IRC log of openacs on 2002-06-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:01:22 [denshi]

talli, for you, how long has it been since college?

00:01:30 [talli]

3 years

00:01:32 [talli]

1999

00:02:09 [denshi]

remember the joy that is registration?

00:02:21 [talli]

in a moment of nostalgia, i am reading a slashdot comment list at mod-1

00:02:37 [talli]

they haven't computerized registration yet?

00:04:09 [denshi]

oh, they have. it just makes the torture a solitary process

00:04:36 [talli]

ah

00:05:37 [talli]

how many people that post to slashdot do you think are shills for the company the article is about?

00:08:36 [denshi]

a specific article, or all of them?

00:08:44 [Inquizitophylax]

woo

00:08:49 [Inquizitophylax]

It's thunderstorming

00:09:32 [Inquizitophylax]

Talli, how old are you if you don't mind me asking :)

00:09:45 [talli]

26

00:09:50 [Inquizitophylax]

daaaamn

00:09:54 [Inquizitophylax]

I was way off

00:09:55 [Inquizitophylax]

lol

00:10:01 [talli]

what did you think?

00:10:06 [Inquizitophylax]

late 30's ;)

00:10:10 [talli]

ah

00:10:27 [Inquizitophylax]

My bad

00:10:36 [talli]

i have an old soul

00:10:38 [Inquizitophylax]

Do I dare ask how old everyone else is?

00:10:51 [Inquizitophylax]

if ya tell me dave is 28 I'll kill ya all!

00:10:52 [Inquizitophylax]

;)

00:11:18 [Inquizitophylax]

btw...I'm in round 2 of Gentoo vs. Me

00:11:52 [Inquizitophylax]

I finally found a cd that doesn't have a corrupt 3rd stage tarball

00:12:04 [talli]

ah...

00:12:21 [talli]

yeah, stage3 really is the way to go, unless you're really a hardcore masochist

00:12:33 [Inquizitophylax]

I think I did it wrong again anyways

00:12:43 [Inquizitophylax]

So I think there will be a round 3 of Gentoo vs. Me

00:12:44 [talli]

there's something to be said for compilnig you're entire system from scratch, if i was trying to really learn and test the app

00:13:00 [talli]

it takes a long time to learn how to install that stuff

00:13:10 [talli]

at least, many times through the docs

00:13:10 [Inquizitophylax]

Gentoo?

00:13:13 [talli]

yeah

00:13:16 [Inquizitophylax]

heh

00:13:20 [denshi]

talli, I thought you were 30's too

00:13:29 [Inquizitophylax]

:-D

00:13:32 [talli]

but i found that i was really able to find the answer to all my questions through the website

00:13:35 [denshi]

you should try to act younger - try fucking up more

00:13:42 [Inquizitophylax]

yeah!

00:13:42 [talli]

as i said earlier, old soul

00:13:42 [Inquizitophylax]

LOL

00:14:06 [talli]

i fuck up plenty in my personal life

00:14:15 [talli]

notice it's 9 PM and i'm talking about gentoo isntalls?

00:14:15 [Inquizitophylax]

talli, I set up the gentoo box at work and I don't remember it being too hard

00:14:26 [talli]

oh yeah?

00:14:30 [Inquizitophylax]

welcome to Geeks 'R Us

00:14:30 [denshi]

English 322: 15-WAGNER'S RING OF NIBELUNG-W

00:14:33 [denshi]

take it?

00:14:35 [Inquizitophylax]

no

00:14:43 [talli]

well, maybe they haven't updated the docs for 1.2

00:14:47 [Inquizitophylax]

Try English 325

00:14:56 [talli]

no, don't take any Wagner, the anti-semitic bastard

00:15:03 [Inquizitophylax]

talli, I'm reading the install.txt on the 2nd virtual console

00:15:20 [talli]

what else is available in the english department

00:15:26 [denshi]

is he? I thought the nazis just co-opted his work

00:15:30 [Inquizitophylax]

I also don't remember having to recompile the kernel when I installed it at work

00:15:47 [talli]

Inquizitophylax: ah! i've never done it that way. i usually have a second computer and i read the install docs from the website

00:15:48 [Inquizitophylax]

denshi I put my money on English 325

00:15:53 [talli]

denshi: huge anti-semite

00:15:56 [Inquizitophylax]

Yeah that's what I did at work

00:15:59 [talli]

massive. really vitriolic

00:16:35 [Inquizitophylax]

I can do that, but I have only one monitor so I would have to KVM between the 2 (more annoying than holding Alt+Fx)

00:16:49 [Inquizitophylax]

Since I tend to leave scroll lock in the wrong position

00:17:19 [talli]

i read an article that one of the great heartbreaks of nietsche, who worshipped wagner, realized how massive an anti-semite wagner was

00:17:31 [denshi]

if I may knock people working wagner's side of the racial fence, it seems like a pretty stupid thing to dedicate one's lifework to.

00:18:02 [denshi]

well, nietzsche certainly wouldn't have liked how later Germans used him

00:18:02 [talli]

apparently, nietsche saw wagner as a mentor and frequently visited wagner and his wife

00:18:31 [talli]

until nietsche realized what an antisemite wagner was. and also probably when the syphilis began to eat his brain

00:19:03 [denshi]

*phylax darling, how is it you know UT's course numbers?

00:19:17 [talli]

no, he wouldn't. but he probably wouldn't have liked how most people use him, even the stoned philosophy undergrads who reference him over pizza

00:19:34 [denshi]

talli: around that time, his violently racist sister took over control of his estate and editing duties

00:19:49 [denshi]

the last books of his life were chopped up to fit her agenda

00:20:06 [talli]

yeah, that i heard too. she also hid alot of his work that railed against anti-semistism as well

00:20:32 [talli]

i guess being a aryan german anti-semite usually means you're a racist too, huh?

00:20:56 [Inquizitophylax]

denshi I randomly guess ;)

00:21:03 [Inquizitophylax]

Guessing gets you far in life

00:21:07 [Inquizitophylax]

:)

00:21:16 [talli]

denshi: what else is available in the english departmenet

00:21:20 [Inquizitophylax]

Unfortunately you can also fuck lots of things up that way too

00:21:38 [denshi]

sweet monkey jesus. $2654 for 12 credit hours

00:21:48 [Inquizitophylax]

talli there's one thing that really angers me about the install.txt

00:21:50 [talli]

of course, the fact that wagner was a piece of shit doesn't mean his artistic contribution isn't worth studying

00:21:58 [denshi]

no english this semester, unless an interesting course opens up

00:22:03 [Inquizitophylax]

About half way through they begin going "And the final step" ... for about 15 steps!

00:22:12 [talli]

i mean, roald dahl wasn't a nice man, neither pound or eliot, etc

00:22:26 [talli]

and wagner

00:22:29 [denshi]

I thought Eliot was just a wanker

00:22:58 [talli]

wagner's even been played in israel, whch perhaps isn't the team that one should get peace awards from...

