IRC log of swhack on 2001-11-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:00:00 [sbp]
wow, it must be getting dark early over there
00:00:24 [AaronSw]
Oh? It's really dark out -- I overslept.
00:00:26 [AaronSw]
.time
00:00:37 [sbp]
:-)
00:00:54 [AaronSw]
hmz, xena's gone
00:00:59 [sbp]
taking a catnap?
00:01:16 [sbp]
I was just remembering a conversation someone had with me about the light and dark of The Doors
00:02:31 [AaronSw]
Yeah, I had a nice nap. No cats were involved tho.
00:02:38 [AaronSw]
light and dark of The Doors?
00:03:28 [sbp]
sbp has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
00:08:21 [sbp]
sbp (~sean@AC823DBA.ipt.aol.com) has joined #swhack
00:10:48 [AaronSw]
wb
00:11:01 [sbp]
ty
00:11:08 [AaronSw]
np
00:11:16 [sbp]
:-)
00:11:19 [AaronSw]
Why'd I get disconnected? Hmm.
00:12:04 [AaronSw]
Heh: * timzzzz waiting for cwm to run .....
00:12:09 [AaronSw]
Waiting so long he fell asleep...
00:12:37 [sbp]
heh, heh!
00:13:37 [sbp]
it's cool how The Doors had that balance of dark and light, isn't it?
00:13:52 [elmaestro]
what's the time at your home, aaron?
00:13:59 [AaronSw]
6:15PM
00:14:10 [elmaestro]
uhh... where are you living???
00:14:23 [AaronSw]
right in the center of the US
00:14:30 [sbp]
in a -6 timezone :-)
00:14:36 [elmaestro]
*ggg*
00:15:56 [AaronSw]
AaronSw has changed the topic to: <lilo> [GlobalNotice] We're nearing the end of tonight's, uh, festivities.
00:16:24 [sbp]
that sounds ominous
00:16:55 [sbp]
"party's over folks, go home!"
00:16:59 [AaronSw]
Yeah, from the looks of the logs, it was.
00:17:13 [AaronSw]
They "recycled" 1000s of users, whatever that means.
00:17:46 [sbp]
threw them in a bin and sent them off to Greenpeace, I think
00:18:19 [deltab]
yo know Soylent Green?
00:18:33 [sbp]
yeah
00:18:59 [sbp]
I don't think Greenpeace would want to eat people though, just recycle them
00:21:31 [sbp]
I'll bet that Greenpeace don't recycle. They probably put it in a landfill when everyone's turned around
00:21:53 [sbp]
it's a conspiracy!
00:22:57 [AaronSw]
Heh
00:25:35 [AaronSw]
Seth Russell: "But for a standards body [RDF Core] in the 21st century to so casually legislate away the wisdom of philosophers like Pierce and James with a stoke of the pen is going to be taken by some of us as quite arrogant."
00:25:52 [sbp]
yeah, I like that bit
00:26:23 [AaronSw]
ick, www-rdf-comments is a mess.
00:26:41 [sbp]
get Gerald to do a bit of housekeeping
00:28:20 [AaronSw]
I should, shouldn't I. <sigh>
00:28:43 [sbp]
:-)
00:29:36 [AaronSw]
Pah, lazy git. He's in Amsterdam and Paris.
00:32:26 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw has given up reading rdf core email
00:32:32 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw has mostly given up reading email
00:32:58 [sbp]
yeah, I know the feeling. I got an incredible amount of spam this morning: all from one place
00:33:41 [sbp]
"Summer days, summer nights are gone. I know a place where there's still soemthing going on."
00:35:53 [AaronSw]
Hmm, http://infomesh.net/2001/05/notation3/ is hit #2 for "Notation3 Primer"
00:36:15 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw has been singing "Make a Little Birdhouse in Your Soul" all day...
00:36:40 [AaronSw]
"I have a secret to tell / From my electrical well / It's a simple message and I'm leaving out the whistles and bells."
00:36:57 [sbp]
what's hit #1?
00:37:14 [AaronSw]
Tim's Primer, of course.
00:37:19 [sbp]
:-)
00:38:33 [sbp]
* sbp is playing "Love And Theft"
00:38:47 [sbp]
I would have thought I'd be sick of it by now... but no way
00:38:59 [sbp]
I learned how to play "Moonlight" on the guitar
00:38:59 [AaronSw]
@ http://wmf.editthispage.com/discuss/msgReader$6200?mode=topic
00:39:04 [chumpster]
A: Hack the Planet Prime: RDF Torture Test from AaronSw
00:39:18 [AaronSw]
A::Would you pass the RDF Torture Test?
00:39:19 [chumpster]
commented item A
00:41:52 [sbp]
sbp has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
00:46:24 [AaronSw]
Heh heh heh: http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/01nov/xuf003657.gif
00:47:31 [AaronSw]
TMBG actually has some good songs, like "XTC vs. Atom Ant"
00:47:43 [AaronSw]
s/good/musically interesting/
00:50:11 [sbp]
sbp (~sean@AC9491A8.ipt.aol.com) has joined #swhack
00:51:01 [AaronSw]
@ http://www.technologyreview.com/magazine/may01/scorecard.asp
00:51:07 [chumpster]
B: http://www.technologyreview.com/magazine/may01/scorecard.asp from AaronSw
00:51:35 [AaronSw]
G:|The Technology Review Patent Scorecard 2001
00:51:51 [AaronSw]
G::I can think of a lot of MITers who might not use this for what it was intended for...
