00:26:10 <sbp> sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
00:49:43 <sbp> sbp (~sean@m296-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack
00:52:19 <sbp> Hmm... I came up with "eclectica" (which is a bit of a sham word, anyway), and it's already taken. That's annoying
00:56:17 <sbp> heh, neat stuff: http://www.dumblaws.com/states/texas.html
00:58:48 <sbp> lol! "It is illegal to urinate on the Alamo."
00:59:03 <sbp> I wonder if that's because of Ozzy, or just something that Ozzy ran afoul of?
01:09:08 <sbp> heh, in Illinois: "You may be convicted of a Class 4 felony offense, punishable by up to three years in state prison, for the crime of  "eavesdropping" on your own conversation. -720 ILCS 5/14-2."
01:18:57 <sbp> Hmm... from http://www.legis.state.il.us/ilcs/ch720/ch720act5articles/ch720act5Sub13.htm that seems to be a liberal reading of a badly composed law
01:31:46 <AaronSw> gro-ident, eh?
01:31:53 <AaronSw> yaswl?
01:33:38 <AaronSw> i've seen that dumblaws site before -- there's one about dragons that was pretty funny
01:45:00 <AaronSw> gojomo on Bitzi: "Of course, we're also continuing to seek venture investments. But only from investors who want to make lots and lots of money."
01:45:03 <AaronSw>  - http://bitzi.com/about/releases/2001-11-16-hibernation
01:45:53 <GabeW> GabeW (~gwachob@12-236-92-153.client.attbi.com) has joined #swhack
01:46:31 <AaronSw> howdy GabeW
01:46:41 <GabeW> hi
01:46:52 <GabeW> * GabeW is pissed - credit card company changed my address to the wrong one
01:47:10 <AaronSw> ouch
01:47:12 <GabeW> * GabeW had to cancel his credit card, fubaring a bunch of stuff he just ordered
01:47:38 <GabeW> * GabeW hopes its just a cc company screw up and not something nefarious
02:02:03 <Morbus> Morbus (~Morbus@s89.terminal3.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack
02:18:11 <AaronSw> sbp, please set geo-ident archives to be public
02:21:52 <em_away> em_away is now known as em
02:24:59 <Morbus> cha doing AaronSw
02:26:05 <tav> tav has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
02:32:46 <tav> tav (tav@host217-34-83-190.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #swhack
02:42:28 <em> em is now known as em_zzz
02:42:37 <Morbus> ooh, he's coming to get ya AaronSw
02:42:47 <AaronSw> He's sleeeping! sheesh
02:42:59 <Morbus> no, that's what yer gonna be doing after he socks you one.
02:48:41 <sbp> sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m69-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com)))
02:48:59 <sbp> sbp (~sean@m69-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack
02:51:59 <sbp> * sbp reads some PIE reconstructions... quite odd
02:59:47 <Morbus> Morbus has quit ("http://www.disobey.com/")
03:29:42 <AaronSw> PIE?
03:29:46 <sbp> What does it mean to ask "who are we?"?
03:29:54 <sbp> Proto-Indo-European
03:30:43 <sbp> Hmm... one question mark, external to the quote, would probably suffice
03:32:06 <AaronSw> * AaronSw decides on "Number Theory" and "Symbolic Logic" for next semester.
03:33:50 <sbp> * sbp finds that his guitar produces an odd noise, when hanging it over his jeans, and picking a chord
03:33:57 <sbp> s/picking/plucking/
03:34:43 <sbp> a kind-of resonant squelchy noise
03:38:21 <sbp> Two milkers were discussing weird cows that they had milked
03:38:51 <sbp> "I came across a cow that had a normal udder, and another one by its head", said the first
03:39:05 <sbp> "The other udder was odder?", queried the second?
03:39:16 <sbp> s/d?/d/
03:40:54 <sbp> with a little refactoring, that would make a great story-to-repel-people-with at parties
03:43:16 <AaronSw> lol
03:47:34 <AaronSw> sbp, please fix the archives on geo-ident
03:51:33 <sbp> what's the point? there are no messages :-)
03:51:37 <sbp> I'll fix them...
03:51:52 <AaronSw> Heh.
03:53:03 <AaronSw> odd, yahoo unverified my email addresses
03:53:22 <sbp> me too. it lost it
04:17:03 <sbp> sbp has quit ("Homer: 20 dollars? I wanted a peanut!")
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04:41:38 <AaronSw> .time pst
04:41:39 <xena> Dec. 19, 2001 8:43 pm US/Pacific
04:42:05 <AaronSw> ooh, embargo ends in 15 minutes
04:42:08 <sbp> say, let's have a conversation
04:42:20 <AaronSw> that'll be 5$
04:42:20 <sbp> embargo?
04:42:32 <AaronSw> yeah, http://80211b.weblogger.com/2001/12/19
04:47:14 <AaronSw> so what's this conversation about?
04:50:26 <GabeW> 8 minutes!
04:50:39 <GabeW> some new wireless isp?
04:52:07 <AaronSw> that's what i was thinking
04:52:11 <AaronSw> ricochet returns, perhaps?
04:53:11 <GabeW> well, thats the rumor anyway, right with aer??? (whats the name of that company?)
04:54:33 <GabeW> the company that bought out metricom's assets
04:55:20 <AaronSw> yeah, i can't remember
04:56:06 <GabeW> so, att broadband seems much faster
04:56:19 <GabeW> and they don't seem to actually be capping downloads at 1.5mbpas
04:56:30 <AaronSw> yeah, it got better today
04:58:58 <AaronSw> .time
04:58:59 <xena> 2001/12/20 05:00:33.1273 Universal
04:59:09 <GabeW> nothing yet
04:59:11 <AaronSw> hurry up, glenn! :)
05:00:43 <GabeW> i'm sure its the metricom relighting
05:00:57 <AaronSw> i bet whatever it is, it hovers.
05:01:00 <AaronSw> ;-)
05:01:43 <GabeW> i'm sure its the metricom relighting
05:01:52 <GabeW> oh my god wireless scooters
05:02:05 <GabeW> (damn irc client - up arrow seems to get in there sometimes and resend what I previously typed)
05:02:20 <AaronSw> Wi-Fi segways!
05:02:31 <GabeW> ooh
05:02:38 <GabeW> I'm starting a wi-fi isp
05:02:52 <GabeW> thats the secret!
05:04:23 <wmf> wmf (wesf@cs242724-5.austin.rr.com) has joined #swhack
05:04:33 <AaronSw> we've decided it's either a wireless segway
05:04:39 <AaronSw> or gabew's wireless isp
05:04:40 <wmf> * wmf yawns
05:04:45 <wmf> 9 PM, tick tock
05:04:45 <GabeW> i think its my wireless isp
05:04:56 <AaronSw> maybe we should email glenn
05:05:14 <GabeW> i'm hoping its something to do with wireless freenets
05:05:26 <AaronSw> if it was free, it wouldn't be embargoed.
05:05:32 <GabeW> i wanna set that up around where i live 
05:05:59 <GabeW> well, I mean, who knows - maybe its a product that enables wireless freenets (a cheap antenna that does omnidirectional?)
05:06:13 <GabeW> email him AaronSw!
05:06:40 <AaronSw> Heh
05:07:30 <sbp> it's 8 minutes past, and counting...
05:08:16 <GabeW> its just a ploy to get more page hits
05:08:21 <AaronSw> heh heh
05:08:27 <sbp> heh, heh
05:08:28 <AaronSw> sent:
05:08:29 <AaronSw> [[[
05:08:31 <GabeW> what with us hitting reload like little experimental rats
05:08:31 <AaronSw> Hey Glenn,
05:08:31 <AaronSw> You've got us all on the edge of our seats wondering what this big secret is. [reloads webpage] When you going to tell us, eh? [reloads webpage]
05:08:32 <AaronSw> From our chatroom:
05:08:32 <AaronSw> * wmf yawns
05:08:32 <AaronSw> <wmf> 9 PM, tick tock
05:08:34 <AaronSw> <GabeW> email him AaronSw!
05:08:36 <AaronSw> <sbp> it's 8 minutes past, and counting...
05:08:38 <AaronSw> [reloads webpage]
05:08:40 <AaronSw> All the best,
05:08:42 <AaronSw> ]]]
05:08:54 <wmf> http://www.wbs.nokia.com/
05:09:01 <sbp> :-)
05:09:11 <wmf> hello, chump?
05:09:16 <wmf> that's not it
05:09:20 <AaronSw> sitck an "@ " in front
05:09:36 <wmf> but I wonder why it hasn't caught on (that I've heard)
05:09:39 <GabeW> i'm actually trying to write code
05:09:56 <AaronSw> shoo, shoo, you're ruining our record. ;-)
05:10:51 <GabeW> wbs - i'm not sure thats a solutoin to a problem that actually exists, is it? It can't be cheap enough for hobbyists
05:10:58 <GabeW> and I'm not sure businesses need to set up meshes
05:11:12 <wmf> wow, I just got some Chinese spam
05:11:56 <AaronSw> heh, glenn's already up to 2060 hits
05:12:04 <AaronSw> 2068
05:12:11 <AaronSw> 2071
05:12:19 <AaronSw> dave must be reloading too
05:12:51 <sbp> * sbp refreshes page
05:13:23 <AaronSw> maybe he's waiting for more paypal donations :)
05:14:49 <GabeW> well, I'm going to stop reloading since one of you will tell me within 5 seconds ;-)
05:14:59 <sbp> When he does release it, I'll bet we'll all be going, "Hmph, is that it?"
05:15:03 <AaronSw> heh
05:15:11 <AaronSw> like the segway
05:15:11 <GabeW> echoes of Ginger
05:15:15 <sbp> prize for the first one to get it?
05:15:19 <sbp> heh, yeah
05:15:55 <GabeW> man, i keep on using the keyword "self" in Java - I have such a hard time switching back and forth between python and java
05:16:38 <wmf> http://appleinsider.com/articles/0112/jaguar/jag.phtml
05:17:08 <AaronSw> @ http://appleinsider.com/articles/0112/jaguar/jag.phtml
05:17:19 <chumpster> A: http://appleinsider.com/articles/0112/jaguar/jag.phtml from AaronSw
05:18:00 <sbp> hey, I just came up with an exiting new invention!
05:18:06 <AaronSw> A:|AppleInsider: A look at Mac OS X 10.2
05:18:07 <chumpster> titled item A
05:18:18 <AaronSw> A::From tonight's special in-studio guest: wmf
05:18:19 <chumpster> commented item A
05:19:31 <wmf> http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000273
05:20:40 <AaronSw> anyone know if the new ie5.1 download is different than the current one for os x?
05:23:23 <AaronSw> A::Woohoo, spring-loaded folders!
05:23:24 <chumpster> commented item A
05:23:36 <GabeW> you guys know about #wireless
05:23:43 <wmf> A::yeah, I'm all about the spring-loading
05:23:43 <chumpster> commented item A
05:23:46 <AaronSw> now we do
05:25:24 <sbp> * sbp five, but not sure what that refers to
05:26:15 <AaronSw> using a wireless connection to get on irc
05:27:49 <AaronSw> this is interesting: http://appleinsider.com/articles/0112/jaguar/Jaguar/WhiteOnBlack.jpg
05:28:14 <wmf> yeah
05:28:22 <AaronSw> be cool if it did color too
05:29:46 <AaronSw> what's the thing for getting print mode in manila?
05:30:18 <AaronSw> ah, print-friendly=true
05:30:19 <sbp> * sbp installs 2001121909
05:30:19 <AaronSw> AaronSw has left #swhack
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05:30:29 <AaronSw> oops
05:30:30 <sbp> what was that?
05:30:45 <AaronSw> closed the wrong window
05:30:59 <AaronSw> AaronSw has changed the topic to: What is Glenn's secret? Wireless Ginger?
05:31:44 <AaronSw> what's 2001121909?
05:32:01 <sbp> A Mozilla build. 0.9.6+
05:32:14 <sbp> It was so worth upgrading
05:32:14 <AaronSw> ah
05:32:52 <wmf> it's 9:30 already!
05:33:21 <AaronSw> maybe the times paid him off
05:33:25 <sbp> .time pst
05:33:25 <xena> Dec. 19, 2001 9:34 pm US/Pacific
05:34:50 <AaronSw> cool, with print-friendly=true, you can make every site look like Hack the Planet.
05:35:00 <wmf> :-)
05:35:23 <AaronSw> I don't get the Boingo joke.
05:35:31 <sbp> yeah, if you use it on HtP too
05:36:11 <GabeW> boingo
05:36:19 <GabeW> http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1004-200-8237110.html?tag=mn_hd
05:36:27 <GabeW> this is it
05:36:30 <GabeW> notice the date of the story
05:36:36 <GabeW> rather, the time of the story
05:36:38 <AaronSw> ah
05:36:53 <AaronSw> @ http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1004-200-8237110.html?tag=mn_hd
05:37:00 <chumpster> B: http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1004-200-8237110.html?tag=mn_hd from AaronSw
05:37:01 <sbp> What happened to Zooko?
05:37:06 <GabeW> I'm signing up tomorrow
05:37:13 <AaronSw> B:|Earthlink founder takes to the air
05:37:14 <chumpster> titled item B
05:37:17 <AaronSw> zooko went on vacation
05:37:25 <AaronSw> B::News.com scoops Glenn!
05:37:26 <chumpster> commented item B
05:37:27 <GabeW> B: GabeW guessed it rigth!
05:37:34 <sbp> ah
05:37:43 <GabeW> B:GabeW guessed it right!
05:37:48 <AaronSw> two :s
05:37:49 <AaronSw> ::
05:37:50 <GabeW> B::GabeW guessed it right!
05:37:51 <chumpster> commented item B
05:38:42 <GabeW> I feel great that I predicted this a while ago (i said "someone is oing to do this" to my business partner - it seems like such a no-duh)
05:38:49 <wmf> it's really not that impressive
05:39:03 <GabeW> yeah, its not
05:39:09 <GabeW> it just had to happen
05:39:09 <AaronSw> I feel the world of Wi-Fi service changing!
