00:04:55 Morbus (~Morbus@s93.terminal3.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack 00:20:08 @ http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/nomic.htm 00:20:14 A: Peter Suber, Nomic from AaronSw 00:20:27 A::Awesome game, and an AmphetaDesk user. 00:20:28 commented item A 00:20:34 Really? That's pretty cool. 00:20:40 A::We have to play this game sometime. 00:20:41 commented item A 00:20:46 A::Morbus actually tried to start a bulletin board game based on this once (link forthcoming). 00:20:48 commented item A 00:20:51 yeah, seriously. i was super suprised. 00:21:03 i had it in my bookmarks for a super long time, and then he just came outta the blue with ampheta suggsetions. 00:21:08 deltab, sbp and us need to play sometime 00:21:09 i was like "hey! you're the Nomic guy!" 00:21:20 yeah, i think we'd do a good one. better than this stupid message board one. 00:21:22 lemme find the lin,. 00:21:22 Heh, he's done a lot of other cool stuff. 00:22:07 yaeh, he has. 00:22:43 A::link via deltab in the [RDFIG chump|http://rdfig.xmlhack.com/]. 00:22:43 commented item A 00:22:59 k, gotta run 00:23:09 fine! 00:25:41 A::Ah, here's that [Message Board Nomic|http://www.scattergirl.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000047.html] that failed miserably. 00:25:43 commented item A 00:26:33 * sbp sends a huge message to WAI ER; doesn't bother to check grammar or spelling. Nice and raw :-) 00:26:44 aaaaah, email 00:27:43 hey sbpster. 00:27:47 Hi there 00:27:55 first rule of Nomic games: don't play them 00:28:00 have you played them? 00:28:09 I repeat: first rule of Nomic games: don't play them 00:29:03 * Morbus is currently listening to 'The Kult Konnection' on My Life With The Thrill Kill Kult's album 'The Reincarnation of Luna'. 00:29:03 !itunes 00:30:15 cool, it's huge: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-er-ig/2001Dec/0038 00:31:29 hey, sbpster, do you play games? 00:44:46 yes, I do 00:45:15 i think i've finally found the game system to use for the web based game i want to build. 00:45:23 and it has a good underground following, so they'll be an instant audience. 00:46:15 pointer? 00:46:44 fudgerpg.com 00:47:00 its a 96 page pdf file, of which we'd use about 30 pages of it. its designed to be messed up and tweaked. 00:47:09 want me to go nuts on why i think this is "it"? 00:48:30 yes, please do 00:48:34 mmkay. 00:48:46 the game i had in mine is really just an open source combat system. 00:49:06 think mortal kombat and street fighter a zillion fold, with moves, characters, arena's, and so forth creatable and addable by anyone. 00:49:25 there'd also be an interesting little twist to get other people involved, but i'll talk about tht privately. 00:49:37 anyways, why this fudge thing works is because its really pluginable., 00:49:48 there's no races or classes, but rather gifts, faults, skills, and so on. 00:50:09 you create a character by taking these little individual features and adding them to your templaet. 00:50:29 of course, we'd have character templates, that would be sample choices, based on the common fighter, mage, theif sort of ideals,. 00:50:37 the other thing that's neat is there's no real leveling. 00:50:52 rather, your skills, gifts, and faults are rated on a seven word scale, from terrible to superb. 00:51:24 so, (and here's where we get into our own rules), when players earn experience, they can buy into their existing skills to try to raise their rating to the next level (each level 1.5 times more expensive than the last). 00:51:34 or they can buy new skills that always start out at middle-1. 00:51:52 most of the rest of the pdf deals with combat and role playing encounters. 00:52:11 rpencounters would be really ignored in this combat simulation game, and the combat would be overhauled to be more internety. 00:52:35 but because of this idea of skills, gifts, and faults, you can also create attacks, counter attacks, combo's, and defenses, all in the same pluginable sort of way. 00:52:41 allowing people to further customize their character. 00:52:48 ultimatley, the idea of this is that its a joke. 00:52:56 a 1st level smurf should be able to beat a 1st level godzilla. 00:53:13 in the old rule system i designed, with a sample combat app coded, this worked exactly as intended. 00:53:21 Ooh, this sounds... well... it sounds... oh, just read it: "In a Bunnies game, where the player characters are rabbits, [...]" - http://fudgerpg.com/fudge/FudgeNutshell.pdf 00:53:24 i've yet to start actually coding a fudge/gift sort of thing. 00:53:28 right exactly! 00:53:40 as a rough example, a rabbut would be plaable in this game. 00:53:49 which by the way, is called severe beating (.com of which i own). 00:53:57 neat 00:54:11 so a rabbit, for instance, could win against godzilla, because of it's small size (so its harder to hit), plus perhaps it has the Gift of Burrow, where he can hide from godzilla. 00:54:28 and on higher levels, he could buy a Gift of Reproducible, so that Godzilla could keep killing the bitch, but he'd keep replicating. 00:54:39 plus the gift of multiplications; can confuse Gozilla! Won't know which one to get 00:54:46 certain gifts would be race specific (like replicating would be only for rabbits, etc.) 00:54:47 s/multiplications/multiplication/ 00:54:57 exactly, which would make the rabbit even harder to hit. 00:55:10 the rabbit, being very dodgeful, would be easy as fuck to hit godzilla, cos he's huge 00:55:27 so the battle would be insanely long, but a rabbit could kill godzilla just out of sheer survival in dodge skills. 00:55:55 so, long story short, 00:56:10 i'm probably going to start writing a dev diary for gamegrene, about all my thoughts on this, and start hammering out the xml, and crap. 00:57:35 sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m530-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com))) 00:57:50 sbp (~sean@m530-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 00:58:26 sorry, got disconnected... 00:58:29 * sbp reads logs 00:58:38 uh, you didn't miss anything 00:58:51 am I boring you, GabeW? 00:58:52 ;) 00:59:12 no no 00:59:46 i just didn't think he missed anyhthing - but I guess if he was idle for 3 minutes, he'd been gone longer than just when the disconnect notice came up 01:00:15 yep... I think I missed a single line 01:00:32 Morbus: you never bore me 01:00:53 oh? jeez, i'm honored, i think ;) 01:06:47 I didn't mean to puff you up that much 01:06:52 * GabeW is thinking of a mild insult 01:07:01 oreilly and apple already did that - don't worry ;) 01:07:19 in that case, I need to think of a bigger insult ;-) 01:07:44 * GabeW really appreciates the Reggae channel on ATT Digital Cable .. 01:07:48 just say "Morbus, you suck", and be done with it 01:07:59 no! 01:08:02 i'm too frail for that! 01:08:07 Hmm... 01:08:12 GabeW has changed the topic to: Deflate Morbus' ego here 01:08:19 How about: "Morbus, you suck a little bit" 01:08:33 GabeW has changed the topic to: Morbus sucks somewhat 01:09:23 i'm cracking! 01:09:23 ooh. mt 1.3 is out! 01:09:23 great, something else to do! 01:09:39 ah, "somewhat": delectable 01:19:17 GabeW has quit ("Client Exiting") 01:30:09 wendyout (~wendy@sttldslgw16poolB194.sttl.uswest.net) has joined #swhack 01:30:32 wendyout is now known as wendy 01:31:12 sbp - i've been unable to connect to irc.w3.org - know if others are having problems? 01:31:22 i got your comments on my slides from nick's log. thanks! 01:31:28 slides are still pretty rough. 01:32:17 * sbp waves to wendy neé wendyout 01:32:24 no problem 01:32:35 As for irc.w3.org, there does seem to be a problem :-) 01:32:39 same with dev.w3.org 01:33:03 the main site is alright, though 01:33:14 although, i can't save updated slides to it. argh. 01:33:30 hmm 01:36:15 Did you get my humungoid rant to w3c-wai-er-ig yet? 01:36:26 who? 01:36:31 not you 01:37:03 although you're free to answer :-) 01:37:26 i saw it, but I haven't read it yet. 01:37:42 Although, from a brief skim it seems you've solved all the issues i'm about to raise in my talk tomorrow. :) 01:37:53 heh, heh, heh; hope so 01:38:22 you can just bluff them 01:38:39 who is this talk to, anyway? What's it a part of/about? 01:38:54 the w3c team. 01:38:57 it a project review. 01:39:11 cool 01:39:18 yes, it should be. 01:39:26 :-) 01:39:30 I hope so anyway. 01:39:37 you sound nervous 01:39:49 I am. I'm still learning so much of this stuff. 01:39:58 But, making me teach others about it, is good. 01:40:07 It definitely raises awareness amongst the team, which is good. 01:40:17 yes, that is certainly a good factor... 01:50:06 bah. my tummy hurts. 02:01:00 sbp - how is your EARL python API progressing? 