00:51:57 [sbp]
heh: For all of the RDF people who aren't teaching us something, let's put them all in bags (in groups of three) and reify them until their URIs bulge out or they start schemaing.
00:52:00 [sbp]
G?
00:52:08 [AaronSw]
Oops
00:52:11 [AaronSw]
B:|The Technology Review Patent Scorecard 2001
00:52:12 [chumpster]
titled item B
00:52:14 [AaronSw]
B::I can think of a lot of MITers who might not use this for what it was intended for...
00:52:15 [chumpster]
commented item B
00:52:36 [AaronSw]
B::I love quotes like these: "An indicator of a firm's speed in turning leading-edge technology into intellectual property, defined as the median age (in years) of the U.S. patents cited as prior art in the company's patents."
00:52:37 [chumpster]
commented item B
00:52:50 [AaronSw]
A::"For all of the RDF people who aren't teaching us something, let's put them all in bags (in groups of three) and reify them until their URIs bulge out or they start schemaing."
00:52:50 [chumpster]
commented item A
00:53:34 [AaronSw]
@ http://wmf.editthispage.com/2001/11/16
00:53:38 [chumpster]
C: Hack the Planet Prime: from AaronSw
00:53:45 [AaronSw]
C:|Wes Felter Speaks Out
00:53:46 [chumpster]
titled item C
00:54:09 [AaronSw]
C::[To Dr. Gelernter|http://www.techreview.com/magazine/dec01/tristram.asp]: "Dr. Gelernter, if Lifestreams is so great, why not release a version people can afford?"
00:54:10 [chumpster]
commented item C
00:54:55 [AaronSw]
C::[To Joel Spolsky's "What does CityDesk do?|http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000010.html]: "Looks like it creates URLs with lots of digits in them."
00:54:55 [chumpster]
commented item C
00:55:58 [AaronSw]
C::He also blogs [some Shaney-quotes|http://wmf.editthispage.com/2001/11/15]. I invited Shaney into #infoAnarchy that night...
00:55:59 [chumpster]
commented item C
00:56:11 [sbp]
sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 185 seconds)
00:57:34 [AaronSw]
C::BTW, Joel, what does [this picture|http://www.joelonsoftware.com/head1.jpg] have to do with you, software, or painless software management?
00:57:35 [chumpster]
commented item C
01:01:48 [sbp]
sbp (~sean@p06s13a06.client.global.net.uk) has joined #swhack
01:02:49 [AaronSw]
Weird: http://www.whowouldyoukill.com/
01:04:22 [AaronSw]
sbp, can you enlighten me as to the difference between equivalentTo and sameIndividualAs?
01:05:06 [AaronSw]
Gotta run, dinner
01:05:12 [sbp]
not really. sameIndividualAs has a domain and range of daml:Thing, which is the only difference
01:05:13 [sbp]
c'ya
01:05:26 [elmaestro]
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01:05:57 [elmaestro]
elmaestro (inets@B5866.pppool.de) has joined #swhack
01:08:05 [AaronSw]
What's the domain/range of equivalentTo?
01:08:16 [sbp]
rdfs:Resource
01:08:30 [AaronSw]
Hmm, what's the difference between Thing and Resource?
01:08:34 [sbp]
no idea
01:08:43 [sbp]
a thing is that which is not nothing
01:09:11 [AaronSw]
Heh.
01:10:09 [sbp]
(or the complement of nothing)
01:10:42 [AaronSw]
Ok, c'ya. (Complements to the Chef!)
01:10:45 [AaronSw]
;-)
01:11:04 [AaronSw]
Off to see Harry Potter...
01:11:55 [sbp]
[[[
01:11:55 [sbp]
Two class names are already predefined, namely the classes daml:Thing and daml:Nothing. Every object is a member of daml:Thing, and no object is a member daml:Nothing. Consequently, every class is a subclass of daml:Thing and daml:Nothing is a subclass of every class.
01:12:00 [sbp]
]]] - http://www.daml.org/2001/03/reference.html
01:12:02 [sbp]
c'ya
01:12:07 [sbp]
have fun! review it for me
01:12:48 [sbp]
Gotta run
01:14:17 [elmaestro]
elmaestro has quit ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.1")
01:14:36 [sbp]
sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 187 seconds)
03:22:34 [GabeW]
GabeW (~gwachob@c1886218-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com) has joined #swhack
03:48:44 [sbp]
sbp (~sean@pBAs10a06.client.global.net.uk) has joined #swhack
03:48:54 [GabeW]
* GabeW slaps sbp heartily on the back
03:49:18 [sbp]
Hi there
03:49:27 [sbp]
* sbp was doing more Java programming... Certainly needs a break!
04:01:53 [sbp]
* sbp learns a bit of C++ just for a laugh
04:03:25 [sbp]
starts out like Java...
04:03:34 [sbp]
and then an "end if" creeps in
04:05:42 [sbp]
* sbp is flicking through http://www.intap.net/~drw/cpp/ BTW
04:06:55 [sbp]
oh man, give me Python...
04:07:28 [GabeW]
ok, I'll give you python ;-)
04:08:22 [sbp]
:-)
04:09:54 [GabeW]
sometimes, I wish we had smalltalk - its just so pure, but python is pretty durn good
04:10:59 [GabeW]
python certainly is more conventional and practical I think
04:11:05 [sbp]
yeah; even the significant whitespace is quite a nice feature once you get used to evenly spacing stuff
04:11:25 [sbp]
practical: certainly! You start typing out some lines... and a program forms. It's odd
04:11:50 [sbp]
You don't spend ages putting in any syntactic junk: no brackets, no typing, no rubbish
04:12:03 [GabeW]
have you played with smalltalk? Its supposed to be the most productive language out there (but that was before python) ;-)
04:12:32 [sbp]
* sbp is just going through the documentation now, as it happens
04:12:53 [GabeW]
which documentation?
