IRC log of openacs on 2002-07-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:01:01 [davb]
apparently not listening.
00:06:51 [Psychephylax]
heh
00:06:58 [Psychephylax]
Too much partying for rbm
00:07:03 [Psychephylax]
and paje is still not around
00:29:09 [denshi]
rbm should share the love. I certainly could have used some partying this weekend.
00:37:35 [Psychephylax]
me too
03:23:35 [talli]
anyone home?
05:22:01 [denshi]
denshi has quit (bear.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)
10:00:39 [davb]
davb has quit ("Client Exiting")
10:59:39 [hazAway]
hazAway is now known as hazmat
11:01:16 [hazmat]
hazmat has left #openacs
11:32:48 [nsadmin]
nsadmin has quit (Remote closed the connection)
11:33:27 [jim]
jim has quit (Remote closed the connection)
11:37:31 [davb]
davb (~chatzilla@rrcs-nys-24-97-22-204.biz.rr.com) has joined #openacs
11:42:02 [davb]
hi
11:44:21 [Psychephylax]
hey
11:45:10 [Psychephylax]
read this: http://www.geekissues.org/quotes/?top
11:55:06 [talli]
hey guys
11:59:09 [davb]
Psychephylax: that is wacky
11:59:21 [davb]
at least we know some people have even less to do than us.
11:59:59 [Psychephylax]
hehe
11:59:59 [Psychephylax]
no sign of paje or rbm
12:13:23 [Psychephylax]
bah
12:13:27 [Psychephylax]
Jury duty today
12:23:28 [Psychephylax]
* Psychephylax kicks dave
12:27:46 [davb]
what??
12:28:02 [davb]
have fun at jury duty
12:28:20 [Psychephylax]
lol
12:28:36 [Psychephylax]
look at this weird picture http://www.pbase.com/image/2823883/original
12:28:51 [Psychephylax]
Look in the center for what I'm talking about (besides the white dot)
12:29:24 [davb]
ok.
12:29:42 [davb]
weird
12:30:45 [Psychephylax]
heh
12:30:53 [Psychephylax]
someone just posted the reason
12:30:57 [Psychephylax]
I forgot about it too
12:31:18 [Psychephylax]
hrm
12:32:02 [Psychephylax]
499 messages in a month
12:32:08 [Psychephylax]
i'm not that active in forums usually
12:32:24 [davb]
really? what is the reason?
12:32:45 [Psychephylax]
i like the forum?
12:33:35 [davb]
<Psychephylax> someone just posted the reason
12:33:52 [Psychephylax]
oh
12:34:04 [Psychephylax]
the viewfinder is supposed to be closed so the light doesn't leak in
12:34:08 [Psychephylax]
damn SLR cameras :0
12:36:00 [davb]
really?
12:36:19 [davb]
on a real SLR, the mirror flips up, and closes off the viewfinder.
12:36:33 [markd2]
markd2 (~Snak@h166-102-041-088.ip.alltel.net) has joined #openacs
12:36:42 [davb]
hi markd2!
12:36:57 [markd2]
yo davb
12:37:16 [markd2]
the weekend's over. now I can relax :-)
12:37:33 [Psychephylax]
LOL
12:37:37 [Psychephylax]
* Psychephylax thwaps markd2
12:37:45 [markd2]
yay! a thwapping!
12:37:47 [Psychephylax]
©
12:38:03 [denshi]
denshi (~chatzilla@cs6625161-163.austin.rr.com) has joined #openacs
12:38:04 [markd2]
but of course
12:38:04 [paje]
paje (~paje@slxwy.dorms.usu.edu) has joined #openacs
12:38:04 [rbm]
oom
12:38:10 [markd2]
paje!
12:38:11 [davb]
wow!
12:38:15 [davb]
hi everyone
12:38:29 [rbm]
hi all
12:38:30 [denshi]
paje, status
12:38:31 [paje]
Since Mon Jul 1 07:37:32 2002, there have been 0 modifications and 0 questions. I have been awake for 28 seconds this session, and currently reference 3199 factoids. Addressing is in optional mode.
12:38:36 [Psychephylax]
PAJE!!!!!!!!!
12:38:36 [paje]
i am acannibal
12:38:40 [Psychephylax]
* Psychephylax hugs paje
12:38:46 [denshi]
oh good, rbm found paje's brain
12:38:51 [denshi]
gitdown!
12:38:51 [paje]
gitfunky
12:38:51 [Psychephylax]
mark, can you fix the acannibal to a cannibal?
12:38:57 [Psychephylax]
paje, botsmack!
12:38:57 [paje]
* paje slumps into a purple haze
12:39:24 [Psychephylax]
Roberto!!!!
12:39:24 [paje]
roberto is probably splurging on a digicam :)
12:39:33 [Psychephylax]
paje, forget roberto
12:39:33 [paje]
Psychephylax: I forgot roberto
12:39:36 [rbm]
markd2: do you know how to move an infobot to a different server without it losing its factoids? I tried moving paje to the openacs.org box so it wouldn't come down so often, but it forgot everything when I did.
