IRC log of swhack on 2001-09-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

01:33:17 [logster]

logster has joined #swhack

01:33:17 [benford.openprojects.net]

topic is: The Semantic Web: Better Pizzas

01:33:17 [benford.openprojects.net]

Users on #swhack: logster @sbp AaronSw tav|offline deltab

01:33:26 [sbp]

Hi!

01:33:28 [sbp]

Guess what I'm doing now?

01:33:29 [AaronSw]

Hi there

01:33:33 [AaronSw]

What?

01:33:44 [AaronSw]

Sheesh, this is my airport: http://larve.net/people/hugo/pictures/2001/09/15/ohare

01:33:53 [AaronSw]

Makes you want to take a train.

01:34:14 [sbp]

guess/yes

01:34:29 [AaronSw]

Hmmm...

01:34:41 [sbp]

* sbp snjoys doing this periodically

01:34:49 [sbp]

s/snjoys/enjoys

01:34:56 [AaronSw]

Writing in some esoteric language?

01:35:27 [sbp]

Nop

01:35:35 [sbp]

s/Nop/Nope

01:35:48 [AaronSw]

Hacking some new SW project?

01:35:55 [AaronSw]

Hosting friends?

01:36:09 [AaronSw]

Hmm: Last login: Fri Sep 14 12:23:28 2001 from richschol.lfc.edu

01:36:16 [AaronSw]

rich school?

01:36:23 [sbp]

the first one... but what project?

01:36:32 [AaronSw]

Trust/Proof?

01:36:33 [sbp]

rich school: spelt wrong

01:36:38 [sbp]

well... kinda

01:36:53 [AaronSw]

Give me a hint here

01:37:04 [sbp]

* sbp uploads his work

01:37:11 [sbp]

It's getting to be quite big

01:37:41 [sbp]

And I've only been doing it for a few hours! Probably has loads of typos... but it's good

01:38:00 [sbp]

it's now online...

01:38:13 [AaronSw]

Hmm, I give up.

01:38:15 [sbp]

Oh alright...

01:38:17 [sbp]

Here: http://infomesh.net/2001/swintro/

01:38:47 [AaronSw]

Hmmph, I should've known.

01:38:54 [sbp]

Of course :-)

01:39:07 [AaronSw]

You always copy my good ideas! Pick the bad ones once in a while... ;-)

01:39:22 [sbp]

I'm getting a bit embarassed having to point people at whatIsSW all of the time; it's soooooo out of date!

01:39:37 [AaronSw]

semanticWeb-long!

01:39:41 [sbp]

Pffff, copy your good ideas. How many SW introductions have I written?

01:40:05 [AaronSw]

Aleph null?

01:40:12 [sbp]

"Pick the bad ones once in a while..." you never have bad ideas!!!

01:40:20 [sbp]

pardon?

01:40:31 [AaronSw]

An infinite amount?

01:40:40 [sbp]

an almost infinite amount

01:40:45 [AaronSw]

(A relatively small infinite amount)

01:40:51 [sbp]

yeah, that's it

01:41:20 [sbp]

where x is the largest number that will ever be conjected, I have written y introductions, where y = x+1

01:41:29 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw wonders what the larger infinite amounts are named... never got that far though

01:41:45 [sbp]

larger infinite amounts: herbert

01:42:09 [AaronSw]

You do know there are larger infinite amounts, don't you?

01:42:18 [sbp]

pointer?

01:42:47 [sbp]

I know that there are many types of infinity... I want to a really cool lecture about it once

01:42:50 [AaronSw]

Ohh, it's a great proof.

01:43:06 [sbp]

better than my x = x + 1 proof?

01:43:41 [AaronSw]

I'm not sure I saw that... is that the one that tricks folks who can't do polynomials?

01:44:00 [sbp]

ugh, polynomials...

01:44:10 [sbp]

nope, I just showed you the gist of it

01:44:39 [AaronSw]

Oh, I see.

01:44:42 [AaronSw]

No...

01:45:12 [AaronSw]

It goes like this:

01:45:43 [sbp]

the greatest number that will ever be conjectured is infinity, proving that infinity is a number. Proof: x is a variable representing the highest number that will ever be conjectured. y = x + 1. y is the highest number ever conjectured. y = x. x = x + 1. The only thing that satisfies x is infinity. A flawed proof... :-)

01:45:44 [AaronSw]

Assume that the set of decimals is the same sitze as the set of counting numbers.