02:05:31 whopee! My cool Google swag came. 02:05:35 mucho thanks to jill 02:06:23 and i got a TiBook tote and tilt 02:06:59 ok, gonna install it now.. bbiab 02:13:36 EARL Python API - 'twould be nice to think of some techniques for making querying EARL faster, thinking about DanBri's node querything stuff. Optimization isn't particularly important though, and any decent RDF API will do what we need 02:14:07 *cough* RDFAPI 02:18:53 Got a touch of the Alzofratz there, Aaron? 02:18:57 sbp, have you looked into redfoot much? 02:19:17 * em returns from meetings lasting far too long 02:19:19 em speaks! you're not allowed to speak until you register that telecon, mister 02:19:34 * em goes back to email 02:19:42 ;-) 02:22:28 * em waits for web for relavant stats .... hums to himself an odd tune 02:23:50 Morbus has quit ("http://www.disobey.com/") 02:24:24 Redfoot: no, I must sadly admit that I haven't... too engrossed in CWM and PlexRDF :-) 02:25:24 I think we definitely should combine Sparta and PlexRDF 02:29:03 arrrg.... somethign seems a bit odd with w3c.org machines at the moment 02:29:13 yes, we were noticing that earlier 02:29:43 AaronSw, sbp... can you do me a favor and relay a message to FrankM? 02:29:52 yep 02:29:56 RDF Primer teleconference logistics 02:30:02 Zakim Conference bridge 02:31:00 617.761.6200 passcode 7337 for 2001-12-13, 12:00 - 1:00 pm EST for RDF Primer discussion 02:31:23 agenda to follow 02:31:48 (insert appropriate cursing and appologies for network failure here) 02:31:54 How many people expected? 02:32:10 AaronSw, sbp, FrankM and me 02:32:10 er... and will I be dialled on? :-) 02:32:23 sent 02:32:24 if you would like, i'll conference you in 02:32:27 thanks AaronSw 02:32:28 ah, O.K. 02:33:27 err... ok to talk a bit about RDF primer here? not sure if this is crashing on channel or not... 02:33:42 nope, jsut fine 02:33:43 err just 02:33:48 but you're being logged to web 02:33:49 this channel has one rule: nothing is off-topic :-) 02:33:58 * em appologies for leaving bits o' metadata everywhere 02:34:04 yeah 02:34:18 'tis life 02:34:23 the machines will have to cope 02:34:37 nothing off topic :) ok... remind me to debate the fine points of space-time modelling perspective/philosophy sometime 02:34:43 but until then.... 02:34:47 rdf primer 02:35:06 sbp, i like you suggestion re spliting these up into seperate pieces 02:35:09 * sbp was (still is) into Astrophysics; do yer worst 02:35:20 * AaronSw wonders if he should start selling HTTPAds on the swhack weblog 02:35:57 * em perspective is in cs/geography/anthopology interactions.... interesting to compare notes sometime 02:36:31 Yes, m12n of the primer is something that seems to be natural to me. It's obvious that you can't modularize as much as would be optimal, but I still think modularizing as much as possible would be beneficial 02:36:32 lack of resources keeping us from doing this.. 02:36:43 and laziness 02:37:07 not sure if this will be addressed with you and frank (and in some part AaronSw.. not sure how much i can get him to commit) 02:37:34 laziness... perhaps i'm guilty of this as well... other fires have come up, and I have to pick my battles 02:37:54 point is, i'm very much welcoming help here as i'm a bit alone on this. 02:37:56 well, when I get the inspiration to write, then I write freely... it's just sitting down and thinking, ah, I must do that right now. There's always something for me to do, but whimsy usually wins over common sense 02:38:17 Hmm... it's strange; how many people were on the initial call? Have they all dropped out? 02:38:27 pick battles: very much so 02:38:34 sbp, you need to learn directed procrastination 02:38:40 6 people on original call.. very fe have produced 02:38:51 err... few 02:39:20 deliverables were all over the map, i'd like to regroup and reassess 02:39:27 procastrination is a part of agoraphobia, strangely enough. Another tidbit of metadata for y'all there... 02:39:48 err structured procrastination 02:39:50 * em notes this and tucks this into his 'process later' pile 02:40:00 hmm, i thought it was a part of life 02:40:07 My only action item was: light ontologies! Write, write, write... Whoopsy 02:40:20 life: yeah, but it's much more advanced in agoraphobics 02:40:44 light ontolgies... yes, less is more 02:40:46 link: http://www-csli.stanford.edu/%7Ejohn/procrastination.html 02:41:45 AaronSw, sbp... looking for suggestions for realisitc primer objectives... I still want to get the 'how do i create a schema in an afternoon' primer out the door 02:42:02 ooh, I was just about to suggest something on that order 02:42:21 Do you remember the person who took notes when they created their first schema? 02:42:23 * em thinks structured procrastination is better than unstructured procrastination 02:42:37 sbp, yes and no 02:42:41 Also, DanC has some notes on his homepage... let me retrieve and spew them into the #swhack stream 02:43:01 [[[ 02:43:02 RDF primer ideas: 02:43:02 things versus their names 02:43:02 hmm... should all naming properties descend from rdfs:label? how about dc:title, dc:identifier? log:uri? 02:43:02 naming conventions: in addition to Class vs. property... what part of speech? isVersionOf versus version vs. hasVersion 02:43:02 comments: use full sentences! don't say "the size of the object". say "for size(X, Y) read: the size of X is Y." 02:43:04 i was there for RDF schema... not sure i'd recommend the process 02:43:07 ]]] - http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/ 02:43:33 Hmm. 02:43:40 hmm.. not sure this helps 02:44:12 was thinking more of something the dc usage board is grappling with... rules for describing 'words' 02:44:22 the problem is that you (as SVL) are going to have to set out a realistic audience for the RDF Primer, IMO. You can't have it addressing everyone, you're ust going to have to say, "oh, well, this group and this other group", or it's going to be eclectic 02:44:32 GabeW (~gwachob@12.236.92.153) has joined #swhack 02:44:40 is this an 'isa' thing, or a 'hasa' thing... if 'isa' go to blah, if 'hasa' goto foo 02:45:12 I'd personally like it to be more of an alms-basket of information. The Hints and Tips approach - except more like, "here are 700 hints and tips aranged into essaylets" 02:45:22 s/aranged/arranged/ 02:45:28 One of the big problems em has I think is that the Primer prose is sorta going to be the spec. 02:45:34 I mean, I'm not going to point anyone to the model theory. 02:45:50 heh, heh, heh 02:45:51 are we talkign about n3? 02:46:00 No, the RDF Primer. 02:46:05 oh 02:46:36 I mean, I think the MT is great and Pat Hayes did an absolutely wonderful job. 02:46:53 But it confuses folks who aren't from that background. 02:46:56 no to eclectic... a primer's success is directly proportionate to the clarity of the intended audienc 02:46:58 But when someone asks me about RDF, I still fill out a prescription for them - choosing the artciles that are most suited (AFAICT) to them. I don't think the RDF Primer is ever going to be something for which I can say, "here, this is your definitive guide". But I do want it to be on almost every list 02:47:02 And most of the RDF target market isn't. 02:47:18 good point, sbp 02:47:34 eclectic: well, fair enough :-) 02:49:28 But people want the tough questions answered. Should I use lists a la first/rest/first/reast, or daml:collection? How do I assert and reify? How is label different to title? Should I use terms from other people's namespaces, or import and rename? Hash or slash? Tips like "a name is not a person" are *very* valuable too 02:50:10 my (personal) intented audience is the person that has heard a bit about RDF (wants to know more), and is interested in learning about how to create a schema and corresponding instance data in an afternoon... what are the rules, and recipes we can provide to allow people to create interoperable XML 02:50:17 The whole thing about RDF is getting people to think about the models that they're creating. And very often, there isn't one right or wrong way about modelling stuff... but there are better and worse ways 02:50:18 * em reads sbp point. 02:50:25 * sbp reads em's point 02:51:23 Heh, at the moment, I'd recommend reading the RDF Schema specification for that :-) It was funny, I'd skimmed it a couple of times and though "Hmm...", but when I read it, it was just simple stuff. Really simple 02:51:30 * AaronSw reads both points 02:51:57 The next weekend, I read the DAML specification, or rather, the walkthrough. The DAML walkthrough is really great, but you have to read about RDFS first 02:52:34 RDFS is long simple stuff. 