IRC log of swhack on 2001-09-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:37:37 [logster]
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00:37:37 [forward.openprojects.net]
topic is: Join #swhack. Sean chats there.
00:37:37 [forward.openprojects.net]
Users on #swhack: logster Morbus tav AaronSw deltab
00:37:45 [AaronSw]
replay for loggy:
00:37:49 [AaronSw]
<AaronSw> aww, shoot
00:37:49 [AaronSw]
<Morbus> heh. is that off your machine?
00:37:49 [AaronSw]
<AaronSw> my server
00:37:49 [AaronSw]
<AaronSw> which is in NY :-(
00:37:50 [AaronSw]
<Morbus> oh poo.
00:37:50 [AaronSw]
<AaronSw> they seem to be having some internet problems there
00:37:52 [AaronSw]
<Morbus> i heard a bunch of t3's were down in that area.
00:37:54 [AaronSw]
<AaronSw> i wouldn't be surprised
00:37:56 [AaronSw]
<AaronSw> I doubt the isp contracts cover acts of terrorism
00:37:58 [AaronSw]
<Morbus> i doubt it. or else they took down the server to install carnivore
00:38:00 [AaronSw]
<AaronSw> heh!
00:38:02 [AaronSw]
<Morbus> :)
00:38:04 [AaronSw]
<AaronSw> Took me like an hour to get into AG, this morning... but once i did, it rocked!
00:38:06 [AaronSw]
<Morbus> yeah !!! <g>
00:38:08 [AaronSw]
<AaronSw> now i've been disconnected. :-(
00:38:10 [AaronSw]
<Morbus> i was like that too. i tried the first version, tried hard, and gave up and said it swucked
00:38:12 [AaronSw]
<Morbus> second version came out, i perservered and now i love the damn thing
00:38:14 [AaronSw]
<Morbus> whatever you do, don't drag and drop over it in os x ;)
00:38:16 [AaronSw]
<AaronSw> Oh?
00:38:18 [AaronSw]
<Morbus> immediate crash
00:38:20 [AaronSw]
<Morbus> so don't place it anywhere near the dock. it must have taken me about three dozen crashes 'fore i got smart.
00:38:22 [AaronSw]
<AaronSw> heh
00:38:24 [AaronSw]
<AaronSw> gotta run... dinner
00:38:26 [AaronSw]
<dc_rdfig> Notice: A: http://www.digitalcity.jst.go.jp/meeting/ from jhendler
00:38:28 [AaronSw]
<dc_rdfig> Notice: titled item A
00:38:30 [AaronSw]
<dc_rdfig> Notice: commented item A
00:38:32 [AaronSw]
<AaronSw> back
00:38:34 [AaronSw]
<Morbus> what'd ya have?
00:38:36 [AaronSw]
<AaronSw> pizza
00:38:38 [AaronSw]
<AaronSw> Hmm, MacSatellite should have a "keep trying to conenct" feature...
00:38:40 [AaronSw]
<AaronSw> Is there a newer version out?
00:38:42 [AaronSw]
<AaronSw> yay, server's back
00:50:59 [Morbus]
welp, there is a newer version with that feautre, i think. according to the version tracker.
00:51:06 [Morbus]
i think it just came out recently. 1.2
00:51:27 [Morbus]
hey, i heard somewhere that any shell/bsd script you have in os x, you can add a .command to it and have it runnable via a doubleclick
00:51:33 [Morbus]
i'm gonna try it on ampheta a little later tonight
00:52:32 [AaronSw]
cool
00:52:41 [Morbus]
if the vt isn't offering the macsatellite 1.2 (it wasn't this morning), lemme know and i'll email it to yo
00:52:50 [AaronSw]
I think I have 1.2... i remember seeing something about this feature in release notes
00:55:11 [Morbus]
yeah. you probably do then. i think it does timeout eventually. i'm impatient though
00:55:54 [AaronSw]
it timesout really quickly, tho...
01:01:25 [Morbus]
whoo. now i get to code perl
01:05:33 [AaronSw]
tav told me that perl was below me even talking about, so i won't. ;-)
01:05:48 [Morbus]
man oh man. i don't even know why i come here <g>
01:09:45 [AaronSw]
I don't think it's a very good tactic, but that's what he said they taught him in pyAdvocacy
01:10:10 [Morbus]
bwahahah. i'm all for a little bit of advocacy, but i'd rather judge the result.
01:12:22 [AaronSw]
hmz, can you mail me macsatellite 1.2?
01:12:27 [Morbus]
yuppers
01:12:30 [Morbus]
whataddy?
01:12:49 [AaronSw]
me@aaronsw.com
01:19:10 [Morbus]
on its way
01:19:20 [AaronSw]
thanks
01:20:04 [AaronSw]
are photos written width x height
01:20:38 [Morbus]
i dunno. i always screw that too. think screen res.
01:20:39 [AaronSw]
or the other way around?
01:20:47 [Morbus]
yeah, wxh. 640x480
01:21:16 [AaronSw]
ok, thanks
01:26:09 [AaronSw]
Hmmz, stuffit says your file is bad
01:29:00 [AaronSw]
Great, and now it's gone and deleted it...
01:29:34 [Morbus]
oh joy.
