IRC log of swhack on 2001-12-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:00:50 [sbp]
quiet in here without the M thing
00:01:26 [AaronSw]
Heh.
00:02:00 [AaronSw]
Can't say I mind. It makes me feel productive.
00:02:14 [sbp]
it makes me feel bored
00:02:19 [AaronSw]
It doesn't like <xsl:variable name="tempo" select="substring-before($time, ' ')"/> either.
00:02:33 [sbp]
well, get a better XSLT engine, then
00:02:46 [sbp]
what error message do you get?
00:03:19 [AaronSw]
xmlXPathRunEval: parameter error
00:03:19 [AaronSw]
xmlXPathEval: evaluation failed
00:03:29 [sbp]
$time isn't defined
00:03:44 [deltab]
I was wondering where that was set
00:03:56 [AaronSw]
I'm pretty sure it is. <xsl:value-of select="time" /> works fine.
00:04:12 [AaronSw]
oh, do I need to do a variable thingy?
00:04:21 [sbp]
try it without
00:04:29 [AaronSw]
without what?
00:04:36 [deltab]
doesn't that just insert the value of the element time?
00:04:53 [AaronSw]
Ah, so I need: <xsl:variable name="time" select="time" />
00:04:53 [deltab]
why not just use . instead of $time?
00:05:04 [sbp]
ugh
00:05:06 [deltab]
or time
00:05:16 [AaronSw]
i didn't know i could do that.
00:05:19 [sbp]
it's pretty difficult to debug without seeing the code
00:06:13 [deltab]
AaronSw: what are you matching against?
00:06:39 [AaronSw]
link
00:07:28 [sbp]
can you post the code online?
00:08:57 [AaronSw]
grep for archiveURL
00:09:27 [sbp]
what is "time" meant to be matching?
00:09:36 [AaronSw]
<time value="1008535915.732270">2001-12-16 20:51</time>
00:09:44 [sbp]
aha!
00:10:04 [AaronSw]
what?
00:10:10 [sbp]
so you were trying to replace strings... by passing it an element? Different
00:10:26 [AaronSw]
Well you told me a variable wasn't working...
00:10:30 [sbp]
you have to put the text value of the element by passing it into a variable first
00:10:37 [sbp]
well, the variable isn't set
00:10:53 [deltab]
why? nodesets can be converted into strings
00:11:00 [sbp]
are you sure?
00:11:46 [sbp]
do you have soe sample input we can run it on?
00:11:54 [deltab]
http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath#function-string
00:12:23 [AaronSw]
[url omitted]
00:13:16 [sbp]
funny, it works for me
00:13:48 [AaronSw]
Odd.
00:14:06 [sbp]
ah, perhaps it doesn't
00:14:53 [AaronSw]
oh, hmm, it does sorta work
00:15:01 [AaronSw]
aha!
00:15:13 [deltab]
why omitted?
00:15:20 [AaronSw]
s/{archiveURL}/{$archiveURL}/
00:15:32 [AaronSw]
omitted: dunno...
00:15:48 [AaronSw]
cool. now i just need to fix chumpster to serve the permalinks
00:16:29 [AaronSw]
at least the chump is in Python. phew
00:20:00 [deltab]
AaronSw: try using just time instead of $time
00:20:46 [AaronSw]
cool, still works
00:21:30 [deltab]
then you can drop the $time variable
00:21:54 [sbp]
wow, Alexa just helped me out on three pages in a row
00:22:01 [AaronSw]
yep, done
00:22:09 [sbp]
one had moved to a "pay service", so I just ran it through Alexa :-)
00:22:22 [AaronSw]
heh.
00:25:24 [deltab]
hmm, is "bookmark" an appropriate type for a permalink?
00:25:54 [sbp]
probably not; as I recall, "bookmark" is an entry point
00:26:22 [deltab]
isn't that what a permalink is?
00:26:42 [sbp]
[[[
00:26:43 [sbp]
Bookmark
00:26:43 [sbp]
Refers to a bookmark. A bookmark is a link to a key entry point within an extended document. The title attribute may be used, for example, to label the bookmark. Note that several bookmarks may be defined in each document.
00:26:47 [sbp]
]]] - http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/types#type-links
00:27:12 [sbp]
does it constitute an "extended document"?
00:27:14 [deltab]
exactly
00:27:31 [deltab]
I presume so
00:28:09 [AaronSw]
cross your fingers...
00:28:14 [chumpster]
chumpster has quit (Remote closed the connection)
00:28:28 [sbp]
hooray! chumpster's gone
00:28:39 [AaronSw]
it will be back... maybe
00:34:04 [chumpster]
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00:35:37 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw claims partial victory -- goes home
00:35:43 [AaronSw]
well to eat dinner
00:35:49 [sbp]
heh, heh, heh
00:36:19 [AaronSw]
bbl
00:37:39 [sbp]
Hmm... wouldn't it be cool if you could have a link to some RDF address book data about someone, and just cram it into your email program?
00:37:46 [sbp]
cf. http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Business
00:39:11 [sbp]
Aah, my AB will take text-separated values. I'm sure I could get CWM to do something like that
00:42:33 [sbp]
sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
00:50:05 [sbp]
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00:54:35 [chumpster]
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00:54:52 [AaronSw]
that didn't sounds good
00:57:11 [sbp]
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00:57:31 [sbp]
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00:57:54 [chumpster]
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00:58:25 [AaronSw]
ok, looks like we have permalinks!
01:03:30 [sbp]
good
01:03:44 [sbp]
[[[
01:03:45 [sbp]
Error:
01:03:45 [sbp]
could not connect to "127.0.0.1:82" (opening connection)
01:03:49 [sbp]
]]] - http://blogspace.com/swhack/weblog/
01:03:59 [AaronSw]
i know, i know!
01:04:04 [sbp]
ah, it fixed itself...
01:04:06 [AaronSw]
blame AmphetaDesk
01:04:12 [AaronSw]
yeah, it fixes itself
01:04:22 [sbp]
quick, blog something!
01:04:26 [AaronSw]
@ http://blogspace.com/swhack/weblog/permalink.patch
01:04:28 [chumpster]
A: http://blogspace.com/swhack/weblog/permalink.patch from AaronSw
01:04:46 [AaronSw]
A:|Permalink Patch for Daily Chump
01:04:46 [chumpster]
titled item A
01:05:19 [sbp]
A::By Aaron Swartz himself
01:05:20 [chumpster]
commented item A
01:05:43 [sbp]
great
01:05:49 [AaronSw]
A::Now you can link to things on #swhack, safe in the knowledge that your permalink will stay persistent until the next version of the Daily Chump comes out, or Aaron fiddles with the XSLT again, whichever comes first.
01:05:50 [chumpster]
commented item A
01:06:12 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw emails patch to edd
01:06:18 [sbp]
heh, way to send out "don't link to us!" vibes
01:06:45 [AaronSw]
Heh.
01:07:11 [AaronSw]
.google cool uris don't change
01:07:13 [xena]
cool uris don't change: http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html
01:07:19 [AaronSw]
A::No, but really, link to us! It'll be fun and [cool|http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI].
01:07:20 [chumpster]
commented item A
01:08:06 [sbp]
lol: """Historical note: At the end of the 20th century when this was written, "cool" was an epithet of approval particularly among young, indicating trendiness, quality, or appropriateness."""
01:08:28 [AaronSw]
Heh.
01:08:44 [AaronSw]
Oops, I just realized a bug in my patch
01:08:50 [sbp]
cool
01:09:07 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw delays email to Edd.
01:09:17 [sbp]
Hi Edd, have a bug!
01:10:00 [AaronSw]
Heh. The bug would cause all future archives not to actually work. :-)
01:10:15 [sbp]
to be working actually not?
