00:00:43 logster has joined #swhack 00:00:43 topic is: TiVo Hacking Extravaganza! 00:00:43 Users on #swhack: logster @sbp AaronSw deltab 00:00:48 LOL, what a homepage! 00:00:55 "An unofficial product of the World Wide Web" 00:00:58 good, innit 00:00:58 good, innit 00:01:07 I want to put a picture on it, though... 00:01:11 I need one of a duck 00:01:14 Where's the archived version? 00:01:34 on my Hard Drive! 00:01:42 Oh, pfft. 00:01:45 That's no good. 00:01:50 no good to you 00:02:02 I mean for in the future, when people read these logs -- they'll want to see what we're laughing about. 00:02:10 You should archive this homepage so people know. 00:02:18 well, that page will be up there. It's finished now 00:02:32 Oh, not forever, I hope. 00:02:41 as long as my server runs, I guess 00:02:47 And you destroyed the WebPad! 00:02:52 * AaronSw cries 00:02:55 WebPad? 00:03:11 Yeah, /sbp/?fooo 00:03:27 Good thing I have it all in my archiver. 00:03:35 So much information...lost 00:03:38 that was just junk though... there was no good information in there 00:03:51 How can you decide that?! 00:03:59 the only good information is "here is a link to something that I do, here is a link to my email address" 00:04:04 it's mine to decide 00:04:10 No it's not! 00:04:21 You are not arbiter of what information the World should find Useful. 00:04:27 * sbp wonders if Aaron likes the new page or not :-) 00:04:33 oh, of course not... 00:04:41 but I'm the arbiter of what appears on infomesh.net 00:04:47 I like it, but only as an April Fool's joke. 00:04:54 * sbp looks at the calendar 00:04:57 Well sure, but destroying all that Useful Information. 00:05:03 ... 00:05:08 it's just so sad 00:05:22 cite me some useful information! no one will miss it. If they do, they can email me 00:05:27 And you threw your persistence policy out the window. 00:05:29 ! 00:05:36 What about my links to http://infomesh.net/sbp/?TheB ? 00:05:57 actually, that still stands. My contract was, "A Homepage Of Sean B. Palmer". The links to the PURL still work perfectly 00:06:03 And you've wiped "Bertie The Agoraphobic Penguin" off the face of the Earth. 00:06:26 that didn't exist anyway 00:06:31 Yes it did! 00:06:37 I didn't link to it. I don't even think it's online (is it?) 00:06:43 yep it is.... 00:06:54 seriously? I can't remember publishing it... 00:07:00 You didn't. 00:07:43 anyway, it's no loss. It wasn't a good story anyway. Satire? Pff... I've seen better satire conducted on Temptation Island 00:07:58 (just for the record, I have not watched that sleazy pile of crap) 00:08:07 heheh 00:08:10 :-) 00:08:32 When the call something a sleazy piece of crap in the Simpsons blackboard gag, you know it must be pretty sleazy! 00:08:36 I can't believe you! Information-killer! 00:08:53 I put it out to graze/stud! 00:09:23 stud? 00:09:29 Hmm... with one click, I could delete the whole lot 00:09:38 can information mate? 00:09:53 Nah, you can't delete it -- I still have most of it. 00:10:51 aw, it won't even let me delete it 00:11:15 I hate it when folks try to kill good information. I thought you were above that. 00:11:16 ooh, I can delete /2001/ 00:11:39 This is like the father in "Maus" who threw out all the valuable historical records. 00:11:43 sbp: what happened to the info on @@? 00:11:58 Hmm... no I can't. Bugger 00:12:05 @@: I'll redirect it in a second 00:12:06 http://purl.org/net/@@ -- that was useful! 00:12:24 Threw it all out in a fit of anger! 00:12:42 pffff, anger 00:12:43 The information isn't yours to destroy -- it belongs to the Web -- the Web deserves it! 00:13:21 wow, my FTP server is really smegged up... 00:13:26 She Belongs To Me 00:14:03 Heh: "Everything to do with the SW at the moment is so "data orientated" and unfriendly (with good reason). So I wanted to create a nice little example of what the SW could do for the people it is being made for: us!" 00:14:56 Huh?: "This is an example of the brand new HyperText system being developed by Tim Berners-Lee and Dan Connolly. It uses the first ever SGML DTD developed for HTML (by Dan Connolly)." 