04:13:13 [sbp]
heh: ""I invented the term Object-Oriented, and I can tell you I did not have C++ in mind."
04:13:13 [sbp]
— Alan Kay
04:13:13 [sbp]
"
04:13:23 [GabeW]
hehe
04:13:24 [sbp]
heh!
04:13:26 [sbp]
[[[
04:13:26 [sbp]
"Claiming Java is easier than C++ is like saying that K2 is shorter than Everest."
04:13:26 [sbp]
— Larry O'Brien (editor, Software Development)
04:13:26 [sbp]
]]]
04:13:34 [sbp]
both from http://www.smalltalk.org/main.html
04:13:38 [GabeW]
right
04:14:47 [sbp]
O.K., where do I go to learn about it then, please?
04:16:27 [GabeW]
go to squeak.org
04:16:51 [GabeW]
I am not a smalltalk guru
04:17:36 [sbp]
* sbp finds a few things
04:17:42 [sbp]
http://ite.gmu.edu/~enorris/363/smalltalk/gnu_manual.html
04:17:49 [sbp]
http://squeak.cs.uiuc.edu/cphoenix_tutorial/intro.html
04:17:53 [sbp]
http://kaka.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~wolfgang/cosc205/smalltalk1.html
04:18:12 [GabeW]
http://www.cetus-links.org/oo_smalltalk.html
04:18:17 [sbp]
pff: http://ite.gmu.edu/~enorris/363/smalltalk/part1.html
04:18:23 [GabeW]
cetus has soo many links about oo languages and concepts
04:21:34 [sbp]
sbp has quit ("Homer: 20 dollars? I wanted a peanut!")
04:21:52 [sbp]
sbp (~sean@pBAs10a06.client.global.net.uk) has joined #swhack
04:22:03 [GabeW]
did you get the cetus link?
04:22:22 [sbp]
oops, closed the wrong window :-)
04:22:24 [sbp]
yes, thanks
04:22:28 [sbp]
logster, grep 1-10 cetus
04:22:34 [logster]
I'm logging. I found 4 answers for 'cetus' (showing 1...4)
04:22:35 [logster]
1) 2001-11-18 04:22:03 <GabeW> did you get the cetus link?
04:22:36 [logster]
2) 2001-11-18 04:18:23 <GabeW> cetus has soo many links about oo languages and concepts
04:22:37 [logster]
3) 2001-11-18 04:18:12 <GabeW> http://www.cetus-links.org/oo_smalltalk.html
04:22:53 [sbp]
and thanks to ol' logster there, I know where to find it :-)
04:23:10 [GabeW]
kwelio
04:23:50 [sbp]
logster, grep -i kwelio
04:23:58 [logster]
I'm logging. I found 2 answers for 'kwelio'
04:23:59 [logster]
0) 2001-11-18 04:23:50 <sbp> logster, grep -i kwelio
04:24:00 [logster]
1) 2001-11-18 04:23:10 <GabeW> kwelio
04:24:39 [sbp]
Hmm... if logster fails us, we usually have xena, but she must be off fanning tav with a palm tree leaf or something
04:30:58 [GabeW]
are you reading up on smalltalk?
04:31:48 [sbp]
I'm trying to keep awake :-)
04:32:03 [sbp]
I've saved some Smalltalk stuff, I'll read it when I'ma bit less tired
04:32:29 [GabeW]
oh yeah, that's always a good thing
04:32:35 [GabeW]
Its only 8:34pm here
04:33:09 [sbp]
It's 4:30ish AM here...
04:33:40 [GabeW]
oh shit
04:34:16 [sbp]
yeah. And I've been programming Java... I shouldn't attempt these sort of things :-)
04:34:35 [GabeW]
well, smalltalk will make sooo much sense and you'll really really appreciate it given java
04:35:11 [sbp]
is it possible to write decent apps in smalltalk? What sort of stuff is it generally used for?
04:36:17 [GabeW]
well, some people claim to do big projects in smalltalk - you familiar with the Gang of Four (Design patterns)?
04:37:15 [sbp]
vaguely
04:37:19 [sbp]
they wrote a book
04:37:53 [GabeW]
yeah, Design Patterns
04:38:01 [GabeW]
Anyway, they were SmallTalk heads
04:38:36 [sbp]
ah: http://hillside.net/patterns/DPBook/GOF.html
04:38:52 [GabeW]
yeah
04:40:15 [GabeW]
part of the problem with smalltalk is that there weren't many standard open source or freely available implementations for a long while (I think)
04:40:32 [GabeW]
now, its changed, but I think it is too late
04:41:04 [GabeW]
smalltalk is like python in the sense of having extremely simple syntac
04:41:08 [GabeW]
syntax
04:41:15 [GabeW]
and also is pure oo
04:41:20 [GabeW]
even more so than python
04:41:26 [GabeW]
*everything* is an object
04:42:17 [sbp]
yeah, I noticed that... quite a neat way of going about things
04:43:31 [GabeW]
there are a couple of smalltalk-derived languages - objective C, self (I think)
04:44:40 [GabeW]
some would say, python, java
05:06:57 [sbp]
logster, grep 1-10 -i sun
05:07:02 [logster]
I'm logging. I found 1 answer for '-i sun' (showing 1...1)
05:07:15 [sbp]
gprgmprmgprmgrh
05:07:20 [sbp]
logster, grep -1 1-10 sun
05:07:29 [logster]
I'm logging. I found 1 answer for '-1 1-10 sun'
05:07:30 [logster]
0) 2001-11-18 05:07:20 <sbp> logster, grep -1 1-10 sun
05:07:32 [sbp]
aaaaaargh!