01:10:15 [AaronSw]
It'd sorta take the perma out of permalink.
01:10:34 [AaronSw]
come as you be, leave as you are.
01:10:40 [sbp]
wouldn't that just nibble your biscuit
01:10:59 [AaronSw]
bbiab, lighting candles
01:11:05 [sbp]
have fun
01:15:30 [AaronSw]
thanks
01:15:37 [AaronSw]
AaronSw has changed the topic to: It doesn't hurt to be alert!
01:16:47 [sbp]
It doesn't help to eat some kelp
01:17:05 [AaronSw]
heh
01:17:48 [AaronSw]
Our mum was warning us of IRA agents and we blew her off and that's what she said.
01:22:06 [chumpster]
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01:30:25 [sbp]
sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m20-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com)))
01:30:33 [SeanP]
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01:33:15 [AaronSw]
Mark Bernstein: "Flash isn't bad, it's just different. Think of it as a distinct affordance -- a tool for doing things you wouldn't do otherwise."
01:37:58 [SeanP]
SeanP is now known as sbp
01:38:16 [sbp]
tsk, I didn't even notice that
01:38:41 [AaronSw]
Bernstein really likes http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735710740/coolbooks02/
01:38:57 [AaronSw]
"This thoughtful survey has evoked far too little discussion; it deserves to be the most widely-discussed book on Web style since Siegel's Killer Web Sites."
01:39:08 [AaronSw]
"The most challenging and thoughtful Web design book of 2001"
01:39:18 [AaronSw]
He could write the back-of-book blurbs all by himself!
01:39:30 [sbp]
is my site reviewed?
01:39:57 [AaronSw]
I think you'd fall into "HTML Minimalism"
01:41:04 [sbp]
it's like, Zen, dude
01:54:12 [AaronSw]
Heh heh heh: http://sfstories.com/index.shtml?32
01:54:16 [AaronSw]
Cute.
02:02:03 [AaronSw]
Nice article on Eastgate: http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/343/business/On_SiteP.shtml
02:02:24 [AaronSw]
"Four or five years ago, there was a sudden burst of enthusiasm for ''push'' technology on the Web, the idea that Internet surfers would rather watch streaming media - mini movies and video segments - than click on links. It was a flop. ''People saw the push stuff and said, `That's really cool, but I've got stuff I have to do. So I'm going to go back to clicking,''' Bernstein said."
02:03:11 [AaronSw]
BLURB:Quickies: Assorted Interesting Links
02:03:34 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw pokes chumpster
02:03:47 [chumpster]
B: Quickies: Assorted Interesting Links from AaronSw
02:04:05 [AaronSw]
B::[Fresh Styles for Web Designers|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735710740/coolbooks02/], Bernstein calls it "The most challenging and thoughtful Web design book of 2001".
02:04:06 [chumpster]
commented item B
02:04:57 [AaronSw]
B::[twenty-five cents and counting|http://sfstories.com/index.shtml?32]: Derek Powazek checks up on how his new book is selling in his home town.
02:04:58 [chumpster]
commented item B
02:05:30 [AaronSw]
B::[Eastgate in the Boston Globe]: "Four or five years ago, there was a sudden burst of enthusiasm for ''push'' technology on the Web, the idea that Internet surfers would rather watch streaming media - mini movies and video segments - than click on links. It was a flop. ''People saw the push stuff and said, `That's really cool, but I've got stuff I have to do. So I'm going to go back to clicking,''' Bernstein said."
02:05:31 [chumpster]
commented item B
02:06:32 [chumpster]
chumpster has quit (Remote closed the connection)
02:06:41 [AaronSw]
url there should have been http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/343/business/On_SiteP.shtml
02:07:38 [chumpster]
chumpster (~chumpster@xcdfddb76.ip.ggn.net) has joined #swhack
02:09:50 [AaronSw]
@ http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/personaltechnology/134378512_ptmac16.html
02:09:54 [chumpster]
C: The Seattle Times: Personal Technology: Entourage X integrates e-mail, contacts, calendar from AaronSw
02:10:28 [AaronSw]
C:|Glenn Says Entourage X's Power is in the Links
02:10:30 [chumpster]
titled item C
02:10:34 [AaronSw]
C::I agree totally.
02:10:36 [chumpster]
commented item C
02:13:22 [sbp]
oh, datatypes suck
02:13:43 [sbp]
.beats
02:13:43 [xena]
The time is @135 at the tone.
02:14:00 [deltab]
uh oh - this is be- is this turning in swhackdot?
02:14:24 [AaronSw]
Heh heh heh.
02:15:15 [sbp]
zoom
02:15:27 [deltab]
damned lag
02:16:23 [deltab]
I was typing that immediately after 020445Z <AaronSw:#swhack> BLURB:Quickies: Assorted Interesting Links
02:16:29 [AaronSw]
I assumed so.
02:16:40 [AaronSw]
Your lag is that bad?
02:16:44 [sbp]
well, that's some lag
02:16:48 [AaronSw]
sbp, what's this about datatypes?
02:17:12 [deltab]
well, some sort of packet loss/timeout interaction
02:17:44 [sbp]
someone should just sit down, and say "this is how it's going to be". The current range if discussions appear to me to be rather silly. Discussions for the point of having a big debate about datatypes, rather than actually resolving the problem
02:18:54 [AaronSw]
Hmm, that's an interesting point of view, but I don't think it's true.
02:18:59 [deltab]
"... resolving the problem"?
02:19:21 [AaronSw]
I think many of the datatypes proposals are interesting, if a bit hard to understand at first.
02:19:25 [deltab]
or was that it?
02:19:32 [AaronSw]
I think that was it.
02:19:54 [AaronSw]
Certainly some seem more likely to be accepted than others, but I don't think people are debating over pointless minutia.
02:20:12 [sbp]
deltab: add "They are" in front of discussions, perhaps that will help
02:20:38 [deltab]
ah
02:20:42 [sbp]
where is the summary of the datatype proposals?
02:20:56 [AaronSw]
.google pat hayes mental dump
02:20:57 [xena]
pat hayes mental dump: http://www.fox.uwc.edu/student.services/studentlife/clubs.html
02:21:15 [AaronSw]
heh, that's not it
02:21:17 [AaronSw]
search the archives for it
02:21:38 [sbp]
I don't even know where to begin. What's the thing called?
02:21:48 [AaronSw]
I just told you
02:21:53 [AaronSw]
"mental dump" by "Pat Hayes"
02:22:01 [sbp]
.google "mental dump" by "Pat Hayes"
02:22:02 [xena]
"mental dump" by "Pat Hayes": http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Nov/0295.html
02:22:15 [AaronSw]
that's it
02:22:22 [sbp]
thanks
02:22:45 [AaronSw]
Then there's the PL proposal which says literals are literals and operations upon them get to decide what format they take.
02:23:05 [AaronSw]
And DanC hates the P* proposals, and they have model theory bugs that seem difficult to resolve.
02:23:22 [AaronSw]
Wow, look at how many times Pat Stickler has replied to that thread. Eeek!
02:23:36 [AaronSw]
I don't really read any of the datatypes stuff, so don't take my word for much.
02:24:28 [sbp]
O.K. It's an interesting page...
02:25:07 [sbp]
"requires literals as subjects" isn't a CON!
02:25:13 [sbp]
PRO, PRO!
02:25:15 [AaronSw]
Heh heh.
02:26:23 [AaronSw]
I must say I think I like the PL proposal the best, since it basically says, "we don't need to deal with datatypes"
02:26:42 [sbp]
reference for the PL proposal?
02:26:55 [AaronSw]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Dec/0003.html
02:26:59 [sbp]
thanks
02:27:13 [AaronSw]
It also has a very funny FAQ from DanC.