01:29:50 [Morbus]
lemme throw it publically here and you can grab it off apache
01:29:55 [AaronSw]
ok, thanks
01:30:39 [Morbus]
try 63.173.138.120
01:31:37 [AaronSw]
cool
01:32:27 [Morbus]
yeah, that's me.
01:32:31 [Morbus]
now stop pokng around <g>
01:32:39 [AaronSw]
you and you're nosy apache logs!
01:33:02 [Morbus]
heheh, tail -f. i track j0000! <g>
01:35:02 [AaronSw]
hmz, download seems to have stalled
01:35:33 [AaronSw]
wham, and Morbus falls off the face of the Earth... right in the middle of my download :-(
01:36:03 [Morbus]
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01:49:59 [AaronSw]
Hi sbp
01:49:59 [sbp]
Hi Aaron
01:49:59 [AaronSw]
aww, shoot
01:49:59 [AaronSw]
loggy's dead again
01:49:59 [sbp]
aw...
01:49:59 [AaronSw]
the net connection in ny keeps going up and down tonight
01:49:59 [AaronSw]
logster, hello?
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01:50:05 [logster]
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topic is: Join #swhack. Sean chats there.
01:50:05 [sagan.openprojects.net]
Users on #swhack: logster sbp tav deltab AaronSw
01:50:56 [AaronSw]
replay for logster:
01:50:58 [AaronSw]
<sbp> did you fix n3tordf?
01:50:59 [AaronSw]
<sbp> neat, mentions the n3tordf form, and the Wiki (I presume RDFWiki): http://www.cs.umd.edu/~hendler/CMSC498x/asst1.html
01:50:59 [AaronSw]
<sbp> :-)
01:50:59 [AaronSw]
<AaronSw> it wasn't broken!
01:50:59 [AaronSw]
<AaronSw> no, not rdfwiki
01:51:00 [AaronSw]
<sbp> really?
01:51:02 [AaronSw]
<AaronSw> jhendler set up a class wiki
01:51:04 [AaronSw]
<sbp> Yeah, RDFWiki?
01:51:06 [AaronSw]
<AaronSw> i told him about rdfwiki but couldn't find a pointer
01:51:08 [AaronSw]
<AaronSw> he said he didn't want to teach the class in triples
01:51:10 [AaronSw]
<sbp> Heh
01:54:27 [AaronSw]
grr! why is imagemagick broken
01:54:51 [sbp]
Shame that I missed JimH's class
01:54:51 [sbp]
I wonder if they'll do RDF/SW on my course? Man, that'll be funny
01:54:59 [AaronSw]
Heh!
01:55:09 [AaronSw]
There's prolog in my math textbook -- that was funny.
01:55:20 [sbp]
He he he
01:56:37 [sbp]
Hmm... if we could get a class going, maybe we could entice some people to come and talk here
01:57:03 [AaronSw]
Like who?
02:10:09 [AaronSw]
We've already got all the good lecturers, here
02:10:47 [sbp]
The usual W3C people
02:10:58 [sbp]
Maybe I could get Eric to give a keynote :-)
02:11:08 [AaronSw]
Who would attend this class?
02:11:16 [sbp]
Well, anyone doing AI
02:11:22 [sbp]
Like, for example, me
02:11:48 [sbp]
except I probably wouldn't be able to get there. Oh, the irony! I'd crawl
02:12:46 [sbp]
* sbp notes that people are going to be running out of titles for SW papers soon
02:12:51 [AaronSw]
Heh heh.
02:12:57 [sbp]
Ooh, how about, "SW: WTF?"
02:14:38 [AaronSw]
"SW4U"
02:14:47 [AaronSw]
"SW+U"
02:14:58 [sbp]
Doesn't have as many swears...
02:15:45 [sbp]
How about a guide to producing SW systems on WinMe and Unix?
02:15:52 [sbp]
"Me, U, and the SW"
02:16:59 [AaronSw]
"DAML+OIL: Not yet mined by Bush"
02:17:39 [sbp]
"SWuckit"
02:18:07 [AaronSw]
"How to SWear"
02:18:41 [AaronSw]
I'm thinking SWAG should release a promotional video...
02:18:44 [sbp]
"RDF? SWanky"
02:18:54 [AaronSw]
"The Spy who SWAGged Me"?
02:19:05 [sbp]
lol
02:21:06 [sbp]
"I'm dirty right to the RDF Core, baby"
02:22:40 [AaronSw]
lol
02:24:25 [AaronSw]
You know, when they rename RDF IG the SWIG, the headlines will be:
02:24:35 [AaronSw]
"W3C Puts SWIG to Community's SWAG"
02:25:01 [sbp]
* sbp wondered when that one would be spouted...
02:25:38 [sbp]
We have RDF, SWIG, SWAG, SWIPT, SWEO, DAML...
02:25:48 [deltab]
SWAD
02:25:53 [AaronSw]
Brownie points if you can put them all in a sentence
02:26:36 [sbp]
There are many acronyms that pertain to Semantic Web related things, including RDF, SWIG, SWAG, SWIPT, SWEO, DAML, and SAWD
02:26:40 [sbp]
There are many acronyms that pertain to Semantic Web related things, including RDF, SWIG, SWAG, SWIPT, SWEO, DAML, and SWAD
02:26:56 [sbp]
* sbp collects his brownie points
02:27:14 [AaronSw]
Oh, come on -- a funny sentence!
