IRC log of swhack on 2001-10-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:32:56 [logster]
logster has joined #swhack
00:32:56 [forward.openprojects.net]
topic is: Almost everything has a rational explanation... except for spandex
00:32:56 [forward.openprojects.net]
Users on #swhack: logster tav` tav AaronSw deltab
00:37:59 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw is somewhat embrassed he left his music blasting quite loud the whole time he was out for dinner
01:57:39 [AaronSw]
Mark Nottingham: "Oh, I agree; the RDF stuff has been plagued by wonkishness for a long time, and it's still a big blind spot, IMHO. I feel comfortable with RDF and RDF Schema after prolonged exposure, and then they come along with something like [1]; it *is* enough to make your head hurt."
01:57:42 [AaronSw]
[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-mt/
01:58:28 [AaronSw]
Bill Kearney: "Much like getting an ice-cream headache from eating cold stuff too fast, reading the RDF stuff makes my head hurt. "
01:59:36 [AaronSw]
Don't worry, Mark. We can still be friends. ;-)
02:04:16 [AaronSw]
Heh:
02:04:20 [AaronSw]
"Britain used to "own" the USA - now Britain is the 51st state of the greatest nation on earth, in all but name. No nation is emotionally closer at the moment. I personally cried, out of shock and the affinity I feel with New York and the importance of the whole technology and economic infrastructure of the USA - this was an attack on modernity, capitalism, the human spirit of progress. The world's problems can be solved by technology, and it wi
02:04:20 [AaronSw]
itual and technological emancipation of humankind."
02:04:23 [AaronSw]
- http://wmf.editthispage.com/discuss/msgReader$5848
02:10:20 [AaronSw]
Wow: http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,46412,00.html
06:15:14 [tav]
tav has quit
06:42:27 [tav]
tav has joined #swhack
07:17:44 [tav`]
tav` has quit
07:35:52 [sbp]
sbp has joined #swhack
07:36:10 [sbp]
WFM, it's 8:37AM. AM!
07:37:25 [sbp]
* sbp gets ready for the F2F
07:38:13 [sbp]
lol!
07:39:18 [sbp]
"EARL, EARL, EARL!" - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2001OctDec/0000
07:39:44 [sbp]
* sbp fumbles for the reference. It's not even 9AM yet! Aaaaaaargh!
07:39:56 [sbp]
The sun's in the wrong place! It should be in the West!
07:40:09 [sbp]
Er... if it wasn't cloudy, that is...
07:47:07 [sbp]
Well, here goes!
07:47:10 [sbp]
Gotta run
07:47:12 [sbp]
sbp has quit
08:03:33 [tav`]
tav` has joined #swhack
12:08:29 [sbp]
sbp has joined #swhack
12:11:56 [sbp]
sbp has quit
12:46:29 [Davincii]
Davincii has joined #swhack
12:48:45 [Davincii]
Davincii has left #swhack
13:02:44 [AaronSw]
AaronSw has quit
13:02:57 [AaronSw]
AaronSw has joined #swhack
13:24:32 [AaronSw]
I didn't know Libby was in WAI!
13:30:41 [AaronSw]
"""A FAQ, pronounced either "fack" or "eff aye cue," """ - http://www.w3.org/Consortium/W3C-FAQs
13:31:18 [AaronSw]
I dunno about you, but to me that looks like someone going to great lengths to swear.
13:41:41 [Morbus]
Morbus has joined #swhack
13:42:58 [Morbus]
10.1?
13:44:41 [AaronSw]
10.1!
13:46:07 [Morbus]
whoo!
13:46:15 [AaronSw]
devtools?
13:46:18 [Morbus]
i came in here saturday and no one was around.
13:46:21 [Morbus]
not yet. not on adc.
13:46:22 [Morbus]
you?
13:46:38 [AaronSw]
yeah, saw your message from sat.
13:46:47 [AaronSw]
no devtools :-(
13:46:51 [Morbus]
poo.
13:46:57 [Morbus]
love the script menu though
13:47:06 [Morbus]
my biggest beef so far is that singleclicking on the clock doesn't show the date
13:47:14 [Morbus]
other than that, insanely faster here.