02:27:26 [sbp]
heh:-
02:27:27 [sbp]
[[[
02:27:28 [sbp]
Q: er... when I write <age>10</age>, is 10 a string or a number?
02:27:28 [sbp]
A: yes. ;-)
02:27:28 [sbp]
]]]
02:27:31 [AaronSw]
Yeah.
02:27:53 [AaronSw]
[[[
02:27:56 [AaronSw]
Q: but I thought strings and integers were disjoint; that's
02:27:56 [AaronSw]
what the XML Schema spec says.
02:27:56 [AaronSw]
A: hmm... so it does:
02:27:58 [AaronSw]
]]]
02:29:33 [sbp]
yeah, I like that proposal too
02:29:39 [AaronSw]
Cool.
02:29:56 [sbp]
and it's pretty much what we're all doing :-)
02:30:16 [AaronSw]
Exactly. It's a very nice combination of meeting the requirements while not actually making anyone do any work.
02:31:46 [sbp]
heh, heh, heh. Perfect, in that case
02:31:58 [AaronSw]
Patrick Stickler doesn't like it though.
02:32:06 [sbp]
Why not?
02:32:36 [AaronSw]
I think because it doesn't support local datatyping.
02:34:12 [AaronSw]
So there's no way to tell whether I meant "0" to be an integer, decimal, string or boolean.
02:34:25 [sbp]
Does it ever matter?
02:35:25 [AaronSw]
I don't think so, but Mr. Stickler wants to make sure that information is unambigous.
02:35:58 [sbp]
'tis the Stickler way
02:37:15 [sbp]
It's amazing how few home-spun SW apps. there are
02:37:32 [AaronSw]
What's home-spun mean?
02:37:46 [sbp]
everyday stuff
02:37:58 [sbp]
non-commercial
02:38:25 [AaronSw]
Jena, CWN, Euler, SWIPT, PlexRDF sort of thing?
02:38:34 [AaronSw]
s/CWN/CWM/
02:38:40 [sbp]
no, not APIs - I mean appplications, as in uses of the Semantic Web
02:39:07 [AaronSw]
Ah. Like RDFWeb?
02:39:22 [sbp]
s/no, not APIs - I mean appplications, as in uses of the Semantic Web/no, not APIs. I meant applications: as in uses of the Semantic Web/
02:39:38 [sbp]
yes. And "The Simpsons in RDF" (the only use I've had for the SW)
02:40:17 [AaronSw]
That doesn't sound like a legitimate use to me...
02:40:33 [sbp]
Hmm... to re-thingy that sentence once more: "no, not APIs. I meant 'applications' as in 'uses of the Semantic Web'"
02:40:42 [sbp]
how is that not a legitamate use?
02:41:04 [sbp]
what is it with me and vowel swapping, lately?
02:41:06 [AaronSw]
What do you use it for?
02:41:25 [sbp]
I used it to generate the list of quotes. It would have taken me ages by hand
02:41:34 [sbp]
don't you remember? did you look at it?
02:41:48 [AaronSw]
Yeah...
02:42:04 [sbp]
I had a list of quotes, and the episode number. I wanted to put a page up with all the information about the show with that episode number, and the related quotes
02:42:13 [AaronSw]
No, I understand.
02:42:21 [sbp]
(just for the log)
02:42:22 [AaronSw]
I'm just trying to sort things out in my head.
02:43:28 [AaronSw]
I don't think the Semantic Web is very useful. (for the sake of argument)
02:43:44 [sbp]
I'
02:43:47 [sbp]
ugh
02:44:26 [sbp]
I'd find it difficult to argue on evidence, except for: * The Simpsons in RDF * The possibilities raised by EARL * The fact that CWM continually surprises me
02:44:45 [AaronSw]
I'm not saying it has no uses.
02:45:14 [AaronSw]
But, I think on its own, it's not very useful.
02:45:21 [AaronSw]
The original Web was similar, I'd think.
02:45:41 [sbp]
yep... that's what I've been thinking about
02:46:25 [AaronSw]
If you only have one website, the cost of distributing a web browser is probably equal to that of some proprietary client.
02:46:48 [sbp]
it's the n^2 problem
02:47:25 [AaronSw]
n^2 isn't a problem, it's a feature
02:47:28 [sbp]
I'm aware of all that... I just think that progress is staggeringly slow, and with few benefits
02:47:40 [sbp]
how so?
02:48:07 [AaronSw]
n^2 says that networks grow extraordinarily fast. How is that a problem?
02:48:30 [AaronSw]
I think the problem might be that the Semantic Web isn't n^2...
02:48:51 [sbp]
I'm not sure that I follow
02:49:02 [AaronSw]
which part?
02:49:09 [sbp]
all of it
02:49:23 [AaronSw]
n^2 says that the network's value grows at the square of the number of nodes.
02:49:40 [AaronSw]
That's a really cool thing -- everytime someone joins the network, it gets more valuable for everyone.
02:49:54 [sbp]
no, I'm not thinking of it in terms of networking
02:50:05 [sbp]
I'm thinking in terms of deploying software to read data
02:50:11 [AaronSw]
The Web had this property: if everyone had a web browser already, it was much cheaper for you to make content for web browsers, since you could forget about the client side.
02:50:18 [sbp]
when you have n^2 formats, things feck up pretty quickly
02:50:27 [AaronSw]
Oh, I see what you mean.
02:50:37 [sbp]
and I see what you mean now...
02:50:57 [AaronSw]
the format problem is solved by having a format that's a superset of all of them, right?
02:51:04 [sbp]
but the early Web had the problem that is *wasn't* cheaper to publish in HTML and HTTP
02:51:25 [sbp]
the format problem is not solved by a universal format, but by universal tools for that format
02:51:38 [AaronSw]
I disagree strongly.
02:51:39 [sbp]
the proliferation of browsers made the Web
02:51:46 [AaronSw]
To start with, the costs were equal, no?
02:52:12 [sbp]
no. More people had word than WorldWideWeb
02:52:27 [AaronSw]
Oh, I wasn't thinking of Word...
02:52:34 [sbp]
and even if the cost were equal, it's still not cheaper. There's no advantage
02:52:41 [AaronSw]
I was thinking of apps, yeah, you're right...
02:53:05 [sbp]
I'm still not 100% sure how the Web overcame the problem
02:53:21 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw thinks out loud:
02:53:26 [AaronSw]
The Web had features:
02:53:28 [AaronSw]
- hypertext
02:53:29 [sbp]
at CERN, they replaced the phone-book system with HTML/HTTP, but what about elsewhere?
02:53:35 [AaronSw]
- URIs
02:53:44 [AaronSw]
Yeah, the phonebook was why I was thinking of apps and not documents.
02:54:28 [sbp]
sorry... carry on with the features :-)
02:54:46 [AaronSw]
I think that's it, really.
02:54:50 [AaronSw]
I think it was the URIs that did it.
02:54:52 [sbp]
heh, heh, heh
02:54:56 [sbp]
yeah
02:55:03 [sbp]
well, HTTP to some extent too
02:55:18 [AaronSw]
HTTP was just a slimmer version of FTP for most purposes.
02:55:53 [sbp]
but I still don't know how it got over the main barrier: getting out of the service/client loop. Perhaps it was just luck?
02:56:23 [AaronSw]
I think that's pretty obvious.
02:56:36 [sbp]
and with the Semantic Web, it's much more difficult. There's no "click a link, and another document appears!"
02:56:39 [AaronSw]
"The killer app for the Web was whatever got you hooked."
02:57:07 [AaronSw]
There were people like us who built things for the Web because we were idealists
02:57:17 [AaronSw]
and then there were people who downloaded the client software to see our stuff.