05:07:32 [sbp]
logster, grep -i 1-10 sun
05:07:39 [logster]
I'm logging. I found 40 answers for 'sun' (showing 1...10)
05:07:40 [logster]
1) 2001-11-18 05:07:20 <sbp> logster, grep -1 1-10 sun
05:07:41 [logster]
2) 2001-11-18 05:06:57 <sbp> logster, grep 1-10 -i sun
05:07:42 [logster]
3) 2001-11-15 23:49:41 <Morbus> the sun can burn in hell.
05:07:43 [logster]
4) 2001-11-14 03:52:30 <AaronSw> * AaronSw receives metor spam: "Don't forget the Leonid meteor shower Sunday at 4:00 AM, it is supposed to the best in 35 years 800 to 1000 meteor per hour!!"
05:07:44 [logster]
5) 2001-11-12 15:32:18 <wendy> wendy has quit (...sunny days, sweeping the clouds away...)
05:07:45 [logster]
6) 2001-10-31 21:50:12 <sbp> "Sad to be leveing, the sun's going down and I've really got to go now"
05:07:46 [logster]
7) 2001-10-29 03:46:42 <xena> TV Listings beginning: W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> TV Guide Online - [TV Listings] October 28, 2001 Listings For: San Diego - Time Warner CableSat 27Sun 28Mon 29Tue 30Wed 31Thu 1Fri 2Sat 3Sun 4Mon 5Tue 6Wed 7Thu 8Fri 9Sat 10Sun 1112:00 AM12:30 AM1:00 AM1:30 AM2:00 AM2:30 AM3:00 AM3:30 AM4:00 AM4:30 AM5:00 AM5:30 AM6:00 AM6:30 AM7:00 AM7:30 AM8:00 AM8:30 AM9:00 AM9:30 AM10:00 AM10:30
05:07:47 [logster]
8) 2001-10-27 19:51:38 <sbp> .google Java unencodeURL site:java.sun.com
05:07:48 [logster]
9) 2001-10-27 19:51:16 <xena> "Mean Mr. Mustard" Lyrics: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/9720
05:07:49 [logster]
10) 2001-10-27 19:48:47 <sbp> aha: http://java.sun.com/products/servlet/2.1/api/javax.servlet.http.HttpServletResponse.html
05:08:02 [sbp]
logster, grep -i 1-10 Solaris
05:08:11 [logster]
I'm logging. I found 2 answers for 'Solaris' (showing 1...2)
05:08:12 [logster]
1) 2001-10-29 23:04:00 <xena> Why is tripwire using up so much CPU: http://www.sans.org/infosecFAQ/unix/sec_solaris2.htm
05:08:21 [GabeW]
sbp - what are you looking for?
05:09:33 [sbp]
Aaron's comments on Solaris
05:11:48 [deltab]
what comments
05:12:54 [sbp]
dunno. That's why I'm trying to find them :-)
05:13:12 [deltab]
how do you know he said anything?
05:13:43 [sbp]
I believe that it is in my memory
05:14:04 [sbp]
whether or not that correlates adequately to what actually happened in real life is the thing that I am investigating now
05:14:05 [deltab]
what sort of thing?
05:14:13 [sbp]
thing?
05:14:31 [deltab]
what sort of thing did you remember him saying?
05:14:52 [sbp]
I'm not sure. It's a possibility it was off log, or off reality
05:14:59 [deltab]
a response to you saying you're using solaris?
05:15:23 [sbp]
a response to me saying something like "yo, A-ster. What's up Solaris, man?"
05:15:46 [deltab]
oh, right
05:16:29 [sbp]
ah, I'm right. It may or may not have been discussed
05:16:32 [deltab]
000944Z <sbp:#swhack> yo, iff-man. The A-ster wants you
05:16:32 [deltab]
000954Z <Morbus:#swhack> the asster?
05:16:32 [deltab]
001018Z <AaronSw:#swhack> don't make me kick you...
05:16:44 [sbp]
heh, heh
05:17:09 [GabeW]
man, amaya would be great if it didn't crash every 3 minutes
05:17:30 [sbp]
Amaya: yeah, and if all the other little bits were fixed
05:17:57 [GabeW]
I can't really use it
05:18:05 [GabeW]
it crashes so regularly
05:18:25 [AaronSw]
hi there
05:18:54 [GabeW]
hi
05:18:54 [sbp]
yo, A-ster. What's up Solaris, man?
05:19:10 [sbp]
er.. add a preposition in there somewhere
05:19:24 [AaronSw]
Solaris, eh?
05:19:33 [sbp]
yeah, totally
05:19:38 [AaronSw]
AaronSw has changed the topic to: Hagrid: "Had a bit of trouble flying over Bristol, though."
05:19:45 [AaronSw]
Heh heh heh.
05:19:52 [AaronSw]
That was quite funny.
05:19:59 [AaronSw]
I can assure you it was danbri's fault
05:20:02 [sbp]
what was?
05:20:07 [sbp]
what's going on?
05:20:39 [AaronSw]
At the beginning of Harry Potter, Hagrid flys in on a flying motorcycle.
