00:00:50 quiet in here without the M thing 00:01:26 Heh. 00:02:00 Can't say I mind. It makes me feel productive. 00:02:14 it makes me feel bored 00:02:19 It doesn't like either. 00:02:33 well, get a better XSLT engine, then 00:02:46 what error message do you get? 00:03:19 xmlXPathRunEval: parameter error 00:03:19 xmlXPathEval: evaluation failed 00:03:29 $time isn't defined 00:03:44 I was wondering where that was set 00:03:56 I'm pretty sure it is. works fine. 00:04:12 oh, do I need to do a variable thingy? 00:04:21 try it without 00:04:29 without what? 00:04:36 doesn't that just insert the value of the element time? 00:04:53 Ah, so I need: 00:04:53 why not just use . instead of $time? 00:05:04 ugh 00:05:06 or time 00:05:16 i didn't know i could do that. 00:05:19 it's pretty difficult to debug without seeing the code 00:06:13 AaronSw: what are you matching against? 00:06:39 link 00:07:28 can you post the code online? 00:08:57 grep for archiveURL 00:09:27 what is "time" meant to be matching? 00:09:36 2001-12-16 20:51 00:09:44 aha! 00:10:04 what? 00:10:10 so you were trying to replace strings... by passing it an element? Different 00:10:26 Well you told me a variable wasn't working... 00:10:30 you have to put the text value of the element by passing it into a variable first 00:10:37 well, the variable isn't set 00:10:53 why? nodesets can be converted into strings 00:11:00 are you sure? 00:11:46 do you have soe sample input we can run it on? 00:11:54 http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath#function-string 00:12:23 [url omitted] 00:13:16 funny, it works for me 00:13:48 Odd. 00:14:06 ah, perhaps it doesn't 00:14:53 oh, hmm, it does sorta work 00:15:01 aha! 00:15:13 why omitted? 00:15:20 s/{archiveURL}/{$archiveURL}/ 00:15:32 omitted: dunno... 00:15:48 cool. now i just need to fix chumpster to serve the permalinks 00:16:29 at least the chump is in Python. phew 00:20:00 AaronSw: try using just time instead of $time 00:20:46 cool, still works 00:21:30 then you can drop the $time variable 00:21:54 wow, Alexa just helped me out on three pages in a row 00:22:01 yep, done 00:22:09 one had moved to a "pay service", so I just ran it through Alexa :-) 00:22:22 heh. 00:25:24 hmm, is "bookmark" an appropriate type for a permalink? 00:25:54 probably not; as I recall, "bookmark" is an entry point 00:26:22 isn't that what a permalink is? 00:26:42 [[[ 00:26:43 Bookmark 00:26:43 Refers to a bookmark. A bookmark is a link to a key entry point within an extended document. The title attribute may be used, for example, to label the bookmark. Note that several bookmarks may be defined in each document. 00:26:47 ]]] - http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/types#type-links 00:27:12 does it constitute an "extended document"? 00:27:14 exactly 00:27:31 I presume so 00:28:09 cross your fingers... 00:28:14 chumpster has quit (Remote closed the connection) 00:28:28 hooray! chumpster's gone 00:28:39 it will be back... maybe 00:34:04 chumpster (~chumpster@xcdfddb76.ip.ggn.net) has joined #swhack 00:34:12 chumpster has quit (Remote closed the connection) 00:34:27 chumpster (~chumpster@xcdfddb76.ip.ggn.net) has joined #swhack 00:35:37 * AaronSw claims partial victory -- goes home 00:35:43 well to eat dinner 00:35:49 heh, heh, heh 00:36:19 bbl 00:37:39 Hmm... wouldn't it be cool if you could have a link to some RDF address book data about someone, and just cram it into your email program? 00:37:46 cf. http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Business 00:39:11 Aah, my AB will take text-separated values. I'm sure I could get CWM to do something like that 00:42:33 sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) 00:50:05 sbp (~sean@m982-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 00:54:35 chumpster has quit (Remote closed the connection) 00:54:45 chumpster (~chumpster@xcdfddb76.ip.ggn.net) has joined #swhack 00:54:45 chumpster has quit (Remote closed the connection) 00:54:52 that didn't sounds good 00:57:11 sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) 00:57:31 sbp (~sean@m31-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 00:57:54 chumpster (~chumpster@xcdfddb76.ip.ggn.net) has joined #swhack 00:58:09 chumpster has quit (Remote closed the connection) 00:58:22 chumpster (~chumpster@xcdfddb76.ip.ggn.net) has joined #swhack 00:58:25 ok, looks like we have permalinks! 