00:00:00 wow, it must be getting dark early over there 00:00:24 Oh? It's really dark out -- I overslept. 00:00:26 .time 00:00:37 :-) 00:00:54 hmz, xena's gone 00:00:59 taking a catnap? 00:01:16 I was just remembering a conversation someone had with me about the light and dark of The Doors 00:02:31 Yeah, I had a nice nap. No cats were involved tho. 00:02:38 light and dark of The Doors? 00:03:28 sbp has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 00:08:21 sbp (~sean@AC823DBA.ipt.aol.com) has joined #swhack 00:10:48 wb 00:11:01 ty 00:11:08 np 00:11:16 :-) 00:11:19 Why'd I get disconnected? Hmm. 00:12:04 Heh: * timzzzz waiting for cwm to run ..... 00:12:09 Waiting so long he fell asleep... 00:12:37 heh, heh! 00:13:37 it's cool how The Doors had that balance of dark and light, isn't it? 00:13:52 what's the time at your home, aaron? 00:13:59 6:15PM 00:14:10 uhh... where are you living??? 00:14:23 right in the center of the US 00:14:30 in a -6 timezone :-) 00:14:36 *ggg* 00:15:56 AaronSw has changed the topic to: [GlobalNotice] We're nearing the end of tonight's, uh, festivities. 00:16:24 that sounds ominous 00:16:55 "party's over folks, go home!" 00:16:59 Yeah, from the looks of the logs, it was. 00:17:13 They "recycled" 1000s of users, whatever that means. 00:17:46 threw them in a bin and sent them off to Greenpeace, I think 00:18:19 yo know Soylent Green? 00:18:33 yeah 00:18:59 I don't think Greenpeace would want to eat people though, just recycle them 00:21:31 I'll bet that Greenpeace don't recycle. They probably put it in a landfill when everyone's turned around 00:21:53 it's a conspiracy! 00:22:57 Heh 00:25:35 Seth Russell: "But for a standards body [RDF Core] in the 21st century to so casually legislate away the wisdom of philosophers like Pierce and James with a stoke of the pen is going to be taken by some of us as quite arrogant." 00:25:52 yeah, I like that bit 00:26:23 ick, www-rdf-comments is a mess. 00:26:41 get Gerald to do a bit of housekeeping 00:28:20 I should, shouldn't I. 00:28:43 :-) 00:29:36 Pah, lazy git. He's in Amsterdam and Paris. 00:32:26 * AaronSw has given up reading rdf core email 00:32:32 * AaronSw has mostly given up reading email 00:32:58 yeah, I know the feeling. I got an incredible amount of spam this morning: all from one place 00:33:41 "Summer days, summer nights are gone. I know a place where there's still soemthing going on." 00:35:53 Hmm, http://infomesh.net/2001/05/notation3/ is hit #2 for "Notation3 Primer" 00:36:15 * AaronSw has been singing "Make a Little Birdhouse in Your Soul" all day... 00:36:40 "I have a secret to tell / From my electrical well / It's a simple message and I'm leaving out the whistles and bells." 00:36:57 what's hit #1? 00:37:14 Tim's Primer, of course. 00:37:19 :-) 00:38:33 * sbp is playing "Love And Theft" 00:38:47 I would have thought I'd be sick of it by now... but no way 00:38:59 I learned how to play "Moonlight" on the guitar 00:38:59 @ http://wmf.editthispage.com/discuss/msgReader$6200?mode=topic 00:39:04 A: Hack the Planet Prime: RDF Torture Test from AaronSw 00:39:18 A::Would you pass the RDF Torture Test? 00:39:19 commented item A 00:41:52 sbp has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 00:46:24 Heh heh heh: http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/01nov/xuf003657.gif 00:47:31 TMBG actually has some good songs, like "XTC vs. Atom Ant" 00:47:43 s/good/musically interesting/ 00:50:11 sbp (~sean@AC9491A8.ipt.aol.com) has joined #swhack 00:51:01 @ http://www.technologyreview.com/magazine/may01/scorecard.asp 00:51:07 B: http://www.technologyreview.com/magazine/may01/scorecard.asp from AaronSw 00:51:35 G:|The Technology Review Patent Scorecard 2001 00:51:51 G::I can think of a lot of MITers who might not use this for what it was intended for... 00:51:57 heh: For all of the RDF people who aren't teaching us something, let's put them all in bags (in groups of three) and reify them until their URIs bulge out or they start schemaing. 