01:45:56 [AaronSw]

So you line up all the deciml numbers in a list:

01:46:04 [AaronSw]

1) 0.112838338

01:46:09 [AaronSw]

2) 0.2489389389

01:46:11 [AaronSw]

etc.

01:46:35 [AaronSw]

Well, you can always go down the list diagonally, taking the first digit from the first number, the second digit from the second number, etc.

01:46:40 [AaronSw]

forming a new number that's not in the list

01:46:54 [sbp]

* sbp spots that the flaw to any proof is in the "assume that"

01:47:04 [AaronSw]

Thus the assumption leads to contradiction

01:47:15 [AaronSw]

and that makes the assumption false.

01:47:39 [AaronSw]

It's called Cantor's Diagonalization Argument.

01:47:47 [sbp]

cool name

01:47:52 [sbp]

and the solution is?

01:48:08 [AaronSw]

Well, the solution is that the number of decimals is larger than the integers.

01:48:27 [sbp]

but both are infinite, surely? :-)

01:48:38 [AaronSw]

Yes, but one infinite number is bigger than the other.

01:48:41 [deltab]

yes - but different types of inifinte

01:48:49 [AaronSw]

One is plainly bigger!

01:48:53 [AaronSw]

More: http://www.scidiv.bcc.ctc.edu/Math/diag.html

01:48:54 [deltab]

yup

01:49:02 [sbp]

yep, this is the same thing that the guy lectured us on

01:49:21 [AaronSw]

Ahh, cool. Dad keeps wanting to teach it to the 5th graders at school.

01:49:34 [sbp]

Why not?

01:49:54 [AaronSw]

No reason, just times never seem to work out

01:50:12 [sbp]

Bummer

01:51:05 [AaronSw]

Where'd you hear the proof, deltab?

01:51:23 [AaronSw]

Dad taught it to me on the kitchen counter when I was six or something, I remember it vividly.

01:51:41 [sbp]

wow, neat

01:51:45 [deltab]

of Cantor's diagonal argument? In a book by Martin Gardner

01:52:05 [AaronSw]

Cool. He has some great books.

01:52:20 [AaronSw]

We jokingly call him Marvin Gardens around the house. ;-)

01:53:07 [sbp]

Have you done anything about transcendialism with large numbers yet?

01:56:52 [sbp]

Marvin Gardens?

01:57:01 [AaronSw]

From Monopoly.

01:57:13 [sbp]

oh, American Monopoly

01:57:20 [AaronSw]

Oh, is it different in the UK?

01:57:30 [sbp]

Of course! We have British places

01:57:44 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw didn't realize the American places were all that American

01:57:44 [sbp]

Park Lane, Mayfair, Old Kent Road

01:58:15 [sbp]

The Strand, Bond Street, Regents Street, Kings Cross Station, Electric Company... er

01:58:25 [sbp]

Pall Mall, and so on

01:58:27 [AaronSw]

Well, we have an Electric Company!

01:58:32 [sbp]

yes :-)

01:58:59 [sbp]

Wow, 18 messages... where did they come from?

01:59:06 [AaronSw]

So, how old are you, deltab?

01:59:31 [deltab]

a decade your senior

01:59:48 [sbp]

Wow, old man :-)

01:59:50 [deltab]

24 on Monday

02:00:04 [AaronSw]

Wow, I would have guessed older. Happy unbirthday!

02:00:54 [AaronSw]

Another brit, I'd guess?

02:00:57 [deltab]

yes

02:01:06 [deltab]

Birmingham

02:01:08 [sbp]

Ha, we're teaming up

02:01:37 [AaronSw]

Hmm, I guess 24 is rather old. All so far away, it seems.

02:03:34 [sbp]

So, what shall I do with swintro?

02:04:13 [AaronSw]

Hmmz

02:04:18 [sbp]

* sbp wonders if a more appropriate question might have been "where shall I stick it?"

02:04:23 [AaronSw]

Wish you'd help improve semanticWeb-long

02:04:58 [sbp]

I think it's a good base level introduction

02:05:25 [AaronSw]

What'd you think of that other overview piece you pointed me to yesterday?

02:05:34 [sbp]

note how swintro says nothing about shared meaning on the same level that you do. I'd tell people to read semanticWeb-long before they read swintro

02:05:40 [sbp]

what overview piece?

02:05:56 [sbp]

Oh that... too out of date

02:06:12 [AaronSw]

The diffuse one, out of date already?