05:21:01 [AaronSw]
And they ask him how it went...
05:21:02 [sbp]
ugh, now you've spoiled the whole thing! well, thanks a lot
05:21:14 [AaronSw]
"'Twas ok, had a bit of trouble flying over Bristol, though."
05:21:20 [sbp]
heh, that is pretty funny though
05:21:37 [sbp]
DanBri was probably slingshotting RDF books at them
05:22:52 [sbp]
so anyway... what with you is there up?
05:22:54 [AaronSw]
lol!
05:25:26 [sbp]
well, my typing accuracy has decresed suffiencty that it merts me going to bed
05:25:38 [GabeW]
and it merits you going to beed
05:25:40 [GabeW]
bed
05:25:58 [sbp]
and intelligability is alo appeering to be going down to th point were I really should be off going as well
05:26:09 [AaronSw]
ah no wy
05:26:15 [GabeW]
intelligibility
05:26:24 [sbp]
ugh, and now I get another ERT mail! Just as I was preparing to go... the cheek of it
05:26:34 [sbp]
s/the/The/
05:26:50 [sbp]
spot the typo:-
05:26:51 [sbp]
[[[
05:26:52 [sbp]
The WCAG reporting is based on Rick Joliffe's Schematron
05:26:53 [sbp]
]]]
05:27:16 [GabeW]
Joliffe != Jeliffe?
05:27:44 [sbp]
yeah. neat typo, though
05:27:52 [AaronSw]
Hmm, Chaals reminds me of Hagrid.
05:27:58 [sbp]
*sigh* I suppose I'd better retrieve a source for that utterance
05:28:04 [GabeW]
go to sleep
05:28:04 [sbp]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-er-ig/2001Nov/0023
05:28:12 [sbp]
yeah, I really should :-)
05:28:17 [AaronSw]
He's just the sort of fellow who'd have trouble flying over Bristol too...
05:28:45 [AaronSw]
danbri'd love to fling books at him!
05:28:50 [sbp]
heh, heh!
05:29:30 [sbp]
* sbp decides to take Gabe's advice
05:29:47 [sbp]
c'ya
05:30:23 [AaronSw]
bye
05:30:52 [GabeW]
I wish people would tell me to go to bed sometime
05:30:56 [deltab]
goodnight
05:31:48 [AaronSw]
GabeW, stay up late and party.
05:32:14 [sbp]
sbp has quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds)
05:33:50 [GabeW]
no no
05:34:15 [AaronSw]
logster, awake
05:34:15 [AaronSw]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'awake', AaronSw. Try /msg logster help
05:36:08 [AaronSw]
@ http://wmf.editthispage.com/discuss/msgReader$6245
05:36:13 [chumpster]
D: Hack the Planet Prime: n3 syntax is good (Re: RDF Torture Test) from AaronSw
05:36:22 [AaronSw]
D:|David McCusker likes N3
05:36:23 [chumpster]
titled item D
05:36:29 [AaronSw]
D::"(Yes, that means I found a chat session between AaronSw and sbp. :-)"
05:36:30 [chumpster]
commented item D
05:37:09 [AaronSw]
D::"It not only doesn't suck, it's good and rational. Kudos, that will work. I can support that without the twinge of horror that RDF in XML gives me."
05:37:11 [chumpster]
commented item D
05:37:30 [wmf]
wmf (wesf@cs242724-5.austin.rr.com) has joined #swhack
05:37:45 [AaronSw]
D::"I'm happy to see someone who has a feel for real computing language design helped with n3." [...] "If you need help beating up any idiot who wants to subvert the simplicity, I'll consider helping. I know my vote doesn't count for much. But I suspect Aaron might be pleased there's something I don't vehemently oppose in the RDF camp now that the n3 syntax exists."
05:37:46 [chumpster]
commented item D
05:37:53 [wmf]
the bots are growing in number
05:37:55 [AaronSw]
hey wes
05:37:59 [AaronSw]
oh?
05:38:09 [wmf]
soon they will rise up against us!
05:38:13 [AaronSw]
Oh dear.
05:38:17 [GabeW]
wmf is following me around in irc-space
05:38:19 [wmf]
but anyway:
05:38:19 [AaronSw]
Good thing we killed off xena.
05:38:39 [wmf]
why does n3 put <> around almost everything?
05:39:02 [AaronSw]
Oh? Just URIs.
05:39:14 [GabeW]
that's to tell a URI from a literal, no?
05:39:22 [wmf]
well, it seems almost everything in RDF is a URI
05:39:31 [wmf]
I am looking at http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/Primer.html
05:39:33 [GabeW]
literals or URIs
05:40:02 [GabeW]
The R in RDF is the same R in URI
05:40:09 [wmf]
right
05:40:32 [AaronSw]
wmf, Have you gotten to the part where he defines namespaces?
05:40:46 [AaronSw]
In real N3, you almost never see <>s
05:40:49 [wmf]
my point is: what would it hurt to assume that anything that's not a string is a URI
05:40:58 [wmf]
yeah, I'm just getting to that part, which makes it better
05:41:14 [AaronSw]
If you take that assumption, then you get semEnglish, which apparently, works... it just makes me feel creepy.
05:41:29 [AaronSw]
because http://foo.org is take as a special case of local:suffix
05:42:09 [AaronSw]
In reality, the real problem is those nasty colons...
05:42:10 [GabeW]
:this :is "normal"
05:42:17 [AaronSw]
Yeah, that's it.