00:52:00 G? 00:52:08 Oops 00:52:11 B:|The Technology Review Patent Scorecard 2001 00:52:12 titled item B 00:52:14 B::I can think of a lot of MITers who might not use this for what it was intended for... 00:52:15 commented item B 00:52:36 B::I love quotes like these: "An indicator of a firm's speed in turning leading-edge technology into intellectual property, defined as the median age (in years) of the U.S. patents cited as prior art in the company's patents." 00:52:37 commented item B 00:52:50 A::"For all of the RDF people who aren't teaching us something, let's put them all in bags (in groups of three) and reify them until their URIs bulge out or they start schemaing." 00:52:50 commented item A 00:53:34 @ http://wmf.editthispage.com/2001/11/16 00:53:38 C: Hack the Planet Prime: from AaronSw 00:53:45 C:|Wes Felter Speaks Out 00:53:46 titled item C 00:54:09 C::[To Dr. Gelernter|http://www.techreview.com/magazine/dec01/tristram.asp]: "Dr. Gelernter, if Lifestreams is so great, why not release a version people can afford?" 00:54:10 commented item C 00:54:55 C::[To Joel Spolsky's "What does CityDesk do?|http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000010.html]: "Looks like it creates URLs with lots of digits in them." 00:54:55 commented item C 00:55:58 C::He also blogs [some Shaney-quotes|http://wmf.editthispage.com/2001/11/15]. I invited Shaney into #infoAnarchy that night... 00:55:59 commented item C 00:56:11 sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 185 seconds) 00:57:34 C::BTW, Joel, what does [this picture|http://www.joelonsoftware.com/head1.jpg] have to do with you, software, or painless software management? 00:57:35 commented item C 01:01:48 sbp (~sean@p06s13a06.client.global.net.uk) has joined #swhack 01:02:49 Weird: http://www.whowouldyoukill.com/ 01:04:22 sbp, can you enlighten me as to the difference between equivalentTo and sameIndividualAs? 01:05:06 Gotta run, dinner 01:05:12 not really. sameIndividualAs has a domain and range of daml:Thing, which is the only difference 01:05:13 c'ya 01:05:26 elmaestro has quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds) 01:05:57 elmaestro (inets@B5866.pppool.de) has joined #swhack 01:08:05 What's the domain/range of equivalentTo? 01:08:16 rdfs:Resource 01:08:30 Hmm, what's the difference between Thing and Resource? 01:08:34 no idea 01:08:43 a thing is that which is not nothing 01:09:11 Heh. 01:10:09 (or the complement of nothing) 01:10:42 Ok, c'ya. (Complements to the Chef!) 01:10:45 ;-) 01:11:04 Off to see Harry Potter... 01:11:55 [[[ 01:11:55 Two class names are already predefined, namely the classes daml:Thing and daml:Nothing. Every object is a member of daml:Thing, and no object is a member daml:Nothing. Consequently, every class is a subclass of daml:Thing and daml:Nothing is a subclass of every class. 01:12:00 ]]] - http://www.daml.org/2001/03/reference.html 01:12:02 c'ya 01:12:07 have fun! review it for me 01:12:48 Gotta run 01:14:17 elmaestro has quit ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.1") 01:14:36 sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 187 seconds) 03:22:34 GabeW (~gwachob@c1886218-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com) has joined #swhack 03:48:44 sbp (~sean@pBAs10a06.client.global.net.uk) has joined #swhack 03:48:54 * GabeW slaps sbp heartily on the back 03:49:18 Hi there 03:49:27 * sbp was doing more Java programming... Certainly needs a break! 