01:03:30 good 01:03:44 [[[ 01:03:45 Error: 01:03:45 could not connect to "127.0.0.1:82" (opening connection) 01:03:49 ]]] - http://blogspace.com/swhack/weblog/ 01:03:59 i know, i know! 01:04:04 ah, it fixed itself... 01:04:06 blame AmphetaDesk 01:04:12 yeah, it fixes itself 01:04:22 quick, blog something! 01:04:26 @ http://blogspace.com/swhack/weblog/permalink.patch 01:04:28 A: http://blogspace.com/swhack/weblog/permalink.patch from AaronSw 01:04:46 A:|Permalink Patch for Daily Chump 01:04:46 titled item A 01:05:19 A::By Aaron Swartz himself 01:05:20 commented item A 01:05:43 great 01:05:49 A::Now you can link to things on #swhack, safe in the knowledge that your permalink will stay persistent until the next version of the Daily Chump comes out, or Aaron fiddles with the XSLT again, whichever comes first. 01:05:50 commented item A 01:06:12 * AaronSw emails patch to edd 01:06:18 heh, way to send out "don't link to us!" vibes 01:06:45 Heh. 01:07:11 .google cool uris don't change 01:07:13 cool uris don't change: http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html 01:07:19 A::No, but really, link to us! It'll be fun and [cool|http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI]. 01:07:20 commented item A 01:08:06 lol: """Historical note: At the end of the 20th century when this was written, "cool" was an epithet of approval particularly among young, indicating trendiness, quality, or appropriateness.""" 01:08:28 Heh. 01:08:44 Oops, I just realized a bug in my patch 01:08:50 cool 01:09:07 * AaronSw delays email to Edd. 01:09:17 Hi Edd, have a bug! 01:10:00 Heh. The bug would cause all future archives not to actually work. :-) 01:10:15 to be working actually not? 01:10:15 It'd sorta take the perma out of permalink. 01:10:34 come as you be, leave as you are. 01:10:40 wouldn't that just nibble your biscuit 01:10:59 bbiab, lighting candles 01:11:05 have fun 01:15:30 thanks 01:15:37 AaronSw has changed the topic to: It doesn't hurt to be alert! 01:16:47 It doesn't help to eat some kelp 01:17:05 heh 01:17:48 Our mum was warning us of IRA agents and we blew her off and that's what she said. 01:22:06 chumpster has quit (Remote closed the connection) 01:22:17 chumpster (~chumpster@xcdfddb76.ip.ggn.net) has joined #swhack 01:30:25 sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m20-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com))) 01:30:33 SeanP (~sean@m20-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 01:33:15 Mark Bernstein: "Flash isn't bad, it's just different. Think of it as a distinct affordance -- a tool for doing things you wouldn't do otherwise." 01:37:58 SeanP is now known as sbp 01:38:16 tsk, I didn't even notice that 01:38:41 Bernstein really likes http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735710740/coolbooks02/ 01:38:57 "This thoughtful survey has evoked far too little discussion; it deserves to be the most widely-discussed book on Web style since Siegel's Killer Web Sites." 01:39:08 "The most challenging and thoughtful Web design book of 2001" 01:39:18 He could write the back-of-book blurbs all by himself! 01:39:30 is my site reviewed? 01:39:57 I think you'd fall into "HTML Minimalism" 01:41:04 it's like, Zen, dude 01:54:12 Heh heh heh: http://sfstories.com/index.shtml?32 01:54:16 Cute. 02:02:03 Nice article on Eastgate: http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/343/business/On_SiteP.shtml 02:02:24 "Four or five years ago, there was a sudden burst of enthusiasm for ''push'' technology on the Web, the idea that Internet surfers would rather watch streaming media - mini movies and video segments - than click on links. It was a flop. ''People saw the push stuff and said, `That's really cool, but I've got stuff I have to do. So I'm going to go back to clicking,''' Bernstein said." 02:03:11 BLURB:Quickies: Assorted Interesting Links 02:03:34 * AaronSw pokes chumpster 02:03:47 B: Quickies: Assorted Interesting Links from AaronSw 02:04:05 B::[Fresh Styles for Web Designers|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735710740/coolbooks02/], Bernstein calls it "The most challenging and thoughtful Web design book of 2001". 