12:39:59 [rbm]
Psychephylax!!
12:39:59 [paje]
it has been said that psychephylax is is the king of newegg and the oracle of digital photography and consumer electronics
12:40:05 [markd2]
heh
12:40:21 [Psychephylax]
It probably needs the permissions transferred with it
12:40:31 [markd2]
rbm: I've not done it. You might try leaving a memoserv memo for "Gerr". He's migrated the wplug infobot I think
12:40:36 [Psychephylax]
rbm, party hardy that Brazil won?
12:42:09 [Psychephylax]
heh...Fleet bank is after me with the student loan I have to pay
12:42:13 [Psychephylax]
bastards
12:44:07 [markd2]
fascists
12:44:51 [rbm]
Psychephylax: I missed all but 10 secunds of the final game :(
12:45:15 [Psychephylax]
LOL
12:45:27 [rbm]
markd2: Did you have to do anything special to get it moved? I thought I'd just have to scp the files then change te config files.
12:45:53 [markd2]
I dunno. I haven't moved one before
12:46:00 [markd2]
I woulda thunk that would have worked
12:46:15 [rbm]
markd2: But apparently I need to do something else. I'm not sure where it associates the current hostname/IP (I presume) with the logs
12:46:16 [markd2]
did you tar everything before scp, so that symlinks are preserved? (dunno if infobot install has symlinks, but ya never know)
12:46:26 [rbm]
markd2: Oh, sorry. I misread you that you had done it before
12:46:59 [markd2]
Gerr (geremy) over in #wplug runs our infobot, and everything got moved about a month or two ago
12:47:03 [markd2]
so it can be done :-)
12:47:48 [rbm]
k. I'll leave him a memo
12:50:37 [Psychephylax]
* Psychephylax goes to convict
12:50:46 [rbm]
K, memo left
12:52:00 [markd2]
cool
12:52:07 [markd2]
Psychephylax is in prison?
12:59:55 [markd2]
again?
13:04:28 [talli]
rbm: how did you miss the game???
13:16:16 [rbm]
talli: I went to wal-mart at 10:30 PM to buy stuff for the BBQ my wife is putting together for her area (she's a RA), and the wal-mart lady made us scan everything _3_ times because she kept screwing up with the tax exemption...
13:16:37 [rbm]
talli: ...so we got home at around 1 AM and went to bed at 2, and I couldn't wake up at 4 for the game
13:19:00 [denshi]
ouch
13:20:42 [cro]
cro (~cro@defiant.nca.asu.edu) has joined #openacs
13:26:53 [cro]
cro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
13:33:22 [talli]
rbm: that truly sucks.
13:33:26 [shagster]
shagster (~mkovach@web1.alal.com) has joined #openacs
13:33:32 [talli]
were you able to party for the rest of the day?
13:33:41 [talli]
shagster lacks pants
13:33:58 [shagster]
I have pants on, just no underwear :)
13:34:47 [talli]
that's ok. it's not like you have anything to cover
13:35:04 [shagster]
Hey now :)
13:37:22 [shagster]
I think we should setup a 'Cloning Popular Sites with OpenACS' in the near future
13:37:24 [jim]
jim (~jim@12.155.172.152) has joined #openacs
13:37:31 [jim]
re...
13:38:04 [shagster]
...er
13:38:25 [jim]
...er <mij>
13:39:23 [jim]
anyone define plain sql functions in acs using pg? (just curious to know if it's prevelent)
13:51:57 [davb]
i have never used a SQL function.
13:52:39 [jim]
same here... been poking around the pg programmers guide, happened to see them in there
13:53:41 [davb]
i am not sure if there is any advandate/disadvantage over pl/pgsql
13:54:22 [jim]
I'm looking to index many tunes from jazz fake books, and I came up with a start that's very notes-like so far...
13:54:53 [jim]
(unlike notes, the package drop script works every time :)
13:55:14 [markd2]
a working drop script? is that allowed?
13:55:21 [davb]
jim: are you using the CR?
13:55:28 [jim]
nonoNO :)
13:55:33 [davb]
markd2, they work as long as you don't actually _use_ the package.
13:55:43 [markd2]
ah. ok.
13:56:20 [jim]
well, I'm thinking about doing so, the data model will be going thru many changes before it's actually done
13:56:21 [cro]
cro (~cro@defiant.nca.asu.edu) has joined #openacs
13:56:26 [davb]
actually we fixed alot of them in the porting.
13:56:34 [davb]
using the CR?
13:56:40 [jim]
yeah
13:57:59 [jim]
so, my present idea, is to have a table of tunes, with composer, genre and approx date of composition, and general-comments
13:58:09 [jim]
on each tune
13:58:18 [davb]
ok.