13:47:24 [AaronSw]
well it does sorta show the date -- but i agree it's annoying
13:47:38 [Morbus]
yeah, it shows sunday, right?
13:47:49 [Morbus]
or monday or whatever
13:47:55 [Morbus]
oh. bwahah
13:47:56 [Morbus]
ok. nevermind.
13:48:02 [Morbus]
i never noticed that.
13:48:08 [Morbus]
hehe. i'm stupid.
13:48:26 [AaronSw]
heh
13:48:34 [AaronSw]
But it doesn't format the date right!
13:49:08 [Morbus]
heheheh...
13:49:21 [Morbus]
i'm not sure i like the new alt-tab behavior either.
13:49:33 [AaronSw]
what's the difference?
13:49:41 [Morbus]
or rahter, the visual with the dock
13:49:45 [Morbus]
but the script menu rocks, that it does ;)
13:49:56 [Morbus]
wish i knew applescript.
13:49:56 [Morbus]
trying to find a site that will show new as creations all the time.
13:50:00 [Morbus]
crap that i could stick up there
13:50:10 [AaronSw]
?
13:50:20 [Morbus]
an alt-tab adds this jarring popup of the curr. selected app in the doc
13:50:36 [AaronSw]
I thought it always did that.
13:51:28 [Morbus]
not to me. well, at least, not this jarrring like.
13:51:35 [AaronSw]
hmm
13:51:48 [Morbus]
i think before it justshowed the name over the app, as opposed to magnifying the app
13:56:08 [AaronSw]
Oh... perhaps
13:56:17 [AaronSw]
I have magnification off, so it doesn't magnify for me.
13:56:39 [Morbus]
aaah. ok.
13:56:49 [Morbus]
i have so many things in my dock that it's on the smallest setting.
13:56:54 [Morbus]
so i need a tiny bit of magnify
13:57:22 [Morbus]
have you noticed, at least on my box, that anything that says to open up the prefs in system prefs DOESN't work?
13:57:24 [AaronSw]
eek
13:57:35 [Morbus]
like, apple > dock > dock preferences
13:57:38 [Morbus]
doesn't work.
13:57:40 [AaronSw]
hmm, yes
13:59:15 [Morbus]
they removed the option to ignore permissions on the entire hd.
13:59:27 [Morbus]
now i can't delete crappy default screensavers without using the shell
13:59:37 [Morbus]
or gui-logging in as root
13:59:38 [AaronSw]
hmm, i didn't know that existed
13:59:47 [AaronSw]
don't you always use the shell? ;)
13:59:51 [Morbus]
yah, it was on a getinfo of the hd.
13:59:52 [Morbus]
hehehe
14:00:07 [Morbus]
i still use eudora for mail.
14:00:29 [AaronSw]
hmm, i might have to start using finder now that it's usable
14:01:36 [AaronSw]
ok, gotta run
14:05:25 [Morbus]
Morbus has quit
16:49:49 [sbp]
sbp has joined #swhack
16:55:18 [sbp]
Gotta run
16:56:53 [Morbus]
Morbus has joined #swhack
16:58:19 [sbp]
sbp has quit
17:39:41 [Morbus]
Morbus has left #swhack
17:49:01 [AaronSw]
hi
18:13:47 [AaronSw]
AaronSw has changed the topic to: With your host, sbp, reporting live from the W3C WAI F2F in Brighton, UK! Let's give him a round of applause...
19:29:49 [tav`]
ehm
19:30:01 [tav`]
W3c WAI F2F ?
19:30:28 [AaronSw]
yeah.
19:30:39 [AaronSw]
see http://www.w3.org/WAI/
19:31:48 [AaronSw]
what about that don't you get, tav?
19:32:54 [tav`]
right
19:32:59 [tav`]
what's F2F ?
19:33:13 [AaronSw]
Face 2 Face
19:42:40 [tav`]
right
21:03:30 [AaronSw]
AaronSw has changed the topic to: Happy binary day! (01-10-01) | With your host, sbp, reporting live from the W3C WAI F2F in Brighton, UK! Let's give him a round of applause...
21:15:04 [AaronSw]
(that's 25 in base 10, btw)
22:00:47 [sbp]
sbp has joined #swhack
22:01:07 [sbp]
* sbp bows
22:01:15 [sbp]
lol @ "binary day"
22:01:24 [sbp]
Happy binary day, Aaron!