05:39:30 <wmf> I'm interested in wi-fi, but not in wi-fi service
05:39:36 <GabeW> can hmm
05:39:38 <GabeW> hmm
05:39:44 <sbp> <sbp> When he does release it, I'll bet we'll all be going, "Hmph, is that it?"
05:39:46 <sbp> Hmph, is that it?
05:39:50 <GabeW> I am interested in wifi service because it means I can work elsewhere than at home
05:40:23 <AaronSw> I'm interested in seeing 80% wifi service coverage
05:40:36 <AaronSw> or at least for my city or somethign
05:40:46 <AaronSw> but something little like mobilestar wasn't worth it, imo
05:41:29 <GabeW> yeah - ricochet was great
05:41:46 <GabeW> and while this is different technology, its basically the same idea from my point of view
05:42:11 <AaronSw> well, one key difference is i already have a wifi card
05:42:54 <GabeW> right
05:43:28 <GabeW> thats the really key difference - ricochet was a proprietary standard - and the nice thing about 802.11 is that you can use it in a variety of modes and on different networks
05:43:45 <GabeW> 802.11b that is
05:43:51 <wmf> daypop doesn't even have the story yet
05:44:08 <AaronSw>  google does
05:44:23 <AaronSw> .google boingo
05:44:24 <xena> boingo: http://www.boingo.com
05:44:28 <GabeW> nothing there yet
05:44:34 <AaronSw> there's a log!
05:44:37 <AaronSw> err a logo
05:44:51 <AaronSw> B::See also: the [Boingo Wireless website|http://www.boingo.com/].
05:44:53 <chumpster> commented item B
05:45:14 <AaronSw> He should have called it Airlink or something.
05:45:30 <GabeW> the article is up on glenn's site
05:45:38 <sbp> I wonder how much Dan got?
05:45:56 <AaronSw> B::Glenn [finally gets the story|http://80211b.weblogger.com/2001/12/19].
05:45:57 <chumpster> commented item B
05:46:12 <GabeW> ewww - requires software only available on windows
05:47:19 <AaronSw> " (Dayton himself is a committed Macintosh user.)"
05:49:07 <GabeW> but apparently not so concerned with linux ;-?
05:49:28 <AaronSw> mac os x :)
05:50:09 <GabeW> * GabeW doesn't actuall run linux on his laptop 
05:52:58 <wmf> boingo's site is screwed up
05:53:11 <GabeW> well, it'd be interesting to see what their coverage is like around here - it would be nice to work out on the bay
05:53:17 <AaronSw> how so, wes?
05:53:56 <GabeW> * GabeW is trying random http://www.boingo.com/* urls
05:54:10 <AaronSw> Glenn sure likes Boing.
05:54:40 <wmf> it sent me a file called readme.eml that had some multipart MIME garbage in it
05:54:55 <AaronSw> i think that's entourage
05:55:34 <wmf> I don't see what Entourage has to do with Boingo's site
05:55:54 <AaronSw> it sounds like you dragged an entourage email on to your web browser and got confused
05:56:00 <wmf> no
05:56:30 <sbp> nothing: http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Awww.boingo.com+and
05:58:23 <sbp> sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m506-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com)))
05:58:36 <sbp> sbp (~sean@m506-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack
05:59:23 <sbp> sbp has changed the topic to: It's incredible how fast topics go out-of-date, these days
05:59:40 <sbp> s/fast/quickly/
05:59:56 <AaronSw> AaronSw has changed the topic to: It's incredible how quickly topics go out-of-date, these days
06:00:12 <sbp> heh, heh
06:00:22 <AaronSw> :-)
06:01:21 <AaronSw> Dave Winer: "Think of Radio as our Amaya, a way of showing everyone else that writing on the Internet can be fun and easy, and wild and uncontrolled."
06:01:29 <AaronSw> I thought Dave had forgotten all about Amaya.
06:01:37 <AaronSw> He sure didn't implement HTTP PUT like he said he would.
06:04:33 <sbp> think of Radio as a kind-of Amaya?
06:04:33 <deltab> has anyone reminded him of that?
06:05:46 <sbp> * sbp goes on an adventure
06:05:51 <sbp> into the lounge! ooh!
06:07:08 <sbp> * sbp returns
06:08:36 <sbp> wow! what a search http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Grpmgprmgh
06:08:49 <sbp> the series of g/r/p/m/h was totally random!
06:09:34 <sbp> * sbp is quite impressed with that
06:09:45 <AaronSw> heh
06:10:07 <AaronSw> AaronSw has left #swhack
06:10:14 <AaronSw> AaronSw (aaronsw@mewtwo.espnow.com) has joined #swhack
06:10:19 <AaronSw> ugh, this is getting annoying
06:10:24 <sbp> heh, heh, heh
06:10:27 <sbp> Gotta run
06:10:29 <sbp> sbp has quit ("Homer: 20 dollars? I wanted a peanut!")
06:10:42 <AaronSw> a sign i should go to sleep, methinks
06:10:47 <AaronSw> nite all
06:14:37 <GabeW> nite
06:19:18 <wmf> wmf has quit ("I have a reason: sleep")
06:20:15 <GabeW> GabeW has quit ("Client Exiting")
12:31:04 <Morbus> Morbus (~Morbus@s125.terminal3.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack
12:31:46 <Morbus> heh, hey AaronSw, there's a new snak out, nd they include some itunes scripts.
12:31:46 <Morbus> :)
12:35:22 <Morbus> Morbus has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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12:40:06 <Morbus> Morbus has quit (Client Quit)
13:43:17 <AaronSw> ILRT's homepage is getting all jolly.
13:44:53 <AaronSw> Dan's staff webpage is now in the past tense.
13:53:58 <sbp> sbp (~sean@m145-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack
13:55:10 <AaronSw> why it's sbp!
13:55:26 <sbp> with more of his non sensical ad-hockery
13:55:28 <Morbus> Morbus (~Morbus@morbus.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack
13:55:43 <Morbus> mmm... 10.2
13:58:15 <Morbus> ooh. white on black ni osx. heh.
13:58:29 <AaronSw> heh and spring loaded folders!
13:58:36 <Morbus> i know. finally!
13:59:19 <sbp> ooh! neat!
13:59:54 <sbp> people with inferior OS' tend to abound with sarcasm...
14:00:00 <Morbus> heh, heh.
14:00:07 <Morbus> at least you admit it, luser.
14:00:09 <AaronSw> heh heh. if i bought you a mac would you  use it?
14:00:10 <Morbus> :)
14:00:26 <sbp> I may use it. Dunno
14:00:45 <AaronSw> what kind of answer is that?!
14:00:58 <sbp> It would be a bit on the side from my regular operating system
14:01:01 <Morbus> a "bite the hand that feeds you" sort of thing.
14:01:08 <Morbus> this isn't a sweater, sean ;)
14:01:13 <sbp> lol
14:01:54 <sbp> Heh, no if Aaron bought me a truly decent Mac, I'd probably run around singing happy songs, flapping my arms, and eventually just sitting in a corner, weeping, and saying, "I have a Mac, I have a Mac!"
14:02:11 <AaronSw> lol
14:02:22 <Morbus> hehehehehe
14:02:39 <AaronSw> * AaronSw packs one up just so he can see sbp do this
14:02:43 <sbp> heh, heh, heh
14:04:20 <AaronSw> { ?x :beard ?b . ?b :color :black } => { {?x = :Santa } a log:Falsehood} .
14:04:45 <Morbus> bbl
14:04:46 <sbp> or alternatively
14:04:54 <Morbus> * Morbus disconnects with mirth in his eyes
14:05:02 <AaronSw> uh oh
14:05:06 <AaronSw> that sounds dangerous
14:05:14 <sbp> { ?x :beard [ :color :black ] } => { ?x [ swn:converse = ] :Santa } .
14:05:20 <sbp> Morbus? Mirth?
14:05:20 <Morbus> i know. i could shoot my eye out.
14:05:38 <AaronSw> no, that'd only work if people could only have one beard, sbp
14:05:47 <sbp> ah, of course. Silly me
14:06:41 <AaronSw> It's interesting how so many of the anti-censorware people are anti-spam too.
14:06:56 <AaronSw> Seems a bit odd.
14:07:36 <sbp> It's interesting how many unmarried marraige counsellors are out there, too, but that doesn't mean that I go cluttering up #swhack with such statements... Hmm... except that I just did. O.K., you're forgiven
14:10:59 <AaronSw> i fear the tag is creating a monster
14:12:54 <sbp> Yes... I call him smeglar!
14:13:56 <sbp> oh, man...
14:14:10 <sbp> alright, why do you fear that?
14:14:12 <AaronSw> I think I better go back to sleep.
14:14:21 <AaronSw> Because they
14:14:28 <AaronSw> Because they're talking about SAD documents.
14:14:34 <AaronSw> We want docs to make us HAPPY.
14:14:48 <sbp> heh, heh
14:15:03 <sbp> yes, I thought that was a pretty terrible choice of acronym
14:16:00 <Morbus> * Morbus reconnects with whimsical glee.
14:16:04 <sbp> heh, hh
14:16:09 <sbp> s/hh/heh/
14:17:08 <Morbus> did i miss anything good?
14:17:13 <sbp> yep
14:17:20 <Morbus> dammit. what?
14:17:25 <sbp> [[[
14:17:26 <sbp> <AaronSw> i fear the tag is creating a monster
14:17:26 <sbp> <sbp> Yes... I call him smeglar!
14:17:27 <sbp> ]]]
14:17:33 <Morbus> lol.
14:17:59 <Morbus> anyways, AaronSw, you around? 
14:18:04 <Morbus> why do you hate xml-rpc so much?
14:18:20 <AaronSw> Hate XML-RPC? Me?
14:18:37 <Morbus> ok. lemme rephrase.
14:18:42 <Morbus> what do you think of soap and xml-rpc?
14:18:48 <AaronSw> I hate them.
14:18:52 <Morbus> heh, heh.
14:18:56 <Morbus> ok. so. why do you hate them?
14:19:01 <Morbus> you know, this is really funny.
14:19:10 <AaronSw> I mean, I don't really hate them.
14:19:12 <Morbus> cos i was thinking "you know, it'd be funny if AaronSw said he hated them".
14:19:19 <AaronSw> I think Zooko said it best:
14:19:19 <sbp> lol!
14:20:01 <AaronSw> Hmm, what happened to my server?
14:20:11 <sbp> he really said that? wow
14:20:13 <Morbus> that's what zooka said? wtf does that mean?
14:20:16 <Morbus> heh. 
14:20:20 <Morbus> * Morbus highfives sbp.
14:20:35 <AaronSw> his name is zooko with an o
14:20:35 <sbp> * sbp sticks his hand out in the air
14:20:50 <Morbus> i was giving him more feminine traits. 
14:20:53 <Morbus> you know how i do that with people.
14:20:56 <sbp> I thought his name was Ozoko
14:21:02 <Morbus> or Uzoko <g>
14:21:08 <Morbus> ok. that's a distance joke. nevermind.
14:21:08 <AaronSw> That's his last name... sometimes.
14:21:22 <AaronSw> Zooko:
14:21:25 <AaronSw> "XML: the most inappropriate encoding possible for an API 
14:21:25 <AaronSw> HTTP: the most inappropriate transport possible for an API 
14:21:25 <sbp> Um... sometimes?
14:21:25 <AaronSw> Put them together and its magic! A world-wide hype extravaganza! Whoo-hoo!"
14:21:30 <AaronSw> Yeah.
14:21:34 <AaronSw> Depends on the occasion.
14:21:51 <Morbus> heh. ok. so, generically, you're against any http transport methods?
14:22:03 <AaronSw> no! I just think people should use REST.
14:22:04 <sbp> [Stu arrives]
14:22:10 <AaronSw> again?
14:22:12 <Morbus> so, if i wanted to traffic data between cgi over the net, it'd be POST?
14:22:14 <Morbus> REST?
14:22:19 <AaronSw> What's with that guy, doesn't he learn from repeated pain?
14:22:21 <Morbus> i've heard of it, but its slipping my mind?
14:22:40 <AaronSw> REST says you're supposed to use the Web the right way, instead of tunnelling new stuff over it.
14:22:42 <Morbus> make sure Stu meets (meats) a chick named Fire.
14:22:48 <Morbus> then he can go from the stu to the fire.
14:23:00 <Morbus> that's all REST says? why the fancy name?
14:23:04 <AaronSw> heh
14:23:10 <AaronSw> well, that's a summary
14:23:27 <Morbus> ok. if you were me, how would two cgi's communicate.
14:23:41 <AaronSw> what are we communicating about?
14:23:54 <Morbus> game/world state, in a p2p/decentralized way.
14:24:34 <AaronSw> OK, well rest says that HTTP transmits representations of state.
14:24:43 <AaronSw> so if you want to get someone's state you GET it.
14:24:49 <AaronSw> if you want to change it, you POST to them.
14:24:57 <AaronSw> and if you want to overwrite it, you PUT.
14:25:20 <Morbus> well, hmm... in the long run, it would be POST then.
14:25:42 <Morbus> because the data isn't specifically changing the operation of the cgiscript, its rather changing the data that the cgiscript analyzes to present a world to the playter.
14:26:12 <AaronSw> yowza! speed: 4294967295 hashes per sec
14:26:39 <AaronSw> no, it doesn't actually have to change the CGI script.
14:26:46 <AaronSw> see, each URL represents an object
14:26:51 <AaronSw> and that object has state
14:27:05 <AaronSw> and you perform GET PUT and POST on the object, not the code that serves it up
14:27:25 <deltab> don't you recognize that number?
14:27:25 <Morbus> mmkay.
14:27:34 <AaronSw> no deltab, what's that number?
14:27:44 <deltab> 2^32 - 1
14:27:47 <Morbus> your phone number?
14:28:00 <AaronSw> .py 2**32 -1
14:28:02 <xena> OverflowError: integer exponentiation
14:28:22 <AaronSw> no, that's 4294967295... oh, hmm
14:28:25 <deltab> .py (2**31-2)*2
14:28:31 <deltab> .py (2**31-2)*2
14:28:32 <xena> OverflowError: integer exponentiation
14:28:39 <AaronSw> i need to learn my powers of 2 better, i guess.
14:29:03 <deltab> so does xena :-)
14:29:07 <AaronSw> any particular reason for it to be that, deltab?