13:58:46 [davb]
BTW, general comments needs to be fixed to use the CR properly :)
13:58:48 [jim]
that part is started, ui is basically working, add/edit/drop of songs work
13:59:39 [davb]
sure. did you see the formwizard.tcl in new-filestorage? feed it a table name, and it extracts he metadata from the database and makes forms and add/edit/delete functions.
13:59:59 [davb]
although I haven't actually used it yet...
14:00:20 [jim]
no, not yet...
14:00:52 [jim]
but I'll definitely look; seems promising... I did see some wizardlike stuff in the template form demos
14:02:51 [davb]
I guess there is work more in this direction. it would be nice to have it built into the toolkit.
14:03:10 [jim]
once I have all those things, I want to be able to form sort criteria sorta on the fly, seems like tune-within-composer-within-genre can be as useful as tune-within-genre-within-composer
14:03:55 [jim]
then, that forms the songs that can go into any number of lists
14:04:05 [davb]
Ah. you want multiple sort fields?
14:04:32 [jim]
yeah, thinking about it...
14:04:37 [davb]
news has some good examples of sorting on one field.
14:04:48 [davb]
there is some code built in to openacs to help.
14:04:55 [davb]
but its in the wrong place :)
14:04:58 [jim]
but I want to go in the direction of simplest-possible
14:05:37 [davb]
jim: sounds like you want two things: limit by foo, sort by bar....
14:05:47 [davb]
or sort first, then limit results.
14:06:11 [davb]
which if it isn't built in, probably should be.
14:06:44 [jim]
well, yes. but more than that: I want lists of tunes, and the ability to form types of lists that add attributes
14:07:12 [jim]
forexample
14:08:30 [jim]
take three tunes, Blue Monk (Monk), Blue in Green (Miles) and Witchunt (Wayne Shorter)
14:08:58 [jim]
these tunes would be in the base system I just described
14:09:46 [jim]
and I want to let the user say, "I want to make my own list, containing those three tunes"
14:10:02 [davb]
ah. kinda like amazon.com :)
14:12:19 [jim]
Further, I want the user to be able to say "My list is based on pages of The Real Book, 5th edition, so I want to add the fields 'page number in that book', 'recording that the transcriber listened to to produce the chart' and 'key the song is transposed to in that chart'"
14:13:23 [jim]
I want other users to be able to say, "Oh, cool! the real book! I have that book, so I'll dump these tunes into it with the page numbers, keys and recording references"
14:13:44 [davb]
BTW, it looks like formwizard.tcl breaks on postgresql 7.2
14:13:59 [jim]
maybe he has a half hour, so he only does the S-es.
14:15:08 [jim]
Then, I want someone doing a gig to be able to say, "I want a list of tunes out of the real book, 5th ed for the sets I'm going to play."
14:15:51 [jim]
now, switching to jamsession mode...
14:17:40 [jim]
maybe there are groups of musicians forming... perhaps a bunch of people go to wander over to a particular jam session, seeing its listing on the jamsession site...
14:19:39 [jim]
and on the site with it, are a single list of tunes taken from multiple lists... some from Real Book 5th ed, some from Real Book Vol II, some are originals by one of the session players, so he would supply the charts (hence, maybe they're not in any fake books)
14:20:42 [jim]
so, as you can see, I want ordered and unordered lists which are heterogeneous
14:28:58 [jim]
another part, the Real Books are widely known for their chord progression errors... so the same tune by the same composer could have charts in several books, with the given charts having varying degrees of accuracy
14:29:39 [rbm]
http://kevin.watson.name/research/openoffice.html
14:29:40 [oacs-chump]
A: http://kevin.watson.name/research/openoffice.html from rbm
14:29:54 [rbm]
A: "OpenOffice.org in an Academic Environment: A Viable Alternative to Microsoft Office 2000?"
14:29:55 [oacs-chump]
added comment A1
14:30:03 [rbm]
A:| "OpenOffice.org in an Academic Environment: A Viable Alternative to Microsoft Office 2000?"
14:30:04 [oacs-chump]
titled item A
14:30:16 [rbm]
A: Study done at Utah State University
14:30:17 [oacs-chump]
added comment A2
14:30:27 [rbm]
A: (qualitative, rather than quantitive, I should add)
14:30:28 [oacs-chump]
added comment A3
14:31:05 [davb]
jim: sounds like be need a "list of other objects" package.
14:31:22 [jim]
yeah
14:31:29 [davb]
or, you can use acs_rels
14:31:35 [jim]
now I have some questions about rels
14:31:39 [davb]
:)
14:31:57 [davb]
basically, all the packages I have seen have created their own mapping tables insteadof using acs_rels
14:32:24 [davb]
if these toolkit wide tools are too slow to be used for what they were designed for, fix them or get rid of them :)
14:33:56 [jim]
I think that people are coming up with really good ideas... but they're often hard to understand (sc, cr, portal come to mind)
14:34:18 [jim]
so not many want to or are able to just jump right in
14:34:39 [jim]
but I'm getting away from the questions I had...