00:23:09 [denshi]

anyway, I'd like to learn about the nordic/germanic fable system that wagner fed off of, like the Tristan/Isolde cycle

00:23:12 [talli]

no, eliot was a pound worshipper, who was...

00:23:32 [denshi]

yup. They should have deported Pound.

00:23:56 [talli]

i know nothing of that. i was vaguely aware that he liked vikings, but only because of the fat woman in horns

00:23:57 [Inquizitophylax]

alltell?

00:23:58 [Inquizitophylax]

ack

00:24:00 [Inquizitophylax]

alltel?

00:24:04 [Inquizitophylax]

paje?

00:24:13 [Inquizitophylax]

* Inquizitophylax cries ... he's gone...he's really really gone...

00:24:46 [talli]

denshi: have you studied nordic stuff?

00:25:11 [denshi]

no, except for a bit of Ibsen.

00:25:27 [denshi]

but I don't think that really counts

00:25:32 [talli]

ah

00:25:42 [Inquizitophylax]

talli ... as a quick side note

00:25:58 [Inquizitophylax]

for some unbeknown reason hd0 is my hdc

00:25:58 [talli]

yes?

00:26:10 [talli]

weird

00:26:20 [denshi]

okay, reg is done, so I'm going to go find a self-destructive social activity

00:26:22 [denshi]

l8r

00:26:45 [talli]

perhaps the boot partition is by default on the hd0?

00:26:48 [talli]

see ya denshi

00:27:36 [Inquizitophylax]

Beer!

00:27:38 [Inquizitophylax]

Bye denshi

00:27:46 [Inquizitophylax]

I don't know

00:28:06 [Inquizitophylax]

the only reasonable explanation I came up with is the fact that it goes by hard drives...not ide devices

00:28:42 [talli]

ah

00:28:55 [talli]

is it different on BSD?

00:30:00 [Inquizitophylax]

I don't think so

00:33:15 [Inquizitophylax]

weee

00:33:18 [Inquizitophylax]

the moment of truth

00:38:39 [Inquizitophylax]

wooo

00:38:50 [Inquizitophylax]

There go both of my installs :)

00:41:51 [Inquizitophylax]

Looks like I installed Grub but my Gentoo kernel is not proper so it kernel panics...and the Grub pointer to XP is wrong :)

00:44:08 [Inquizitophylax]

Not very good :-/

00:46:08 [Inquizitophylax]

kinda funny though

00:46:21 [Inquizitophylax]

talli, do you remember if you compiled your own kernel?

00:57:52 [talli]

Inquizitophylax: i did compile them

00:57:55 [talli]

i think you have to

00:58:00 [talli]

do you want to be able to burn cds?

00:58:03 [Inquizitophylax]

odd

00:58:07 [talli]

if you do, linux is kinda weird and screwy about it

00:58:21 [Inquizitophylax]

Eh, not my primary concern

00:58:28 [Inquizitophylax]

I just want to be able to boot without a kernel panic :)

00:58:29 [talli]

i don't know how BSD does it, but in linux you have to include SCSI emulation support

00:58:38 [Inquizitophylax]

yeah BSD is the same

00:58:45 [talli]

ah... the kernel panic. i think i know what you need t odo

00:59:07 [talli]

are you compiling the kernel in /usr/src/linux or /usr/src/linux-2.4.19?

00:59:16 [Inquizitophylax]

ummm

01:00:07 [Inquizitophylax]

talli?

01:00:09 [talli]

you're machine is scewred now

01:00:13 [talli]

i think you may need to reinstall

01:00:20 [Inquizitophylax]

yeah you think? :)

01:00:27 [Inquizitophylax]

I'm waaaaay ahead of you LOL

01:00:34 [talli]

make sure you're comilig in /usr/src/linux not the other one

01:01:07 [Inquizitophylax]

I did compile in /usr/src/linux

01:01:16 [talli]

- /usr/src/linux-2.4.19 consists of patches for the kernel in /usr/src/linux

01:01:28 [talli]

hm...

01:01:29 [Inquizitophylax]

I followed the docs ;)

01:01:59 [talli]

weird

01:13:01 [sash]

sash (~MIA@213-48-249-86.cro.cvx.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #openacs

01:13:45 [sash]

/usr/src/linux should be a symlink to /usr/src/2.4.xxx

01:15:18 [sash]

sash has left #openacs

01:18:56 [talli]

whoa

01:19:01 [talli]

where the hell did that come from?

01:19:21 [Inquizitophylax]

* Inquizitophylax is in #gentoo

01:19:26 [talli]

ah, ok

01:19:35 [Inquizitophylax]

But I don't think that's related to my question

01:28:07 [Inquizitophylax]

bah

01:28:09 [Inquizitophylax]

So close

01:28:10 [Inquizitophylax]

yet so far

01:42:10 [davb]

davb (dave@alb-24-58-162-82.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs

01:43:53 [davb]

hi there

01:43:57 [Inquizitophylax]

hey dave

01:44:09 [Inquizitophylax]

Gentoo 2 / Me 0

01:47:07 [davb]

heh

01:49:46 [sash]

sash (~MIA@213-48-145-4.cro.cvx.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #openacs

01:49:50 [davb]

Inquizitophylax: how old do you think i am?

01:49:58 [Inquizitophylax]

54 :p

01:50:06 [sash]

Inquizitophylax: Do you have the full kernel panic msg?

01:50:07 [davb]

hey!

01:50:23 [Inquizitophylax]

I can get it

01:50:40 [sash]

There's a thread: http://lists.gentoo.org/pipermail/gentoo-user/1980-January/013391.html

01:51:07 [Inquizitophylax]

sash, I don't have a browser on this box

01:51:21 [sash]

Er, no solutions there.

01:51:47 [sash]

Did you compile in support for whatever fs you're using?

01:52:43 [Inquizitophylax]

yeah I checked almost everything

01:53:16 [Inquizitophylax]

hang on

01:53:18 [sash]

Is your machine branded?

01:53:35 [Inquizitophylax]

yeah...branded by me :) "DON'T TOUCH"

01:53:43 [Inquizitophylax]

Parents don't listen though

01:53:49 [Inquizitophylax]

* Inquizitophylax shakes fist angrily

01:53:58 [sash]

I had a kernel panic on a Compaq when I pointed /boot at the wrong partition.

01:54:01 [sash]

Chill out.

01:54:16 [Inquizitophylax]

that might be the problem

01:54:23 [Inquizitophylax]

Because grub is misnumbering my stuff?

01:54:26 [Inquizitophylax]

Although

01:54:31 [sash]

They wiped up your mess when you were a baby.

01:54:52 [sash]

* sash hasn't used grub.

01:55:01 [davb]

talli: btw, cd recording requires scsi emulation in windows too :)

01:55:28 [Inquizitophylax]

* Inquizitophylax thwaps davb

01:56:16 [davb]

what?