02:52:47 And nothing can beat doing. But then, many people reading the primer will fit into either the "interested", or "looking at this for a specific goal" critera 02:53:01 modelling stuff... tough in general... i think we should recognize this up front and acknowledge this. Then provide guidences on some of the stuff we know how to do... RDFS is very simple. We'd go a long way in RDF adoption sby simply explaining this. 02:53:29 The other day I got an email from a fellow who wanted to add RDF to his categorized information on cropdusting. He had some questions which I think are good goals for the Primer. 02:53:35 long: well, it is a bit verbose. All you need to tell people is "there are some things called properties, some things called classes, here are some examples". A huge problem is the serialization of the examples... graphs would be better 02:53:50 namely: why should I do this? how do I do this? who can help me do this? 02:54:07 yeah, there's never any point in overcomplicating things. Specification are great for doing that 02:54:30 Sometimes, you just can't substitute community experience 02:54:36 * em gets messages from cropdusters, pigfarmers, florists, etc... similar problems/patterns in almost all of these emails 02:55:05 * em reads AaronSw's point and agrees 02:55:11 * sbp sends messages to these kind of people, telling them that if they have a problem, RDF is the answer... :-) 02:55:38 I'm clearly shorting the fellow quite a bit to make the point, but i think the primer should answer these questions with a minimum of hype 02:55:54 em to sbp... can you help me solve world hunger? ... sbp to em... RDF is the answer! 02:56:03 :-) 02:56:07 * em thinks XML has already marketed this position 02:56:10 sbp solved it with cwm one day 02:56:14 he just fed everything into it 02:56:16 yes, that's true 02:56:37 xml solves world hunger but RDF provides the cute cartoon characters to go along with it. 02:57:02 * em glad to see sbp's use of rdf icons on his pages :) 02:57:06 sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m35-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com))) 02:57:15 err... or maybe not 02:57:21 sbp (~sean@m35-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 02:57:31 Why's that? 02:57:47 * sbp catches up 02:57:59 sbp, you know infomesh.net has been coming soon for several years now. ;-) 02:58:00 * em trying to be cute wrt sbp leaving.. disregard 02:58:09 heh 02:58:27 logos: yeah, well, only on a couple of pages at the moment 02:58:41 I should put http://infomesh.net/2001/05/sw/ into my .sig, really 02:58:44 * em notes that w3c.org seems to be back up... quickly sends 60 messsages piled up 02:58:52 coming coon: well, it's all relative :-) 02:58:53 uh oh 02:59:14 heh, so whilst em crashes his SMTP server... 02:59:25 :) 02:59:32 * AaronSw dodges email barrage 02:59:53 oh, em, that reminds me: why is there no logo with "Semantic Web" on it? 03:00:27 * AaronSw edits logo to read "RDF Procrastinator" 03:00:34 heh, heh, heh 03:00:50 people that were working on RDF logo are also thinking abuot this... Semantic Web is a bit more difficult to iconify 03:01:04 * em would be happy with a description first! 03:01:06 It's a big web with a semantic trapped in it 03:01:48 The nice thing about the Semantic Web meme is that it makes it easy to explain my project to semwebbers 03:02:03 Thanks to sbp, I now just say I'm developing the Semantic Internet. 03:02:15 funny how most people who talk about the Semantic Web haven't got a clue about the higher principles. Bit annoying, sometimes 03:02:21 yeah... its to the non-semwebber people i'm worried about :) 03:02:36 Semantic Internet: heh, that *was* a good one, wasn't it? :-) 03:02:44 It really was. 03:02:59 I hope to use it at WWW10 devday 03:03:04 which i'm signed up for, right em? 03:03:18 * GabeW is perusing google to see when his first usenet post was 03:03:28 err... www2002 yes (but only if you dont use that phrase) 03:03:29 GabeW is not the first ;) 03:03:35 heh, heh, heh 03:03:49 I can't say Semantic Internet? Aww, there goes my whole presentation. 03:04:05 27 Sep 1990 03:04:18 pointer, Gabe? 03:04:53 embarrassing - I was asking about a new Huey Lewis and the News album 03:04:53 eheh 03:05:01 ooh ooh 03:05:03 12 Sep 1990 03:05:08 We found DanC's old utexas email address 03:05:21 * em thinks that dates GabeW on several levels :) 03:05:49 Oooh, "....Name the song title and performer for all three and win a million bucks..." 03:06:31 * em notes its bob marley 03:06:59 the problem is, anyone can get them all now using Google, or lyricsearch 03:07:04 .google "RDF Primer" 03:07:05 "RDF Primer": http://www.w3.org/2001/09/rdfprimer/meetingnotes-20010927 03:07:11 * em thinks this actually mite have been a remake ... hmmm... 03:07:24 ek! 03:07:35 * em thinks google knows a bit too much 03:07:40 Heh, heh 03:07:50 Google knows all. 03:07:50 .google SWEO 03:07:50 SWEO: http://www.techrepair.com/sweo.html 03:07:54 Pff 03:07:58 whew... 03:08:01 .google SWEO "Semantic Web" 03:08:02 SWEO "Semantic Web": http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/EO 03:08:07 mwaha 03:08:09 doh! 03:08:17 :-) 03:08:31 why did you put the events list under it? 03:08:49 wendy has quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds) 03:09:04 ok, so if i launch this... who's willing to play? and by play i mean participate heavily... people are overcommitted as is.. how does this fit into the priority of things with this group? 03:09:29 * sbp is rather willing 03:09:32 * AaronSw too 03:09:39 So, it'll be me, you, Aaron... er... 03:09:44 :-) 03:09:55 DIdn't WL volunteer? 03:09:57 It's funny tho how my priorites have shifted after the Plex. 03:10:15 i've got a long list of people interested in lurking... very few willing to commit more important intellectual capitol 03:10:32 I'm not sure. I try to keep out of Working Group formation and destruction policies, because it's not something I want to mess about with :-) 03:10:47 Wl yes... but the patent thing scared him off a bit from w3c it seems 03:10:55 yes, it does 03:11:05 yeah, although he's been popping up occasionally 03:11:11 * AaronSw is willing to star in the "Semantic Web Sites that Work" video 03:11:25 DanBri is also rather good at this sort of SWEO stuff. Perhaps you can coax him 03:11:26 :-) 03:11:30 sbp, its not something *I* want to mess with; but i'm willing to sacrifice it for the greater SWEO good :) 03:11:46 danbri yes (but also overcommitted) 03:12:16 yeah, danbri seems to have fallen off the face of the earth because of the you-know-what 03:12:41 * em knows where danbri is at all times :) 03:13:05 you probably put one of those GPS taggers on him 03:13:06 Must be nice having the power to just wake up one day and think, "Hmm... I'll start a WG today, just for a laugh", though? :-) 03:13:16 I did that once. 03:13:21 We developed xKitchenSink 03:13:28 Not very pretty. 03:13:32 heh, heh. Yeah, with Jon Borden 03:13:52 .google XKitchenSink 03:13:53 XKitchenSink: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/200104/msg00001.html 03:14:07 * em thinks sbp:nice != em:nice 03:14:56 Aaron, I thought we agreed that that document was to be XKS Team confidential only? You're going to have to pay the price now 03:14:58 * em just now gets AaronSw's email... thanks 03:15:10 Uh oh. 03:15:27 :notEqualTo swn:converse daml:equivalentTo . 03:15:45 re SWEO... just for kicks... what are candidates? a fine-editorial-comb over SW tips comes to mind, others? 03:16:13 I really do like the "Semantic Web Sites that Work" suggestion 03:16:21 yes, me too 03:16:33 Oh, definitely. 03:16:40 Seriously, if you look at the work of WAI EO, they do some wonderful stuff. The little business card things are great 03:16:46 AaronSw, blogger direction comes to mind here 03:16:46 I think I should fly to, um, France to film it. 03:17:05 Blogger direction? 03:17:32 WAI EO, abslutely.... i give high marks to Judy 03:17:54 blogger... goes looking, perhaps has wrong term here 03:18:03 chumpster? 03:18:14 When I was chatting to TimBL on #rdfig the other day, all of a sudden I had this weird vision of data being just a URI away... it was weird; if the data is processable, and farily persistent, then you can create some pretty funky systems. Didn't bother writing it all down, although it did set me off converting my homepage to RDF, which I did (is now generated from and by N3!) 03:18:44 What do you mean? 03:18:50 * em notes sbp's recent post to this effect also came under this catagory 03:18:57 to me, http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/EO/talks screams out "make me from RDF, make me from RDF!" 03:19:06 post? 03:19:10 snoop! 03:19:16 heh, heh, heh 03:19:19 * em wonders where sbp found this 03:19:20 snoop? 