02:04:06 commented item B 02:04:57 B::[twenty-five cents and counting|http://sfstories.com/index.shtml?32]: Derek Powazek checks up on how his new book is selling in his home town. 02:04:58 commented item B 02:05:30 B::[Eastgate in the Boston Globe]: "Four or five years ago, there was a sudden burst of enthusiasm for ''push'' technology on the Web, the idea that Internet surfers would rather watch streaming media - mini movies and video segments - than click on links. It was a flop. ''People saw the push stuff and said, `That's really cool, but I've got stuff I have to do. So I'm going to go back to clicking,''' Bernstein said." 02:05:31 commented item B 02:06:32 chumpster has quit (Remote closed the connection) 02:06:41 url there should have been http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/343/business/On_SiteP.shtml 02:07:38 chumpster (~chumpster@xcdfddb76.ip.ggn.net) has joined #swhack 02:09:50 @ http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/personaltechnology/134378512_ptmac16.html 02:09:54 C: The Seattle Times: Personal Technology: Entourage X integrates e-mail, contacts, calendar from AaronSw 02:10:28 C:|Glenn Says Entourage X's Power is in the Links 02:10:30 titled item C 02:10:34 C::I agree totally. 02:10:36 commented item C 02:13:22 oh, datatypes suck 02:13:43 .beats 02:13:43 The time is @135 at the tone. 02:14:00 uh oh - this is be- is this turning in swhackdot? 02:14:24 Heh heh heh. 02:15:15 zoom 02:15:27 damned lag 02:16:23 I was typing that immediately after 020445Z BLURB:Quickies: Assorted Interesting Links 02:16:29 I assumed so. 02:16:40 Your lag is that bad? 02:16:44 well, that's some lag 02:16:48 sbp, what's this about datatypes? 02:17:12 well, some sort of packet loss/timeout interaction 02:17:44 someone should just sit down, and say "this is how it's going to be". The current range if discussions appear to me to be rather silly. Discussions for the point of having a big debate about datatypes, rather than actually resolving the problem 02:18:54 Hmm, that's an interesting point of view, but I don't think it's true. 02:18:59 "... resolving the problem"? 02:19:21 I think many of the datatypes proposals are interesting, if a bit hard to understand at first. 02:19:25 or was that it? 02:19:32 I think that was it. 02:19:54 Certainly some seem more likely to be accepted than others, but I don't think people are debating over pointless minutia. 02:20:12 deltab: add "They are" in front of discussions, perhaps that will help 02:20:38 ah 02:20:42 where is the summary of the datatype proposals? 02:20:56 .google pat hayes mental dump 02:20:57 pat hayes mental dump: http://www.fox.uwc.edu/student.services/studentlife/clubs.html 02:21:15 heh, that's not it 02:21:17 search the archives for it 02:21:38 I don't even know where to begin. What's the thing called? 02:21:48 I just told you 02:21:53 "mental dump" by "Pat Hayes" 02:22:01 .google "mental dump" by "Pat Hayes" 02:22:02 "mental dump" by "Pat Hayes": http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Nov/0295.html 02:22:15 that's it 02:22:22 thanks 02:22:45 Then there's the PL proposal which says literals are literals and operations upon them get to decide what format they take. 02:23:05 And DanC hates the P* proposals, and they have model theory bugs that seem difficult to resolve. 02:23:22 Wow, look at how many times Pat Stickler has replied to that thread. Eeek! 02:23:36 I don't really read any of the datatypes stuff, so don't take my word for much. 02:24:28 O.K. It's an interesting page... 02:25:07 "requires literals as subjects" isn't a CON! 02:25:13 PRO, PRO! 02:25:15 Heh heh. 02:26:23 I must say I think I like the PL proposal the best, since it basically says, "we don't need to deal with datatypes" 02:26:42 reference for the PL proposal? 02:26:55 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Dec/0003.html 02:26:59 thanks 02:27:13 It also has a very funny FAQ from DanC. 02:27:26 heh:- 02:27:27 [[[ 02:27:28 Q: er... when I write 10, is 10 a string or a number? 02:27:28 A: yes. ;-) 02:27:28 ]]] 02:27:31 Yeah. 02:27:53 [[[ 02:27:56 Q: but I thought strings and integers were disjoint; that's 02:27:56 what the XML Schema spec says. 02:27:56 A: hmm... so it does: 02:27:58 ]]] 02:29:33 yeah, I like that proposal too 02:29:39 Cool. 02:29:56 and it's pretty much what we're all doing :-) 02:30:16 Exactly. It's a very nice combination of meeting the requirements while not actually making anyone do any work. 02:31:46 heh, heh, heh. Perfect, in that case 02:31:58 Patrick Stickler doesn't like it though. 02:32:06 Why not? 02:32:36 I think because it doesn't support local datatyping. 02:34:12 So there's no way to tell whether I meant "0" to be an integer, decimal, string or boolean. 