22:01:36 [AaronSw]
Hey sean!
22:01:39 [sbp]
Hi there
22:01:43 [AaronSw]
How's it going?
22:02:00 [sbp]
I'm so tired! But it's been fun
22:02:15 [AaronSw]
I bet... your enjoyment is infectious. ;)
22:02:28 [sbp]
?
22:02:45 [AaronSw]
Never mind.
22:02:50 [sbp]
:-)
22:03:23 [AaronSw]
I didn't know Libby was coming.
22:03:43 [sbp]
Yeah, and possibly DanBri tomorrow
22:03:49 [AaronSw]
Neato!
22:04:06 [sbp]
I saw a milkman this morning! A milkman!
22:04:17 [AaronSw]
They're rare around your parts?
22:04:33 [sbp]
They're rare at the time of day that I'm usually up for :-)
22:04:45 [AaronSw]
Heh. I've heard of their existance, but not seen one.
22:05:08 [AaronSw]
So another Jewish Holiday tonight... I guess I'll miss the rest of the F2F. :-(
22:05:11 [sbp]
and I saw a few squirrels, and a woodpecker
22:05:22 [AaronSw]
See what happens when you wake up early!
22:05:25 [sbp]
Jewish Holiday: which one now?
22:05:40 [sbp]
what happens - I get very tired!
22:05:40 [AaronSw]
Sukkot. At least it's a fun one.
22:05:45 [AaronSw]
Heh.
22:05:59 [AaronSw]
I dunno, I remember Sukkot coming later last year.
22:06:17 [sbp]
"This festival is sometimes referred to as Zeman Simkhateinu, the Season of our Rejoicing." - http://www.jewfaq.org/holiday5.htm
22:06:35 [sbp]
Hmm... five days after Yom Kippur. Does Yom Kippur have a variable date?
22:06:47 [AaronSw]
Well, it's not variable, but it's on a lunar calendar.
22:06:57 [AaronSw]
(At least I don't think it's variable.)
22:07:05 [sbp]
Ah
22:07:07 [AaronSw]
But it seems variable to people on a solar calendar.
22:07:16 [sbp]
Yeah :-)
22:07:56 [sbp]
DaveP managed to create an XML representation of our two level tier diagram, and produce an XSLT sheet to display it
22:08:17 [AaronSw]
Neat. Two-tier diagram?
22:08:26 [sbp]
Al gave a talk about Device Independence, and the User => Target Service process
22:08:35 [sbp]
Two tier: the scope of XML GL...
22:08:47 [sbp]
(or whatever; we might not be calling it XMLGL even)
22:09:01 [AaronSw]
I see.
22:09:32 [sbp]
We have the language tiers: * XML Core * RDFS, XSLT, etc. * XHTML, MathML, SMIL, VoiceML, SVG * SSML, XSL-FO
22:09:52 [AaronSw]
s/RDFS/RDF/
22:10:08 [AaronSw]
right?
22:10:13 [sbp]
Well, we're not sure...
22:10:38 [sbp]
and the user tiers: * Schema developer * Solution developers * instance creators/users
22:10:52 [sbp]
s/user/user\/creator
22:11:31 [sbp]
we decided that XML GL is scoped *towards* the XHTML... tier, and the schema developer tier, but that there are intersections between the various tiers
22:12:05 [sbp]
We also decided that a separate document explaining how all of these tiers fit into a time based process might be useful, possibly in conjunction with DI
22:12:35 [sbp]
And we went through some of the issues raised on wai-tech-comments
22:13:39 [sbp]
Gotta run
22:13:41 [AaronSw]
Neat. Sounds like you were busy.
22:13:43 [AaronSw]
See you later.
22:13:56 [AaronSw]
Send my best to the WG.
22:16:40 [sbp]
sbp has quit
22:22:16 [Morbus]
Morbus has joined #swhack
22:22:33 [AaronSw]
'lo
22:22:54 [Morbus]
hey.
