00:01:22 talli, for you, how long has it been since college? 00:01:30 3 years 00:01:32 1999 00:02:09 remember the joy that is registration? 00:02:21 in a moment of nostalgia, i am reading a slashdot comment list at mod-1 00:02:37 they haven't computerized registration yet? 00:04:09 oh, they have. it just makes the torture a solitary process 00:04:36 ah 00:05:37 how many people that post to slashdot do you think are shills for the company the article is about? 00:08:36 a specific article, or all of them? 00:08:44 woo 00:08:49 It's thunderstorming 00:09:32 Talli, how old are you if you don't mind me asking :) 00:09:45 26 00:09:50 daaaamn 00:09:54 I was way off 00:09:55 lol 00:10:01 what did you think? 00:10:06 late 30's ;) 00:10:10 ah 00:10:27 My bad 00:10:36 i have an old soul 00:10:38 Do I dare ask how old everyone else is? 00:10:51 if ya tell me dave is 28 I'll kill ya all! 00:10:52 ;) 00:11:18 btw...I'm in round 2 of Gentoo vs. Me 00:11:52 I finally found a cd that doesn't have a corrupt 3rd stage tarball 00:12:04 ah... 00:12:21 yeah, stage3 really is the way to go, unless you're really a hardcore masochist 00:12:33 I think I did it wrong again anyways 00:12:43 So I think there will be a round 3 of Gentoo vs. Me 00:12:44 there's something to be said for compilnig you're entire system from scratch, if i was trying to really learn and test the app 00:13:00 it takes a long time to learn how to install that stuff 00:13:10 at least, many times through the docs 00:13:10 Gentoo? 00:13:13 yeah 00:13:16 heh 00:13:20 talli, I thought you were 30's too 00:13:29 :-D 00:13:32 but i found that i was really able to find the answer to all my questions through the website 00:13:35 you should try to act younger - try fucking up more 00:13:42 yeah! 00:13:42 as i said earlier, old soul 00:13:42 LOL 00:14:06 i fuck up plenty in my personal life 00:14:15 notice it's 9 PM and i'm talking about gentoo isntalls? 00:14:15 talli, I set up the gentoo box at work and I don't remember it being too hard 00:14:26 oh yeah? 00:14:30 welcome to Geeks 'R Us 00:14:30 English 322: 15-WAGNER'S RING OF NIBELUNG-W 00:14:33 take it? 00:14:35 no 00:14:43 well, maybe they haven't updated the docs for 1.2 00:14:47 Try English 325 00:14:56 no, don't take any Wagner, the anti-semitic bastard 00:15:03 talli, I'm reading the install.txt on the 2nd virtual console 00:15:20 what else is available in the english department 00:15:26 is he? I thought the nazis just co-opted his work 00:15:30 I also don't remember having to recompile the kernel when I installed it at work 00:15:47 Inquizitophylax: ah! i've never done it that way. i usually have a second computer and i read the install docs from the website 00:15:48 denshi I put my money on English 325 00:15:53 denshi: huge anti-semite 00:15:56 Yeah that's what I did at work 00:15:59 massive. really vitriolic 00:16:35 I can do that, but I have only one monitor so I would have to KVM between the 2 (more annoying than holding Alt+Fx) 00:16:49 Since I tend to leave scroll lock in the wrong position 00:17:19 i read an article that one of the great heartbreaks of nietsche, who worshipped wagner, realized how massive an anti-semite wagner was 00:17:31 if I may knock people working wagner's side of the racial fence, it seems like a pretty stupid thing to dedicate one's lifework to. 00:18:02 well, nietzsche certainly wouldn't have liked how later Germans used him 00:18:02 apparently, nietsche saw wagner as a mentor and frequently visited wagner and his wife 00:18:31 until nietsche realized what an antisemite wagner was. and also probably when the syphilis began to eat his brain 00:19:03 *phylax darling, how is it you know UT's course numbers? 00:19:17 no, he wouldn't. but he probably wouldn't have liked how most people use him, even the stoned philosophy undergrads who reference him over pizza 00:19:34 talli: around that time, his violently racist sister took over control of his estate and editing duties 00:19:49 the last books of his life were chopped up to fit her agenda 00:20:06 yeah, that i heard too. she also hid alot of his work that railed against anti-semistism as well 00:20:32 i guess being a aryan german anti-semite usually means you're a racist too, huh? 00:20:56 denshi I randomly guess ;) 00:21:03 Guessing gets you far in life 00:21:07 :) 00:21:16 denshi: what else is available in the english departmenet 00:21:20 Unfortunately you can also fuck lots of things up that way too 00:21:38 sweet monkey jesus. $2654 for 12 credit hours 00:21:48 talli there's one thing that really angers me about the install.txt 00:21:50 of course, the fact that wagner was a piece of shit doesn't mean his artistic contribution isn't worth studying 00:21:58 no english this semester, unless an interesting course opens up 00:22:03 About half way through they begin going "And the final step" ... for about 15 steps! 00:22:12 i mean, roald dahl wasn't a nice man, neither pound or eliot, etc 00:22:26 and wagner 00:22:29 I thought Eliot was just a wanker 00:22:58 wagner's even been played in israel, whch perhaps isn't the team that one should get peace awards from... 00:23:09 anyway, I'd like to learn about the nordic/germanic fable system that wagner fed off of, like the Tristan/Isolde cycle 00:23:12 no, eliot was a pound worshipper, who was... 00:23:32 yup. They should have deported Pound. 00:23:56 i know nothing of that. i was vaguely aware that he liked vikings, but only because of the fat woman in horns 00:23:57 alltell? 00:23:58 ack 00:24:00 alltel? 00:24:04 paje? 00:24:13 * Inquizitophylax cries ... he's gone...he's really really gone... 00:24:46 denshi: have you studied nordic stuff? 00:25:11 no, except for a bit of Ibsen. 00:25:27 but I don't think that really counts 00:25:32 ah 00:25:42 talli ... as a quick side note 00:25:58 for some unbeknown reason hd0 is my hdc 00:25:58 yes? 00:26:10 weird 00:26:20 okay, reg is done, so I'm going to go find a self-destructive social activity 00:26:22 l8r 00:26:45 perhaps the boot partition is by default on the hd0? 00:26:48 see ya denshi 00:27:36 Beer! 00:27:38 Bye denshi 00:27:46 I don't know 00:28:06 the only reasonable explanation I came up with is the fact that it goes by hard drives...not ide devices 00:28:42 ah 00:28:55 is it different on BSD? 00:30:00 I don't think so 00:33:15 weee 00:33:18 the moment of truth 00:38:39 wooo 00:38:50 There go both of my installs :) 00:41:51 Looks like I installed Grub but my Gentoo kernel is not proper so it kernel panics...and the Grub pointer to XP is wrong :) 00:44:08 Not very good :-/ 00:46:08 kinda funny though 00:46:21 talli, do you remember if you compiled your own kernel? 00:57:52 Inquizitophylax: i did compile them 00:57:55 i think you have to 00:58:00 do you want to be able to burn cds? 00:58:03 odd 00:58:07 if you do, linux is kinda weird and screwy about it 00:58:21 Eh, not my primary concern 00:58:28 I just want to be able to boot without a kernel panic :) 00:58:29 i don't know how BSD does it, but in linux you have to include SCSI emulation support 00:58:38 yeah BSD is the same 00:58:45 ah... the kernel panic. i think i know what you need t odo 00:59:07 are you compiling the kernel in /usr/src/linux or /usr/src/linux-2.4.19? 00:59:16 ummm 01:00:07 talli? 01:00:09 you're machine is scewred now 01:00:13 i think you may need to reinstall 01:00:20 yeah you think? :) 01:00:27 I'm waaaaay ahead of you LOL 01:00:34 make sure you're comilig in /usr/src/linux not the other one 01:01:07 I did compile in /usr/src/linux 01:01:16 - /usr/src/linux-2.4.19 consists of patches for the kernel in /usr/src/linux 01:01:28 hm... 01:01:29 I followed the docs ;) 01:01:59 weird 01:13:01 sash (~MIA@213-48-249-86.cro.cvx.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #openacs 01:13:45 /usr/src/linux should be a symlink to /usr/src/2.4.xxx 01:15:18 sash has left #openacs 01:18:56 whoa 01:19:01 where the hell did that come from? 01:19:21 * Inquizitophylax is in #gentoo 01:19:26 ah, ok 01:19:35 But I don't think that's related to my question 01:28:07 bah 01:28:09 So close 01:28:10 yet so far 01:42:10 davb (dave@alb-24-58-162-82.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs 01:43:53 hi there 01:43:57 hey dave 01:44:09 Gentoo 2 / Me 0 01:47:07 heh 01:49:46 sash (~MIA@213-48-145-4.cro.cvx.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #openacs 01:49:50 Inquizitophylax: how old do you think i am? 01:49:58 54 :p 01:50:06 Inquizitophylax: Do you have the full kernel panic msg? 01:50:07 hey! 01:50:23 I can get it 01:50:40 There's a thread: http://lists.gentoo.org/pipermail/gentoo-user/1980-January/013391.html 01:51:07 sash, I don't have a browser on this box 01:51:21 Er, no solutions there. 01:51:47 Did you compile in support for whatever fs you're using? 01:52:43 yeah I checked almost everything 01:53:16 hang on 01:53:18 Is your machine branded? 01:53:35 yeah...branded by me :) "DON'T TOUCH" 01:53:43 Parents don't listen though 01:53:49 * Inquizitophylax shakes fist angrily 01:53:58 I had a kernel panic on a Compaq when I pointed /boot at the wrong partition. 01:54:01 Chill out. 01:54:16 that might be the problem 01:54:23 Because grub is misnumbering my stuff? 