14:34:47 [davb]
could be. i meant the existing packages too. of course the toolkit was never finished so the packages were built to work with whatever was working at that time.
14:34:54 [davb]
ok jim. back to the real world.
14:37:06 [jim]
when I look at the admin page for a subsite, I see these 4 links that I never understood completely why they were all there: group, group type, relational segment, relationship type
14:37:36 [jim]
I understand that a group is implemented by a table of graph edges
14:37:57 [davb]
* davb needs to learn this graph stuff...
14:39:12 [rbm]
* rbm hands the travelling salesman problem to davb :)
14:39:24 [davb]
thanks. is that in SICP?
14:39:34 [davb]
I think I am missing some math here.
14:40:50 [jim]
is the farmer's daughter involved in this problem? :)
14:41:57 [jim]
and I understand you can create types of groups by specifying the object types for the ends of the graph edges
14:42:03 [jim]
but that's about it
14:42:42 [davb]
jim: i think that most of the time, you can ignore that stuff. the interface is for engineers, not users.
14:43:06 [jim]
I have a engine in my car...
14:43:38 [davb]
weird. according to postgresql the pg_attribute table does not have OID. i though all tables had oid.
14:43:40 [jim]
but seriously, what are those things, and how do they relate to each other?
14:44:07 [davb]
a relationship type is how someone is a member of a group.
14:44:16 [davb]
not sure on relationship segment.
14:44:33 [davb]
I am not sure how they are related to subsites.
14:44:45 [jim]
member versus component?
14:44:47 [davb]
we need someone from dotlrn to explain how they built it using that.
14:44:51 [davb]
jim: yes.
14:45:39 [jim]
direct member versus member of a group which itself is a component of the group in question?
14:45:51 [davb]
maybe :)
14:46:08 [davb]
anyway. for example Main Site has a predefined relational segment: Main Site Member
14:46:38 [davb]
so a relationship type defines the type of relationship.
14:47:07 [davb]
apparently, new relationship types currently need to be created by code.
14:47:16 [davb]
so forget that. complete useless.
14:48:05 [jim]
just means I'd have to provide UI for it
14:48:15 [jim]
(if I were to go in that direction)
14:48:20 [davb]
relation segments are where you define the actual relationships. Ie member of main site. then you can assign that relationship to a group.
14:48:45 [davb]
jim: i doubt you need anything fancier than member or component. just create groups with member groups should handle most cases.
14:48:46 [jim]
I see
14:49:14 [davb]
note: i still don't know how you would use this to make a useful application out of it.
14:49:23 [jim]
so I'm looking at creating "groups of songs"
14:50:13 [davb]
interesting.
14:50:39 [jim]
but I will need to add attributes somewhere... to the graph edges?
14:51:14 [davb]
i don't think you want to use groups.
14:51:18 [jim]
so on one end of the edge is the group ("song list"), on the other is the song...
14:51:23 [davb]
that seems to be specifically for users.
14:51:29 [jim]
well, an acs rel
14:51:31 [davb]
acs_rels is the generic version.
14:52:00 [jim]
and then, piled onto the middle of the edge, is extra attributes
14:52:07 [davb]
which are objects themsevles. so you can have a song_group rel with a song_groups attribute table to store them.
14:52:52 [jim]
see, I want users to be able to add rel types, with arbitrary numbers of attributes
14:53:04 [davb]
ah.
14:53:06 [davb]
hmmmm.
14:53:33 [davb]
you could possible use acs_attributes for that. acs_objects can use a generic storage for object attributes.
14:53:56 [davb]
when you create an object type you can specify the custom table to store attributes or use the generic storage.
14:54:04 [jim]
I don't want them to -know- they're doing that... as far as they know, they're making types of song lists (book lists, gig lists, list of arranged tunes, etc)
14:55:14 [davb]
so you could create the new object type based on their input.
14:55:25 [jim]
and I want them to be able to decide, "I want this kind of song list to have a reference to a book of tunes and a page number in whichever book that is"
14:55:37 [davb]
now I see why you like the form generation idea.
14:55:46 [jim]
yep
14:56:08 [jim]
that kind of thing is going to play a role
14:56:31 [davb]
i don't know anywhere in the toolkit thar previously did this. but you might want to look at CMS. It might have some dynamic content-type features.
14:57:09 [davb]
test=# select oid from pg_attribute;
14:57:16 [davb]
ERROR: Attribute 'oid' not found
14:57:16 [oacs-chump]
Label ERROR not found.
14:57:26 [davb]
anyone else see this? PG 7.2
14:57:44 [davb]
or can anyone confirm this does work on 7.1?
14:57:57 [rbm]
oid's are optional in PG 7.2
14:58:46 [jim]
so here's a guy with a fake book, the first one on the site (and I didn't predefine such), he should be able to go, "I want to represent fake books, so I'm creating a type of list called a 'Fake Book', which is a list of tunes, each of which know their book and page number"
14:59:03 [davb]
ok. :) pg_class and pg_type have oids, but pg_attribute does not. maybe I don't need it.