02:27:48 [sbp]
well, that's assez funny
02:28:24 [AaronSw]
assez?
02:28:37 [sbp]
Don't worry about it...
02:28:38 [AaronSw]
Like, that's as unfunny as an arse?
02:29:03 [sbp]
I'll have you know, many of the arses that I've seen are very... oops, I've said too much
02:43:31 [AaronSw]
Ego gratification:
02:43:35 [AaronSw]
<jhendler> gee, a lot of stuff in your papers by this Berners-Lee guy, he must be a pretty smart cookie :->
02:43:40 [AaronSw]
<jhendler> btw, this semanticweb-long piece is the best description of the "layer cake" I've seen yet - has Tim seen it?
02:43:49 [AaronSw]
<jhendler> this SW long paper is really good! I think I'll only steal a little so you can publish it somewhere better later - needs a little editing, and to remove a few of the "I"s to make it more general, but heck of a nice writing job - needs to be seen
02:44:11 [AaronSw]
And funny:
02:44:28 [AaronSw]
<jhendler> favorite example [from the Sci-Am piece]: Get me the phone number of everyone who ordered more than 1,000 widgets and was arrested in the last 6 months."
02:44:34 [AaronSw]
And back to ego:
02:45:17 [AaronSw]
<jhendler> actually, I've written quite a lot - and w/a lot of people - the ability to make complex ideas simple is very hard -- you've definitely got the knack. you can quote me on that!
03:02:38 [Morbus]
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03:02:44 [AaronSw]
welcome back!
03:02:54 [Morbus]
sigh. i'm just not having a good day
03:03:00 [Morbus]
heh. thanks ;)
03:03:19 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw picks up his download again
03:03:34 [Morbus]
diff ip. you should be able to use the name too
03:03:45 [AaronSw]
yeah, i already started
03:03:50 [AaronSw]
thank goodness for 206!
03:04:18 [Morbus]
k. i think, actually, that you caused my crash earlier <g>... i've noticed some crazy stuff when doing more uploading then downloading on usb modems.
03:04:20 [Morbus]
206?
03:04:30 [AaronSw]
Sure, blame it on me.
03:04:31 [AaronSw]
206 Partial Content
03:04:38 [AaronSw]
lets me pick up my download where i left off
03:04:44 [Morbus]
ah
03:05:00 [AaronSw]
Go Apache!
03:05:07 [Morbus]
:)
03:06:10 [AaronSw]
Ooh, new icon!
03:06:36 [Morbus]
yah :)
03:06:51 [AaronSw]
thanks, this is much nicer
03:07:06 [Morbus]
np. for some reason, its not available on versiontracker any more
03:07:07 [Morbus]
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03:07:44 [Morbus]
bwahaha. man, i suck so hardcore
03:07:56 [Morbus]
i wanna put on a corky hat
03:08:04 [AaronSw]
not avail: Yeah, the guy's site went down
03:08:17 [Morbus]
well, hell, i should mirror it on disobey then
03:09:16 [AaronSw]
yeah!
03:19:08 [sbp]
scary: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/esoteric/mdpn/index.html
03:19:57 [AaronSw]
oh, geez
03:20:50 [sbp]
Befunge is weird... it's so easy to learn, but it looks *really* scary
03:20:57 [AaronSw]
yeah, no kidding
03:21:03 [sbp]
And it's quite fun to program; there are some really weird challenges
03:21:29 [Morbus]
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03:21:48 [AaronSw]
there goes morbus, again
03:30:32 [sbp]
* sbp feels like creating a language
03:30:48 [sbp]
* sbp gives in immediately, too difficult
03:34:10 [sbp]
Wow! This is how I was going to comment my "tag:" befunge program: http://kotisivu.mtv3.fi/oma/quux/qsort.html
03:34:43 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw fights with Oracle and Tcl...
03:34:58 [sbp]
heh, some struggle
03:35:11 [AaronSw]
it's been taking me a long time, but I think I've got it now...
03:35:27 [AaronSw]
That commenting is really cool.
03:35:58 [sbp]
Good, isn't it? But now I'll never be able to prove that I thought of the same thing independantly
03:36:07 [sbp]
Still, who cares? I'm going to do it anyway
03:36:14 [AaronSw]
Heh
03:36:17 [sbp]
If I can remember how my code works, which is less than likely
03:36:19 [sbp]
"//:ptth"v > v >$$$v
03:36:20 [sbp]
>,# :# _$>0~0\>:25*-#v_^>\8 p1+:v
03:36:20 [sbp]
@ > v^ <
03:36:20 [sbp]
^_v#--1*5 9:g8:+1$< > ^ >3":"v
03:36:20 [sbp]
> v > :,^ <
03:36:20 [sbp]
$v < < <
03:36:22 [sbp]
$>$"/"> , 1 + :8g:59*-#v_^
03:36:24 [sbp]
^_^#-*2*82: <_^# -+2*87:<
03:36:44 [sbp]
I abbreviated it quite a lot... here's an earlier version:-
03:36:55 [sbp]
v >:25*-#v_>$$$v
03:36:55 [sbp]
> v0
03:36:55 [sbp]
>"//:ptth">,# :# _$>0~0\:25*-#v_@> \9p1+:v
03:36:55 [sbp]
@ > v^ <
03:36:55 [sbp]
^_v#--1*5 9:g9:+1$<> ^> >:9g:78*2+-#v_v
03:36:56 [sbp]
> v > :,^ <^ +1$<
03:36:58 [sbp]
$v < < < ^ <
03:37:00 [sbp]
$>$"/"> , 1 + :9g:59*-#v_^
03:37:02 [sbp]
^_^#-*2*82: <_^# -+2*87:<
03:38:00 [sbp]
I noticed how I was reusing the same :25*-#v bit of code, and thought I'd just put a pointer in before it
03:38:45 [AaronSw]
hmm
03:38:49 [AaronSw]
shoot, i keep screwing up!