22:24:28 [Morbus]
i had this idea to run a perl script through cron that would modify the names of some files in the Script folder, so that when you click on the ScriptMenu, you'd see the weather and so forth without having to run anything
22:24:36 [Morbus]
(since we'd rename Script items to the current entry)
22:24:50 [AaronSw]
That'd be cool.
22:24:56 [AaronSw]
But what would the scripts do?
22:25:17 [Morbus]
nothing really <g>... they'd just be stubs there to be renamed.
22:26:05 [AaronSw]
Hmm, the Scripts folder doesn't seem to change the menu
22:26:25 [Morbus]
eh? when i add things into the Scripts folder, they show up in the scriptmenu
22:26:41 [AaronSw]
Hmm, do they have to be scripts?
22:26:54 [AaronSw]
You know it might just be easier to write your own .menu ;)
22:26:59 [Morbus]
i doubt it - how would it be able to disctinuguish between perl / as / shell
22:27:04 [Morbus]
heheh. yeah, you know how? ;)
22:27:31 [AaronSw]
Heh.. can't be too hard! ;)
22:29:09 [Morbus]
welp, if you shell into ScriptMenu.menu, it has the same sort of dir structure as others. including a TODOish like file ;)
22:29:36 [AaronSw]
or ctrl-click
22:29:46 [Morbus]
yeah, but that's so gui-ish ;)
22:32:10 [AaronSw]
Hmm, I can't get anything to appear in the scriptMenu
22:32:47 [Morbus]
really? can you see the default entrier?
22:32:53 [Morbus]
when you "open script folder" what shows up?
22:33:08 [AaronSw]
A finder window with just the files i've added
22:33:19 [AaronSw]
I can see the default stuff -- Basic, Finder Scripts
22:33:22 [Morbus]
and you don't see those reflected n the script?
22:33:22 [AaronSw]
but none of my own
22:33:56 [Morbus]
interesting. i've added only one file in root of Scripts, and it has ????/???? for creator type. runs fine.
22:34:10 [AaronSw]
"reflected n the script" ? i don't follow
22:34:27 [Morbus]
forget that one.
22:35:18 [AaronSw]
where's that script to restart menuserver?
22:35:47 [Morbus]
on the as site... where you got these from.
22:36:02 [AaronSw]
oh, i thought it came iwth.
22:37:06 [AaronSw]
hmmph, script menu died then
22:38:20 [AaronSw]
am i supposed to put it somewhere special?
22:38:23 [AaronSw]
ok, now stuff works
22:38:38 [Morbus]
i juststuck mine in Applications, then dragged to the menu bar
22:38:53 [AaronSw]
Yeah, me too.
22:39:02 [AaronSw]
Ooh, now they have icons.
22:39:06 [Morbus]
jehhehe
22:45:06 [AaronSw]
I love the Perl script on this page: ;)
22:45:08 [AaronSw]
- http://www.apple.com/applescript/macosx/script_menu/
22:45:17 [Morbus]
hehe. i know, i saw that. <g>
22:47:47 [Morbus]
connect.apple.com is down - i'm hoping its' to upgrade the devtools
22:48:18 [AaronSw]
cool
22:48:27 [Morbus]
cos cvs doesn't work.
22:48:28 [Morbus]
:(
22:49:50 [AaronSw]
Wow, I got an email from Avie Tevanian's sister-in-law!
22:49:58 [Morbus]
hehehe. what for?
22:50:05 [AaronSw]
"Enjoyed your site! We particularly found the Avie Tevanian office photos amusing."
22:50:22 [Morbus]
hehe. kick ass :)
22:53:33 [Morbus]
oh yeah, did you see that as book on xml-rpc/soap?
22:53:37 [Morbus]
i got the url around here
22:54:43 [AaronSw]
The O'Reilly book on XML-RPC?
22:55:13 [Morbus]
no, its a specific one from apple. on using applescript to make soap/xml-rpc calls
22:55:19 [AaronSw]
Oh, yes.
22:55:23 [AaronSw]
Wes pointed to it.
22:55:24 [Morbus]
ah. pl
22:55:26 [Morbus]
ok
22:55:35 [AaronSw]
pl?