04:01:53 * sbp learns a bit of C++ just for a laugh 04:03:25 starts out like Java... 04:03:34 and then an "end if" creeps in 04:05:42 * sbp is flicking through http://www.intap.net/~drw/cpp/ BTW 04:06:55 oh man, give me Python... 04:07:28 ok, I'll give you python ;-) 04:08:22 :-) 04:09:54 sometimes, I wish we had smalltalk - its just so pure, but python is pretty durn good 04:10:59 python certainly is more conventional and practical I think 04:11:05 yeah; even the significant whitespace is quite a nice feature once you get used to evenly spacing stuff 04:11:25 practical: certainly! You start typing out some lines... and a program forms. It's odd 04:11:50 You don't spend ages putting in any syntactic junk: no brackets, no typing, no rubbish 04:12:03 have you played with smalltalk? Its supposed to be the most productive language out there (but that was before python) ;-) 04:12:32 * sbp is just going through the documentation now, as it happens 04:12:53 which documentation? 04:13:13 heh: ""I invented the term Object-Oriented, and I can tell you I did not have C++ in mind." 04:13:13 — Alan Kay 04:13:13 " 04:13:23 hehe 04:13:24 heh! 04:13:26 [[[ 04:13:26 "Claiming Java is easier than C++ is like saying that K2 is shorter than Everest." 04:13:26 — Larry O'Brien (editor, Software Development) 04:13:26 ]]] 04:13:34 both from http://www.smalltalk.org/main.html 04:13:38 right 04:14:47 O.K., where do I go to learn about it then, please? 04:16:27 go to squeak.org 04:16:51 I am not a smalltalk guru 04:17:36 * sbp finds a few things 04:17:42 http://ite.gmu.edu/~enorris/363/smalltalk/gnu_manual.html 04:17:49 http://squeak.cs.uiuc.edu/cphoenix_tutorial/intro.html 04:17:53 http://kaka.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~wolfgang/cosc205/smalltalk1.html 04:18:12 http://www.cetus-links.org/oo_smalltalk.html 04:18:17 pff: http://ite.gmu.edu/~enorris/363/smalltalk/part1.html 04:18:23 cetus has soo many links about oo languages and concepts 04:21:34 sbp has quit ("Homer: 20 dollars? I wanted a peanut!") 04:21:52 sbp (~sean@pBAs10a06.client.global.net.uk) has joined #swhack 04:22:03 did you get the cetus link? 04:22:22 oops, closed the wrong window :-) 04:22:24 yes, thanks 04:22:28 logster, grep 1-10 cetus 04:22:34 I'm logging. I found 4 answers for 'cetus' (showing 1...4) 04:22:35 1) 2001-11-18 04:22:03 did you get the cetus link? 04:22:36 2) 2001-11-18 04:18:23 cetus has soo many links about oo languages and concepts 04:22:37 3) 2001-11-18 04:18:12 http://www.cetus-links.org/oo_smalltalk.html 04:22:53 and thanks to ol' logster there, I know where to find it :-) 04:23:10 kwelio 04:23:50 logster, grep -i kwelio 04:23:58 I'm logging. I found 2 answers for 'kwelio' 04:23:59 0) 2001-11-18 04:23:50 logster, grep -i kwelio 04:24:00 1) 2001-11-18 04:23:10 kwelio 04:24:39 Hmm... if logster fails us, we usually have xena, but she must be off fanning tav with a palm tree leaf or something 04:30:58 are you reading up on smalltalk? 04:31:48 I'm trying to keep awake :-) 04:32:03 I've saved some Smalltalk stuff, I'll read it when I'ma bit less tired 04:32:29 oh yeah, that's always a good thing 04:32:35 Its only 8:34pm here 04:33:09 It's 4:30ish AM here... 04:33:40 oh shit 04:34:16 yeah. And I've been programming Java... I shouldn't attempt these sort of things :-) 04:34:35 well, smalltalk will make sooo much sense and you'll really really appreciate it given java 04:35:11 is it possible to write decent apps in smalltalk? What sort of stuff is it generally used for? 04:36:17 well, some people claim to do big projects in smalltalk - you familiar with the Gang of Four (Design patterns)? 