14:29:12 <deltab> bug
14:29:39 <AaronSw> so it's actually faster than that?
14:29:58 <AaronSw> .py import sha
14:29:59 <xena> ImportError: untrusted dynamic module: sha
14:30:02 <AaronSw> pff
14:30:55 <deltab> unlikely
14:31:15 <AaronSw> all the hashes take 0 seconds
14:31:33 <AaronSw> Heh heh: estimate: Inf seconds
14:31:48 <AaronSw> so why is finding a hash so hard? can't you reverse the algorithm like DanC suggested?
14:31:56 <AaronSw> err finding a hash collision, rather
14:32:44 <deltab> because there are so many of them
14:33:06 <AaronSw> wouldn't that make it easier?
14:34:01 <AaronSw> i mean, can't you write a backwards-hash program that simply follows the hashing procedure backwards?
14:34:12 <AaronSw> hmm...
14:34:53 <deltab> that's like building an egg-unscrambling machine
14:35:19 <AaronSw> yeah, i realized that.
14:35:24 <AaronSw> danc is full of it
14:38:41 <Morbus> sputnix 04b is out.
14:39:09 <AaronSw> cool
14:45:39 <AaronSw> ooh, it has a toolbar
14:45:45 <AaronSw> it's nice
14:45:55 <Morbus> oOoh. toolbars! <G>
14:46:10 <Morbus> i'll have to grab it when i get home.
14:46:14 <AaronSw> cool, you can search AG.com from it
14:46:18 <Morbus> haven't tested out the new snak itunes things though
14:46:21 <Morbus> oh, that's nice.
14:46:48 <AaronSw> but it just sends you to ag.com/search.php?q=what+you+typed
14:46:56 <Morbus> oh. ok. that's lame <G>
14:49:49 <Morbus> hey, AaronSw, i'll pay you five bucks to research and requeue all these dead songs in my ag queue/
14:50:00 <AaronSw> hey, that's my trick!
14:50:09 <Morbus> hehehe... 
14:52:52 <Morbus> awww: http://blogdex.media.mit.edu/browseSource.asp?url=http://www.disobey.com/
14:52:54 <Morbus> how cute!
14:53:14 <AaronSw> we are number one!
14:54:50 <AaronSw> whoa, we're number 7724.
14:55:39 <AaronSw> ooh, the other aaron reads our weblog
14:55:53 <AaronSw> hey, aaron, we added permalinks
14:56:42 <AaronSw> oh man, this is awesome
14:56:45 <AaronSw> @ http://www.ilbbs.com/oracovers/
14:56:47 <chumpster> C: http://www.ilbbs.com/oracovers/ from AaronSw
14:57:17 <AaronSw> C:|Design Your Own O'Reilly Cover
14:57:18 <chumpster> titled item C
14:58:22 <sbp> the other Aaron reads it? how d'ya know?
14:58:30 <AaronSw> he linked to us
14:58:44 <AaronSw> """"Meanwhile, the other Aaron (permalinks, gentlemen? :-) asks : I wonder what the court would say if I came out with a browser that linked every instance of the word "the" to the DeCSS source code?. Isn't that what we all tied our panties in a knot over when Microsoft announced Smart Tags ?"""
14:58:59 <deltab> that doesn't prove readership - look at slashdot :-)
14:59:03 <sbp> ooh, neat. Where?
14:59:22 <AaronSw> http://aaronland.net/weblog/archive/3723
15:00:51 <Morbus> AaronSw, ave you seen the ora ate my balls page?
15:01:00 <AaronSw> please, no more
15:01:27 <Morbus> i guess that's a no.
15:02:21 <AaronSw> C::Meanwhile check out [Sean's upcoming book|http://www.ilbbs.com/cgi-bin/oracovers/output.cgi?color=FF00E3&subhead=It%27s+Too+Complicated+For+You+Anyway&animal=758_385_242.gif&gerund=Learning&title=RDF&author=Sean+B.+Palmer].
15:02:35 <em_zzz> em_zzz is now known as em
15:02:41 <AaronSw> heh, that woke him up
15:02:48 <em> :)
15:03:01 <sbp> heh, heh, neat stuff
15:03:09 <chumpster> commented item C
15:03:16 <Morbus> lol!
15:04:18 <Morbus> i wonder if i coudl fool someone into saying i'm writing a book.
15:04:25 <sbp> I doubt it
15:04:33 <Morbus> like "yeah, i'm wriitng this book over at ORA. here's the cover. but hey, if you pay me more, i'll write it for you instead."
15:05:02 <AaronSw> heh heh
15:05:17 <sbp> :-)
15:07:35 <Morbus> AaronSw...
15:07:48 <Morbus> if xml-rpc is just data sent over http, what's the diff from POST?
15:08:08 <AaronSw> Well, XML-RPC is a type of POST
15:08:16 <AaronSw> but its emphasis on procedure calls is a bit odd.
15:09:41 <Morbus> but if the transport is just data, how is that breaking the REST ideal?
15:09:51 <Morbus> i'm just thinking this objectively.
15:10:20 <AaronSw> the way it breaks the REST ideal is that all things go to /RPC2 instead of to different URLs.
15:10:22 <Morbus> if I can say "create this form script" or "call this url with get.data", the second one is certainly easier for people to grasp, especially with a framework.
15:10:50 <AaronSw> I'm not sure what you mean.
15:10:50 <Morbus> how does that break it?
15:11:02 <AaronSw> Well, the REST ideal is that these things are objects, remember?
15:11:13 <Morbus> mmhmm.
15:11:24 <AaronSw> but what kind of object is RPC2? it doesn't really fit.
15:12:06 <Morbus> yeah, but, ... ok. i haven't worked or read the entire spec on this, so i may be talking out my ass.
15:12:19 <Morbus> but doesn't the rpc2 stuff only happen to the listener? the transport is still pure data.
15:12:37 <AaronSw> what do you mean? what's a listener?
15:12:53 <AaronSw> I agree that XML-RPC is a reasonable serialization.
15:13:00 <Morbus> the thing that responds to the data sent it, either via post or get or xml-rpc, etc.
15:13:13 <AaronSw> yep
15:14:15 <Morbus> so if this object stuff only makes a difference to the listener, i'm not sure how the data being transported, either in POST or XML-RPC or gzp format, or whatever, is different than each other.
15:14:37 <AaronSw> POST isn't a transport format.
15:14:45 <AaronSw> I said, XML-RPC is a reasonable transport format.
15:14:46 <AaronSw> fine with me
15:14:56 <AaronSw> but the XML-RPC says a lot more than just a transport format
15:15:22 <AaronSw> I mean, Dave says if you use HTTPS and not HTTP, then it's not XML-RPC.
15:15:31 <Morbus> i dont' care what dave says right now.
15:15:43 <Morbus> dave will change his mind tomorrow.
15:15:56 <deltab> what about HTTP with negotiated TLS?
15:15:59 <Morbus> i just want to transport data over the net, and have some sort of API that's easier to use than tons of GET params.
15:16:55 <AaronSw> deltab, does it work with Frontier?
15:17:33 <deltab> not that I've heard
15:17:43 <AaronSw> then no.
15:21:01 <Morbus> AaronSw: the game i'm designing would do a fair amount of data transfer after user logouts, etc. you would still recommend posts?
15:21:26 <AaronSw> yeah, if it changes state
15:21:34 <Morbus> it does.
15:21:38 <AaronSw> ok
15:21:53 <Morbus> and retrieval, in game, and third party, you'd still recommend a GET interface?
15:22:42 <AaronSw> yes
15:22:49 <AaronSw> this is what HTTP was designed for.
15:23:09 <Morbus> the topic devolves at the bottom, but i sent this a few days ago: http://www.movabletype.org/support/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?s=3c2202963287ffff;act=ST;f=12;t=146
15:23:12 <Morbus> anything to add to this?
15:24:38 <sbp> sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
15:25:46 <AaronSw> interesting
15:26:03 <AaronSw> well, i'd think movable type supports get and post by default, since that's the web interface, right?
15:26:42 <Morbus> right - using the other Aaron's script will show you all the params, and it would certainly be possible, assuming you auth by cookie.
15:26:57 <Morbus> but like he said, he doesn't seem enthralled about not changing the get/post params.
15:27:03 <AaronSw> yeah
15:27:04 <Morbus> (btrott is the creator of mt)
15:27:13 <AaronSw> ah, ok
15:27:36 <AaronSw> well, he could set up a separate get/post interface along side the xml-rpc one
15:35:45 <Morbus> [[[
15:36:13 <Morbus> Some things, like Star Wars prequels, new and disgusting variants of Mountain Dew, Radiohead albums, new versions of Windows and Final Fantasy sequels (but not movies) are all destined to be massively successful whether they're any good or not. 
15:36:16 <Morbus> ]]]
15:36:27 <AaronSw> sbp will like this: http://www.craphound.com/images/map_of_springfield.gif
15:36:30 <Morbus> gamers.com - thinking out loud, dec. 20, 2001
15:37:10 <Morbus> "I'd previously dismissed Tidus as just a Meg Ryan looking
15:37:10 <Morbus> lady-boy with a funny yellow outfit."
15:37:29 <Morbus> "After some nice CG, a couple of 
15:37:29 <Morbus> really boring battles and a bit of moody acting courtesy of 
15:37:29 <Morbus> "ooooh, look at me, I'm a moody monk" Auron, I was ready to
15:37:29 <Morbus> call it a night."
15:37:32 <Morbus> heh. i love this guy.
15:38:01 <Morbus> "I'm not usually one to comment on the relatively merits of 
15:38:01 <Morbus> video game girlies - but I'm starting to think already that 
15:38:01 <Morbus> maybe Tidus should drop the whole idea of hooking up with 
15:38:01 <Morbus> magic-chick Yuna, flex his magnificent delts in Rikku's 
15:38:01 <Morbus> general direction and see what happens."
15:38:58 <Morbus> "As a PR guy from quite a large games 
15:38:59 <Morbus> company (not Rockstar by the way) told me at a party 
15:38:59 <Morbus> recently "evil will always win...because evil is more fun."  
15:38:59 <Morbus> We really have conversations like that you know. Seems kinda 
15:38:59 <Morbus> scary when I write it down."
15:39:06 <Morbus> i hate trillian and irc.
15:40:30 <sbp> sbp (~sean@m232-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack
15:40:54 <AaronSw> sbp will like this: http://www.craphound.com/images/map_of_springfield.gif
15:41:05 <sbp> Me: [to Stuart] Stop sq
15:41:15 <sbp> Sandy, here girl! Sit up and beg :-)
15:41:15 <sbp> Hooray for "The Simpsons", and especially Homer. Homer: You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel.
15:41:37 <sbp> Me: [to Stuart] Stop squeezing that reindeer's arse
15:41:49 <sbp> [much fighting over the keyboard]
15:41:59 <sbp> sbp is now known as Stu
15:42:00 <AaronSw> heh heh heh
15:42:13 <AaronSw> punch out his face, Sean
15:42:45 <Stu> stop kissing that cat and get in the car
15:42:51 <Stu> Thankyou!!!!
15:43:36 <Stu> How are you?
15:44:54 <Stu> Do you like Sean's new book, or do you disagree with it???
15:45:28 <AaronSw> I think it's quite nice.
15:45:52 <Stu> have you seen it?
15:46:02 <AaronSw> which one?
15:46:17 <AaronSw> I was thinking of the third.
15:47:07 <Stu> I think he has only two? unless he is hiding one???
15:47:25 <AaronSw> no, let me get you the link
15:47:26 <Stu> sbp: aaruguh, swap the "has" and the "only" around, Stuart!
15:47:47 <Stu> no!!!!
15:48:08 <AaronSw> Ah, here's the cover: http://purl.org/net/sbpbook
15:48:26 <Stu> Ahhh!
15:48:51 <Stu> sbp: you wasted a PURL on that? dear oh dear
15:49:02 <Stu> err!
15:49:09 <AaronSw> You can't waste a PURL:!
15:49:25 <AaronSw> Ook, Rob has a book out: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/wirelesscommnet/
15:49:37 <Stu> sbp: well, you just did => you can
15:49:40 <Morbus> you have to worry about wasting purl's?
15:49:45 <Morbus> that doesn't sound like a very good replacement.
15:49:57 <AaronSw> i think sbp's just being persnickety
15:50:03 <AaronSw> @ http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/wirelesscommnet/
15:50:07 <chumpster> D: oreilly.com -- Online Catalog: Building Wireless Community Networks from AaronSw
15:50:08 <Stu> sbp: Damn right
15:50:36 <AaronSw> D:|Building Wireless Community Networks: Implementing the Wireless Web
15:50:38 <chumpster> titled item D
15:51:01 <AaronSw> D::by Rob Flickenger of [NoCat|http://nocat.net/] and O'Reilly
15:51:02 <chumpster> commented item D
15:52:07 <Morbus> lotr review is up at gamegrene.com
15:52:13 <Stu> <JibberJim> $10million dollars in 1994 could generate MD5 collision in 24 days
15:52:15 <Stu> - #rdfig
15:52:56 <Stu> [er... that's sbp talking]
15:52:59 <AaronSw> heh
15:53:08 <Stu> couldn't you guess?
15:53:14 <Stu> err?
15:53:23 <Morbus> 404?
15:55:24 <Stu> ask me anything about Architecture, I will know!, I know nothing about computers
15:55:55 <AaronSw> Architecture eh?
15:56:03 <Stu> yes
15:56:08 <AaronSw> Fill in the blank: _______ is like dancing about architecture.
15:56:27 <deltab> * deltab knows
15:56:32 <AaronSw> :-)
15:56:32 <Stu> go on, look up an in answerable question
15:56:47 <AaronSw> deltab buzzed in first -- deltab?
15:56:56 <deltab> writing about music
15:57:23 <AaronSw> 3 points for deltab, who knows all.
15:57:24 <Stu> sbp: [laughing in the background]
15:57:38 <deltab> I don't know who first said it :-)
15:57:54 <Stu> sbp did not know who Corb is
15:58:31 <Morbus> heh, heh.
15:58:45 <AaronSw> "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture -- it's really a stupid thing to want to do." is attributed to Elvis Costello.