22:55:44 [Morbus]
yeah, they're right next to ok ;)
22:55:53 [AaronSw]
;)
23:07:54 [sbp]
sbp has joined #swhack
23:09:05 [AaronSw]
wb
23:09:12 [sbp]
ty
23:09:23 [AaronSw]
np
23:09:32 [AaronSw]
wu
23:09:51 [AaronSw]
?
23:10:05 [sbp]
p?
23:10:33 [AaronSw]
p?
23:10:41 [sbp]
p
23:10:42 [AaronSw]
wu = what's up, to which you respond nm = not much
23:10:48 [AaronSw]
p?
23:10:52 [Morbus]
:P
23:10:53 [sbp]
nm
23:11:11 [sbp]
p = pardon, to which you simply restate your abbreviation
23:11:33 [AaronSw]
ah
23:11:50 [sbp]
he
23:11:50 [sbp]
he
23:11:51 [sbp]
he
23:11:51 [Morbus]
aaronSw, you know how to change the destop bg in as?
23:12:04 [AaronSw]
as?
23:12:09 [AaronSw]
oh, i see
23:12:16 [AaronSw]
not off hand -- look in the finder's dictionary
23:12:19 [Morbus]
applescript
23:12:23 [Morbus]
yah, i did, but i dont have a clue
23:12:35 [AaronSw]
hmm, i dunno
23:12:50 [AaronSw]
OK, have to go soon
23:13:19 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw prepares for holiday...
23:13:32 [Morbus]
holiday?
23:13:45 [AaronSw]
Sukkot starts tonight
23:13:54 [Morbus]
ah. you have a lot of holidays
23:13:56 [AaronSw]
So, are you ready for tomorrow, sbp?
23:13:59 [Morbus]
i don't celebreate any holidsa
23:14:06 [AaronSw]
Ah.
23:14:25 [Morbus]
not even my bd or xmas
23:14:29 [sbp]
Yeah, I'm just about to go to bed; very tired
23:14:45 [AaronSw]
Good, I don't have to buy you a present then.
23:14:50 [Morbus]
:D
23:14:57 [AaronSw]
sbp, rest up! More fun is in store ;)
23:15:02 [Morbus]
well, lord forgive me if i press my beliefs on others.
23:15:12 [Morbus]
if you got my a presetnt, i'd justhave to begrudgingly accept it ;)
23:15:21 [AaronSw]
hehehe
23:15:41 [AaronSw]
sbp, make them encode their graph in RDF.
23:15:48 [AaronSw]
and use danc's nodes and arcs tools
23:15:59 [sbp]
what graph? Oh that... yeah, I was thinking of that
23:16:10 [sbp]
can Dan's stuff do DAML intersections and so on?
23:16:30 [AaronSw]
I don't think so -- it's just nodes and arcs
23:16:55 [sbp]
We need intersections... and we need a way of structuring the tiers as well
23:17:20 [AaronSw]
Hm.
23:17:34 [AaronSw]
Well, they can always add features.
23:17:44 [AaronSw]
Or create a different tool that also uses RDF.
23:18:07 [sbp]
cool: http://www.w3.org/2001/02pd/opksnet.png
23:18:17 [sbp]
yeah, it needs a specialist tool really
23:18:35 [sbp]
* sbp wonders what will happen to N3, and the logic rules...
23:19:00 [AaronSw]
happen in what way?
23:19:02 [sbp]
Are rules files in Notation3 "persistent", d'ya reckon?
23:19:11 [sbp]
Happen, as in support for them in the future
23:19:29 [sbp]
I mean, DanC has often said no warranty whatsoever, which is a shame
23:19:30 [deltab]
hrm, another black background
23:19:38 [AaronSw]
What warranty would you like?
23:20:17 [AaronSw]
deltab, your sw must be broken
23:20:32 [AaronSw]
sbp, they're as persistent as anything else... the URIs aren't gonna break
23:20:40 [sbp]
Just a commitment to get a Working Group on it, and discussing rules/inferences in RDF
23:21:08 [sbp]
Yeah, but it's like investing in Betamax, isn't it?
23:21:14 [AaronSw]
www-rdf-rules
23:21:28 [AaronSw]
Betamax: no -- there'll be converters, i'm sure
23:21:30 [sbp]
That's kinda a subset of inferences
23:21:45 [AaronSw]
how so?
