01:49:00 sbp (~sean@pFAs09a06.client.global.net.uk) has joined #swhack 01:54:06 hey sbp 01:54:08 @ http://www.cs.unc.edu/~cutts/toolbarbeta.html 01:54:10 A: Toolbar Beta from AaronSw 01:54:25 Hi there 01:54:25 A:|Beta of New Google Toolbar 01:54:26 titled item A 01:54:34 * sbp emerges from many hours of Java hacking 01:54:40 A::Let's you "rate" web pages 01:54:41 commented item A 01:54:44 Java hacking? Ooh 01:58:47 Yeah, Python just gets cooler and cooler. 01:59:05 I was reading some of the Python docs today and there are some neat new features lined up. 01:59:12 It certainly does. Why do you say that? 01:59:40 Because you mentioned Java hacking... 02:00:00 yeah. It takes so much more effort to do something in Java than it does in Python 02:00:25 Python just makes everything so effortless -- it's great. 02:00:46 The cool thing is that the code just kinda appears as you write it down 02:01:00 I mean, you don't have to worry so much about nesting, and typing, and all that 02:01:42 exactly 02:02:59 Did you see Zooko's comparison of compressed code? 02:03:22 @ http://zooko.com/shootout-compress.html 02:03:24 B: Language Shootout Compressed Source Code Size from AaronSw 02:03:37 B::Zooko does some interesting measurements. 02:03:38 commented item B 02:05:23 Java's way down the list. Perl does suprisingly well 02:05:43 s/suprisingly/surprisingly/ 02:05:56 well, it is very terse 02:06:13 I guess 02:07:31 I wonder how Befunge would do 02:07:45 Oh dear: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1297092893 02:07:52 You should enter a befunge version! 02:08:17 106? Oh dear... 02:08:30 er.. 108 02:08:41 * sbp turns screen contrast up... 02:09:25 you or deltab should submit a befunge version 02:09:42 submit to who? Zooko? 02:09:48 to the language shootout 02:09:53 http://www.bagley.org/~doug/shootout/ 02:09:57 tansaku (~sam@n146-243.tokyu-net.catv.ne.jp) has joined #swhack 02:10:02 hey tansaku 02:10:06 hey all 02:10:11 Hi there 02:10:13 sbp, tansaku wants to know why Python is better than Java 02:10:19 tansaku is a Java coder 02:10:22 heh, heh! 02:10:56 I've just manages to get irc libs for Java and Python 02:11:21 I hacked ircShaney up in Python in just a minute or two -- that's how easy it is. :) 02:11:32 Right now, I can hack faster in Java, but since xena and blanubot are in Python, makes me feel like I should go that way too 02:11:33 try http://www.twistedmatrix.com/users/glyph/rant/python-vs-java.html 02:11:54 AaronSw: but I did the same with bob2 and it took almost no time really 02:12:08 * tansaku checks sbp's link 02:13:21 * tansaku will read link after he's had a shower 02:13:26 * tansaku goes to have a shower 02:13:26 I'd guess that if you had learned Python at the same time as Java, you would have a) picked up Python quicker, and b) have been able to code much faster in Python now than Java 02:13:31 c'ya 02:13:48 sbp: maybe true - will get back to you on thaqt 02:14:06 @ http://www.twistedmatrix.com/users/glyph/rant/python-vs-java.html 02:14:11 C: A subjective analysis of two high-level, object-oriented languages from sbp 02:14:23 C:|A subjective analysis of two high-level, object-oriented languages 02:14:24 titled item C 02:14:31 C::Comparing Python to Java 02:14:31 commented item C 02:14:36 B::He uses stuff from [the language shootout|http://www.bagley.org/~doug/shootout/] to do his tests. 02:14:37 commented item B 02:14:47 umm, sbp, it was already titled that. 02:14:58 Notice: C: A subjective analysis of two high-level, object-oriented languages from sbp 02:15:11 oh well, there you go 02:15:20 C::"""The console test was impressive to me: Java's performance was *astonishingly* bad. Combined with the long initialisation time, this makes Java a completely unsuitable language for streams-based programming.""" 02:15:21 commented item C 02:15:38 Heh: 02:15:38 v=['a','b','c','d','e','f','g'] 02:15:38 vs. 02:15:38 Vector v = new Vector(); 02:15:38 v.addElement("a"); 02:15:39 v.addElement("b"); 02:15:41 v.addElement("c"); 02:15:43 v.addElement("d"); 02:15:45 v.addElement("e"); 02:15:47 v.addElement("f"); 02:15:49 v.addElement("g"); 02:15:51 OK, that does it for me. :) 02:16:00 I like the IO test 02:16:09 f=open('scratch','wb') 02:16:09 for i in xrange(1000000): 02:16:09 f.write(str(i)) 02:16:09 f.close() 02:16:11 vs. 02:16:17 import java.io.