01:56:26 [davb]

Inquizitophylax: i am 31 btw

01:56:28 [Inquizitophylax]

heh, I love arguing with people about things I know something about but not enough to get it to work

01:56:33 [Inquizitophylax]

Cool

01:57:40 [sash]

What corresponds to /boot in /etc/fstab?

01:58:29 [sash]

Och, you can't boot, hence get that info.

01:58:44 [Inquizitophylax]

it should be /hdc2

01:59:23 [Inquizitophylax]

I set up /hdc1 128mb for swap /hdc2 200mb for /boot /hdc3 5 gigs for root and /hdc4 8 gigs for /other

01:59:23 [sash]

Has that machine worked in the past running Linux.

01:59:27 [Inquizitophylax]

yes

01:59:39 [Inquizitophylax]

Worked fine with Mandrake and FreeBSD

01:59:57 [sash]

At this point, I'd be tempted to try lilo.

01:59:58 [Inquizitophylax]

And I do not plan on re-arranging the drives to suit someone especially when I know it can work

02:00:29 [Inquizitophylax]

but grub sees it

02:00:40 [davb]

grub is nicer i think...but I don't know how to configure it :)

02:00:49 [Inquizitophylax]

it doesn't seem too hard

02:00:52 [Inquizitophylax]

but their docs are wrong

02:01:11 [Inquizitophylax]

I mean, if you use common sense you can figure things out

02:01:47 [sash]

What do the good people on #gentoo suggest?

02:02:26 [sash]

What fs type is /boot?

02:02:36 [Inquizitophylax]

ext3

02:02:42 [sash]

Fine.

02:03:07 [sash]

What was the text of your kernel panic msg?

02:04:07 [Inquizitophylax]

I can try looking at it but it will lock up my KVM

02:04:52 [sash]

Why does it lock up?

02:05:15 [Inquizitophylax]

It's a KVM switch...I haven't gotten to the point of troubleshooting that

02:05:24 [sash]

Power cycle KVM?

02:05:51 [davb]

brb

02:05:53 [davb]

davb has quit ("Client Exiting")

02:08:33 [sash]

You obviously chose the correct CPU type?

02:09:08 [Inquizitophylax]

I should have

02:11:54 [sash]

OT: 200M for /boot! What have you got in there?

02:11:54 [oacs-chump]

Label OT not found.

02:13:10 [Inquizitophylax]

stuff

02:13:21 [Inquizitophylax]

Bah, I'm not going to bother with #gentoo

02:13:37 [Inquizitophylax]

I'm 2 steps ahead of them

02:14:12 [Inquizitophylax]

sash, if you want to walk me through a stage3 tarball install I would be very grateful

02:14:43 [Inquizitophylax]

Although I do not understand why this is even necessary as I did this in a few hours at work with 1.1a

02:14:56 [sash]

Is that a gentoo term?

02:15:02 [Inquizitophylax]

Granted the hard drive/cd-rom config was a little different

02:15:08 [Inquizitophylax]

what is a gentoo term?

02:15:21 [sash]

I'm not familiar w/ gentoo: stage3 tarball

02:15:25 [Inquizitophylax]

oh

02:15:48 [davb]

davb (~chatzilla@alb-24-58-161-27.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs

02:15:51 [Inquizitophylax]

They have 3 packages...a really really basic one...stage1 just comes with a kernel and some other small things

02:16:02 [Inquizitophylax]

a mediocre one that has been bootstrapped (?) or something

02:16:28 [Inquizitophylax]

and a much fuller one with sources and portage (app tarballs)

02:16:53 [Inquizitophylax]

At this point I would be very happy with being able to boot WinXP

02:17:03 [Inquizitophylax]

Grub, LILO, whatever

02:17:18 [sash]

For my needs Debian, RH, SuSE & Mandy are fine.

02:17:23 [davb]

use the boot disk...

02:17:58 [Inquizitophylax]

Sash, I have not tried Debian or suse in person but RH and Mandrake are a little too bloaty for me

02:17:58 [sash]

LFS to learn more about the system.

02:18:04 [davb]

i can't get grub or lilo to play nice with win2k, so I am using a floppy to boot into linux :)

02:18:08 [davb]

debian is nice.

02:18:19 [Inquizitophylax]

Gentoo is like LFS but faster

02:18:21 [davb]

you can do the net install and install practically nothing.

02:18:23 [sash]

That's why I've stripped RH.

02:18:55 [Inquizitophylax]

I dunno

02:18:57 [sash]

I think their evaluation single CDs were pretty small.

02:19:08 [Inquizitophylax]

I can probably just fix this all by installing Mandrake again

02:19:23 [Inquizitophylax]

but I want Gentoo

02:20:09 [sash]

Do the people on #gentoo don't have any suggestions?

02:20:19 [Inquizitophylax]

Not anything useful

02:20:23 [sash]

s/don't//

02:20:32 [sash]

Drat. That's weird.

02:20:57 [Inquizitophylax]

I _think_ I can get Gentoo up and running now

02:21:08 [Inquizitophylax]

but this won't help my WinXP thing

02:21:37 [Inquizitophylax]

hrm

02:22:11 [davb]

you can use the winxp menu to boot linux i think. supposedly the win2k menu will work, but I haven't gotten it to work.

02:23:33 [sash]

Inquizitophylax: Have you asked #linpeople?

02:24:13 [Inquizitophylax]

no

02:24:20 [Inquizitophylax]

I'm going to fix my XP install first

02:25:43 [sash]

IIRC, my RH install was around 500M.

02:32:07 [Inquizitophylax]

gurgle..

02:32:12 [Inquizitophylax]

I can almost fix XP

02:32:31 [davb]

* davb goes to play morrowind

02:34:47 [Inquizitophylax]

heh

02:34:51 [Inquizitophylax]

you got that running well yet?

02:34:54 [davb]

or not

02:34:56 [davb]

nah.

02:35:14 [davb]

that was neverwinter nights, which my video card is too slow for.

02:35:35 [davb]

brb

02:35:37 [davb]

davb has quit ("ChatZilla 0.8.7 [Mozilla rv:1.0.0/20020530]")

02:47:20 [Inquizitophylax]

sash, you still there?

02:50:59 [Inquizitophylax]

I got WinXP going

02:51:49 [sash]

Yes

02:52:18 [sash]

Does XP use NTFS?

02:56:03 [jim]

re.

02:56:42 [Inquizitophylax]

yes

02:56:44 [Inquizitophylax]

hey Jim

02:56:48 [Inquizitophylax]

Guess what

02:56:59 [jim]

"what"

02:57:00 [Inquizitophylax]

And yes, I compiled NTFS read-only support

02:57:03 [Inquizitophylax]

lol

02:57:04 [jim]

did I win? :)

02:57:11 [Inquizitophylax]

yes yes you did

02:57:15 [Inquizitophylax]

you won a spanking from paje

02:57:23 [Inquizitophylax]

on wait...he's busy with talli

02:57:30 [jim]

paje, again!