02:06:37 [sbp]

yeah, well out of date. But like all SW primers, it covers a different aspect of the SW

02:06:53 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw considers merging swintro with semanticWeb-long

02:07:04 [sbp]

it's slightly more broad... it covers many things that I don't really consider to be a part of the Semantic Web

02:07:15 [AaronSw]

What I really wanted to do was to break up semanticWeb-long into a bunch of in-depth pieces on each layer.

02:07:35 [sbp]

I think that the value of semanticWeb-long is that it can be explained to a mother

02:07:57 [AaronSw]

And target audience for swintro?

02:08:09 [sbp]

[ :disjointFrom :Mother ] .

02:08:12 [sbp]

:-)

02:08:34 [AaronSw]

forAll or forSome?

02:08:35 [sbp]

no, more for people who've already read a few piles of crap about RDF and the Semantic Web

02:08:42 [sbp]

and are just a bit baffled

02:08:58 [sbp]

forSome: it's an anonymous node

02:09:02 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw skims it -- ahh, i see

02:09:10 [sbp]

the class of people which aren't Mothers

02:09:26 [AaronSw]

That's what I was asking: all non-Moms or just some?

02:09:30 [sbp]

yep, it's a bit more involved. It's not really a primer; more of an essay

02:09:38 [sbp]

Hmm... not sure

02:09:56 [AaronSw]

You and Morbus need to get together and form the rant squad

02:10:15 [sbp]

I think you're right. It only rants a little bit though, towards the bottom

02:10:42 [sbp]

especially under "Intertingling"

02:10:45 [AaronSw]

Hmm, it needs a style sheet.

02:10:58 [sbp]

s/Intertingling/Intertwingling

02:11:00 [sbp]

of course

02:11:04 [AaronSw]

Speaking of stylesheets, did you see the one on http://www.w3.org/QA/ ?

02:11:10 [sbp]

I just put it online to show you

02:11:19 [sbp]

yes, I noticed the QA stylesheet...

02:11:22 [AaronSw]

QA: I love it. It might be good for the validator.

02:11:39 [deltab]

what about it? (no graphical browser)

02:11:57 [sbp]

takes ages to load though! (comparatively)

02:12:05 [AaronSw]

I just think it's pretty, nice clean text, sort of dashed-line separators.

02:12:29 [AaronSw]

Nice gray and blue color scheme

02:47:45 [AaronSw]

Hmm: "antireligious (and that includes astrology, homeopathy, and marriage.) ", http://kbs.cs.tu-berlin.de/~jutta/me/whois.html

02:48:44 [sbp]

he he he

02:48:45 [sbp]

[[[

02:48:46 [sbp]

No more of those slam your dick in the door and still not feel anything condoms.

02:48:52 [sbp]

]]] - http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/No_20more_20condoms#1000544945-13-1

02:48:57 [sbp]

yeah, I read that bit too

02:49:00 [AaronSw]

heheh

02:50:03 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw considers us _Dan Connolly_ invented the _World Wide Web_ as an example. ;-)

02:50:17 [sbp]

[[[

02:50:18 [sbp]

Any whores that don't obey these laws will have their license revoked and they won't be allowed to "practice", like a doctor.

02:50:25 [sbp]

]]] - http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Prostitution#1000589523-6-1

02:50:29 [sbp]

example of what?

02:51:07 [sbp]

he he he

02:51:08 [sbp]

[[[

02:51:09 [sbp]

Wouldn't it be cool if there were even brothel franchises, like McDonald's or Starbucks? There would even be whorehouse commercials, with Ronald McSlut, the whorehouse clown. Okay, just kidding about the last part.

02:51:12 [sbp]

]]] - ibid.

02:51:26 [AaronSw]

Heh.

02:51:36 [AaronSw]

Hmm, where's that Joe Clark page that's chock full of links?

02:51:50 [AaronSw]

example: of what to do instead of click here.

02:53:56 [sbp]

Hmm... interesting: http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/PIN_20surprise#1000548361-12-1

02:54:44 [sbp]

Wouldn't work in practice

03:05:09 [AaronSw]

Have a good page about screen readers to help inform sighted people?

03:05:31 [sbp]

Hmm... not to hand, no

03:05:35 [AaronSw]

Ooh, http://www.w3.org/WAI/References/Browsing

03:14:28 [sbp]

Ah! The good ol' WAI. I'll bet that's an EO thing...