00:14:59 - http://infomesh.net/2000/hypertext/WWW/MarkUp/ 00:16:03 I love this line, though: "That's one of my email addresses, but on weekends I let it out to a takeaway firm, so only enquire about menu prices during the week." 00:16:42 Shoot! My archiver was off! Grrr. 00:18:29 * sbp tries to recover @@ 00:18:43 Hmm, you destroyed http://www.waptechinfo.com/ too? 00:19:18 Sean B. Palmer - President WAP Tech Info on design: http://infomesh.net/2000/xhtml/eod/ 00:20:17 "I estimate that this document is about 1-3 years ahead of its time. This will soon be the location of an entire site dedicated to web design of the future, through XHTML 2.0 and beyond!" - http://infomesh.net/2000/xhtml/exp/ 00:20:32 * sbp should remove all of that crap 00:20:37 No! 00:22:28 * sbp is trying to, but my computer is making it difficult 00:22:49 You're on a mad rampage today. Who's around? I need them to tackle you to the ground to stop you! 00:23:11 you deleted TheSimpsons! 00:23:29 I did? So I did 00:23:54 At least we still have http://infomesh.net/2000/xhtml/homer/ 00:24:01 I cannot understand why people are so attached to the stuff that I've just temporarily deleted! 00:24:08 temporarily? 00:24:10 that's one of the things I'm trying to delete right now 00:24:26 well, it's still there. I just screwed it up a bit 00:24:33 well, some of it's still there 00:24:59 wow, it's actually deleting /2000/xhtml/ 00:25:10 good thing I archived that already. 00:25:13 * sbp wonders if he has a copy... didn't mean to delete it just yet 00:25:22 This page has not been found on the requested server (infomesh.net). It 00:25:22 may be that the link you have followed is incorrect, or in the worst case, 00:25:22 this page has moved. If you think that this may be the case, please 00:25:22 contact the site's owner, because he knows that Cool URIs Don't Change. 00:25:37 heh, heh. Strangely ironic, eh? 00:25:44 Yeah, really. 00:25:58 Did you forget to take your medicine or something? You've gone completely insane! 00:26:15 I really hate that old stuff, so its gone. What's the problem? 00:26:29 Get your mum to smack you really hard. Maybe you'll wake up. 00:26:33 the WebPad stuff is still there. I'm just kidding with that 00:26:50 it'll take about two mouse clicks to restore it... 00:26:57 You sound like one of those mad dictators who hold the hero hostage and say "I really hate that country, so its gone. What's the probelm?" 00:27:04 (in a movie of course) 00:27:21 ta da 00:27:32 http://infomesh.net/sbp/?TheSimpsons 00:27:55 Phew. 00:28:09 a couple more clicks, and it's gone again! Wow, the power 00:28:19 Ugh! 00:29:18 Well, I got up to Kashmir. 00:29:19 seriously though, I'm looking to streamline the whole site causing as little damage as possible 00:29:41 I hope the world will not blame me too much for not acting faster and getting more stuff. 00:30:06 I doubt it... it's really just junk. And it's my junk (c) 00:30:34 I mean, honestly! There's not much value in it. I want to make a new site that has all of the good bits in it, but with none of the crap 00:30:54 Fine, do so -- but don't destroy the old! 00:32:28 well, I'm going to restore homer, but none of the other xhtml crap 00:33:09 ta da: http://infomesh.net/2000/xhtml/homer/ 00:33:28 quite a cool page, that 00:34:00 Hmm... whilst I'm cleaning up, what other embarrasing stuff can I delete... 00:35:26 ah, of course 00:36:10 grrr 00:36:12 Hmm... why isn't that working? 00:36:48 oh, of course... oops 00:36:57 there, xWebL has gone! 00:37:31 Ha! Not so fast! 00:37:51 ? 00:37:58 I've archived your whole site! 00:38:16 but what can you do with it? 00:38:22 it's mine, copyrighted 00:38:35 I'll upload it to Sealand. 00:38:42 Sealand? 00:38:52 HavenCo -- where they don't recognixe copyright. 00:39:03 Hmm... 00:39:11 I can still delete infomesh.net at the root 00:39:47 so it'll be effectively useless 00:39:57 Infomesh? 00:40:17 yeah 00:40:35 But it'll all still be at HavenCo! 00:40:49 so? people won't know it's there 00:40:56 I backlink it so they will! 00:41:31 backlink? 00:41:46 Well if they do link: searches on google, they'll find it. 00:41:57 I'll tag them in RDF too. 00:42:18 O.K. then, I'll do it 00:43:10 No! 00:43:13 I was just kidding! 00:44:03 * sbp gets the necessary tools 00:44:14 Quick, call his Mom! 00:45:56 argh, it won't let me delete huge files over IE 00:46:16 Ugh, I didn't get all of it downloaded. 