IRC log of swhack on 2001-11-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:02:46 [tav]
hmz
00:03:15 [sbp]
ah, hi tav
00:11:26 [elmaestro]
elmaestro (inets@B5bec.pppool.de) has joined #swhack
00:12:05 [sbp]
Hi there
01:20:33 [elmaestro]
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01:22:07 [sbp]
sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds)
02:07:34 [sbp]
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02:30:42 [sbp]
Some thoughts on Plex...
02:30:42 [sbp]
http://web.archive.org/web/19970606153236/www.w3.org/People/Connolly/drafts/formalism.html is interesting
02:31:27 [sbp]
I'm wondering how Plex might be able to solve many of the traditional "problems" of HTTP; requirement of a server, difficulty in keeping updates, etc.
02:31:34 [sbp]
and adding metadata... difficult
02:31:49 [sbp]
trust and authentication is also made painfully difficult
02:32:31 [sbp]
Freenet is in what appears to be the right direction, but it just makes everything *soooo* difficult
02:32:38 [sbp]
the keys and so forth should be transparent, like TimBL always argues
02:33:18 [sbp]
I should be able to write out a page, or a bit of text, or whatever, in a Plex text client, and save it straight to a little bit of Plex space
02:33:51 [sbp]
there'll be a link to the actual data itself (the representation), and a link to a threaded concept (the resource)
02:34:13 [sbp]
So, for example, I might say "save my homepage to plex:sbp"
02:34:56 [sbp]
and it'll register somewhere (er... in the Plex, cached locally might be best) that it has saved it, and let me know of the previous data for plex:sbp
02:35:06 [sbp]
when you think about it, people are starting to have more memory than data
02:35:40 [sbp]
if Alexa and Google can keep a hold of billions of Web pages, it only requires a few really decent Plex servers, and it'll be sorted
02:36:04 [sbp]
paying for decent HTTP Web space is a bit of a silly idea
02:36:49 [sbp]
I wonder if it would be possible to build up a decent set of resources using Alexa/Google/www-archive/Freenet/FreeWebSpace? :-)
02:37:17 [sbp]
Plex should make such things seamless. It won't, but it should do
02:37:32 [sbp]
Of course, authentication is always going to be the problem
02:38:02 [sbp]
When you generally pubish a Web page, it's because you own the server (so can publish locally), or hold a password to an FTP server, or whatever
02:39:02 [sbp]
On the Plex, I've no idea how a "concept" URI will be maintained. Well, there's the choice of a password that the user remembers, or a digital signature in the client. Or, perhaps a choice of either or both
02:39:49 [sbp]
Personally, I'd favor the digital signature, because it means that things will be more automated: I just say "publish here", and let my client take care of the tricky things for me
02:40:10 [sbp]
OF course, Plex should also blur the boundaries slightly between protocols
02:40:31 [sbp]
I like the way that Roy and Mark talk about HTTP...
02:40:57 [sbp]
You have the noun, and then the methods that you apply to it. That makes for some flexible, and yet easily implementable, architecture
02:41:26 [sbp]
You could have the URI representing "you" doing different things depending upon the method
02:42:37 [sbp]
PUT plex:sbp (me publishing the page), GET plex:sbp (gets the latest corresp. repr. of the concept, me), MAIL plex:sbp (why not? mail me), and perhaps some more stuff
02:42:53 [sbp]
as for the obvious discussion about plex URIs...
02:43:25 [sbp]
I don't like Freenet's approach of using 89r34ht89235-t982989-h7-94h type strings for identifiers
02:43:49 [sbp]
because even when the technology is transparent, you still have to refer to URIs in plain text. It's an inescapable fact. People have to remember URIs
02:44:41 [sbp]
Now, perhaps each node could have a hash, just a short thing: 2001-849y948t
02:45:06 [sbp]
that would be difficult, but not impossible, to remember, and it would yeild quite a few identifiers
02:45:21 [sbp]
lets say 7^36 per year
02:45:39 [sbp]
that's 2651730845859653471779023381601
02:45:43 [sbp]
more than enough :-)
02:46:23 [sbp]
Well, it could be extensible anyway. Five characters would probably do at first
02:46:35 [sbp]
5^36 = 14551915228366851806640625
02:46:38 [sbp]
still ample
02:46:50 [sbp]
plex:2001-9jr0s:sbp
02:47:40 [sbp]
Hmm... you'll probably have people trading clients or something stupid like that, just to get easy-to-remember names
02:47:58 [sbp]
anyway, I guess that this step isn't important yet until the implementations get nailed down
02:48:24 [sbp]
I'd like to know how Plex will integrate with HTTP. HTTP is just so efficient, and it's too good at beign authoritative
02:49:22 [sbp]
I like the wonderous "everything lasts forever on the Plex unless you delete it, and even then, it might not go"
02:50:01 [sbp]
We may find people starting to redirect HTTP into Plex space. Well, if Plex ever takes off, which it probably won't. We can dream, though
02:50:20 [sbp]
in fact, I'm going to make a redirect right now
02:50:37 [sbp]
I hereby reserve "2001-9jr0s" for all my Plexly needs
02:51:33 [sbp]
and let's set up the redirect...
02:53:02 [sbp]
well, this is rather slow...
02:55:14 [sbp]
oops, I meant 36^5, of course!
02:55:29 [sbp]
which is only 60466176
02:55:40 [sbp]
Pffff, that's still enough for now
02:56:37 [sbp]
ta da:-
02:56:43 [sbp]
http://infomesh.net/2001/11/plex-sbp/ => plex:2001-9jr0s:sbp
02:57:39 [sbp]
well, that was rather pointless. We now need some software to recognize the "plex:" scheme, deploy it on a wide basis, etc.