02:34:25 Does it ever matter? 02:35:25 I don't think so, but Mr. Stickler wants to make sure that information is unambigous. 02:35:58 'tis the Stickler way 02:37:15 It's amazing how few home-spun SW apps. there are 02:37:32 What's home-spun mean? 02:37:46 everyday stuff 02:37:58 non-commercial 02:38:25 Jena, CWN, Euler, SWIPT, PlexRDF sort of thing? 02:38:34 s/CWN/CWM/ 02:38:40 no, not APIs - I mean appplications, as in uses of the Semantic Web 02:39:07 Ah. Like RDFWeb? 02:39:22 s/no, not APIs - I mean appplications, as in uses of the Semantic Web/no, not APIs. I meant applications: as in uses of the Semantic Web/ 02:39:38 yes. And "The Simpsons in RDF" (the only use I've had for the SW) 02:40:17 That doesn't sound like a legitimate use to me... 02:40:33 Hmm... to re-thingy that sentence once more: "no, not APIs. I meant 'applications' as in 'uses of the Semantic Web'" 02:40:42 how is that not a legitamate use? 02:41:04 what is it with me and vowel swapping, lately? 02:41:06 What do you use it for? 02:41:25 I used it to generate the list of quotes. It would have taken me ages by hand 02:41:34 don't you remember? did you look at it? 02:41:48 Yeah... 02:42:04 I had a list of quotes, and the episode number. I wanted to put a page up with all the information about the show with that episode number, and the related quotes 02:42:13 No, I understand. 02:42:21 (just for the log) 02:42:22 I'm just trying to sort things out in my head. 02:43:28 I don't think the Semantic Web is very useful. (for the sake of argument) 02:43:44 I' 02:43:47 ugh 02:44:26 I'd find it difficult to argue on evidence, except for: * The Simpsons in RDF * The possibilities raised by EARL * The fact that CWM continually surprises me 02:44:45 I'm not saying it has no uses. 02:45:14 But, I think on its own, it's not very useful. 02:45:21 The original Web was similar, I'd think. 02:45:41 yep... that's what I've been thinking about 02:46:25 If you only have one website, the cost of distributing a web browser is probably equal to that of some proprietary client. 02:46:48 it's the n^2 problem 02:47:25 n^2 isn't a problem, it's a feature 02:47:28 I'm aware of all that... I just think that progress is staggeringly slow, and with few benefits 02:47:40 how so? 02:48:07 n^2 says that networks grow extraordinarily fast. How is that a problem? 02:48:30 I think the problem might be that the Semantic Web isn't n^2... 02:48:51 I'm not sure that I follow 02:49:02 which part? 02:49:09 all of it 02:49:23 n^2 says that the network's value grows at the square of the number of nodes. 02:49:40 That's a really cool thing -- everytime someone joins the network, it gets more valuable for everyone. 02:49:54 no, I'm not thinking of it in terms of networking 02:50:05 I'm thinking in terms of deploying software to read data 02:50:11 The Web had this property: if everyone had a web browser already, it was much cheaper for you to make content for web browsers, since you could forget about the client side. 02:50:18 when you have n^2 formats, things feck up pretty quickly 02:50:27 Oh, I see what you mean. 02:50:37 and I see what you mean now... 02:50:57 the format problem is solved by having a format that's a superset of all of them, right? 02:51:04 but the early Web had the problem that is *wasn't* cheaper to publish in HTML and HTTP 02:51:25 the format problem is not solved by a universal format, but by universal tools for that format 02:51:38 I disagree strongly. 02:51:39 the proliferation of browsers made the Web 02:51:46 To start with, the costs were equal, no? 02:52:12 no. More people had word than WorldWideWeb 02:52:27 Oh, I wasn't thinking of Word... 02:52:34 and even if the cost were equal, it's still not cheaper. There's no advantage 02:52:41 I was thinking of apps, yeah, you're right... 02:53:05 I'm still not 100% sure how the Web overcame the problem 02:53:21 * AaronSw thinks out loud: 02:53:26 The Web had features: 02:53:28 - hypertext 02:53:29 at CERN, they replaced the phone-book system with HTML/HTTP, but what about elsewhere? 02:53:35 - URIs 02:53:44 Yeah, the phonebook was why I was thinking of apps and not documents. 02:54:28 sorry... carry on with the features :-) 02:54:46 I think that's it, really. 02:54:50 I think it was the URIs that did it. 02:54:52 heh, heh, heh 02:54:56 yeah 02:55:03 well, HTTP to some extent too 02:55:18 HTTP was just a slimmer version of FTP for most purposes. 