02:57:41 [sbp]
heh, that's true. But I'm wondering if there are enough idealists and projects for the SW
02:57:43 [AaronSw]
The idealists pushed the bobsled until things hit critical mass.
02:58:02 [AaronSw]
The real question is whether there's a bobsled for the idealists to push.
02:58:18 [AaronSw]
If I put my data up in RDF, what are you going to download to see it with?
02:58:27 [sbp]
CWM
02:58:36 [sbp]
s/see/process/
02:58:43 [AaronSw]
But that's the point.
02:58:55 [sbp]
in fact, I already have it installed, so it'll save me the bother
02:58:59 [AaronSw]
If the only thing to do with RDF data is to process it, won't it be limited to idealists who want to process RDF data?
02:59:24 [sbp]
Hmm... good point
02:59:52 [AaronSw]
This is why I think the Plex is cool: it still has these network effects.
02:59:54 [sbp]
Is "sed" limited to idealists who want to process text data?
03:00:11 [AaronSw]
No, because sed was created after text data was the standard.
03:00:20 [AaronSw]
Not to make it the standard.
03:00:23 [sbp]
Plex will be kick-ass if/when it works
03:00:43 [sbp]
yeah, bad analogy
03:01:33 [sbp]
but I meant that I can still use CWM for some things, so it must be at-least-a-little-bit useful
03:02:05 [AaronSw]
yeah, but it's not going to drive RDF adoption like the Web browser did.
03:02:19 [sbp]
true
03:03:48 [AaronSw]
So what's RDF's use case?
03:03:57 [AaronSw]
Solving the formats problem, I think.
03:04:40 [sbp]
yeah, but I don't deal with data exchange much, and I'll bet that a lot of people feel the same way. Does that mean that RDF will be something with a niche market?
03:05:11 [AaronSw]
You don't deal with data exchange much?!
03:05:15 [sbp]
OTOH, TSIR gives me hope
03:05:24 [AaronSw]
TSIR?
03:05:50 [sbp]
logster, grep -i T.*?S.*?I.*?R
03:06:26 [logster]
I'm logging. I found 12078 answers for 'T.*?S.*?I.*?R' (showing 0...4)
03:06:27 [logster]
0) 2001-12-17 03:05:50 <sbp> logster, grep -i T.*?S.*?I.*?R
03:06:28 [logster]
1) 2001-12-17 03:05:24 <AaronSw> TSIR?
03:06:29 [logster]
2) 2001-12-17 03:05:15 <sbp> OTOH, TSIR gives me hope
03:06:30 [logster]
3) 2001-12-17 03:04:40 <sbp> yeah, but I don't deal with data exchange much, and I'll bet that a lot of people feel the same way. Does that mean that RDF will be something with a niche market?
03:06:31 [logster]
4) 2001-12-17 03:02:05 <AaronSw> yeah, but it's not going to drive RDF adoption like the Web browser did.
03:06:34 [AaronSw]
that'll match a lot
03:06:34 [AaronSw]
.acronym tsir
03:06:34 [xena]
tsir: Test Ship Integration Requirement
03:06:37 [sbp]
Pff...
03:06:41 [sbp]
The Simpsons in RDF
03:06:45 [AaronSw]
Ah.
03:06:59 [AaronSw]
That's just a simple database problem.
03:07:04 [sbp]
yep
03:07:24 [sbp]
but if someone had already published that data in RDF, it would have been a pretty quick thing to do
03:07:35 [AaronSw]
Yep.
03:07:45 [AaronSw]
That's the data exchange proposition, I think.
03:07:55 [AaronSw]
Querying a large store of data -- that's the Plex proposition too.
03:08:17 [sbp]
but data is pretty boring, don't you reckon? Documentation is where it's at
03:08:29 [sbp]
And who wants a data model for documentation?
03:08:48 [AaronSw]
I don't think data is boring.
03:09:04 [sbp]
reminder: this is coming from someone who currently generates his homepage from RDF
03:09:23 [AaronSw]
And your homepage is documentation.
03:09:32 [sbp]
well, there are bits of data
03:09:51 [sbp]
it's about a 30:70 mix, probably (based on line count)
03:09:51 [AaronSw]
Data is everywhere. Why do you think Ellison was worth almost as much as Microsoft?
03:10:07 [AaronSw]
s/Microsoft/Gates/
03:10:30 [sbp]
but it's kinda boring. Really, what important data is out there? Think of some use cases for RDF for me :-)
03:10:39 [AaronSw]
Heh.
03:10:44 [AaronSw]
Organizing your email.
03:10:58 [AaronSw]
Finding people to come visit you.
03:11:14 [AaronSw]
Looking for jobs, universities, etc.
03:11:22 [AaronSw]
Finding the cheapest price for stuff.
03:11:46 [AaronSw]
Finding out when the Simpsons will be on.
03:12:00 [AaronSw]
Getting articles/books/+ you like.
03:12:22 [AaronSw]
A lot of stuff is data.
03:12:36 [sbp]
keep going - I was enjoying that :-)
03:12:41 [AaronSw]
Heh.
03:13:00 [AaronSw]
It's hard because almost everything is an answer!
03:13:53 [AaronSw]
Anything you've ever asked xena is a data question.
03:14:31 [AaronSw]
Let me see if I can refactor that:
03:14:33 [AaronSw]
Can I trust X?
03:14:36 [AaronSw]
Is X important?
03:14:50 [AaronSw]
Find me X
03:18:38 [AaronSw]
Well, I think I'm going to go watch Memento now...
03:18:44 [sbp]
have fun
03:19:21 [sbp]
when you come back, add --strings to the list of options at n3tordf. Cheers
03:19:27 [AaronSw]
Cool.
03:19:34 [AaronSw]
c'ya
03:19:38 [sbp]
* sbp likes to spring requests on people
03:19:39 [sbp]
c'ya
03:29:42 [sbp]
sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m220-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com)))
03:29:56 [sbp]
sbp (~sean@m220-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack
03:31:06 [sbp]
I thought of putting up a page that scrapes data from the Web as-is. A kind of syndication thing. It could show the last thing chumped at #swhack, stock quotes, T.V. schedules, weather information, and so on... but all of those feeds would need to be in RDF
03:31:54 [sbp]
I suppose that would make a great app - people could start running their own personal syndication home pages, with the information that matters most to them. All they'd need to learn would be N3 --strings, and perhaps that could be automated
03:32:16 [sbp]
but it relies upon the information being provided by someone in RDF. And that's not happening right now
03:54:43 [wmf]
wmf (wesf@cs242724-5.austin.rr.com) has joined #swhack
03:54:47 [wmf]
howdy
04:00:09 [wmf]
any swhackers around?
04:00:21 [sbp]
Hi Wes
04:00:35 [wmf]
hey sbp
04:00:50 [sbp]
Aaron went to watch something; not sure when he'll be back
04:01:03 [wmf]
too bad, I was going to taunt him
05:14:10 [wmf]
wmf has quit ("wmf has no reason")
05:14:42 [sbp]
why does he have no reason?
05:15:56 [AaronSw]
heh, i dunno
05:16:29 [AaronSw]
BLURB:Memento
05:16:33 [chumpster]
D: Memento from AaronSw
05:22:28 [sbp]
welcome back
05:22:30 [sbp]
Gotta run
05:22:44 [AaronSw]
sheesh
05:22:56 [AaronSw]
D::An incredible movie. Entertaining, and really made you think.
05:22:58 [chumpster]
commented item D
05:23:19 [AaronSw]
D::Confusing as anything, though. I've been thinking about it all night and I still don't understand it.