04:37:15 vaguely 04:37:19 they wrote a book 04:37:53 yeah, Design Patterns 04:38:01 Anyway, they were SmallTalk heads 04:38:36 ah: http://hillside.net/patterns/DPBook/GOF.html 04:38:52 yeah 04:40:15 part of the problem with smalltalk is that there weren't many standard open source or freely available implementations for a long while (I think) 04:40:32 now, its changed, but I think it is too late 04:41:04 smalltalk is like python in the sense of having extremely simple syntac 04:41:08 syntax 04:41:15 and also is pure oo 04:41:20 even more so than python 04:41:26 *everything* is an object 04:42:17 yeah, I noticed that... quite a neat way of going about things 04:43:31 there are a couple of smalltalk-derived languages - objective C, self (I think) 04:44:40 some would say, python, java 05:06:57 logster, grep 1-10 -i sun 05:07:02 I'm logging. I found 1 answer for '-i sun' (showing 1...1) 05:07:15 gprgmprmgprmgrh 05:07:20 logster, grep -1 1-10 sun 05:07:29 I'm logging. I found 1 answer for '-1 1-10 sun' 05:07:30 0) 2001-11-18 05:07:20 logster, grep -1 1-10 sun 05:07:32 aaaaaargh! 05:07:32 logster, grep -i 1-10 sun 05:07:39 I'm logging. I found 40 answers for 'sun' (showing 1...10) 05:07:40 1) 2001-11-18 05:07:20 logster, grep -1 1-10 sun 05:07:41 2) 2001-11-18 05:06:57 logster, grep 1-10 -i sun 05:07:42 3) 2001-11-15 23:49:41 the sun can burn in hell. 05:07:43 4) 2001-11-14 03:52:30 * AaronSw receives metor spam: "Don't forget the Leonid meteor shower Sunday at 4:00 AM, it is supposed to the best in 35 years 800 to 1000 meteor per hour!!" 05:07:44 5) 2001-11-12 15:32:18 wendy has quit (...sunny days, sweeping the clouds away...) 05:07:45 6) 2001-10-31 21:50:12 "Sad to be leveing, the sun's going down and I've really got to go now" 05:07:46 7) 2001-10-29 03:46:42 TV Listings beginning: W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> TV Guide Online - [TV Listings] October 28, 2001 Listings For: San Diego - Time Warner CableSat 27Sun 28Mon 29Tue 30Wed 31Thu 1Fri 2Sat 3Sun 4Mon 5Tue 6Wed 7Thu 8Fri 9Sat 10Sun 1112:00 AM12:30 AM1:00 AM1:30 AM2:00 AM2:30 AM3:00 AM3:30 AM4:00 AM4:30 AM5:00 AM5:30 AM6:00 AM6:30 AM7:00 AM7:30 AM8:00 AM8:30 AM9:00 AM9:30 AM10:00 AM10:30 05:07:47 8) 2001-10-27 19:51:38 .google Java unencodeURL site:java.sun.com 05:07:48 9) 2001-10-27 19:51:16 "Mean Mr. Mustard" Lyrics: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/9720 05:07:49 10) 2001-10-27 19:48:47 aha: http://java.sun.com/products/servlet/2.1/api/javax.servlet.http.HttpServletResponse.html 05:08:02 logster, grep -i 1-10 Solaris 05:08:11 I'm logging. I found 2 answers for 'Solaris' (showing 1...2) 05:08:12 1) 2001-10-29 23:04:00 Why is tripwire using up so much CPU: http://www.sans.org/infosecFAQ/unix/sec_solaris2.htm 05:08:21 sbp - what are you looking for? 05:09:33 Aaron's comments on Solaris 05:11:48 what comments 05:12:54 dunno. That's why I'm trying to find them :-) 05:13:12 how do you know he said anything? 05:13:43 I believe that it is in my memory 05:14:04 whether or not that correlates adequately to what actually happened in real life is the thing that I am investigating now 05:14:05 what sort of thing? 05:14:13 thing? 05:14:31 what sort of thing did you remember him saying? 05:14:52 I'm not sure. It's a possibility it was off log, or off reality 05:14:59 a response to you saying you're using solaris? 05:15:23 a response to me saying something like "yo, A-ster. What's up Solaris, man?" 05:15:46 oh, right 05:16:29 ah, I'm right. It may or may not have been discussed 05:16:32 000944Z yo, iff-man. The A-ster wants you 05:16:32 000954Z the asster? 05:16:32 001018Z don't make me kick you... 05:16:44 heh, heh 05:17:09 man, amaya would be great if it didn't crash every 3 minutes 05:17:30 Amaya: yeah, and if all the other little bits were fixed 05:17:57 I can't really use it 05:18:05 it crashes so regularly 05:18:25 hi there 05:18:54 hi 05:18:54 yo, A-ster. What's up Solaris, man? 05:19:10 er.. add a preposition in there somewhere 05:19:24 Solaris, eh? 05:19:33 yeah, totally 05:19:38 AaronSw has changed the topic to: Hagrid: "Had a bit of trouble flying over Bristol, though." 