03:14:50 [sbp]

Hmm... Chaals last updated it

03:17:41 [sbp]

Gotta run

03:19:06 [AaronSw]

c'ya

03:20:41 [sbp]

sbp has quit

03:49:43 [sbp]

sbp has joined #swhack

04:01:01 [AaronSw]

Hmm, I need to syndicate this page as RSS:

04:01:01 [AaronSw]

http://kgate.virtual.net/cgi-bin/wiki.cgi?action=Browse&id=SeptemberDisaster

04:59:20 [sbp]

from #dotgnu

04:59:20 [AaronSw]

Ooh. I am the proud co-author of:

04:59:20 [sbp]

*** Now talking in #dotgnu

04:59:21 [sbp]

*** chillywilly has joined #dotgnu

04:59:21 [sbp]

*** MisterP has joined #dotgnu

04:59:21 [sbp]

<MisterP> Yo

04:59:21 [sbp]

<chillywilly> yo

04:59:22 [sbp]

<sbp> yo

04:59:24 [sbp]

*** crazney has quit IRC (Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.0.0)

04:59:26 [sbp]

<sbp> yo-yo?

04:59:28 [sbp]

<sbp> no

04:59:30 [sbp]

<sbp> so?

04:59:32 [sbp]

<sbp> dunno

04:59:38 [AaronSw]

oh?

04:59:53 [sbp]

thanks, I just added that

05:00:00 [sbp]

what are you the co-author of?

05:00:03 [AaronSw]

Swartz, A. and Hendler, J. The Semantic Web: A Network of Content for the Digital City, Proceedings Second Annual Digital Cities Workshop, Kyoto, Japan, October, 2001.

05:00:31 [sbp]

Ooh, wow

05:00:45 [AaronSw]

TimBL better watch out or he'll lose his job! ;-)

05:00:53 [sbp]

your first scientifically published paper?

05:00:59 [AaronSw]

Perhaps so.

05:01:08 [AaronSw]

It brings my Erdos number to three.

05:01:16 [AaronSw]

Which is rather impressive, better than my Dad, even

05:01:21 [sbp]

Erdos?

05:01:34 [AaronSw]

Paul Erdös, a famous mathematician.

05:01:44 [sbp]

pointer?

05:01:54 [AaronSw]

He wrote many papers and since then people have created a scheme of Erdös numbers.

05:01:59 [AaronSw]

His number is 0.

05:02:07 [AaronSw]

People who co-authored with him have 1.

05:02:09 [AaronSw]

and so on

05:02:13 [sbp]

ah, I see

05:02:22 [sbp]

so my Erdos number is 4

05:02:29 [sbp]

if yours is 3...

05:02:40 [AaronSw]

I think it only really counts for refereed papers.

05:02:45 [AaronSw]

But who knows.

05:03:02 [sbp]

we must write a refereed paper!

05:03:05 [AaronSw]

Yes!

05:03:12 [AaronSw]

Oh dear...

05:03:16 [AaronSw]

I can't bare to put it up on the web. It includes the text "click here".

05:03:20 [sbp]

I presume that JimH has an Erdos number of 2 then

05:03:28 [sbp]

Oh dear oh dear...

05:03:35 [AaronSw]

bear? bare?

05:03:45 [AaronSw]

that's one i'm actually not sure on

05:04:04 [sbp]

what context?

05:04:16 [AaronSw]

Other such errors are further evidence that I chat with the speaking portion of my brain and not the writing one.

05:04:27 [AaronSw]

context: above sentence: "I can't bare..."

05:04:30 [sbp]

yes... me too

05:05:04 [AaronSw]

Not to mention that the paper is in MS Word. :-(

05:05:21 [sbp]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!

05:05:31 [sbp]

anyway, gotta run...

05:05:37 [AaronSw]

C'ya

05:08:33 [sbp]

sbp has quit

06:06:25 [AaronSw]

AaronSw has quit

07:00:15 [AaronSw]

AaronSw has joined #swhack

14:21:04 [AaronSw]

AaronSw has quit

14:21:50 [AaronSw]

AaronSw has joined #swhack

16:35:26 [sbp]

sbp has joined #swhack

16:36:29 [sbp]

[[[

16:36:30 [sbp]

Note that Notation3 introduces a "context" construct, enabling one to group statements together and quantify over them using a specially designed logic vocabulary. Using this vocabulary, for example, one can express "or", using NANDs:-

16:36:30 [sbp]

{ { :Joe :loves :TheSimpsons } a log:Falsehood .

