IRC log of swhack on 2001-12-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:01:07 [kmacleod]

http://wmf.editthispage.com/discuss/msgReader$6674

00:13:01 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw goes to dinner

00:17:54 [sbp]

@ http://ecs.soton.ac.uk/~sdh300/stuffage/bf.net/

00:17:56 [Morbus]

whoo!

00:17:58 [Morbus]

i got something done.

00:18:00 [Morbus]

i rock./

00:18:02 [chumpster]

A: http://ecs.soton.ac.uk/~sdh300/stuffage/bf.net/ from sbp

00:18:34 [sbp]

A:|BrainFuck.Net

00:18:35 [chumpster]

titled item A

00:18:44 [sbp]

A::Q: "Does BrainFuck.Net use the controversial Microsoft Passport system for authentication?"

00:18:45 [chumpster]

commented item A

00:18:58 [sbp]

A::A: "No. The Brainfuck language has only 8 commands, and none of them are related to authenticating remote network users."

00:18:59 [chumpster]

commented item A

00:24:11 [sbp]

A::I await a [http://www.catseye.mb.ca/esoteric/befunge/|Befunge] port...

00:24:13 [chumpster]

commented item A

00:27:09 [Morbus]

Morbus has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)

00:40:28 [AaronSw]

[[[

00:40:30 [AaronSw]

³Hell is also Network Solutions.² I¹ve been trying to deal with some DNS issues for months. I¹ve even faxed them. On their side nothing budges.

00:40:31 [AaronSw]

I will now call them names. They¹re poopy-heads. They¹re dumb-asses. They¹re as stupid as Einstein was smart.

00:40:33 [AaronSw]

Network Solutions compares unfavorably to other modern ills, including the Greenhouse Effect, war, religious fundamentalism, illiteracy, racism, political correctness, Microsoft, and John Ashcroft.

00:40:52 [AaronSw]

]]] - http://inessential.com/2001/12/17.html

00:41:31 [GabeW]

GabeW (~gwachob@12-236-92-153.client.attbi.com) has joined #swhack

00:45:14 [sbp]

wow

00:48:17 [sbp]

from the same page:-

00:48:18 [sbp]

[[[

00:48:18 [sbp]

I’m freaking out. The sky is this novel color—somewhere between green and purple, I don’t know its name—and the gray creatures who live up there have disappeared.

00:48:18 [sbp]

What’s more—this is the unbelievable part—there’s this orb, a big, angry yellow eye, which appears to be the source of all this exaggerated shininess everywhere. I stared at it for a while but it hurt my eyes. It’s definitely not friendly.

00:48:19 [sbp]

What’ll I do? What can I do?

00:48:21 [sbp]

]]]

00:55:01 [kmacleod]

* kmacleod goes home

00:55:03 [kmacleod]

kmacleod has quit ("Leaving")

00:59:31 [GabeW]

* GabeW is home

01:02:40 [AaronSw]

Does anyone know if somebody's running a less-annoying, more automated version of the Spam Cop software?

01:05:33 [AaronSw]

like a client side spamcop

01:09:21 [AaronSw]

Wow: http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,49091,00.html

01:16:27 [AaronSw]

@ http://www.farces.com/stories/storyReader$230

01:16:30 [chumpster]

B: ARTS & FARCES internet : Is spam killing email? from AaronSw

01:18:11 [AaronSw]

B::Perhaps it's just me, but it seems like concerns about spam are spiling recently. There's this article, plus comments from [Dave|http://scriptingnews.userland.com/backissues/2001/12/15#lb06bd5ce752a185768079778e3cd2000], [Wes|http://wmf.editthispage.com/discuss/msgReader$6651], [Cam|http://camworld.com/journal/2001/12/#16], etc.

01:18:13 [chumpster]

commented item B

01:18:41 [AaronSw]

B::I'm hopeful that technologies like the Plex will help with these problems. In the Plex, you'll likely only accept email from folks whoare

01:18:42 [chumpster]

commented item B

01:19:05 [AaronSw]

B::part of your trust network. Even then, if it's a mass mailing it'll be correlated with others opinions of its importance.

01:19:07 [chumpster]

commented item B

01:20:17 [AaronSw]

B::Personally, I've redirected all messages from emailing lists to a folder which I really never read anymore. Spam was never much a problem with me, I deleted it all quickly, but it does seem to be getting worse. I report all spams to [Vipul's Razor|http://razor.sourceforge.net/] with an Entourage Plug-in I wrote.

01:20:18 [chumpster]

commented item B

01:27:20 [AaronSw]

B::I've also had my email blocked by HP recently, due to some vicious filters there. They didn't like the fact that my account name was only two characters long ('me'). Sheesh.

01:27:21 [chumpster]

commented item B

01:27:31 [AaronSw]

B::Of course they quickly fixed it.

01:27:32 [chumpster]

commented item B

01:32:24 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw tries to plan out his server configurations.

01:32:44 [AaronSw]

If anyone wants to send me a nice high-performance server, or configure my boxen to be one, let me know.

01:34:24 [sbp]

sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m37-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com)))

01:34:33 [AaronSw]

Can anyone recommend cheap, high-quality server hardware? deltab?

01:34:37 [sbp]

sbp (~sean@m37-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack

01:34:51 [AaronSw]

GabeW?

01:35:10 [deltab]

nope

01:35:42 [AaronSw]

Would it make sense to buy one of the cheap $500 PCs or something?

01:49:11 [GabeW]

hhuh?

01:49:30 [GabeW]

sorry - wandered off

01:49:40 [GabeW]

I've used emachines - but beware that they are shit ;-)

01:49:58 [GabeW]

power supplies die and hard drives too

01:50:04 [AaronSw]

Ouch.

01:50:11 [GabeW]

I used to like VA linux boxes - slight premium there

01:50:15 [AaronSw]

I was thinking Powerspec. I've used them before and they're pretty reliable.

01:50:25 [AaronSw]

Yeah, but I don't think there are many VAs left.

01:50:33 [GabeW]

i assume we're talking about intel/linux servers here

01:50:35 [AaronSw]

I'm looking for something I can throw in the server room and forget.

01:50:38 [AaronSw]

Yeah.

01:51:03 [GabeW]

i've had success (second hand recommendation too) from a guy who builds machines up in San Fran...

01:51:20 [GabeW]

you looking for a serious server? or just a "regular" machine to act as a server?

01:51:31 [AaronSw]

More of a regular machine I guess.

01:51:32 [GabeW]

I mean -- dya want rack mounted, raid, dual power supply, etc?

01:51:39 [GabeW]

oh - thats easier then

01:51:48 [AaronSw]

I want a box that'll reliably handle my email and small websites.

01:51:56 [GabeW]

hmm

01:52:05 [AaronSw]

but all the boxes I've gotten to do that fail mysteriously every two weeks.

01:52:28 [GabeW]

sometimes building your own out of relatively good components can be your best bet for cheapness and somewhat good reliability

01:53:38 [AaronSw]

I dunno, maybe I have bad luck at that or something...

01:53:47 [GabeW]

you have to get the right components, thats for sure.

01:53:51 [GabeW]

hmm

01:54:27 [AaronSw]

Like my server's been up 11 days, while the server set up by friends has been up 195 days.

01:54:47 [GabeW]

why do these machines go down? hardware or software problems?

01:55:04 [AaronSw]

a little of both.

01:55:11 [AaronSw]

mostly it runs out of memory, it seems

01:55:14 [GabeW]

hmm

01:55:15 [AaronSw]

even though I keep buying it more RAM.

01:55:20 [GabeW]

how much ram?

01:55:30 [AaronSw]

i think they have like 512MB now.

01:55:33 [GabeW]

these days, I wouldn't run with less than 512Mb

01:55:43 [AaronSw]

Hmm.

01:55:46 [GabeW]

ram is getting *very* cheap - but don't buy ram that is too cheap

01:55:50 [AaronSw]

yeah.

01:56:07 [GabeW]

the trick is to get 1) good mobo 2) good fan/case 3) good ram and 4) good hd

01:56:26 [AaronSw]

hmm

01:56:50 [GabeW]

cooling helps a lot -- also UPS can aid in uptime obviously - some brownouts you may not even notice can reset (or shutdown) machiens.

01:57:17 [GabeW]

http://www.tomshardware.com if you wanna do it yourself

01:57:23 [GabeW]

its a must read

01:57:28 [AaronSw]

yeah, i notice that my x86s go down with brownouts but not the Macs

01:58:05 [GabeW]

its all about the quality of the power supply I would imagine and the amount of power the machine draws

01:58:18 [AaronSw]

Yeah.