02:57:34 [Inquizitophylax]

:)

02:57:39 [Inquizitophylax]

They went to a hotel

02:57:43 [jim]

oh :)

02:58:03 [jim]

hey, yeah, no paje

02:58:16 [Inquizitophylax]

sash I compiled ntfs read support into the kernel but that shoudn't matter getting grub to boot XP

02:58:36 [Inquizitophylax]

anyway, I stopped off at the camera store yesterday to pick up a 49-55mm step-up ring

02:58:36 [jim]

ok, let's start over...

02:58:44 [jim]

<Inquizitophylax> hey Jim

02:58:44 [jim]

<Inquizitophylax> Guess what

02:58:46 [Inquizitophylax]

and inquire about my camera as a side note

02:58:50 [jim]

I dunno :)

02:59:16 [Inquizitophylax]

He told me the camera is not ready yet..and it should be within this week

02:59:27 [Inquizitophylax]

I gave him my cell phone to call

02:59:33 [jim]

cool...

02:59:35 [Inquizitophylax]

So he called me today this morning...

02:59:58 [Inquizitophylax]

Then he told me that the camera is not done yet but his buddy at Olympus can get a new one sent for 50$

03:00:16 [jim]

hmm...

03:00:25 [Inquizitophylax]

I said ok but now that I think about that it's a bit odd that they are offering me a new camera for 50$

03:00:42 [jim]

well, I guess they keep the old one?

03:00:47 [Inquizitophylax]

i would guess so

03:00:57 [Inquizitophylax]

otherwise it would be an excellent deal for me :-)

03:01:03 [Inquizitophylax]

Two cameras for 50$ and some shipping charges

03:01:04 [Inquizitophylax]

lol

03:01:31 [jim]

shipping?? I thought they were within blocks of you and the camera store...

03:01:39 [Inquizitophylax]

They are

03:01:47 [jim]

but yeah, that would be a good deal

03:01:49 [Inquizitophylax]

but I think he sent it in via UPS and UPS back to the camera store

03:01:49 [sash]

Inquizitophylax: With lilo and my Win98, I have to set map-drive = 0x[0-9][0-9] to = 0x[0-9][0-9]

03:02:10 [jim]

heh, ups kickback :)

03:02:23 [Inquizitophylax]

Sash...I remember I had to do something simiar with Mandrake and Win2K install

03:02:43 [Inquizitophylax]

Mandrake just kinda knew

03:03:03 [jim]

map-drive = 0x[0-9][0-9] to = 0x[0-9][0-9]

03:03:10 [jim]

that's identrical!

03:03:32 [sash]

jim: lol. 80 to 81

03:04:11 [Inquizitophylax]

yup

03:04:18 [sash]

Then underneath, you ditto map-drive and to, swapping the settings.

03:04:19 [Inquizitophylax]

that's exactly what i had to do

03:04:22 [jim]

is that scsi?

03:04:32 [sash]

Yes.

03:04:33 [Inquizitophylax]

nah, it's like bios drive remaps

03:04:36 [Inquizitophylax]

or something like that

03:04:40 [Inquizitophylax]

I dunno

03:04:56 [Inquizitophylax]

i'm going to solve my problem soon

03:05:00 [sash]

I'm using SCSI. Inquizitophylax is right.

03:05:04 [Inquizitophylax]

I'm just going to buy removable racks

03:05:15 [jim]

could be, I just remember that from when I was an all-scsi no-ide kinda guy :)

03:05:21 [Inquizitophylax]

Then I just pop in the right drive

03:05:26 [sash]

Use something that works and won't take up much of your time.

03:05:55 [jim]

I can't afford that for drive sizes unless I could build up a separate controller thing

03:05:57 [sash]

You can spend the rest of your life building & patching kernels alons.

03:06:08 [Inquizitophylax]

Once the government gives me my money I will order removable racks

03:06:11 [sash]

SCA?

03:06:30 [Inquizitophylax]

jim, so what do you think about that 50$ for a camera thing

03:06:42 [Inquizitophylax]

He wasn't pushy about it...he just told me that was a proposition for him

03:06:45 [jim]

well, is it an upgrade?

03:06:50 [Inquizitophylax]

I don't know

03:07:00 [Inquizitophylax]

depends if I get a brand new camera without any problems...then yes

03:07:07 [Inquizitophylax]

but then there are all these caveats

03:07:13 [Inquizitophylax]

refurbished drive...

03:07:14 [jim]

hmm... is your original in good shape?

03:07:22 [Inquizitophylax]

It was in decent shape

03:07:34 [Inquizitophylax]

I could have kept shooting with it

03:07:44 [jim]

(ok, yes I know you sent it in for problems... so I guess there were problems)

03:07:46 [Inquizitophylax]

It's not that hard to fix warm pixels with Photoshop

03:08:06 [jim]

some pixels were out?

03:08:14 [jim]

or nearly so?

03:08:18 [sash]

Is it under guarantee?

03:08:20 [Inquizitophylax]

they were the wrong color

03:08:27 [jim]

sash: yeah

03:09:17 [Inquizitophylax]

If I get a camera in a box with all the accessories I am in good shape

03:09:49 [sash]

I recall a chap who got water into his camera. When it had dried somewhat, he was getting some funky effects.

03:09:54 [Inquizitophylax]

I can sell most of them and recover probably over the 50$ I paid (I have all the stuff less lens cap + camera strap from the one I sent it in)

03:09:59 [jim]

Inquizitophylax: for your own personal side, total up all costs of the camera you had into it and compare to what you would get (and get them to tell you what the deal is exactly)

03:10:18 [Inquizitophylax]

jim, I don't follow

03:10:33 [sash]

http://www.wired.com/news/gizmos/0,1452,51205,00.html

03:10:33 [oacs-chump]

A: http://www.wired.com/news/gizmos/0,1452,51205,00.html from sash

03:10:40 [jim]

first, what do you have into the camera so far?

03:10:50 [jim]

what did you spend, total?

03:10:52 [Inquizitophylax]

I don't know...as long as I get a new/functional unit with a lens cap and a camera strap as soon as possible I will be happy

03:11:00 [Inquizitophylax]

LOL

03:11:04 [Inquizitophylax]

750$ for one

03:11:05 [jim]

well, you don't have to say :) but let's call it I.cost

03:11:15 [Inquizitophylax]

432$ for the second one

03:11:24 [jim]

which one was bad?

03:11:29 [Inquizitophylax]

750$

03:11:36 [jim]

the big cost...

03:11:37 [Inquizitophylax]

but it came with about 500$ worth of accessories

03:11:42 [Inquizitophylax]

which I still have

03:11:50 [Inquizitophylax]

a B-300 lens which sells for about 250$ on eBay

03:11:59 [Inquizitophylax]

a WCON-08 lens which sells for about 150$

03:12:04 [jim]

that's a lot of money you're talking about here...