00:47:55 what did you miss? 00:48:05 I don't know -- it's all screwed up now. 00:48:09 good 00:48:13 Looks like I missed probably most of it. 00:48:30 good? why? 00:48:45 You know you'll regret all this in the morning. 00:48:47 no trace of it then 00:49:02 Nah, I won't regret it. Why would I regret it? And anyway, it is the morning here 00:49:17 Ugh, it's worse than I've thought. 00:49:33 You've really got it, haven't you. 00:49:49 got what? 00:49:54 "Be the first one on your block to have your boy come home in a box!" 00:50:00 insanity, that's what. 00:50:11 nah; cool experiment, though 00:50:31 How so? 00:50:56 just wondered how persistent my information was. In some ways, it's too persistent, in other ways not enough 00:51:18 Heh: wiki.wiki.wah.wah.worldwidewiki.com 00:51:39 Too persistent: stuff like the old 2000 stuff which I really regret is now lodged in these bloody chatarchives. Not persistent enough: I deleted the WebPAd, and it's gone 00:51:59 You deleted the WebPad?! 00:52:28 theoretically 00:52:34 http://infomesh.net/sbp/?KillMeNow 00:52:52 and the xWebL stuff too 00:53:09 and most of /2000/xhtml/, except for /2000/xhtml/homer/ 00:53:51 about how much of the site have you archived? in percentage 00:54:04 I have no idea! 00:54:18 Heh, Bob Dylan just sang: "I've got no idea." 00:54:31 "... Or maybe I do, but I'm just really not sure." 00:54:40 Neat! 00:54:46 Sugar Baby! 00:54:49 I have no way to know how big your site is. 00:54:55 I love that song... 00:55:01 I just played it a few minutes ago 00:55:09 big: about 30MB, I think 00:55:33 actually, what song are you listening to? 00:55:45 "Highlands" 00:55:54 from "Time Out Of Mind" 00:56:12 "She says 'I know you're an artist, draw a picture of me'" 00:56:23 I don't do sketches from memory 00:56:27 Exactly. 00:56:41 So timely. 00:56:44 * AaronSw cries again 00:56:49 yeah... sorry, I was humming Sugar Baby, and sang the lyrics to that song. Weird 00:57:07 Which ones have you read then? 00:57:20 Huh? 00:57:26 (it's in the song) 00:58:26 She said you don't read women authors do you? At least that's what I think I hear her say. I say how would you know, and what would it matter anyway? She said you just don't seem like you do. I said, you're way wrong. "she said, 'well which ones have you read then?'" 00:58:34 etc. 00:58:48 Yeah... just got there now. 00:58:51 :-) 00:58:57 I say "Read Erica Jong" 01:00:12 that's a cool song too; the length and album placement is reminiscent of Sad Eyed Lady 01:00:27 but it's certainly it's own song. Just Bob telling a story 01:00:56 what stuff did I delete, again? 01:01:09 umm, the SBP webpad 01:01:18 and /2000 01:01:23 and xWebL 01:01:27 yep 01:01:31 I've restored the WebPad and xWebL 01:01:46 bollocks to /2000/xhtml/ 01:02:17 Heh. 01:02:43 but one day, I might have to get rid of it all 01:02:49 Why? 01:03:05 my local archives are smegged, and they're planning to move the site soon 01:03:21 so I might have to reupload the stuff, and stuff will go missing 01:03:28 Can't you let me do a big FTP download or something? 01:03:45 that's a last resort, if you'd be willing to do it :-) 01:03:52 Of course! ;-) 01:03:57 cheers 01:04:07 but really, it's bad management on my behalf 01:04:26 I agree with your "flat server" proposal (for small sites like mine and yours) 01:04:40 See how they learn! ;-) 01:04:41 and am thinking of starting again with a new domain, and a new filing system 01:04:53 hence the experiment today 01:05:07 I'm not fond of the way I've done things at infomesh.net 01:05:17 So how would you have done it? 01:05:28 I 01:05:36 I'm writing a document now about it 01:05:48 I figure: SSI is harmful 01:05:57 Why? 01:06:02 so are file extensions. so that rules out ASP... 01:06:21 because they allow you to put files in all sorts of weird places, and they don't port 01:06:29 ASP => PHP doesn't go 01:07:19 so I reckon one flat database of a host of XHTML/text files is the best option 01:07:39 multimedia can go somepace else, but I'm not keen on hosting huge chunks of multimedia 01:08:01 there should be just a few base kick-ass styles 01:08:01 Heh, a lot like a Blogspace, eh? ;-) 01:08:14 Blogspace: yeah, but without any server trickery 01:08:27 I don't have access to a TCL enabled server, so it's not viable 01:08:46 you're just lucky, you've got the server, the knowhow, and the money to do cool things 01:08:50 I haven't :-) 01:09:10 I don't really have the money -- just good friends ;-) 01:09:18 :-) 01:11:15 so that's my plan. I'm fed up with infomesh.net, so I plan to move it, update it, delete it, do whatever 01:11:35 AaronSw has changed the topic to: "Memory Is Like A Wossname": An experiment in persistence 01:12:05 Don't delete it! If you get really annoyed, bequeath it to me and all host it as an archive like TimBL keeps talking about. 01:12:23 it was interesting to see your response. In all actuality, I don't think that the information is all that important 01:12:47 Really? 01:12:48 Heh, it was fun to play the part. 01:12:52 I also think that information should be the authors to maintain 01:13:07 Yeah, but this world is endowed with a lot of stupid authors. 01:13:13 yeah, only about 1% of the data on infomesh.net is actually important 01:13:21 yeah, I know. I run the club 01:13:40 Heheh. Nah, you're better than most of 'em. It's really just the famous ones that're stupid. 01:13:40 Like that interview with Dylan you pointed me to. 01:13:55 er... famous server maintainers? 01:14:07 No, famous creators. 01:14:10 :-) 01:14:22 * AaronSw plays "How To Disappear Completely" 01:14:34 if you could only retrieve 20KB of data from your site, what would it be? think about it 01:14:48 They're to emotionally attached (or detached) from their work to respect it. 01:14:52 now, what if you could only *host* 20KB. The answer would probably be different 01:15:07 Ugh, from my site? You're not going to bomb it, are you? 01:15:11 famous people: they can do what they do, and I'll do what I do 01:15:19 heh, bomb it 01:15:34 no really: what would you keep for yourself, and keep for the world? 01:15:46 I dunno, I have know way to judge. 01:15:51 I can't even remember what's on my server. 01:15:54 lol 01:16:12 David McCusker explained it to me -- I don't think in words. 01:16:29 I think is spatial relationships... pictures. 01:16:50 yeah, sure, but if you were forced, you'd soon do it 01:17:01 you'd just look through whatever files you had and grab 01:17:02 The words are an inconsequential representation of the relationships 01:17:06 so I soon forget the words. 01:17:14 what if I gave you a minute? if you don't save anything, it's all gone 01:17:23 I'd grab whatever I could. 01:17:32 Making decisions would waste time. 01:17:34 you only have 20KB for some reason 01:17:59 anyway, you're just fucking with the point that I'm trying to make... 01:18:14 that "joke" homepage was really all that I thought the world needs of information about me in the kind of /sbp/ space 01:18:24 Well, I know that. 01:18:27 in fact, it was much more 01:18:50 But you're a dumbo and so you were wrong. 01:18:58 really? how so? 01:19:03 People just can't seem to be objective about themselves and their work. 01:19:20 You're wrong in every way imaginable. 01:19:43 well, I don't read or use any of the information on my site. My own site is useless to me! aaaargh! That's not how I wanted it at all 01:20:19 Hmm... 01:20:19 and it's very, very, rarely visited, ergo it is probably fairly useless to most people 01:20:26 You think so? 01:20:34 well, not all of it. I'm generalizing 01:20:37 Perhaps today... but what about Semantic Web historians? 01:20:41 99% of the site is rubbish 01:20:52 the Semantic Web stuff is useful: it's part of the 1% 01:21:01 30yrs in the future, that xhtml stuff will be very valuable to discerning the growth and change of the Semantic Web's top guy! 01:21:18 that xhtml stuff was rubbish, and you know it 01:21:24 I don't think so. 01:21:36 it was garbage! 01:21:52 Well it's not my fault you're blind *and* dumb! 01:21:57 ;-) 01:22:18 it really is garbage. In fact, it was stupid 01:22:32 just bad material, derogatory. the server is better off without it 01:22:40 and it's gone 01:22:41 Do I have to get your mum to smack you again? 