15:59:02 <deltab> and other people
15:59:13 <AaronSw> The first part is attributed to a lot of people.
15:59:14 <Morbus> AaronSw, there's a thread going on about A.S.S. on tidbits talk. you may want to look if you're gonna play withit.
15:59:21 <AaronSw> ok
15:59:28 <deltab> http://www.dancingaboutarc.com/misc/abouthome.html
16:00:57 <AaronSw> architecture seems like an interesting field, but it's one where rapid iteration is rather difficult.
16:01:14 <AaronSw> * AaronSw does a little architecture dancce
16:01:58 <AaronSw> ow!
16:02:04 <AaronSw> * AaronSw finds a more stable surface to dance on
16:02:14 <Morbus> heh. stay away from that cubism.
16:02:33 <Stu> The quote has nothing to do with Architecture, Elvis Costello??????? you what???
16:02:56 <Morbus> is there a "? maximum" rule in effect, today? ;)
16:03:09 <AaronSw> I think Stu has used up his quota.
16:03:16 <Morbus> i'd have to agree.
16:03:19 <Stu> I agree, the regoing over and over, Victorian!!! Architecture boring
16:04:32 <Stu> nothing is as good as the original
16:05:02 <Stu> look at the Romans/Gothic
16:05:59 <Stu> Cubism?  art intergrated with Architecture, happens all the time!, society changing that crap
16:06:17 <Stu> Spirit of an age
16:06:17 <Morbus> oop. you used another question mark.
16:06:44 <Stu> It is to get my emotion across
16:07:10 <Stu> sbp: hey, you used another unecessary period at the end of your sentence. We're going to have to burn you at the stake now
16:08:43 <Stu> Not if I burn you first
16:08:48 <Morbus> heh. how cute, they stick up for each other <G>
16:08:59 <AaronSw> ban them both!
16:09:06 <Morbus> heh, heh.
16:09:13 <Stu> [as I hit Sean]
16:13:15 <Stu> who wears short shorts?
16:13:25 <Stu> I wear short shorts!
16:13:33 <Stu> sbp quote
16:13:44 <Stu> he being stupid again
16:13:53 <Stu> sbp: s/he/he's/
16:14:32 <Stu> stupid PC keyboard!, lets hear it for macs!
16:15:38 <Stu> sbp: s/lets/let's/
16:16:13 <Stu> stop correcting me!
16:16:32 <Stu> I hope that was right?
16:17:02 <Stu> sbp: ending a statement with a question mark is a bit weird, but what'ya gonna do?
16:17:24 <AaronSw> It's just as I predicted! They're talking to each other via IRC.
16:18:17 <Stu> Stupid isn't it, we are sitting right next to each other
16:19:00 <Stu> Gotta go now , see ya
16:20:49 <AaronSw> bye
16:21:38 <Stu> bye
16:23:50 <AaronSw> bye bye
16:24:12 <AaronSw> tell sbp that he's got a telecon in 30min
16:25:45 <Stu> anything said now under my name, Sean wrote. I am leaving the building.
16:26:03 <AaronSw> yeah, i bet sbp wrote that so i'm not going to believe it
16:26:58 <Morbus> heh!
16:32:08 <Stu> Stu is now known as sbp
16:32:28 <sbp> No, he's buggered off. You'll be able to tell from my strangely placed punctuation etc.; that it's me
16:32:33 <AaronSw> * AaronSw tries to figure out how to speed up this crazy regexp.
16:32:40 <Morbus> ooh, show us!
16:32:42 <sbp> put it in a spin dryer
16:32:49 <Morbus> use substr!
16:33:16 <sbp> substr? What kinda crazy crap is that? You're just spewing nonsense now Morbus, and I'm sick of it. Disgusting
16:33:35 <Morbus> sniff.
16:33:39 <Morbus> i hate being rebuked.
16:33:53 <deltab> XPath has substr
16:34:01 <AaronSw> arrgh, my mouse is doing that crazy thing again
16:34:06 <sbp> who asked you? Ugh, people these days
16:34:19 <sbp> Ooh, mouse
16:34:31 <AaronSw> set itemRegexp {[regexp -nocase {<div class="rss[:o]item">(.*?)</div>} $page match contents] || [regexp -nocase {<span class="rss[:o]item">(.*?)</span>} $page match contents]}
16:34:54 <sbp> heh, you're still on that thing? is it still crashing your server?
16:34:56 <Morbus> hmmm...
16:34:57 <deltab> what's that meant to do?
16:34:59 <Morbus> any perl people in here?
16:35:03 <sbp> lol
16:35:04 <AaronSw> i guess i could call out to python or something, but that'd be a waste
16:35:32 <AaronSw> deltab, match stuff inside a <(div|span) class="rss:item">
16:35:48 <AaronSw> but anything reasonable makes stupid tcl choke
16:36:25 <AaronSw> ooh, wait, i have pywx installed, don't i
16:36:34 <sbp> class being CDATA seems like an error to me...
16:37:27 <AaronSw> hmm, maybe i don't have pywx installed
16:37:58 <sbp> "class (NMTOKENS)" in XHTML 1.1
16:38:08 <AaronSw> i think that's awesome
16:38:11 <AaronSw> no, wait
16:38:15 <AaronSw> i liked it the otherway
16:38:26 <AaronSw> stop confusing me!
16:38:44 <sbp> (which can still include ":" so that's alright)
16:38:57 <AaronSw> oh, phew
16:39:13 <Morbus> goddamit
16:39:20 <sbp> can't include "/" though, so no URI-views. Limits us to QNames, not that it matters
16:40:35 <sbp> * sbp searches for XHTML 1.0 errata
16:41:02 <sbp> aka. XHTML 1.0 2Ed
16:41:21 <AaronSw> MarkB found me some HTTP errata
16:41:28 <sbp> heh: "class       CDATA          #IMPLIED" - http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/WD-xhtml1-20011004/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd
16:41:36 <sbp> HTTP errata?
16:41:44 <AaronSw> .google http errata
16:41:46 <xena> http errata: http://www.purl.org/NET/http-errata
16:42:19 <AaronSw> argh! stupid: /usr/include/g++-2/stl_alloc.h:225: cannot call member function `SpecNsAlloc<char>::deallocate<char>(char *, unsigned int)' without object
16:43:39 <AaronSw> 15 minutes till telecon
16:44:24 <sbp> uh huh
16:44:48 <Morbus> Morbus has left #swhack
16:44:50 <sbp> out of interest, why didn't you use a non matching (div|span)?
16:45:02 <AaronSw> what do you mean by non-matching?
16:45:13 <sbp> so that it doesn't scrape out the result
16:45:23 <AaronSw> um, because the result is what i want
16:45:39 <sbp> er... you don't want "div" or "span" in the result though, do you?
16:45:49 <AaronSw> no, it isn't in the result
16:45:58 <AaronSw> i ignore the first result
16:46:01 <sbp> I mean: (?:div|span)
16:46:23 <AaronSw> i wonder if tcl supports that
16:46:51 <sbp> the syntax may be different
16:46:58 <AaronSw> it apparently didn't when i wrote this program
16:47:15 <AaronSw> now it does, i guess
16:47:21 <sbp> cool
16:47:36 <AaronSw> any C folks here?
16:47:41 <AaronSw> c++ i guess
16:48:31 <sbp> try #c++
16:49:03 <AaronSw> busy channel
16:49:15 <sbp> yeah, but quiet
16:50:13 <sbp> * sbp waits for Aaron to speak in there
16:50:54 <sbp> heh, well, that was almost as good
16:51:01 <AaronSw> heh
16:51:15 <AaronSw> * AaronSw prepares for telecon
16:51:18 <AaronSw> em, wake up
16:51:55 <sbp> * sbp thinks of changing his quit message to "Homer: You can kiss my curvy butt gooodbye"
16:51:55 <AaronSw> heh
16:52:26 <AaronSw> * AaronSw sets up the dial-out
16:52:36 <sbp> .time
16:52:37 <xena> 2001/12/20 16:54:10.5252 Universal
16:52:48 <sbp> xena's a bit fast, isn't she?
16:52:56 <AaronSw> yeah, she's all threaded and stuff
16:53:02 <sbp> poor thing
16:53:07 <AaronSw> what's VB_VBWG? Voice Browser?
16:53:23 <sbp> I guess si#o
16:53:24 <AaronSw> calling all em | calling all em
16:53:29 <sbp> er... so
16:53:42 <AaronSw> em em em em ericm eric miller Eric Miller EricM
16:54:05 <AaronSw> svl hey you get over here
16:54:14 <em> oh!
16:54:24 <AaronSw> heh
16:54:29 <sbp> heh, heh
16:54:36 <em> * em AaronSw acidently tests my little xchat nick notifier, thanks :)
16:54:40 <AaronSw> :-)
16:54:50 <AaronSw> eric, do you have access to tux.w3.org?
16:54:52 <sbp> "svl" must have done it
16:54:56 <em> yes
16:54:58 <AaronSw> do you have access to the zakim code on there?
16:55:15 <em> which code base? the zakim bot or scheduler
16:55:18 <AaronSw> zakim bot
16:55:26 <em> yes
16:55:35 <AaronSw> ok
16:55:42 <em> sbp, do you need to be dialed in?
16:55:48 <sbp> yes please
16:55:53 <em> * em dialing
16:55:57 <sbp> * sbp disconnects...
16:56:17 <AaronSw> type: perl zakimbotcode foo #swhack Swhack . swhacklog
16:56:45 <AaronSw> oops
16:56:54 <AaronSw> s/#swhack/irc://irc.openprojects.net:6667/swhack
16:57:37 <em> * em turns down music and dials sean
16:57:58 <AaronSw> please set up zakim :)
16:58:58 <sbp> sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
16:59:36 <AaronSw> perl zakim foo irc://irc.openprojects.net:6667/swhack Swhack . swhacklog
16:59:38 <AaronSw> come on
17:01:51 <AaronSw> --
17:01:58 <AaronSw> Logs for meeting (sparse)
17:02:10 <AaronSw> frank: working on a document that should tie stuff together
17:06:49 <AaronSw>  - intro
17:06:53 <AaronSw> (like sbp's
17:06:54 <AaronSw> )
17:07:04 <AaronSw>  - background / webarch / uris, xml
17:07:08 <AaronSw>  - rdf model
17:07:09 <AaronSw>  - rdf syntax
17:07:10 <AaronSw>  - schema
17:07:16 <AaronSw> (some questions)
17:07:20 <AaronSw>  - putting it all together
17:07:48 <AaronSw> fictional scenario using the stuff, generalized
17:08:03 <AaronSw> for people who already understand everything
17:08:06 <AaronSw>  - how it's being used now
17:08:10 <AaronSw>  - conclusion
17:08:47 <AaronSw> demonstrate versatility of rdf with uses
17:27:24 <em> <sbp> ooh, good point, the RDF Primer should talk a little bit about XML RDF and HTML. Hmm...
17:27:34 <em> and a statement or two about mime/types might make sense
17:28:31 <AaronSw> ah
17:42:14 <AaronSw> datatypes, contolled, subproperty/refinement
17:42:23 <AaronSw> (for putting it all together)
17:42:28 <AaronSw> storing things in files
17:42:33 <AaronSw> mime types for those files
17:42:43 <AaronSw> relating XHTML to RDF.
17:42:57 <AaronSw> file extensions
17:44:59 <AaronSw> collections
17:45:06 <AaronSw> the primer needs to hit an 80/20 point. where is the line?
17:45:15 <AaronSw> frank: decision is abstract. we don't have text
17:45:40 <AaronSw> what do we need to write now?
17:46:02 <AaronSw> 2 sections: putting it all together
17:46:06 <AaronSw> and rdf schema
17:55:42 <AaronSw> AOB: DAML+OIL and W3C Notes
17:56:25 <AaronSw> ACTION sbp: write up a user scenario to "put it all together"
17:57:44 <AaronSw> ACTION frank: write rdf model
17:58:05 <AaronSw> frank: i intend to have what's currently in the primer up to the rdf/xml syntax
17:58:11 <AaronSw> intro, background and the rdf model
17:58:18 <AaronSw> background includes identifiers
17:58:24 <AaronSw> and xml
17:58:26 <AaronSw> and namespaces
17:58:55 <AaronSw> ACTION eric: work on rdf schema portion with danbri
17:59:52 <AaronSw> aaron, eric will help sbp
18:00:25 <Morbus> Morbus (~Morbus@morbus.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack
18:01:37 <AaronSw> meeting closed
18:02:34 <AaronSw> organizing photos is a good usecase
18:02:56 <AaronSw> easily transferred to books, movies, music, webpages, etc.
18:14:20 <Morbus> organizing photos? 
18:14:28 <Morbus> i started to work on a design doc for something called cowpoke-folio.
18:14:50 <Morbus> which was going to handle all the various collections i keep - like the text files in disobey/text/, the images in disobey/horror/ and some other things.
18:14:57 <Morbus> never got around to do it, but i vitally need it. driving me nuts.
18:15:02 <AaronSw> neat
18:15:11 <AaronSw> link for the design doc
18:15:24 <Morbus> i need like three months off. then i can *really* get some stuff done ;)
18:15:34 <Morbus> design doc's not up.
18:15:41 <Morbus> word doc on the home machine. can conv and send later.
18:15:53 <AaronSw> cool
18:15:53 <Morbus> basically, it'd use static files as well.
18:15:58 <Morbus> i'm a fan of static file generation.
18:16:15 <Morbus> all the image galleries on sf and fm are strictly designed for image galleries. and they're all dynamic browsing.
18:16:29 <Morbus> i need something that creates static browsing and can be for any type of something.
18:16:41 <Morbus> but it also needs to include comments, like the ars digita galleries.
18:17:49 <AaronSw> Interesting.
18:18:08 <Morbus> right now, the program i'm using is extensis portfolio, which works decently.
18:18:17 <Morbus> it's crossplatform, supports commetning and meta, and exports to html.
18:18:29 <Morbus> but there are so many things wrong with it, that it begins to bug me, not least of which is no os x build.
18:18:49 <AaronSw> hmm
18:29:11 <AaronSw> Zakim: "The conference is restricted at this time."
18:29:13 <AaronSw> Hmmph
18:29:42 <em> ??
