00:14:13 AaronSw: i mailed you a package today containing a book 00:15:54 sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds) 00:16:08 sbp (~sean@m851-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 00:26:47 sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m901-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com))) 00:27:02 sbp (~sean@m901-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 00:27:30 ooh! 00:28:11 cwm --rdf http://www.cs.umd.edu/projects/plus/DAML/onts/personal1.0.daml --n3 surf.n3 --think > pub.n3 01:36:04 tav` has quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds) 01:40:30 tav` (~tav@host217-34-77-77.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined #swhack 01:57:57 sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m965-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com))) 01:58:12 sbp (~sean@m965-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 02:02:44 sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 187 seconds) 02:03:16 sbp (~sean@m969-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 02:18:21 big minutes: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/2001/12/05-minutes 02:29:40 heh, Nick: "Ah, yes, we were making a hash of it" 02:33:01 hi all 02:35:54 sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m993-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com))) 02:36:10 sbp (~sean@m993-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 02:36:42 wb 02:36:46 ty 02:36:57 at 02:37:26 tanu 02:37:45 ?? 02:37:51 that's a new one 02:37:58 s/u/o/ 02:38:06 ah 02:38:09 (Standard Upper Ontology) 02:38:17 heh 02:38:19 at -> any time 02:38:35 yeah, I guessed that after about 10 seconds 02:39:11 So... You like chat? 02:39:53 Hmm? 02:40:22 You like chat? Me talkee no good English - bad bad 02:40:32 Ah, see good. 02:40:50 Ruby read you much too! 02:41:19 I did sure (and only a few of the lines at that) 02:41:49 @ http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312862075/coolbooks02 02:41:54 A: Amazon.com: Explore similar items from AaronSw 02:42:02 A:|Amazon.com: True Names 02:42:02 titled item A 02:42:17 A::After about 3 years of waiting, Amazon finally is shipping this book! 02:42:17 commented item A 02:42:39 A::Unfortunately, it's too late. I already got a copy off of Mojo Nation. ;-) 02:42:40 commented item A 02:44:24 heh, heh, heh 02:46:15 I'm actually serious on that point. 02:46:28 I cleaned it up somewhat and put it on my site. 02:46:36 Uh huh 02:55:04 * sbp cleans up the EARL 1.0 test specification 02:55:21 I'm wondering how to capture threading in EARL; if it's even necessary, etc. 02:55:48 also, we need to be able to point to very discrete things... precision is critical 02:56:12 threading? 02:56:30 How'd Danbri get into Ruby? 02:56:39 yes: how to say that you're evaluating the "same thing" 02:56:44 Boy, Ruby sure looks like Python... but without the colons 02:56:45 DanBri: no idea whatsoever 02:56:48 sbp, equivalentTo? 02:57:11 no, it's not equivalentTo, because the content has changed... that's the point 02:57:21 for example you might say "this was broken, now it's fixed" 02:57:39 those are two different resources (one is a :Broken, the other is a :Fixed) 02:57:47 but the author may regard them as not being so 02:57:54 The basic model is: :Assertor earl:asserts { :SomeResource earl:passes :SomeTest } . 02:58:21 let's say that the Assertor is the author of :SomeResource, and it doesn't comply to WCAG 1.0 02:58:26 it'd be... 02:58:42 :Assertor earl:asserts { :SomeResource earl:fails :WCAG10 } . 02:58:49 then he fixes the page 02:58:59 :Assertor earl:asserts { :SomeNewResource earl:passes :WCAG10 } . 02:59:09 Aha. 02:59:25 :SomeNewResource :previousVersion :SomeResource . 