05:23:20 [chumpster]
commented item D
05:25:33 [sbp]
sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
06:13:55 [AaronSw]
.email me@aaronsw.com todo: --strings on n3tordf // <sbp> when you come back, add --strings to the list of options at n3tordf. Cheers
06:13:56 [xena]
email successfully sent.
06:14:42 [AaronSw]
D::MAJOR SPOILERS: Salon seems to have [a nice analysis|http://www.salon.com/ent/movies/feature/2001/06/28/memento_analysis/] and these [images|http://phys.columbia.edu/~flame/memento/Images.html] are very revealing.
06:14:44 [chumpster]
commented item D
06:16:17 [AaronSw]
D::Even Salon couldn't figure it out, so [readers stepped in|http://www.salon.com/ent/letters/2001/07/04/memento/] (more spoliers)
06:16:18 [chumpster]
commented item D
06:31:49 [GabeW]
GabeW (~gwachob@12.236.92.153) has joined #swhack
06:32:39 [AaronSw]
time for sleep...
06:32:42 [AaronSw]
nite
06:32:46 [GabeW]
nite AaronSw
06:33:01 [GabeW]
like ships passing in the night
06:33:09 [AaronSw]
heh
06:33:24 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw goes to sleep still piecing out the "Memento" puzzle.
06:33:29 [AaronSw]
I think I almost have it now.
06:33:47 [AaronSw]
c'ya
06:38:12 [GabeW]
anyone else here?
06:40:50 [hazmat]
hazmat (~ender@adsl-66-123-57-58.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) has joined #swhack
06:41:14 [GabeW]
hey
07:07:30 [GabeW]
GabeW has quit ("Client Exiting")
12:57:55 [xena]
xena has quit ()
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xena (xena@mewtwo.espnow.com) has joined #swhack
13:28:46 [em]
em (~em@dhcp065-024-049-132.columbus.rr.com) has joined #swhack
13:39:44 [Morbus]
Morbus (~Morbus@s94.terminal3.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack
14:16:04 [Morbus]
Morbus has quit (Remote closed the connection)
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14:40:00 [AaronSw]
the crowd returns
14:41:27 [Morbus]
hmm?
14:41:57 [AaronSw]
Woohoo, Wes linked to us.
14:42:58 [Morbus]
heh, cool!
14:43:51 [Morbus]
its like famous.
14:43:57 [Morbus]
second article came out this weekend.
14:44:08 [AaronSw]
Yeah, I chumped it.
14:44:09 [Morbus]
and i'm trying to figure out a way to make a linux program run at reboot.
14:44:15 [Morbus]
oh you did? shessh.
14:44:37 [AaronSw]
http://blogspace.com/swhack/weblog/2001/12/16/#i1008530018.051543
14:45:13 [Morbus]
heh, heh. yeah, i thought youd' get a kick outta that python thing
14:46:21 [Morbus]
any ideas on how to set up an os x box for dialin?
14:47:52 [AaronSw]
not really
14:52:44 [AaronSw]
So who're you voting for in the Scripting News Awards?
14:53:14 [Morbus]
pfft.
14:53:18 [Morbus]
i didn't even know about it.
14:53:23 [AaronSw]
Heh.
14:53:26 [Morbus]
haven't had a moment to think lately
14:54:38 [AaronSw]
And to think -- you could have been Devil of the Year!
14:55:04 [Morbus]
oh yeah?
14:55:09 [Morbus]
wait, i shoudl check these out <g>
14:55:12 [Morbus]
link?
14:56:08 [AaronSw]
They're still secret...
14:56:31 [Morbus]
so how did you find out about it?
14:56:41 [AaronSw]
URL-guessing.
14:57:11 [em]
* em points all swhack people to rdfig question... timeing on this appreciated
14:57:47 [em]
* em replays question here... but apprciate response in rdfig
14:57:49 [em]
Question: is there general concensus amoung this group regarding how best to associate metadata with an XHTML document?
15:18:10 [Morbus]
Morbus has quit ("http://www.disobey.com/")
15:40:02 [AaronSw]
@ http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/ap/20011207/us/students_porn_1.html
15:40:07 [chumpster]
E: Online Porn Mars Va. Laptop Program from AaronSw
15:40:28 [AaronSw]
E:|Students Find Innovative Uses for New Laptops
15:40:29 [chumpster]
titled item E
15:41:46 [AaronSw]
E::"Edwards said the county has one of the best Internet filtering systems on the market. However, the filter does not block access to Web sites unless there is a reference to sex in the address or the site's text."
15:41:48 [chumpster]
commented item E
15:42:01 [AaronSw]
E::<sarcasm>Wow! What a clever filter.</sarcasm>
15:42:03 [chumpster]
commented item E
15:45:07 [AaronSw]
E::Well, I guess we better get rid of the Internet-connected computers in the cybercafes, libraries, friends houses, workplaces, homes, museums, hospitals and airports.
15:45:09 [chumpster]
commented item E
15:55:23 [AaronSw]
Hee hee: http://iowa.weblogger.com/2001/12/03
15:55:26 [AaronSw]
"We're making a big change in our choice of kitchen platforms today. Out goes the old blue carpeting with its limited scriptability and lack of XML support. In comes the linoleum with its superior moppability and support for multiple milk-spills within a single supper session."
15:58:12 [AaronSw]
B::[John VanDyk gets a new kitchen platform|http://iowa.weblogger.com/2001/12/03]: "We're making a big change in our choice of kitchen platforms today. Out goes the old blue carpeting with its limited scriptability and lack of XML support. In comes the linoleum with its superior moppability and support for multiple milk-spills within a single supper session."
15:58:14 [chumpster]
commented item B
17:01:38 [sbp]
sbp (~sean@m277-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack
17:02:04 [AaronSw]
heelo
17:02:12 [sbp]
Hi there
17:03:09 [AaronSw]
Is your son a computer hacker? http://home.dal.net/shrub/Adequacy_org%20%20Is%20Your%20Son%20a%20Computer%20Hacker.htm
17:04:36 [AaronSw]
@ http://home.dal.net/shrub/Adequacy_org%20%20Is%20Your%20Son%20a%20Computer%20Hacker.htm
17:04:37 [sbp]
lol!
17:04:54 [chumpster]
F: http://home.dal.net/shrub/Adequacy_org%20%20Is%20Your%20Son%20a%20Computer%20Hacker.htm from AaronSw
17:05:02 [AaronSw]
F:|Is Your Son a Computer Hacker?
17:05:04 [chumpster]
titled item F
17:05:09 [AaronSw]
F::"""Popular hacker software includes "Comet Cursor", "Bonzi Buddy" and "Flash"."""
17:05:11 [chumpster]
commented item F
17:06:01 [sbp]
I like the comments at the bottom that take it seriously
17:06:05 [AaronSw]
Heh.
17:08:17 [AaronSw]
F::"""BSD, Lunix, Debian and Mandrake are all versions of an illegal hacker operation system, invented by a Soviet computer hacker named Linyos Torovoltos, before the Russians lost the Cold War. It is based on a program called "xenix", which was written by Microsoft for the US government."""
17:08:18 [chumpster]
commented item F
17:11:46 [AaronSw]
Heh, the one about girls is funny.
17:21:45 [AaronSw]
F::It's extremely important to keep your children away from [l33t hacker s1tes|http://wmf.editthispage.com/]. Make sure they don't get involved with the malicious [ring-leaders of the Hacker Underground|http://felter.org/wesley/]. Avoid this *at all costs*.
17:21:47 [chumpster]
commented item F
17:22:25 [AaronSw]
F::I also suggest boycotting the [Scripting News Awards|http://www.scripting.com/awards/2001/] for their [support|http://www.scripting.com/awards/2001/#bestTechnologyWeblog] and [recommendations|http://www.scripting.com/awards/2001/#bloggerOfTheYear] for these evil hackers!