01:58:44 [GabeW]

So, these days, I wouldn't bother with SCSI unless you really think you need a really fast drive for stuff like database

01:58:50 [GabeW]

just get a fast ide drive

01:58:59 [GabeW]

much better performance/$

01:59:29 [AaronSw]

yep

01:59:42 [GabeW]

In some ways, servers can be relatively boring machines compared to the latest and greatest desktop machines

02:00:16 [AaronSw]

I look at machines like: powerspec.com/systems/system_specs.phtml?selection=5780 and think a) will that work for me and b) can i get it for cheaper without sound, graphics and windows

02:00:21 [GabeW]

depends on what you are doing, but unless you have pretty extreme scaling requirements, or intense processing behind your sites, you can get a pretty lame machine

02:00:37 [GabeW]

and it won't be noticeably slower as viewed across the network

02:01:38 [GabeW]

the celerons made good mail/simple web servers usually

02:02:11 [GabeW]

The drive seems a tad bit small - but the price is awfully good

02:02:32 [GabeW]

actually, i think you can put this system together by yourself for a little less... but not a whole lot

02:02:48 [AaronSw]

Yeah, i'm not sure it's worth the money.

02:02:52 [AaronSw]

.acronym .acronym btco

02:02:53 [xena]

.acronym: A Clever Re-Organisation Nudges Your Memory :-), A Completely Random Order Never Yields Meaning :-), A Concise Recollection of Nomenclature Yielding Mnemonics :-), A Concise Reduction Obliquely Naming Your Meaning:-), A Contrived Reduction Of Nomenclature Yielding Mnemonics :-), A Crazy Reminder Of Names You Misplaced :-), A Cross Reference Of Notes Yielding Messages :-), A Cryptic

02:02:53 [AaronSw]

.acronym btco

02:02:54 [xena]

Reminder Of Names You Meet :-), Abbreviated Code Rarely Or Never Yielding Meaning :-), Abbreviated Coded Rendition Of Name Yielding Meaning :-), Abbreviation By Cropping Names That Yield Meaning :-), Academy's Choice Reading, One Newspaper for You and Me (Newspaper of IMSA), Alphabetic Collocation Reducing Or Numbing Your Memory :-), Alphabetically Coded Reminder of Names You Misremember :-),

02:02:54 [GabeW]

The thing is that cheap desktops don't always make good "always on" servers

02:02:55 [xena]

.. a very large amount of text.

02:02:55 [xena]

btco: Boston Terminal Company

02:03:15 [GabeW]

you should hop over to #linux-help and ask there

02:04:04 [GabeW]

also, let me ask a guy i know woh might have a better idea

02:05:14 [AaronSw]

<GabeW> The thing is that cheap desktops don't always make good "always on" servers

02:05:15 [AaronSw]

yeah, that's what I'm worried about.

02:05:15 [AaronSw]

I'm always wary of linux-help channels...

02:05:41 [AaronSw]

cool

02:06:03 [GabeW]

i got spoiled for a while working at a company that had enough money to but real servers from VA

02:06:28 [GabeW]

there are some features that make "real servers" nice (rack mounting, easy access to hardware inside, good venting, etc)

02:06:37 [AaronSw]

Mmmm.

02:06:49 [GabeW]

have you checked on the various linux sites like linux.com or lwn.net (I don't keep up)

02:06:55 [AaronSw]

A little.

02:07:04 [AaronSw]

Yeah, it makes me wonder whether servers have some magical quality that make them reliable or if I'm just incapable at configuring them properly.

02:07:06 [GabeW]

is this going to be "remotely" installed or is it going to sit in a basement or somesuch?

02:07:19 [GabeW]

well, servers are built from higher quality (and more expensive) components usually

02:07:29 [AaronSw]

It's going into a server room with a ds3 or some such that's a short drive from here.

02:07:40 [GabeW]

often better drives and almost always better power supplies

02:07:45 [GabeW]

better cooling too

02:08:13 [GabeW]

and the mobos tend to be better focused on being a server (ie no sound, often no USB, etc)

02:08:41 [AaronSw]

I'm really sick of "Oops, the server's down again -- better get it up before mail starts bouncing" and "argh, why did sshd crash _this_ time."

02:08:51 [GabeW]

is it properly ventilated there? humidity and heat can really kill hardware

02:09:01 [AaronSw]

Yeah, it's a real server room, so it should be ok...

02:09:04 [GabeW]

otoh, an improperly setup linux box can be very difficult to keep up ;-)

02:09:23 [AaronSw]

improperly set up software-wise?

02:09:25 [GabeW]

I've had good luck with Redhat default installs (with basic reconfiuration for security purposes)

02:09:36 [AaronSw]

Hmm, that's basically what I've been using.

02:09:50 [AaronSw]

Although I was thinking of going with Debian for my next machine.

02:09:51 [GabeW]

its relatively easy to make a linux box useless through out of control cron jobs, etc

02:10:17 [AaronSw]

Heh, yeah. That was true about one machine I was using... it had tripwire running every hour for a while.

02:10:17 [GabeW]

i've also had problems with cheap hard drives and linux

02:10:23 [GabeW]

heh

02:10:40 [GabeW]

for some reason, linux can run harddrives a lot harder than 'doze

02:11:52 [GabeW]

* GabeW thinks about all the time he's spent diagnosing dead or dying linux boxes

02:12:20 [GabeW]

I'd say 75% of the time, its been a hardware problem

02:12:41 [AaronSw]

Interesting.

02:14:05 [GabeW]

yeah, and 24% of the time, its some app trying to allocate 500 gig of ram

02:14:34 [GabeW]

and 1% of the time its some kernel or misconfiguration issue

02:14:41 [AaronSw]

Hmm.

02:15:10 [GabeW]

oh and one time I think it was some DoS or r00t-0wn3D thing

02:15:20 [AaronSw]

heh

02:17:23 [AaronSw]

folks in #linuxhelp say: "dream on :) it isnt realistic"

02:17:38 [GabeW]

what isn't realistic?

02:17:59 [AaronSw]

finding a cheap, reliable machine

02:18:06 [GabeW]

yeah, its a crapshoot

02:18:31 [GabeW]

thats why I'm saying dyi might be best

02:18:39 [GabeW]

the thing is that not everything needs to be new

02:18:53 [AaronSw]

Yeah, i've not had the best DIY experiences in the past...

02:18:57 [GabeW]

you can use an older case (new power supply though), perhaps even an old mobo and cpu

02:19:16 [AaronSw]

Hmm, he's recommending a sunblade which looks cool except it runs solaris.

02:19:40 [GabeW]

the other option (and this is the one that makes me all excited) is to build a pair of cheap redudant (or failover) machines

02:20:07 [GabeW]

then you can even use shitty hardware

02:20:07 [AaronSw]

That's sort of cool, but sounds tricky.

02:20:17 [GabeW]

well, it depends on how much you want to do

02:20:41 [GabeW]

if you are worried about mail receipt - you can setup one as a backup smtp receiving server

02:20:53 [GabeW]

web serving is a little harder

02:21:02 [AaronSw]

Yeah, mail receipt is easy.

02:21:10 [GabeW]

depends on how long a downtime you are willing to accept

02:21:30 [AaronSw]

i'm just sick of going and debugging machines in my spare time.

02:21:32 [GabeW]

you can "rsync" content over to a backup server on a regular basis and then if the primary goes down, you can manually switch over to the backup really easy

02:21:48 [GabeW]

or you can do something more fancy and have the backup come up automatically

02:21:58 [GabeW]

but the manual failover stuff is *really* easy

02:22:30 [AaronSw]

what do I do, just change the DNS?

02:22:32 [GabeW]

but you do point a truism out - it actually does take effort to keep systems up and running reliabily

02:22:48 [GabeW]

you could change the dns or change the ip of the backup machine or .. or ..

02:22:52 [AaronSw]

yeah, maybe i should just hire a sysadmin :)

02:23:07 [GabeW]

thats why most people don't run their own servers

02:23:26 [GabeW]

what sort of sites are you running there?

02:23:52 [AaronSw]

I was thinking this machine would just run low-traffic simple sites like my homepage, the weblog and stuff.

02:26:02 [AaronSw]

wow, IBM has a server for $650

02:26:04 [GabeW]

and you are getting free hosting?

02:26:07 [AaronSw]

yep

02:26:12 [GabeW]

thats nice

02:26:35 [AaronSw]

which? the hosting or the server?