03:12:06 [Inquizitophylax]

4 filters

03:12:24 [jim]

you -definitely- need to know what the deal is going to be before agreeing to it

03:12:33 [sash]

sash has quit ("Goodnight")

03:12:41 [Inquizitophylax]

I think it's too late since I think I already agreed to it this morning

03:12:51 [jim]

ok...

03:13:02 [jim]

you could still try to find out tho

03:13:04 [Inquizitophylax]

I can go there tomorrow morning and talk to the guy

03:13:11 [Inquizitophylax]

But what do I ask

03:13:34 [jim]

have him ask the contact what exactly you'd be receiving

03:13:34 [Inquizitophylax]

It's not like I walk up and be like.."yeah, why am I paying 50$ for a new camera to replace the one I bought that was still under a warranty"

03:14:07 [jim]

well, at this point I think the conversations should be as friendly as possible

03:14:18 [Inquizitophylax]

yeah

03:14:30 [Inquizitophylax]

I've made mistakes before and paid for them

03:14:40 [Inquizitophylax]

Lessons learned not to make them again :)

03:14:47 [Inquizitophylax]

eg...85$ parking ticket for parking in a fire zone

03:15:05 [Inquizitophylax]

No more parking unless I'm in between two yellow lines for me

03:15:06 [jim]

did you mention the pixel problem on the list of things wrong?

03:15:10 [Inquizitophylax]

yes

03:15:16 [Inquizitophylax]

He gave me a receipt with the list

03:15:20 [jim]

ok

03:15:22 [Inquizitophylax]

well

03:15:24 [Inquizitophylax]

partial list

03:15:29 [Inquizitophylax]

he left off the less important things

03:15:39 [Inquizitophylax]

cleaning and rubber grip

03:15:55 [Inquizitophylax]

but the pixel mapping and firmware upgrade were on it

03:16:30 [jim]

mapping? does that mean you'd keep the pixel matrix and they'd try to map bad pixels?

03:16:34 [Inquizitophylax]

One of the things I'm going to check is the serial number of the camera I am getting back

03:16:59 [Inquizitophylax]

To make sure I'm not paying 50$ to get my old camera back

03:17:08 [jim]

that would be good... if you pay the $50 and get the same camera, something would be wrong there

03:17:20 [Inquizitophylax]

And I'm also going to come back and ask him to re-issue me a receipt with a new date and new serial number

03:17:59 [Inquizitophylax]

or if not the new date at least the new serial number

03:18:04 [jim]

I'd take care of that same session as when you pick up the camera

03:18:16 [Inquizitophylax]

The receipt?

03:18:59 [jim]

receipt/sn, yeah,,, he'd probably want to get you all done as quickly as possible

03:19:11 [Inquizitophylax]

yeah I guess

03:19:32 [jim]

is the store large, and large volume?

03:19:39 [Inquizitophylax]

Define large

03:20:00 [Inquizitophylax]

Best Buy large... no

03:20:28 [Inquizitophylax]

it's about Starbucks larg

03:20:29 [Inquizitophylax]

e

03:21:03 [jim]

ok, are there always lots of camera customers in there? do they do fairly large volume?

03:21:15 [jim]

also, is your guy the store mgr?

03:21:32 [jim]

it sounds like he's making decisions

03:22:23 [Inquizitophylax]

I don't think he's a store manager

03:22:31 [Inquizitophylax]

There's usually one or two when I wander in

03:22:50 [Inquizitophylax]

Either people looking at the camera or getting/dropping off their film to get developed

03:23:05 [Inquizitophylax]

The store has been there for at least 7 years :) I've lived next to it this long

03:23:24 [jim]

so maybe not so high volume wrt the cameras themselves

03:23:36 [Inquizitophylax]

?

03:23:51 [Inquizitophylax]

wrt...?

03:24:00 [jim]

with respect to

03:24:07 [Inquizitophylax]

yeah

03:24:21 [Inquizitophylax]

it's like a hobby store

03:24:24 [jim]

looks like their main business is film and developing

03:24:39 [Inquizitophylax]

they do picture retouching, they sell cameras and stuff and they develop it

03:24:54 [Inquizitophylax]

no, I would think cameras is their main business

03:24:57 [Inquizitophylax]

hold on

03:25:21 [Inquizitophylax]

www.splitimagephoto.com

03:26:06 [Inquizitophylax]

That's their website

03:26:52 [jim]

hmmm! you may have a openacs build opportunity!

03:26:58 [Inquizitophylax]

lol

03:27:10 [Inquizitophylax]

Yeah i've been thinking about rebuilding their webpage

03:27:14 [jim]

have him look at photo.net

03:27:27 [Inquizitophylax]

but I don't know how well I can do with it and what's in it for me

03:27:42 [jim]

there'd have to be something in it for you

03:28:04 [Inquizitophylax]

plus...I don't think they would be willing to shell out for co-location of a server that can handle a database and aolserver

03:28:15 [jim]

do you have an openacs build of your own?

03:28:20 [Inquizitophylax]

nope

03:28:25 [jim]

who houses their website?

03:28:30 [Inquizitophylax]

No clue

03:28:32 [Inquizitophylax]

hang on

03:28:44 [Inquizitophylax]

I'll look stuff up

03:29:41 [jim]

he points at a student link below... and a place that says "click here" but it's not clickable

03:30:12 [Inquizitophylax]

appears to be aitcom.net

03:30:30 [Inquizitophylax]

Don't get me started on that website :-)

03:31:37 [Inquizitophylax]

It need a good overhaul

03:31:52 [Inquizitophylax]

I would think php and mysql would work much better for them

03:32:10 [jim]

perhaps

03:32:12 [Inquizitophylax]

The initial investment would be cheaper although it would require more coding

03:32:35 [jim]

except mysql still doesn't do multisession well afaik

03:33:09 [jim]

orackle is obviously out of the question here

03:33:27 [jim]

brb

03:33:29 [Inquizitophylax]

yes but it's much easier to find someone who will host a mysql db rather than a box where one can install aolserver, oacs and PostreSQL

03:34:13 [Inquizitophylax]

There's quiet a few places that can use an overhaul in terms of websites

03:34:42 [Inquizitophylax]

Cameta Camera (look it up on google) could also use an overhaul...Their website is more functional and more appealing to the eye but content presentation is odd

03:36:35 [jim]

right, I forgot that a lot of these sites are outsourced

03:37:37 [Inquizitophylax]

what, OACS sites or the ones I told you about?

03:38:02 [jim]

splitimage

03:38:09 [jim]

btw, what's the guy's name?

03:38:27 [Inquizitophylax]

Lyndon

03:38:46 [jim]

his pic is at that link

03:39:29 [Inquizitophylax]

yeah I know

03:39:35 [Inquizitophylax]

I've been to the website

03:39:41 [Inquizitophylax]

prior to today

03:39:47 [jim]

the info doesn't attribute anything special about him... so, probably just a sales guy

03:43:03 [Inquizitophylax]

yep

03:43:39 [jim]

ever seem like when you're in the store, you're competing with other customers for his time?