03:20:10 Hmm... I honestly don't remember 03:20:45 * em notes to test in the future the average time it takes em to make something public and AaronSw, sbp, swgroup etc. to find it 03:21:02 heh, heh, heh. You'll need a good stopwatch 03:21:05 Well, like it might help if you didn't email us about it. ;-) 03:21:14 err.. did i? 03:21:19 did he? 03:21:24 Proabbly. 03:21:25 * em thinks that would be cheating 03:21:52 ahh... AaronSw.. it was blogspace (which screams to me as RDF) not blogger 03:21:59 ah 03:22:00 sorry for the confusion 03:22:29 Yeah, blogspace is very much rdfy 03:22:32 blogger coupled with mknot (?) looks really promising as a 03:22:41 'semantic web enabled site' 03:22:44 Hey, cool, ShelleyP uses the term blogspace on her blog 03:22:51 * em looks for mknot reference 03:23:18 * sbp greps email archives and IRC logs for talks reference 03:23:26 * em notes no dice... again has wrong name... keeps looking 03:24:00 mknot --- do you mean mnot's xpath->rss thing? or my html->rss thing? 03:24:28 nope.. mkdoc, http://mkdoc.com/ 03:24:46 * em needs to get some sleep 03:25:07 Aha. 03:25:46 lol: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/12/12/ED199963.DTL 03:26:10 * em remebers his name is indeed 'eric', considers this a small success and heads off for bed .. night all 03:26:29 Heh heh heh. 03:26:30 'nite 03:28:10 c'ya em 03:28:56 Heh heh heh: http://web.0sil8.com/episodes/megway/ 03:37:23 I wonder if that costs more or less than Segway? 03:37:32 Heh! 03:41:31 that picture is very san francisco 03:41:58 yeah 03:44:29 its wierd - sf is so distinct - I'm not sure if its the houses the streets, or what 03:45:53 Morbus (~Morbus@s108.terminal3.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack 03:52:26 Morbus has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 04:23:39 * sbp sends RDF verions of the talks page to em... 04:23:50 s/verions/versions/ 04:23:53 heh heh heh 04:24:00 * AaronSw reviews the rules of Nomic 04:24:17 the first rule is not to play Nomic! 04:24:25 That's not true. 04:24:34 The first rule is "All players must agree to any changes to the game." 04:24:40 And I did not agree to your rule! 04:26:21 That's not the first rule, at all 04:26:47 I disagree. deltab will have to come in as judge. 04:26:48 deltab? 04:27:47 How do I find out when I can see the Gemenids? 04:28:35 logster, grep 2-7 -i geminids 04:29:00 I'm logging. I found 1 answer for '-i geminids' (showing 2...1) 04:30:01 heh 04:30:08 logster, grep -i 2-7 geminids 04:30:14 I'm logging. I found 4 answers for 'geminids' (showing 2...4) 04:30:15 2) 2001-12-09 04:26:50 B: http://www.spaceweather.com/meteors/geminids/observingtips.html from AaronSw 04:30:16 3) 2001-12-09 04:26:43 @ http://www.spaceweather.com/meteors/geminids/observingtips.html 04:30:18 2 to 1 indeed... 04:32:35 .time 04:32:35 2001/12/13 04:34:08.84768 Universal 04:32:50 so 10PM tomorrow for us 04:35:44 so 24 hrs - 37 min 04:35:59 same for me 04:36:12 er, time to go, that is 04:36:24 well, a little less, perhaps 04:36:32 more like 23 hours 04:37:29 even less than that, now :-) 04:37:37 heh 04:38:52 * sbp waits for RDF Primer telecon agenda... excited 04:38:59 Heh. 04:39:16 @ http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast07dec_1.htm 04:39:21 B: http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast07dec_1.htm from AaronSw 04:39:34 B:|Geminids Start Tomorrow 04:39:35 titled item B 04:39:48 B::Tips on [observing the Geminids|http://comets.amsmeteors.org/meteors/showers/geminidobs.html]. 04:39:49 commented item B 04:40:06 B::and some [more detailed tips|http://www.spaceweather.com/meteors/geminids/observingtips.html] on where and when. 04:40:08 commented item B 04:41:36 B::cf. a [http://science.msfc.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast08dec_1.htm|related talk] 04:41:37 commented item B 04:58:40 sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds) 05:00:05 * AaronSw goes off to sleep 05:14:42 GabeW has quit ("Client Exiting") 07:33:05 tav` (tav@host217-34-83-190.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #swhack 14:34:55 Morbus (~Morbus@morbus.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack 14:35:51 i do not suck somewhat! 14:36:34 carter.openprojects.net has changed the topic to: Morbus does not suck somewhat 14:36:53 yay! 14:37:04 how are you? 14:37:09 ok 14:54:47 scipient (~scipient@66.169.64.154) has joined #swhack 14:54:54 hey scipient 14:54:59 hello 14:55:02 hey there. 14:55:10 just curious what this channel is about 14:56:27 Hi all 14:56:30 it's the offtopic channel 14:56:33 hi tansaku 14:57:22 hi AaronSw, you wanna see the latest phase of bot evolution in #Decent? 14:57:57 hey tansaku, 15:02:35 hey Morbus 15:21:33 hmm, now google is whacking my other server, it seems 15:22:29 heh, heh. 15:22:41 go complain to jillium ;) 15:22:42 actually it seems to be hitting them both at once 15:22:43 great 15:22:48 that's what i'm doing 15:22:50 :) 15:23:17 .google scooter-w3 15:23:17 scooter-w3: http://codoh.com/counter/logs/%20.html 15:28:05 aha! 15:28:07 i found the bug 15:28:15 what bug? 15:28:40 the reason for google to hammer my server 15:28:48 cos you're super cool? 15:28:56 haha 15:31:23 .time gmt 15:31:23 Dec. 13, 2001 3:32 pm GMT 15:31:30 .time jst 15:31:30 Dec. 14, 2001 12:33 am GMT+9 15:31:55 * tansaku is just phoning the uk 15:39:29 soo, what was the bug? 15:41:40 some other stupid site on the internet was generating all these crazy links to my site 15:42:17 heh. 15:42:38 it gets better tho 15:45:45 must i prompt you for everything? 15:45:49 go on, go on! 15:47:56 just a sec 15:48:08 i have to fix things first 15:48:41 sbp (~sean@m6-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 15:49:19 hey sbp 15:49:32 sbp, catch up on my crazy story in the logs 15:49:33 .time 15:49:33 2001/12/13 15:51:06.39636 Universal 15:49:35 Hi there 15:49:39 .time est 15:49:40 Dec. 13, 2001 10:51 am US/Eastern 15:49:53 hey sbpster 15:50:07 so it turns out that the other screwed up server... 15:50:18 ...happened to be another server of mine! 15:51:17 basically I'd get a page and then put up a list of links with all the pages that page linked to. 15:51:29 so google would recursively crawl the entire web thru my server 15:51:41 heh, heh, heh 15:51:43 but my link-generating algorithm was screwed up 15:51:50 heh.... 15:51:56 and returned really wrong links for a lot of stuff 15:52:09 so not only would it crawl the web, it'd crawl the wrong web 15:52:11 i've almost completed gamegrene.com using movabletype. it's nice. 15:52:29 but to make it even better, every page it got back from this web thing 15:52:34 has a link to my website 15:52:45 which is probably part of why my pagerank is so high! 16:00:53 sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds) 16:00:56 @ http://www.eff.org/ 16:01:55 C: EFF Homepage from AaronSw 16:02:04 C:|Support the EFF! 16:02:05 titled item C 16:02:08 C::Larry Lessing Wants You! 16:02:10 commented item C 16:02:18 heh! 16:02:23 C::+[Powered By Freedom|http://www.io.com/images/PoweredByFreedom.gif] 16:02:24 commented item C 16:03:10 i added his latest book to my wishlist :) 16:03:10 i saw :0 16:03:10 what the? 16:03:10 you looking at my wishlist? what the hell for? 16:03:10 16:03:57 i love perl. 16:04:02 sigh, i wish i could code perl at work all day. 16:04:57 heh 16:05:44 sbp (~sean@m670-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 16:05:49 sb 16:05:52 wb 16:05:54 Aaron, are you there? 16:05:55 ty 16:05:59 hi 16:06:06 i have another hour, right? 16:06:13 er... no, it's now 16:06:19 oh, shoot 16:06:21 and no one's dialled me up either :-) 16:06:25 heh, heh, heh 16:06:33 are you sure? 16:06:38 .time est 16:06:39 Dec. 13, 2001 11:08 am US/Eastern 16:06:40 sbp, rdf primer? 16:06:41 i thought it was at 12 16:06:48 rdf primer is in an hour 16:06:51 Oh, Hi em 16:06:53 see! 16:06:58 ah, phew. Worked it out wrong 16:07:03 :-) 16:07:06 * em but is encouraged by sbp's enthusiasm :) 16:07:11 lol 16:07:16 whew 16:07:21 i wanna go! 16:07:32 get your company to join the w3c 16:07:45 yeah, like mine *cough* *cough* 16:07:47 logster, grep -i w3c.*dial 16:08:16 I'm logging. I found 2 answers for 'w3c.*dial' 16:08:17 0) 2001-12-13 16:07:47 logster, grep -i w3c.*dial 16:08:18 1) 2001-09-25 23:47:44 Aha! W3C Teleconference Bridge Dialout dial in dial-in http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/dialout.php3 16:08:21 go as in attend, or go as in 'run away'.. each could be a valid response wrt the primer :) 16:08:21 sbp has quit (Client Quit) 16:08:23 sbp (~sean@m670-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 16:08:27 it depends on the size of the co, AaronSw. 