01:22:51 blimey Aaron, just read it! 01:22:54 Nah, I still have it. And I bet you do to. 01:23:18 of course I still have it, but it really isn't on the server, except for /2000/xhtml/homer/ 01:24:12 I mean, you even cited pieces above and laughed at them. And with due cause: they are laughable 01:24:29 The people of the future have no need for XHTML humor? I think not! 01:24:36 what xhtml stuff? 01:24:41 it was hardly humor 01:24:44 http://infomesh.net/2000/xhtml/ 01:24:50 it was waaaaaaay to dry 01:25:00 That's what made it funny! 01:25:53 All information is useful information! 01:26:01 You cannot judge what the future will want/need. 01:26:16 You have no right to kill innocent bits. 01:26:37 TS 01:26:40 * AaronSw puts this at logicerror.com/information 01:26:45 nooooo! 01:26:55 I know you won't, 'cause it will upset me 01:27:09 What will? 01:28:15 Hmm, looks like logster always dies right on the day switchover -- a bug? 01:28:45 er... I was thinking of something different :-) 01:29:07 all information is useful information: no, it depends upon how it is being used 01:29:12 What? The archives of /2000/xhtml/ ? 01:29:23 pardon? 01:29:23 what was the something different? 01:29:26 yes 01:29:36 what was the something different? 01:29:39 The archives of /2000/xhtml/ ? 01:29:46 yes! 01:29:55 ok, just making sure. 01:29:58 * sbp misread what as that 01:30:23 Coming soon to a HavenCo server far away from you ;-) 01:30:32 oh, good! google's cached it. 01:30:33 heh, Stuart "reads what he wants to read" too. When he's reading something, he'll kind of guess what he's reading 01:30:53 Google? Damn it 01:31:28 /html/subs/ "The subdirectories of xhtml.waptechinfo.com are fast growing into a legendary status. They consist of programming junk that is highly future orientated and experimental. Really they are just a hacking playground where I (Sean B. Palmer) can upload some of my experiments to test on the WWW, but also they serve to actually try to influence the future of the Internet itself." 01:32:10 Ugh, at least bring back http://infomesh.net/2000/xhtml/swr/ 01:32:13 That was quite useful. 01:32:25 And I cited it! 01:32:30 http://infomesh.net/swr/ 01:32:38 I moved it ages ago! 01:32:50 Well put a redirect in! 01:32:55 O.K. 01:34:02 done 01:34:16 tx 01:34:35 - /html/subs/: stop citing stuff! please? 01:34:39 "Ideas for XHTML 2.0" is quite good. 01:34:47 "Some Ideas For Review By The HTML WG For XHTML 2.0 01:34:47 " 01:35:01 * sbp cries 01:35:02 Well, I'll just copy the whole page in, shouldn't I. 01:35:10 Oh, I better copy the HTML source in. 01:35:27 You know, I wouldn't want to spam the channel with it -- I'll email it to www-archive 01:35:31 I can threaten you with deleting huge chunks of the server 01:35:42 * AaronSw laughs hysterically! 01:35:55 I will do it. It was a mistake for me to publish that information 01:36:03 now who's going insane? 01:36:03 I'm just kidding. 01:36:23 (add smileys liberally at both ends) 01:36:42 but I do want you to stop citing stuff... 01:37:47 Hmm, this is good fodder for xWebL: 01:37:51 "eXtended Structural Markup Language 1.0 01:37:52 (An eXtensible HyperText Markup Language Family)" 01:37:57 - http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:http://infomesh.net/2000/xhtml/xsml/ 01:38:02 Get it while it's hot! 01:38:14 :-) 01:38:22 that was quite a good demonstration of m12n, actually 01:38:52 Well, I think I've saved all of it now. 01:39:39 Heh, blanu.net: "The Enterprise Portal for the 5 or so people that care what I'm doing." 01:39:50 People really underestimate themselves. 01:40:05 Except for Bush, who misunderestimates himself. ;-) 01:44:03 Sean? 01:44:23 yes? 01:44:42 This silence is bad. What are you doing now? 01:45:24 ahem... 01:45:31 s/doing/deleting/ 01:46:29 I'm trying to work out how to delete the whole thing. it's baffling me now 01:46:40 * AaronSw smacks sbp back and forth! 01:46:52 Quick, give me FTP access 01:46:59 You need an executor. 01:48:20 * sbp wonders what the old program he used is 01:50:00 * AaronSw is a bit worried that the Federal Consumer Information Center was bought by MetLife 01:56:47 right, here we go now... 01:57:29 Noooooooo! 01:57:38 Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! 01:57:47 you don't even know what I'm doing! 01:58:02 I'm just downloading a decent FTP client 01:58:20