17:22:28 [chumpster]
commented item F
17:24:00 [sbp]
F::Pff... why weren't we nominated?
17:24:01 [chumpster]
commented item F
17:24:18 [AaronSw]
F::Yeah, that's possibly another reason to boycott them...
17:24:19 [chumpster]
commented item F
17:24:30 [sbp]
Heh, heh, heh
17:24:42 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw emails Wes thanking him for the link and letting him know that we "returned the favor"
17:25:23 [sbp]
neat
17:26:43 [AaronSw]
.google hacker
17:26:43 [xena]
hacker: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html
17:26:58 [AaronSw]
.google hack
17:26:58 [xena]
hack: http://wmf.editthispage.com
17:31:23 [AaronSw]
Wow according to CNET <http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-7946411.html?tag=prntr> HTTP Basic Authentication is so secure even search engines can't crack it.
17:31:35 [sbp]
@ http://www.guardian.co.uk/internetnews/story/0,7369,617650,00.html
17:31:38 [sbp]
heh, heh
17:31:44 [chumpster]
G: http://www.guardian.co.uk/internetnews/story/0,7369,617650,00.html from sbp
17:32:05 [AaronSw]
They also say Google made the critical mistake of allowing their users access to public documents without thinking of the security costs! What if someone stored their password files on the Web?
17:32:48 [AaronSw]
G:|Will Consumers Pay for Music They Used to Get for Free?
17:32:49 [chumpster]
titled item G
17:33:28 [sbp]
sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m745-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com)))
17:33:42 [sbp]
sbp (~sean@m745-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack
17:33:45 [AaronSw]
G::See also [the band that found success in a PayPal account|http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,49103,00.html].
17:33:47 [chumpster]
commented item G
17:33:58 [sbp]
G::
17:33:58 [chumpster]
http://www.guardian.co.uk/internetnews/story/0,7369,617650,00.html
17:33:59 [chumpster]
Will Consumers Pay for Music They Used to Get for Free?
17:34:00 [chumpster]
(AaronSw) See also [the band that found success in a PayPal account|http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,49103,00.html].
17:34:34 [sbp]
thanks
17:34:42 [sbp]
connection folded again...
17:35:34 [sbp]
"The two decided anyone who donated over $20 would get a free copy of the album when it was complete"?
17:35:46 [GabeW]
GabeW (~gwachob@12-236-92-153.client.attbi.com) has joined #swhack
17:35:51 [sbp]
Give us $20 and get a free album? What's that about?
17:36:11 [AaronSw]
Heh.
17:36:32 [AaronSw]
Ever seen those TV drives... oh wait, you have the BBC.
17:36:54 [AaronSw]
Basically they give you incentives for donating, but the stuff is too overpriced to be an actual purchase.
17:37:07 [sbp]
yeah
17:37:20 [sbp]
Like seeing Steve Nicks naked
17:44:27 [AaronSw]
t figure out how to delete it it...
17:44:30 [AaronSw]
oops
17:45:07 [sbp]
heh, heh
17:45:10 [sbp]
delete what?
17:45:23 [AaronSw]
nothing
17:58:02 [AaronSw]
Now here's an interesting problem: Who do you appeal to when you disagree with a decision in the TAG?
17:58:29 [AaronSw]
The Chair is TimBL, so you'd appeal to the director... which is also TimBL. So you could go to the team contact, which is also TimBL.
17:58:53 [AaronSw]
Oh, no Ian is the Team Contact.
17:59:34 [AaronSw]
Invited Experts could talk to their AC Rep, which apparently is TimBL.
18:02:49 [sbp]
sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
18:16:18 [whump]
whump (~whump@A17-212-22-236.apple.com) has joined #swhack
18:16:28 [AaronSw]
whump!
18:16:37 [whump]
Yo.
18:16:39 [AaronSw]
Good to see you here!
18:16:50 [whump]
Thanks.
18:17:05 [AaronSw]
Everyone, this is whump of whump.com. and the More Like This Web Log: http://www.whump.com/moreLikeThis/index.php3
18:18:34 [AaronSw]
so what brings you here?
18:18:37 [whump]
Thanks for the into, Aaron, it's good to be welcomed.
18:18:43 [AaronSw]
No problem.
18:18:56 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw adds a link to "More Like This" from the Swhack Weblog...
18:19:25 [whump]
I was doing my morning 'reading blogs before starting to be productive' and saw Wes' pointer to Swhack.
18:19:54 [GabeW]
sometimes reading blogs prevents productivity for me altogether
18:20:00 [AaronSw]
Heh.
18:20:21 [GabeW]
whump - you another bay arean?
18:20:49 [AaronSw]
Hmm, I wonder where Morbus is today... he's usually around here stirring up trouble.
18:21:54 [whump]
Gabe - yes, I'm in RWC.
18:22:06 [GabeW]
heh
18:22:12 [GabeW]
i'm in redwood shores
18:22:42 [whump]
I work in Cupertino, however.
18:22:48 [GabeW]
ahh
18:22:55 [GabeW]
yes, the domain does say .apple.com
18:22:59 [AaronSw]
Heh, yeah.
18:23:24 [GabeW]
i work at home =)
18:24:55 [whump]
Kevin's had a couple of articles come out on O'Reilly. I'm psyched to see all the support OS X is getting from the developer community. I almost stopped to thank a random person I saw working on his TiBook on a flight Thursday night.
18:25:16 [AaronSw]
Heh heh.
18:25:42 [GabeW]
nobody calls him Kevin here - nobody will know who you are talking about ;0)
18:25:51 [sbp]
sbp (~sean@m17-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack
18:26:15 [GabeW]
we all call sbp slappy around here though
18:26:17 [GabeW]
;-)
18:27:30 [whump]
Okay... I'm going to lurk.
18:27:46 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw goes back to playing Breakout on his iPod. ;-)
18:28:36 [sbp]
* sbp wonders what's going on
18:29:23 [sbp]
* sbp had read the logs, and is actually partially aware of what's going on... wmf has a lot to answer for
18:29:34 [AaronSw]
Heh heh.
18:31:58 [sbp]
logster, grep 1-2 <Morbus>
18:32:35 [logster]
I'm logging. I found 10075 answers for '<Morbus>' (showing 1...2)
18:32:36 [logster]
1) 2001-12-17 15:18:10 <Morbus> Morbus has quit ("http://www.disobey.com/")
18:32:37 [logster]
2) 2001-12-17 14:56:31 <Morbus> so how did you find out about it?
18:32:38 [AaronSw]
.seen Morbus
18:32:38 [xena]
Morbus seen leaving #infoanarchy [ ] ~ 3 hr(s) 29 min(s) 50 sec(s) ago
18:32:38 [AaronSw]
.seen Morbus 2
18:32:38 [xena]
Morbus seen leaving #syndic8 [ ] ~ 3 hr(s) 32 min(s) 47 sec(s) ago
18:33:09 [sbp]
ah, missed that
18:33:38 [sbp]
* sbp finds <em> Question: is there general concensus amoung this group regarding how best to associate metadata with an XHTML document?
18:33:43 [sbp]
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
18:34:34 [AaronSw]
We decided on <link rel="meta" type="application/rdf+xml" /> I think.
18:39:03 [GabeW]
is there a way to put metadata inline -- e.g. RDF? (forgive me if thats a stupid question, I don't always pay attention)
18:39:24 [sbp]
no, there is not
18:39:44 [AaronSw]
Well there is, but Sean doesn't like it.
18:40:02 [sbp]
there is not a way which is consistent with Web architecture => there is not a way
18:40:28 [AaronSw]
How is it inconstent with Web Architecture?