16:08:35 what about a size of 1, em? 16:08:41 yeah, yah 16:09:06 * em been working on the individual participation model for some time... no worky yet 16:09:36 individuals can join as affiliates 16:09:49 * AaronSw wonders if this indiv. participation model includes funds for flying to France 16:09:54 Morbus, how much contact do you have working with content providers of rss 1.0 feeds? 16:10:03 alas no AaronSw... 16:10:41 AaronSw, whats the story with HGW? 16:10:42 * AaronSw loves hyperlinked Entourage 16:10:50 err.. HWG 16:10:55 em, about the only people i have contacts with would be AaronSw, funnily enough. 16:11:15 they got bought out, their AC rep left, and i'm afraid to talk to them about it 'cuz they'll probably stop paying w3c bills if i remind them 16:11:15 does mike krus produce 1.0? i thought he did somewhere. 16:11:33 yep, appreciate the honesty... thats what i thought 16:11:56 * em takes call 16:13:22 * AaronSw gets sbp's dialout thingy set up 16:13:29 Zakim status: http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/Zakim.html 16:14:45 * AaronSw wonders if we should take primer notes in here during the call 16:15:10 * AaronSw also wonders what #swhack is all about 16:15:23 err #swatch 16:18:09 * AaronSw would checkout the zakimbot but realizes he doesn't know the address of the CAS server. 16:18:53 wow. that's a first. 16:19:02 i use got an ugly win3.1 sorta crash with eudora. 16:19:14 you know, that ugly white box with the craptacular dos font ;) 16:19:33 ooh 16:21:56 * em still on phone... AaronSw wrt rdf primer notes... is this channel logged? 16:22:01 yes 16:22:10 and where is the url? 16:22:16 logster, bookmark 16:22:16 See http://blogspace.com/swhack/chatlogs/2001-12-13#T16-22-16 16:23:38 just out of curiousity... what's this channel for exactly? rdfig getting a bit big for you? :) 16:23:44 heh 16:24:10 it's really the offtopic channel 16:24:21 sbp and i were having interesting private chats and we wanted to log them 16:24:27 and then all these other people snuck in! 16:24:37 * em would like to see a 'weekly chump' rdfig message go to www-rdf-interest and invite people... a lot of people still dont know about the irc chat 16:24:49 yeah, that'd be a good idea 16:24:54 you should add that to annoChump 16:25:16 * sbp seconds the idea 16:25:21 gasp! 16:25:23 i'm a loser? 16:25:26 yep, its in the 'to-do' pile, which translatres into the 'i'll only get to do this on a long plance trip' pile 16:25:40 see! long plane trips are good for something 16:26:14 Morbus, any plans for writing a web-based version of amphetadesk? 16:26:22 yup, em, there is. 16:26:28 oh... pointers? 16:26:30 umm, isn't amphetadesk web-based? 16:26:30 user based too, so that it could be daemonized for an isp. 16:26:38 AaronSw, she means cgi-based, nif sorta thing 16:26:43 yep 16:26:44 ah 16:27:03 there's been talks about it, but nothing concrete. lemme pull up a url for ya. 16:27:12 * AaronSw sees Morbus shares his tendency to refer to people he hasn't met in the female 16:27:18 heh, heh, heh 16:28:06 * em thinks this tendency is not a bad one... 16:28:29 Morbus has a lot of tendencies 16:29:10 yeah, altho the people you're talking about tend to look at you a little funny 16:29:44 heh. i see em and think emily 16:29:52 well, about half of them, you'd suppose. It would be just the same the other way around 16:30:05 err... if i can handle being called 'maestro', i can handle being called 'she' 16:30:17 I think either "Emma", or "ElectroMagnetic" 16:30:20 heh heh heh 16:30:22 not really, since most folks online tend to be male 16:30:28 true 16:30:54 but for some reason i just can't stop myself from thinking rillian and atariboy are female 16:31:13 altho i'm getting better with rillian 16:31:32 perhaps i should just use zir and zie. 16:32:53 em: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=449629&group_id=21649&atid=372522 16:33:12 em: did we talk a long time ago about ampheta in rdfig? 16:33:17 i dont think i ever made the assoc. until now. 16:33:22 sheesh. 16:33:28 yeah, you did 16:33:54 em: that also contains an rc. script if you want to stop and start ampheta every hour to force a channel refresh. 16:33:58 anyone know if there's a macspeech demo? 16:34:01 but that feature is being built into the next version. 16:35:35 sbp, what other tendencies do i have, hmm? 16:35:41 and hey, did you finish that silly doc i sent you? 16:36:10 you have a tendency to second-guess yourself 16:36:36 i do? no i don't!. 16:36:40 oh wait. yeah, i suppose i do. 16:36:40 16:37:06 or do you? 16:37:11 *pop!* 16:37:14 :) 16:37:20 Sorry, I was playing TSRTS, and it's difficult to stop once you get going... 16:37:26 yeah, I read the doc through 16:37:27 tstrs? 16:37:41 and as for tendencies, well, you second guess yourself a lot 16:37:43 .google TSRTS 16:37:44 TSRTS: http://www.ledzeppelin.ru/forum/posts/71.html 16:39:18 better reference: http://www.led-zeppelin.org/tablature/files/t-8-3-g.html 16:39:33 ah. 16:42:11 Hmm... that Tab seems quite off to me 16:42:39 Aaron, where are the RDF test cases? 16:42:48 .google rdf test cases 16:42:50 rdf test cases: http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/WD-rdf-testcases-20010912 16:43:24 also http://www.w3.org/2000/10/rdf-tests/ 16:43:36 entourages notes i have 15 minutes 16:49:45 Gotta run 16:50:08 sbp! 16:50:11 should i call you now? 16:52:29 sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds) 16:56:01 +SeanPalmer 16:56:15 +AaronSw 16:56:55 +FrankM 16:57:51 * em dials 16:58:28 +EricM 16:58:53 eric: have the bridge for a little longer than an hour if necessary 16:59:09 long story short: i need help 16:59:19 ... frank is only one who delievered from first telecon 16:59:30 ... grabbed stuff from Aaron and sbp, had trouble integrating 16:59:43 ... realized it could be 3 diff. primers 17:00:19 ... wants to compare notes 17:01:21 frank: (was some material on reification) 17:02:19 aaron: want a doc to point developers too 17:02:33 eric: when they ask me about rdf they ask: 17:02:36 - why is this important? 17:02:39 - how do I do it? 17:02:45 - who else is doing it? 17:02:46 - where is it being used? 17:02:48 - what tools can help me? 17:03:21 .. should we partition? 17:04:52 sbp: look at rdf schema 17:04:57 err xml schema 17:05:03 we chould do: history, introduction 17:05:09 serialization, namespaces, etc 17:05:15 daml, ontology stuff 17:05:20 ... m12n is necessary 17:05:31 ... want something that's not too big to start and work thru 17:05:34 and then move on 17:06:02 sbp clarifies: three separate documents 17:06:28 frank: what i imagined was to say what rdf _is_ 17:07:16 ... how do you model things? what are the general idea? 17:07:20 ... then have some applications 17:07:50 ... once you have that core, you can have modules on tools, who's using it 17:07:54 ... introduction to the model theory 17:08:19 ... need a core explanation, sorta like what M&S tries to do 17:08:28 ... don't want to mix some stuff up 17:08:36 xena has quit (Excess Flood) 17:09:10 em: intro to the model theory wouldn't be helpful here 17:09:18 ... but would it be? 17:09:37 ... some really get it, others say you're taking a complex thing and making it completely inaccessible 17:09:49 frank: primer doesn't stand alone 17:10:04 eric: dependencies... what needs to be included? 17:10:41 ... primer might say what they're there for 17:10:48 frank: put into context 17:11:00 em: wasn't initially going after that, but it does make sense 17:11:26 ... sorta going after web architecture 17:11:54 ... identifying things with uris, xml introduction, context on why we structure things in this way and benefits 17:12:20 sbp: yeah, that's aaron's stuff 17:12:29 ... shows how rdf came up -- with xml and namespaces and uris 17:12:32 * em appologies for mushing your guys together 17:12:33 ... and how data fits together 17:12:37 no prob 17:12:48 sbp: there are other things that come with it 17:13:17 sbp: lots of philo discussions that get missed 17:13:46 eric: intended audience? 17:15:14 sbp: i think me a year ago would be good model 17:15:24 ... i knew about xhtml, someone mentioned the semantic web on xml-dev 17:15:35 ... the only document was timbl's semweb roadmap, and some stuff on xml.com 17:15:40 .. i read it, but it wasn't enough 17:15:48 ... i had to talk to people like aaron and so forth 17:15:55 ... the breaking point was timbl's notation3 primer 17:16:08 ... from there to m&s, rdfs, daml 17:16:20 ... want a central point to link to all of these things 17:16:45 frank: i'm targetting it towards a collection of people... 