02:26:39 [GabeW]

if I was in yer position (you aren't me and vice versa) i'd do the two-cheap servers

02:26:43 [GabeW]

the free hosting

02:26:48 [AaronSw]

yeah, it really is

02:27:19 [GabeW]

I keep on meaning to get a couple server colocated and paid for by my business and then dedicating one to hosting for people I know

02:27:32 [GabeW]

but we're not there yet

02:27:35 [AaronSw]

that'd be cool

02:28:01 [GabeW]

I mean, the incremental cost of a new server would be very little and assuming they don't abuse it, it costs me very little

02:28:28 [GabeW]

pair.com will host static sites for very little - something like $10 a month - i use them

02:28:45 [AaronSw]

ooh, neat. I know a lot of people use them, but i had no idea it was that cheap

02:28:50 [deltab]

blazingfast.net too :-)

02:28:50 [GabeW]

yeah

02:28:54 [GabeW]

its scary cheap

02:29:05 [GabeW]

i have about 5 people who I've gotten to sign up with them

02:29:10 [GabeW]

my business too!

02:30:20 [GabeW]

they have an ftp-access-only account that you can attach a domain (or more) to, and I have my mom using it to get mail for her domain

02:30:35 [GabeW]

its like $8.95 a month or something -- she doesn't have a web site but she could as well

02:34:34 [AaronSw]

maybe wmf can even get me a discount on this IBM server...

02:35:58 [GabeW]

hehe

02:36:08 [GabeW]

hey, put a project on it and maybe it can be donated

02:36:51 [GabeW]

put webns.net on it and try to get a donation from someone

02:37:10 [AaronSw]

heh heh

02:37:40 [AaronSw]

maybe i can make spin it as a donation to our nation's schools

02:37:41 [GabeW]

is anyone else going to use this server or is this all for personal stuff?

02:38:12 [AaronSw]

well, it'll probably host email and websites for the rest of the family, but mainly it's just me and my projects

02:38:32 [GabeW]

where are they hosted these days?

02:39:13 [AaronSw]

i have two small really old servers on a dsl line hosting theinfo.org and swartzfam.com respectively

02:39:34 [AaronSw]

then i have a server with the kind folks at museatech which hosts pretty much everything else.

02:39:52 [AaronSw]

I also have some stuff with the kind folks at blazingfast.net.

02:40:26 [deltab]

* deltab bows

02:40:30 [GabeW]

man - you have lots of kind folks around you

02:40:43 [AaronSw]

heh

02:40:53 [GabeW]

i wanna run an isp and a hosting company that Does Things Right

02:40:56 [AaronSw]

It's always worthwhile being nice to people.

02:41:26 [AaronSw]

I used to have my own server with the once-kind folks at ArsDigita, but then they became mean evil people and turned it off without telling me.

02:41:55 [AaronSw]

I called up the hosting company and I was like, hey, why's my server down. and they were like, oh, they told us to turn it off.

02:42:00 [GabeW]

I don't entirely trust the magnanamity of people, especially with this economic climate

02:42:18 [AaronSw]

Yeah, same here...

02:42:26 [AaronSw]

which is one of the reasons I want a server of my very own.

02:42:30 [GabeW]

yup

02:42:58 [GabeW]

thats why its nice to be able to pay for things, even if its only a few bucks a month - gives the other party a sense of responsibility

02:43:33 [AaronSw]

exactly

02:44:09 [deltab]

blazingfast.net would be happy to take AaronSw's money :-)

02:44:30 [AaronSw]

just because i agree doesn't mean i'm going to do it. :-)

02:45:03 [AaronSw]

ok, dell's site sucks: i find the machine i want, i click "ready to buy" and it dumps me at the front page of their store web site

02:57:42 [GabeW]

anyway, AaronSw - if you can afford a Dell I really have had excellent history with their hardware both as servers and desktops

02:58:04 [AaronSw]

I can't figure out to buy anything on their site!

02:58:13 [GabeW]

hehehe

02:58:17 [GabeW]

hmm - didn't used to be that hard

02:58:27 [AaronSw]

i find the machine i want, i click "ready to buy" and it dumps me at the front page of their store web site

02:58:33 [AaronSw]

which has no links to servers

02:59:15 [GabeW]

http://www.dell.com/us/en/bsd/products/model_pedge_pedge_500sc.htm

02:59:17 [GabeW]

dude

02:59:35 [GabeW]

from $499

02:59:39 [AaronSw]

whoa, cool

03:00:06 [GabeW]

needs more ram and bigger hd - I'd get those from Dell

03:01:09 [GabeW]

599 with what you need

03:01:16 [GabeW]

damn, thats cheap

03:01:33 [GabeW]

its a "server" machine which means you *should* be getting good reliability

03:01:52 [AaronSw]

Where's this $599 machine?

03:02:06 [GabeW]

can I email you a shopping cart?

03:02:20 [AaronSw]

ah, here it is

03:02:26 [GabeW]

/msg me your email addr

03:03:21 [GabeW]

ok

03:04:28 [AaronSw]

OK, I have one item in my shopping cart. I click detailed view and i have no items in my active cart.

03:04:38 [GabeW]

its another $100 for a 1ghz p3 instead of a 900 mhz celeron

03:04:50 [GabeW]

yeah, move it to your active cart and then you can edit it

03:04:53 [AaronSw]

aha

03:05:05 [GabeW]

wierd ui

03:05:22 [AaronSw]

when they say on-site labor, will they actually come find my server and fix it?

03:05:39 [GabeW]

yeah

03:05:56 [GabeW]

they actually came out to my apartment way out in the extreme burbs to replace a power supply

03:06:03 [sbp]

Aaron's email address is, and always will be, DONTSPAMME@NOSPAM.COM

03:06:09 [AaronSw]

wow, that's pretty incredible.

03:06:11 [GabeW]

you konw they are talking about this topic in infoanarchy

03:06:25 [GabeW]

cheap linux boxen

03:06:35 [AaronSw]

i see

03:06:41 [AaronSw]

i think i started that thread...

03:06:53 [GabeW]

ahh

03:08:04 [GabeW]

loki is talking about building a machine that will have your reliability problems I think

03:08:43 [AaronSw]

that will be unreliable, you mean?

03:08:55 [GabeW]

yeah - but then again, I haven't priced this stuff recently

03:09:44 [AaronSw]

hmm, why are there two identical looking 1GB RAM options, one of which costs $102 and the other costs $794

03:09:46 [AaronSw]

bbiab

03:11:29 [sbp]

one was probably posted ten minutes before the other

03:12:33 [GabeW]

cuz they mean 2x512Mb not 4x256 I'm sure

03:12:37 [GabeW]

thats not worth it

03:12:59 [GabeW]

its got 4 slots and the option I have selected for you fills them all with 128Mb simms

03:13:07 [GabeW]

dimms rather

03:13:39 [sbp]

* sbp runs CWM, goes to get food

03:13:51 [GabeW]

they're giving you 4 128Mb dimms as a cheapest option and thats fine for a while - when the bigger dimms come down in price you can always mix and match I think

03:14:25 [sbp]

* sbp returns, CWM still running...

03:16:12 [sbp]

heh, then it doesn't work, so you change something, and start it off again...

03:16:19 [AaronSw]

they both claim to be 4x256MB dimms

03:16:27 [AaronSw]

sbp, sounds like punched cards all over again

03:16:41 [sbp]

heh, heh

03:17:19 [AaronSw]

well this server looks really good.

03:17:50 [AaronSw]

many thanks for your help, GabeW

03:17:53 [GabeW]

sure

03:18:19 [AaronSw]

i suspect we will meet again when it comes time to configure it

03:18:34 [GabeW]

so, one thing most people don't hink about is firewalling

03:18:46 [AaronSw]

i don't think about firewalling

03:18:54 [GabeW]

I'd never put up a server without firewalling - preferably in a separate box

03:19:03 [AaronSw]

really?

03:19:04 [GabeW]

at least use linux firewalling ...

03:19:15 [GabeW]

yeah, you are asking for trouble if you don't

03:19:25 [GabeW]

Its actually not that hard

03:19:25 [AaronSw]

of what sort?

03:19:38 [GabeW]

well, are you familiar with firewalling in general?