01:54:26 Although 01:54:31 They wiped up your mess when you were a baby. 01:54:52 * sash hasn't used grub. 01:55:01 talli: btw, cd recording requires scsi emulation in windows too :) 01:55:28 * Inquizitophylax thwaps davb 01:56:16 what? 01:56:26 Inquizitophylax: i am 31 btw 01:56:28 heh, I love arguing with people about things I know something about but not enough to get it to work 01:56:33 Cool 01:57:40 What corresponds to /boot in /etc/fstab? 01:58:29 Och, you can't boot, hence get that info. 01:58:44 it should be /hdc2 01:59:23 I set up /hdc1 128mb for swap /hdc2 200mb for /boot /hdc3 5 gigs for root and /hdc4 8 gigs for /other 01:59:23 Has that machine worked in the past running Linux. 01:59:27 yes 01:59:39 Worked fine with Mandrake and FreeBSD 01:59:57 At this point, I'd be tempted to try lilo. 01:59:58 And I do not plan on re-arranging the drives to suit someone especially when I know it can work 02:00:29 but grub sees it 02:00:40 grub is nicer i think...but I don't know how to configure it :) 02:00:49 it doesn't seem too hard 02:00:52 but their docs are wrong 02:01:11 I mean, if you use common sense you can figure things out 02:01:47 What do the good people on #gentoo suggest? 02:02:26 What fs type is /boot? 02:02:36 ext3 02:02:42 Fine. 02:03:07 What was the text of your kernel panic msg? 02:04:07 I can try looking at it but it will lock up my KVM 02:04:52 Why does it lock up? 02:05:15 It's a KVM switch...I haven't gotten to the point of troubleshooting that 02:05:24 Power cycle KVM? 02:05:51 brb 02:05:53 davb has quit ("Client Exiting") 02:08:33 You obviously chose the correct CPU type? 02:09:08 I should have 02:11:54 OT: 200M for /boot! What have you got in there? 02:11:54 Label OT not found. 02:13:10 stuff 02:13:21 Bah, I'm not going to bother with #gentoo 02:13:37 I'm 2 steps ahead of them 02:14:12 sash, if you want to walk me through a stage3 tarball install I would be very grateful 02:14:43 Although I do not understand why this is even necessary as I did this in a few hours at work with 1.1a 02:14:56 Is that a gentoo term? 02:15:02 Granted the hard drive/cd-rom config was a little different 02:15:08 what is a gentoo term? 02:15:21 I'm not familiar w/ gentoo: stage3 tarball 02:15:25 oh 02:15:48 davb (~chatzilla@alb-24-58-161-27.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs 02:15:51 They have 3 packages...a really really basic one...stage1 just comes with a kernel and some other small things 02:16:02 a mediocre one that has been bootstrapped (?) or something 02:16:28 and a much fuller one with sources and portage (app tarballs) 02:16:53 At this point I would be very happy with being able to boot WinXP 02:17:03 Grub, LILO, whatever 02:17:18 For my needs Debian, RH, SuSE & Mandy are fine. 02:17:23 use the boot disk... 02:17:58 Sash, I have not tried Debian or suse in person but RH and Mandrake are a little too bloaty for me 02:17:58 LFS to learn more about the system. 02:18:04 i can't get grub or lilo to play nice with win2k, so I am using a floppy to boot into linux :) 02:18:08 debian is nice. 02:18:19 Gentoo is like LFS but faster 02:18:21 you can do the net install and install practically nothing. 02:18:23 That's why I've stripped RH. 02:18:55 I dunno 02:18:57 I think their evaluation single CDs were pretty small. 02:19:08 I can probably just fix this all by installing Mandrake again 02:19:23 but I want Gentoo 02:20:09 Do the people on #gentoo don't have any suggestions? 02:20:19 Not anything useful 02:20:23 s/don't// 02:20:32 Drat. That's weird. 02:20:57 I _think_ I can get Gentoo up and running now 02:21:08 but this won't help my WinXP thing 02:21:37 hrm 02:22:11 you can use the winxp menu to boot linux i think. supposedly the win2k menu will work, but I haven't gotten it to work. 02:23:33 Inquizitophylax: Have you asked #linpeople? 02:24:13 no 02:24:20 I'm going to fix my XP install first 02:25:43 IIRC, my RH install was around 500M. 02:32:07 gurgle.. 02:32:12 I can almost fix XP 02:32:31 * davb goes to play morrowind 02:34:47 heh 02:34:51 you got that running well yet? 02:34:54 or not 02:34:56 nah. 02:35:14 that was neverwinter nights, which my video card is too slow for. 02:35:35 brb 02:35:37 davb has quit ("ChatZilla 0.8.7 [Mozilla rv:1.0.0/20020530]") 02:47:20 sash, you still there? 02:50:59 I got WinXP going 02:51:49 Yes 02:52:18 Does XP use NTFS? 02:56:03 re. 02:56:42 yes 02:56:44 hey Jim 02:56:48 Guess what 02:56:59 "what" 02:57:00 And yes, I compiled NTFS read-only support 02:57:03 lol 02:57:04 did I win? :) 02:57:11 yes yes you did 02:57:15 you won a spanking from paje 02:57:23 on wait...he's busy with talli 02:57:30 paje, again! 02:57:34 :) 02:57:39 They went to a hotel 02:57:43 oh :) 02:58:03 hey, yeah, no paje 02:58:16 sash I compiled ntfs read support into the kernel but that shoudn't matter getting grub to boot XP 02:58:36 anyway, I stopped off at the camera store yesterday to pick up a 49-55mm step-up ring 02:58:36 ok, let's start over... 02:58:44 hey Jim 02:58:44 Guess what 02:58:46 and inquire about my camera as a side note 02:58:50 I dunno :) 02:59:16 He told me the camera is not ready yet..and it should be within this week 02:59:27 I gave him my cell phone to call 02:59:33 cool... 02:59:35 So he called me today this morning... 02:59:58 Then he told me that the camera is not done yet but his buddy at Olympus can get a new one sent for 50$ 03:00:16 hmm... 03:00:25 I said ok but now that I think about that it's a bit odd that they are offering me a new camera for 50$ 03:00:42 well, I guess they keep the old one? 03:00:47 i would guess so 03:00:57 otherwise it would be an excellent deal for me :-) 03:01:03 Two cameras for 50$ and some shipping charges 03:01:04 lol 03:01:31 shipping?? I thought they were within blocks of you and the camera store... 03:01:39 They are 03:01:47 but yeah, that would be a good deal 03:01:49 but I think he sent it in via UPS and UPS back to the camera store 03:01:49 Inquizitophylax: With lilo and my Win98, I have to set map-drive = 0x[0-9][0-9] to = 0x[0-9][0-9] 03:02:10 heh, ups kickback :) 03:02:23 Sash...I remember I had to do something simiar with Mandrake and Win2K install 03:02:43 Mandrake just kinda knew 03:03:03 map-drive = 0x[0-9][0-9] to = 0x[0-9][0-9] 03:03:10 that's identrical! 03:03:32 jim: lol. 80 to 81 03:04:11 yup 03:04:18 Then underneath, you ditto map-drive and to, swapping the settings. 03:04:19 that's exactly what i had to do 03:04:22 is that scsi? 03:04:32 Yes. 03:04:33 nah, it's like bios drive remaps 03:04:36 or something like that 03:04:40 I dunno 03:04:56 i'm going to solve my problem soon 03:05:00 I'm using SCSI. Inquizitophylax is right. 03:05:04 I'm just going to buy removable racks 03:05:15 could be, I just remember that from when I was an all-scsi no-ide kinda guy :) 03:05:21 Then I just pop in the right drive 03:05:26 Use something that works and won't take up much of your time. 03:05:55 I can't afford that for drive sizes unless I could build up a separate controller thing 03:05:57 You can spend the rest of your life building & patching kernels alons. 03:06:08 Once the government gives me my money I will order removable racks 03:06:11 SCA? 03:06:30 jim, so what do you think about that 50$ for a camera thing 03:06:42 He wasn't pushy about it...he just told me that was a proposition for him 03:06:45 well, is it an upgrade? 03:06:50 I don't know 03:07:00 depends if I get a brand new camera without any problems...then yes 03:07:07 but then there are all these caveats 03:07:13 refurbished drive... 03:07:14 hmm... is your original in good shape? 03:07:22 It was in decent shape 03:07:34 I could have kept shooting with it 03:07:44 (ok, yes I know you sent it in for problems... so I guess there were problems) 03:07:46 It's not that hard to fix warm pixels with Photoshop 03:08:06 some pixels were out? 03:08:14 or nearly so? 03:08:18 Is it under guarantee? 03:08:20 they were the wrong color 03:08:27 sash: yeah 03:09:17 If I get a camera in a box with all the accessories I am in good shape 03:09:49 I recall a chap who got water into his camera. When it had dried somewhat, he was getting some funky effects. 03:09:54 I can sell most of them and recover probably over the 50$ I paid (I have all the stuff less lens cap + camera strap from the one I sent it in) 03:09:59 Inquizitophylax: for your own personal side, total up all costs of the camera you had into it and compare to what you would get (and get them to tell you what the deal is exactly) 03:10:18 jim, I don't follow 03:10:33 http://www.wired.com/news/gizmos/0,1452,51205,00.html 03:10:33 A: http://www.wired.com/news/gizmos/0,1452,51205,00.html from sash 03:10:40 first, what do you have into the camera so far? 03:10:50 what did you spend, total? 