18:29:51 <sbp> sbp (~sean@m72-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack
18:30:07 <AaronSw> funny seeing you here!
18:30:20 <sbp> heh, heh. Is em here too?
18:30:28 <AaronSw> so he is
18:30:31 <AaronSw> .seen em
18:30:32 <xena> em seen in #swhack saying: [ ??  ] ~ 49 sec(s) ago
18:30:36 <sbp> aha
18:30:43 <sbp> * sbp reviews logs
18:30:59 <AaronSw> em, let me know when i have access to the site
18:31:05 <AaronSw> please
18:31:39 <AaronSw> and feel free to tell the web team i will make them cookies if they add webdav support :)
18:31:51 <Morbus> heh. 
18:31:54 <em> :)
18:32:20 <sbp> heh, heh
18:32:43 <sbp> O.K., the logs are much review'd, the email is pouring in. What now?
18:33:08 <AaronSw> Well, I was thinking of making up a little TODO page.
18:33:18 <sbp> Eric, on chACLing and adding issues to /rdfprimer/ space...
18:34:13 <sbp> If we have a TODO in there somewhere that'd be cool. But all new pages need to be chACLed, so you'd need to set it up. OTOH, if we don't care at the moment for world-readability, then it doesn't matter
18:34:59 <AaronSw> yeah, that's an annoying bug.
18:35:07 <AaronSw> I think I will bother the team again about webdav.
18:36:09 <sbp> ah, joy, it appears that my email has gone down, and I don't think it'll be up again for a while. WHich probably means I'll get unsubscribed from plenty of lists etc.
18:36:19 <AaronSw> fun fun fun!
18:36:24 <AaronSw> do you have control over your DNS?
18:36:45 <sbp> I do, but changes take a while, and if there's no server to back it up...
18:37:05 <AaronSw> i could lend you backup mx service, and likely deltab too
18:37:11 <AaronSw> if you're nice :)
18:37:21 <sbp> heh, heh. I suppose I have to go back some cookies
18:37:25 <sbp> er... bake
18:37:30 <AaronSw> ;)
18:38:07 <sbp> well, there's always Yahoo, or my Uni address
18:39:09 <AaronSw> but with a backup mx, you don't need to change your email address
18:39:31 <sbp> well, alternatives, alternatives
18:39:52 <AaronSw> there's also your blogspace address
18:40:00 <sbp> that forwards to mysterylights
18:40:13 <AaronSw> oh, right
18:40:35 <AaronSw> well, when i get my new server...
18:40:49 <sbp> the Linux one? you're getting it>
18:40:57 <sbp> s/>/?/
18:41:25 <AaronSw> yeah, hopefully
18:42:23 <sbp> wow, people are just throwing stuff at you. iPods, servers, cookies...
18:42:28 <AaronSw> heh heh
18:42:39 <AaronSw> well, i'd be buying the server
18:42:44 <AaronSw> it's the hosting space i need to look up
18:42:49 <sbp> you can throw stuff at yourself
18:42:56 <AaronSw> heh
18:43:03 <AaronSw> you need to make the cookies tho
18:43:21 <sbp> are you adverse to chocolate?
18:43:27 <AaronSw> yeah
18:43:44 <sbp> wonderful
18:44:34 <Morbus> yer a flipping weirdo.
18:44:43 <sbp> Well, I guess I'd better start collecting hints and tips that I've been missing out on. I should chase up the object/list issue
18:44:57 <sbp> coming from you, Morbus, well...
18:45:03 <Morbus> hehehe.
18:45:05 <Morbus> horses mouth and all.
18:45:05 <sbp> :-)
18:45:11 <sbp> polo?
18:45:15 <Morbus> beanies?
18:45:28 <sbp> beanies??
18:45:44 <Morbus> yeah, you know. the people who play polo wear those funny hats.
18:45:51 <sbp> ah, right
18:45:51 <Morbus> or maybe i'm thinking of jockeys.
18:46:07 <Morbus> word assoc. with you is fun :)
18:46:14 <sbp> joyous
18:46:18 <Morbus> rapturous
18:46:27 <sbp> enchanting
18:46:33 <Morbus> bewitching
18:46:45 <sbp> seductive
18:46:48 <Morbus> alluring
18:46:52 <sbp> foxy
18:47:00 <Morbus> hehe...
18:47:02 <sbp> :-)
18:47:04 <Morbus> all i can think of is houndish.
18:47:04 <Morbus> <G>
18:47:09 <sbp> eek
18:47:13 <Morbus> yeah, i know. 
18:47:19 <sbp> you and your odd plot-twists
18:47:19 <Morbus> that's the first thing that popped into my mind.
18:47:25 <Morbus> and a little voice is like "that's not really a word" 
18:47:30 <Morbus> "i don't care, its a disney cartoon"
18:47:36 <Morbus> "yeah, he's gonna call you a weirdo again"
18:47:41 <Morbus> "houndishhoundishhoundish"
18:47:51 <Morbus> "just laugh! just laugh and use this as a new conversation"
18:47:54 <Morbus> "oh, that's a good idea".
18:47:58 <Morbus> and here we are.
18:48:09 <sbp> lol! the little voice whom Morbus obeys
18:48:12 <Morbus> hehehe :)
18:49:14 <sbp> so, Morby, object or list?
18:49:30 <sbp> well, the list would be an object too, but who cares about terminology?
18:50:28 <sbp> .google multiple objects vs. lists in RDF
18:50:30 <xena> multiple objects vs. lists in RDF: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Jun/0386.html
18:51:06 <sbp> Hmm... that's pretty irrelevent
18:51:31 <sbp> DanC said that he talked about it on #rdfig, when someone was creating an email schema, but I just can't find it
18:51:49 <sbp> I can vaguely remember it, but logger reveals nothing
18:52:59 <AaronSw> i think he was doing currying and stuff
18:53:03 <AaronSw> and it was filsa with the email schema
18:53:26 <sbp> I know - I even found where filsa was taking about it
18:53:52 <Morbus> filsa?
18:54:02 <Morbus> that name rings a bell. did he start a cms list with cam barrett?
18:54:30 <sbp> aha! http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfig/2001-07-25.txt
18:54:31 <AaronSw> yep
18:54:33 <AaronSw> to Morbus
18:54:38 <sbp> hooray! found it
18:55:46 <AaronSw> cool
18:57:17 <sbp> Gotta run
18:57:18 <sbp> sbp has quit ("Homer: 20 dollars? I wanted a peanut!")
19:00:02 <Morbus> whoo hoo! new update to bbedit.
19:00:53 <Morbus> [[[
19:00:54 <Morbus> If the "Use Mac OS X Developer Help" box is enabled and checked, -and- you are running on Mac OS X, then BBEdit will always hand off API lookups to the Mac OS X Developer Help Center, in preference to the specified application. Among other things, this makes life easier for anyone who spends time working in both Mac OS 9 and OS X.
19:00:55 <Morbus> ]]]
19:00:59 <Morbus> yay!
19:01:22 <Morbus> [[[
19:01:23 <Morbus> "Version 1.0.1 of the "bbedit" command-line tool now supports the "-w" argument: when used in conjunction with a single file, the tool will block until the file is closed within the BBEdit application. This allows version 1.0.1 of the "bbedit" tool to be used as an external editor for Unix tools that use the EDITOR global variable. To make this work, add the following line to your .tcshrc file:"
19:01:24 <Morbus> ]]]
19:01:26 <Morbus> yay!
19:01:53 <Morbus> lol. um. whats this mean? "Twist lists use theme dinkers on 9 now."
19:02:25 <AaronSw> sheesh, pepper has had that forever
19:02:41 <Morbus> i dunno what that is?
19:02:48 <AaronSw> no the other things
19:03:11 <Morbus> how long is foreveer?
19:03:40 <Morbus> "Support for the Python command line debugger."
19:03:43 <Morbus> OooOOOoh ;)
19:04:31 <Morbus> "When running on OS X, Python scripts can now be included and executed by the HTML includes processor. The calling convention is the same as that used for Perl includes. (NOTE: Such scripts get no special treatment when running on Mac OS 9, and will thus likely cause MacPerl to choke.)"
19:04:47 <Morbus> they have an example of a script here: http://www.barebones.com/support/bbedit/bbedit-notes.html
19:09:16 <Morbus> heheheh!
19:09:27 <Morbus> this is what barebones replied with on the "what this twist list thing":
19:09:33 <Morbus> "It was an opportunity for gratuitous use of the word "dinker", of course."
19:09:39 <AaronSw> heh
19:10:09 <AaronSw> @ http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=421&page=13
19:10:17 <chumpster> E: http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=421&page=13 from AaronSw
19:10:25 <AaronSw> E:|Be's Metadata Filesystem
19:10:26 <chumpster> titled item E
19:11:45 <AaronSw> E::Boy does this make me drool. Of course with Apple's crusade against metadata, it'll likely never happen on OS X. :-(
19:11:46 <chumpster> commented item E
19:13:25 <Morbus> have you ever lied to make a joke funnier?
19:14:56 <AaronSw> probably
19:16:34 <Morbus> lol: "Teal was missing from the CSS1 built-in colors list. This has been fixed, but we still think teal is ugly."
19:18:08 <Morbus> this is an interesting design issue: http://www.listserv.acm.org/archives/wa.cgi?A2=ind0111e&L=chi-web&F=&S=&P=196
19:20:27 <Morbus> man, there are still people who look at the keyboard when they type?
19:20:31 <Morbus> that concept seems so foreign to me.
19:20:41 <Morbus> its like looking at a pencil instead of the paper.
19:20:55 <AaronSw> heh
19:21:19 <AaronSw> i generally look at the point where the pencil hits the paper
19:27:42 <Morbus> i ahte going to the bathroom in public places.
19:27:50 <Morbus> i always worry that an alligator is gonna come outta the toilet.
19:27:56 <Morbus> at least at home, it'll be *my* alligator.
19:28:06 <Morbus> in public, i just don't know where that alligator has been.
19:28:20 <AaronSw> oh dear
19:28:40 <Morbus> what?
19:30:02 <AaronSw> nothing, nothing
19:30:10 <Morbus> hey, i'm not serious.
19:30:20 <Morbus> i was in the bathroom just now, and was thinking about alligators for some reason.
19:30:30 <Morbus> then it just developed into something to say to you.
19:30:36 <Morbus> don't look at me, it just happens.
19:40:43 <Morbus> AaronSw, do you have the same problem with HTML files that dont have type/creator and ie 5?
19:40:49 <Morbus> ie 5 just won't open them without a t/c
19:40:59 <AaronSw> not noticed them
19:41:07 <Morbus> jeez. happens to me all the flipping time. drives me bonkers
19:41:23 <Morbus> at this point, instead of messing with t/c, i edit and then throw up on the web live to test.
19:41:27 <AaronSw> sbp, http://www.w3.org/2001/09/rdfprimer/todo
19:41:57 <Morbus> what the hell is a "schenario"?
19:41:57 <Morbus> <G>
19:42:12 <AaronSw> schutup
19:42:18 <Morbus> heheh
19:50:09 <Morbus> heh. i don't trust anyone who uses the term "dot.bomb" as part of their marketing spiel.
19:50:26 <AaronSw> heh heh
19:53:21 <Morbus> hey AaronSw, out of boredom, do you think someday you could create a daily gz of the logfiles? i'd love to mass archive them sometime.
19:53:38 <AaronSw> a gz of all of them?
19:53:43 <Morbus> yeah.
19:53:50 <Morbus> well, all of one format.
19:53:50 <AaronSw> yeah, i have that already
19:53:58 <Morbus> oh. ok. cool. is it avail?
19:54:11 <AaronSw> http://blogspace.com/swhack/chatlogs/textlogs.tgz
19:54:20 <Morbus> cool.
20:01:01 <sbp> sbp (~sean@m529-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack
20:01:12 <Morbus> hey sean, funny, i just came across this: http://www.info-arch.org/hypermail/sigia-l/0109/0258.html
20:01:24 <Morbus> which is only related peripherally to conv.'s we had.
20:02:12 <sbp> heh, I note the link
20:02:43 <AaronSw> the w3c has good taste in stylesheets: http://www.w3.org/2001/09/rdfprimer/todo
20:02:44 <AaronSw> ;-)
20:03:15 <sbp> heh, yes...
20:03:59 <sbp> we're going to be collecting items on that page, I presume?
20:04:06 <AaronSw> what sort of items?
20:04:22 <sbp> Well, is it a notepad, or just a TODO list?
20:04:53 <AaronSw> a little of both, i suppose
20:04:57 <sbp> ooh, Amaya crashed
20:05:13 <Morbus> see, the w3 and i are smart.
20:05:20 <Morbus> we name important projects with an A.
20:05:25 <Morbus> so that we get listed first ;)
20:05:31 <AaronSw> heh heh
20:05:40 <sbp> aaargh! It crashed again!
20:05:51 <em> em has quit ("[x]chat")
20:05:52 <Morbus> its also psychologic.
20:06:05 <Morbus> since it seems, the most frequent outbursts start with "a".
20:06:07 <AaronSw> lol
20:06:20 <Morbus> argh, ack, ah! 
20:06:25 <sbp> oh, this is just getting annoying now. Every time I browse through JigEdit, it just crashes
20:06:27 <Morbus> awwwww
20:06:30 <Morbus> annoying.
20:06:33 <Morbus> see. its true.
20:06:37 <em> em (~em@dhcp065-024-049-132.columbus.rr.com) has joined #swhack
20:08:03 <sbp> Hmm... I can't get "todo" on the list
20:08:25 <AaronSw> what list?
20:10:34 <Morbus> lol. hey AaronSw: http://www.info-arch.org/hypermail/sigia-l/0109/0235.html
20:10:39 <Morbus> i should send this to that apple guy.
20:10:52 <em> * em pokes sbp to check it out
20:10:55 <AaronSw> what apple guy?
20:11:17 <Morbus> that guy to annoy about the python osax thing. or something.
20:12:11 <sbp> * sbp done
20:13:06 <AaronSw> sbp, can i check something in now?
20:13:07 <sbp> Hmm... class="headline" doesn't style right in Amaya. I wonder if that's a bug?