03:19:52 [AaronSw]

i believe so, unless the term's meaning has changed

03:19:58 [GabeW]

hehe

03:20:21 [AaronSw]

the only problem's i've had was that one machine was infected with Ramen because I forgot to turn off the stupid redhat default services

03:20:22 [GabeW]

Well, the mechanism for doing firewalling in linux keeps on changing - ip-fw ipchains ip-filter, etc

03:20:50 [GabeW]

yeah, turning off services is always the best thing to do - its a 80/20 solution - 80% of the benefit with 20% of the work

03:21:09 [GabeW]

there are some good faq's on firewalling (HOWTOs I believe)

03:21:26 [GabeW]

also, I think redhat actually has a configurator for firewalling (I forget - maybe its suse I'mt hinking of)

03:22:45 [AaronSw]

i was sort of thinking of installing debian on it. is that a stupid move for someone like me?

03:24:26 [GabeW]

http://www.linuxdoc.org/HOWTO/Security-Quickstart-Redhat-HOWTO/index.html

03:24:52 [GabeW]

um, I'm not a debian head

03:24:59 [GabeW]

and I kinda like the familiarity of redhat

03:25:06 [GabeW]

its sort of a personal preference

03:25:07 [AaronSw]

yeah, but most people I know are debian heads, it seems... ;)

03:25:22 [AaronSw]

i certainly have enjoyed using the debian package manager on my Mac

03:25:39 [GabeW]

well, debian is probably fine

03:26:04 [GabeW]

i like the fact that redhat is very widely used and questions are easy to get answered

03:26:09 [AaronSw]

How can you go wrong with an OS that names its releases after Toy Story characters?

03:26:28 [GabeW]

in that case http://www.linuxdoc.org/HOWTO/Security-Quickstart-HOWTO/index.html

03:26:45 [AaronSw]

Heh.

03:26:56 [GabeW]

Was that because Bruce Perens worked at Pixar?

03:27:07 [AaronSw]

Hmm, I hadn't thought of that.

03:27:24 [GabeW]

I think thats probably the connection ;-)

03:27:36 [GabeW]

we'll have to see when that name theme started

03:27:55 [GabeW]

I haven't spoken to bruce since he went big time and started at HP

03:28:27 [AaronSw]

Do you know what happened to technocrat.net?

03:29:11 [GabeW]

yeah

03:29:13 [GabeW]

he shut it down

03:29:16 [GabeW]

i was an editor

03:29:25 [GabeW]

it was kind of dying on the vine

03:29:29 [AaronSw]

yeah, i know -- but why'd the archives disappear?

03:29:31 [GabeW]

he got involved in linuxvc also

03:29:33 [GabeW]

I donno

03:29:51 [GabeW]

the machine is still there I think - I bet you I still have r00t ;-)

03:30:30 [AaronSw]

Heh.

03:30:56 [GabeW]

actually maybe its a different setup now - donno, don't really wanna know

03:31:00 [AaronSw]

gabew@technocrat$ r00t m3 pl3aze

03:31:24 [GabeW]

he was running it off the dsl into his house in Berkelely

03:31:29 [GabeW]

Berkeley

03:31:39 [AaronSw]

Heh.

03:32:23 [GabeW]

I met him when I asked him to come speak at a class at the law school at Berkeley (Boalt) - that was after I graduated

03:32:45 [GabeW]

* GabeW likes the punk channel on launch.yahoo.com

03:34:09 [sbp]

sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m773-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com)))

03:34:21 [sbp]

sbp (~sean@m773-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack

03:36:16 [sbp]

aaargh, these big queries are just so slow

03:36:55 [GabeW]

sbp needs a faster machine

03:37:07 [GabeW]

can you make cwm multithreaded?

03:37:28 [sbp]

I'm on an 800MHz machine as it is

03:38:16 [sbp]

multithread CWM: heh, heh, heh

03:38:17 [GabeW]

there are 2 ghz machines out now ;-)

03:38:32 [GabeW]

well, once you multithread, the next challenge is to partitoin and distribute

03:38:36 [sbp]

I'll take that as an offer for you to buy me one. Many thanks

03:39:44 [sbp]

* sbp runs yet more stuff through CWM

03:40:21 [sbp]

the problem is that I keep running a 135KB database through it. Perhaps I should just filter out the bits that I need

03:40:43 [AaronSw]

Perhaps CWM should be built atop a real database framework.

03:41:00 [sbp]

Perhaps you're right

03:41:10 [GabeW]

cwm is a inference engine, right?

03:41:24 [sbp]

ah, neat, it's kinda worked...

03:41:41 [sbp]

it's given totally the wrong result

03:41:51 [sbp]

but at least it's given a result this time

03:41:53 [sbp]

yes, it is

03:41:55 [GabeW]

hey, "Distributed Thought" - neat name for a distributed cwm

03:42:06 [sbp]

DT? nah...

03:42:08 [sbp]

:-)

03:42:15 [GabeW]

cwm can't be the first inference engine to run into scaling issues

03:42:23 [GabeW]

have you tried running cwm in jpython?

03:44:05 [sbp]

nope

03:44:07 [AaronSw]

wouldn't that make it slower?

03:44:09 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw ducks

03:44:12 [sbp]

heh, probably

03:44:54 [GabeW]

i wouldn't be so sure

03:45:11 [sbp]

no need to duck, Aaron. Say it loud and say it proud

03:45:12 [GabeW]

it'd be interesting to see it work in a jit enabled jpython encironment

03:46:21 [sbp]

oh wow, CWM just totally screwed something up

03:47:02 [sbp]

oh, no, I just worked out what happened... odd

03:49:29 [GabeW]

* GabeW is watching http://launch.yahoo.com/musicvideos/player/default.asp?videoID=1077293

03:50:13 [GabeW]

groovy anime video

03:50:17 [GabeW]

sorta

03:54:29 [GabeW]

damn, are all the daft punk videos alike?

03:54:31 [sbp]

[[[

03:54:31 [sbp]

"1311.43291953" :distanceBetween [

03:54:32 [sbp]

:townA "MIA";

03:54:32 [sbp]

:townB "BOS" ] .

03:54:33 [sbp]

]]]

03:54:36 [GabeW]

is there some ongoing theme?

03:54:51 [GabeW]

swhack is nonsequitur-central

03:54:53 [sbp]

according to http://usembassymalaysia.org.my/distance.html it's 1500 miles; that's pretty close

03:55:08 [sbp]

* sbp declares victory; hooray!

03:55:17 [AaronSw]

What's MIA?

03:55:22 [GabeW]

miami

03:55:41 [GabeW]

missing in action

03:55:47 [AaronSw]

Heh.

03:55:50 [GabeW]

a girl's name

04:01:49 [sbp]

Miama

04:01:53 [sbp]

er...

04:01:54 [sbp]

Miami

04:02:00 [GabeW]

night all

04:02:03 [sbp]

c'ya

04:02:06 [GabeW]

well, I'm going to get dinner at least

04:02:21 [GabeW]

GabeW has quit ("Client Exiting")

04:05:24 [sbp]

ta da: http://infomesh.net/2001/12/map/

04:11:39 [AaronSw]

neato

04:13:01 [sbp]

cheers

04:36:22 [AaronSw]

Whoa, Knuth works in the Gates Building -- man, i should have visited him when I was there.

04:37:25 [sbp]

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04:44:15 [GabeW]

GabeW (~gwachob@12-236-92-153.client.attbi.com) has joined #swhack

04:50:43 [AaronSw]

AaronSw is now known as Ashcroft

04:51:04 [Ashcroft]

Ashcroft is now known as AaronSw

05:15:24 [GabeW]

GabeW has quit ("Client Exiting")

05:17:27 [AaronSw]

@ http://www.nypl.org/styleguide/xhtml/tips.html

05:17:34 [chumpster]

C: http://www.nypl.org/styleguide/xhtml/tips.html from AaronSw

05:17:46 [AaronSw]

C:|NYPL: Style Guide: XHTML: Authoring Tips

05:17:47 [chumpster]

titled item C

05:17:58 [AaronSw]

C::[Zeldman|http://www.zeldman.com/] is the man!

05:17:59 [chumpster]

commented item C

05:29:01 [GabeW]

GabeW (~gwachob@12.236.92.153) has joined #swhack

05:31:37 [AaronSw]

.seen anubis3

05:31:37 [xena]

anubis3 seen joining #infoanarchy ~ 8 day(s) 1 hr(s) 43 min(s) 34 sec(s) ago

05:49:02 [AaronSw]

I wonder where he is.

05:49:44 [AaronSw]

I hope he's OK...

05:49:55 [GabeW]

ooh - maybe he has a life..

