net/home.html
23:47:16 [AaronSw]
.google mccusker irondoc
23:47:17 [xena]
mccusker irondoc: http://www.best.com/~mccusker/irondoc/irondoc.htm
23:47:48 [AaronSw]
Initially, however, we're just going to use anydbm.
23:47:59 [AaronSw]
(which is how everyone else I know does it)
23:48:12 [hazmat]
which is not scalable.
23:48:40 [hazmat]
berkelydb would be a better choice
23:48:45 [tansaku]
tansaku has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:48:52 [AaronSw]
by anydbm i meant berkeleydb (ideally)
23:49:51 [hazmat]
the functionality offered by the raw python bindings to bdb is much more advanced than a simple anydbm interface. it includes additional functionality like transactions and customization of the indexing structure (hash, btree, heap, etc.).
23:50:11 [sbp]
sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m56-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com)))
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sbp (~sean@m56-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack
23:50:46 [AaronSw]
I know, but I looked thru it and didn't see anything I needed.
23:50:52 [hazmat]
ok.
23:50:54 [AaronSw]
Is there something I missed?
23:51:20 [hazmat]
well if you think its adequate, than no.
23:51:36 [AaronSw]
obviously, this is not a long-term solution
23:51:39 [hazmat]
i would just be concerned about managing potentially gigabytes of info via that interface.
23:51:54 [hazmat]
esp. without transactions to maintain integrity.
23:51:58 [AaronSw]
yeah, me too, which is why i'm working my way thru "Managing Gigabytes".
23:52:03 [AaronSw]
:-)
23:52:08 [sbp]
heh, heh
23:52:16 [sbp]
.google "Managing Gigabytes"
23:52:17 [xena]
"Managing Gigabytes": http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/mg
23:52:19 [hazmat]
and the customization of the indexing storages to make searches timely
23:52:24 [sbp]
.google "Managing Gigabytes" now with a forward by Aaron Swartz
23:52:25 [xena]
no results found.
23:52:28 [sbp]
blargh
23:52:29 [AaronSw]
heh heh
23:52:34 [hazmat]
check out some of the papers from doug cutting.
23:52:36 [hazmat]
and lucene.
23:52:41 [hazmat]
.google lucene
23:52:42 [xena]
lucene: http://jakarta.apache.org/lucene
23:52:47 [AaronSw]
Lucene looks cool... I hadn't thought about it in this context, tho.
23:53:02 [AaronSw]
I keep meaning to add it to Blogspace.
23:54:09 [AaronSw]
Do you think Lucene fields would be good for storing/querying RDF?
23:54:14 [hazmat]
the core functionality are the same, rapidly being able to search through vast amounts of information.
23:54:38 [hazmat]
AaronSw: it would require some customization to create the index to do rdf associations, i would think.
23:54:46 [AaronSw]
I guess the ideal thing might be PostgreSQL.
23:54:56 [AaronSw]
or maybe even (gasp!) MySQL.
23:55:47 [hazmat]
an rdbms does really sound tempting, since its basically relationship matching. but is it appropiate?
23:55:54 [sbp]
Just remember, the simpler (less dependencies) the better. Then again, as long as it can be packed, I suppose it doesn't matter
23:56:01 [sbp]
s/packed/packaged/
23:56:22 [AaronSw]
Exactly. That's why I've shied away from full SQL DBs.
23:56:43 [AaronSw]
A lot of the more advanced RDF QLs have been built atop full RDBMS
23:56:53 [sbp]
Yeah
23:57:05 [sbp]
But by "advanced", do you mean "quick"?
23:57:24 [sbp]
Has anyone does a decent benchmark of the best RDF APIs?
23:57:29 [hazmat]
i think alot of that derives from the lack of good indexing systems that are flexibile and scalable enough .
23:57:30 [AaronSw]
No, but it's probably faster than a simple lightweight db
23:57:37 [sbp]
er... RDFQ APIs, that is
23:57:54 [AaronSw]
Well, RDFQs are really young!
23:58:01 [AaronSw]
I'm interested in how RDQL turns out.
23:58:13 [AaronSw]
And of course we'll support RDAP.
23:58:34 [hazmat]
i'm still one the beg. of the rdf learning curve. a novice still. sigh.. so much to learn.
23:58:39 [hazmat]
s/one/on
23:59:02 [sbp]
Nah, RDF's just a big feck of a Webized database format
23:59:06 [AaronSw]
You seem to have picked up a surprising amount!
23:59:13 [AaronSw]
Yeah, sbp's got it.
23:59:47 [hazmat]
is irondoc usable?
23:59:55 [sbp]
.google irondoc
23:59:56 [xena]
irondoc: http://www.irondoc.net/home.html