03:39:26 [sbp]
Gotta run
03:39:37 [AaronSw]
c'ya
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topic is: Join #swhack. Sean chats there.
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Users on #swhack: logster tav AaronSw deltab
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18:14:52 [AaronSw]
Heh: http://wmf.editthispage.com/discuss/msgReader$5694
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Users on #swhack: logster AaronSw deltab tav
20:08:59 [Morbus]
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20:14:22 [AaronSw]
ugh, where did graphic converter save this file?
20:14:40 [AaronSw]
And why does it think i've been using it for 103 days?
20:14:41 [AaronSw]
i just downloaded it!
20:14:42 [Morbus]
heh. bad graphic converter!
20:14:52 [Morbus]
cos you probably didn't delete your prefs.
20:15:27 [AaronSw]
i love how the "please pay up" delay increases exponentially :-(
20:16:06 [Morbus]
i got a serial around here somewhere.
20:16:39 [AaronSw]
it's good to know that someone pays for there software
20:17:09 [Morbus]
i've been using it for years. wonderful little program.
20:17:28 [AaronSw]
yeah, me too
20:22:21 [Morbus]
somedays i do wish i hadn't made ampheta open source so that i could have teh chance to charge for it.
20:22:32 [Morbus]
i had a big discussion about this on the free software business list a bit ago.
20:22:41 [Morbus]
but then, after breaking it all done, again, i'm happy with the open source choice.
20:23:52 [AaronSw]
"breaking it all done"?
20:24:00 [Morbus]
s/done/down/
20:24:23 [AaronSw]
oh
20:24:31 [Morbus]
tyring to find the archive now
20:25:35 [AaronSw]
oh, your foo.command trick worked
20:25:44 [AaronSw]
I just tested it out a little while ago -- very neat
20:25:46 [Morbus]
it did? kickass. what'd you try it on.
20:26:00 [Morbus]
that's really cool. i can now make an easy installer for os x with that then.
20:26:04 [Morbus]
or you could <g>.
20:26:07 [AaronSw]
i just wrote a short shell script: "echo foo"
20:26:31 [AaronSw]
Opens up a new terminal window, tho
20:26:53 [Morbus]
well, that's ok. if people are gonna run it as a shell on os x anyways, i'd want that since its the only visual que.
20:27:01 [Morbus]
i have a classic os gui just like win32 in the cvs.
20:27:11 [Morbus]
little buggy, but i should be working the final stuff out.
20:27:21 [AaronSw]
What's the GUI look like?
20:27:28 [Morbus]
doesn't scale well though - i'm really pushing the limits of the macperl gui stuff. so i've added a no_gui config line
20:27:33 [Morbus]
disobey.com/amphetadesk/screenshots.htm
20:27:49 [Morbus]
it's really just that small little box. just a gui element around the normal STDOUT stuff.
20:27:59 [Morbus]
and all configurable of course - you can replace the image with what you wish.
20:28:24 [AaronSw]
Ahh, neat.
20:28:54 [AaronSw]
I like how you switch between Win32 and MacOS
20:29:12 [Morbus]
here's that thread: http://www.crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?sss:6076:200107:jecdnpdnmnlacjdakbib#b
20:29:25 [Morbus]
hmm? switch? whatcha mean? in the code?
20:29:40 [AaronSw]
err, in the screenshots
20:29:49 [Morbus]
oh. ok :)
20:31:07 [AaronSw]
Wow, you got a response from Michael Tiemann. Neat.
20:31:27 [Morbus]
:)
20:32:29 [AaronSw]
Maybe you can go like Ximian and create open-source nagware. ;-)
20:33:09 [Morbus]
hehehe... i could add banners into the html source code <g>... so few pepopel customize it
20:33:21 [AaronSw]
Exactly, smart people get it for free!
20:35:08 [Morbus]
hehe. there ya go <g>
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22:00:35 [sbp]
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22:00:58 [AaronSw]
hello there
22:01:04 [sbp]
Hi Aaron
22:01:21 [sbp]
[ foaf:name "Sean B. Palmer"; :wrote "0v_^#-3:+1,,\"> \"< -\n >\"<\" >,~:25#$*^\n >\".\",@^ _^#<" ] .
22:01:36 [AaronSw]
Oh, shoot.
22:01:42 [sbp]
I wonder if that's the shortest possible RDF/SW program
22:01:45 [AaronSw]
What does this one do?
22:01:55 [sbp]
* sbp pastes it in in non-N3 form
22:01:55 [sbp]
0v_^#-3:+1,,"> "< -
22:01:56 [sbp]
>"<" >,~:25#$*^
22:01:56 [sbp]
>".",@^ _^#<
22:02:14 [sbp]
this one simply takes in three URIs from input, and outputs an N3 triple
22:02:26 [sbp]
not the most stunning program ever...