03:44:09 [jim]

still trying to get a feel for their volume and how busy they are

03:46:06 [jim]

does he seem busy when you're on the phone with him?

03:46:41 [Inquizitophylax]

yes

03:47:06 [Inquizitophylax]

I usually wait for the previous customer to be helped before I go bye bye

03:47:11 [Inquizitophylax]

I mean I get helped

03:47:31 [jim]

well, if that's the case, he will want to take care of as much as he can in a single session...

03:47:53 [Inquizitophylax]

I suppose so

03:48:10 [Inquizitophylax]

I'm just trying to figure out why this 50$ for a new camera offer was made (supposedly from a guy at Olympus)

03:48:26 [Inquizitophylax]

I can see it make sense in two ways

03:48:56 [Inquizitophylax]

1. The Olympus guy is trying to do the guy a favor by selling him a new camera so that he has a brand new camera that might last longer....

03:49:21 [jim]

any receipt issue, any other issues, get em out of the way... when you go in to talk to him without altering any deals (buying stuff, otherwise conducting business), go in during idle periods, etc

03:49:42 [Inquizitophylax]

2. The Olympus people are very very busy with repairs (i have seen a few posts on dpreview.com about this so this is not that unbelievable)

03:50:09 [Inquizitophylax]

so it might be cheaper for them to grab overstock and send it to someone for 50$ instead of having to go through the whole repair camera deal...

03:50:20 [Inquizitophylax]

I think it's something like a 200$ flat fee for just opening the camera

03:50:31 [jim]

if (2), it makes more sense for them to actually honor the warranty...

03:50:47 [Inquizitophylax]

What do you mean?

03:50:50 [Inquizitophylax]

To repair my camera?

03:51:06 [jim]

if the camera is under warranty, they choose whether to repair or replace...

03:51:13 [Inquizitophylax]

yeah

03:51:20 [Inquizitophylax]

Right..but why would I have to pay 50$ for this then?

03:51:25 [jim]

if it's in their interest to replace, they should honor the warranty

03:51:26 [Inquizitophylax]

That's what I get caught up on...

03:52:05 [Inquizitophylax]

camera sent in under a warranty is being replaced for 50$...

03:52:14 [Inquizitophylax]

Usually things get replaced for free

03:52:20 [Inquizitophylax]

At least in my opinion

03:52:49 [Inquizitophylax]

There's always a reason #3

03:52:58 [jim]

maybe think about doing this... see if you can get the original deal (under warranty repair) and also get the missing list items put back on the list

03:53:16 [Inquizitophylax]

He's getting my camera replaced by Olympus for free...and he just wants to tack on a 50$ charge to make some money

03:53:19 [jim]

then if they opt to replace, it should be under the warranty

03:53:42 [Inquizitophylax]

I made sure to ask him about a warranty and he said yes I still get a warranty

03:54:06 [jim]

if you like what he's doing for you, then you should make it clear you're up for helping him make money, if (3) is the case

03:54:35 [Inquizitophylax]

hmm?

03:54:39 [Inquizitophylax]

Damn your yoda speak

03:54:53 [Inquizitophylax]

Inquizitophylax is now known as Yoda

03:55:00 [Yoda]

Yoda is now known as NotSoYoda

03:55:09 [jim]

but if (3) is the case, then he's not actually taking that good care of you...

03:55:09 [NotSoYoda]

backwards speak you do

03:55:23 [NotSoYoda]

Thank you..much more legible

03:55:27 [jim]

I'm a forth implementor from wayy back :)

03:55:44 [jim]

I was building forth systems in like 1979 L(

03:55:45 [NotSoYoda]

It still doesn't give you permission to talk like yoda unless you are a jedi

03:55:46 [jim]

:)

03:56:09 [jim]

L( is too close to :)

03:56:16 [NotSoYoda]

yes, but if (3) is the case why would he sell me equipment worth over 1000$ for 750$?

03:56:33 [jim]

discontinued closeouts?

03:56:42 [NotSoYoda]

Not to mention sell me a 240$ filter for 10$

03:56:53 [NotSoYoda]

no, it was his personal stuff

03:57:05 [NotSoYoda]

The camera and lenses were his pesonal

03:57:18 [NotSoYoda]

He just gave me a store receipt (even though he's not technically supposed to)

03:57:25 [jim]

NotSoda: hmm, well seems like he wants to upgrade and also -seems- like he's trying to be fair

03:57:36 [jim]

so (3) seems less likely

03:57:43 [NotSoYoda]

yes

03:57:49 [NotSoYoda]

Do you see my dillemma

03:58:12 [NotSoYoda]

I mean if he was a crook, he would charge me 1000$ for the lenses and the camera (and I'd still be getting a good deal)

03:58:21 [NotSoYoda]

And then add a 50$ thing for repairs

03:58:26 [jim]

hmm, suddenly I'm humgry for pickle slices

03:58:28 [NotSoYoda]

not to mention no warranty and no receipt

03:58:32 [NotSoYoda]

damn you

03:58:35 [NotSoYoda]

did you have to say that

03:58:41 [NotSoYoda]

I want some too :-D but none here

03:58:53 [jim]

well, you started it :P

03:59:00 [jim]

you said DILLemma :P

03:59:17 [NotSoYoda]

So #3 seems very unlikely

03:59:26 [jim]

yeah

03:59:36 [NotSoYoda]

But then where does this 50$ come from?

03:59:57 [jim]

it seems like he's trying to be honest, and the store is busy enough that they're doing a fairly good volume

04:00:01 [NotSoYoda]

I suppose I could ask him what the 50$ was for but I think that would be kind of rude

04:00:33 [NotSoYoda]

he's a good guy...I think he's risked his butt for his and my benefit more than once already

04:01:09 [NotSoYoda]

receipt for camera, 10$ for an IR filter (he knew that the filter he sold me was at least 40$)

04:01:14 [jim]

ok, then let's factor him out of the equation for a sec:

04:01:31 [NotSoYoda]

Ok..Then there's Olympus

04:01:34 [jim]

looking at this $750 camera by itself,

04:01:49 [jim]

let's factor them out too, just leaving you

04:01:51 [NotSoYoda]

you can't put whole 750$ to the camera

04:02:13 [jim]

so what do you think you spent on the items you sent in to olympus?

04:02:27 [NotSoYoda]

At the time I bought the camera I was going to buy it for 500$ (tax & s&h incl.) from CompUSA

04:02:44 [jim]

ok

04:03:01 [NotSoYoda]

Infact, at a later date did buy a 2nd identical camera for 432$ (they had a 399$ sale)

04:03:02 [jim]

so that's essentially retail

04:03:24 [jim]

so the $33 was tax?

04:03:30 [NotSoYoda]

yeah

04:04:08 [NotSoYoda]

if I had to go buy this camera right now, I would expect to pay about 550$ for it

04:04:12 [NotSoYoda]

Assuming I could find one

04:04:48 [jim]

ok, so look at it this way...