05:50:11 [AaronSw]

heh

05:53:42 [GabeW]

its getting darn cold her

05:53:44 [GabeW]

here

05:53:56 [GabeW]

they are talking about snow in the bay area

05:54:06 [AaronSw]

it's too warm here

05:54:11 [GabeW]

they are even saying its possible it'll get down to 1000 feet

05:54:15 [AaronSw]

things are so messed up that the flowers are coming up

05:54:25 [GabeW]

which is a once-in-a-lifetime thing here

05:54:35 [GabeW]

it snowed in SF when I was a little kid - like 25 years ago

05:54:40 [AaronSw]

heh.

05:54:49 [AaronSw]

another reason not to move to SF ;)

05:55:01 [GabeW]

well, i was supposed to go to tahoe today

05:55:08 [GabeW]

but instead I got work done

05:55:41 [AaronSw]

sounds pretty bad

05:57:08 [AaronSw]

i better sleep -- nite al

05:57:10 [AaronSw]

err all

06:08:24 [GabeW]

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12:03:48 [sbp]

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14:04:57 [sbp]

sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)

14:08:47 [sbp]

sbp (~sean@m53-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack

14:11:16 [sbp]

heh, heh, heh:-

14:11:17 [sbp]

[[[

14:11:18 [sbp]

First of all, let me welcome the new Technical Architecture Group. As I have

14:11:18 [sbp]

understood (arrest me if wrong) this group will work to

14:11:20 [sbp]

[...]

14:11:46 [sbp]

]]] - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2001Dec/0025

14:39:50 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw handcuffs and drags him away

14:41:46 [AaronSw]

Heh, cool -- Janet Daly got her own Slashdot login.

14:41:55 [AaronSw]

I guess she learned her lesson.

14:43:13 [AaronSw]

Slashdot Troll: "The W3C went from a useful to a stubborn to a useless organization. Who has time to wade through ten feet of W3C missives if all a web developer really needs to know is Internet Explorer?"

14:45:18 [AaronSw]

Anonymous Coward: "W3c has been usless so far, why do we want more help from them"

14:45:27 [AaronSw]

I think people sort of misunderstood the purpose.

14:45:53 [sbp]

* sbp notices more text in the channel than before

14:46:43 [AaronSw]

"Considering the background of some of these people, not naming names but I'm sure you can deduce those whom I'm talking about -- can you say ICANN?"

14:46:49 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw posts comments from Slashdot.

14:47:03 [sbp]

yeah, well people tend not to investiage things because they're (ignorant/stupid/Capitalist materialistic bastards [from Stu], dim [from Sean])

14:47:23 [sbp]

Stu is certainly in mega-insult mode today

14:47:23 [AaronSw]

interesting change from / to , there

14:47:47 [sbp]

well, the "," denotes the change in the person suggesting the comments

14:48:23 [AaronSw]

Stu is still there?

14:48:39 [sbp]

Stu: Hi Ya

14:48:53 [AaronSw]

"Apart from perhaps the w3c members themselves, there are no 'independent' members of any kind. No-one, for example, from the EFF or Commercial Linux/BSD vendors (are there commercial BSD vendors?)" - http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=24898&cid=2703993

14:48:58 [AaronSw]

Howdy, Stu

14:49:03 [AaronSw]

.time

14:49:04 [xena]

2001/12/18 14:50:37.734 Universal

14:49:25 [sbp]

yeah, he never left

14:49:42 [sbp]

Stu: I never sleep

14:49:47 [AaronSw]

Heh heh.

14:49:54 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw is still waking up

14:50:20 [sbp]

Stu: you know the feeling???

14:50:53 [AaronSw]

heh, yeah

14:51:06 [AaronSw]

Wow, there are some real Slashdot trolls -- they propose that we should keep the FONT tag.

14:52:12 [AaronSw]

"[Replacing FONT with CSS is] kinda like letting the terrorist win, via creating bigger problems in counter measures. [...] Throwing away the FONT element is going to do nothng more than break all the work that has been created using it and that's alot of history to throw away."

14:52:12 [AaronSw]

- http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&threadm=5218.746T821T13163803threeseas%40earthlink.net&rnum=2&prev=/groups%3Fq%3DW3C%2B%2522Timothy%2BRue%2522%26hl%3Den%26rnum%3D2%26selm%3D5218.746T821T13163803threeseas%2540earthlink.net

14:52:37 [AaronSw]

One reply: "Or maybe, like me, they'll collapse on the floor in uncontrollable fits of hysterical laughter."

14:52:51 [sbp]

Stuart eats trolls for breakfast

14:53:05 [AaronSw]

Heh: "Let's hope they never have to conform to the standards - by having an end-TAG."

14:56:11 [AaronSw]

One person says that having a Mailing List makes it stupid and they should use NNTP Newsgroups like real people.

14:56:54 [AaronSw]

Wow, David Orchard is posting.

15:02:34 [xena]

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15:03:16 [xena]

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15:28:49 [kmacleod]

kmacleod (~ken@kmacleod.static.iaxs.net) has joined #swhack

15:29:09 [AaronSw]

hi ken

15:29:21 [kmacleod]

hey

15:29:25 [kmacleod]

new message: http://wmf.editthispage.com/discuss/msgReader$6689

15:33:25 [AaronSw]

tx

15:35:34 [sbp]

sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)

15:36:55 [kmacleod]

ah, otoh, you get email-notified!

15:37:52 [AaronSw]

yeah, but i send all those to the "never read" folder ;)

16:27:34 [AaronSw]

Heh. DanC: "Then, as I began to comprehend SGML with all its warts, (who's idea was it to attach the significance of a newline character to the phase of the moon anyway?)"

16:27:38 [AaronSw]

- http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html-spec/html-essay

16:29:09 [AaronSw]

Interesting: "As I recall, [Tim] said that all that extra markup was a waste. On the one hand, I agree with him -- the purpose of a language is to be able to express common idioms succinctly, and SGML/HyTime are poor in that respect. On the other hand, once you've chosen SGML, you might as do as the Romans do."

16:29:13 [AaronSw]

- ibid.

16:29:25 [AaronSw]

That's the reason I don't like XLink... guess we are reinventing SGML.

16:34:57 [kmacleod]

hmm. that doesn't follow...

16:36:12 [kmacleod]

* kmacleod wonders if he will always be contrary to whatever Aaron says. quick, let's agree on something!

16:36:25 [AaronSw]

Heh heh. Orchard is good!

16:36:57 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw wonders how to get the scroll bar arrows on both sides in mac os x...

16:38:12 [kmacleod]

do you know if it's possible, or are you wishing it were possible?

16:38:28 [AaronSw]

i'm hoping... it worked on OS 9

16:38:52 [AaronSw]

Ah, it is possible: http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20010927011840284

16:39:08 [AaronSw]

All good os X features are in the code, there's just no UI for them.

16:39:45 [AaronSw]

defaults write "Apple Global Domain" AppleScrollBarVariant DoubleBoth

16:41:35 [kmacleod]

heh. yup, lots of easter eggs there

16:42:12 [kmacleod]

I don't recall if you can still set the default to get the original NeXT look, or the Windows look

16:42:40 [kmacleod]

at one point you still could, but since it wasn't being maintained there were tons of glitches

16:42:58 [AaronSw]

wow, cool

17:10:45 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw goes for a bike ride

17:11:35 [sbp]

sbp (~sean@m308-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack

17:12:36 [AaronSw]

wb

17:12:53 [sbp]

ty

17:13:17 [AaronSw]

np

17:13:52 [AaronSw]

sfs sure takes a while to compile

17:14:43 [AaronSw]

c'ya, bike ride time

17:15:43 [sbp]

c'ya

17:16:06 [tav]

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17:16:50 [tav]

tav (~tav@host217-34-83-190.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #swhack

17:19:15 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw disconnects

17:19:47 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw reconnects

17:23:11 [kmacleod]

heh, SpamMotel uses the "multiple mailbox" technique for tracking address sellers. sad thing is, I have *never* received a spam on one of my email addresses I've handed out ;)

17:38:34 [tav]

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17:49:35 [tav]

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18:02:00 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw disconnects

18:02:20 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw reconnects

18:06:38 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw disconnects

18:07:45 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw reconnects

18:11:36 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw disconnects

18:12:34 [tav]

tav has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)

18:12:38 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw reconnects

18:13:40 [AaronSw]

i hate attbi

18:17:07 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw disconnects

18:19:53 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw reconnects

18:21:30 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw disconnects

18:22:44 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw reconnects

18:26:36 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw disconnects

18:27:43 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw reconnects

18:28:04 [AaronSw]

AaronSw has quit (Remote closed the connection)

18:28:48 [AaronSw]

AaronSw (aaronsw@mewtwo.espnow.com) has joined #swhack

18:30:20 [AaronSw]

sbp, when'd you get here?