14:59:22 [jim]
oids better not be catching...
15:00:04 [davb]
jim: that is pretty complex.
15:00:35 [davb]
first you need to dynamically generate the tunes objects.
15:00:40 [davb]
then the list objects.
15:01:57 [jim]
maybe I can hide the complexibility by letting them just define lists, let them think that's as far as it goes, then let them define attributes
15:01:59 [davb]
have you ever looked at the open/acs 3.2 photo gallery code? it lets users define new fields for photos and stuff. this can get pretty complex on the UI.
15:02:34 [davb]
jim: maybe.
15:02:46 [jim]
* jim thinks about that...
15:03:24 [davb]
I wonder if your magic make-you-own-object-type code could be mergerd with the enter-data-about-object-objects package (ETP2)
15:04:03 [davb]
I'd almost say, get it working with predefined tunes and lists. then go from there.
15:04:19 [jim]
thing is, I can let them -really- do that... and not be bothered with -types- of lists (there's only one kind, and every list can have its own set of attribs)
15:04:46 [davb]
jim: sure.
15:04:53 [jim]
the problem with that being there exist types of lists of songs in the real world
15:05:51 [jim]
here's the original thought: me and this piano player sometimes get together to play, and we're thinking of taking it out and getting some gigs
15:06:02 [jim]
so we're creating lists of tunes
15:06:27 [jim]
all these tunes are "tunes we both want to be able to play"
15:06:47 [jim]
one is a tune neither of us knows well or at all
15:06:52 [jim]
(Lush Life)
15:07:06 [jim]
some are tunes we both know
15:07:10 [jim]
some I just know
15:07:13 [jim]
some he just knows
15:07:51 [jim]
so our goal is to arrange lists of tunes we know to form gig lists
15:09:09 [jim]
and to move the tunes either or both of us dont' know well over to be part of the tunes we do know well together
15:10:15 [davb]
ok so you want to create a list of tunes with several attributes, I know this song, I would like to learn this song, etc. or maybe a rating of how well you know a song.
15:10:26 [jim]
yes
15:10:37 [davb]
you both create a list, then you want to be able to compare them to see which songs you both know etc...
15:10:55 [jim]
him and I both own Real Book 5th ed and Real Book vol 2
15:11:26 [jim]
yeah, that's the original idea
15:11:30 [davb]
ah, so that needs to go in there too? so you can say, if its in Real Book 5th Ed. I can learn it?
15:12:04 [jim]
and it's on page 204 (out of like 700, these books are not small)
15:12:58 [jim]
plus, I play bass and learning to represent harmony in new ways on its fingerboard, so I need some list attribs
15:13:50 [jim]
maybe I need also a way to say "Hey, the complete 5th edition is right there, I want to copy that list and add personal attribs"
15:14:21 [davb]
ah. so you want to annotate an existing list.
15:14:31 [jim]
could be, yes
15:15:10 [jim]
plus, I want to have each tune in certain lists commentable
15:15:25 [davb]
that could be accomplished by creating a related list. so jims-list-related-to-the-other-list and your attributes are stored in the parallel list
15:15:40 [davb]
and still have general comments on the list, or list items.
15:16:07 [davb]
ack. but. do the general comments on a list-item apply to the item, as it appears in any list, or only the item in that particular list?
15:16:09 [davb]
:)
15:17:04 [jim]
"Beautiful tune, I went to Yoshi's and it was Craig Handy, Dave Holland, Jeff "Tain" Watts and Herbie Hancock, and they did such a beautiful rendition, and they reharmonized the bridge... the new chords are ... "
15:17:43 [jim]
(and how would I know what chords they were playing? I got a really good ear :)
15:19:19 [davb]
ok. brb, another crisis :)
15:19:35 [jim]
ok... I'm wandering out for awhile
15:19:41 [jim]
bblater
15:20:38 [paje]
paje has quit ("regrouping; bbiab")
15:20:49 [paje]
paje (~paje@208.184.248.88) has joined #openacs
15:20:58 [rbm]
paje: the problem?
15:20:58 [paje]
rbm: wish i knew
15:21:00 [rbm]
Crap
15:21:05 [paje]
paje has quit (Client Quit)
15:24:38 [paje]
paje (~paje@208.184.248.88) has joined #openacs
15:25:19 [denshi]
paje, status?
15:25:19 [paje]
Since Mon Jul 1 12:06:30 2002, there have been 0 modifications and 3 questions. I have been awake for 43 seconds this session, and currently reference 18 factoids. Addressing is in optional mode.
15:25:30 [denshi]
crap. he's lost his memory again
15:26:00 [rbm]
I'm testing the move again. paje's memory is backed up.
15:26:50 [paje]
paje has quit (Client Quit)
15:29:35 [jim]
does paje use pg?