18:40:47 [GabeW]
* GabeW is sorry for picking at this scab
18:40:53 [AaronSw]
Heh.
18:41:00 [sbp]
* Meaning is defined by document's root namespace - XHTML says nothing about what embedded RDF means * Try validating it
18:41:35 [AaronSw]
That's what I thought. I think that just means it's incompatible with XHTML 1.0, not web architecture.
18:42:10 [sbp]
well... yes. But those are both axiomatic principles (grounding meaning, and validating)
18:43:18 [GabeW]
* GabeW hears the words "axiomatic principles" and eyes glass overf
18:43:39 [sbp]
heh, heh, heh
18:58:22 [sbp]
sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
18:59:54 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw wanders off
19:41:06 [GabeW]
GabeW has quit ("Client Exiting")
20:06:25 [kmacleod]
kmacleod (~ken@kmacleod.static.iaxs.net) has joined #swhack
20:14:45 [Morbus]
Morbus (~Morbus@morbus.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack
20:15:06 [Morbus]
love me, love me, say that you love me.
20:15:29 [kmacleod]
eek
20:15:37 [Morbus]
heh, hey ken!
20:15:51 [Morbus]
did i just interrupt some great conversation? about how serios the constituents of swhack are?
20:16:04 [kmacleod]
nope. I missed that convo.
20:16:10 [Morbus]
ah. ok. so did I.
20:17:26 [kmacleod]
I popped by to duel Aaron re open relays and the dg on Hack the Planet ;)
20:17:26 [Morbus]
anything exciting going on?
20:17:34 [Morbus]
heh!
20:17:43 [Morbus]
any more development on that? i just know it exist(ed?)
20:18:31 [Morbus]
man, i have so much crap to read.
20:18:39 [Morbus]
i have like 30 uncategorized bookmarks in my root folder.
20:18:42 [kmacleod]
I commented!
20:18:58 [Morbus]
oOoh. got the url handy?
20:19:12 [kmacleod]
http://wmf.editthispage.com/discuss/msgReader$6671
20:19:42 [kmacleod]
on a completely different note, I think I may like Gnome better than MOSX...
20:19:56 [Morbus]
gasp!? <G>
20:20:12 [Morbus]
yeah, we had a customer that had an open relay - he was using authenticated smtp with it so it was "ok".
20:20:42 [kmacleod]
I've had the good fortune over the last week to have received a PII 350MHz big and fast enough to run RedHat 7.2, and it's, uhm, pretty nice ;)
20:20:52 [Morbus]
for a little while, i was blocking all .ru people.
20:21:48 [kmacleod]
it's nowhere near as polished as MOSX, which means I wouldn't recommend it to anyone but geeks, but for a geek, it has most of the niceties of MOSX
20:22:14 [kmacleod]
and if they get better with components, I may be a really happy geek
20:22:50 [kmacleod]
better with components == more like OpenDoc, but alas I don't see that happening.
20:25:41 [kmacleod]
hehe, and the really wierd thing is that Interviews (now Fresco, and incorporated in Berlin) is exactly the sort of OpenDoc-like thing that would please me, and it is not only Unix-and-X-Windows-based, but precedes OpenDoc by years
20:26:17 [kmacleod]
sadly, it's based on C++, which sucks for dynamic parts :(
20:27:51 [Morbus]
catching up...
20:28:10 [Morbus]
ah...
20:28:21 [Morbus]
have you gotten X working on os x?
20:28:35 [kmacleod]
no, not yet.
20:28:40 [Morbus]
i've got fink 2/3 of the way with it, but i'm on a 56k, so the last 50 meg dl for it keeps getting cut off.
20:28:52 [kmacleod]
not sure I will, now that I've got a real X box
20:29:05 [Morbus]
or, you know, you could run VPC with rh 7.2 ;)
20:29:23 [Morbus]
i've got an old rh 5.0 box, but haven't really messed with it much.
20:29:35 [Morbus]
never went to 7.0 cos i kept hearing evil horrors about cpan
20:30:04 [kmacleod]
hah! I can *just* get Xine to zero dropped frames with a real PII 350MHz, no way a 300MHz PPC running VPC is gonna cut it ;)
20:30:17 [Morbus]
heh, heh :)
20:30:25 [Morbus]
yeah, its pretty damn slow on a dual 450 too.
20:30:41 [Morbus]
i use it only for cross plat code testing right now.
20:32:29 [kmacleod]
I haven't run into the 7.2 problems yet, I'm still glowing with the new features (particularly the up-to-date Gnome and a slew of new now-installed-by-default packages)
20:32:48 [Morbus]
what do you think about the "don't distro our cds" thingy?
20:33:37 [kmacleod]
hard to say. it's not clear yet whether it's "don't distro our cds" or "don't say you're selling RedHat Linux"
20:33:58 [kmacleod]
the latter I agree with, the former isn't clear
20:41:14 [Morbus]
bah. i hate mondays.
20:41:20 [Morbus]
hey, been reading my o'reilly articles? ;)
20:41:43 [kmacleod]
I think I saw the link...
21:08:50 [kmacleod]
heh, while I agree that "open relay" != "open SPAM relay", this article goes deeply into conspiracy theory: http://www.dotcomeon.com/
21:23:00 [kmacleod]
hehe, Dan Lyke is running his own awards with, hold on to your hats, *public* nominations!
21:25:42 [Morbus]
heh!
21:25:46 [Morbus]
dan lyke's a good guy.
21:26:41 [kmacleod]
it'd sure be a hoot if a dozen other sites helped him ;)
21:30:30 [Morbus]
if i have time, i'll send him off my thoughts tongiht.
21:30:41 [Morbus]
got so much stuff to do, its pathetic.
21:35:04 [sbp]
sbp (~sean@m906-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack
21:36:05 [sbp]
Hi
21:36:19 [sbp]
Is anyone out there
21:36:27 [kmacleod]
nope
21:36:33 [kmacleod]
I'm not here.
21:36:35 [sbp]
????!!!!!!!
21:36:44 [sbp]
sbp is now known as Stu
21:36:48 [whump]
whump has quit (Remote closed the connection)
21:36:52 [Stu]
that is alie
21:37:09 [Morbus]
huh?
21:37:16 [Stu]
sorry a lie
21:37:49 [Stu]
Stupid PC keyboard, a mac man you see
21:37:59 [Stu]
imacs rule!!!!
21:39:37 [Stu]
confused?????
21:40:00 [Stu]
I know the feeling
21:53:48 [Stu]
Does anyone know how to change imovie recordings into mp3's and not Aiff?
21:54:06 [kmacleod]
not me
21:54:20 [Morbus]
save to aiff and then convert using sound recorder ;)
21:54:32 [kmacleod]
hmm, does iMovie import dvd VOBs?
21:54:49 [Stu]
sorry, sound recorder?
21:55:06 [Stu]
I don't know; interesting though
21:55:07 [Morbus]
just a generic sound util. get it from versiontracker.com
21:55:27 [Stu]
Is it free?
21:55:42 [Morbus]
um. think so. not sure.
21:56:02 [Stu]
My music is taking up over 1.2GB
21:56:21 [Morbus]
that's nothing.
21:56:23 [Morbus]
i'm at 3 gigs :)
21:56:39 [Stu]
Wow!!!
21:56:53 [Morbus]
why the hell are you stu?
21:57:33 [Stu]
I am Sean's friend back home from Uni
21:57:58 [Morbus]
aahh. ok.
21:57:59 [Stu]
sbp: screw you, Morbus, I have friends!
21:58:03 [Morbus]
where's sean?
21:58:05 [Morbus]
hehe!
21:58:17 [Morbus]
not outside #swhack, luser ;)
21:58:21 [Stu]
I apologise for Sean
21:58:27 [Morbus]
yeah, hit him for me.