03:10:52 I don't know...as long as I get a new/functional unit with a lens cap and a camera strap as soon as possible I will be happy 03:11:00 LOL 03:11:04 750$ for one 03:11:05 well, you don't have to say :) but let's call it I.cost 03:11:15 432$ for the second one 03:11:24 which one was bad? 03:11:29 750$ 03:11:36 the big cost... 03:11:37 but it came with about 500$ worth of accessories 03:11:42 which I still have 03:11:50 a B-300 lens which sells for about 250$ on eBay 03:11:59 a WCON-08 lens which sells for about 150$ 03:12:04 that's a lot of money you're talking about here... 03:12:06 4 filters 03:12:24 you -definitely- need to know what the deal is going to be before agreeing to it 03:12:33 sash has quit ("Goodnight") 03:12:41 I think it's too late since I think I already agreed to it this morning 03:12:51 ok... 03:13:02 you could still try to find out tho 03:13:04 I can go there tomorrow morning and talk to the guy 03:13:11 But what do I ask 03:13:34 have him ask the contact what exactly you'd be receiving 03:13:34 It's not like I walk up and be like.."yeah, why am I paying 50$ for a new camera to replace the one I bought that was still under a warranty" 03:14:07 well, at this point I think the conversations should be as friendly as possible 03:14:18 yeah 03:14:30 I've made mistakes before and paid for them 03:14:40 Lessons learned not to make them again :) 03:14:47 eg...85$ parking ticket for parking in a fire zone 03:15:05 No more parking unless I'm in between two yellow lines for me 03:15:06 did you mention the pixel problem on the list of things wrong? 03:15:10 yes 03:15:16 He gave me a receipt with the list 03:15:20 ok 03:15:22 well 03:15:24 partial list 03:15:29 he left off the less important things 03:15:39 cleaning and rubber grip 03:15:55 but the pixel mapping and firmware upgrade were on it 03:16:30 mapping? does that mean you'd keep the pixel matrix and they'd try to map bad pixels? 03:16:34 One of the things I'm going to check is the serial number of the camera I am getting back 03:16:59 To make sure I'm not paying 50$ to get my old camera back 03:17:08 that would be good... if you pay the $50 and get the same camera, something would be wrong there 03:17:20 And I'm also going to come back and ask him to re-issue me a receipt with a new date and new serial number 03:17:59 or if not the new date at least the new serial number 03:18:04 I'd take care of that same session as when you pick up the camera 03:18:16 The receipt? 03:18:59 receipt/sn, yeah,,, he'd probably want to get you all done as quickly as possible 03:19:11 yeah I guess 03:19:32 is the store large, and large volume? 03:19:39 Define large 03:20:00 Best Buy large... no 03:20:28 it's about Starbucks larg 03:20:29 e 03:21:03 ok, are there always lots of camera customers in there? do they do fairly large volume? 03:21:15 also, is your guy the store mgr? 03:21:32 it sounds like he's making decisions 03:22:23 I don't think he's a store manager 03:22:31 There's usually one or two when I wander in 03:22:50 Either people looking at the camera or getting/dropping off their film to get developed 03:23:05 The store has been there for at least 7 years :) I've lived next to it this long 03:23:24 so maybe not so high volume wrt the cameras themselves 03:23:36 ? 03:23:51 wrt...? 03:24:00 with respect to 03:24:07 yeah 03:24:21 it's like a hobby store 03:24:24 looks like their main business is film and developing 03:24:39 they do picture retouching, they sell cameras and stuff and they develop it 03:24:54 no, I would think cameras is their main business 03:24:57 hold on 03:25:21 www.splitimagephoto.com 03:26:06 That's their website 03:26:52 hmmm! you may have a openacs build opportunity! 03:26:58 lol 03:27:10 Yeah i've been thinking about rebuilding their webpage 03:27:14 have him look at photo.net 03:27:27 but I don't know how well I can do with it and what's in it for me 03:27:42 there'd have to be something in it for you 03:28:04 plus...I don't think they would be willing to shell out for co-location of a server that can handle a database and aolserver 03:28:15 do you have an openacs build of your own? 03:28:20 nope 03:28:25 who houses their website? 03:28:30 No clue 03:28:32 hang on 03:28:44 I'll look stuff up 03:29:41 he points at a student link below... and a place that says "click here" but it's not clickable 03:30:12 appears to be aitcom.net 03:30:30 Don't get me started on that website :-) 03:31:37 It need a good overhaul 03:31:52 I would think php and mysql would work much better for them 03:32:10 perhaps 03:32:12 The initial investment would be cheaper although it would require more coding 03:32:35 except mysql still doesn't do multisession well afaik 03:33:09 orackle is obviously out of the question here 03:33:27 brb 03:33:29 yes but it's much easier to find someone who will host a mysql db rather than a box where one can install aolserver, oacs and PostreSQL 03:34:13 There's quiet a few places that can use an overhaul in terms of websites 03:34:42 Cameta Camera (look it up on google) could also use an overhaul...Their website is more functional and more appealing to the eye but content presentation is odd 03:36:35 right, I forgot that a lot of these sites are outsourced 03:37:37 what, OACS sites or the ones I told you about? 03:38:02 splitimage 03:38:09 btw, what's the guy's name? 03:38:27 Lyndon 03:38:46 his pic is at that link 03:39:29 yeah I know 03:39:35 I've been to the website 03:39:41 prior to today 03:39:47 the info doesn't attribute anything special about him... so, probably just a sales guy 03:43:03 yep 03:43:39 ever seem like when you're in the store, you're competing with other customers for his time? 03:44:09 still trying to get a feel for their volume and how busy they are 03:46:06 does he seem busy when you're on the phone with him? 03:46:41 yes 03:47:06 I usually wait for the previous customer to be helped before I go bye bye 03:47:11 I mean I get helped 03:47:31 well, if that's the case, he will want to take care of as much as he can in a single session... 03:47:53 I suppose so 03:48:10 I'm just trying to figure out why this 50$ for a new camera offer was made (supposedly from a guy at Olympus) 03:48:26 I can see it make sense in two ways 03:48:56 1. The Olympus guy is trying to do the guy a favor by selling him a new camera so that he has a brand new camera that might last longer.... 03:49:21 any receipt issue, any other issues, get em out of the way... when you go in to talk to him without altering any deals (buying stuff, otherwise conducting business), go in during idle periods, etc 03:49:42 2. The Olympus people are very very busy with repairs (i have seen a few posts on dpreview.com about this so this is not that unbelievable) 03:50:09 so it might be cheaper for them to grab overstock and send it to someone for 50$ instead of having to go through the whole repair camera deal... 03:50:20 I think it's something like a 200$ flat fee for just opening the camera 03:50:31 if (2), it makes more sense for them to actually honor the warranty... 03:50:47 What do you mean? 03:50:50 To repair my camera? 03:51:06 if the camera is under warranty, they choose whether to repair or replace... 03:51:13 yeah 03:51:20 Right..but why would I have to pay 50$ for this then? 03:51:25 if it's in their interest to replace, they should honor the warranty 03:51:26 That's what I get caught up on... 03:52:05 camera sent in under a warranty is being replaced for 50$... 03:52:14 Usually things get replaced for free 03:52:20 At least in my opinion 03:52:49 There's always a reason #3 03:52:58 maybe think about doing this... see if you can get the original deal (under warranty repair) and also get the missing list items put back on the list 03:53:16 He's getting my camera replaced by Olympus for free...and he just wants to tack on a 50$ charge to make some money 03:53:19 then if they opt to replace, it should be under the warranty 03:53:42 I made sure to ask him about a warranty and he said yes I still get a warranty 03:54:06 if you like what he's doing for you, then you should make it clear you're up for helping him make money, if (3) is the case 03:54:35 hmm? 03:54:39 Damn your yoda speak 03:54:53 Inquizitophylax is now known as Yoda 03:55:00 Yoda is now known as NotSoYoda 03:55:09 but if (3) is the case, then he's not actually taking that good care of you... 03:55:09 backwards speak you do 03:55:23 Thank you..much more legible 03:55:27 I'm a forth implementor from wayy back :) 03:55:44 I was building forth systems in like 1979 L( 03:55:45 It still doesn't give you permission to talk like yoda unless you are a jedi 03:55:46 :) 03:56:09 L( is too close to :) 03:56:16 yes, but if (3) is the case why would he sell me equipment worth over 1000$ for 750$? 03:56:33 discontinued closeouts? 03:56:42 Not to mention sell me a 240$ filter for 10$ 03:56:53 no, it was his personal stuff 03:57:05 The camera and lenses were his pesonal 03:57:18 He just gave me a store receipt (even though he's not technically supposed to) 03:57:25 NotSoda: hmm, well seems like he wants to upgrade and also -seems- like he's trying to be fair 03:57:36 so (3) seems less likely 03:57:43 yes 03:57:49 Do you see my dillemma 03:58:12 I mean if he was a crook, he would charge me 1000$ for the lenses and the camera (and I'd still be getting a good deal) 03:58:21 And then add a 50$ thing for repairs 03:58:26 hmm, suddenly I'm humgry for pickle slices 03:58:28 not to mention no warranty and no receipt 03:58:32 damn you 03:58:35 did you have to say that 03:58:41 I want some too :-D but none here 03:58:53 well, you started it :P 03:59:00 you said DILLemma :P 03:59:17 So #3 seems very unlikely 03:59:26 yeah 03:59:36 But then where does this 50$ come from? 03:59:57 it seems like he's trying to be honest, and the store is busy enough that they're doing a fairly good volume 04:00:01 I suppose I could ask him what the 50$ was for but I think that would be kind of rude 04:00:33 he's a good guy...I think he's risked his butt for his and my benefit more than once already 04:01:09 receipt for camera, 10$ for an IR filter (he knew that the filter he sold me was at least 40$) 04:01:14 ok, then let's factor him out of the equation for a sec: 04:01:31 Ok..Then there's Olympus 04:01:34 looking at this $750 camera by itself, 04:01:49 let's factor them out too, just leaving you 04:01:51 you can't put whole 750$ to the camera 04:02:13 so what do you think you spent on the items you sent in to olympus? 