15:29:45 [markd2]
dbm
15:31:21 [denshi]
paje, dbm?
15:31:56 [Psychephylax]
paje, are you a dba?
15:32:05 [markd2]
or maybe doa
15:32:12 [Psychephylax]
:)
15:37:01 [docwolf]
docwolf (~wolf@adsl-34-224-116.bct.bellsouth.net) has joined #openacs
15:39:33 [paje]
paje (~paje@208.184.248.88) has joined #openacs
15:39:37 [rbm]
paje: who are you?
15:39:37 [paje]
i am a slut
15:39:43 [rbm]
paje: literal paje
15:39:44 [paje]
rbm: paje =is= the medicine man and oracle in Amazonian tribes | a silly bot|a Peson Assembled for Judo and Exploration|a cannibal|acannibal|a slut|a wanker!
15:39:52 [rbm]
paje: rbm?
15:39:53 [paje]
you are a CS messiah who will crush all the EJB posers and their kindred and lead us all to a new era of coder enlightenment.
15:39:56 [markd2]
alltel?
15:39:57 [paje]
alltel are a bunch of wankers
15:40:00 [rbm]
YES!
15:40:11 [markd2]
woot!
15:40:50 [Psychephylax]
cablevision?
15:40:50 [paje]
somebody said cablevision was almost a bunch of wankers but they managed their ISP pretty well
15:41:55 [rbm]
I'm going to hibernate paje for a minute more, so I can run him on a screen session
15:42:18 [paje]
paje has quit (Client Quit)
15:42:50 [paje]
paje (~paje@208.184.248.88) has joined #openacs
15:43:05 [rbm]
paje: you're now back for good.
15:43:05 [paje]
rbm: excuse me?
15:43:15 [markd2]
paje: your back! watch out!
15:43:15 [paje]
markd2: sorry...
15:44:55 [denshi]
we need to teach paje to hack servers to store himself in
15:52:13 [Psychephylax]
any of you ever do skeet shooting?
15:52:27 [denshi]
I have made my peace with skeets
15:52:32 [til]
til has quit (bear.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)
15:52:32 [Spork]
Spork has quit (bear.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)
15:53:12 [denshi]
paje, netsplit is | <action> NETSPLIT! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!
15:53:13 [paje]
OK, denshi.
15:53:23 [denshi]
paje, netsplit!
15:53:23 [paje]
denshi: what?
15:53:27 [denshi]
paje, netsplit
15:53:27 [paje]
* paje NETSPLIT! RUN FOR paje's LIVES!
15:53:41 [markd2]
heh
15:53:43 [ctpat3r]
ctpat3r (~ctpat3r@129.252.42.9) has joined #openacs
15:53:43 [til]
til (til@port-212-202-128-197.reverse.qsc.de) has joined #openacs
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Spork (~nblyumbe@bosco.eng.cv.net) has joined #openacs
15:53:45 [Psychephylax]
hey Roberto
15:53:46 [markd2]
is he part cat?
15:53:57 [Psychephylax]
how far are you from Ogden Utah?
15:55:10 [lilo`]
[GlobalNotice] Hi all. We've just experienced a hubbing problem affecting one main rotation server. We have rehubbed it and are waiting to see if the new configuration is stable. Apologies for the problems and thank you for using OPN!
15:55:58 [rbm]
Psychephylax: About 1 hour away by car
15:57:11 [jun_]
jun_ (~jun@AP-203.167.6.193.sysads.com) has joined #openacs
15:58:16 [Psychephylax]
ok
15:58:26 [Psychephylax]
You have to go buy me a machine gun from them...I'll paypal you the money
15:58:27 [rbm]
why?
15:58:43 [rbm]
a machine gun? Like a real machine gun?
15:58:43 [jun_]
hi guys ... seems to be quite now
15:58:49 [Psychephylax]
like yeah...
15:58:56 [Psychephylax]
You know..one that goes bang bang bang?
15:58:58 [denshi]
rbm, when has *phylax made sense before?
15:59:00 [Psychephylax]
And all the skeet die
15:59:11 [Psychephylax]
well, not die..shatter
15:59:12 [davb]
hi jun_
15:59:20 [jun_]
hi dave
15:59:31 [jun_]
i will just be here for a short time
15:59:37 [rbm]
Psychephylax: err, okay. as long as guys with black suits and sun glasses don't come after me because of that :)
15:59:40 [jun_]
really need to get some ZZZZs
15:59:47 [denshi]
*phylax, it takes a two-man team to operate a machine gun
15:59:59 [davb]
jun_: ok. what TZ are you BTW?
16:00:00 [Psychephylax]
you're right...
16:00:07 [Psychephylax]
one to pull the skeet...and one to shoot
16:00:13 [denshi]
I don't think skeet shooting has a 'heavy weapons squad' division in competition
16:00:20 [davb]
that seems rather unsporting.