22:02:38 [sbp]
but it
22:02:46 [sbp]
's short enough to put in a signature
22:02:57 [AaronSw]
Heh!
22:03:15 [sbp]
took ages to compress it that small
22:03:15 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw wonders if he should learn befunge-93 just to go around scaring people.
22:03:37 [AaronSw]
Imagine cwm in befunge-93!
22:03:54 [sbp]
yeah, you can jump out at people, and instead of saying "boo!", just ask them if they're programmers, and if so, shove a b93 program at them, and run off laughing
22:04:06 [sbp]
CWM in b93: it would probably make more sense
22:04:13 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw files that in his Halloween decorations list
22:04:20 [sbp]
:-)
22:04:55 [AaronSw]
Interesting:
22:05:01 [AaronSw]
"""I won't be working on this much, as my time is currently consumed by my active
22:05:01 [AaronSw]
participation in the "Bay Area Gotterdammerung, Job Search, and Chili-Cookoff""""
22:05:08 [AaronSw]
Poor excuse. ;-)
22:05:17 [sbp]
where from? what context?
22:05:35 [AaronSw]
- http://www.opennsd.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00001I&topic_id=1&topic=OpenNSD
22:05:55 [AaronSw]
Heh:
22:05:59 [AaronSw]
"""1/ put pictures in the right directory
22:06:00 [AaronSw]
2/ add metadata using java -jar rdfpic.jar <directory>/*
22:06:00 [AaronSw]
3/ generate thumbnails (in png) and index file[s] using a single script,
22:06:00 [AaronSw]
genepage
22:06:00 [AaronSw]
And if I'm lazy I just skip 2, but it is bad."""
22:06:08 [AaronSw]
mid:Pine.GSO.4.33.0109150000080.28441-100000@tarantula.inria.fr
22:06:10 [sbp]
Hmm...
22:06:48 [AaronSw]
Guess this came too late for DanC:
22:06:54 [AaronSw]
"""CALL 1-877-322-9438 TO CHECK STATUS OF
22:06:54 [AaronSw]
ALL MAJOR U.S. AIRPORTS, AIRPORT SECURITY POLICIES AND
22:06:54 [AaronSw]
FAA TRAVEL BRIEFINGS"""
22:07:01 [sbp]
* sbp thinks he might have found a way to compress it even more
22:07:26 [sbp]
* sbp was mistaken
22:08:47 [sbp]
it's actually quite a sophisticated little deeley, for what it does, because the b93 input method is (as you would expect) really strange. It doesn't take in a string and put it in a variable
22:08:51 [sbp]
that would be too easy!
22:09:12 [AaronSw]
I had trouble believing it could take input
22:09:23 [sbp]
You come up to the input character, and you have to keep putting the pointer over that character to get each character... aaargh!
22:09:41 [AaronSw]
heheh
22:09:42 [sbp]
Here, I'll try to find an interpreter for you...
22:10:13 [AaronSw]
And you thought Python's whitespace requirements were bad!
22:10:23 [sbp]
yeah...
22:10:52 [sbp]
there doesn't seem to be an interpreter for the Mac: http://www.catseye.mb.ca/esoteric/befunge/93/index.html
22:11:03 [sbp]
I use VisBef
22:11:18 [sbp]
brb
22:11:32 [AaronSw]
one for linux should work too
22:12:19 [AaronSw]
Ahh, here's one in perl...hmz 404
22:12:52 [AaronSw]
And the ANSI C one should work... eh? 500
22:13:10 [sbp]
they all seem to have gone down, or whatever
22:13:55 [sbp]
I might write an interpreter in Python...
22:13:55 [AaronSw]
Aha! It
22:14:01 [AaronSw]
It's b93 terrorism!
22:14:25 [AaronSw]
You couldn't possibly write an interpreter in Python -- your brain would explode.
22:14:39 [sbp]
lol
22:14:40 [AaronSw]
You'll have to study the great Python obfuscation techniques first
22:14:45 [sbp]
No really, it's quite a simple language
22:15:16 [sbp]
It just *looks* really tough. And even when you've programmed some code, after you go back to it, you wonder what on earth you've done
22:15:56 [AaronSw]
heh!
22:16:19 [sbp]
remember the guy who did the color coded thing? He said he didn't have a clue what many of the bits were for
22:16:27 [sbp]
and he wrote the program
22:16:32 [AaronSw]
sheesh
22:17:09 [sbp]
you can kind of make sense of my three-line thing
22:17:13 [sbp]
0v_^#-3:+1,,"> "< -
22:17:13 [sbp]
>"<" >,~:25#$*^
22:17:13 [sbp]
>".",@^ _^#<
22:17:33 [sbp]
the "> " "<" and "." are clearly bits that get output
22:17:42 [sbp]
~ is the keyboard input character
22:17:50 [sbp]
@ ends the program
22:18:09 [sbp]
, pops a value from the stack and returns it as an alphabetical character
22:18:22 [sbp]
_ is an "if" thingy
22:18:34 [sbp]
>v<^ control the direction of the pointer
22:18:55 [sbp]
numeric values just go in the stack... note that you can only put single digit numbers in the stack
22:19:14 [sbp]
if you want to put 10 in, you have to do 25*
22:19:37 [sbp]
i.e., put 2 in the stack, then put 5 in the stack. * multiplies the two top numbers in the stack, and replaces them with the result
22:20:10 [sbp]
whitespace is just skipped
22:20:10 [AaronSw]
ahh
22:20:38 [sbp]
"#" forms a bridge over the next character, so in #,1 the comma is ignored, when going from L to R
22:21:01 [sbp]
: duplicates the top value in the stack
22:21:22 [sbp]
Hmm... and that's about all you need to know for that program
22:21:41 [deltab]
and $ pops
22:21:48 [sbp]
yep
22:21:53 [AaronSw]
deltab, you a b93 coder?