20:13:15 <sbp> sure
20:13:17 <AaronSw> doesn't style right in my browser either
20:13:42 <AaronSw> Ok, this iteration is much better.
20:13:59 <sbp> 1.8, yep
20:14:53 <AaronSw> and them from this page we can link to drafts, etc.
20:16:12 <AaronSw> I really think it'd be cool to do a collaborative project like this with Ceres and the Nakoji view.
20:16:26 <AaronSw> I'll have to ask Mark about that.
20:16:49 <AaronSw> Oops, Nakakoji
20:22:36 <sbp> have you saved your current version? O.K. if I add some references quickly?
20:22:54 <AaronSw> sure
20:23:10 <AaronSw> you're editing the version with the intro, right?
20:23:20 <AaronSw> 1.9
20:23:33 <Morbus> [[[
20:23:38 <Morbus> So we've created fsl-discuss. The list charter is:  Legal issues concerning free software.
20:23:45 <Morbus> This includes: licensing (in a general sense, specific issues of, say, 
20:23:45 <Morbus> OSI certification should be directed to the OSI license-discuss 
20:23:45 <Morbus> list), patent, trademark, legislation, standards, international 
20:23:45 <Morbus> treaties, and other aspects of law.  The list is intended for   
20:23:45 <Morbus> general discussion.
20:23:50 <Morbus>     http://lists.alt.org/mailman/listinfo/fsl-discuss      ]]]
20:24:48 <sbp> yes, 1.9... (although Amaya just crashed... aaargh!)
20:25:04 <Morbus> Morbus has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:25:12 <Morbus> Morbus (~Morbus@morbus.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack
20:25:21 <Morbus> um.
20:25:46 <sbp> Grpgmrpmgh: "Amaya: Saving to todo.html... seems corrupted. Ignore?"
20:25:55 <AaronSw> heh
20:26:10 <AaronSw> turn off the "annoy me" option in the Special menu
20:26:23 <sbp> heh, it worked, but for some reason Amaya stripped "rel="stylesheet"" from the link in the head
20:26:27 <sbp> heh, heh, if only...
20:27:52 <sbp> so, it took 3-5 crashes, a few windows open, and a lot of effort just to add a few mesly lines (I even had to edit the source just to paste it in). *And* to cap it off, it stripped out a bit of the code so that there's no style. And people look at me funny when I say that I don't like Amaya? Man...
20:28:00 <sbp> s/mesly/measly/
20:28:01 <AaronSw> * AaronSw adds back the rel=stylesheet
20:28:05 <sbp> thanks
20:28:31 <AaronSw> sure
20:28:39 <sbp> * sbp mails off a bug report to www-amaya... oh hang on, I can't really if my mail's broken
20:29:03 <sbp> Aaron, could you mail them for me? Just say then when saving through JigEdit, it strips off the rel="stylesheet" for no apparent reason
20:30:09 <AaronSw> Have you tested this multiple times?
20:30:18 <AaronSw> why can't you send if your mail is down?
20:30:24 <sbp> nope, only the once. I'll save it again if you like
20:30:32 <AaronSw> no, please try it on some other file!
20:30:38 <sbp> heh, heh
20:32:20 <sbp> seems to work alright locally
20:33:39 <sbp> heh, all of the dates in the EARL directory are either 1999 Feb 10 or 2001 Dec 20. I think somethings up there...
20:33:48 <sbp> s/somethings/something's/
20:33:56 <AaronSw> heh
20:36:20 <sbp> Hmm... it worked on an EARL file that I just updated (that had some broken linked that I fixed in the process)
20:36:38 <sbp> Perhaps it's just a one-off
20:39:49 <sbp> N.B. Technical schema namespace for RDF Photo stuff: "http://www.w3.org/2000/PhotoRDF/technical-1-0#"
20:40:06 <sbp> lol:-
20:40:06 <sbp> [[[
20:40:07 <sbp>     <label xml:lang="en">Camera</label>
20:40:07 <sbp>     <label xml:lang="fr">Camera</label>
20:40:07 <sbp>     <label xml:lang="nl">Camera</label>
20:40:07 <sbp> ]]]
20:40:23 <Morbus> hehehe.
20:42:09 <sbp> Yuck, they use RDF ID throughout, and they have an XML comment in devel-date, stating to use W3C date/time. Then again, it is quite old, and we're still not sure what to do about datatypes
20:43:54 <AaronSw> yeah, further proof xml:lang rocks!
20:44:26 <AaronSw> * AaronSw was off playing with Ceres
20:44:39 <Morbus> ceres was the name of a chick from a final fantasy game.
20:44:42 <Morbus> are you growing up too fast, AaronSw?
20:44:53 <AaronSw> heh, no -- the other ceres
20:45:03 <AaronSw> no mac os x version for it yet so it needs its whole computer
20:45:14 <Morbus> i'm dumb. what's ceres?
20:45:30 <AaronSw> you talked about it once -- eastgate.com
20:45:37 <Morbus> OOoh!
20:45:38 <Morbus> ok. 
20:45:55 <AaronSw> bbl
20:47:35 <sbp> O.K., so the scenario is that we're building photo categorization software... and we are
20:47:50 <Morbus> strictly a scenaro? or true.
20:47:57 <sbp> it's both
20:48:20 <sbp> we're basically doing this and documenting as we go so that we have something to chat about in the RDF Primer
20:48:36 <AaronSw> but we're not going to document the stupid mistakes unlike _some people_
20:48:36 <Morbus> ah. ok.
20:48:41 <Morbus> lol.
20:48:44 <Morbus> look bastard.
20:48:48 <Morbus> no one said my articles sucked <G>
20:48:58 <sbp> I'm basically trying to get straight the kind of things that we need to be talking about to people. For a start, there's the whole rigmorale of looking up past work (which I'm doing now)
20:49:29 <sbp> That's more of a hint/tip thing than anything else (investigate previous work - do your research!)
20:50:06 <Morbus> when you get something done, i want to see.
20:50:12 <Morbus> the topic interests me as well as the imp.
20:50:43 <sbp> then, constructing a schema. Which brings us to the question of: do you use other people's data? How do you know whether something is a standard? It's a collorary to the previous point
20:50:59 <sbp> well, if you'd like to hack something up for us :-) Do it in Python...
20:51:24 <AaronSw> we should tell the relevant parties about this
20:51:26 <AaronSw> that's a good tip
20:51:35 <AaronSw> since i'm sure others are working on this stuff
20:51:40 <Morbus> i know no stinkin' python.
20:51:53 <sbp> In the RDF Photo stuff, they used Dublin Core, plus a few terms of their own. Nothing wrong with that - it seemed to work for them. Of course, if you have hundreds of terms all over the place... where does one draw the line?
20:52:47 <sbp> Then we get to implementation. So: Requirements, Research, Schema Research, Schema Design, Implementation, Test run, Deployment
20:54:35 <sbp> I have very little clue at this point as to what to do about implementation. Y'can put the metadata in the photos (like RDFPic), or keep it external (seems the most straightforward approach). The latter seems to be what we're trying to do - because if we're going to have queries, then we want to have the data readily available
20:55:24 <sbp> so, we need a system for adding metadata to the store, and querying the store. Hint/Tip: Use current RDF APIs if you can (*cough* PlexRDF *cough*), simply because other people know more than you do. Go figure
20:55:55 <Morbus> you know, the article only told people how to do things wrong so i could demonstrate how to troubleshoot with the log files.
20:56:04 <sbp> heh, line through r',([^\n]+?)'
20:56:14 <sbp> sure, Morbus, sure... :-0
20:56:20 <sbp> s/:-0/:-)/
20:56:24 <Morbus> sniff. 
20:56:42 <sbp> aw... I keep making you sniff lately. Or have you got a cold?
20:57:00 <Morbus> no, you make me feel dejected. like i don't  belong in your world. its very disconcerting.
20:57:25 <sbp> no, it was a very nice article. Resplendent in it's manner
20:57:36 <Morbus> but insulting in its path!
20:57:39 <sbp> well, you don't belong in my world, but that's another story
20:57:52 <Morbus> gasp! 
20:57:57 <Morbus> sbp! my heart!
20:59:18 <sbp> Heh, well... that's the way it is :-) Castle of Crows, rocky outcrops, swords in the sand, and all that malarkey
20:59:36 <Morbus> i'm never talking to you again.
20:59:57 <sbp> pardon?
21:00:22 <sbp> damn, he didn't fall for it
21:00:27 <sbp> * sbp plays "Fool In The Rain"
21:08:57 <sbp> Hmm... another RDF Photo thingy: http://www.computer.org/intelligent/ex2001/x3066abs.htm
21:11:27 <em> * em wanders past and points sbp at adobe's xmp implmentation http://www.adobe.com/products/xmp/main.html as another possible means for managaing metadata and images
21:11:47 <sbp> ah, XMP... you seemed quite taken with that when it was released
21:12:52 <sbp> * sbp is quite sure he downloaded that...
21:13:30 <sbp> * sbp gets it again, anyway (so much stuff zipped on my computer)
21:13:42 <em> yes, i am... but i'm taken with organizations (a) commited to providing tools for support metadata and (b) using RDF to solve their problems in general
21:14:19 <em> * em heads back to work
21:14:34 <sbp> I can't look a bit of data these days without thinking "Hmm... that should be in RDF"
21:14:36 <sbp> c'ya, em
21:14:48 <em> Morbus, did you ever make availiable web/cgi based amphetadesk?
21:15:01 <Morbus> nope. haven't touched ampheta for a few months, unfortunately.
21:15:07 <em> sbp, keep thinking... thats the spirit! :)
21:15:20 <sbp> :-)
21:15:32 <em> moved on to other things?
21:15:44 <sbp> I think he's scared of threading it
21:15:49 <Morbus> not intentionally, no. 
21:16:01 <Morbus> just other things have gotten in the way. ora, syncasaurus for a month...
21:16:16 <Morbus> i'm right at the point of releasing a 1.0 that's "perfect".
21:16:34 <Morbus> so a lot of time now is being spent on user stuff. documentation. recombing over bugs. testing everything again. designing icons, installers.
21:16:38 <Morbus> all packaging crap and not code.
21:16:51 <Morbus> the only new "feature" i'm planning on adding is proxy support. everything else is 1.0 junk.
21:16:52 <em> syncasaurus in rdf?
21:17:08 <Morbus> although, i'll be jumping to 1.1, since i hate when people say "point oh" and not "point zero".
21:17:18 <Morbus> syncasaurus uses xbel for its data storage
21:17:31 <em> aarggg...
21:17:48 <em> * em always thought xbel should have been rdf
21:17:49 <AaronSw> heh
21:17:52 <AaronSw> I tried.
21:18:44 <Morbus> hey, don't yell at me. 
21:19:10 <Morbus> do you know about syncasaurus?
21:19:24 <em> arrgg... sure cross-platform bookmarking makes sense, but cross-sharing is going to be next step, see-also sharing, etc.etc.. no coherent model makes for a next to impossible codeset
21:19:32 <sbp> http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/2001/10/08/2001-10-08.html#1002578362.134217
21:19:50 <Morbus> ah. yes, sharing was going to be possible... this is the thing, em, and generically to everyone here.
21:19:56 <Morbus> i write software for morons. thats who i care for.
21:20:04 <sbp> heh, heh
21:20:08 <rillian> rillian (~giles@user-24-214-92-87.knology.net) has joined #swhack
21:20:09 <Morbus> i have a really hard time using all this great stuff, and making it *easy* for people to use and understand.
21:20:17 <em> Morbus, if it make syou feel better... i'm a moron :)
21:20:22 <Morbus> in ampheta, people *never* know about the xml.
21:20:36 <em> nor should they!
21:20:38 <rillian> * rillian looks at the topic. "so last year"
21:20:38 <sbp> except for the little [XML] logos
21:20:41 <Morbus> in syncasaurus, its the same thing. i dont mention xml at all, much less xbel, rss, opml or whatever.
21:20:52 <em> again, nor should you.   
21:20:56 <sbp> last year: heh
21:21:15 <Morbus> ok. tell me how to design a ui to make rdf perfect in syncasaurus.
21:21:18 <AaronSw> lol, rillian
21:21:20 <Morbus> i start with the ui.
21:21:34 <Morbus> the imp fits the ui, not the other way around. thats' how i work.
21:21:42 <Morbus> heh, hhe.
21:22:03 <AaronSw> AaronSw has changed the topic to: eXtensible BEL, eXtensible BEL, eXtending all the way...
21:22:10 <Morbus> oh lord <g>
21:22:19 <em> * em wish he had time to explain we're in agreement, but has to run
21:22:20 <sbp> ouch
21:22:23 <AaronSw> oh what fun it is to use software with rdf every day
21:22:28 <AaronSw> hey!
21:22:30 <sbp> aaargh!
21:22:33 <Morbus> perhaps another time then.
21:22:33 <AaronSw> eXtensible BEL, eXtensible BEL, eXtending all the way
21:22:59 <AaronSw> we'll have to eXtend this BEL perhaps some other day.
21:23:02 <AaronSw> </song>
21:23:13 <Morbus> dont' you mean </rdf:song>
21:23:16 <Morbus> look. i made a funny.
21:23:23 <sbp> :Song - a class
21:25:07 <sbp> shouldn't be too hard to RDFize: http://pyxml.sourceforge.net/topics/dtds/xbel-1.0.dtd
21:25:34 <sbp> try that on for SWize
21:29:16 <AaronSw> so what are we writing our photo management thingy in?
21:29:26 <AaronSw> I was thinking Zope, but then I remembered that I hate Zope.
21:29:47 <Morbus> perl!
21:30:01 <AaronSw> Well, obviously it's Python.
21:30:18 <sbp> heh, heh, how could you forget?
21:30:24 <AaronSw> Heh.
21:30:28 <AaronSw> The two main choices I know of are http://skunkweb.sourceforge.net/ and webware.
21:30:38 <AaronSw> http://webware.sourceforge.net/
21:31:10 <AaronSw> Or we could sort of mess around with PyWX.
21:31:46 <sbp> SkunkDAV?
21:32:19 <AaronSw> It's a WebDAV client.
21:32:56 <sbp> cool. Well, I'm not experienced with either at the moment, so pick one, and I'll download etc.