17:16:53 ... i want to speak similar to sbp, but i'm not sean 17:16:57 ... i come with a different background 17:17:12 ... i found it was interesting when you get to talking about tech like rdf 17:17:18 ... it's the intersection of DB, Web, KR 17:17:30 ... certain things are interesting based on your background 17:17:45 ... i took the tact from the data model section 17:17:49 ... people used to databases 17:18:14 ... neat stuff is exciting issues about identifying things on the web 17:18:33 ... that's when things get interesting 17:18:45 ... want to go to folks used to dealing with large data 17:19:01 ... then you got to point out the URI business 17:19:17 ... i'm trying to get the data folks on board 17:20:49 aaron: same explanation doesn't work for all groups 17:20:53 [missed stuff] 17:21:04 frank: object dbs allow behavior in the db 17:21:13 (for db people) 17:21:17 for oo people it's persistence 17:21:26 ... it's the same problem -- different ramifications for each 17:22:51 aaron: i want to aim at app developers and get them to store data 17:23:08 eric: me too -- i have an audience that aren't sold on this stuff 17:23:14 ... we (this group) are sold 17:23:32 ... but i want this aimed at the folks saying: why is this important? what are the recipies? 17:23:47 ... just tell me how do I do it? 17:24:21 ... some things we need to clarify. serious issues with going to do it 17:24:40 sbp: use cases are good for that 17:24:50 ... they show it works, and show how someone else did it 17:25:06 Morbus has left #swhack 17:25:47 aaron: have a cookbook like perl and python 17:25:55 eric: for me it's a cookbook -- there are patterns that i see 17:26:07 ... writing some of those recipies down 17:26:17 ... would benefit so many people 17:26:22 ... DC never had recipies 17:26:26 ... and made some mistakes 17:26:43 ... same mistakes being repeated 17:26:59 aaron: it's a pattern language and we need to write it down 17:27:22 frank: there are some data modelling idioms covered in M&S we need to cover 17:27:54 ... when do you use a container or repeated attributes? 17:27:58 eric: is it is-a or has-a? 17:28:14 ... a sorta follow the trail kind of thing 17:28:20 ... controlled vocabularies 17:28:31 ... i have seven things about this topic 17:28:48 Python Cookbook: http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python 17:29:16 ... need to tackle the 80/20 stuff 17:29:31 ... help groups confusing author string and persons 17:29:49 eric: 30 minutes left, how do we fill it in? 17:30:36 frank: cookbook is arbitrarily extensible 17:30:46 ... we get the basic stuff down in the primer, but we could have another document 17:31:01 ... don't want to get in the way 17:31:30 eric: i view the rdf and rdf schema separation as a managerial one, not a technical one 17:31:34 ... we need to group logically, not by specs 17:32:09 * AaronSw agrees 17:32:49 sbp: one of the best rdf skills is playing mix and match and choosing the right terms 17:34:42 aaron: have primer being core background and point towards cookbook as evolving resouce 17:34:47 ... perhaps ask aspn for help with this 17:34:52 ... but not a w3c deliverable 17:35:00 eric: good point, we keep learning more 17:35:12 frank: recipies include not just idioms, but in fact whole schemas 17:36:34 sbp: i looked at the daml ontology list and many have errors and mistakes 17:36:57 ... we can't throw them to the cookbook without teaching them first 17:37:12 ... serialization is the most annoying part 17:37:23 eric: the people who get rdf the most, imo, are those who've never seen xml 17:38:02 frank: i'm looking at the rdf core wg page 17:38:24 ... what the primer at least has to do is all of the explanation that the m&S does 17:38:31 because no one else will do that 17:39:34 frank: does the primer need to cover rdf/xml? 17:40:09 aaron: i want to make xml optional 17:40:19 sbp: perhaps have a flowchart 17:41:07 eric: in M&S we did some things for historical reasons we don't need to do anymore 17:41:24 ... no such thing as abbreviated syntax 17:41:29 ... no id 17:41:30 GabeW (~gwachob@12.236.92.153) has joined #swhack 17:41:45 carter.openprojects.net has changed the topic to: Taking notes from the RDF Primer telecon, 17:41:50 carter.openprojects.net has changed the topic to: Taking notes from the RDF Primer telecon 17:41:58 eric: some things we can do to make it easier to swallow 17:42:04 (it = rdf/xml 17:42:20 ... we need some kind of this is what it looks like kind of thing 17:43:03 eric: n-triples, then xml 17:43:15 ... ntriples in the sense of: this is a simple sentence 17:44:26 ... show the comparison between n-triples, rdf/xml, and arcs and nodes 17:44:57 ... we now have the tools to spit out all those formats plus svg and png 17:45:32 aaron: very cool to have a "other representations" web service 17:46:03 aaron: i got the sense that we're looking at giving people the background they need to dig in 17:46:08 sbp: getting into the rdf mess 17:46:40 my doc: 17:46:45 rdf's place in webarch 17:47:10 frank: i have a problem starting off with soemthing other than rdf 17:47:15 eric: absolutely 17:47:25 ... introduction should be all about rdf 17:47:34 ... start off with an example 17:47:43 ... but the next section should go into the context of the web 17:48:06 ... we're building off of the web here 17:48:22 ... different from my days in sgml 17:48:40 ... building off of the web helps 17:48:49 ... showing at goals 17:49:37 frank: once you have a bit to talk about the data model 17:49:52 ... natural hook to attach the explanation of uris 17:49:57 ... and explain a resource 17:50:55 aaron: have a narrative to hold things together 17:51:06 sbp: URIs identifying things are a huge leap for people 17:51:42 frank: you should re-read my data model thhing 17:51:56 ... starts with URLs but shows useful relationships 17:52:07 ... but then uses uris 17:52:15 ... show predicates are uris 17:52:46 [rum analogy] 17:53:25 eric: frank's thing could be a whole document by itself 17:53:36 frank: is this the right material? is it going to slow? 17:55:06 frank's doc: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Oct/att-0236/01-primermodel7.html 17:55:30 eric: need some outline for tomorrow's telecon 17:55:40 ... seems aaron and frank are saying similar things on a different outline 17:59:48 eric: more text than we know what to do wiht 17:59:53 ... need a storyline/outline 18:01:05 eric: can people commit time up until the 20th 18:01:15 yes all around 18:01:22 GabeW has quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds) 18:02:21 telecons seem helpful 18:02:28 eric: take discussion to email until we get an outline 18:02:33 ... see how far we get on that. 18:02:45 ... once we feel comfortable, put some meat on the bone 18:03:27 ... cc www-archive 18:03:46 AaronSw, can you start the ball off by sending these excellent notes? 18:03:53 sure 18:04:01 will do 18:04:05 and cc www-arhchive 18:08:36 GabeW (~gwachob@12.236.92.153) has joined #swhack 18:12:38 for primer: pointer to community 18:23:58 GabeW has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 18:23:58 scipient has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 18:27:55 http://www.mozilla.org/blue-sky/misc/199805/intertwingle.html 18:28:39 GabeW (~gwachob@12.236.92.153) has joined #swhack 18:28:39 scipient (~scipient@66.169.64.154) has joined #swhack 18:34:17 GabeW has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:34:22 scipient has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 18:34:26 GabeW (~gwachob@12.236.92.153) has joined #swhack 18:34:49 scipient (~scipient@66.169.64.154) has joined #swhack 18:39:45 scipient has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 18:40:51 scipient (~scipient@66.169.64.154) has joined #swhack 18:47:20 scipient has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 18:47:29 scipient (~scipient@66.169.64.154) has joined #swhack 18:47:49 logster, bookmark 18:47:49 See http://blogspace.com/swhack/chatlogs/2001-12-13#T18-47-49 18:49:45 sbp (~sean@m784-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 18:49:53 well, hello there 18:50:11 * sbp waves 18:50:13 heh, hi there 18:50:17 fancy meeting you here 18:50:26 fancy meeting *anyone* here 18:50:27 quite odd, isn't it? 18:50:37 links for mr. palmer: 18:50:37 http://www.mozilla.org/blue-sky/misc/199805/intertwingle.html 18:50:49 ah, enchanting 18:50:49 http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?RdfPrimerOutine 18:50:58 Outine? 18:51:08 Perhaps there should be an "l" in there somewhere? 18:51:10 you guys using c2's wiki,eh? 18:51:25 yeah, we like the retro 90's charm 18:51:38 ah, perhaps my lack of an l is why it was deleted. 18:51:53 that appears to be a distinct possibility :-) 18:52:21 * AaronSw fights with wiki.db 18:52:31 http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?RdfPrimerOutline 18:52:34 wow, Frank's done his outline already! 