16:36:30 [sbp]

{ :Joe :is :Nuts } a log:Falsehood .

16:36:30 [sbp]

} a log:Falsehood .

16:36:32 [sbp]

Which can be read as "it is not true that Joe does not love The Simpsons and is nuts". I resisted the temptation to make Joe a universally quantified variable.

16:36:37 [sbp]

]]] - http://infomesh.net/2001/swintro/

16:39:56 [sbp]

sbp has quit

16:53:07 [AaronSw]

Oops, missed sbp.

16:53:59 [AaronSw]

Interesting way to do or...

18:39:01 [tav|offline]

tav|offline has quit

19:12:00 [lilo]

[GlobalNotice] Hi all. Services will be down for 15 minutes, perhaps longer. We'll take it down in about 5 minutes. Apologies for the inconvenience.

19:16:38 [sbp]

sbp has joined #swhack

19:27:41 [sbp]

sbp has quit

19:52:00 [lilo]

[GlobalNotice] Please bear with us all, as we reconnect services in a new configuration

19:57:30 [lilo]

[GlobalNotice] Okay, one more shot folks....in a few minutes....this configuration should be a bit more stable

20:03:11 [lilo]

[GlobalNotice] Okay folks, here goes. Expect some splitting as we attempt to connect services in a new configuration. Apologies for the inconvenience.

20:04:30 [ChanServ]

ChanServ has changed the topic to:

20:05:13 [lilo]

[GlobalNotice] That looks like a more reliable connection. Thanks to everyone for your patience, it looks as if we're done.

20:05:47 [AaronSw]

AaronSw has changed the topic to: Happy Birthday, Deltab!

21:29:52 [sbp]

sbp has joined #swhack

21:32:37 [AaronSw]

hello

21:44:08 [sbp]

Hi

21:44:58 [AaronSw]

Can you please review http://logicerror.com/dcrdfDraft ?

21:48:42 [sbp]

Looks good

21:49:13 [sbp]

I like the relations bit at the bottom

21:49:25 [sbp]

You should put those in SWAG-D. I think I already added one

21:49:55 [AaronSw]

Cool.

21:49:59 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw converts into N-Triples.

21:50:07 [AaronSw]

They need to go into one of the DC schemas, for sure.

21:50:33 [sbp]

yeah

21:51:17 [AaronSw]

Does it seem like I'm missing anything?

21:51:25 [AaronSw]

Am I right by taking out the rdf:Bag, Seq definitions?

21:51:57 [sbp]

yes, I think so. I've always thought of them as being a bit redundant... like aboutEachPrefix

21:52:46 [AaronSw]

Yeah.

21:53:05 [AaronSw]

I'm quite proud of the new draft actually -- it's much leaner than the old one and it covers just about all the necessary material.

21:53:37 [sbp]

Yep. What's it going to be published as? And where? DCMI I guess

21:53:57 [AaronSw]

Yes, it'll be the official DCMI DC-in-RDF draft if I'm lucky.

22:03:23 [sbp]

Aaron, I've added a note at the top of http://infomesh.net/2001/swintro/

22:03:36 [sbp]

Telling people to read semanticWeb-long first...

22:03:37 [AaronSw]

What's it say?

22:03:40 [AaronSw]

Ahh, cool.

22:04:06 [sbp]

Please set the terms for its... er... "release", could ya?

22:04:19 [AaronSw]

semanticWeb-long's?

22:04:28 [AaronSw]

Well, it's in my .sig, so you can point people to it if you want

22:04:44 [sbp]

ah, that's the first question answered

22:05:23 [sbp]

the second is simply, do you mind too much if I release swintro? I'm hoping to spread it to as many people as possible, bugging the feck out of those who are subscribed to all of the lists (i.e. me)

22:05:58 [AaronSw]

Nope, I don't mind at all.

22:06:38 [sbp]

and the third question: is it O.K. to be released? I haven't made any startling errors or missed something out, I hope

22:07:09 [sbp]

Lists... I had in mind: www-rdf-interest [W3C], semantic-web [yahoo], xml-dev, humanmarkup, and possibly swag-dev

22:07:23 [AaronSw]

Well, I'm sorta in the middle of this DC thing right now... can you give me a few minutes?

22:07:27 [sbp]

I'm going for the mega huge spammer of the week award. Spam, spam, spam, spam, spam

22:07:31 [sbp]

sure, of course

22:07:31 [AaronSw]

heh

22:08:05 [AaronSw]

OK, meanwhile, go make sure my newly-added RDF/XML examples are all correct

22:08:11 [sbp]

O.K.