*; 02:16:17 public class IOTest 02:16:17 { 02:16:17 public static void main(String[] args) { 02:16:18 try { 02:16:19 File f = new File("scratch"); 02:16:22 PrintWriter ps = new PrintWriter(new OutputStreamWriter 02:16:23 (new FileOutputStream(f))); 02:16:25 for (int i = 0; i < 1000000; i++) { 02:16:27 ps.print(String.valueOf(i)); 02:16:29 } 02:16:31 ps.close(); 02:16:35 [...] 02:16:37 and so on... 02:16:38 I like the NoTest ;) 02:16:46 ooh, plus you could make the Python shorter 02:17:22 yeah, an infinite amount longer 02:17:48 C::"""[...] in order to do nothing in python, you write exactly that -- nothing. In order to successfully start up and do nothing in Java, you have to have a class definition with the correct name, with a main method...""" 02:17:49 commented item C 02:23:19 @ http://www.rogermasse.com/papers/java-python96/ 02:23:39 D: http://www.rogermasse.com/papers/java-python96/ from sbp 02:23:50 D::"""A typical [Python] program requires less then one-third the amount of source code than any of the C derived languages, including Java.""" 02:23:51 commented item D 02:24:07 D::"""Python offers programmers conciseness, simplicity, and the short test cycle benefits of an interpretive environment. These features combine to enable rapid prototyping with more building and less writing.""" 02:24:08 commented item D 02:24:22 sbp, what you need is a Python -> Java translater. :) 02:25:27 well, duh :-) 02:25:37 a PyJava wiould be good 02:25:50 Jython kinda goes the wrong way around for me 02:26:04 .xena PyJava 02:26:08 erm... 02:26:13 .google PyJava 02:26:14 PyJava: http://students.cs.byu.edu/~butler/jni/PyJava.html 02:26:44 D::"""Unlike Java, Python does not force the user to use object-orientation (Lutz, 1996, p53). As a result, the simplest programs are really simple.""" 02:26:45 commented item D 02:27:03 Yeah, that's what I like about Python -- it has bits from every style. 02:27:38 pff: "PyJava: Java Embedded in Python" 02:27:45 I want Python embedded in Java! 02:27:52 Isn't that Jython? 02:28:04 nope, that's Java functions in Python too 02:28:13 .google Jython 02:28:13 Umm, no. 02:28:14 Jython: http://www.jython.org 02:28:23 " Jython is an implementation of the high-level, dynamic, object-oriented language Python written in 100% Pure Java, and seamlessly integrated with the Java platform" 02:28:50 * sbp just read that bit too, and nearly sobbed in delight 02:28:59 HEH. 02:29:04 oops, capslock 02:29:53 wow, look at the size of the thing 02:30:06 heh 02:31:46 Ooh, Zooko made the Daily Python-URL 02:31:46 http://www.pythonware.com/daily/ 02:32:26 Aww, http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_441046.html 02:32:28 cool 02:32:41 The mommy gets to keep her Python 02:33:15 Oh, aweseom!!! The graph visualization is in Python! 02:35:46 Oh man, that rocks -- I'm going to have to make parse RDF, of course... 02:37:21 tansaku has quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds) 02:40:54 LOL! 8:54pm up 3 days, 2:13, 1 user, load average: 1006.55, 502.69, 198.22 02:41:15 tansaku (~sam@n146-243.tokyu-net.catv.ne.jp) has joined #swhack 02:41:18 wb 02:41:30 "You'd have to be mad to be Aaron Swartz" - Sean B. Palmer, #swhack 02:41:36 thanks dude 02:41:47 When'd you say that, sbp? 02:41:49 * tansaku goes to make coffee - short break this time 02:42:04 just now. It's not often I come up with stuff that good, so I want people to cite it correctly 02:42:10 Heh. 02:42:13 :-) 02:42:31 BTW, the load average was not for my machine. It was for someone else's where they caught a fork bomb 02:42:49 what's a "load average"? 02:42:56 heh, heh, just kidding... 02:43:15 got dem on solaris? 02:43:28 dunno. I try not to use Solaris 02:44:32 @ http://www.dil.univ-mrs.fr/~chris/CoursP/Lwall-quotes.html 02:44:36 E: Larry Wall Quotes ... from sbp 02:44:39 E::Wonderful stuff 02:44:40 commented item E 02:45:51 E::"""double value; /* or your money back! */ short changed; /* so triple your money back! */ --Larry Wall in cons.c from the perl source code""" 02:45:52 commented item E 02:46:17 Heh, putting a Larry Wall quote in a Python string can't be sensible... 