04:02:27 At the time I bought the camera I was going to buy it for 500$ (tax & s&h incl.) from CompUSA 04:02:44 ok 04:03:01 Infact, at a later date did buy a 2nd identical camera for 432$ (they had a 399$ sale) 04:03:02 so that's essentially retail 04:03:24 so the $33 was tax? 04:03:30 yeah 04:04:08 if I had to go buy this camera right now, I would expect to pay about 550$ for it 04:04:12 Assuming I could find one 04:04:48 ok, so look at it this way... 04:04:53 take his deal, 04:05:03 add $50 to the price 04:05:07 $800 04:05:18 look at all you got, plus camera is new 04:05:22 worth it? 04:06:07 oh yeah 04:06:28 plus, you might be able to get a warranty on it 04:06:31 An extended warranty would go for 50$ for 3 years from compusa 04:06:53 The thing that bothers me about the transaction is not the amount 04:06:54 not bad given the amount of money involved 04:06:56 but why 04:07:05 true... 04:07:08 there is that. 04:07:26 the only thing we have now is possibilities 04:07:26 For all I know, every time there are prourn:s with my camera I might be getting charged an x amount of money 04:07:46 Doesn't seem like there is a warranty after all does it ;) 04:08:06 well... you have a point 04:08:25 It might be easier (albeit slightly longer) for me to bypass this grey market deal and go with my receipt and camera straight to Olympus 04:08:54 Which I probably would have done in the first place, had I been successful in finding it and Lyndon said he could get my camera in and out faster...It will be 2 weeks tomorrow 04:09:01 so -politely- see what you can do about doing the sn/date/receipt thing 04:09:08 That's my plan 04:09:26 then register the camera like you just bought it 04:09:48 I'm going to write down the s/n..then bring in the original and ask him to make me a new one 04:10:09 Well, then there's this comment he made to me: "Don't fill out the registration card...Just bring it back and I will take care of it" 04:10:31 ahh 04:10:36 Technically, I don't need to fill out the warranty card to get repair service 04:10:39 he wants to be the middleman 04:10:58 At least that's what the Oly website portrayed 04:11:16 Although..on the warranty card it does say that the card has to be mailed in within 10 days or there will be no warranty 04:11:56 ok, if there will be a warranty reg card, this will be a not-OEM, but retail, package 04:12:08 right 04:12:30 well, now i have a warranty card for the old serial number camera which pretty much forces me to go to him for service/help 04:12:40 Assuming I get just the OEM camera 04:13:12 I just want my camera back without problems and a warranty so I can go take pictures 04:13:40 NotSoYoda is now known as Sleepiephylax 04:14:10 this is a digital camera with SLR lens capability? 04:15:11 SLR-Like 04:15:32 It doesn't have interchangeable lenses but it has threading for add-on accessory lenses 04:15:47 He sold me a B-300 which is impossible to find with the camera 04:15:48 so, forexample, you could buy a standard olympus-mount long lens? 04:15:52 no 04:16:10 I can buy threaded lenses and add them to the built-in one 04:16:29 Eg. B-300, WCON-09, 49mm filters (others with step-up/down rings) 04:16:30 so the builtin one is not meant to be replaced... 04:16:34 no 04:16:50 it's very similar to IS series cameras from Olympus 04:17:00 wait 04:17:18 www.pbase.com/psychephylax/ 04:17:50 www.pbase.com/psychephylax/digital_tools is the gallery of the camera 04:17:54 It's the big long lens one 04:19:15 that's a nice looking thing 04:19:19 yeah 04:19:29 It's like a Shelby Cobra 04:19:33 a rare breed :) 04:20:12 seem like each of you want to keep the other happy... 04:20:30 10x Optical Zoom, Image stabilization (canon pro90 is the next closest with canon slr cameras being the majority of the IS market and they all retail for 4500$ lens + camera body) 04:20:44 2.1 megapixels is the only downfall of the camera 04:20:50 I would present this to him, give him a chance to explain/adjust 04:21:02 Aside from that I don't see me needing any other camera 04:21:19 present what to him and how do I do it in a way that's not offending 04:21:29 I don't want to make it seem as if I am suspecting him of any wrongdoing 04:21:53 at least not until I am 100% sure 04:22:25 howbout this: tell him you were wondering about how things would go with the warranty in his name... what would the process be 04:22:54 Well, when he sent it in...he told me he was going to tell the Oly rep that it is his personal camera 04:22:56 (btw, camera being -new- and of this kind of quality seems really good) 04:23:10 yoda speak! ;P 04:23:18 * Sleepiephylax dials up yodatranslate.com 04:24:05 This camera used to retail for some obsurd cost of like 1200$ 04:24:16 (way the by , camera new being good seems. really!) 04:25:00 I dunno 04:25:06 I just want a functional camera back 04:25:09 as soon as possible 04:25:10 davb (~chatzilla@alb-24-58-161-27.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs 04:25:18 yo davb 04:25:24 hi jim 04:25:29 * Sleepiephylax attacks davb with a deck of pointy cards 04:25:39 hi Sleepiephylax 04:25:42 on guard! 04:25:49 * Sleepiephylax slashes some hairs off davb 04:25:52 whats up with the cards? 04:25:58 I dunno 04:26:04 It's 1:30 am and I am sleepy 04:26:07 it is? 04:26:10 aigh 04:26:21 g'nite :) 04:26:23 LOL 04:26:26 dave 04:26:28 read the long 04:26:29 ack 04:26:33 log...what's your opinion 04:26:46 the long log is long! 04:27:06 All this wong is making me hungry for chinese food 04:27:54 Off topic: Diet Lemon Coke is better than Diet Lemon Pepsi 04:28:03 And I hate Coke and love regular Pepsi 04:28:10 use a real lemon and regular coke/pepsi. 04:28:19 the other stuff tastes like lemon pledge 04:28:23 That would be just too logical and easy 04:28:24 I thought you said "diet lemon cake" 04:28:53 Dave, you reading the long log? 04:29:22 M*A*S*H 04:29:45 Mustard Again Shell? 04:29:59 The music from that show always depresses me 04:29:59 oh, oops..I didn't finish 04:30:14 *E*D P*O*T*A*T*O*E*S 04:30:24 oh L:P 04:30:36 * Sleepiephylax misses his camera 04:30:44 It's IR sensitive 04:30:59 I need it back so I can do IR photography and write my camera/filter comparison 04:31:11 * jim embarks on another service 04:31:18 To get me my camera? 04:31:26 this time with a data model :) 04:31:28 Or find pickle slices in the fridge? 04:31:32 Is she hot? 04:31:44 I wouldn't mind getting hooked up with a model 04:31:49 does she have any friends that are single? 04:32:14 select data from model where peer is related; 04:32:24 (no rows found) 04:32:36 Oh, you're cheating 04:32:42 it's only 10:30 there 04:32:54 Must be West Coast 04:32:57 yep 04:33:03 sf bay area 04:33:12 coool 04:33:15 I wanna visit cali 04:33:31 actually, I just want to go on a cross country road trip 04:33:37 there is always linuxexpo 04:33:39 Anyone know if they rent RVs? 04:33:50 probably 04:33:54 dunno for sure 04:33:55 That would rock 04:34:01 I can rent an RV for a month 04:34:04 and go driving :) 04:34:31 probably on a 6 month lease minimum (typical basis) 04:34:51 lessee... 04:34:54 cool 04:35:03 ok, here's my service: 04:35:09 I looked it up on Google 04:35:18 Does it cost 50$? 04:35:22 And I want all the info upfront 04:36:08 John, Paul, George and Ringo are in a band, but some of them moved to different parts of the world (one's in New York, rest stayed in UK) 04:36:34 so to keep in touch and get things together for gigs, they come to the site and register... 04:37:04 Sweet..It's about 750-1000$ per week to rent an RV 04:37:06 they want to keep track of set lists and arrangements of tunes 04:37:35 So...how long would it take to drive from NY to Arizona to washington to Florida back to NY? 04:37:57 ow, you guys are giving me a headache. 04:38:08 depends on how many times the wheel turned during the trip :) 04:38:11 Actually I want to do a figure 8 starting in NY --> Maine --> Arizona --> Washington --> Florida -->NY 04:38:49 wow, that's a big flat 8! 04:39:08 yeah 04:39:19 I would alter it to hit some interesting spots 04:39:22 eg. New Orleans 04:39:26 BTW hub.org has reasonable hosting for OpenACS 04:39:58 i'll be back tomorrow. 04:40:16 davb has quit ("ChatZilla 0.8.7 [Mozilla rv:1.0.0/20020530]") 04:40:58 so, John comes on the site and adds the songs Michele and Birthday to the set list for the Nov 11th, 1111 gig 04:41:09 Reasonable? 