22:08:21 [AaronSw]

Thanks.

22:08:34 [AaronSw]

Comments:

22:08:45 [AaronSw]

s/semanticWeb-long/Semantic Web In Depth/ or some such

22:09:01 [sbp]

Heh: <dc:title>World Wide Web Consortium (W3C)</dc:creator>

22:09:01 [AaronSw]

Perhaps I should rename it Semantic Web in Breadth -- it's more appropriate

22:09:05 [AaronSw]

oops

22:09:10 [sbp]

:-)

22:09:11 [AaronSw]

that's what i meant about checking. ;-)

22:09:12 [AaronSw]

thanks

22:09:24 [sbp]

in Breadth: good idea. I'll title it as that

22:10:21 [sbp]

tut tut: rdf:Description about

22:10:26 [sbp]

s/about/rdf:about

22:11:00 [AaronSw]

Hey, I copied-and-pasted the examples from the old doc!

22:11:09 [AaronSw]

vixed

22:11:11 [AaronSw]

err fixed

22:11:25 [sbp]

I merely said "tut, tut" :-)

22:11:44 [AaronSw]

"RDF is a generic format, which already has many parsers"

22:11:49 [sbp]

* sbp actually just pasted the examples one by one into the RDF validator

22:11:52 [AaronSw]

I think you mean RDF/XML above

22:11:59 [AaronSw]

RDF validator: even better!

22:12:14 [AaronSw]

but also make sure that they're equivalent to the ntriples version

22:13:06 [AaronSw]

"""

22:13:07 [AaronSw]

Here are the triples that this RDF produces:-

22:13:09 [AaronSw]

"""

22:13:16 [AaronSw]

You use this, where you mean <> .

22:13:25 [AaronSw]

There's no "this" in RDF/XML, so it couldn

22:13:30 [AaronSw]

't produce those triples.

22:13:56 [sbp]

what about 'rdf:about=""'? Well, I guess that's <>

22:13:57 [AaronSw]

And if you're going to make it look like N-Triples, might as well make it N-Triples -- get rid of that line break in the middle of the second triple.

22:14:04 [AaronSw]

yep

22:14:06 [sbp]

* sbp misreads what you wrote...

22:14:15 [sbp]

line break: oops

22:14:32 [AaronSw]

You might want to mention that the format is N-triples/n3 or whatever

22:17:46 [AaronSw]

ugh, don't use the term screen scraping!

22:17:57 [sbp]

Why not? I love that term!

22:18:08 [AaronSw]

It's not appropriate, cf. http://logicerror.com/screenScraping

22:18:30 [AaronSw]

It reminds me of surgeons ripping out people

22:18:32 [AaronSw]

's guts.

22:18:37 [AaronSw]

Perhaps that's appropriate... ;-)

22:18:46 [sbp]

lol

22:19:26 [sbp]

actually, it isn't NTriples because I start using prefixes later on in the document... don't want to confuse people too much, but it's a fine balance!

22:19:37 [AaronSw]

OK.

22:20:24 [sbp]

"Here I'm using NTriples (plus <> which isn't officially NTriples), and now I'm using a subset of N3... well, NTriples are a subset of N3, but I'm using a slightly larger subset of N3, a superset of NTriples if you like" might not go down too well :-)

22:21:00 [AaronSw]

OK, you're right.

22:21:18 [AaronSw]

Ahh, you mention nt later on -- that's fine.

22:21:26 [sbp]

* sbp hides... I was just tryin'ta make yer laugh

22:21:45 [sbp]

:-)

22:21:52 [AaronSw]

I was worried that was an actual quote!

22:21:58 [sbp]

He he he

22:22:09 [sbp]

I like my Simpsons universal quantification bit the best

22:22:19 [AaronSw]

That'll scare off the remaining 1% of your readers. ;-)

22:22:26 [AaronSw]

err, the nt/n3 thing

22:22:32 [sbp]

[[[

22:22:32 [sbp]

Note that Notation3 introduces a "context" construct, enabling one to group statements together and quantify over them using a specially designed logic vocabulary. Using this vocabulary, for example, one can express "or", using NANDs:-

22:22:32 [sbp]

{ { :Joe :loves :TheSimpsons } a log:Falsehood .

22:22:32 [sbp]

{ :Joe :is :Nuts } a log:Falsehood .