05:44:27 [wmf]
"The owners of the next two ontologies retain all rights, so you should not copy them for the purposes of making your own ontology." ahem, what kind of BS is that?
05:44:43 [AaronSw]
where's that from?
05:44:52 [AaronSw]
.google " owners of the next two ontologies retain all rights"
05:44:53 [wmf]
from http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/Examples.html
05:45:43 [AaronSw]
Hmm. I guess there was a copyright on them?
05:45:56 [GabeW]
* GabeW puts on his lawyer hat
05:46:09 [AaronSw]
* TimBL takes his director hat off
05:46:13 [wmf]
APIs are not copyrightable; I don't see what ontologies should be
05:46:17 [GabeW]
I think ontologies would be considered "original" enough to be copyrightable
05:46:33 [AaronSw]
Hmm, APIs aren't copyrightable? That's cool.
05:46:36 [GabeW]
but that's a little disturbing, because its getting close to being 'facts' which are not copyrightable
05:47:03 [GabeW]
Well, I don't know if that particular issue (APIs) have been lititgated
05:47:09 [wmf]
if ontologies are copyrightable, then schemas probably are too, which seems pretty bad
05:47:20 [GabeW]
yeah, you are correct
05:47:42 [GabeW]
on the one hand, I think there are decisions saying that yellow page categories are not protectable under copyright
05:48:03 [GabeW]
but this could be different - its not clear at all
05:48:23 [AaronSw]
I don't think TimBL was in the mood to litigate it, so he put that notice up to shut folks up.
05:48:31 [wmf]
I think the API copyright issue has been litigated; it's certainly similar to the BIOS and video game reverse engineering cases at any rate
05:48:39 [AaronSw]
I mean, to some extent rules are code, and code can be copyrighted, no?
05:49:14 [AaronSw]
Hmm, neither seem to involve rules, tho...
05:50:06 [GabeW]
well, yeah, but reverse engineering is something different than copying substantially an API
05:50:20 [GabeW]
reverse engineering is something that copyright doesn't prevent
05:50:27 [GabeW]
(in general)
05:51:43 [BenSw]
BenSw (~yoda@c930384-a.hlndpk1.il.home.com) has joined #swhack
05:51:47 [BenSw]
Hello
05:52:03 [GabeW]
its very hard to answer these questions without actual litigation - anything less is the province of legal scholarship
05:52:07 [wmf]
the two cases I mentioned dealt with the fact that building something new that implements an existing API necessarily requires copying stuff like function names
05:52:34 [wmf]
and the courts ruled that those are not copyrightable
05:53:12 [GabeW]
the idea is that you can't extend copyright beyond the exclusive rights that copyright grants (copy, use, prepare derivate works, perform)
05:54:00 [GabeW]
and preventing the reverse engineering has usually been considered "outside" those rights held by a copyright holder
05:54:31 [wmf]
right, but it wasn't completely clear whether a program that implements an API is a derivate work of the API documentation (since they contain strings in common)
05:54:51 [GabeW]
unless we are talking about anti-circumvention technologies (in a post-DMCA world..)
05:54:52 [GabeW]
there are a lot of questions like this you bring up , wmf, and that's why its not settled law, afaik
05:55:24 [wmf]
luckily the precedent that exists is going in the direction I like
05:56:07 [GabeW]
until it isn't ;-)
05:56:45 [GabeW]
* GabeW takes off his lawyer hat cuz it hurts and he's not really a lawyer
05:57:00 [wmf]
anyway, sorry for the non-SW digression
05:57:19 [GabeW]
this channel is for non-sequiturs
05:57:22 [GabeW]
ask AaronSw
05:57:40 [AaronSw]
It's for off-topic stuff.
05:58:02 [wmf]
* wmf realizes that AaronSw could stand for Aaron Semantic web
05:58:16 [AaronSw]
You haven't read my webpage, I guess. :-)
05:59:20 [wmf]
I don't see that, but your page is pretty dense
05:59:44 [AaronSw]
left side on the bottom
06:00:03 [wmf]
ah
06:00:06 [wmf]
* wmf is slow
06:00:32 [wmf]
MOTO sounds like a good idea
06:00:52 [wmf]
although it would strike more fear in people if it was called MOFO
06:01:03 [AaronSw]
Heh heh.
06:01:13 [AaronSw]
I should replace MOTO and stuff with the Plex...
06:01:15 [GabeW]
moto == mail order telephone order
06:01:29 [AaronSw]
mofo = mail order fone order
06:01:38 [wmf]
(I was distrubed to hear that Fred von Lohmann used to work for a law firm called "MoFo")
06:01:45 [GabeW]
yeah, mofo
06:01:54 [GabeW]
I have many friends who work at mofo
06:02:02 [GabeW]
well, a couple now
06:02:03 [AaronSw]
The Mighty MoFo.
06:02:11 [AaronSw]
.google mofo
06:02:15 [AaronSw]
argh
06:02:24 [GabeW]
if I had been a lawyer, I very well might have ended up at MoFo
06:02:28 [AaronSw]
<xena> mofo: http://www.mofo.com
06:02:42 [AaronSw]
wearing painful hats, no doubt
06:02:47 [GabeW]
yeah
06:03:05 [GabeW]
I always thought it was funny that Morrison and Foerster called themselves MoFo
06:03:20 [GabeW]
They are apparently a relatively good firm to work for - treat their associates well
06:03:42 [wmf]
so anyway, I've been thinking about building something like MOTO with Jena, an XSLT engine, and very little glue code
06:03:55 [wmf]
at $290/hour, they can afford to
06:04:25 [GabeW]
only $290 an hour?