04:41:25 Jeez...their bandwidth rates are horrid 04:41:25 (ancient history now, but it was musically definitive :) 04:41:42 Jim, can you hold that thought until tomorrow? ;) 04:41:48 * Sleepiephylax can't comprehend 04:42:09 Sleepiephylax is now known as Sleep 04:42:09 well, I wanna put it into the channel log and copy it into a design doc 04:42:20 Sleep is now known as NotHere 04:42:55 As a side note 04:43:22 I would like to make a nice website for:üI„ñmom's job, Split Image Photo, Cameta Camera, local bowling alley 04:43:51 I know that this is a wrong place to ask too :) since you guys will all say use OACS 04:44:14 NotHere is now known as Spork_ 04:44:16 George, Paul and Ringo get email notifications of the new songs, and respond by learning the tunes... when they have done so, they come back to the site and say they know the tunes... all get notifications, and they arrange a rehersal session 04:44:57 Spork_ is now known as poon 04:45:02 bbtomorrow 04:45:05 ok 04:45:07 :) 04:45:09 :) 04:45:14 good luck on the camera :) 04:45:24 Yeah, I'll tell you how it turns out 04:45:28 Hopefully really well 04:45:43 if I get a new box I won't complain 04:46:00 I get a charger, rechargable batteries, 8mb smartmedia 04:46:28 and if you are assured that warranty repairs in the future won't involve each a $50 charge, that would be cool too :) 04:46:29 Slightly expensive...but at least I'll feel like I got something extra 04:46:35 yes 04:46:57 k 04:47:03 I will bug you tomorrow 04:47:17 * jim screens for bugs 04:47:48 * poon makes the short trip from his computer desk to his bed...total travel time..2 feet 5 inches 04:49:17 ok, the rehersal schedule thing is beyond the scope of this (since the scheduling stuff would be a part of the jamsession app)... so the data model won't have to be so complex 04:50:30 there would be a songs table, an arrangements table (foreign key song_id in songs.song_id) 04:52:17 and a table holding indication of a person having practiced a particular arrangement (or section thereof) of a particular song 04:53:08 each song can have zero or more arrangements 04:54:00 an arrangement is a collection of sections of tunes, which themselves are arrangements (of -parts- of tunes) 04:55:35 so an arrangement can also be a section of a tune, and the graph of arrangements must be acyclic 04:56:19 also needed is lists of songs 04:56:46 and lists of arrangements of songs 04:57:21 Transactions... 04:57:25 add a song 04:57:45 associate an arrangement with a song 04:58:11 edit the section part of an arrangement 04:58:32 add arrangements meant to be parts of songs to an arrangement 05:02:20 claim a person knows an arrangement 05:04:06 associate a person with a group 05:04:34 notify a person that another person knows an arrangement 05:04:53 notify all persons in group that all persons in group knows an arrangement 06:21:23 * jim is going to try implementing the song, group, person, songlist part of the data model, and transactions (incl notifications) on it 06:55:47 jim has quit ("[x]chat") 10:58:52 davb (dave@alb-24-58-162-82.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs 10:58:56 http://www.webcrimson.com/ourstories/blogsdisruptivetech.htm 10:58:57 B: http://www.webcrimson.com/ourstories/blogsdisruptivetech.htm from davb 10:59:15 B:|Blogs as Distruptive Tech 10:59:15 titled item B 10:59:29 B: are weblogs beating out fancy CMS solutions? 10:59:29 added comment B1 10:59:37 B: where does OpenACS fit in here? 10:59:37 added comment B2 11:00:12 B: this is what ETP is supposed to solve, i think. To fit in the space between full-blown over the top CMSware 11:00:12 added comment B3 11:00:35 B: i have to remember, easy-to-use! the right features, not ALL of them :) 11:00:36 added comment B4 11:02:40 ETP needs the ease of use, centralized features of weblog software, combined with the OpenACS ability to scale to large applications 11:02:56 OpenACS can easily do the weblog thing, for one or 100 weblogs or more. 11:03:13 It also adds in full community features that are not available in weblog software 11:03:45 The community features are what sets OpenACS apart. Only with the community features can you enable full scale collaboration. 11:04:15 Of course email and a weblog takes you a long way there. We need to make sure OpenACS can solve the little problems before tackling the big ones. 11:10:07 Of course, that article doesn't take into account Open Source, and a well built toolkit that enables quick development and customization. 11:11:20 this guy defines some features that CMS have that weblogs don't like workflow, permissions, revision history, and multiple types of data, but he leaves out community. 11:11:38 talli: let me know when you read this :) my brain is working this morning. 11:13:01 B: at the end are good ideas of places pre-configured setup of OpenACS would work. 11:13:02 added comment B5 11:35:00 hmm. changable template parameter for etp 2.0 apps? 12:02:34 * denshi pokes Spork 12:07:20 hi denshi 12:07:28 Spork is poon now 12:07:37 * denshi pokes poon 12:07:48 * davb uploads patch to add searchable_p to the content repository. 12:10:15 til (til@port-212-202-128-197.reverse.qsc.de) has joined #openacs 12:10:36 hi til! 12:10:43 hey dave! 12:11:28 wozzup? is this channel still alive? 12:12:13 occaisionally 12:14:46 we get some work done, have a little fun, laugh at Spork.... 12:15:38 http://www.livejournal.com/users/cassieclaire/?skip=20 12:15:38 C: http://www.livejournal.com/users/cassieclaire/?skip=20 from denshi 12:15:52 C:| The Secret Diaries of the Fellowship of the Ring 12:15:52 titled item C 12:18:24 cool 12:22:54 crazy stuff 12:26:36 * poon yawns and decides it's too early 12:26:59 poon is now known as Wakiephylax 12:29:46 oh good, I love talking people into things when they're too tired to think straight 12:32:00 Denshi, you summoned me? 12:32:29 I see in the log above that you're talking about hub.org. are you looking for hosting? 12:33:51 sash (~MIA@213-48-249-104.cro.cvx.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #openacs 12:34:06 Me and jim were discussing the poor design of www.splitimagephoto.com 12:34:20 Hello, how many of you are running TUX & AOLServer? 12:34:25 And he said it could use a nice OACS overhaul 12:34:29 lol 12:34:34 everyone 12:35:12 Does the network lag deform the TUX speedup? 12:36:05 hello sash 12:36:19 is the TUX question referred to me? 12:37:50 Infraphylax (nblyumbe@ool-18baa8de.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #openacs 12:38:01 Don't ya be running away in a server split! 12:38:07 * Infraphylax bites rbm 12:38:09 hello denschi. Since you wrote the article, perhaps, but others are welcome to comment. 12:38:13 damn, another *phylax 12:38:21 s/denschi/denshi/ 12:38:22 you should call yourself volvox instead 12:38:27 attack of the clones! 12:38:34 exlax? 12:38:45 no no..I'm not exing out yet 12:38:48 talli has quit (bear.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 12:38:48 Wakiephylax has quit (bear.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 12:38:48 oacs-chump has quit (bear.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 12:39:04 and chump is defeated.... 12:39:12 who will hold our links? 12:39:23 denshimon...About hub.org I was looking at a website that needed an overhaul for their website 12:39:37 * Infraphylax will do his best 12:39:41 sash, I don't quite follow your sentence. What kind of deformation are you talking about? 12:39:51 talli (~chatzilla@pool-162-83-238-204.ny5030.east.verizon.net) has joined #openacs 12:39:51 oacs-chump (~oacs-chum@alb-24-58-160-28.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs 12:40:06 yay..chump synced up 12:40:08 Infra, I have hosting on hub.org and am looking to move off it onto my own box 12:40:13 Ah 12:40:24 Their bandwidth costs are outrageous btw 12:40:31 I don't see how jim was saying they're cheap 12:40:34 so I'm looking to split a 1U at rackshack w/ someone 12:40:42 oh 12:40:46 how much is it 12:40:53 $99 12:40:54 denshi: interesting. 12:40:59 i might be interested. 12:41:02 lemme check on the cap 12:41:11 yeah me three 12:41:25 I might be interested but for different reasons 12:42:20 400GB Monthly Transfer 12:42:27 lol 12:42:28 that seems reasonable 12:42:29 took me a sec to find it 12:42:38 Do you have shell access? 12:42:54 i guess so; it's full dedicated server 12:43:49 i need to develop a website for them first before I can jump in on the offer 12:44:09 denshi: shrug. A Sun developer told me that network lag would severely affect TUX's speed. I'm no expert. 12:44:46 you're asking me if high network latency curtails any advantages of HTTP serving inside the kernel? 12:45:31 In general usage, yes. 12:45:33 well, if your network is slow, your server will have to hold on to those connections for longer than it would like, whether it is handling them in user space (aolserver) or in kernel space (TUX, khttpd) 12:45:50 bbl 12:45:54 me too 12:45:54 so it's not like one or the other is more susceptible 12:45:56 I need more sleep 12:47:41 Infraphylax: Count sheep. 12:47:47 oacs-chump has quit (bear.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 12:47:47 talli has quit (bear.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 12:48:01 kernel webservers are designed to avoid context switches and memory copies to reduce execution time and memory requirements. 12:48:15 high network performance is a side effect of that 12:48:44 and no matter the speed of the network, those benefits are still there 12:48:47 talli (~chatzilla@pool-162-83-238-204.ny5030.east.verizon.net) has joined #openacs 12:48:47 oacs-chump (~oacs-chum@alb-24-58-160-28.