22:22:06 [sbp]
he's the guy who got me into this!
22:22:16 [deltab]
yeah
22:22:23 [deltab]
I am?
22:22:25 [AaronSw]
Oh?
22:22:28 [AaronSw]
How so?
22:22:34 [sbp]
I was searching for info on DB when we were looking for the mysterious "DB homepage", and I came across this
22:22:40 [deltab]
heh
22:23:02 [AaronSw]
url for the DB homepage?
22:23:10 [sbp]
there isn't one
22:23:22 [AaronSw]
oh, i see
22:23:28 [sbp]
I was searching for it, and found b93 instead :-)
22:23:48 [AaronSw]
Ahh, I see: http://www.purists.org/esoteric/
22:23:57 [sbp]
yep
22:23:58 [deltab]
you could say my homepage is hosted by google
22:24:04 [sbp]
lol
22:24:19 [AaronSw]
heh
22:24:31 [AaronSw]
cool, it's a DB-contributed DB.
22:24:35 [deltab]
but I'm not so egocentric as to make a page of links just to things about me :-)
22:24:56 [sbp]
db: what's the best esoteric language in your opinion? Are there any other better languages I could be trying? Any more compact and weird than b93?
22:24:56 [AaronSw]
I see it as every person's responsibility to catalog data about themselves.
22:25:06 [AaronSw]
If everyone does that, then we've got a lot of data catalogged.
22:25:20 [deltab]
certainly weirder ones
22:25:37 [sbp]
but b93 works! I was so shocked when it did
22:25:58 [deltab]
befunge is fun
22:26:11 [deltab]
heh - "putting the fun in befunge"
22:26:17 [sbp]
lol
22:26:45 [deltab]
without the fun it'd be just... bege
22:31:36 [deltab]
there's one language based on colour and shade changes in a bitmap - looks somewhat like that befunge qsort program without the symbols
22:32:00 [sbp]
Heh, you could have a program that draws a picture of itself
22:32:05 [deltab]
http://www.purists.org/esoteric/i11152.html
22:33:36 [sbp]
oh, wow!
22:34:59 [sbp]
Hmm... can't find any compilers for it though
22:37:56 [AaronSw]
Programmed assembly, Sean?
22:39:07 [sbp]
Heh:
22:39:07 [sbp]
[[[
22:39:09 [sbp]
ESOGOTSCHI has an infinite number of ways of representing the number 3, making ESOGOTSCHI very useful for people that like to spend some time writing the number 3 in infinite ways.
22:39:15 [sbp]
]]] - http://www.p-nand-q.com/scripts/gosub.py?page=http://www.p-nand-q.com/esogotschi.htm
22:39:29 [sbp]
Programmed what? I meant interpreters
22:40:48 [sbp]
Ugh: http://www.p-nand-q.com/sorted/hello.txt
22:41:45 [sbp]
[[[
22:41:46 [sbp]
Java2K is not a deterministic programming language, but a probabilistic one. Even for built-in functions, there is only a certain probability the function will do whatever you intend it to do.
22:41:51 [sbp]
]]] - http://www.p-nand-q.com/scripts/gosub.py?page=http://www.p-nand-q.com/java2k.htm
22:41:59 [sbp]
No different to any other programming language :-)
22:42:44 [AaronSw]
Yeah, I liked Java2K
22:43:08 [sbp]
I think it's a bit cruddy. Too much repetition
22:43:24 [AaronSw]
Well, I'm just commenting on the idea
22:43:25 [sbp]
if it looks like a TM...
22:43:31 [AaronSw]
Assembly language, have you programmed it?
22:43:36 [sbp]
Ah, the idea is cool :-)
22:43:41 [sbp]
Assembly language?
22:44:02 [AaronSw]
oh, dear
22:44:36 [AaronSw]
Assembly language is like machine language -- very low-level
22:44:50 [AaronSw]
You just tell the CPU what to do.
22:45:02 [sbp]
I know. I remember back to my old C64 days...
22:45:13 [sbp]
I haven't done anything at that level since then
22:45:36 [AaronSw]
Maybe you could optimize cwm in assembly? ;-)
22:45:41 [sbp]
especially not on Win32
22:52:00 [sbp]
* sbp feels like writing a Befunge interpreter in Python... how hard could it be?
22:52:10 [deltab]
sbp: it's easy
22:52:35 [deltab]
I did one a couple of years ago, but lost it in a disk problem
22:52:39 [sbp]
Aw...
22:52:55 [sbp]
I guess I'll need to create an array for the torus deeley
22:53:32 [deltab]
I'm most proud of how I implemented the proposed stack roll command in one instruction, designed only for positive roll values
22:53:53 [deltab]
out of interest I tried it with zero and negative roll too
22:53:57 [deltab]
and it worked!