06:04:26 [AaronSw]
Hmm, Jena+XSLT would be scary... but possibly less scary than the cwm+xslt that's being used now...
06:04:46 [wmf]
what's scary about it?
06:05:19 [AaronSw]
Hmm, well what'd be the output?
06:05:23 [AaronSw]
from Jena, that is
06:05:42 [wmf]
a DOM tree with RDF/XML
06:06:04 [AaronSw]
Yeah, see the scary bit is the XSLT that you have to write.
06:06:29 [wmf]
hmm
06:07:03 [AaronSw]
w3.org/Adressing/schemes is one I helped with
06:07:09 [AaronSw]
DanC has mean XSLT
06:10:47 [AaronSw]
Well, I better get some sleep so I can go see the Leonids tomorrow.
06:11:02 [GabeW]
yeah, tomorrow? here, stgarts in 1 hour and height in 4 hours
06:11:24 [GabeW]
* GabeW peers outside to see if there clouds
06:11:31 [AaronSw]
Hmm, sounds about right.
06:11:41 [AaronSw]
It's totally fogged over here, so I'm getting some sleep.
06:11:52 [AaronSw]
Sheesh, how many Robert Morris' are there?
06:12:12 [wmf]
a lot
06:12:24 [AaronSw]
seems that way
06:12:37 [wmf]
looking at that URI scheme XSLT, I'm starting to see what you mean
06:12:47 [deltab]
two that I know of
06:13:02 [GabeW]
ooh its clear
06:13:23 [GabeW]
there's a lot of light pollution (blame Oracle)
06:14:12 [deltab]
the father and son
06:14:19 [GabeW]
?
06:14:27 [AaronSw]
Where's the son work now?
06:14:31 [GabeW]
oh Robert Morris
06:14:48 [deltab]
something I looked at recently...
06:14:54 [wmf]
RTM is at MIT PDOS AFAIK
06:15:07 [AaronSw]
Is that _the_ Robert Morris Jr.?
06:15:17 [AaronSw]
I showed it to my Dad and he said it didn't look like him...
06:15:27 [AaronSw]
s/it/his photo/
06:15:35 [deltab]
http://pdos.lcs.mit.edu/
06:15:48 [deltab]
hmm
06:16:24 [GabeW]
I don't think it is
06:16:29 [deltab]
Robert Morris, A Weakness in the 4.2BSD Unix TCP/IP Software, Bell Labs
06:16:29 [deltab]
Computer Science Technical Report 117. Abstract, PostScript, PDF.
06:16:37 [GabeW]
hmm
06:16:55 [wmf]
how many Unix hackers named Robert T Morris can there be?
06:16:57 [GabeW]
or maybe it is - T is the infamous Morris' middle initial
06:17:58 [deltab]
ah, that'll be the Morris worm... hackerdom eventually fills up with Robert T Morrises
06:18:04 [GabeW]
when was the big worm? can we find a hole in his publishing?
06:18:24 [GabeW]
that is, in his publishing dates
06:18:46 [wmf]
1989 I think
06:18:54 [GabeW]
oh man, it was that long ago?
06:19:03 [GabeW]
* GabeW is feeling old
06:19:16 [AaronSw]
Were you infected, GabeW?
06:19:19 [wmf]
1988
06:19:24 [GabeW]
no
06:19:29 [wmf]
http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/Robert_Morris
06:19:30 [deltab]
1988-11
06:19:35 [GabeW]
I wasn't really "online" then
06:19:46 [GabeW]
oh hell yah, its him
06:19:50 [GabeW]
http://www.discovery.com/area/technology/hackers/morris.html
06:19:59 [AaronSw]
Mayor of New York?
06:20:01 [AaronSw]
Wow....
06:21:00 [AaronSw]
Yeah, does look a little like him...
06:21:22 [GabeW]
he looks like John Doerr
06:21:23 [AaronSw]
But not when he takes his glasses off: http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~rtm/volcan2.jpg
06:21:29 [GabeW]
http://www.kpcb.com/team/bio_detail.php?frm_id=15
06:21:52 [GabeW]
John Doerr ... separated at birth from Robert T Morris?
06:22:15 [AaronSw]
John Doerr actually responded to my email. I was surprised...
06:22:22 [GabeW]
about what/
06:22:23 [GabeW]
?
06:22:28 [AaronSw]
About schooling
06:22:50 [GabeW]
gn'
06:22:52 [GabeW]
hmm
06:23:00 [wmf]
hmm, if he was a Cornell grad student in 88, wouldn't he have papers from then?
06:24:08 [AaronSw]
Hmm, is Alef any good?
06:24:49 [GabeW]
alef?
06:25:07 [AaronSw]
Plan9 programming language
06:25:14 [GabeW]
oh
06:25:19 [wmf]
I think it was killed
06:30:56 [GabeW]
alright guys, I'm off to catch some winks before Leonid
06:31:02 [AaronSw]
c'ya
06:32:58 [GabeW]
GabeW has quit ("Ba-bye!")
06:35:07 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw looks for songs to download
06:36:03 [AaronSw]
BLURB:Harry Potter
06:36:05 [chumpster]
E: Harry Potter from AaronSw
06:36:44 [AaronSw]
E::Went to see Harry Potter tonight. The theater was pretty crowded, but not sold out. I thought it was OK. Others thought it should have been longer. They cut a lot of stuff out.
06:36:45 [chumpster]
commented item E
06:40:59 [deltab]
would http://imdb.com/Title?0241527 be suitable as a URI for that?