02:59:25 now, he wants to say, the "general thing" identified in :SomeResource is the same as in :SomeNewResource 02:59:37 well, that was one of quite a few suggestions, yes 03:00:01 I also suggested a DAML List: (:SomeResource :SomeNewResource) a earl:Thread . 03:00:11 but now I think that's unecessary 03:01:00 GabeW (~gwachob@12.236.92.153) has joined #swhack 03:01:05 because an EARL TestSubject (the subject in the formula) is actually comprised (as per your suggestion!) of a resource, and a date or some other disambiguating property 03:01:16 :-) 03:01:23 I don't like the list idea. 03:01:28 so it's quite easy to do the logic on the following:- 03:01:57 :SomeResource :resource ; :date "2001-10" . :SomeNewResource :resource ; :date "2001-11" . 03:02:24 list idea: well, you're probably right 03:02:41 Yeah, doing inferences on the dates would be even better: 03:02:45 it's difficult to construct a list automatically 03:03:57 { ?x :resource ?uri ; :date ?date . ?y :resource ?uri ; :date ?date2 . ?date :laterThan ?date2 .} => { ?x :previousVersion ?y } . 03:04:09 and make laterThan a cwm builtin 03:07:01 well, you want to *filter* out all of the previous versions. { ?x :resource ?u; :date :d2 . ?y :resource ?u; :date ?d2 . ?d1 :laterThan ?d2 } log:implies { ?y :resource ?u; :date ?d2 } . 03:07:49 that'd only work for two things, though... not sure how you'd get the "latest" property 03:07:49 s/property/value/ 03:08:16 er the first d2:- 03:08:16 s/d2/d1/ 03:08:28 oh, let me do that again 03:08:41 { ?x :resource ?u; :date :d1 . ?y :resource ?u; :date ?d2 . ?d1 :laterThan ?d2 } log:implies { ?y :resource ?u; :date ?d1 } . 03:09:32 note that we use "testSubject" at the moment instead of resource. I'm thinking of calling it resource... but actually, that's wrong 03:10:04 the resource at time a should be the same as at time a' 03:10:04 it really means the representation of 03:10:04 :reprOf 03:10:32 ah, that's perfect! 03:10:47 :MyPageInOct earl:reprOf ; earl:date "2001-10" . 03:11:12 then you can add additional facets such as content negotiation, and so on 03:11:13 :MyPageInOct earl:reprOf ; earl:date "2001-10"; dc:format "text/html"; :language "en" . 03:12:21 the problem then is that: earl:reprOf rdfs:domain :WebContent . 03:12:52 it's a physical bag of bytes (well, I should go through the UAAG terminology for that) 03:13:34 but in EARL, we want to be able to assess tools as well. Ah, then you just leave the earl:reprOf bit out 03:13:59 we can set a cardinality restriction on the earl:WebContent class so that it must have exactly one "reprOf" arc coming off of it. That makes a lot of sense 03:15:24 O.K., so, changes:- 03:15:33 * Remove testSubject 03:15:40 * Add reprOf 03:16:07 * Set cardinality restriction on WebContent to have 1 and only 1 reprOf 03:16:52 * Add conneg and langneg (?) 03:16:52 * Add isDefinedBy arcs 03:20:08 Now, do we want to give an arc for earl:Tool/earl:UA etc. that gives more information/download etc.? 03:20:16 s/an arc/some arcs/ 03:21:32 Hmm. 03:21:35 Morbus (~Morbus@s117.terminal3.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack 03:22:18 anyone around? need a quick question / answer 03:22:33 Morbus has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:23:08 hmm 03:23:16 i'm around but morb's not 03:23:25 heh, heh, heh; me too 03:25:13 GabeW has quit ("Ba-bye!") 03:25:32 ruby is so like python 03:26:14 Wow, this is dumb: German government plans to ban Net-porn except from 11 pm - 6am 03:27:07 Odd. 03:27:34 lol! 03:27:49 really? 03:28:05 that's one of the silliest things ever decided, if so 03:28:20 Yeah, according to the "Financial Times Deutschland" 03:28:57 heh: >all such content is banned from 11 p.m. until 6 a.m. 03:29:14 source? 