21:58:48 [Stu]
bitter rival a
21:58:56 [Stu]
He ran away
21:58:56 [Morbus]
oh yes.
21:59:00 [Morbus]
me and sean hate each other.
22:00:52 [Stu]
you would not have guessed
22:01:08 [Morbus]
i know. we kept it relatively hidden.
22:01:11 [Morbus]
even AaronSw doesn't know.
22:01:34 [Stu]
I have to go now, see ya and thanks for the advice
22:01:39 [Morbus]
ciao.
22:02:28 [kmacleod]
* kmacleod tries to figure out the memory usage of a process in Solaris
22:10:09 [AaronSw`]
AaronSw` (~aaronsw@xcdfddb76.ip.ggn.net) has joined #swhack
22:10:25 [AaronSw`]
* AaronSw` waves from library
22:11:14 [kmacleod]
I disagreed with your post re. Gilmore and Open Relays
22:12:01 [AaronSw`]
Really? Why is that?
22:12:29 [AaronSw`]
* AaronSw` notes that IRC thru the Web like this is painful...
22:12:43 [kmacleod]
in general, I agree with blacklisting.
22:12:51 [Morbus]
same here.
22:12:57 [Morbus]
i blacklist with spamcop's rbl.
22:13:19 [kmacleod]
I do agree that Gilmore's case is the exception, and should be treated that way by blacklisters
22:13:32 [AaronSw`]
Hmm, I don't understand why? Do you think we should stop spam at the network level? The router level?
22:13:41 [kmacleod]
yes.
22:14:01 [kmacleod]
and for reference, it has been treated at that level in a few cases
22:14:55 [AaronSw`]
Do you think we should censor inappropriate (illegal) webpages at those levels too?
22:15:15 [Morbus]
webpages don't come to you without your asking.
22:15:34 [Stu]
* Stu waves
22:15:36 [Stu]
er...
22:15:38 [Stu]
Stu is now known as sbp
22:15:41 [sbp]
* sbp waves too
22:16:00 [kmacleod]
what morbus said
22:16:00 [Morbus]
hey AaronSw`, get this, sbp had a friend over his house.
22:16:02 [AaronSw`]
Hi Stu, sbp
22:16:11 [Morbus]
i think he's just testing a new bot and lying about it.
22:16:15 [AaronSw`]
POP mail is requested... I'm not sure what the point is.
22:16:15 [sbp]
Hi, it's just me. Stu is in the lounge chatting
22:16:22 [sbp]
heh, intelligent bot techniques
22:16:41 [AaronSw`]
No, Stu's visited here before.
22:17:06 [AaronSw`]
* AaronSw` checks to see if they have any books by the esteemed Mr. Palmer at this library
22:17:07 [sbp]
* sbp notices that it's the mustachioed library version of AaronSw
22:17:14 [sbp]
heh, they damn well better
22:17:33 [AaronSw`]
Hmm, the catalog recommends "Search Gay" instead.
22:17:39 [sbp]
* sbp had better go mingle
22:17:40 [sbp]
lol!
22:17:50 [sbp]
damn thing. Hit it with something
22:18:11 [AaronSw`]
Doesn't look like they do.
22:18:24 [AaronSw`]
Oh, cool! The Web IRC thing seems to be working... sure took it a while.
22:19:14 [AaronSw`]
Hmm, maybe it isn't working.
22:20:02 [AaronSw`]
Man, their online catalog software is awful.
22:20:45 [AaronSw`]
Ugh! I gotta go. c'ya
22:20:49 [AaronSw`]
AaronSw` has quit ("CGI:IRC 0.4.1")
22:22:14 [Morbus]
Morbus has left #swhack
22:25:12 [Morbus]
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22:27:13 [kmacleod]
hmm, I'm missing where web pages came into the spam discussion. I remember seeing one message, but now I can't find it.
22:31:26 [AaronSw`]
AaronSw` (~aaronsw@xcdfddb76.ip.ggn.net) has joined #swhack
22:31:45 [AaronSw`]
* AaronSw` notes not to go on IRC when he has a train to catch
22:32:02 [AaronSw`]
I missed it by literally 3 seconds. The door closed as I got there.
22:33:14 [AaronSw`]
.email rs@interaccess.com directions // lake forest library is across the street behind the train station. i'm in the computer lounge which is to the left as you walk in
22:33:15 [xena]
email successfully sent.
22:34:58 [Morbus]
Morbus has quit ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com)")
22:47:41 [kmacleod]
where is documented where blacklisters escalated from blocking SMTP to blocking URLs and DNS? Gilmore mentions it in reference to MAPS, but MAPS doesn't say anything like that, afaics
22:48:58 [deltab]
I've heard that MAPS has a subscription service that changes routing, advertising false routes for listed addresses
22:52:00 [deltab]
"BGP feed" - http://mail-abuse.org/feestructure.html
22:56:52 [kmacleod]
hmm, it's not clear where that involves non-SMTP traffic
22:57:29 [deltab]
changing the route affects *all* traffic, not just SMTP
23:00:48 [kmacleod]
iirc, at that level the routing can be port-specific, ie. "drop all SMTP packets from IP x.x.x.x."
23:01:18 [kmacleod]
so I'm still trying to find a reference that contradicts that
23:01:34 [deltab]
does BGP support that?
23:02:15 [kmacleod]
I believe so
23:03:36 [deltab]
there's no mention of ports in the RFC, except that BGP uses port 179
23:04:00 [AaronSw`]
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23:05:58 [AaronSw`]
* AaronSw` uses the end-to-end argument (among others) in http://wmf.editthispage.com/discuss/msgReader$6673
23:08:37 [kmacleod]
note: I have no argument with properly operating open relays!
23:08:55 [deltab]
the router configuration example given in http://mail-abuse.org/rbl/usage.html also makes no mention of ports
23:09:12 [kmacleod]
neither does:
23:09:19 [kmacleod]
http://www.pch.net/documents/tutorials/maps-rbl-bgp-cisco-config-faq.html
23:10:35 [AaronSw`]
ok, time to go
23:10:40 [AaronSw`]
AaronSw` has quit ("CGI:IRC 0.4.1")
23:13:40 [kmacleod]
yup. subscribing to the BGP service cuts all traffic from the blacklisted IP
23:18:28 [Morbus]
Morbus (~Morbus@s102.terminal3.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack
23:19:21 [Morbus]
man, oh mn, i'm getting my ass kicked
23:20:21 [kmacleod]
I'm not seeing it as a blacklist requirement so much as a technical approach
23:22:13 [sbp]
sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
23:23:02 [Morbus]
heh! you're stioll talking about bl's?
23:31:21 [kmacleod]
am not!
23:31:25 [kmacleod]
* kmacleod ;)
23:31:30 [Morbus]
heh.
23:34:43 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw gets home
23:35:07 [sbp]
sbp (~sean@m509-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack
23:35:47 [kmacleod]
aaron: the link is razor.sf.net, not vipul.sf.net
23:35:56 [AaronSw]
oops
23:39:46 [sbp]
Bit of TAG discussion going on; quite interesting. Most interesting that MB referenced Aaron's article - I had always thought that those two were in cahoots
23:39:57 [AaronSw]
Heh heh heh.
23:40:06 [AaronSw]
The fragments article?
23:40:22 [AaronSw]
I worked very hard to restrain myself from bringing that up.
23:40:35 [sbp]
heh, heh
23:42:13 [AaronSw]
ugh, Entourage has gotten sort of slow -- I wonder why.
23:42:36 [Morbus]
heh, heh.
23:43:43 [AaronSw]
actually, maybe it's my IMAP server that's getting slow
23:47:07 [AaronSw]
deltab, can you think of any reason for that?