22:54:32 [sbp]
oh that's a good point, it has that weirdism where empty stacks always return 0...
22:55:05 [deltab]
also, it supported Nefunge
22:55:39 [sbp]
you must have been bummed when you lost it
22:55:43 [deltab]
yeah
22:55:44 [sbp]
like TimBL losing ENQUIRE
22:56:12 [deltab]
especially as I'd planned to release it before the end of the year
22:56:23 [AaronSw]
Public Service Announcement: Please back up, often.
22:56:33 [AaronSw]
Hmm, I met Daniel Biddle in another life: http://www.freeamp.org/pipermail/mm/2001-March/000023.html
22:56:36 [sbp]
VisBef is really good though
22:56:47 [AaronSw]
Now I know his job! system administrator, espra.net
22:56:50 [AaronSw]
mwahaha
22:56:55 [AaronSw]
:-)
22:57:10 [sbp]
* sbp still doesn't know who db is
22:57:27 [deltab]
AaronSw: uh yes, I created your user account :-)
22:57:38 [sbp]
well, except that he's the system asministrator for espra.net, and likes esoteric programming
22:57:45 [AaronSw]
ohh, good point, deltab ;-)
22:58:10 [sbp]
and that he's nuts enough to hang about on #swhack, and that he knows tav, which is another person that I now very little about
22:58:23 [sbp]
s/now/know
22:58:34 [AaronSw]
He's an espian. If we tell you anything more, we'll have to kill you.
22:58:39 [sbp]
lol
22:58:59 [AaronSw]
Seriously, they're big into weapons and beating people up.
22:59:10 [deltab]
uh?
22:59:11 [sbp]
yeah, so I heard
22:59:35 [sbp]
* sbp enjoys AaronSw's disinformation... no, really
22:59:41 [AaronSw]
And you thought the W3C Confidentiality agreement was harsh!
23:00:01 [AaronSw]
This isn't disinformation... They have a ....
23:00:11 [AaronSw]
Sorry, please ignore the above lines.
23:00:22 [AaronSw]
They were a malfunction by my computer.
23:00:34 [AaronSw]
Now back to your regularly scheduled channel.
23:00:43 [deltab]
don't believe everything you read
23:01:03 [AaronSw]
:-)
23:01:45 [sbp]
sbp has quit
23:01:47 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw finds ESP quite fun, reminds me of my childhood
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SeanP has joined #swhack
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SeanP has quit
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sbp has joined #swhack
23:02:18 [AaronSw]
Pfft, make up your mind Sean.
23:02:27 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw goes to delete what Sean missed from the logs...
23:02:32 [sbp]
Pfffff
23:02:43 [AaronSw]
j/k
23:03:15 [AaronSw]
ESP has the best mission statement I've ever seen.
23:06:23 [sbp]
do they squiggle?
23:06:31 [AaronSw]
Err, who?
23:06:42 [AaronSw]
So, Mr. Sysadmin, why don't the mail archives work, eh?
23:06:54 [sbp]
if you've ever had a goat piss up your leg, you'd know who and why
23:06:57 [deltab]
archives of what?
23:07:02 [sbp]
pardon?
23:07:15 [AaronSw]
huh?
23:07:23 [AaronSw]
archives of espian secret lists
23:07:40 [deltab]
they do work
23:07:45 [deltab]
that's just a camouflage
23:07:49 [sbp]
there was no Monty Python on tonight. I was quite dissapp... disapppoin... dissa... upset
23:10:28 [AaronSw]
So what's the location of the real mail archives?
23:14:15 [sbp]
Woo! http://www.google.com/search?q=URI+RDF+SW
23:14:37 [sbp]
brings up http://infomesh.net/2001/05/sw/, http://swag.semanticweb.org/rdfnsPractises, http://swag.semanticweb.org/whatIsSW
23:16:00 [AaronSw]
cool
23:16:07 [AaronSw]
we've got it covered, eh?
23:16:41 [sbp]
absolutely :-)
23:20:26 [sbp]
23:20:28 [sbp]
{ { :message :signed :K . :t :derivable :message; :subject :x; :predicate :r; :object :y } log:implies { :x :r :y } } a log:Truth; log:forAll :message, :t, :r, :x, :y .
23:21:53 [sbp]
that makes very little sense
23:22:10 [sbp]
from TimBL, found in http://www.diffuse.org/semantic-web.html
23:22:48 [AaronSw]
why do you say that?
23:22:57 [sbp]
he's left out some stuff
23:23:29 [sbp]
actually, no... it's just that the ":message :signed :K" bit would have to be derived from other means
23:24:51 [sbp]
could you do a quick pre-review of this for me: http://infomesh.net/2001/09/urischemes/
23:25:19 [AaronSw]
sure, just let me pop the stack once
23:25:35 [sbp]
fine
23:25:52 [sbp]
* sbp wonders what on Earth AaronSw is talking about...
23:27:08 [AaronSw]
I keep a stack of things I need to do.
23:27:13 [AaronSw]
I was request a chance to do one of them
23:27:39 [AaronSw]
Love the title!
23:28:02 [sbp]
a stack, in what way? Physical?