18:30:32 [AaronSw]

oh, you never left.

18:37:24 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw disconnects

18:37:57 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw reconnects

18:47:34 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw disconnects

18:47:58 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw reconnects

18:48:16 [sbp]

oh man, stop it, stop it, stop it! aaaaaaaaargh!

18:48:19 [sbp]

:-)

18:48:30 [AaronSw]

sbp took the words out of my mouth

18:48:38 [sbp]

there must be a way to disable that damn thing, surely?

18:49:00 [AaronSw]

the disconnect notice?

18:49:09 [AaronSw]

or my cable modem?

18:49:54 [sbp]

the disconnect notice

18:50:10 [sbp]

or both. Whatever

18:50:17 [AaronSw]

well, would you prefer real disconnect notices?

18:50:40 [sbp]

I'd prefer nothing

18:50:41 [AaronSw]

heh

18:51:19 [sbp]

I mean, your presence is there all of the time. We don't care whether you're connected to it or not... if you're there, we'll go "Aaron, speak!"

18:51:34 [sbp]

er... if we want to know if you're there, that is

18:53:14 [kmacleod]

kmacleod has quit ("Leaving")

18:54:03 [AaronSw]

did it work?

18:54:47 [AaronSw]

oddd, i said:

18:54:48 [AaronSw]

let's see if this works... last time i tried to turn it off it'd just crash

18:54:54 [AaronSw]

heh

18:54:57 [AaronSw]

but you won't know if i'm here

18:55:07 [AaronSw]

but it didn't get into the logs

18:56:01 [sbp]

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19:00:20 [Morbus]

Morbus (~Morbus@morbus.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack

19:00:38 [Morbus]

i... i am very tired.

19:00:45 [AaronSw]

heh

19:04:09 [Morbus]

how are you, my friend?

19:06:00 [AaronSw]

annoyed at my internet provider

19:06:09 [Morbus]

attbi?

19:06:15 [AaronSw]

yeah

19:06:27 [Morbus]

they still throttling?

19:06:39 [AaronSw]

i dunno -- i've never noticed any throttling

19:06:47 [Morbus]

ah. what's going on?

19:07:08 [AaronSw]

packets just stop going thru for a minute or two every 15 minutes or so

19:07:13 [AaronSw]

and i get disconnected from itc

19:07:30 [Morbus]

that's no good

19:07:35 [AaronSw]

it's happened at least 12 times in the past two hours

19:08:16 [rillian]

rillian (~giles@user-24-214-92-87.knology.net) has joined #swhack

19:08:22 [rillian]

hello all

19:08:31 [AaronSw]

hey rillian

19:08:49 [Morbus]

hey rillster.

19:08:53 [Morbus]

the dill pickster.

19:09:10 [Morbus]

i'm tired, rillian. i may make less sense than usual.

19:09:38 [rillian]

well, that's a relief

19:09:46 [rillian]

* rillian pats Morbus onna head

19:10:02 [Morbus]

* Morbus purrs.

19:10:10 [Morbus]

* Morbus realizes he just did a rik imitation.

19:10:12 [AaronSw]

hey Morbus, whump was here yesterday

19:10:21 [Morbus]

i know! i came in in time to see him leave. it sucked.

19:10:50 [rillian]

so I'm in a sunny locale, but the newly-discovered love-of-my-life has a job offer to move to London

19:10:58 [Morbus]

did you know i knew him?

19:11:07 [AaronSw]

you know everyone

19:11:08 [rillian]

(which is no more sunny than vancouver, to be fair)

19:11:09 [AaronSw]

rillian, where?

19:11:26 [rillian]

Huntsville Alabama

19:11:27 [Morbus]

pft. i bet you know more people than me.

19:11:31 [Morbus]

i though em was a chick ;)

19:13:07 [AaronSw]

no, wait, next week

19:13:09 [AaronSw]

arrgh

19:13:21 [Morbus]

heh, heh.

19:13:26 [AaronSw]

<AaronSw> Ooh, neat.

19:13:26 [AaronSw]

<AaronSw> sort of a ways away from Vancouver...

19:13:26 [AaronSw]

<AaronSw> I'm going to London week after next

19:13:29 [Morbus]

so what are ya gonna do rillian?

19:13:29 [AaronSw]

<AaronSw> no, wait, next week

19:13:51 [rillian]

AaronSw: that too, but it's only for the holidays. mom lives here

19:14:03 [AaronSw]

ah

19:14:10 [rillian]

AaronSw: know anything about Queen Mary U of London?

19:14:18 [AaronSw]

i've heard of it...

19:14:18 [rillian]

(or living in the East End?)

19:14:47 [AaronSw]

the brits in here (sbp, deltab, tav) would probably know more than i

19:15:14 [AaronSw]

Queen Mary's website has a UFO on the front -- that looks like a good sign. http://www.qmw.ac.uk/images/picwelcome2.gif

19:15:14 [rillian]

wow, that's quite a concentration

19:15:24 [rillian]

* rillian thought so

19:16:14 [rillian]

otoh, "Female students should never arrange to meet strangers at a property alone." -- from the accomodation website

19:16:21 [AaronSw]

Heh heh.

19:16:44 [rillian]

like you have to take a guy along house hunting? what's with that?

19:17:41 [rillian]

if only they'd offered the job in Cambridge; I understand that's much nicer

19:17:50 [AaronSw]

<AaronSw> Heh heh.

19:17:50 [AaronSw]

<AaronSw> i'll try and let you know how it looks if i can figure out where it is when i'm there

19:17:51 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw suspects his connection has died again

19:17:59 [AaronSw]

Yeah, Cambridge is very cool.

19:18:04 [Morbus]

sucky sucky.

19:18:04 [AaronSw]

Cambridge, MA is cool too.

19:18:16 [Morbus]

i heard concord, NH was nice this time of year.

19:18:18 [AaronSw]

it's really quite annoying disconnecting like this.

19:18:27 [Morbus]

disconcerting, you mean?

19:18:27 [AaronSw]

Morbus, that's not really possible.

19:18:30 [Morbus]

oh. heh. nevermind.

19:18:40 [Morbus]

ignored a word when i read it.

19:18:44 [Morbus]

what do you mean, not possible?

19:18:53 [AaronSw]

well, you're there, aren't you?

19:19:01 [Morbus]

oh. ha. ha. ha.

19:19:05 [AaronSw]

.weather2 concord, nh

19:19:07 [xena]

[ CONCORD, NH ] : Temperature 34° F Windchill 25° F Humidity 87% Dewpoint 30° F Wind NNW at 12 mph Pressure 29.30 in Conditions Overcast Visibility 10 miles Clouds

19:19:19 [AaronSw]

Actually, we're having great weather here.

19:19:19 [Morbus]

what the?

19:19:21 [Morbus]

don't forget the snow!

19:19:28 [Morbus]

its been snowing off and on all day.

19:19:36 [AaronSw]

I went for a bikeride an hour ago, and the flowers are coming up!

19:19:38 [AaronSw]

it's insane

19:20:05 [AaronSw]

poor flowers will be rather surprised when it starts snowing again

19:20:19 [Morbus]

i guess someone was pushing up daisies, eh? heh, heh.

19:20:23 [AaronSw]

well, for the first time this winter, really

19:22:39 [AaronSw]

i'm this close to getting out the modem

19:22:48 [Morbus]

yay!

19:22:49 [AaronSw]

grr

19:22:53 [Morbus]

come down to my level, bitch! <G>

19:22:59 [AaronSw]

heh, you're at work

19:23:06 [Morbus]

oh yeah. well. shuddup ;)

19:26:16 [AaronSw]

Cool: http://www.bricklin.com/segway.htm

19:27:52 [AaronSw]

@ http://www.bricklin.com/segway.htm

19:28:00 [AaronSw]

ugh, another disconnection

19:28:03 [chumpster]

D: http://www.bricklin.com/segway.htm from AaronSw

19:28:16 [AaronSw]

D:|Thoughts about the Segway HT: Why it's not just another scooter

19:28:17 [chumpster]

titled item D

19:28:21 [AaronSw]

D::By Dan Bricklin

19:28:22 [chumpster]

commented item D

19:28:24 [AaronSw]

D::"""Imagine "reprogrammed" and "enhanced" Segways, with the expert rider able to call up different crafted behaviors at the push of a button, with extra accelerometers on their heads, legs, and arms, competing with stunts that would look like they were special effects in Crouching Tiger."""