06:41:19 [AaronSw]
Hmm. I think I did that for Monster's Inc.
06:41:54 [AaronSw]
So yes, it'd be a suitable URI, but I wouldn't say that I went to see http://imdb.com/Title?0241527, like I say that I'm http://www.aaronsw.com/
06:42:19 [AaronSw]
I'd use it more in the sense as [ a :Movie ; :describedBy <http://imdb.com/Title?0241527> ] .
06:43:27 [AaronSw]
E::I like how Chris Columbus' company is called 1492 Productions. ;-)
06:43:28 [chumpster]
commented item E
06:44:04 [deltab]
but you wouldn't call yourself [ a :Person; :describedBy <http://www.aaronsw.com/> ] ?
06:44:21 [AaronSw]
E::Google helpfully [attempts to locate|http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap&addr=1492+Productions+Chris+&csz=Columbus+OH+&Get%A0Map=Get+Map] 192 Productions Chris, Columbus, OH. :)
06:44:22 [chumpster]
commented item E
06:44:45 [AaronSw]
No, I'd say [ a :Person; :describedBy <http://swartzfam.com/aaron/> ] . ;-)
06:44:46 [deltab]
heh
06:44:56 [AaronSw]
But I speak looslely in chat...
06:45:14 [AaronSw]
We often say, "Hi, I'm Aaron Swartz" and saying "Hi, I'm http://www.aaronsw.com/" is just as valid, IMO.
06:45:49 [AaronSw]
Jrobb isn't the top hit if you spell "christiane amanpour" right.
06:47:14 [wmf]
oh geez, Lifestreams is "late to the station"?
06:47:23 [AaronSw]
Because it doesn't let you share!
06:49:34 [AaronSw]
I notice UserLand is big on buy Google adwords
06:50:00 [wmf]
I never noticed that
06:50:12 [AaronSw]
s/buy/buying/
06:51:06 [wmf]
OK, I see them on "weblog" and "weblogs"
06:51:09 [wmf]
any others?
06:51:15 [AaronSw]
I just see weblog...
06:53:02 [AaronSw]
Wow, I never noticed this before: www.google.com/quality_form
06:54:33 [AaronSw]
Heh: "He actually looks scarier on the Legos. In the Legos he has a green face. Man it's gnarly." - Scoble Jr.
06:57:07 [AaronSw]
@ http://www.farces.com/farces/999462920/
06:57:11 [chumpster]
F: Fun with spammers from AaronSw
06:58:42 [AaronSw]
F::How to get rid of spammers and make money on it!
06:58:43 [chumpster]
commented item F
06:59:13 [AaronSw]
I better get to sleep.
07:03:28 [AaronSw]
E::I'm not sure I'd
07:03:30 [chumpster]
commented item E
07:03:31 [AaronSw]
shoot
07:04:05 [AaronSw]
E::I'm not sure I'd recommend others to go see it. It didn't make me laugh, cry, think or feel thrilled. It felt more like a Special Effects Demo Reel than a movie.
07:04:06 [chumpster]
commented item E
07:04:18 [AaronSw]
ok, now i'm really sleeping
07:06:35 [tav`]
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07:47:59 [AaronSw]
AaronSw is now known as bob
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bob is now known as AaronSw
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wmf is now known as silent_bob
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silent_bob has quit ("silent_bob has no reason")
15:10:47 [AaronSw]
D::"""Whenever I see RDF examples presented, I always get a mild suspicion that the target market is digital rights managment, since a preponderance of title, author, and copyright often appears in the triples. :-) Thus, the desired inference seems to be "Hey! You owe me money!" :-)"""
15:10:49 [chumpster]
commented item D
15:16:43 [tav`]
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tav` is now known as foo
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18:32:07 [lilo]
[GlobalNotice] Hi all. We may experience routing problems in the next few minutes. Please bear with us.
20:07:42 [sbp]
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20:15:41 [lilo]
[GlobalNotice] Hi all. Going to do a bit of rerouting, which should go fairly smoothly, but expect a bit of noise.
20:34:43 [lilo]
[GlobalNotice] Hi all. More rerouting in progress. I think I think I actually understand dent's scripts now. Scary.
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20:56:23 [AaronSw]
man, i sure wish my hard drive were here.
21:35:51 [AaronSw]
@ http://mathworld.wolfram.com/erics_commentary.html
21:35:57 [chumpster]
G: Eric's Commentary on the Shutdown of MathWorld from AaronSw
21:36:08 [AaronSw]
G::MathWorld is back!
21:36:10 [chumpster]
commented item G
21:43:55 [AaronSw]
G::A long, sad story with a bittersweet ending: MathWorld is back, but they had to agree to some insane licensing requirements.
21:43:56 [chumpster]
commented item G
22:13:22 [AaronSw]
Hmm, pymmetry is single-seed -- it'd be nice to have a multi-seed implementation
22:13:31 [AaronSw]
It's sort of funny how most of my google queries bring up #swhack chatlogs :)
22:21:08 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw watches "Forbidden Love"
22:35:31 [AaronSw]
Hmm, interesting... I sorta get the felling it's a monster, grown out of control.
23:06:42 [AaronSw]
"Severe Tire Damage" is a _great_ album.
23:44:18 [lilo]
[GlobalNotice] Hi all. One more routing reconnect. We need to move a couple of main rotation servers. I'll try to get it over with quickly, so hold your ears. 8)
23:44:35 [BenSw]
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23:48:41 [lilo]
[GlobalNotice] Thanks for your patience, all done.