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs 12:50:11 [GlobalNotice] Hi all. A main rotation server has just split and rejoined twice. The fault seemed to occur with the hubbing and we've rehubbed it. Thanks. 12:52:14 actually, to come down hard on the side of TUX, the reason I started playing with that was because of network lag 12:53:16 denshi: Thank you for the insight. 12:54:06 see, if you've got lots of connections over slow links talking to aolserver, then you're hanging on to a fairly heavy thread (interps, db conns, etc) just to stream content down a socket 12:54:29 and if they grow, and you run up against your max threadcount, then you're basically hosed 12:55:24 IIRC, philg had a util in his nsd admin package to reset nsd when all its connections were taken by slow users 12:57:32 so TUX is cool there b/c you just hand the delivery over to the kernel and let nsd move on. & the kernel is happy to support perhaps 1 order of magnitude more sockets than most userspace programs 12:57:41 but I repeat myself 12:59:12 denshi are you using ETP? 12:59:18 nope 12:59:20 ok:) 12:59:41 THere isn't too much feedback past the initial stage on the bboard. 12:59:41 I've been doing server stuff this last month 12:59:50 right. 12:59:51 I haven't done anything that overlaps with ETP 13:11:35 sash has left #openacs 14:18:01 eep 14:38:27 hey guys 14:40:06 paje again! 14:40:10 oh rats.. 14:40:12 * Infraphylax hides 14:48:37 Infraphylax: any luck with gentoo? 14:49:34 hi talli 14:51:11 hey davb 14:51:17 how's etp2 coming along? 14:51:29 i am doing alot of thinking :) 14:52:05 nice 14:57:01 http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=189785 14:57:02 nsjava 1.0.0 is released 14:57:02 D: http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=189785 from talli 14:57:10 cool. 14:59:46 D: DanW releases nsjava 14:59:47 added comment D1 15:02:03 anyway talli. did you see that stuff I wrote in the log about CMS and weblogs? that is an interesting article. 15:02:33 yes, i saw that a little bt ago but i was too sleepy to absorb it 15:02:35 lemme go back 15:03:20 davb: i would love an ETP2 weblog 15:04:19 haha. he references clayton christensun 15:04:25 he's a friend of my pops 15:04:35 actually, my dad told me about meeting with him yesterday 15:07:00 neat. 15:07:15 anyway the idea is that 99% of people don't need all that fancy stuff. 15:07:22 it's true 15:07:25 it's why luke built ETP 15:07:27 and weblog is a piece of cake in etp2. 15:07:30 right. 15:07:40 99% of the aD CMS was useless or too much 15:07:43 very cool! 15:08:31 have you started hacking etp2 yet 15:08:31 ? 15:08:32 talli: right. and if someone needs that the pieces are in there in the CR to build it. anyone who needs all tha thas the $$$ and will want it custom built. 15:09:18 hacking etp2. yes. 15:09:25 I am trying to figure out what to put back in. 15:09:41 yes, that's true 15:09:42 but etp2 should also make that easy to develop 15:09:42 in other words, etp2 shouldn't force someone to build their own tool if they can't find what they want in etp2 15:09:42 the reason that would be bad is that it would cause whoever has $$$ to pay more 15:09:44 I fixed the search part of the CR that etp2 needs. 15:09:46 cool 15:09:51 very nice! 15:10:07 davb: do you use amphetadesk? 15:10:25 talli: right. what I want is a bunch of little packages that can be hooked together with service contracts to build up a whole application, 15:10:34 talli: i have tried it. its pretty cool for a newsreader. 15:11:00 but there is no way to delete items after you read them, or set how long they stay on the page, at least I couldn't figure it out :) 15:13:18 yes, that would be very cool 15:13:19 have you also been chatting with luke about this stuff? 15:13:55 http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/web/library/wa-techarch/index.html?dwzone=web 15:13:55 E: http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/web/library/wa-techarch/index.html?dwzone=web from talli 15:14:10 E: Building a technical infrastructure for web-based enterprise systems 15:14:11 added comment E1 15:15:04 talli: some. i need to get my thoughts organized. 15:15:48 i also need to talk to don when he is available. 15:16:31 to see about taking apart CMS to keep the good bits. 15:19:21 could amphetadesk be implemented in oacs as a portlet? that wouldn't be too hard, would it? 15:19:22 cool 15:19:22 we can open a forum to discuss it on clients.museatech.net if you'd like 15:24:44 yeah, that makes sense 15:24:45 i would also speak wtih lars about his UI specs 15:24:45 one of the strong points of etp should not just be the ease of adding content but finding previous content as well 15:24:45 for instance, if you visit the cms at etp.urbanparks.org you'll see there are some nice features like adding content and so on 15:24:45 but you'll also see it's pretty much a disaster when trying to organize it 15:29:23 talli: we could build something similar to aggregate RSS. Neophytos was working on it. 15:29:33 very cool 15:29:43 that would be a really nice feature for a portlet 15:30:31 talli: the organizaing issue is one I am thinking about. 15:30:44 with etp, each section or folder is a seperate etp instance. 15:30:56 to add an item you have to navigate over to the right place first. 15:30:56 very cool 15:31:16 I am thinking of a etp-master that can add and admin every etp instance under it. 15:31:41 actually i think neophytos orginally had that idea too :) 15:31:50 very cool 15:33:01 but this is why i get distracted. all these neat ideas that I can add on once etp 2.0 is done:) 15:33:11 i just want to make sure it is easy to hook into these services. 15:33:47 yes 16:19:51 davb: still tehre? 17:23:55 anyone home? 17:24:32 i am not at home 17:24:37 hey talli 17:24:39 til: you bastard! 17:24:43 go brazil!!! 17:24:49 definitely!!! 17:24:55 what??? 17:25:04 i thought you were deutsch? 17:25:08 you think i'm german, ha? 17:25:12 oops 17:25:16 nederlander? 17:25:32 no way, austrian. and don't get me started on their football team 17:25:37 ah, ok 17:25:41 *sigh* 17:25:57 so the austrians don't support germany? 17:26:00 i'm just glad that the final is not germany-turkey 17:26:20 since that whole austro-hunagrian thing, i guess? or was it that short guy with the funny mustache? 17:26:26 they would have destroyed berlin, where i am right now 17:26:26 charley chaplin i think his name was 17:26:35 oh man 17:26:36 i bet 17:26:50 exactly ;) 17:27:01 they all had funny moustaches 17:27:11 i imagine that if turkey had beaten germany, some of the neo-nazis may have been a little, uhm, bothered 17:27:48 so how was the social? 17:28:08 i guess so ... and they should be, since berlin is the second largest turkish city, after istanbul 17:28:25 can't remember ... there was beer i think 17:28:30 :) 17:28:32 that much, huh? 17:28:43 bummer, i wish i could have made it. it sounds like it was a big one 17:28:49 waiting for more eloquent people to post their summaries 17:28:55 :) 17:29:01 are tehy all hungover? 17:29:04 still? 17:29:28 the globalization meeting was great, looking forward to carl's follow up 17:29:41 you got to meet donb, though. that must have been nice. i'm glad that a european social could happen so that we get the community even tighter 17:29:46 he did a great job in organizing the effort 17:29:58 yes, it was great 17:29:59 there are some open source projects with bigger names that have much smaller community contributors 17:30:15 how much bigger than donb can a name be? 17:30:32 the oacs doesn't have so much name recognition, but a much stronger, more involved community 17:30:45 i guess you haven't heard of paje, huh? 17:30:50 talking about recognition, is 4.5 now released or what? 17:30:56 rbm: where's paje? 17:31:05 i don't think 4.5 is "officially" released 17:31:12 i think it's ok 17:31:14 i only realized today that there is such a news item 17:31:24 i might suggest that we wait for two things to officially release 17:31:29 1) we get teh new site ready 17:31:35 2) we annouce at linux world 17:31:55 uh oh, the new site 17:31:58 that way we get a lot of people to come to the new site and we can talk to many people face to face 17:32:08 the new site *will* be done by linux world 17:32:25 davb is working on etp2 17:32:43 the problem with the new site originally was that we built it on very unstable alpha code 17:32:52 someone on the greenpeace list contributed a favicon for the new site - should i forward it to someone? whom? 17:32:55 so it worked for what it was, but you never know when it might crash 17:33:01 what's a favicon? 17:33:13 you can forward it to me, davb or rbm, or all of us 17:33:22 a little picture that is displayed in the url bar of the browser 17:33:23 we'll be working on the new site 17:33:29 oh, nice! 17:33:43 ok, i'll send it to you 17:34:01 cool 17:35:25 hmm, how to forward a mail plus attachment in mutt? 17:38:04 it's a beeyatch 17:38:24 i have yet to figure out how to forward it so that it automatically keeps the attachement 17:38:28 aargh 17:38:37 so i save the attachment then add it again 17:38:40 normally it's ok that the attachment is not forwarded imho 17:39:13 not for me, unless it's a gpg. usually i'm trying to forward some doc where the mail says something like, "here's the doc" 17:39:28 you should bounce those ;) 17:39:43 ah, good idea! 17:39:58 can you bounce them to a different address? 