19:28:26 [chumpster]

commented item D

19:30:51 [AaronSw]

I wonder what Ken thinks of the segway

19:31:01 [AaronSw]

it seems it'd compete favorably with some PRT stuff

19:36:17 [AaronSw]

D::Heh, I like [this comic|http://cagle.slate.msn.com/news/GingertheScooter/Gingergifs/lalo.jpg].

19:36:20 [chumpster]

commented item D

19:39:08 [AaronSw]

Heh: "I bumped into Silicon Valley venture capitalist John Doerr on Monday -- literally, repeatedly and at his own request. Then I ran over his foot."

19:39:11 [AaronSw]

- http://www.siliconvalley.com/docs/opinion/techtest/ml121101.htm

19:40:35 [Morbus]

heh!

19:41:09 [AaronSw]

"I could repeatedly ram John Doerr, and run over his foot, without running any risk of damaging a man whose personal net worth exceeds the collective annual income of my entire neighborhood."

19:41:12 [AaronSw]

- ibid.

19:41:31 [Morbus]

thats a good quote :)

19:44:05 [Morbus]

whoo hoo: http://www.scattergirl.com/scatscan/cam.html

19:46:17 [AaronSw]

lol

19:49:38 [rillian]

.weather hunstville, al

19:49:39 [xena]

no weather stations found for hunstville, al

19:49:50 [AaronSw]

weather2

19:49:57 [AaronSw]

.weather2 hunstville, al

19:49:57 [xena]

no such weather source.

19:50:02 [AaronSw]

hmm?

19:50:13 [rillian]

.weather2 huntsville, al

19:50:13 [xena]

[ HUNTSVILLE, AL ] : Temperature 54° F Humidity 54% Dewpoint 37° F Wind West at 5 mph Pressure 30.00 in Conditions Clear Visibility 10 miles Clouds

19:50:29 [rillian]

xena: can you do that in real units?

19:50:35 [AaronSw]

heh

19:50:38 [rillian]

.weather2 vancouver, bc

19:50:38 [AaronSw]

.f2c

19:50:38 [xena]

usage: f2c <fahrenheit-numerical-temperature>

19:50:39 [xena]

- converts fahrenheit-numerical-temperature into Celcius

19:50:41 [xena]

[ VANCOUVER, BC ] : Temperature N/A° F / -99999° C Humidity N/A% Wind North at N/A mph / -9999.0 km/h Pressure N/A Conditions Unknown Hourly Precipitation Sunrise

19:50:49 [rillian]

nope :)

19:50:58 [AaronSw]

.f2c 59

19:50:59 [xena]

59.0°F = 15.0°C

19:51:17 [AaronSw]

.weather2 vancouver, bc, canada

19:51:19 [xena]

no such weather source.

19:51:33 [rillian]

.weather2 vancouver, canada

19:51:33 [xena]

several weather sources found: Vancouver, Canada | Vancouver, Canada |

19:53:34 [AaronSw]

.weather2 vancouver, canada

19:53:35 [xena]

several weather sources found: Vancouver, Canada | Vancouver, Canada |

19:53:44 [AaronSw]

.weather2 Vancouver, Canada

19:53:47 [xena]

several weather sources found: Vancouver, Canada | Vancouver, Canada |

19:53:49 [AaronSw]

.weather2 Vancouver, Canada |

19:53:50 [xena]

no such weather source.

19:53:53 [AaronSw]

pfft

20:00:33 [rillian]

the weather modules appear not to have help

20:07:53 [Morbus]

how do you get apache to run python stuff?

20:12:57 [AaronSw]

Morbus, mod_snake and mod_python

20:13:28 [Morbus]

does that stuff come built in with os x?

20:13:38 [AaronSw]

i doubt it

20:13:45 [AaronSw]

does mysql?

20:13:48 [Morbus]

have you used them under os x?

20:13:50 [Morbus]

no, mysql doesnt.

20:14:21 [AaronSw]

no, i've not used them

20:14:28 [Morbus]

ok. cool. thanks.

20:14:33 [AaronSw]

sure

20:14:35 [Morbus]

hey, maybe i can wirte an article you'll want to read ;)

20:14:41 [AaronSw]

cool! :)

20:14:46 [Morbus]

:)

20:23:50 [rillian]

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20:25:40 [rillian]

rillian (~giles@user-24-214-92-87.knology.net) has joined #swhack

20:39:00 [deus_x]

deus_x (~deusx@nic-34-c160-7.mw.mediaone.net) has joined #swhack

20:53:34 [Morbus]

oh god.

21:21:03 [sbp]

sbp (~sean@m170-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack

21:24:09 [AaronSw]

sbp

21:24:50 [sbp]

oh no!

21:24:51 [sbp]

"Morbus realizes he just did a rik imitation"

21:25:30 [Morbus]

heh.

21:25:38 [Morbus]

hiya doing sbp. good to see ya.

21:25:51 [sbp]

heh, heh: "poor flowers will be rather surprised when it starts snowing again"

21:25:54 [sbp]

Hi there

21:26:22 [sbp]

just catching up with the flurry of madness that is #swhack

21:27:18 [AaronSw]

There was some pretty impressive turnaround between the new rdf/xml syntax specification and bugfixes in mozilla -- i was impressed.

21:27:44 [AaronSw]

It must have been like an hour.

21:28:05 [AaronSw]

Of course the spec was brought in line to agree with the code.... ;-)

21:28:10 [Morbus]

the 1.1 spec?

21:28:20 [sbp]

Shh!

21:28:33 [sbp]

that's a nice secret they had there once, Aaron

21:28:49 [AaronSw]

secret?

21:29:03 [Morbus]

there?

21:29:17 [sbp]

yeah, when you fiddle specifications so that they match implementations, it's common practice to keep it a bit quietish

21:29:23 [AaronSw]

heh

21:29:36 [AaronSw]

something to be proud of, i say

21:29:51 [Morbus]

anyone got a good permalink paradigm? that's not an image?

21:30:02 [Morbus]

winer uses #, but i dont' wnat to copy him.

21:30:04 [AaronSw]

I added permalinks to the swahck weblog.

21:30:06 [Morbus]

personally, i think # is good.

21:30:11 [Morbus]

lemme check.

21:30:12 [sbp]

"#"?

21:30:22 [AaronSw]

no, he uses a purple #, yours can be blue

21:30:28 [Morbus]

heh. its for gamegrene.

21:30:29 [sbp]

green!

21:30:31 [Morbus]

so green. :)

21:30:33 [Morbus]

yah, thats right :)

21:30:41 [AaronSw]

here's the gif: http://www.scripting.com/images/2001/09/20/sharpPermaLink3.gif

21:30:41 [Morbus]

yeah, i don't want to spell it out, permalink.

21:30:43 [sbp]

:-)

21:30:47 [Morbus]

perhaps @?

21:30:52 [sbp]

^

21:31:01 [Morbus]

whoa, he actually uses a gif for that?

21:31:04 [Morbus]

hah! that's funny.

21:31:04 [AaronSw]

Yeah.

21:31:07 [AaronSw]

Heh.

21:31:08 [sbp]

heh, that's pretty sad

21:31:18 [AaronSw]

I used a < * > thing for my blog once.

21:31:27 [AaronSw]

< would go back and > would go forward, * was a permalink

21:31:37 [Morbus]

well, there'd be no back and forward.

21:31:45 [Morbus]

i'm looking to permalink comments on gamegrene.

21:31:46 [sbp]

I used an image of an asterisk once, but I quickly decided that Winerisms aren't always cool

21:32:01 [Morbus]

the articles already are permalinks (and have matching redirects from three iterations/redesigns ago <G>)

21:32:13 [Morbus]

heh, sbp./

21:32:33 [sbp]

ooh, use: 86ÞþàO$Pbi2

21:33:01 [sbp]

people will be, like "gibberish? oh, it's from Morbus!"

21:33:02 [AaronSw]

< would go back and > would go forward, * was a permalink

21:33:04 [AaronSw]

JD uses http://static.userland.com/images/jdmanilasitescom/anchor2.gif

21:33:15 [sbp]

< would go back and > would go forward, * was a permalink, eh?