05:19:45 Heh heh heh. 05:19:52 That was quite funny. 05:19:59 I can assure you it was danbri's fault 05:20:02 what was? 05:20:07 what's going on? 05:20:39 At the beginning of Harry Potter, Hagrid flys in on a flying motorcycle. 05:21:01 And they ask him how it went... 05:21:02 ugh, now you've spoiled the whole thing! well, thanks a lot 05:21:14 "'Twas ok, had a bit of trouble flying over Bristol, though." 05:21:20 heh, that is pretty funny though 05:21:37 DanBri was probably slingshotting RDF books at them 05:22:52 so anyway... what with you is there up? 05:22:54 lol! 05:25:26 well, my typing accuracy has decresed suffiencty that it merts me going to bed 05:25:38 and it merits you going to beed 05:25:40 bed 05:25:58 and intelligability is alo appeering to be going down to th point were I really should be off going as well 05:26:09 ah no wy 05:26:15 intelligibility 05:26:24 ugh, and now I get another ERT mail! Just as I was preparing to go... the cheek of it 05:26:34 s/the/The/ 05:26:50 spot the typo:- 05:26:51 [[[ 05:26:52 The WCAG reporting is based on Rick Joliffe's Schematron 05:26:53 ]]] 05:27:16 Joliffe != Jeliffe? 05:27:44 yeah. neat typo, though 05:27:52 Hmm, Chaals reminds me of Hagrid. 05:27:58 *sigh* I suppose I'd better retrieve a source for that utterance 05:28:04 go to sleep 05:28:04 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-er-ig/2001Nov/0023 05:28:12 yeah, I really should :-) 05:28:17 He's just the sort of fellow who'd have trouble flying over Bristol too... 05:28:45 danbri'd love to fling books at him! 05:28:50 heh, heh! 05:29:30 * sbp decides to take Gabe's advice 05:29:47 c'ya 05:30:23 bye 05:30:52 I wish people would tell me to go to bed sometime 05:30:56 goodnight 05:31:48 GabeW, stay up late and party. 05:32:14 sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds) 05:33:50 no no 05:34:15 logster, awake 05:34:15 I'm logging. I don't understand 'awake', AaronSw. Try /msg logster help 05:36:08 @ http://wmf.editthispage.com/discuss/msgReader$6245 05:36:13 D: Hack the Planet Prime: n3 syntax is good (Re: RDF Torture Test) from AaronSw 05:36:22 D:|David McCusker likes N3 05:36:23 titled item D 05:36:29 D::"(Yes, that means I found a chat session between AaronSw and sbp. :-)" 05:36:30 commented item D 05:37:09 D::"It not only doesn't suck, it's good and rational. Kudos, that will work. I can support that without the twinge of horror that RDF in XML gives me." 05:37:11 commented item D 05:37:30 wmf (wesf@cs242724-5.austin.rr.com) has joined #swhack 05:37:45 D::"I'm happy to see someone who has a feel for real computing language design helped with n3." [...] "If you need help beating up any idiot who wants to subvert the simplicity, I'll consider helping. I know my vote doesn't count for much. But I suspect Aaron might be pleased there's something I don't vehemently oppose in the RDF camp now that the n3 syntax exists." 05:37:46 commented item D 05:37:53 the bots are growing in number 05:37:55 hey wes 05:37:59 oh? 05:38:09 soon they will rise up against us! 05:38:13 Oh dear. 05:38:17 wmf is following me around in irc-space 05:38:19 but anyway: 05:38:19 Good thing we killed off xena. 05:38:39 why does n3 put <> around almost everything? 05:39:02 Oh? Just URIs. 05:39:14 that's to tell a URI from a literal, no? 05:39:22 well, it seems almost everything in RDF is a URI 05:39:31 I am looking at http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/Primer.html 05:39:33 literals or URIs 05:40:02 The R in RDF is the same R in URI 05:40:09 right 05:40:32 wmf, Have you gotten to the part where he defines namespaces? 