03:29:25 http://www.ftd.de/pw/de/FTDPRAR3MUC.html 03:29:32 and http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/politik/0,1518,170361,00.html 03:29:33 thanks 03:29:44 it's from a recent RISKS, too lazy to grab the url now 03:32:07 heh: "Wir können nicht alle Inhalte im Netz überprüfen", sagte Arthur Waldenberger, Vorstand der Freiwilligen Selbstkontrolle Multimedia (FSM). Das sei angesichts Milliarden von Seiten "Schwachsinn". 03:32:28 I'm sure that'd be quite funny if I understood it. 03:32:51 "We can monitor the entire network", said some guy. In the view of millions, that's "utter stupidity". 03:33:24 Heh heh heh. 03:34:27 DISCLAIMER: sbp does not vouch for the accuracy of his translations. For all you know, it could be discussing tax rises for farm animals 03:34:41 Heh heh heh. 03:35:24 oh, heh, I did mistranslate it. *nicht* alle: not all 03:36:03 still makes sense 'though 03:39:05 * sbp should stick to Welsh 03:42:01 Well, really, I should hack on EARL more :-) 03:46:27 :-) 03:47:29 bbl, gingerbread 03:47:45 c'ya 03:48:15 Hmm... UAAG makes the distinction between document, and the document object; the difference being that the document object is the thing that User Agent represents 03:49:22 I think that all EARL claims are going to be made about the code, surely? if you have an event in the browser document object (changing the rendering or whatever), then there must be a piece of addressable code that you can annotate and say "this is good/sucky, because xyz" 03:49:43 IOW, the "Document Source" 04:19:30 xena (xena@mewtwo.espnow.com) has joined #swhack 04:24:47 xena has quit () 04:26:43 @ http://www.spaceweather.com/meteors/geminids/observingtips.html 04:26:50 B: http://www.spaceweather.com/meteors/geminids/observingtips.html from AaronSw 04:27:13 B:|Geminid Observing Tips: Dec. 13-14, 2001 04:27:14 titled item B 04:30:17 B::Great! 04:30:18 commented item B 04:34:17 B::See also the very neat [Heavens-Above|http://www.heavens-above.com/]. 04:34:19 commented item B 04:35:28 sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m221-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com))) 04:35:42 sbp (~sean@m221-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 04:36:21 B::Yes, heavens-above is an absolutely excellent site, highly recommended. I signed up for it a while ago, and they offer a wonderful service [Dec. 2001] 04:36:21 commented item B 04:37:13 What do you get for signing up? 04:38:51 sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m224-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com))) 04:39:06 sbp (~sean@m224-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 04:41:10 What do you get for signing up? 04:42:29 access to the site! 04:43:31 [[[ 04:43:32 you have to log in and tell it exactly where you are for it to work, of course 04:43:32 otherwise, it can't compute the data for you 04:43:32 I'm typing in what appears to be the wrong window 04:43:34 ]]] - #rdfig 04:43:40 I see. 04:43:43 :-) 04:47:19 xena (xena@mewtwo.espnow.com) has joined #swhack 04:49:23 GabeW (~gwachob@12.236.92.153) has joined #swhack 04:52:31 GabeW has quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds) 04:52:31 dngxor has quit ("zzz") 04:52:36 GabeW (~gwachob@12.236.92.153) has joined #swhack 04:54:16 xena has quit () 04:55:09 xena (xena@mewtwo.espnow.com) has joined #swhack 04:55:42 xena has quit (Client Quit) 04:57:42 GabeW has quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds) 05:08:45 GabeW (~gwachob@12.236.92.153) has joined #swhack 05:15:27 xena (xena@mewtwo.espnow.com) has joined #swhack 05:15:43 sbp has quit ("Homer: 20 dollars? 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Interfaces should be derived from the implementation, not from needlessly duplicated code. 16:46:18 commented item C 16:48:28 C::They've got a [ZopeComponentArchitecture for PythonProgrammers tutorial|http://cvs.zope.org/Docs/ZopeComponentArchitecture/PythonProgrammerTutorial/]. 