18:52:48 we've slipped behind! 18:52:51 indeed! 18:52:55 we better get cracking 18:53:02 you mean: hacking 18:53:28 indeed 18:54:13 where did you say you were off to? 18:54:29 I'll be off to watch The Simpsons in about 3 minutes time 18:54:37 ah, right then 18:55:23 * AaronSw sends IRC log 18:55:41 * sbp runs through the log, tries the Python cookbook 18:56:36 Hmm.. I appear to have found this before, when I was looking for something else (can't remember what - must have been when I was first getting into Python) 18:56:57 what? 18:57:10 huh? 18:57:18 Python Cookbook: http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python 18:57:25 * sbp runs out of time 18:57:31 c'ya 18:57:38 Well, gotta run. I'll be back in about an hour, probably 18:57:40 c'ya 18:57:46 ta ta 18:57:50 :-) 18:57:54 ;) 18:58:42 [Global Notice] Repeating the message for those lost in the confusion. We began experiencing severe network problems with one of our main rotation servers and we've removed the server from the rotation and shut it down. Apologies for the inconvenience. If you'd like to help and have a server with excellent connectivity, please take a look at http://openprojects.net/sponsoring_servers.shtml .... thanks. 18:58:49 i was trying to figure out what sbp was talking about when he said "I appear to have found this before" 18:59:02 I believe he was referring to the cookbook 18:59:21 ooooh 18:59:33 * AaronSw is glad they didn't take down his server. 19:00:20 sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds) 19:24:22 Morbus (~Morbus@morbus.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack 19:24:38 teleconn still on? 19:24:45 nope 19:24:56 poo. 19:25:00 logster, where am i? 19:25:00 See http://blogspace.com/swhack/chatlogs/2001-12-13#T19-25-00 19:25:12 carter.openprojects.net has changed the topic to: Tea, anyone? My tea? 19:25:14 thanks, logster 19:25:47 were you transcribing that yourself? or voice to text? 19:26:42 no, by hand 19:27:08 nice. 19:27:12 impressive, rather. 19:27:17 thanks 19:27:23 i missed a bunch towards the end 19:27:32 your fingers were probably getting tired ;) 19:27:49 yeah :) 19:36:34 i'm sure it cycles down to a slower speed. 19:36:46 i mean, 12 processors, and no battery monitoring? 19:36:55 oh, I dont mean dead battery 19:36:58 I mean, failed battery 19:37:00 it happens 19:37:09 what about a failed motor in one wheel? 19:37:15 you go in circles. 19:37:18 hehehe 19:37:22 "my invention even handles disorientation!" 19:37:24 thats no fun at 12 mph 19:37:25 "water in the inner ear!" 19:37:30 "drunkenness!" 19:37:31 19:37:39 GabeW, backup batteries! 19:39:26 I still think the faceplant issue is rather serious 19:40:00 s/ei/ie/ 19:42:04 thieving is a word 19:42:28 man, the logs are going to be so strange 19:42:45 oh please. 19:42:57 i'm sure they said that back then too, only with Milton instead of Shakespeare. 19:43:06 of course, i dunno if the timeline is right on that, but you know ;) 19:43:39 logs strange? not at all! we're giving an example of internet decay, when threads of conversation disappear into comment land. 19:43:57 faceplanting, thieving 19:44:06 shakespeare 19:44:12 facethieving, planting. 19:44:19 that'd be an interesting google query 19:44:27 Shakesepare didn't have a dictionary, so he had no way of knowing what was a word. 19:44:34 .google faceplanting thieving shakespeare 19:44:38 dammit 19:44:53 where in the world is xena? 19:45:03 that may be true, AaronSw, but that... she flooded out when you were transcribing. 19:45:05 Your search - faceplanting thieving shakespeare - did not match any documents. 19:45:09 probably next to Carmen San Diego 19:45:28 * GabeW waits for the groans 19:45:36 groan 19:45:40 where in the world is? do you have that theme song? 19:45:43 i have it around here somewhere. 19:45:49 i used to play that game. loved it to death. 19:45:53 me too 19:46:05 hey, did you ever play Number/Word Munchers and Oregon Trail? 19:46:08 those were some of my favorites too. 19:46:10 yeah! 19:46:13 and there was this fishing game too. 19:46:16 xena (xena@mewtwo.espnow.com) has joined #swhack 19:46:19 where you were a fish and had to eat the right shit. 19:46:32 i don't remember that 19:46:33 and if you played enough, you could tell a bird was coming just because of a split second pause inthe sounds. 19:46:36 it was awesome :) 19:46:36 geezuz kids 19:46:39 they had all those games in 1st grade 19:46:43 yeah! 19:46:48 i played them forever. i loved it. 19:46:49 Carmen San Diego was way after my childhood 19:46:58 heh heh he 19:47:05 come on, you can admit it GabeW 19:47:12 heh, heh. 19:47:21 welp, afk for abit. gotta make some envelopes on a diff box 19:57:52 xena has quit (Excess Flood) 19:58:41 xena (xena@mewtwo.espnow.com) has joined #swhack 19:59:30 sbp (~sean@m392-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 19:59:51 hello 20:00:25 Hi 20:01:05 i put up a sketch at that outline page 20:01:30 * sbp catches up on stuff 20:01:50 ooh, sprockets 20:06:05 xena has quit (Excess Flood) 20:06:42 xena (xena@mewtwo.espnow.com) has joined #swhack 20:07:07 * sbp adds two small notes to the primer outline 20:09:02 * sbp plays "Whiskey From The Glass" 20:09:58 good points 20:10:24 what do you mean by "Introduction to basics of RDF" - it's a significant step that's missing from Frank's outline 20:10:36 s/F"/F"?/ 20:10:59 i mean like, rdf is made up of triples, each portion is a resource 20:11:04 that sort of thing 20:12:11 right. So, it's the whole "here's the RDF data model" thing. The odd thing about that is how it confuses the OOP folk... 20:13:05 hmm, it does? 20:14:12 Yeah, because they think of classes as OOPS classes, with string attribute values, and the fact that you have contraints on the properties rather than the classes drives them nuts 20:14:18 heh: "OOPS" 20:14:23 heh 20:17:18 ok. 20:17:21 whoo. that was fun. 20:17:43 Heh. 20:18:02 man. i love the spam i get. 20:18:03 [[[ 20:18:03 FREE INTERNET BROADCAST TALK ON: 20:18:04 Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 7 PM (CST) 20:18:04 http://www.originsofevil.com/ 20:18:04 Fallen Angels, Originators of Evil on Planet Earth? 20:18:04 ]]] 20:18:10 lol 20:18:26 they must have googled for evil teletubbies or something 20:18:46 heh, heh, heh 20:23:45 :) 20:23:53 i love the terms people find me by. 20:24:00 such a wealth of weirdness :) 20:24:16 i met that scattergirl chick because she looked for "devil image" at i.google. 20:24:48 * sbp wonders why scats was searching for that 20:24:58 she works for a design agency. 20:25:03 she designs crap all day long. 20:25:25 Tea? 20:25:32 My tea? 20:26:53 yeah 20:27:02 what's up with that? 20:27:21 It's sort of a pun on mit 20:27:35 is that what this is? 20:27:41 oh. i never would have guessed that. 20:28:01 so, sbp, what'd you think of that word doc i sent? 20:28:41 you want: Hmm... My Tea? 20:29:00 carter.openprojects.net has changed the topic to: Hmm... My tea? 20:29:12 or "Collagen In My Tea?" 20:29:29 good, but I've had to bung it on the back shelf temporarily. And anyway, I can't discuss it in public, you said :-) 20:29:43 heheh. well, everythiing but the ... .. audience participation thing i said. 20:29:58 ah, fair enough 20:30:11 THe Godzilla thing still cracks me up 20:30:15 and hey, the danza/megway thing was pretty lame, as expected. 20:30:18 heheh :) ... 20:31:03 word doc? 20:32:09 yah. its the beginning of a design doc for that game i was blthering on about las tnight 20:32:16 aha 20:33:48 and the secrecy is only cos i don't want someone else to screw it up. 20:33:59 i think its a really neat idea, i would just hate to see it in someone else's hands. 20:34:14 hmm 20:34:18 hmm? 20:34:34 do you have to question everything? ;-) 20:35:31 is that a bad thing? ;) 20:35:53 What does it look like? 20:36:09 what does what look like? 20:36:21 oh come now, you're telling me you're that blind? 20:36:41 have you ever thought that maybe you're the one who's blind? 20:36:57 hey, who do you think you are?! 20:37:01 can someone please enlighten me as to what's going on? 20:37:07 should we tell him? 20:37:17 what do you think? 20:37:23 logster, where am i? 20:37:23 See http://blogspace.com/swhack/chatlogs/2001-12-13#T20-37-23 20:37:46 sbp, why do you want to know? 20:38:03 I take it you're just playing some stupid game where you just keep asking each other questions? 20:38:09 do you know how silly you're all being? 20:38:24 don't you think you're just contributing to the silliness? 