16:00:30 [Psychephylax]
:-/
16:00:34 [denshi]
ah, that would be a 3 person team. probably 6, to get enough skeets in the air to count
16:00:45 [Psychephylax]
are you all trying to ruin my dreams? are you? ARE YOU?!! Hmmm...fess up!
16:00:57 [jun_]
GMT +8
16:01:07 [denshi]
1 person to shoot, 1 person to feed ammo & swap out barrels, 4 people to pull skeets
16:01:16 [davb]
ah, practially opposite me.
16:01:22 [jun_]
i am working on a project now using cofax
16:01:33 [davb]
cool. is it better than ACS Java?
16:01:46 [jun_]
maybe after this I will bring in some concept into etp 2... etp 2.5
16:01:54 [jun_]
well i believe its better
16:01:57 [davb]
great.
16:01:58 [jun_]
its more simpler
16:02:05 [jun_]
not mumbo jumbo java
16:02:08 [jun_]
it uses java
16:02:26 [jun_]
but no xml, il8n, blah blah
16:02:33 [jun_]
its a very simple architecture
16:02:38 [jun_]
that really looks to deliver
16:02:38 [davb]
ah. nice.
16:02:50 [jun_]
i may have to port it to postgres though
16:02:53 [davb]
but that is more a content delivery, not really any collaboration?
16:02:59 [jun_]
it was made from ms sql
16:03:02 [davb]
I thought it was postgres ready.
16:03:09 [Psychephylax]
* Psychephylax goes to eat some lunch
16:03:10 [jun_]
nope
16:03:12 [davb]
obviously I was wrong :)
16:03:22 [jun_]
its ms sql and some ported it to mysql
16:03:26 [davb]
how do you cook the skeet after you have killed them?
16:03:35 [denshi]
napalm?
16:03:40 [jun_]
but since its has stored proc the mysql part was not that good
16:03:56 [davb]
right. postgresql would be really nice.
16:04:04 [jun_]
it used mysql tables and emulated the stored proc in java
16:04:17 [jun_]
yeah the data model is very simple compared to ACS
16:04:28 [jun_]
i will ask john sequiera for help though
16:04:40 [jun_]
since he knows the difference between ms sql and pg
16:04:53 [jun_]
john did port oacs to ms sql right?
16:05:04 [davb]
so does anyone have pg 7.2 installed?
16:05:08 [rbm]
I didn't think so
16:05:11 [denshi]
no, he ported most of the acs-kernel
16:05:32 [denshi]
actually he might have finished acs-kernel. but IIRC it was just proof-of-concept
16:06:54 [jun_]
i have
16:06:57 [jun_]
7.2.1
16:07:03 [jun_]
works ok on OACS
16:07:15 [davb]
can you do select oid from pg_attribute and see what it says?
16:07:56 [rbm]
davb: it won't, unless you enable some param
16:08:01 [jun_]
wait that will be for a moment
16:08:13 [davb]
oh. ok. i don't actually _need_ the oid.
16:08:23 [davb]
brb thanks!
16:09:20 [jun_]
ERROR: Attribute 'oid' not found
16:09:20 [oacs-chump]
Label ERROR not found.
16:09:46 [jun_]
i guess i need to enable that param rbm is talking about
16:10:01 [jun_]
newbie question... rbm is roberto mello right?
16:10:11 [markd2]
yes
16:10:47 [jun_]
i am very new to irc... in fact this is the only time i do irc just to talk to you guys
16:11:08 [jun_]
talli insisted that i go here
16:11:31 [jun_]
anyway dav what i like about cofax is that is similar to etp
16:11:45 [davb]
excellent.
16:11:46 [jun_]
but some stuff maybe borrowed
16:11:52 [jun_]
have you tried my modetp?
16:11:55 [davb]
perhaps I should try to install it to compare.
16:11:58 [davb]
i have tried the demo.
16:12:07 [jun_]
you can select the template right in modetp
16:12:18 [jun_]
but in cofax what it does is better
16:12:36 [jun_]
cofax like etp has 2 templates. listtemplate and filetemplate
16:12:47 [jun_]
much like index and other template in etp
16:12:55 [rbm]
jun_: I don't remember what param that is. Check postgresql.conf and the PG 7.2 release notes.
16:13:13 [jun_]
ok thanks rbm
16:13:29 [jun_]
but its the selecting of template that I would like to carry over to etp
16:13:39 [jun_]
rather than setting it like in modetp
16:13:40 [davb]
rbm: interestingly, pg_class, and pg_type have oids just not pg_attribute. I don't know of a reason to turn it on :) the formwizard.tcl was using it, but i took it out and it still works.
16:14:06 [rbm]
* rbm shrugs
16:14:09 [davb]
jun_: thanks for checking that. I was curious if it was just my installl.