23:22:09 [sbp]
er... my mistake, I guess it's not
23:22:33 [sbp]
But CWM is on a more advanced level to everything else, and it would be a shame if that work just kinda got steamrollered over
23:22:38 [sbp]
* sbp wonders how best to put it
23:22:45 [AaronSw]
I was thinking of adding a 'that' or '...' term to N3 to make statements about asserted statements.
23:23:08 [Morbus]
Morbus has quit
23:23:09 [sbp]
just reify it
23:23:09 [AaronSw]
sbp, DanC and TimBL are the guys making these deciisons -- they won't steamroller their own work!
23:23:19 [AaronSw]
reification is wrong for this
23:23:23 [AaronSw]
statements need uris
23:23:31 [sbp]
statements can have URIs
23:23:38 [AaronSw]
not asserted ones
23:24:22 [sbp]
<http://example.org/blargh> rdf:subject :x; rdf:predicate :y; rdf:object :y .
23:24:33 [AaronSw]
how is that asserted?
23:24:54 [sbp]
er... I see what you mean
23:25:03 [sbp]
well, you just create a new set of properties
23:25:14 [AaronSw]
but then older processors don't understand them
23:25:20 [AaronSw]
it needs to be built into the language
23:25:37 [sbp]
so? older processors won't understand "that" either. They won't understand any addition
23:25:52 [sbp]
the point of the SW is that you don't have to beg to the authorities to add these features!
23:26:08 [AaronSw]
Hmm, well I think it needs to go into RDF 2.0.
23:26:12 [AaronSw]
It's part of the foundation.
23:26:25 [sbp]
perhaps. But perhaps so does DAML, and Dublin Core
23:26:31 [AaronSw]
Nope.
23:26:40 [AaronSw]
Why do they need to go into the language?
23:26:46 [AaronSw]
That wouldn't make sense.
23:26:54 [AaronSw]
It needs to be added to N-triples, is what I'm saying.
23:27:02 [AaronSw]
It needs to be part of the abstract syntax.
23:27:11 [sbp]
you can't add it to NTriples... how would you do so?
23:27:20 [AaronSw]
N-Triples 2.0
23:27:24 [AaronSw]
for RDF 2.0
23:27:26 [sbp]
give me an example
23:27:48 [AaronSw]
_:triple1 := :a :b :c .
23:28:02 [AaronSw]
_:triple2 := _:triple1 :g :f .
23:28:05 [sbp]
5-ary relationships?
23:28:12 [AaronSw]
only 4
23:28:23 [AaronSw]
and it's not a relationship -- just giving the triple a name
23:28:42 [sbp]
what triples/quads would result from such a thing?
23:28:50 [AaronSw]
those are the quads
23:29:16 [sbp]
so you're just adding statement IDs. So just do it that way then!
23:29:25 [sbp]
:a :b :c _:triple1 .
23:29:29 [AaronSw]
Yes, that's another way to call it.
23:29:45 [sbp]
in that case, it should probably have contexts too
23:29:56 [AaronSw]
No, you can build contexts from that.
23:30:05 [AaronSw]
_:context1 :contains _:triple1 .
23:30:07 [sbp]
no, because contexts aren't asserted
23:30:16 [sbp]
well...
23:30:21 [AaronSw]
How do you determine what's asserted? from context.
23:30:35 [sbp]
you can build asserted statements in triples, so you don't need any extension
23:30:42 [AaronSw]
_:triple1 rdf:type :UnAsserted
23:30:58 [sbp]
you can't put StIDs into the actual syntax of RDF, and then leave contexts to the model
23:31:04 [AaronSw]
_:triple1 :said :John .
23:31:13 [AaronSw]
Why not?
23:31:25 [sbp]
itdoesn't make sense! it's hypocritical
23:31:30 [AaronSw]
how?
23:31:50 [sbp]
because you can model both, or put both into the syntax. Why do one one way, and one the other?
23:32:08 [AaronSw]
Because only one needs to be part of the syntax.
23:32:17 [AaronSw]
With statement ids, you can model contexts. not the other way around
23:32:27 [AaronSw]
(or at least it's a real pain)
23:32:41 [sbp]
you can model statement ID's!