21:33:12 <AaronSw> I'll take SkunkWEB
21:33:37 <Morbus> Making the Web Smelly
21:33:44 <AaronSw> Heh: "OTOH, this makes it probably not run on Windows, but it may run under Windows with the Cygwin toolkit. Besides, windows has enough problems."
21:33:52 <Morbus> heh.
21:34:30 <sbp> Hmm... well, I'll try it
21:34:38 <AaronSw> You'll try what?
21:34:52 <sbp> where's that quote from?
21:34:54 <AaronSw> Oh, are we both trying the same one?
21:34:56 <tav> hmz
21:34:59 <AaronSw> That's from SkunkWeb
21:35:03 <AaronSw> oops, tav found us out
21:35:03 <tav> photo product for zope is v.nice
21:35:06 <sbp> yeah
21:35:11 <AaronSw> everyone hide!
21:35:14 <sbp> no Zope
21:35:26 <AaronSw> tav, does it use RDF?
21:35:42 <tav> you can make it use rdf with ease
21:35:44 <sbp> .google Photo Product Zope RDF
21:35:45 <xena> Photo Product Zope RDF: http://www.zopegeeks.org/995618270/index_html
21:37:00 <AaronSw> I mean, its slogan is "Smell the Power". How can you pass that up?
21:37:17 <Morbus> lol. oh man, it is? heh.
21:37:55 <Morbus> [[[
21:37:55 <Morbus> Larry Lessig is the guest on the Diane Rehm show and  RIAA droid, Hilary 
21:37:55 <Morbus> Rosen is a caller.  Should be interesting shit. I"m listening now.
21:37:55 <Morbus> http://www.wamu.org/dr/index.html
21:37:56 <Morbus> ]]]
21:37:59 <Morbus> wait. dammit.
21:38:09 <Morbus> i forgot most of you are on fork already.
21:38:11 <sbp> sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m918-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com)))
21:38:24 <AaronSw> lol: http://www.krinst.org/machine/index.html
21:38:26 <sbp> sbp (~sean@m918-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack
21:38:30 <AaronSw> lol: http://www.krinst.org/machine/index.html
21:38:53 <tav> http://www.zope.org/Members/rbickers/Photo
21:39:32 <tav> ooooh, new version was even added today
21:39:50 <rillian> <skydog> I'm starting a 'Save Glorfindel' group, who's with me?
21:40:37 <AaronSw> Heh.
21:40:41 <Morbus> hehe.
21:40:48 <Morbus> rillian, there's a lotr review on my gamegrene.com
21:41:48 <sbp> So, Morby, when's the third coming out?
21:42:08 <rillian> didn't seem long to me, actually
21:43:51 <kenm> kenm (~ken@kmacleod.static.iaxs.net) has joined #swhack
21:44:12 <kenm> Aaron!  we agree on Be's attributes!
21:44:21 <AaronSw> Awesome!
21:44:51 <AaronSw> Ah, I should have expected you to like those. :)
21:45:24 <AaronSw> Now how do we get those into Mac OS X? :)
21:45:40 <AaronSw> Hmm, looks like SkunkWEB needs Apache.
21:45:49 <Morbus> i know apache! <G>
21:45:56 <kenm> start at the bottom edges first, then work inwards and upwards.
21:45:58 <AaronSw> heh
21:46:00 <Morbus> whoo, i'm wanted!
21:46:02 <Morbus> :)
21:46:12 <AaronSw> where's apache on my machine?
21:46:30 <Morbus> os x? the conf are in /etc/httpd/
21:46:37 <Morbus> but you can check out httpd -V to get more path info
21:46:50 <kenm> specifically, it's not the file system or the few applications that were what hurt Be's file system the worst, but the fact that very few standard utilities supported them cross-platform
21:47:53 <kenm> get gnu-tar and bintools supporting attributes first, then say, "oh, wouldn't it be nice if we had filesystem support, too?"
21:48:18 <AaronSw> Hmm.
21:49:09 <kenm> in there somewhere you'll have to solve the standard file problem, but you can look to Bento (Apple's storage system for OpenDoc, a la McCusker), it stored metainfo at the end of files
21:50:21 <AaronSw> Yes, that'd certainly be cool.
21:51:07 <kenm> oh, and one problem Be's attributes had was a naming problem, so include support for namespaces.  that'd be a good segue into RDF, too
21:51:26 <AaronSw> yeah, the attributes are pretty clearly rdf, which i like :)
21:52:17 <AaronSw> hmm, it's not my day for c
21:53:20 <rillian> kenm: metadata at the end of files? like id3?
21:54:20 <kenm> is that how they do it?  what I understand is that the Bento folks did a pretty good survey and found that most tools don't barf on extra data passed the end of the structured data they expect
21:55:01 <rillian> id3 is like that, yah
21:55:19 <rillian> it's just an especially ugly example because mpeg actual has a packet format for metadata
21:56:02 <kenm> bento could work with that.  they had a handful of rules
21:57:10 <sbp> sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
21:57:42 <kenm> there's also another big semantic problem with attributes: which attributes belong with the file, vs. which attributes are entirely context-based
21:58:18 <kenm> you could maybe get by with a coloring scheme, but that's still only barely touching the problem
21:59:55 <AaronSw> examples of context-based?
22:00:15 <kenm> personal annotations
22:00:31 <rillian> .f2c 45
22:00:31 <xena> 45.0°F = 7.22222222222°C
22:00:33 <kenm> position in window and other UI info
22:00:51 <AaronSw> ah
22:01:19 <kenm> that's another place where Be's fascination with a single user really hit them hard.
22:03:25 <kenm> Apple has a very similar problem, specifically with folder positions on net servers
22:04:03 <AaronSw> annoying dotfiles
22:05:08 <kenm> you mean the dotfiles holding the metainfo?  that's not the problem I refer to ;)
22:05:23 <AaronSw> what do you mean then?
22:05:24 <AaronSw> hmm, SkunkWEB looks really nice.
22:05:46 <AaronSw> it does caching by default and lets you put max-age at the top of "components"
22:06:39 <kenm> To this day, the position of an icon in a folder is "wherever the last person put it"
22:07:19 <AaronSw> instead of wherever i put it last?
22:07:21 <kenm> ie. not multi-user friendly, which is what I was dinging Be for too
22:07:45 <AaronSw> hmm
22:08:56 <AaronSw> the skunkweb syntax looks a little messed, but overall it looks very nice
22:09:10 <AaronSw> much the way i wanted the acs to work, actually
22:09:13 <kenm> RDF, with all its contextual vagueness, is well suited to not solving this problem ;)
22:09:28 <Morbus> sigh.
22:09:29 <AaronSw> heh heh... hey!
22:09:41 <Morbus> remember p2pq.net, AaronSw? its done absolutely NOTHING since I told you about it. that makes me so flippign sad.
22:09:48 <AaronSw> awww.
22:09:57 <Morbus> i think its an insanely good idea.
22:10:08 <Morbus> maybe i'll do something like it using rdf.
22:10:15 <Morbus> * Morbus hopes em was around to hear that.
22:12:31 <AaronSw> wow, Skunky even has these nice message catalogs.
22:12:51 <Morbus> whats a message catalog?
22:13:15 <AaronSw> it lets you put text in a separate file, so that you can easily reuse it, spell check it, translate it, etc.
22:13:44 <Morbus> ah. um. why is that called a message catalog?
22:13:56 <AaronSw> i have no idea.
22:13:58 <kenm> hey, 15 year old technology rocks!
22:14:04 <AaronSw> heh
22:14:07 <Morbus> yeah, last i knew, i called that a text file :)
22:14:14 <AaronSw> probably because it keeps a bunch of messages in a form like a catalog.
22:14:23 <AaronSw> no, like all the messages are in one file
22:14:27 <Morbus> i dunno, man.
22:14:35 <AaronSw> see this: http://skunkweb.sourceforge.net/stmlrefer/node51.html
22:14:42 <Morbus> sigh. i get frustred at the usablity of stuff.
22:14:43 <AaronSw> Mac OS X does this too, now.
22:15:00 <Morbus> yeah, i've seen then.
22:15:02 <Morbus> them, rather
22:15:24 <kenm> gettext calles 'em message databases
22:15:51 <AaronSw> i wonder if the ACS ever got them.. they were talking about them for a while.
22:16:01 <Morbus> i'd much rather say "this is a text file in a certain format that is easily editable" than "this is a message catalog" and then worry about people like me asking what the hell they are.
22:16:43 <AaronSw> saying that it's a text file doesn't tell you its purpose.
22:16:48 <Morbus> or hell, in the example case, this would be a localized text file, or i18n or whatever
22:16:54 <AaronSw> ken here taught me everything i know about usability for programmers.
22:17:01 <Morbus> oh yeah?
22:17:06 <AaronSw> yeah
22:17:06 <kenm> no, no, on Unix boxen that's *assumed*, so yer left with describing what it *is* ;)
22:17:14 <Morbus> heh, heh. yes, quite true, ken :)
22:17:45 <AaronSw> unless you're using zope :)
22:17:45 <Morbus> well, message catalog, in this case, seems to be nothing more than another type of "text file". it still doesn't tell me what type of message is in this catalog.
22:17:59 <Morbus> another type of *phrase* like text file.
22:18:06 <kenm> uhm, "messages"? ;)
22:18:13 <AaronSw> do you have a better suggestion, Morbus?
22:18:28 <tav> hmz
22:18:46 <Morbus> i don't think dumbing down something into a phrase is a good idea.
22:18:50 <tav> the thing i hate about skunkweb is lack of persistence
22:18:58 <AaronSw> Well, that's why they explain it nicely, Morbus.
22:19:00 <AaronSw> """In many web applications, you will find that you need to display text messages to the web user, such as error messages, alert messages, ``success'' messages, and so forth."""
22:19:04 <AaronSw>  - http://skunkweb.sourceforge.net/stmlrefer/node47.html
22:19:22 <Morbus> so, as mentioned, i would say, hey, this example is a localized text file. edit the text within to change the messages shown in the ui. 
22:19:25 <tav> limits what you can do with it
22:19:35 <AaronSw> tav, what do you mean? it has this PyDO with database independence
22:19:36 <rillian> how about 'foo.strings'?
22:19:50 <Morbus> nope. string is a programmer term. i'd never use that for a user app
22:19:58 <AaronSw> Morbus, it's for programmers!
22:20:05 <Morbus> i'm a programmer.
22:20:23 <Morbus> i guess i'm not their kind of programmer ;)
22:20:23 <AaronSw> i'm really not sure what you're getting at.
22:20:50 <Morbus> i'm just being picky. 
22:20:57 <AaronSw> yeah, no kidding.
22:21:01 <Morbus> i shouldn't have to ask what a message catalog is.
22:21:05 <AaronSw> why?!
22:21:15 <AaronSw> you don't believe in names for things?
22:22:00 <kenm> every project has their pet names, they have to, otherwise IRC conversation would read like this: "hey, Zaphod, can you add error 3 to the file that contains messages that can be translated into any language yet uses a nice structured format"
22:22:00 <AaronSw> tav, have you looked at PyDO at all?
22:22:01 <tav> AaronSw: i meant on it's own
22:22:15 <Morbus> i don't believe in names for things that can create confusion. i'd be inifnitely happier if they just ditched the catalog name, and said "message text file"
22:22:19 <AaronSw> tav, i'd think that modularity would be a benefit, not a bug
22:23:07 <kenm> Morbus: are you not a Unix weenie?
22:23:08 <AaronSw> catalog vs. textfile. i dunno, seems the height of pickiness.
22:23:23 <deltab> catlog seems more descriptive to me
22:23:43 <Morbus> i'm a unix weenie, yes, but i'm also a usability, ui, chi, weenie.
22:23:51 <tav> no, i haven't looked at it yet, i looked at skunk a while back whilst looking for zope alternatives
22:23:51 <AaronSw> yeah, text file is an implementation where as catalog is a concept
22:24:10 <AaronSw> like databases can be structured text files, but they can also be compressed and indexed stores.
22:24:24 <Morbus> like a store that you walk into and buy shit? <G>
22:24:41 <Morbus> so that's how catalogs and stores relate. finally. thanks.
22:24:47 <AaronSw> heh heh.
22:24:52 <AaronSw> at least they're consistent.
22:24:58 <Morbus> heh, heh.
22:26:39 <AaronSw> tav, you also have all the normal forms of python persistence. like we'll probably use some PlexRDF store for this project.
22:27:11 <AaronSw> and you said that we could import the ZODB too, right?
22:27:15 <tav> yes
22:27:19 <AaronSw> cool
22:27:40 <tav> what is "this project" btw?
22:27:59 <AaronSw> We're doing an example project for the RDF Primer.
22:28:01 <Morbus> i've always wanted to write something called JAYA.
22:28:07 <Morbus> "just another yet another"
22:28:11 <deltab> "an enumeration of things; a complete list of things usually arranged systematically" - sounds like a message catalog to me
22:28:23 <tav> hmz, /me tries to recall what jaya means in hindi
22:28:29 <Morbus> look at all those one dollar words, though,.
22:28:46 <tav> ah (to rdf primer)
22:28:53 <deltab> that's dictionaries for you
22:28:55 <tav> hmz
22:29:08 <tav> skunkweb's matured a lot since i last saw it
22:29:18 <Morbus> i shouldn't have to think about what they mean. the true nature of what this is and how semantically correct we can all be isn't important. all i need to know is that its a text file that messages live in. i can change the messages, and thus change the responses the ui gives me.
22:29:35 <AaronSw> and you would have found that out had you rtfm
22:29:39 <deltab> "message catalog" seems perfectly descriptive to me
22:30:16 <AaronSw> i mean, i could nitpick such things about amphetadesk too. i mean, what in the world is an aggregator?
22:30:34 <deltab> something that collects something
22:30:46 <AaronSw> oh, like a text file? ;-)
22:30:57 <Morbus> right, and i say that in the exact same sentence, AaronSw:
22:31:02 <Morbus> "downloads the latest news that interests you, and displays them in a quick and easy to use "
22:31:14 <AaronSw> and so do the skunkweb folks when they introduce it
22:31:15 <Morbus> that describes one of the things that an aggregator can do.
22:31:16 <tav> hmz
22:31:17 <Morbus> its in the same sentence. 