16:14:29 [jun_]
how cofax does it it looks for the parent section's template
16:14:35 [rbm]
davb: Hey! I checked it too, how come I don't get any thanks?!?!?$!@#$!@
16:14:39 [rbm]
(:
16:14:54 [jun_]
no prob davb
16:14:56 [davb]
rbm: thanks!! I though I thanked you earlier :)
16:15:05 [rbm]
I was j/k
16:15:07 [jun_]
so cofax can survive with only 2 templates
16:15:35 [davb]
jun_: so the default file and index templates would work for any content type?
16:15:40 [jun_]
and you can just make templates for subsection/folders as you go down the tree
16:15:54 [jun_]
well yes
16:16:33 [jun_]
so the templating system actually searches for template which I think is better rather than setting it
16:16:37 [davb]
ok. I have plans for that, but probably not for 2.0. I hope to get some dynamic form/template stuff into etp 2.1
16:17:04 [davb]
ok.
16:17:07 [jun_]
I hope after my project in cofax I can bring in some of this on etp
16:17:32 [davb]
but that requires a programmer to build the actual template. Possibly the progrmamer/designer might build serveral templates, and let the content editor choose.
16:17:33 [jun_]
also like what we are planning on the admin part. all cofax admin pages are templates too
16:17:43 [Psychephylax]
damn it..why couldn't I be smart and invent ice cream on a stick concept
16:17:44 [jun_]
this is also one good aspect about the platform
16:18:04 [davb]
Psychephylax: you are what 100 years to late or soemthing?
16:18:09 [davb]
s/to/too
16:18:13 [Psychephylax]
yeah i know
16:18:19 [Psychephylax]
sucks
16:18:23 [jun_]
its layered but into simple layer
16:18:28 [jun_]
unlike CCM
16:18:50 [jun_]
ccm just plainly too complex
16:18:57 [jun_]
without the benefit
16:19:01 [davb]
jun_ so does cofax search for a template for each section, and if it is not present, go up the tree to the nearest template?
16:19:15 [jun_]
yes that is how cofax does it
16:19:18 [davb]
ok.
16:19:31 [jun_]
but it searches if a certain item has a template
16:19:40 [jun_]
so unlike etp it can template a single content item
16:19:44 [davb]
ok.
16:19:58 [jun_]
then looks for the filetemplate if its not index
16:20:10 [jun_]
if it does not find one it goes up the tree until it gets one
16:20:18 [davb]
i like that concept. I like being able to choose different templates from a list. ie: one photo attached, two small photos attached, etc. so we can assign images to go with an article etc.
16:20:24 [ctpat3r]
i couldn't tell from the docs if there are any accounting/financial modules available. i'd be interested in contributing (once i master tcl and acs-kernel :).
16:20:25 [jun_]
so it requires alteast 2 templates on the root node
16:20:49 [jun_]
yeah that is what you can already do with the modetp that i hacked
16:20:55 [davb]
i don't think there is currently anything like that.
16:21:09 [davb]
jun_ so we probably need to blend the two approaches.
16:21:11 [jun_]
well not in the demo
16:21:42 [jun_]
i am thinking of using the cofax concept in the backend
16:21:54 [jun_]
and retaining the front end of etp
16:22:00 [ctpat3r]
davb: i know the ins and outs of a pretty good commercial fund-raising software package, and i want to create a better open-source version. i think openacs would be perfect for that.
16:22:05 [davb]
possibly a parameter to set to search for templates or not.
16:22:14 [davb]
ctpat3r: talk to talli.
16:22:26 [davb]
that sounds like his kind of project.
16:22:27 [jun_]
i am thinking of always search
16:22:44 [ctpat3r]
davb: cool, thanks, i'll message him
16:22:54 [jun_]
and the parameter just overrides / sets the template of the subsection
16:23:17 [davb]
jun_ i am just imagining where a ocntent_type has extended attributes that may or may not be present for a particular type/template pair.
16:23:32 [davb]
so you would have to address that.
16:24:01 [jun_]
well currently in modetp I just snag the data
16:24:12 [jun_]
and on the adp I just check if its nil
16:24:36 [davb]
of course this would display "something" if a template was missing.
16:24:43 [jun_]
so the adp page does not barf it the content is not complete
16:25:09 [jun_]
yes the basic template should be able to display the basic content type
16:25:31 [jun_]
which is ok since we are always extending from the basic content type
16:25:37 [jun_]
we are not making new ones
16:25:42 [davb]
right.
16:26:23 [jun_]
so I guess the idea will be ok. it may not display the all the contents but then hey it will display the basic contents
16:26:38 [davb]
i found that i have to move some of the admin functionality outside of the www/admin folder, if I want to have a section editor that can't add new sections etc...
16:26:51 [davb]
jun_ right. if you are making a custom type, you need a custom template.
16:28:05 [jun_]
yes you will need to make template for a new content type but atleast the default template is a fall back
16:28:10 [jun_]
just incase you forget to do that
16:28:27 [jun_]
hmmm maybe the call for www/admin is not good.
16:28:35 [jun_]
oooppps... I think that was my idea