22:22:32 [sbp]

} a log:Falsehood .

22:22:34 [sbp]

Which can be read as "it is not true that Joe does not love The Simpsons and is not nuts". I resisted the temptation to make Joe a universally quantified variable.

22:22:37 [sbp]

]]]

22:22:56 [AaronSw]

Poor Joe.

22:23:22 [AaronSw]

He stood in the forest between two paths and took the one less funnt.

22:23:38 [AaronSw]

Hmm, they're both pretty funny.

22:23:47 [sbp]

Heh

22:24:08 [sbp]

* sbp doesn't often picture OR gates as paths in a forest

22:24:17 [AaronSw]

No?

22:24:20 [sbp]

oh no, an ogre!

22:24:25 [sbp]

no, not often

22:25:17 [sbp]

People are so busy these days. Work, work, work

22:25:26 [AaronSw]

No forests.

22:25:34 [AaronSw]

"use those properties in our code"? where'd this code come from?

22:26:09 [AaronSw]

Hmm, you should have named :Fido "Bruno" or something scarrier to throw people off.

22:26:10 [sbp]

you just... well... write it?

22:26:14 [sbp]

heh

22:26:20 [sbp]

Aw, but Fido! Fido!

22:26:22 [AaronSw]

what kind of code, tho?

22:26:27 [sbp]

RDF

22:26:35 [AaronSw]

Since when did RDF become code?

22:26:36 [sbp]

oh, in our RDF... gotcha

22:26:57 [AaronSw]

I mean, I know it's a bit hard to understand, but still...

22:27:19 [sbp]

well, it's one of those cases where I know what I'm babbling on about, but not many other people will

22:28:00 [sbp]

i.e. will know what I'm babbling on about, when there is something that I am babbling on about and that people don't get

22:28:24 [AaronSw]

Did we ever decide if :x daml:inverseOf :x made sense?

22:28:28 [sbp]

so many things to babble about! and nobody likes a babbler... sit up, keep happy, don't babble

22:28:40 [sbp]

yes, it makes sense

22:28:45 [sbp]

It's a reversible property

22:28:51 [AaronSw]

ok, good

22:28:51 [sbp]

:ReversibleProperty

22:28:58 [sbp]

means the same backwards as forwards

22:29:05 [AaronSw]

@prefix : ?x

22:29:19 [sbp]

daml:equivalentTo a :ReversibleProperty .

22:29:25 [sbp]

@prefix : ?x?

22:29:29 [AaronSw]

yes

22:29:35 [AaronSw]

What is : bound to?

22:29:44 [sbp]

It's bound to a URI

22:29:53 [AaronSw]

But what URI?

22:30:02 [sbp]

usually, <#>

22:30:10 [sbp]

oh, you mean in swintro?

22:30:12 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw gives up

22:30:33 [sbp]

* sbp wonders what you're talking about

22:30:37 [AaronSw]

I meant for :ReversibleProperty

22:30:42 [AaronSw]

What namespace is it in?

22:30:45 [sbp]

er, nothing yet

22:30:55 [sbp]

It's just floating around wanting to be made

22:31:14 [sbp]

it probably belongs in DAML

22:31:19 [AaronSw]

Hmm, I thought @prefix : ?x ? whas pretty clever.

22:31:39 [sbp]

but ?x isn't a resource, it's a special bit of syntax

22:31:49 [sbp]

TimBL should have made that clearer, IMO

22:32:03 [AaronSw]

So? I was making a query with it.

22:32:09 [sbp]

er... I meant, that the end bit of the @prefix declaration isn't a resource...

22:32:16 [sbp]

* sbp isn't being clear now!

22:32:30 [AaronSw]

I know! That's why I thought it was clever.

22:33:36 [AaronSw]

"""Note that the above example does not serialize "properly" into XML RDF, because XML RDF does not have the context construct as denoted by the curly brackets in the example above.""" However a similar effect can be achieved using reification and containers.

22:33:53 [sbp]

* sbp adds it...

22:34:04 [sbp]

* sbp should add acknowledgements as well...

22:34:10 [AaronSw]

:-)

22:34:39 [AaronSw]

Hmm, I don't know... someone might steal your URIs. Better patent them

22:34:57 [AaronSw]

You know, I heard one guy who tried to trademark a series of URIs!

22:35:07 [sbp]

really? Yuck

22:35:19 [sbp]

Did he manage to do it?

22:35:26 [AaronSw]

Not sure... don't think so.