23:32:47 [sbp]
it's not that much of a pain...
23:32:59 [AaronSw]
how?
23:33:06 [sbp]
_:a :s :x; :p :y; :o :z .
23:33:16 [sbp]
:s rdfs:domain :AssertedStatement .
23:33:37 [AaronSw]
that doesn't make sense!
23:33:54 [sbp]
huh? makes perfect sense
23:34:03 [AaronSw]
it's not really being asserted, then
23:34:29 [AaronSw]
all that's happening is some applications are magically interpreting that
23:34:35 [sbp]
of course it is, because that's how the properties :s :p and :o are defined
23:34:40 [sbp]
same with your :contains!
23:34:51 [sbp]
<AaronSw> _:context1 :contains _:triple1 .
23:35:04 [AaronSw]
We clearly know that's being asserted.
23:35:10 [AaronSw]
not talked about.
23:35:16 [AaronSw]
it's obvious from the language
23:35:17 [sbp]
pardon me?
23:35:31 [AaronSw]
You can talk about a triple: ":a :b :c ." is interesting.
23:35:40 [AaronSw]
And you can assert it: ":a :b :c ."
23:35:49 [AaronSw]
those actions must be part of the language.
23:35:59 [sbp]
but they can be modelled!
23:36:02 [AaronSw]
well, the second one.
23:36:05 [AaronSw]
no, they can't!
23:36:12 [sbp]
yes, they can!
23:36:25 [AaronSw]
hmm, how do i explain it.
23:36:36 [AaronSw]
you can pretend to do them thru modeling, but the language still lacks the expressiveenss
23:36:46 [sbp]
yes, and it's the same with contexts!
23:36:57 [AaronSw]
why?
23:36:57 [AaronSw]
programs need to know when they can do inferences and when they can't
23:37:00 [sbp]
your " _:context1 :contains _:triple1 ." thing should be in the language
23:37:04 [AaronSw]
why?
23:37:19 [AaronSw]
Programs that believe in :contains would obviously know what it is.
23:37:20 [sbp]
because the langauge will otherwise lack the expressiveness to have contexts
23:37:30 [AaronSw]
you're asking everyone to belive in :s -- they don't necessarily know about it.
23:37:38 [sbp]
programs that believe in :s :p and :o would obviously know what they are
23:37:52 [AaronSw]
but you're asking even programs that don't to belive in it!
23:38:09 [AaronSw]
so you end up with programs that don't know about it, and so don't understand your asserted triples, even when they should.
23:38:11 [sbp]
why would a program not believe it?
23:38:28 [AaronSw]
it wouldn't
23:38:35 [AaronSw]
they all should, but they don't -- that's a bug
23:38:44 [sbp]
Pffffff, a bug...
23:38:50 [AaronSw]
they don't believe because they don't understand that it's being asserted
23:38:57 [AaronSw]
they think it's just a regual :p property
23:39:02 [AaronSw]
regular, rather
23:39:47 [sbp]
I really don't think that you can treat stIDs (labelling a statement) and contexts (labelling a set of statements) all that differently
23:40:15 [AaronSw]
think about it while i'm away
23:40:24 [sbp]
you're asking programs to believe in :context when they don't...
23:40:30 [AaronSw]
how?
23:40:33 [sbp]
s/:context/:contains
23:40:51 [sbp]
in the same way that you just told me that they wont believe in :s .. etc.
23:41:08 [AaronSw]
No, because I only expect programs that understand the context to believe in it.
23:41:29 [sbp]
that doesn't make any sense to me... perhaps I'm tired
23:41:39 [AaronSw]
i've got to run... perhaps you're right... i might need to model both.
23:41:47 [AaronSw]
see you later
23:41:55 [sbp]
c'ya; have fun!!!
23:41:59 [AaronSw]
thanks!
23:42:02 [AaronSw]
you too!!
23:42:05 [sbp]
np. Thanks for chatting
23:42:09 [sbp]
I'll try! :-)
23:42:26 [AaronSw]
no, thank you
23:42:40 [sbp]
no, sorry, thank *you* :-)
23:42:54 [AaronSw]
tx. bye ;)
23:42:59 [sbp]
c'ya
23:46:16 [sbp]
sbp has quit