23:28:05 [sbp]
thanks
23:28:13 [AaronSw]
no, conceptual
23:28:16 [AaronSw]
in my head
23:28:24 [sbp]
ah
23:28:26 [AaronSw]
like [].pop()
23:28:41 [sbp]
I had a feeling it might be modelled on that
23:28:56 [AaronSw]
well, that's based on a long CS tradition of stacks as primitive data structures
23:29:13 [sbp]
yep
23:29:22 [AaronSw]
anyways, You need a mostly harmless reference to complete the joke
23:29:42 [sbp]
in what way?
23:30:01 [AaronSw]
"Mostly Harmless" by Douglas Adams
23:30:07 [sbp]
I know the book
23:30:13 [sbp]
what reference do I need?
23:30:25 [sbp]
Oh, don't worry, I've got it...
23:30:39 [sbp]
But they're mostly harmful, so it's the opposite
23:30:53 [sbp]
* sbp likes the guy on the 30-50ft poles bit
23:31:10 [AaronSw]
yes, i know
23:31:25 [AaronSw]
you need something mostly harmful to complete the balance
23:31:47 [sbp]
well, the new URI schemes are mostly harmful
23:32:07 [AaronSw]
err, something mostly harmless rather
23:32:11 [sbp]
:-)
23:32:28 [AaronSw]
:-)
23:32:40 [sbp]
Name one thing that's mostly harmless, other than the Earth, and related to URI schemes
23:33:05 [AaronSw]
informal URN spaces?
23:34:41 [sbp]
they're completely harmless
23:35:21 [AaronSw]
well, mostly harmless -- they take up disk space
23:35:36 [AaronSw]
mental and physical
23:37:22 [AaronSw]
People aren't familiar with data: URIs!
23:37:43 [AaronSw]
and tell folks to be sure to register their schemes
23:37:43 [sbp]
I am, and you are, and we're people, so you're wrong, WED
23:37:47 [sbp]
and QED
23:37:57 [AaronSw]
pffft
23:37:58 [deltab]
do any browsers support them?
23:38:21 [sbp]
Netscape6 supports data:
23:38:53 [sbp]
[[[
23:38:55 [sbp]
It is often said that new URI schemes in and of themselves are not actually harmful, it is only unregistered proprietary schemes that are harmful. Of course, it is still technically possible for registered URI schemes to violate URI axioms, but new URI schemes and URN namespaces have to go through a process of peer review, and are therefore less likely to do so.
23:38:55 [sbp]
]]]
23:39:22 [sbp]
I should probably add "REGISTER YOUR SCHEMES!" though
23:39:45 [AaronSw]
yeah
23:40:11 [AaronSw]
You need a "call to action"
23:46:43 [sbp]
Hmm... the amount of EO materials for the SW can still only be described as "terrible"
23:47:28 [AaronSw]
Yeah, i'm hoping the primer will make dent
23:47:50 [sbp]
When are you going to release it?/What are you doing with it?
23:48:13 [sbp]
It seems to have been sitting there for ages
23:49:13 [AaronSw]
release what?
23:49:22 [sbp]
the primer
23:49:29 [AaronSw]
i meant the RDF Core primer
23:49:34 [AaronSw]
you mean semanticWeb-long?
23:49:38 [sbp]
Oh... what's that?
23:49:41 [sbp]
Yes, i did
23:50:02 [AaronSw]
Jim Hendler is cleaning it up as his paper for this digital cities thing
23:50:04 [AaronSw]
so that should help
23:50:14 [AaronSw]
then i need to make sure my Mom can understand it
23:50:16 [sbp]
RDF Core primer?
23:50:49 [AaronSw]
It's a deliverable of the WG
23:50:59 [sbp]
ETA?
23:51:27 [AaronSw]
when the WG is done?
23:51:32 [AaronSw]
we hope to have a draft out soon
23:51:39 [AaronSw]
Primer should come out with the specs we do
23:51:43 [sbp]
well, who's working on it, etc.?
23:51:51 [AaronSw]
Check the list
23:51:53 [AaronSw]
we just started
23:52:04 [AaronSw]
ericm is heading things, i'm working on it as is a bunch of other people
23:52:12 [sbp]
RDF Primer, I'm guessing. How much orientation towards the SW aspect of things?
23:52:14 [AaronSw]
* AaronSw has to go soon... saturday approaches
23:52:18 [sbp]
Yep
23:52:21 [AaronSw]
I hope to have it cover most SW things.
23:52:31 [AaronSw]
I've sent a message to the list saying as much.
23:52:35 [sbp]
cool
23:52:37 [AaronSw]
But not sure it'll happen.
23:52:53 [sbp]
Ooooh, could you make that Python script send RDF Core junk to me?
23:53:41 [AaronSw]
Heh, I was wondering when you'd ask that.
23:53:45 [sbp]
:-)
23:54:02 [AaronSw]
I suppose I could, but it'd be more difficult since I'd have to tell it not to send it to me...
23:54:06 [AaronSw]
i'll
23:54:10 [AaronSw]
i'll do it on sunday
23:54:14 [sbp]
cheers
23:55:25 [AaronSw]
ok, gotta go
23:55:30 [AaronSw]
ta
23:55:33 [sbp]
O.K., have a nice Staurday
23:55:38 [sbp]
er... Saturday
23:55:40 [sbp]
c'ya!
23:55:43 [AaronSw]
bye
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