21:33:22 [AaronSw]

sorry if i'm repeating myself. i got disconnected again

21:33:32 [sbp]

"sorry if i'm repeating myself. i got disconnected again", eh?

21:33:43 [AaronSw]

sorry if i'm repeating myself. i got disconnected again

21:33:49 [AaronSw]

no apologies for sbp

21:33:49 [sbp]

eh?

21:33:58 [sbp]

I'm unapologizable

21:34:34 [sbp]

er... unapologizatable

21:35:35 [Morbus]

i guess i will just use permalink.

21:35:37 [Morbus]

screw it.

21:39:26 [AaronSw]

Weird: http://www.nytimes.com/ee

21:40:05 [Morbus]

that seems... er... hel.. not so hel... i dunno.

21:41:00 [sbp]

lol!

21:41:02 [sbp]

@ http://www.404.org/dive/manifesto.html

21:41:05 [chumpster]

E: stair diving from sbp

21:41:18 [sbp]

E::"""You may be asking yourself what the point is there to diving or falling intentionally down a flight of stairs. The simple answer is that there is no point, that one throws themselves down a flight of stairs simply to entertain others."""

21:41:19 [chumpster]

commented item E

21:41:24 [Morbus]

oh man!

21:41:54 [Morbus]

damn! no quicktime on this machine.

21:42:52 [AaronSw]

E::man, this page makes me want to jump down the stairs

21:42:53 [chumpster]

commented item E

21:43:01 [Morbus]

i'll film it, sbp.

21:43:33 [sbp]

It is rather compelling, isn't it?

21:43:52 [AaronSw]

the videos don't look so painful

21:44:14 [AaronSw]

altho they do lack sound

21:45:46 [sbp]

I want one, I want one! http://www.rotodesign.com/gallery/japanese/4.html

21:45:55 [sbp]

Little Sushi car toy thing

21:48:40 [rillian]

rillian has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)

21:49:00 [sbp]

heh, this one's great: http://www.rotodesign.com/gallery/japanese/9.html

21:54:01 [sbp]

Gotta run

21:54:50 [Morbus]

cioa

21:57:02 [sbp]

sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)

22:25:55 [kmacleod]

kmacleod (~ken@kmacleod.static.iaxs.net) has joined #swhack

22:26:03 [Morbus]

hey there ken.

22:26:12 [Morbus]

me and AaronSw were just chatting about blackholes <G>

22:26:13 [Morbus]

j/k.

22:30:19 [Morbus]

Morbus has quit ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com)")

22:30:55 [kmacleod]

* kmacleod misses the reference...

22:39:43 [kmacleod]

kmacleod has quit ("Leaving")

22:59:44 [sbp]

sbp (~sean@m9-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack

23:07:59 [Morbus]

Morbus (~Morbus@s92.terminal3.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack

23:17:41 [sbp]

Morbus, can you think of 5 things that I am extremely unlikely to write?

23:21:02 [Morbus]

that you are?

23:21:09 [Morbus]

ok. um "why I love the outside world".

23:21:17 [Morbus]

"my love affair with morbus iff"

23:21:23 [Morbus]

three more, three more.'

23:21:41 [Morbus]

what is this for?

23:22:33 [Morbus]

"why zip disks are the future of portable media"

23:22:43 [Morbus]

"worship the computer and continue to live"

23:22:59 [Morbus]

"why modems should replace cable users"

23:23:04 [Morbus]

ok. that should be it. how'd i do?

23:24:33 [sbp]

* sbp reviews and rates

23:24:58 [Morbus]

* Morbus teeters on the brink of infinite impatience!

23:25:43 [sbp]

not too bad, Morboid. I came up with a few, but they're so awful that I can't type them in the channel (they're meant to be untypable, remember!)

23:25:56 [Morbus]

ahhh.

23:26:08 [Morbus]

i knew i couldn't beat your untypability.

23:32:16 [sbp]

"infinite impatience" is interesting in its idomatic insecurity

23:32:35 [Morbus]

that's an awesome amount of alliteration already!

23:33:05 [sbp]

:-)

23:33:09 [Morbus]

how much support do older browsers have for colors defined in a css?

23:33:18 [Morbus]

all the gamegrene colors are in the xhtml itself, not in the css.

23:33:44 [sbp]

well, before v.3, nothing, I presume

23:33:53 [Morbus]

i only want 3 and up.

23:34:09 [sbp]

they should all support color (I presume - not a difficult thing to program)

23:34:41 [Morbus]

damn. tables don't fit under p's. sigh.

23:38:29 [Morbus]

sigh. i'm so forsaken: http://www.gamegrene.com/game_material/the_rosebaon_part_1.shtml

23:38:42 [Morbus]

that stupid "other articles" box isn't valid.

23:38:43 [Morbus]

poo.

23:44:21 [AaronSw]

Interesting, I got email from a fellow I had lunch with at WWDC, and he says Aaron Hillegass was there. I don't remember that at all.

23:44:38 [AaronSw]

It'd be really cool if it was true tho. Aaron Hillegass seems like a really cool guy.

23:46:11 [AaronSw]

[[[

23:46:13 [AaronSw]

Quote! Quote! Quote!

23:46:13 [AaronSw]

- Person

23:46:13 [AaronSw]

Company

23:46:15 [AaronSw]

]]]

23:46:18 [AaronSw]

- http://www.bignerdranch.com/Resources/

23:47:02 [Morbus]

i smell blood.

23:47:20 [sbp]

you bit into your lip too hard?

23:47:26 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw steps out of Morbus's way

23:47:32 [Morbus]

no, i thik i have a scab on the inside of my nose

23:49:08 [AaronSw]

the reason your other articles box sucks is because you used table and center!

23:49:09 [AaronSw]

ewww.

23:49:38 [sbp]

yeah, well, I wasn't going to mention it...

23:49:46 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw wonders if Morbus is that guy advocating the FONT tag.

23:49:48 [sbp]

your XHTML sucks. Badly

23:50:10 [sbp]

that's all I have to say on the matter, many thanks for your time, etc. :-)

23:50:33 [Morbus]

Morbus has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)

23:50:46 [deus_x]

deus_x has quit ("Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.0.1")

23:50:56 [sbp]

blargh

23:51:08 [AaronSw]

Heh heh.

23:51:19 [sbp]

stay for my insults, why don't ya

23:53:41 [sbp]

how much are MP3 players these days?

23:53:47 [sbp]

not iPod :-)

23:54:55 [sbp]

* sbp tries Amazon

23:55:06 [AaronSw]

Why would you want an MP3 player?

23:55:11 [AaronSw]

There's no point to it.

23:55:31 [sbp]

I didn't say that I wanted one. I asked how much they cost"

23:55:58 [sbp]

s/"/!\/?/

23:56:33 [sbp]

"merely asked"

23:56:51 [sbp]

sounds less insluting that way

23:56:58 [AaronSw]

Heh heh heh: [[[

23:56:59 [AaronSw]

Tomorrow I will get on a plane. I¹ll have my PowerBook with me. On that flight, I can write Cocoa apps, PHP-based websites, Tomcat web applications, AppleScripts or Perl scripts. I can use Project Builder, Emacs, or vi. I¹ll have my choice of MySQL or PostgreSQL to use as a back-end database. I¹ll use Apache as my web server. And it is all free!

23:57:02 [AaronSw]

If I¹m willing to spend a little cash, I can also run Word or Photoshop. I may even watch a DVD on the flight. If there is a Windows or Linux developer on the plane next to me, he will envy me. Eventually, he will buy his own PowerBook. This has everything to do with Darwin and Cocoa. If you have a choice, why would you develop on anything but Mac OS X?

23:57:07 [AaronSw]

]]]

23:57:15 [AaronSw]

Sorry, what did you say? I got disconnected.

23:57:42 [sbp]

you were disconnected? And I didn't get to hear about it?

23:57:50 [AaronSw]

See what you've done!

23:57:51 [sbp]

could it be?

23:57:58 [AaronSw]

Now I have to turn it on again.

23:58:08 [sbp]

nooooo!!!!!!!!!!!

23:58:08 [AaronSw]

I'm disappointing you.

23:58:55 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw pokes sbp in the nose; disconnects

23:59:11 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw pokes sbp in the nose; reconnects

23:59:15 [sbp]

heh, heh. You're going to be doing that a lot when you come visit, aren't you?

23:59:20 [AaronSw]

Sorry, did you say something? I got disconnected?

23:59:26 [AaronSw]

s/d?//

23:59:37 [AaronSw]

err .

23:59:48 [sbp]

you got "disconnecte"?