04:04:53 [jim]

take his deal,

04:05:03 [jim]

add $50 to the price

04:05:07 [jim]

$800

04:05:18 [jim]

look at all you got, plus camera is new

04:05:22 [jim]

worth it?

04:06:07 [NotSoYoda]

oh yeah

04:06:28 [jim]

plus, you might be able to get a warranty on it

04:06:31 [NotSoYoda]

An extended warranty would go for 50$ for 3 years from compusa

04:06:53 [NotSoYoda]

The thing that bothers me about the transaction is not the amount

04:06:54 [jim]

not bad given the amount of money involved

04:06:56 [NotSoYoda]

but why

04:07:05 [jim]

true...

04:07:08 [jim]

there is that.

04:07:26 [jim]

the only thing we have now is possibilities

04:07:26 [NotSoYoda]

For all I know, every time there are prourn:s with my camera I might be getting charged an x amount of money

04:07:46 [NotSoYoda]

Doesn't seem like there is a warranty after all does it ;)

04:08:06 [jim]

well... you have a point

04:08:25 [NotSoYoda]

It might be easier (albeit slightly longer) for me to bypass this grey market deal and go with my receipt and camera straight to Olympus

04:08:54 [NotSoYoda]

Which I probably would have done in the first place, had I been successful in finding it and Lyndon said he could get my camera in and out faster...It will be 2 weeks tomorrow

04:09:01 [jim]

so -politely- see what you can do about doing the sn/date/receipt thing

04:09:08 [NotSoYoda]

That's my plan

04:09:26 [jim]

then register the camera like you just bought it

04:09:48 [NotSoYoda]

I'm going to write down the s/n..then bring in the original and ask him to make me a new one

04:10:09 [NotSoYoda]

Well, then there's this comment he made to me: "Don't fill out the registration card...Just bring it back and I will take care of it"

04:10:31 [jim]

ahh

04:10:36 [NotSoYoda]

Technically, I don't need to fill out the warranty card to get repair service

04:10:39 [jim]

he wants to be the middleman

04:10:58 [NotSoYoda]

At least that's what the Oly website portrayed

04:11:16 [NotSoYoda]

Although..on the warranty card it does say that the card has to be mailed in within 10 days or there will be no warranty

04:11:56 [jim]

ok, if there will be a warranty reg card, this will be a not-OEM, but retail, package

04:12:08 [NotSoYoda]

right

04:12:30 [NotSoYoda]

well, now i have a warranty card for the old serial number camera which pretty much forces me to go to him for service/help

04:12:40 [NotSoYoda]

Assuming I get just the OEM camera

04:13:12 [NotSoYoda]

I just want my camera back without problems and a warranty so I can go take pictures

04:13:40 [NotSoYoda]

NotSoYoda is now known as Sleepiephylax

04:14:10 [jim]

this is a digital camera with SLR lens capability?

04:15:11 [Sleepiephylax]

SLR-Like

04:15:32 [Sleepiephylax]

It doesn't have interchangeable lenses but it has threading for add-on accessory lenses

04:15:47 [Sleepiephylax]

He sold me a B-300 which is impossible to find with the camera

04:15:48 [jim]

so, forexample, you could buy a standard olympus-mount long lens?

04:15:52 [Sleepiephylax]

no

04:16:10 [Sleepiephylax]

I can buy threaded lenses and add them to the built-in one

04:16:29 [Sleepiephylax]

Eg. B-300, WCON-09, 49mm filters (others with step-up/down rings)

04:16:30 [jim]

so the builtin one is not meant to be replaced...

04:16:34 [Sleepiephylax]

no

04:16:50 [Sleepiephylax]

it's very similar to IS series cameras from Olympus

04:17:00 [Sleepiephylax]

wait

04:17:18 [Sleepiephylax]

www.pbase.com/psychephylax/

04:17:50 [Sleepiephylax]

www.pbase.com/psychephylax/digital_tools is the gallery of the camera

04:17:54 [Sleepiephylax]

It's the big long lens one

04:19:15 [jim]

that's a nice looking thing

04:19:19 [Sleepiephylax]

yeah

04:19:29 [Sleepiephylax]

It's like a Shelby Cobra

04:19:33 [Sleepiephylax]

a rare breed :)

04:20:12 [jim]

seem like each of you want to keep the other happy...

04:20:30 [Sleepiephylax]

10x Optical Zoom, Image stabilization (canon pro90 is the next closest with canon slr cameras being the majority of the IS market and they all retail for 4500$ lens + camera body)

04:20:44 [Sleepiephylax]

2.1 megapixels is the only downfall of the camera

04:20:50 [jim]

I would present this to him, give him a chance to explain/adjust

04:21:02 [Sleepiephylax]

Aside from that I don't see me needing any other camera

04:21:19 [Sleepiephylax]

present what to him and how do I do it in a way that's not offending

04:21:29 [Sleepiephylax]

I don't want to make it seem as if I am suspecting him of any wrongdoing

04:21:53 [Sleepiephylax]

at least not until I am 100% sure

04:22:25 [jim]

howbout this: tell him you were wondering about how things would go with the warranty in his name... what would the process be

04:22:54 [Sleepiephylax]

Well, when he sent it in...he told me he was going to tell the Oly rep that it is his personal camera

04:22:56 [jim]

(btw, camera being -new- and of this kind of quality seems really good)

04:23:10 [Sleepiephylax]

yoda speak! ;P

04:23:18 [Sleepiephylax]

* Sleepiephylax dials up yodatranslate.com

04:24:05 [Sleepiephylax]

This camera used to retail for some obsurd cost of like 1200$

04:24:16 [jim]

(way the by , camera new being good seems. really!)

04:25:00 [Sleepiephylax]

I dunno

04:25:06 [Sleepiephylax]

I just want a functional camera back

04:25:09 [Sleepiephylax]

as soon as possible

04:25:10 [davb]

davb (~chatzilla@alb-24-58-161-27.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs

04:25:18 [jim]

yo davb

04:25:24 [davb]

hi jim

04:25:29 [Sleepiephylax]

* Sleepiephylax attacks davb with a deck of pointy cards

04:25:39 [davb]

hi Sleepiephylax

04:25:42 [Sleepiephylax]

on guard!

04:25:49 [Sleepiephylax]

* Sleepiephylax slashes some hairs off davb

04:25:52 [davb]

whats up with the cards?

04:25:58 [Sleepiephylax]

I dunno

04:26:04 [Sleepiephylax]

It's 1:30 am and I am sleepy

04:26:07 [davb]

it is?

04:26:10 [davb]

aigh

04:26:21 [Sleepiephylax]

g'nite :)

04:26:23 [Sleepiephylax]

LOL

04:26:26 [Sleepiephylax]

dave

04:26:28 [Sleepiephylax]

read the long

04:26:29 [Sleepiephylax]

ack

04:26:33 [Sleepiephylax]

log...what's your opinion

04:26:46 [jim]

the long log is long!