16:48:29 commented item C 16:50:53 C::They also seem to be getting rid of Zope's one decent feature: [decent URIs|http://dev.zope.org//Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/ExplicitNamespaceControlInURLs]. 16:50:54 commented item C 17:11:53 Heh, looking at the @@s (as special syntax in Ruby), DanC would say. Wow, nobody seems to have ever finished writing a Ruby program! 17:14:34 Hmm, is "take" British for "minus"? 17:15:33 yes, it is indeed 17:15:41 lol @ @@ 17:17:49 sbp has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: SeanP!~sean@m1016-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com))) 17:18:04 sbp (~sean@m1016-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 17:21:34 C::Ooh, Zope says that [eventually they will probably adopt capabilities|http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/SecurityFramework]. 17:21:36 commented item C 17:29:00 @ http://test.mnot.net/sparta/ 17:29:07 D: http://test.mnot.net/sparta/ from AaronSw 17:29:40 D:|Sparta: a Simple Api for Rdf 17:29:41 titled item D 17:30:14 D::by [Mark|http://www.mnot.net/] 17:30:15 commented item D 17:31:45 D::Very interesting! 17:31:46 commented item D 17:33:23 @ http://www.w3.org/2001/12/rubyrdf/intro 17:33:24 E: http://www.w3.org/2001/12/rubyrdf/intro from AaronSw 17:33:33 E:|Danbri Does Ruby-RDF 17:33:34 titled item E 17:42:07 D::It's exactly these kinds of APIs that are essential for getting the Plex in common use. 17:42:08 commented item D 17:42:18 E::We'll see if I can win him over to the Python side. 17:42:19 commented item E 17:42:57 Gotta run 17:43:00 sbp has quit ("Homer: 20 dollars? I wanted a peanut!") 17:57:04 swhack: some silly stupifying seminar, so some sbp sings 18:58:15 sbp (~sean@m821-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 18:59:24 swhack: some silly stupifying seminar, so some sbp sings 18:59:52 * sbp is actually singing 19:00:03 "Fool In The Rain", Led Zeppelin 19:04:43 sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds) 19:07:40 sbp (~sean@m533-mp1-cvx3b.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 19:09:48 Hmm... we need earl:format since dc:format isn't necessarily bound to a MIME type 19:10:03 mime types are evil! 19:13:24 Yeah. Not as bad as heirarchies though 19:13:32 Still, they're a fact of the Web 19:13:42 not reall 19:13:45 err really 19:15:39 er... yes. HTTP transactions, for better or worse, depend a lot on MIME types. Entities always have an associated MIME type 19:15:42 If you don't like it, you can create a new system for transferring and recording data on the Web 19:15:44 Oh... you are 19:16:31 :-) 19:16:40 sbp, depends on who you talk to. 19:16:49 I claim that it's a URI field with a base uri of the mime type spec 19:17:29 The MIME type specification doesn't say that (any of the three of them) 19:17:30 I think it's a serious mistake to hobble systems like that. 19:17:38 "hobble"? 19:17:44 I'm not talking about MIME types 19:17:50 I'm talking about HTTP. 19:18:21 oierw`` has quit ("hmm.") 19:18:24 Hey, I'm not exactly in love with MIME. I'm saying that the majority of the billions of entities exchanged on the Web today have a MIME type attached. Live with it 19:18:39 But those MIME types can also be represented as URIs 19:18:47 yes, hobble. 19:18:58 you're limiting your system to today, when there's clearly going to be change tomorrow 19:19:30 How am I limiting it? What on earth are you talking about? You don't even know the particulars of the property! 19:19:45 There are no cardinality restrictions on it 19:19:53 So? 19:20:23 So what's your point? 19:20:32 I'm saying that your system should take the set of mime type URIs instead of thwe mime type strings. 19:20:48 Ah, I see now 19:21:13 * sbp cogitates that 19:21:53 No. If people want to do that, they can create a new property 19:22:01 EARL is a loser. 