22:31:25 <Morbus> its not 6 hops down the node number
22:31:34 <Morbus> oh, they do? sorry. didnt' see that.
22:31:58 <Morbus> ah. yeah, they do.
22:32:00 <Morbus> mmhmm.
22:33:40 <Morbus> well, they do on a different page, but not on the editing message catalog page.
22:33:55 <Morbus> the aggregator corrollary doesn't work here.
22:33:58 <AaronSw> yeah, they do it on the page before editing them
22:34:09 <AaronSw> anyway, that's enough for this subject, i think
22:34:30 <Morbus> i'd have to agree. we disagree. que sera.
22:34:47 <AaronSw> does python still have the global interpreter lock?
22:35:04 <Morbus> what's a global interpreter lock? <G>
22:35:10 <AaronSw> ugh, not again
22:35:15 <Morbus> heh, heh.
22:35:17 <AaronSw> see you can't live without terminology
22:35:38 <Morbus> there are always simpler ways of saying things. 
22:36:28 <AaronSw> but then they'd be harder to understand, by your metric
22:37:18 <Morbus> example?
22:37:22 <Morbus> er, explain, rather.
22:37:27 <AaronSw> never mind
22:38:10 <Morbus> :(
22:38:19 <AaronSw> oh, fine...
22:38:23 <AaronSw> ooh neat -- it has remote components.
22:38:34 <AaronSw> like if we called everything text files, no one would know what we meant.
22:38:46 <AaronSw> or if we made up new shorter and simpler words for everything, everyone would get confused.
22:38:49 <Morbus> how do you figure?
22:38:59 <AaronSw> global interpreter lock is at least understandable.
22:39:03 <Morbus> we call all books, books, but there are certain types of books that contain radically different information.
22:39:04 <AaronSw> glointlk
22:39:06 <AaronSw> isn't
22:39:29 <AaronSw> right, but it's nice to have words that specialize the term book
22:39:32 <AaronSw> like dictionary
22:39:40 <AaronSw> we don't call them word books or word catalogs.
22:40:11 <AaronSw> nice, it even handles sessions
22:40:23 <Morbus> ok. that i'll agree with. i hesitate to suggest that dictionary is a common word, however. i've yet to hear "message catalog" in common conversation.
22:40:43 <AaronSw> well, you know, that's how terms are created.
22:40:54 <AaronSw> they're invented said, someone goes wtf is that, and then it's explained
22:41:03 <deltab> neither is "text file", for that matter
22:41:04 <AaronSw> that's what jargon is all about.
22:41:14 <Morbus> right, but dictionary. you can't really misunderstand what a dictionary is. it has a very distinct meaning.
22:41:20 <Morbus> but a catalog contains tons of possibilities.
22:41:26 <Morbus> is this something i buy from? is it a card catalog?
22:41:33 <AaronSw> how about a message catalog?
22:42:00 <Morbus> same sort of connotation. is this a catalog of messages i can put on a tshirt? can i buy these messages? is there an index? are there pictures?
22:42:06 <deltab> I know someone who has trouble with files and folders, because those words mean the same to her
22:42:08 <Morbus> like i said, i'd be much happier if they didn't use the term catalog.
22:42:15 <AaronSw> ok, thanks for sharing.
22:42:18 <Morbus> message is fine for me - catalog means something totally different to a lot of people.
22:42:23 <AaronSw> i will now shut up about this topic.
22:42:29 <Morbus> am i pissing you off?
22:42:33 <AaronSw> a little
22:42:49 <deltab> Morbus: can you suggest something betteR?
22:43:07 <Morbus> not in two words, no.
22:43:52 <AaronSw> i liked ken's example:
22:43:52 <AaronSw> "hey, Zaphod, can you add error 3 to the file that contains messages that can be translated into any language yet uses a nice structured format"
22:45:05 <Morbus> thats approachable by all members of the development team. even the people who just signed on to sf the other day and want to help out because they've worked in a photo lab for years.
22:45:18 <Morbus> someone shoudln't be discouraged from helping because they have to read 100 pages of text.
22:45:22 <AaronSw> it also induces RSI ;)
22:45:27 <Morbus> heh, heh.
22:50:28 <Morbus> [[[
22:50:29 <Morbus> [17:48] Morbus: o'm getting into a huge argument about usability and phrases with people in the swhack room. 
22:50:29 <Morbus> [17:48] Morbus: its just like me and you concerning design and usability. its fun. 
22:50:29 <Morbus> [17:49] scattergirl: i will therefore stay away.  :D 
22:50:29 <Morbus> [17:49] scattergirl: i like it that you have fun like that thought 
22:50:29 <Morbus> [17:50] Morbus: oh no, its not fun. i'm pissing aaron off. 
22:50:30 <Morbus> [17:50] Morbus: everyone's against me. 
22:50:32 <Morbus> [17:50] Morbus: i'm fighting for what i believe. 
22:50:34 <Morbus> [17:50] scattergirl: you love it when it's that way. 
22:50:36 <Morbus> [17:51] Morbus: i like fighting for what i believe in, yes. knowing that everyone in the room thinks i'm a moron merely empowers me. 
22:50:39 <Morbus> ]]]
22:50:46 <AaronSw> heh heh
22:50:51 <Morbus> :)
22:55:07 <Morbus> heading home. bb in about 20.
22:55:11 <AaronSw> c'ya
22:55:17 <Morbus> Morbus has left #swhack
22:57:10 <AaronSw> --
22:57:12 <AaronSw> <tav> hmz, care to write a quick script for the archives?
22:57:12 <AaronSw> <AaronSw> what do you mean?
22:57:12 <AaronSw> <tav> just an link to the various dates
22:57:12 <AaronSw> <tav> s/an/a
22:57:13 <AaronSw> <AaronSw> yeah, i need to do that.
22:57:13 <AaronSw> <AaronSw> let's see here... edd has this script to do something.
22:57:15 <AaronSw> <tav> just use os.dirlist recursively and render the list?
22:57:17 <AaronSw> <AaronSw> yeah, but i don't have python built into this webserver... i guess i could call out to it but that's sort of icky.
22:57:20 <AaronSw> <AaronSw> ah, edd has stuff to do it
22:57:22 <AaronSw> <AaronSw> hmm, it's weird
22:57:24 <AaronSw> <AaronSw> let's move this to #swhack
22:57:26 <AaronSw> --
22:58:28 <tav> (side note: and please paste this to morbus when he comes back - but, i don't read #esp logs anymore cos of kazz, and likewise don't read #swhack logs anymore cos of morbus)
22:58:54 <sbp> sbp (~sean@m36-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack
22:59:01 <AaronSw> what is it about morbus's behavior that's the problem?
22:59:21 <tav> what he says rather than his behaviour
22:59:36 <sbp> * sbp catches up
22:59:41 <AaronSw> can you be more specific, tav?
22:59:48 <tav> too much noise, not enough signal
23:00:42 <sbp> Argh, I can't get through to blogspace again
23:00:55 <sbp> oops, ignore that
23:01:11 <AaronSw> it's the regexp... give it a little bit
23:01:23 <AaronSw> i need to fix that right away
23:02:25 <tav> i wonder if i have become elitist recently
23:02:48 <AaronSw> i think bit literate is a better way of putting it
23:03:01 <AaronSw> of course bit literacy is probably elitist...
23:05:55 <tav> bit literate seemingly means different things to me and you
23:06:14 <AaronSw> i'm using it in the creative good sense, and i think it's a really bad term
23:06:20 <AaronSw> he uses it to mean ignoring information ;)
23:07:08 <Morbus> Morbus (~Morbus@s125.terminal3.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack
23:07:13 <tav> aha
23:07:20 <tav> here he is ;p
23:07:24 <AaronSw> :)
23:07:34 <tav> AaronSw: delete the logs!
23:07:37 <AaronSw> heh heh
23:08:14 <AaronSw> Morbus, tav has somehting he wants to say to you
23:08:39 <sbp> ugh, Aaron, you're getting like me with your character swapping
23:08:47 <AaronSw> heh
23:09:00 <tav> character swpaping?
23:09:05 <sbp> s/ht/th/
23:09:16 <sbp> oh, heh :-)
23:09:33 <tav> ;p
23:09:44 <tav> Morbus: less noise, more signal please
23:09:45 <sbp> perhaps I just tend to proofread what Aaron writes
23:09:56 <AaronSw> keep it up :)
23:10:07 <AaronSw> much appreciated, since i _never_ do
23:10:23 <sbp> s/i/I/
23:10:39 <sbp> yeah, I don't tend to either
23:11:15 <Morbus> uh oh. i knew it.
23:11:44 <sbp> But then, I suppose there's constructive proofreading (exposing repretetive spelling errors), and there's being pedantic (you mispelled pseudopenetrificatified!)
23:11:56 <sbp> s/repretetive/repetetive/
23:11:57 <AaronSw> reprentive?
23:11:59 <AaronSw> heh
23:12:02 <sbp> :-)
23:12:28 <AaronSw> Morbus, we've voted you off the island. ;)
23:12:38 <Morbus> ok, tav, what kind of signal would you rather me send?
23:13:18 <tav> the less noisy kind
23:13:23 <AaronSw> heh
23:13:35 <Morbus> i thought this was the offtopic room. what is ontopic for you, tav?
23:15:39 <sbp> * sbp puts on "Nashville Skyline"
23:16:03 <AaronSw> would you like a list?
23:16:04 <AaronSw>  - music sbp is playing
23:16:14 <AaronSw>  - mac os x/linux/computer stuff
23:17:24 <AaronSw>  - www stuff
23:17:24 <Morbus> hey, i'm just trying to accomodate. tav's been here longer than me.
23:17:24 <AaronSw>  - thinks i like
23:17:45 <AaronSw> err things
23:17:45 <AaronSw> has he?
23:17:45 <Morbus> tav;'s known the rest of you longer than i have.
23:17:45 <AaronSw> i doubt it
23:17:45 <sbp> I actually don't know who tav is
23:17:45 <AaronSw> perhaps we should rule by nomic
23:17:45 <Morbus> he's the older member of the gang.
23:17:45 <AaronSw> no, you're thinking of deltab
23:17:45 <tav> tansaku is older than dan?
23:18:06 <AaronSw> i think morbus meant older in terms of being in #swhack than in terms of breathing
23:19:15 <tav> Morbus: i hope you don't take offence at my comment, i just expect a certain class of info when i read the backlogs
23:24:01 <tav> ah, ddos bots, yes
23:24:14 <Morbus> why not just steal some of that code, and tweak?
23:24:14 <sbp> pardon?
23:24:18 <tav> although i am not familiar with the latest versions
23:24:30 <Morbus> sbp: basically, you get tons of bots installed on systems.
23:24:37 <Morbus> they all log in to a central chat room.
23:24:47 <Morbus> then, the controller/user/creator jumps into the chatroom with all these bots
23:24:56 <tav> i was quite fascinated with gibson's ranting about the war bots
23:24:58 <Morbus> and says "hey! go attack this one over here" or "go infect this subnet".
23:25:03 <Morbus> yeah, exactly, tav.
23:25:23 <Morbus> rather long, but incredible read.
23:30:22 <Morbus> !skip
23:30:38 <AaronSw> !itunes
23:30:41 <AaronSw> that's noise
23:30:53 <Morbus> * Morbus is currently listening to 'Never Gonna Stop (The Red, Red Kroovy)' on Rob Zombie's album 'Sinister Urge'.
23:31:01 <AaronSw> !skip
23:31:02 <AaronSw> !itunes
23:31:02 <Morbus> !inform
23:31:02 <Morbus> hmmmf.
23:31:03 <sbp> * sbp is playing "Lay Lady Lay", Bob Dylan
23:31:08 <Morbus> trying to get the new snak itunes crap working
23:31:11 <Morbus> * Morbus is currently listening to 'Never Gonna Stop (The Red, Red Kroovy)' on Rob Zombie's album 'Sinister Urge'.
23:31:30 <tav> no /skip feature?
23:32:17 <Morbus> !musical
23:32:34 <AaronSw> UNF?
23:32:42 <sbp> * sbp was wondering that
23:33:59 <Morbus> ahhhh.
23:34:04 <Morbus> musical
23:34:11 <Morbus> inform
23:34:11 <Morbus> hrm.
23:34:27 <tav> http://tav.espians.com/screenshots/desktop_2001_12_15.png
23:34:33 <Morbus> heh. skip and back work.'
23:34:35 <tav> http://tav.espians.com/screenshots/desktop_1_2001_12_20.png
23:34:38 <tav> http://tav.espians.com/screenshots/desktop_2_2001_12_20.png
23:36:04 <Morbus> hrm.
23:36:08 <Morbus> i never see those commands i enter, but nothing happens here.
23:38:52 <kenm> bye now!
23:38:53 <kenm> kenm has quit ("Leaving")
23:39:18 <Morbus> tav, ever tjought of changing the format of your filenames? like desktop20011220a|b|c.jpg
23:39:22 <Morbus> save yourself some chars and give the distinction too
23:40:03 <tav> the spaces are there for a reason... although you have a point about having the name after the date
23:40:06 <sbp> lol! a folder named "hmz". It could only be tacv
23:40:09 <sbp> s/tacv/tav/
23:40:13 <tav> heh
23:40:47 <AaronSw> everything on his hardrive is named hmz
23:40:53 <AaronSw> that's why it takes him so long to find stuff
23:41:28 <sbp> heh, heh
23:41:40 <sbp> logster, grep 1-1 hmz
23:41:49 <logster> I'm logging.  I found 78 answers for 'hmz' (showing 1...1)
23:41:50 <logster> 1) 2001-12-20 23:40:47 <AaronSw> everything on his hardrive is named hmz
23:42:02 <sbp> only 78? Surprising
23:42:10 <AaronSw> hmz, that can't be right
23:43:02 <tav> heh
23:45:11 <Morbus> hmf.
23:47:34 <sbp> * sbp is currently playing "Tangled Up In Blue"
23:50:07 <sbp> Hmm... I wonder if I could log everything that I play, and then export it as RDF? Then I could sync. it with the logs
23:57:17 <sbp> Morbus, you still here? How was Castle Igor?
23:58:13 <sbp> yes... think of slewing, and Jam Jar lids