22:35:34 [AaronSw]

He didn't really need to, of course.

22:35:43 [AaronSw]

I tried to explain to him about DNS, but he didn't get it.

22:35:48 [sbp]

He he he

22:35:55 [AaronSw]

He wanted to trademark www.foo-*.com

22:36:02 [sbp]

Imagine, having to trademark every URI just to use them!

22:36:02 [AaronSw]

And I told him to just use *.foo.com

22:36:08 [AaronSw]

Heh!

22:36:40 [AaronSw]

"won't people be trying to process their shopping lists on an inference engine, and suddenly come up with a plan for world peace, or some strange and exciting new symphony?" Wouldn't that be cool?

22:36:47 [AaronSw]

:Avocado a :Answer .

22:36:53 [AaronSw]

:Bananna a :Answer .

22:37:00 [AaronSw]

:WorldPeace a :Answer .

22:37:36 [sbp]

lol

22:37:55 [AaronSw]

Heh: """almost all beginners to RDF go through a sort of "identity crisis""""

22:38:03 [sbp]

:-)

22:38:30 [AaronSw]

Is mid:5.0.2.1.2.20010514083735.033d4d90@mail.gorge.net perhaps archived?

22:38:48 [sbp]

er... yes. I'm just lazy :-)

22:38:53 [sbp]

* sbp searches for the URI...

22:39:46 [AaronSw]

hey, you took out the "i don't believe you" header -- it was just like those segments on "Wait, wait!"

22:40:22 [AaronSw]

Shoot, I just missed "Wait, wait!"

22:41:22 [sbp]

pardon?

22:41:41 [AaronSw]

You had some better title to the section on trust/proof before

22:41:47 [AaronSw]

<acronym> alert! PGP

22:42:09 [sbp]

Aaaaargh! I'm getting so many comments. Hang on a second...

22:42:18 [AaronSw]

They're all logged.

22:42:40 [AaronSw]

who exactly is MJS?

22:43:30 [sbp]

MJS, dunno. Well, it's Mary

22:43:39 [sbp]

JS was just random

22:43:49 [AaronSw]

Hmm, OK.

22:43:57 [AaronSw]

I'm hungry

22:44:01 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw goes off to find food

22:46:32 [AaronSw]

hmm: merger example

22:46:44 [AaronSw]

i was at hospital and they needed to reenter all my records

22:46:55 [AaronSw]

why? they merged with other comapny who replaced all their databases with new ones

22:47:04 [AaronSw]

i whispered to my mom, they shoulda used RDF ;-)

22:47:15 [sbp]

:-)

22:48:41 [AaronSw]

Re: extended structure of a SEM, note that this extended structure demonstrates deficiencies in RDF

22:48:51 [AaronSw]

such problems are likely to be fixed in RDF 2.0 or some such

22:49:50 [AaronSw]

"gaguing from the CWM source code" gauging?

22:50:14 [AaronSw]

And :seq is just stupid, IMO.

22:50:51 [sbp]

:seq - you should talk to Seth about that one... his diagrams seem quite convincing

22:50:59 [sbp]

It's like () syntax, but in the SEM

22:51:13 [AaronSw]

Yes, but that's why we have () ;-)

22:51:19 [AaronSw]

you don't need it in the SEM.

22:51:34 [AaronSw]

TimBL had to reorganize the internal structure of his lists, but still

22:55:28 [AaronSw]

"RDF database driven hypermedia blogspace" - that's a mouthful!

22:55:47 [sbp]

:-)

22:56:00 [AaronSw]

OK, I'm done.

22:56:11 [AaronSw]

That, was a good piece.

22:56:34 [sbp]

Phew... I'm just going over some comments from danja and DanBri now. So many comments!

22:56:40 [AaronSw]

heh

22:56:54 [AaronSw]

y'should have invited them in here to chat

22:58:47 [sbp]

danja had to go to bed, and DanBri's chatting with Gerald in #rdfig

23:03:13 [AaronSw]

Yes, I see.

23:06:43 [sbp]

* sbp thinks that he's pretty much addressed the comments... record time, too!

23:11:45 [sbp]

Ta da: http://infomesh.net/2001/swintro/

23:13:28 [sbp]

What about the title? "Semantic Web: An Introduction"... I think that's good enough

23:16:14 [sbp]

sbp has quit

23:21:21 [AaronSw]

Looks good to me.

23:26:02 [AaronSw]

Hmm, perhaps an introduction is a bit too broad