17:40:10 no, i mean bounce to the originator, with an offending ".doc's suck" message 17:40:11 which equals a forward, right? 17:40:18 ah, right :) 17:40:41 but now with abiword and openoffice, i don't really care 17:43:44 til: you a debian user/ 17:43:46 ? 17:43:56 or redhat? 17:44:03 yes (why, do you have secret openoffice debs for me?) 17:44:26 there are no openoffice debs???? 17:44:35 rbm: WHERE ARE THE OPENOFFICE DEBS???? 17:44:43 rbm usually knows where that kind of stuff is 17:44:44 not officially at least *sigh* 17:45:03 rbm: while you're at it, package kde 3 too 17:45:12 i installed kde3.0.2 after rbm pointed me to some secret places 17:45:23 abbaJ (~jabba@adsl-65-65-97-179.dsl.austtx.swbell.net) has joined #openacs 17:45:25 check the logs from thursday 17:45:26 without hosing your machine? 17:45:30 ok, thanks 17:45:33 yeah, installed perfect 17:45:50 but you know, i did an apt-get upgrade and got gnome2 (i think) 17:45:57 whatever it was, i found it very reasonable and useable 17:46:11 i tried to install gnome on my gentoo box, though, and it hasn't been very workable 17:46:16 i dont want to go away from kde anymore ... 17:46:27 evolution on KDE is butt slow. evolution on gnome is very nice. imagine that 17:46:37 mutt on kde is even faster ;) 17:46:39 kde is very nice 17:46:42 :) 17:46:48 mutt is nice 17:47:03 did you get the favicon? you know what to do with it? 17:47:11 yes, i did, thanks 17:47:24 i don't, but davb does. i will give it to him when we're working on the new site 17:48:01 just put it in the root www/ folder if you have time and access 17:48:16 i don't have the access at the moment 17:50:13 til: from rbm on thursday 17:50:15 16:27:44 talli: "deb http://frml.snt.utwente.nl/~remco/deb/kde3 ./" or or http://calc.cx/kde.txt 17:51:36 i've seen that on irc before but didn't there to install it ... thanks for guinea pigging ;) 17:52:03 esp. because of some note in there about possibly completely destroying the installation 17:52:03 np 17:52:12 live on the edge! 17:52:22 are you running sid/unstable? 17:52:48 you need to in order to install kde3 17:53:09 yes, that's ok 18:15:24 hey didn't you guys see my favicon.ico for openacs.org?? 18:16:07 check out http://24.58.162.82:8001/ 18:18:49 that's cure 18:18:53 s/cure/cute/ 18:29:10 wow! nice ... 18:29:10 so now there are two 18:43:58 talilee (~talli@xd84b5c59.ip.ggn.net) has joined #openacs 18:44:48 hey, anyone around? 18:44:53 damn, forgot to log off at home again 18:45:38 what? 18:45:40 its nice outside. 18:46:06 well, we have grass here. I don't know what its like down there. 18:46:47 who was that for? 18:47:50 davb: do you have access to a copy of the borkware.com sie? 18:56:46 wooo 18:56:57 Dave? 19:06:41 hey Infraphylax 19:06:44 any luck with gentoo? 19:08:16 nope 19:08:35 i'm going to wait until I get mobile racks so I can just deal with one drive at a time 19:08:48 and not worry about corrupting the Windows install 19:21:18 talilee: i only did the template 19:22:00 ah, ok 19:22:20 i'll email markd and see if he can send me a tarball 19:22:36 what exactly are you looking for? 19:23:34 perhaps i don't need the tarball 19:23:43 i want to use the basic borkware stuff for a momentum site 19:26:07 ok 19:26:31 i am working on a design with a calender flipping pages for an m 19:26:40 excellent! 19:26:45 it looked pretty cool on paper. 19:27:13 i look forward to checking it out 19:30:21 ok, i'm going back outside now. 19:30:26 :) 19:30:55 see ya 20:13:01 talilee has quit ("Client Exiting") 21:02:44 anyone around? 21:03:51 hey 21:06:35 woo 21:06:36 ;) 21:06:37 hey 21:06:43 My latest creation 21:06:45 are you guys up to date on teh whole lilo/OPN mess? 21:06:51 nope 21:07:04 hmmm... 21:07:16 a little. 21:07:18 why? 21:07:20 lilo seems to be pretty reasonable in his responses 21:07:26 just wondering if it 21:07:33 it's script kiddies who are attacking him 21:07:41 or if people have a legitimate beef 21:07:49 What's the deal? 21:07:54 he doesn't have to run the network all by himself. 21:08:07 the people that have signed the petition at printf.org seem to be from the channels that are most filled by script kiddies 21:08:09 no, he doesn't 21:08:23 but since he's the leader, i don't doubt he might have to do the most work 21:08:24 OPN has its share of useless channels. 21:08:38 yeah 21:08:42 but i think it does support open source projects. 21:08:51 and i hear that people are attacking his reputation and his person 21:08:57 Where? 21:09:08 slashdot and other mailing lists 21:09:27 the usual suspect for attacking someone's reputation with no evidence. 21:09:27 someone posted on slashdot that he is trying to maintain his salary of 150K/yr with contributions from OPN 21:09:30 i can't beleive that 21:09:40 i don't think that is the case at all. 21:09:40 yes, but also anti-semitic attacks 21:09:48 wow that is silly. 21:09:59 yeah, people are getting really nasty, for no real reason 21:10:13 there is a simple reason. they are stupid. 21:10:17 it is a large and successful project, that does need some strong administration 21:10:20 that's true 21:10:41 Oh well 21:11:18 if he can make OPN an official NPO it would be helpful i think. I don't think he is trying to get rich off OPN. 21:13:22 no, i don't think so either 21:14:13 i did a search for lilo opn 21:14:17 found stuff about him .. ;) 21:14:19 * Infraphylax reads 21:19:33 Did you guys see my picture? 21:20:54 Infraphylax: cool! 21:23:26 yeah I cheated to get some color in there 21:23:45 I combined a full color picture @ 20% opacity 21:23:50 with an IR pic 21:27:17 talli has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 21:28:35 IR photography is so cool 21:29:09 sash (~MIA@213-48-251-75.cro.cvx.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #openacs 21:29:28 I've spoken to lilo and he seems like a nice enough chap 21:30:09 I do think people do have a legitimate argument with him, but the trollers are killing the discussion. 21:30:41 sash...did you follow me from #gentoo? :) 21:30:42 If I had a job available, I'd hire him. He's in Houston. 21:30:56 Do you have a job for me? 21:30:59 * Infraphylax is willing to travel 21:31:18 Infraphylax: No, I don't think so, I was there earlier, trying to get help with dc. 21:31:36 Infraphylax: Right now, I don't even have a job for me. 21:31:37 there being gentoo? or there being here in #openacs 21:31:53 The former. 21:32:13 I did find another distro for you to try. Beehive. 21:32:18 :) 21:32:35 www.beehive.nu 21:32:40 Sash :) I hang out here with paje, dave, talli, mark and the gang for a loong time ;) 21:33:28 talli (~chatzilla@pool-162-83-238-204.ny5030.east.verizon.net) has joined #openacs 21:34:20 wow, beehive looks spiffy 21:34:30 I'll have to snatch another box from my boss for testing :) 21:34:32 P3 and onwards. 21:34:47 I have a classic Athlon 750 21:34:49 I should beo k 21:35:38 How is gentoo? 21:36:05 Seems like a headache. 21:36:19 If you're ready, use Slackware lol. 21:36:39 Gentoo is not too bad...The hardest part is the install 21:36:56 Primarily because they rely on archaic tools such as linux fdisk 21:37:13 fdisk is great. 21:37:19 I don't like it ;) 21:37:44 It's pretty straightforward. 21:37:53 sash: who are you my masked hero? 21:38:07 What do you prefer for partitioning? 21:38:42 sash: ? 21:38:52 who are you my man (or woman) 21:38:54 ? 21:39:06 I am the wind that whispers through the night. 21:39:24 Male. 21:39:40 The sibilant zephyr. 21:39:45 is it hard whispering trough the night with a penis? 21:40:07 Er, this channel is logged. 21:40:24 talli's political career is already over... 21:40:38 Mine is still nascent. 21:40:39 it's over again? damn 21:40:53 slow on the bboards today 21:41:01 seriously. sash, are you in the oacs community? 21:41:14 No, I was using ACS. 21:42:24 where's paje? 21:42:57 sash: which acs? 21:43:48 4.2 21:48:08 hey dave... 21:48:15 you want to see some of paje's relatives./ 21:48:51 my 10x optical zoom would have been excellent for this shot 21:51:35 Infraphylax: you are a picture taking fiend. 21:52:25 I had to stalk that little guy for at least 15 minutes 21:52:46 I didn't have my teleconverter on...and he ran off into his little house in a hole 21:53:01 And wouldn't come out until I pretended to walk away...then he came out on his porch again 21:53:12 I then had my teleconverter on though 22:10:29 I got a shot of a raven from 12" away. It was trapped in brambles. 22:10:43 Oh you animal torturer you :P 22:10:59 Amazing blue highlights. I released it. 22:11:06 :) 22:11:14 Hey, I'm not stalking rodents. 22:11:48 yeah talking about highlights: I like this shot http://www.pbase.com/image/2006702/medium 22:12:07 You wanted to take a pic of the little guy's little guy. lol 22:12:19 :) 22:12:26 not my fault he was sunbathing nekked 22:12:32 brb...smoke time 22:13:23 Call the animal protection people. He's going to smoke the squirrel. 22:17:30 lol 22:17:47 Dave...you awake? 22:18:07 * Infraphylax spanks dave 22:18:45 sash you do photography? 22:18:46 Does he have some sort of haptic interface? 22:19:02 Only analogue. 22:19:10 Canon T90. 22:19:20 Why no digital? 22:19:58 Unless I could use my existing lenses, it would be too costly. 