19:22:05 (in that case) 19:22:11 Even CC/PP did better than that. 19:22:16 Erm... you should watch what you're saying 19:22:41 Heh. This is going to be sent to the lists isn't it. ;-) 19:22:42 You clearly aren't up on what you're talking about, because it's quite clear that EARL can allow for what you're talking about 19:22:57 I don't want to be up on such a loser spec. ;-) 19:23:01 :-) 19:23:21 * sbp is reminded all of a sudden of the "wonder" of xWebL... will say no more 19:24:22 * AaronSw has no idea what sbp means by that. 19:24:26 If you want to come up with an aaron:format property, whose range is rdfs:Resource, then who's stopping you? There's nothing in the EARL specification or schema that stops you. The specification welcomes extensions; I'm just writing that part now 19:24:55 Hah, the old "you do it then" argument. 19:24:58 I'm not falling for that one. 19:25:15 It's still a loser spec. 19:25:59 Well, you can do it. And you can call it a daml:UniqueProperty 19:25:59 heh, you have *no* idea what you're talking about here 19:25:59 quite sad, really 19:26:16 Oh, *I* have no idea what I'm talking about? 19:26:27 Ooh, let's get all rhetorical 19:26:45 Well, look who's talking! 19:26:52 Who's talking? 19:26:55 :-) 19:27:11 Mr. Let's-Make-Up-Rehtorical-Questions-So-I-Don't-Have-To-Answer-Valid-Points. 19:27:23 Such as? 19:27:34 heh, you have *no* idea what you're talking about here 19:27:37 Interesting, considering that that's what you just did 19:27:47 See, there you go again! 19:27:53 Erm... I fail to see how that's a question. IT' 19:27:55 It 19:27:57 aaargh 19:28:00 It's an assertion 19:28:13 rhetorical questions can be assertions. that's why they're so rhetorical 19:28:29 I invented that this morning. 19:28:34 Heh, heh :-) 19:29:07 [Simpsons, Gotta run] 19:29:12 c'ya 19:30:41 sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 182 seconds) 19:41:13 carter.openprojects.net has changed the topic to: These days, money is too expensive to bother having. 19:58:11 sbp (~sean@m137-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 20:04:46 sbp has quit ("Homer: 20 dollars? I wanted a peanut!") 20:13:20 sbp (~sean@m285-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #swhack 20:17:18 grep -i .* while 20:17:38 logster, grep -i .* while 20:18:36 I'm logging. I found 36 answers for '.* while' (showing 0...4) 20:18:37 0) 2001-12-09 20:17:38 logster, grep -i .* while 20:18:38 1) 2001-12-09 20:17:18 grep -i .* while 20:18:39 2) 2001-12-09 04:36:21 B::Yes, heavens-above is an absolutely excellent site, highly recommended. I signed up for it a while ago, and they offer a wonderful service [Dec. 2001] 20:18:40 3) 2001-12-07 04:50:33 yah, that issue (URI vs. URI reference) has been bugging me for a while 20:18:41 4) 2001-12-06 02:36:25 it takes me a while... 20:18:42 logster, grep -i .* whilst 20:18:50 I'm logging. I found 15 answers for '.* whilst' (showing 0...4) 20:18:51 0) 2001-12-09 20:18:42 logster, grep -i .* whilst 20:18:52 1) 2001-11-28 01:37:45 Aaron: A bit of advice; ask to meet the Queen whilst you're in London 20:18:53 2) 2001-11-23 18:54:24 ...or you could go create an anthology of cams, whilst I listen to In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida 20:18:54 3) 2001-10-31 20:14:37 It's freezing here. I left my window open just a crack whilst watching The Simpsons, came back in, and it was like walking into a fridge 20:18:55 4) 2001-10-29 22:56:46 once again, it worked whilst loading, tricking me into thinking that it had worked 20:18:57 hmm 20:23:24 Hmm... 20:23:36 logster, grep -i .* a while 20:23:54 I'm logging. I found 26 answers for '.* a while' (showing 0...4) 20:23:55 0) 2001-12-09 20:23:36 logster, grep -i .* a while 20:23:56 1) 2001-12-09 04:36:21