20:38:42 did you ever stop to think that I might like a bit of silliness now and then? 20:38:49 Heh: http://www.cartoonbank.com/newyorkistan.asp 20:38:58 Why would I think about that? 20:39:23 [[[ 01,0010[15:40] cialadybug: 01do you know of a play called waiting for godot? that irc log reminds me of it.]]] 20:39:27 heh, heh 20:39:40 which IRC log? 20:39:44 Does she like Stoppard? 20:40:09 [[[ 20:40:10 01,0010[15:41] cialadybug: 01ack 20:40:10 04[15:41] morbus_iff: 01just keep refreshing. you're part of the chat now ;) 20:40:10 10[15:41] cialadybug: 01how'd i get on there? 20:40:11 ]]] 20:40:27 heh heh 20:40:30 01,0010[15:41] cialadybug: 01i do like stoppard. 20:40:30 @ http://www.cartoonbank.com/newyorkistan.asp 20:40:34 D: Cartoonbank.com - New Yorkistan Cover from AaronSw 20:40:39 who is stoppard? 20:40:42 hey, can you guys point me to a site that is using RSS that a "suit" would recognize? 20:40:47 Tom Stoppard 20:40:50 playwright 20:40:51 D:See also this [New York Times Cover|http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/08/arts/design/08NOTE.html]. 20:40:56 .google Tom Stoppard 20:40:57 Tom Stoppard: http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/9432/stoppard 20:41:09 author of "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead" 20:41:14 lol @ refreshing 20:41:31 I pity the poor fools whose minds are warped by reading these logs 20:41:38 no offence, cialadybug 20:41:42 * GabeW was a theater minor in undergrad 20:42:35 Cool. 20:44:06 god, what the hell is wrong with me. 20:44:07 anyway, to repeat my questoin 20:44:11 hey, can you guys point me to a site that is using RSS that a "suit" would recognize? 20:44:15 cialadybug asked me who sbp was, and i said "a good friend". 20:44:27 gabew, look into syndic8.com, but a good one might be salon.com. 20:44:35 ugh, poor you 20:44:58 i know! 20:45:04 i cant believe i lied to her! she's a nice person. 20:45:18 GabeW, Red Harring? 20:45:33 s/har/her/ 20:45:40 ah, whatever 20:45:45 didn't they go bankrupt? 20:45:48 aren't they out of business? 20:46:07 no, going bankrupt was a red herring. 20:46:13 they operate an ice cream factory now 20:46:15 hahaahahah 20:46:24 D::And [this letter|http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/13/opinion/L13YORK.html]. 20:46:25 commented item D 20:46:33 heh, heh, heh. Don't forget she's probably reading this 20:46:35 * sbp waves 20:47:33 .google "]Open Space Movement" 20:47:34 "]Open Space Movement": http://www.openspacemovement.org 20:49:21 s/]// 20:51:45 .google ww2online 20:51:45 ww2online: http://www.hq.wwiionline.com 20:52:10 LOL! 20:52:12 "01,0010[15:52] cialadybug: 01is this sbp guy your mortal enemy or what?" 20:52:17 lol! 20:52:30 Heh: http://www.cartoonbank.com/chast_intro/images/006.jpg 20:53:23 text version? 20:53:35 yeah, sure, just put .txt on the end there ;) 20:54:34 it's a cartoon site! they don't believe in text 20:55:09 they don't believe in accessiblity? That's not good 21:01:39 D&D summed up in one beautiful phrase: """ME: "Hold on a fucking second here-"""" - http://somethingawful.com/ 21:02:36 hehe 21:09:59 sbp, you think i should send that Rdf Primer Outline stuff to the group? 21:10:10 Morbus has left #swhack 21:10:16 at least to www-archive, IMO 21:10:25 ok 21:15:24 sbp, I've edited the page a bit -- what do you think? 21:19:57 sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m197-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com))) 21:20:12 sbp (~sean@m197-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 21:21:15 sorry... 21:21:42 the new RDF Primer Outline is good. Dunno whether the links to the community should go in the intro or the "what now?" section 21:21:58 I guess a few of them could into the introduction, with a more comprehensive reference at the bottom 21:22:06 Yeah, that could work. 21:22:28 I was inclined to put them at the bottom because you get the feeling of: Well that was fun, where do I go next? 21:22:33 we don't want people to feel as if the document is isolated soemhow; rather that it's a "definitive" bit of primer material, but here are some places of escape 21:22:40 Hmm. 21:22:42 yeah, I agree that most of it should go at the bottom 21:22:56 it's always the case that you read something and think "great, but now what?" 21:23:07 but the status should be clear from the beginning - open and friendly 21:23:20 Yea, it'd be good to say at the top that "this document doesn't stand alone. see these other pages and ask these folks for help." 21:24:05 yeah 21:33:11 sbp has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 21:48:25 sbp (~sean@m197-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 21:54:19 sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds) 22:16:12 MorbusIff (~Morbus@morbus.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack 22:16:12 and on this day, at 5:17, morbus' head doth pop. 22:16:12 man, look at all the people in the room. 22:22:46 there should be a well-agreed-upon protocol for bots to identify themselves upon the request of a user 22:22:56 i agree. 22:23:03 i've been meaning to write a bot. 22:23:16 I should just be able to say "bots!" and each bot should say "I am a bot" 22:23:29 bots! 22:37:00 43% rayon,
34% acrylic,
19% polyester,
4% cotton 22:37:03 oop. hqahaha. 22:37:08 http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-tipcss2/index.html 22:46:32 MorbusIff has left #swhack 23:07:20 sbp (~sean@m21-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 23:14:49 howdy 23:15:46 ugh, it 23:15:46 it's all clowdy out 23:15:51 Morbus (~Morbus@s120.terminal3.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack 23:18:53 Morbus has quit (Ping timeout: 182 seconds) 23:19:10 Morbus (~Morbus@s109.terminal3.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack 23:20:28 ooh, nice new phenomic word: "clowdy" 23:20:34 bah 23:20:49 heh 23:21:21 pfnürgn, Morbus? 23:21:53 I needed clowdy to rhyme with howdy. 23:21:58 and dowdy 23:22:05 .wn dowdy 23:22:06 dowdy defined as: 23:22:07 - adj 1: lacking in smartness or taste; "a dowdy gray outfit"; "a clean and sunny but completely dowdy room" 23:22:08 - 2: primly out of date; "nothing so frumpish as last year's gambling game" [syn: {frumpy}, {frumpish}] n : deep-dish apple dessert covered with a rich crust [syn: {pandowdy}] 23:22:31 frumpish seems awfully phenomic. 23:22:47 it sounds too germanesque 23:23:03 heh, heh, I meant Germanic, but it sounds better Frenchized 23:23:25 Heh heh. 23:23:39 I think Stephen E. Dowdy, the Earl of URL(tm) might take offense. http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~dowdy/ 23:23:40 Morbus has quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds) 23:23:52 .google frumpy etymology 23:23:52 frumpy etymology: http://www.flakmag.com/about/letters00.html 23:26:39 GabeW has quit ("Client Exiting") 23:29:03 Morbus (~Morbus@s125.terminal3.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack 23:29:54 wow, this is getting annoying 23:35:34 stupid isp ;) 23:36:05 heh, heh. 23:36:10 actually, its my stupid usb modem. 23:36:18 for some odd reason, when it sends out a decent amount of data, it freezes. 23:36:30 ah, that 23:36:31 anyways, the next version of os x is 10.1.2, right? i'm having a brain cramp. 23:36:43 it should be... it's not out yet, is it? 23:37:03 no. should be out real soon. the developer one has been seeded. 23:37:27 Hmm 23:46:28 A, did you get the P intro? 23:47:21 yo, A-ster, are you there? 23:48:59 I did indeed. 23:49:08 Heh, look at these links we've gotten: 23:49:15 anchor tag # of times 23:49:15 swhack weblog 2 23:49:15 aaron swarz 1 23:49:15 aaron 1 23:49:15 aaron's running a chump bot 1 23:49:24 people can't spell my name, apparently 23:49:39 hhehe 23:50:19 According to http://blogdex.media.mit.edu/browseSource.asp?url=http://blogspace.com/swhack/weblog/ 23:50:32 change that url= to ego= AaronSw. 23:50:43 heh, heh, heh 23:50:46 heh heh 23:50:46 no, seriously. 23:50:48 it's new. 23:50:49 no, it's a different link 23:50:51 at the misspelling 23:50:51 i'm not joking. 23:51:00 i know -- that's what i'm doing now 23:51:03 ah. 23:51:23 doesn't seem to quite work for us tho 23:52:00 i guess since we don't have any socnet links 23:55:38 we don't? oh man, what a shame 23:55:48 what would we link to? 23:55:57 the chumps i guess... 23:57:54 Hmm... let's review the people that we have in here 23:59:25 i cant see the user list for some reason. 23:59:29 AaronSw - owner, creator, and master of the #swhack kingdom. Aaron "Two Monitors" Swartz has reigned supreme over #swhack, enforcing his Big Brother-esque philosophies by logging us straight to the Web. He also runs a health farm in Minnesota, but we don't like to talk about that 23:59:42 Heh heh heh. 23:59:49 Ooh: morfran: And the Pants cult will be enjoying a mass suicide on the 13th May 2002. 23:59:51 don't forget that he likes to reinvent history.