22:20:42 I remember a guy from the BlackKatz? agency bringing in a digital SLR. 22:20:56 That was almost 10 yrs ago. 22:21:33 Well, you could probably use your canon lenses...but it would cost you :) 22:21:43 If I had bought Nikon lenses, I could probably use their digital bodies. 22:21:55 Canon makes digial bodies too 22:22:06 really good ones too 22:22:29 Well, I don't do the autofocus malarkey, The T90 is a classic. 22:22:37 ;) 22:23:01 The T90 pro lenses are great and relatively cheap. 22:23:03 look up D30, D60 and EOS-1D 22:23:26 I'm not sure but I think my next digicam will probably be a digital SLR from Canon 22:23:44 They make Image Stabilization on their lenses 22:23:51 Canon are known for not allowing lenses to work on different bodies. 22:23:59 that's why I have two Olympus C-2100UZ 22:24:07 Or you could use a tripod. 22:24:20 heh 22:24:26 IS is really cool 22:24:32 I love my C-2100 22:24:44 too bad one of them is getting fixed 22:24:47 I think you could use the EOS lenses in their vidcameras. 22:25:23 Digital is the future, but it's too expensive for me currently. 22:25:46 yeah I got lucky getting a chance to buy the C-2100UZ before they ran out 22:25:51 it's really one amazing camera 22:26:03 I remember a studio photographer decrying Nikon lenses as being too sharp! 22:27:15 What are the lenses like? 22:27:26 it's funny how a 2.1 mpx camera can beat a Canon EOS D30, a 4 mpx Oly E-10 and a 5mpx Sony F707 22:27:36 For the UZi? 22:27:45 Yes. 22:27:57 $ http://www.pbase.com/psychephylax/digital_tools 22:28:16 I have to use "accessory lenses" 22:28:46 It has a fixed lens system but any lens that's like a filter can be used 22:29:58 What's the cost of a 20mm? 22:30:09 20mm? 22:30:29 is that like medium format? 22:30:56 No, what's the focal length of the wide angle? 22:31:09 On my camera? 22:31:16 7mm (28mm equiv) 22:31:43 c-2100.olympus.com/ 22:31:46 What f stop is that? 22:31:59 2.8 - 10 I think 22:32:12 And how much is that new? 22:32:23 complete specs 22:33:00 If you can find one at a CompUSA...450 or 500$ (website is 450$) 22:33:28 How does that camera give better images than the larger res machines? 22:33:40 The C-2100 has been discontinued because canon terminated the contract with Olympus for IS lenses 22:34:54 look up "Figure of Merit" 22:35:06 So, Olympus are somehow interpolating their CCD array to get better performance? 22:35:07 or go here: http://www.mav-magazine.com/Jun2000/FigureofMerit/ 22:35:21 I wouldn't say that 22:35:37 The 10x Optical zoom is available on very few cameras at a "reasonable" price 22:35:58 three cameras come to mind: Olympus C-2100UZ, Olympus E-100RS, Canon Pro90IS 22:36:29 They all use the same exact lens but Olympus was able to tweak their cameras to be much faster 22:36:49 no shutter lag, rapid focus compared to the Pro90 22:38:09 There's quiet a cult following for the UZI (C-2100UZ) and the EZI (E-100RS) on dpreview.com 22:38:33 Do the lenses use the same fitting? 22:38:41 You mean same size? 22:38:59 Adapter, size, connector... 22:39:33 Could you connect the Pro90IS lens to the Olympus? 22:40:18 let me look it up 22:40:30 And retain full functionality? 22:40:50 you could 22:40:57 but the threads are different sizes 22:41:02 Olympus uses 49mm 22:41:09 Canon used 58mm 22:41:32 The Olympus B-300 uses a 55mm thread...so for my Oly cameras I use a 49mm to 55mm step-up ring 22:41:45 I would guess you could use it on a canon with a 58 to 55mm step-down ring 22:41:53 but as you know, it's better to step up than to step down 22:42:32 Hmm, Will Olympus use Nikon lenses instead for their next box? 22:42:48 no idea 22:42:55 Perhaps Sigma might help. 22:43:28 (dpreview.com) We're hoping for a 4-5mpx 10x Optical IS lens to be used in some camera so we can replace our UZIs 22:43:44 I believe Olympus and Kodak got together to make a CCD of some sort 22:43:57 My next camera purchase will be a s/hand medium format. 22:44:15 Somewhere in the future. 22:44:34 Those lenses are truly expensive. 22:45:57 yeah no kidding 22:46:06 an H2O medium format is like 25000$ 22:46:17 Hell, I'll buy my 500$ UZI and a car :) 22:46:25 I was thinking more of the Rolleis. 22:46:47 I'd buy a recumbent bike and race you. 22:47:09 The record is ~ 60 m.p.h. 22:48:17 heh 22:48:31 The Rollei d30 Flex has a 35-105mm in 35mm zoom 22:48:43 the UZI has a 380mm zoom in 35mm 22:48:58 I don't doubt the Rollei is a better camera but zooooom! 22:49:48 35mm, not medium format? 22:50:47 Dunno 22:51:07 I'm not THAT good in photography 22:51:42 Someone's selling a 8K Rollei SL66E body, back & 50mm, 15mm & 18mm lenses for £2K. 22:52:22 that means nothing to me :) 22:52:40 Lot of money for a hobby, although a decent jazz guitar is getting in that range. 22:53:32 heh 22:53:35 You're telling me? 22:53:40 B-300 = 250$ 22:53:46 WCON08 - 150$ 22:53:57 Tiffen #87 IR Filter = 80$ 22:54:28 Are you comfortable w/ Photoshop/digital retouching software? 22:54:42 yes 22:55:54 i have to be otherwise the pictures won't look that great 22:57:07 BTW, can you do macro photography w/ your camera? 22:57:18 yep 22:59:20 I have to do more macro though 22:59:25 IR has me hooked so far 23:02:08 Are you a student? If so, what do you study formally? 23:03:04 I was a student 23:03:13 Finished though 23:03:35 I have a a double major in Computer Science and Applied Math and Statistics 23:03:37 Of which subject? 23:04:00 Yikes, Bayesian functions? 23:04:48 ? 23:07:44 Statistical approach. 23:08:20 AMS wasn't my primary study 23:08:58 stats never really interested me THAT much..but it was only like 5 extra courses to get an AMS major in addition to my CS degree 23:09:09 Did you study in America? 23:09:17 yes 23:09:23 unfortunately 23:09:48 Unfortunately? Where are the better unis? 23:10:04 Not in GB. 23:11:27 Australia 23:11:36 Singapore 23:11:51 There are good ones in US but not the one i went to 23:12:57 Singapore is better for technical studies than Stanford, MIT or Caltech? 23:13:18 I don't know I never went to any of them 23:13:44 Of course I also don't have a 80,000$ dept to the banks either :) 23:14:02 * sash nods 23:15:13 University of Sussex is pretty good if you're into Complexity, Genetic Algorithms and suchlike. 23:15:34 Artificial Life stuff. 23:15:37 heh 23:15:58 I'm considering a Masters there. 23:15:59 I can't say how good/bad other schools are...but the one I went to did the whole curriculum backwards 23:16:08 Backwards lol. 23:16:16 Sounds most zen like. 23:16:17 First they emphasized coding 23:16:26 then it was theory 23:16:33 LOL 23:16:37 and towards the end there was no more than 2 courses on planning 23:16:54 If you ask me..that's half-assed backwards 23:17:04 Mine emphasized quake. 23:17:17 It would at least make sense to teach pre-planning of your project 23:17:20 with mixed theory 23:17:24 Yes. 23:17:29 then coding be the last part 23:18:02 Most people get into upper division junior and senior courses and they don't know where to start the project aside from just sitting down and coding until things work 23:19:49 how about this? most students are never exposed to the sources to large software projects in industry 23:20:20 yeah that's also bad 23:20:49 hmmm 23:20:51 the CS undergrad curriculum is syntax -> data structures -> algorithms -> topic survey -> senior project (1 semester); and then they're judged to be capable to build software in the real world 23:21:17 ROFL 23:21:17 the largest project in curriculum is about 1 semester 23:21:20 that's about right 23:21:27 That's not the case at MIT is it? 23:21:32 denshi did you go to my school? 23:21:38 ;-D 23:21:43 that depends on what school you went to 23:21:56 Same at my London uni. 23:21:57 I went to SUNY Stony brook 23:22:37 I went to (and am returning to) UT Austin 23:24:08 sash has quit ("Goodnight") 23:25:01 I disagree that theory must come before coding, though 23:25:25 theory doesn't make any sense without some experience grappling with the subject of the field 23:25:25 that might be true..but in any case..planning should be first 23:25:31 no, not even that 23:26:05 From personal experience...Once I hit upper division I didn't know where or how to start 23:26:29 coding is not a natural phenomenon. we don't have instinct for it, like we do for the physics of mechanics; or years of intuition like chemistry or foreign languages 23:26:42 it's like as if someone at the department had an after-thought and decided to tack on some planning courses before we're let out into the real world 23:26:49 you have to code to develop the intution and see the problems that theory and planning solved 23:27:37 I think the biggest problem is, as I said, closed-source software has constructed and entire society of computer users that have never interacted with the source code to their favorite apps 23:27:48 well, before we get into this huge debate...theory, coding and planning should co-exist in a single class 23:27:57 oh sure 23:28:05 in my school that was not the case 23:28:41 I'm now ripping off Richard Gabriel, but the equivalent is like teaching English majors who are legally barred from reading Shakespeare 23:29:40 most of the courses proceeded this way: Some rudimentary information about a problem is given --> Project assigned ---> Coding begins / More theory is taught --> Project is submitted --> Curve is applied