02:48:47 Heh 02:54:54 @ http://www.wall.org/~larry/ 02:55:02 F: http://www.wall.org/~larry/ from sbp 02:55:23 F::Larry Wall is the only person I know who can put "I am Larry Wall" in his Geek Code 02:55:24 commented item F 02:55:30 Heh. 02:58:06 Heh: 02:58:08 "naughty = ['sex', 'fuck', 'masturb', 'horny', 'porn']" 02:58:11 from gnut.py 02:58:24 heh, heh 02:59:17 Ugh, TKinter isn't out for OS X yet. 03:00:28 heh, heh, heh 03:03:32 http://www.sims.berkeley.edu/%7Erachna/courses/infoviz/gtv/code/gtv.zip 03:03:46 err http://www.sims.berkeley.edu/%7Erachna/courses/infoviz/gtv/code/gtv_source.zip 03:05:01 * AaronSw uses BenSw's Linux box to try it... 03:05:49 Know of a gnutella host? 03:08:01 try Google, perhaps? 03:08:11 gnutella.hostsache.com, google says 03:08:20 Ooh, two nodes! 03:10:36 Hmm, doesn't seem to work behind my NAT box 03:10:56 still, pretty cool 03:13:09 Heh: "We don't want to see 'RTFM'. That isn't very helpful. Instead, guide the beginner to the place in the FM they should R :)" - http://learn.perl.org/beginners-faq 03:13:20 heh. 03:33:33 router.limewire.com 03:34:34 Do i need to punch a hole in my NAT/Firewall? 03:37:53 'pends 03:44:16 Gotta run 03:47:22 sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds) 03:57:00 GabeW (~gwachob@c1886218-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com) has joined #swhack 04:04:16 Wow, "Ruby in a Nutshell" is written by the author, and translated... http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/ruby/ 04:05:06 Hmm, from a quick glance, Ruby looks like a cross between Python and Perl. 04:06:31 hmm, that's sounds like a trainwreck, actually 04:10:27 hm, read the java vs python, looks like the main different is the absence of curly brackets ;-) 04:11:08 So for my python to work, I have to get the indentations perfect huh? 04:11:55 Well, not perfect -- it guves you some slack. 04:11:58 GabeW, my thoughts too 04:12:09 Like it'll trade tabs for spaces in most instances 04:12:15 i rarely have indentation problems 04:12:33 I mean i hated indentation rules in FORTRAN 04:12:58 if you are good at indenting code (which makes clean code anyway), you don't have to think about python indenting 04:13:02 Everyone comes into Python hating the indentation, but once you start coding, you don't notice it. 04:13:19 also - I use emacs or idle (comes with python) and those auto-indent 04:13:45 what about error handling - if I want to catch exceptions and use that as part of the control flow - do I have that option? 04:14:00 try: except: -- just like java 04:15:18 well, its try/catch in java 04:15:42 hmm - guess I'll have a hack this afternoon. 05:15:38 tav` is now known as tav\sleep 05:48:03 GabeW has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:48:09 GabeW (~gwachob@c1886218-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com) has joined #swhack 06:39:24 GabeW is now known as HiroProtagonist 06:40:38 HiroProtagonist has left #swhack 06:42:38 tansaku is now known as legally_scottish 06:45:48 legally_scottish is now known as tansaku_focusing_on_learning_p 06:46:18 tansaku_focusing_on_learning_p is now known as tansaku_focusing_on_python 07:07:12 HiroProtagonist (~gwachob@c1886218-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com) has joined #swhack 07:29:13 HiroProtagonist is now known as GabeW 07:47:16 tansaku_focusing_on_python is now known as tansaku_fails_to_work_on_pytho 07:52:06 tansaku_fails_to_work_on_pytho is now known as tansaku 08:02:59 GabeW has left #swhack 12:31:25 tansaku has quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds) 14:57:36 sbp (~sean@p57s06a06.client.global.net.uk) has joined #swhack 15:02:18 hey sbp 15:02:55 Hi there 15:08:24 sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds) 17:00:20 sbp (~sean@p9Fs10a06.client.global.net.uk) has joined #swhack 17:05:56 sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds) 18:02:08 tav\sleep is now known as tav` 18:26:27 GabeW (~gwachob@c1886218-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com) has joined #swhack 18:29:14 [GlobalNotice] Hi all. We have another major server upgrade to go, and it occurs to me that now would be a good time to ask people some questions that would help us schedule upgrades. We don't have a polling mechanism set up, but if you could take the time to send us two pieces of information, we'd appreciate it. 18:30:15 [GlobalNotice] Send the following information to support@openprojects.net: What server you use to connect to us, and what times would be least annoying for you to experience server downtime. Give us times you're least likely to be on the network. Thanks! 18:31:59 [GlobalNotice] To make it more clear, send the following data in an email to support@openprojects.net: (1) the server name you connect to us with, and (2) what times of day (including timezone in plain English) would be okay for us to recycle the servers (example, 2am to 5am Central European Time) 18:32:14 [GlobalNotice] Thanks all. 18:48:39 * AaronSw disconnects 18:49:11 * AaronSw reconnects 18:57:20 @ http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0590221973/coolbooks02 18:57:27 G: Amazon.com: Explore similar items from AaronSw 18:57:50 G:|A Drop of Water: A Book of Science and Wonder 18:57:51 titled item G 18:57:56 G::This book is so beautiful... 18:57:58 commented item G 19:09:41 Morbus (~Morbus@morbus.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack 19:10:53 G::By Walter Wick, the photographer of the [I Spy|http://www.scholastic.com/ispy/index.asp] series. 19:10:55 commented item G 19:11:05 hey AaronSw. how's life? 19:11:21 hey Morbus 19:11:24 i'm doing ok 19:11:39 my lower back kills. slept on it wrong. horrific. 19:11:48 ouch 19:11:50 will you be around tonight to read over my O'Reilly draft? 19:11:59 deltab too, if possible. 19:12:13 yeah, i should be 19:12:21 cool. thanks. 19:14:19 what are you writing Morbus 19:14:21 ? 19:14:54 an article for O'Reilly .net... apache / osx primer. 19:15:00 oh kewl 19:15:21 yah. i think so too :) ... they liked my evolt.org article, so offered me this one. 19:15:31 right on 19:17:27 I need to do some serious writing 19:18:10 what are you into? 19:18:42 Ooh, you could get an oreilly.net email address 19:18:56 morbus@oreilly.net .. heh. cool :) 19:19:06 you could really confuse some people. Heh 19:26:56 a lot of poeple liked that xml-rpc post. 19:27:16 that came out of left field 19:27:18 my point? "We do all this shit for our peers, not for normal consumption." 19:27:38 I'm in to beep for one thing 19:27:46 huh? 19:27:51 edd dumbill was going to write a beep article but never did 19:28:07 beep - http://www.beepcore.org - rfc 3080/3081 19:30:40 i'll take a look at this more in depth a bit later./ 19:31:32 * GabeW has ensnared another in the beep web 19:31:40 heh. 19:31:53 gabew, ever played with amphetadesk? 19:31:55 clearly, more people need to write beep articles 19:31:59 no 19:32:06 http://www.disobey.com/amphetadesk/ 19:32:18 * AaronSw learned about BXXP from the New York Times 19:32:33 I was like "XML Protocol" -- I need some of this. 19:32:47 heh 19:33:03 is this rss? 19:33:06 (amphetadesk) 19:33:10 or scriptingNews, yes. 19:33:34 oh kewl - your own personal rss aggregator 19:33:56 right. templates are customizable, its open source, binaried for win/mac, blah blah blah. 19:35:18 now running on my mahine 19:35:30 lemme know what you think. 19:35:40 * Morbus has ensnared another into using AmphetaDesk 19:36:48 where do channels come from? 19:36:55 a goose. 19:37:06 syndic8.com is your best bet right now. 19:37:11 the included feed list is pretty outta date. 19:37:49 A "channel" is just a RSS url? 19:39:39 right. 19:40:09 slick 19:43:54 :) 19:44:01 you like? 19:44:29 yeah, I'd like a prettier view though 19:44:59 change it yerself, bub ;)( 19:45:03 see docs/skinning.htm 19:45:11 or just start modifying the templates in templates/ 19:45:17 there's a commented set for you to learn from too. 19:45:30 the current template is the one sitting in the root of templates/ 19:45:35 the others are just placeholders./ 19:47:59 ok, well, I'll get there 19:48:13 how often are the rss feeds hit? 19:49:06 right now, if you leave ampheta open, they're only hit once - upon startup. 