02:55:53 but I still don't know how it got over the main barrier: getting out of the service/client loop. Perhaps it was just luck? 02:56:23 I think that's pretty obvious. 02:56:36 and with the Semantic Web, it's much more difficult. There's no "click a link, and another document appears!" 02:56:39 "The killer app for the Web was whatever got you hooked." 02:57:07 There were people like us who built things for the Web because we were idealists 02:57:17 and then there were people who downloaded the client software to see our stuff. 02:57:41 heh, that's true. But I'm wondering if there are enough idealists and projects for the SW 02:57:43 The idealists pushed the bobsled until things hit critical mass. 02:58:02 The real question is whether there's a bobsled for the idealists to push. 02:58:18 If I put my data up in RDF, what are you going to download to see it with? 02:58:27 CWM 02:58:36 s/see/process/ 02:58:43 But that's the point. 02:58:55 in fact, I already have it installed, so it'll save me the bother 02:58:59 If the only thing to do with RDF data is to process it, won't it be limited to idealists who want to process RDF data? 02:59:24 Hmm... good point 02:59:52 This is why I think the Plex is cool: it still has these network effects. 02:59:54 Is "sed" limited to idealists who want to process text data? 03:00:11 No, because sed was created after text data was the standard. 03:00:20 Not to make it the standard. 03:00:23 Plex will be kick-ass if/when it works 03:00:43 yeah, bad analogy 03:01:33 but I meant that I can still use CWM for some things, so it must be at-least-a-little-bit useful 03:02:05 yeah, but it's not going to drive RDF adoption like the Web browser did. 03:02:19 true 03:03:48 So what's RDF's use case? 03:03:57 Solving the formats problem, I think. 03:04:40 yeah, but I don't deal with data exchange much, and I'll bet that a lot of people feel the same way. Does that mean that RDF will be something with a niche market? 03:05:11 You don't deal with data exchange much?! 03:05:15 OTOH, TSIR gives me hope 03:05:24 TSIR? 03:05:50 logster, grep -i T.*?S.*?I.*?R 03:06:26 I'm logging. I found 12078 answers for 'T.*?S.*?I.*?R' (showing 0...4) 03:06:27 0) 2001-12-17 03:05:50 logster, grep -i T.*?S.*?I.*?R 03:06:28 1) 2001-12-17 03:05:24 TSIR? 03:06:29 2) 2001-12-17 03:05:15 OTOH, TSIR gives me hope 03:06:30 3) 2001-12-17 03:04:40 yeah, but I don't deal with data exchange much, and I'll bet that a lot of people feel the same way. Does that mean that RDF will be something with a niche market? 03:06:31 4) 2001-12-17 03:02:05 yeah, but it's not going to drive RDF adoption like the Web browser did. 03:06:34 that'll match a lot 03:06:34 .acronym tsir 03:06:34 tsir: Test Ship Integration Requirement 03:06:37 Pff... 03:06:41 The Simpsons in RDF 03:06:45 Ah. 03:06:59 That's just a simple database problem. 03:07:04 yep 03:07:24 but if someone had already published that data in RDF, it would have been a pretty quick thing to do 03:07:35 Yep. 03:07:45 That's the data exchange proposition, I think. 03:07:55 Querying a large store of data -- that's the Plex proposition too. 03:08:17 but data is pretty boring, don't you reckon? Documentation is where it's at 03:08:29 And who wants a data model for documentation? 03:08:48 I don't think data is boring. 03:09:04 reminder: this is coming from someone who currently generates his homepage from RDF 03:09:23 And your homepage is documentation. 03:09:32 well, there are bits of data 03:09:51 it's about a 30:70 mix, probably (based on line count) 03:09:51 Data is everywhere. Why do you think Ellison was worth almost as much as Microsoft? 03:10:07 s/Microsoft/Gates/ 03:10:30 but it's kinda boring. Really, what important data is out there? Think of some use cases for RDF for me :-) 03:10:39 Heh. 03:10:44 Organizing your email. 03:10:58 Finding people to come visit you. 03:11:14 Looking for jobs, universities, etc. 03:11:22 Finding the cheapest price for stuff. 03:11:46 Finding out when the Simpsons will be on. 03:12:00 Getting articles/books/+ you like. 03:12:22 A lot of stuff is data. 03:12:36 keep going - I was enjoying that :-) 03:12:41 Heh. 03:13:00 It's hard because almost everything is an answer! 03:13:53 Anything you've ever asked xena is a data question. 03:14:31 Let me see if I can refactor that: 03:14:33 Can I trust X? 03:14:36 Is X important? 03:14:50 Find me X 03:18:38 Well, I think I'm going to go watch Memento now... 03:18:44