05:40:46 In real N3, you almost never see <>s 05:40:49 my point is: what would it hurt to assume that anything that's not a string is a URI 05:40:58 yeah, I'm just getting to that part, which makes it better 05:41:14 If you take that assumption, then you get semEnglish, which apparently, works... it just makes me feel creepy. 05:41:29 because http://foo.org is take as a special case of local:suffix 05:42:09 In reality, the real problem is those nasty colons... 05:42:10 :this :is "normal" 05:42:17 Yeah, that's it. 05:44:27 "The owners of the next two ontologies retain all rights, so you should not copy them for the purposes of making your own ontology." ahem, what kind of BS is that? 05:44:43 where's that from? 05:44:52 .google " owners of the next two ontologies retain all rights" 05:44:53 from http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/Examples.html 05:45:43 Hmm. I guess there was a copyright on them? 05:45:56 * GabeW puts on his lawyer hat 05:46:09 * TimBL takes his director hat off 05:46:13 APIs are not copyrightable; I don't see what ontologies should be 05:46:17 I think ontologies would be considered "original" enough to be copyrightable 05:46:33 Hmm, APIs aren't copyrightable? That's cool. 05:46:36 but that's a little disturbing, because its getting close to being 'facts' which are not copyrightable 05:47:03 Well, I don't know if that particular issue (APIs) have been lititgated 05:47:09 if ontologies are copyrightable, then schemas probably are too, which seems pretty bad 05:47:20 yeah, you are correct 05:47:42 on the one hand, I think there are decisions saying that yellow page categories are not protectable under copyright 05:48:03 but this could be different - its not clear at all 05:48:23 I don't think TimBL was in the mood to litigate it, so he put that notice up to shut folks up. 05:48:31 I think the API copyright issue has been litigated; it's certainly similar to the BIOS and video game reverse engineering cases at any rate 05:48:39 I mean, to some extent rules are code, and code can be copyrighted, no? 05:49:14 Hmm, neither seem to involve rules, tho... 05:50:06 well, yeah, but reverse engineering is something different than copying substantially an API 05:50:20 reverse engineering is something that copyright doesn't prevent 05:50:27 (in general) 05:51:43 BenSw (~yoda@c930384-a.hlndpk1.il.home.com) has joined #swhack 05:51:47 Hello 05:52:03 its very hard to answer these questions without actual litigation - anything less is the province of legal scholarship 05:52:07 the two cases I mentioned dealt with the fact that building something new that implements an existing API necessarily requires copying stuff like function names 05:52:34 and the courts ruled that those are not copyrightable 05:53:12 the idea is that you can't extend copyright beyond the exclusive rights that copyright grants (copy, use, prepare derivate works, perform) 05:54:00 and preventing the reverse engineering has usually been considered "outside" those rights held by a copyright holder 05:54:31 right, but it wasn't completely clear whether a program that implements an API is a derivate work of the API documentation (since they contain strings in common) 05:54:51 unless we are talking about anti-circumvention technologies (in a post-DMCA world..) 05:54:52 there are a lot of questions like this you bring up , wmf, and that's why its not settled law, afaik 05:55:24 luckily the precedent that exists is going in the direction I like 05:56:07 until it isn't ;-) 05:56:45 * GabeW takes off his lawyer hat cuz it hurts and he's not really a lawyer 05:57:00 anyway, sorry for the non-SW digression 05:57:19 this channel is for non-sequiturs 05:57:22 ask AaronSw 05:57:40