19:49:34 ignoring that, rss feeds are checked once an hour and only downloaded if teh date modified is diff, the file size is diff, or if neither can be determined. 19:50:13 in the next version, they'll be a "check every X hours" option when ampheta is running. 19:50:16 defaulting to 1. 19:50:53 I'd like to be able to mark feeds "read" so they aren't shown every time I load the page 19:51:12 that doesn't scale if you have 300 feeds. 19:51:15 but, that's planned. 19:51:27 well, I'm not sure this is useful with 300 feeds anyway ;-) 19:51:30 they'll be a couple of different ways of saying "this is read". 19:51:40 heh. i have a user who has 250+ feeds. wacko ;) 19:51:57 I'd like to just to remove a feed and don't show it to me again until the feed has changed 19:52:16 yup. that stuff wont happen until after 1.0. but its planned. 19:52:22 kewl 19:52:31 what is amphetadesk written in? 19:52:32 the TODO on the CVS has the latest thoughts. 19:52:33 Woohoo, hard drive came 19:52:34 perl. 19:52:37 ooh 19:52:40 Oooh? 19:52:46 how big, AaronSw? 19:52:52 We'll see in a sec... 19:52:53 * GabeW is a recovering perl hacker 19:52:58 hehehe. 19:53:06 i don't think i'll ever want to recover ;) 19:53:07 * GabeW has seen the true light - python 19:53:12 I checked my UPS package tracker, and it said "Delivered" and I said "Delivered?!" so i went outside and it was there! 19:53:13 bah! 19:53:25 actually, I've actuall gotten so annoyted with Python that I've been forcing myself to do things with shell scripts 19:53:26 python! 19:53:34 sorry annoyted with perl 19:53:48 phew, thought you were a traitor there for a sec 19:53:51 annoyed with *perl* 19:53:53 *perl* 19:53:58 when AaronSw can show me how to create a runtime'd app for win/mac that doesn't require python or other libs installed, i'll look into it. 19:54:08 ah - this is compiled perl? 19:54:12 speaking of which, did you get that tidbits email i sent you? 19:54:16 Morbus, that's already available 19:54:17 yeah, its compiled for mac / win. 19:54:20 Morbus, yes, 2 times 19:54:29 twice? 19:54:31 i sent it once. 19:54:31 Morbus, download MacPython -- let's you compile for Mac 19:54:37 once from you, once from Adam ;) 19:54:41 heheheeh. 19:55:00 AaronSw, that compiles any external libs you use too? 19:55:05 and is there a similar thingy for windows? 19:55:09 Yeah, think so 19:55:12 i know there's one for win 19:55:17 what's the gui in python? 19:55:21 native? or tk? 19:55:24 or something else? 19:55:27 yes 19:55:34 yes to what.' 19:55:38 there are a variety of gui toolkits - 19:55:43 wow, this HD is small 19:55:43 wxpython looks nice 19:55:53 30GB 19:55:59 i mean small physically 19:56:01 wxpython doesn't get bundled, last i knew, meaning you'd have to have a secondary install of wx to have it owkr. 19:56:07 i'd rather have small hd's anyways 19:56:14 uh, I'm pretty sure you could bundle it with a binary install 19:56:38 http://starship.python.net/crew/gmcm/distribute.html 19:56:44 bundle the libs into the .exe, or bundle the archive into the distrbution? 19:56:49 ah 19:56:52 that'd make it, what, a 10 meg install? 19:57:14 ok, bbl, time to install HD 19:57:23 good luck 19:57:37 thanks 19:57:49 there is python2c 19:58:14 theres always jpython 19:58:17 i guess one of my problems is dependcy on stuff i can't control. 19:58:56 ampheta uses native perl libraries for win32. i could have used tk, but didn't. 19:58:57 Morbus has left #swhack 20:00:35 Hmm, backing up is going to be a pain 20:00:48 * AaronSw waves a final goodbye 20:01:42 Morbus (~Morbus@morbus.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack 20:01:47 bah. stupid buttons. 20:02:29 anyway, need to do some real work - writing, no less 20:02:36 heh. whatcha writing? 20:03:10 writing a bunch of stuff for our client (i'm half a consulting company - http://www.wiredobjects.com) 20:03:12 great. someone just spammed with my email address. 20:03:32 .google mick bass 20:03:33 mick bass: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-dspace/2001May/0007.html 20:03:56