02:58:48 [sbp]
at least there will be no confusion about names and addresses on Plex. Because the data can be anywhere! The name is all that counts... man, the search algorithms are going to have to be good. Who's programming this, anyway? Oh, yeah...
02:59:36 [sbp]
Hmm... where did Aaron put those "cool features of Plex" again? Perhaps they're on plexdev.org
03:00:24 [sbp]
Pff... who's in charge of redesigning that page? It's absolutely terrible as it is! Oh, hang on again...
03:00:45 [sbp]
Grgpmrpgmrgh, not found: http://plexdev.org/applications
03:01:17 [sbp]
oh man, everything's "not found"
03:02:30 [sbp]
Well, anyway, one was mailing people who may not exist for a long time to come. I'm not actually sure how that will work. Hw do you prove that you are (for example) the fifth generational descendent of John Smith? That's pretty difficult, unless you beg to soem centralized agency
03:03:03 [sbp]
I'm really not sure how Plex can handle that. Of course, if you're just sending postcard Plexmail, then it's easy (read: easier)
03:03:22 [sbp]
It just invloves a search. Probably quite a complex search, but a do-able search
03:03:43 [tav]
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03:04:13 [sbp]
Oh trust tav to ruin the run of "sbp" :-)
03:05:29 [sbp]
I can't help but feel that all of this will be assigned to the scrap heap, though. It's a nice idea, but lots of nice ideas don't go anywhere
03:07:23 [sbp]
anyway, that was a fun rant. We should do this again sometime :-)
03:10:00 [sbp]
Gotta run
03:10:02 [sbp]
sbp has quit ("Homer: 20 dollars? I wanted a peanut!")
04:25:52 [Fernando]
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04:26:21 [Fernando]
I need to find out how to get a password for a web based email server
04:48:31 [tav`]
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06:20:22 [oierw`]
sbp: the keys can be clientside and embedded into a document as needed
06:20:39 [oierw`]
* oierw` figures he can read that
06:20:44 [oierw`]
same with freenet btw
07:29:59 [oierw`]
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10:42:25 [tav`]
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16:09:33 [sbp]
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16:11:21 [sbp]
Hmm... we need a better topic
16:15:29 [sbp]
sbp has changed the topic to: "sometimes i write poetry and do interpretative dance" - Secret Confessions Of Morbus
18:09:57 [sbp]
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19:21:09 [BenSw]
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19:22:17 [BenSw]
(#G1::E010M1) hello
19:22:43 [BenSw]
(#G810E910M1) .date
19:23:17 [BenSw]
(#G910E678M1) .DATE
19:31:20 [BenSw]
(#G;10E910M5) BenSw Ben tests out Microsoft comic chat
19:32:21 [BenSw]
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20:10:16 [sbp]
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20:33:25 [sbp]
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20:35:10 [sbp]
Whither prescriptivism?
20:35:50 [sbp]
We should have an #swhack list of things that suck... I'd probably add prescriptivism
20:37:13 [sbp]
@ http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2001OctDec/0389
20:37:16 [chumpster]
A: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2001OctDec/0389 from sbp
20:37:32 [sbp]
A:|Re: Clear and simple writing
20:37:33 [chumpster]
titled item A
20:37:45 [sbp]
A::My little retort to the thread
20:37:46 [chumpster]
commented item A
20:45:40 [sbp]
@ http://www.bcp.psych.ualberta.ca/~mike/Pearl_Street/Margin/GREEN/Chap2.html
20:45:43 [chumpster]
B: Dawson Margin Notes On Green Chapter 2 from sbp
20:45:56 [sbp]
B::Cool "new" word: """Boxologies"""
20:45:57 [chumpster]
commented item B
20:46:15 [sbp]
B::Original context: """Cognitive scientific theories are often represented as box/arrow diagrams (NB: Boxologies!) This is not a flowchart, because boxes don't represent decisions."""
20:46:16 [chumpster]
commented item B
20:46:20 [sbp]
B::Reminds me of DLGs
20:46:22 [chumpster]
commented item B
20:52:17 [BenSw``]
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20:52:26 [BenSw``]
Hello
20:52:32 [sbp]
Hmm... how many 800x600 screenfuls constitute 2000 words?
20:52:36 [sbp]
Oh, hi there Ben
20:52:46 [BenSw``]
I'm using irctoons
20:53:04 [sbp]
wonderful; fun for all the family
20:53:08 [BenSw``]
31337
20:53:57 [sbp]
Hmm... 25 wpl, 20 lps
20:54:09 [sbp]
so, that's 500 wps
20:54:53 [sbp]
* sbp stares at people who sp311 words with numbers
20:55:16 [sbp]
I mean, how is a "7" meant to look like a "T"? WTF is that all about?
20:55:23 [sbp]
it looks like a 7
20:59:25 [BenSw``]
its l33t
20:59:35 [BenSw``]
in l33t speak
21:01:32 [deltab]
there's some tlak in #python about what URIs, URLs etc. are
21:01:34 [sbp]
Yep. And it sucks. Add it to the list :-)
21:01:46 [sbp]
* sbp runs there
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21:28:19 [oierw`]
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22:29:37 [elmaestro]
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22:29:39 [elmaestro]
hi
22:30:31 [sbp]
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22:38:24 [elmaestro]
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22:56:25 [BenSw]
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22:56:30 [BenSw]
Hi
23:29:12 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw reconnects
23:34:50 [AaronSw]
tav, your genius scheme broke the entire site: http://plexdev.org/applications
23:36:02 [AaronSw]
Aha! BenSw: [19:22] # Appears as ANNA.
23:36:03 [AaronSw]
BenSw: [19:23] # Appears as XENO.
23:36:13 [AaronSw]
BenSw: [19:23] (#G1::E010M1) hello