04:27:06 [Sleepiephylax]

All this wong is making me hungry for chinese food

04:27:54 [Sleepiephylax]

Off topic: Diet Lemon Coke is better than Diet Lemon Pepsi

04:28:03 [Sleepiephylax]

And I hate Coke and love regular Pepsi

04:28:10 [davb]

use a real lemon and regular coke/pepsi.

04:28:19 [davb]

the other stuff tastes like lemon pledge

04:28:23 [Sleepiephylax]

That would be just too logical and easy

04:28:24 [jim]

I thought you said "diet lemon cake"

04:28:53 [Sleepiephylax]

Dave, you reading the long log?

04:29:22 [Sleepiephylax]

M*A*S*H

04:29:45 [jim]

Mustard Again Shell?

04:29:59 [Sleepiephylax]

The music from that show always depresses me

04:29:59 [Sleepiephylax]

oh, oops..I didn't finish

04:30:14 [Sleepiephylax]

*E*D P*O*T*A*T*O*E*S

04:30:24 [jim]

oh L:P

04:30:36 [Sleepiephylax]

* Sleepiephylax misses his camera

04:30:44 [Sleepiephylax]

It's IR sensitive

04:30:59 [Sleepiephylax]

I need it back so I can do IR photography and write my camera/filter comparison

04:31:11 [jim]

* jim embarks on another service

04:31:18 [Sleepiephylax]

To get me my camera?

04:31:26 [jim]

this time with a data model :)

04:31:28 [Sleepiephylax]

Or find pickle slices in the fridge?

04:31:32 [Sleepiephylax]

Is she hot?

04:31:44 [Sleepiephylax]

I wouldn't mind getting hooked up with a model

04:31:49 [Sleepiephylax]

does she have any friends that are single?

04:32:14 [jim]

select data from model where peer is related;

04:32:24 [jim]

(no rows found)

04:32:36 [Sleepiephylax]

Oh, you're cheating

04:32:42 [Sleepiephylax]

it's only 10:30 there

04:32:54 [Sleepiephylax]

Must be West Coast

04:32:57 [jim]

yep

04:33:03 [jim]

sf bay area

04:33:12 [Sleepiephylax]

coool

04:33:15 [Sleepiephylax]

I wanna visit cali

04:33:31 [Sleepiephylax]

actually, I just want to go on a cross country road trip

04:33:37 [jim]

there is always linuxexpo

04:33:39 [Sleepiephylax]

Anyone know if they rent RVs?

04:33:50 [jim]

probably

04:33:54 [jim]

dunno for sure

04:33:55 [Sleepiephylax]

That would rock

04:34:01 [Sleepiephylax]

I can rent an RV for a month

04:34:04 [Sleepiephylax]

and go driving :)

04:34:31 [jim]

probably on a 6 month lease minimum (typical basis)

04:34:51 [jim]

lessee...

04:34:54 [Sleepiephylax]

cool

04:35:03 [jim]

ok, here's my service:

04:35:09 [Sleepiephylax]

I looked it up on Google

04:35:18 [Sleepiephylax]

Does it cost 50$?

04:35:22 [Sleepiephylax]

And I want all the info upfront

04:36:08 [jim]

John, Paul, George and Ringo are in a band, but some of them moved to different parts of the world (one's in New York, rest stayed in UK)

04:36:34 [jim]

so to keep in touch and get things together for gigs, they come to the site and register...

04:37:04 [Sleepiephylax]

Sweet..It's about 750-1000$ per week to rent an RV

04:37:06 [jim]

they want to keep track of set lists and arrangements of tunes

04:37:35 [Sleepiephylax]

So...how long would it take to drive from NY to Arizona to washington to Florida back to NY?

04:37:57 [davb]

ow, you guys are giving me a headache.

04:38:08 [jim]

depends on how many times the wheel turned during the trip :)

04:38:11 [Sleepiephylax]

Actually I want to do a figure 8 starting in NY --> Maine --> Arizona --> Washington --> Florida -->NY

04:38:49 [jim]

wow, that's a big flat 8!

04:39:08 [Sleepiephylax]

yeah

04:39:19 [Sleepiephylax]

I would alter it to hit some interesting spots

04:39:22 [Sleepiephylax]

eg. New Orleans

04:39:26 [davb]

BTW hub.org has reasonable hosting for OpenACS

04:39:58 [davb]

i'll be back tomorrow.

04:40:16 [davb]

davb has quit ("ChatZilla 0.8.7 [Mozilla rv:1.0.0/20020530]")

04:40:58 [jim]

so, John comes on the site and adds the songs Michele and Birthday to the set list for the Nov 11th, 1111 gig

04:41:09 [Sleepiephylax]

Reasonable?

04:41:25 [Sleepiephylax]

Jeez...their bandwidth rates are horrid

04:41:25 [jim]

(ancient history now, but it was musically definitive :)

04:41:42 [Sleepiephylax]

Jim, can you hold that thought until tomorrow? ;)

04:41:48 [Sleepiephylax]

* Sleepiephylax can't comprehend

04:42:09 [Sleepiephylax]

Sleepiephylax is now known as Sleep

04:42:09 [jim]

well, I wanna put it into the channel log and copy it into a design doc

04:42:20 [Sleep]

Sleep is now known as NotHere

04:42:55 [NotHere]

As a side note

04:43:22 [NotHere]

I would like to make a nice website for:üI„ñmom's job, Split Image Photo, Cameta Camera, local bowling alley

04:43:51 [NotHere]

I know that this is a wrong place to ask too :) since you guys will all say use OACS

04:44:14 [NotHere]

NotHere is now known as Spork_

04:44:16 [jim]

George, Paul and Ringo get email notifications of the new songs, and respond by learning the tunes... when they have done so, they come back to the site and say they know the tunes... all get notifications, and they arrange a rehersal session

04:44:57 [Spork_]

Spork_ is now known as poon

04:45:02 [poon]

bbtomorrow

04:45:05 [jim]

ok

04:45:07 [jim]

:)

04:45:09 [poon]

:)

04:45:14 [jim]

good luck on the camera :)

04:45:24 [poon]

Yeah, I'll tell you how it turns out

04:45:28 [poon]

Hopefully really well

04:45:43 [poon]

if I get a new box I won't complain

04:46:00 [poon]

I get a charger, rechargable batteries, 8mb smartmedia

04:46:28 [jim]

and if you are assured that warranty repairs in the future won't involve each a $50 charge, that would be cool too :)

04:46:29 [poon]

Slightly expensive...but at least I'll feel like I got something extra

04:46:35 [poon]

yes

04:46:57 [poon]

k

04:47:03 [poon]

I will bug you tomorrow

04:47:17 [jim]

* jim screens for bugs

04:47:48 [poon]

* poon makes the short trip from his computer desk to his bed...total travel time..2 feet 5 inches

04:49:17 [jim]

ok, the rehersal schedule thing is beyond the scope of this (since the scheduling stuff would be a part of the jamsession app)... so the data model won't have to be so complex

04:50:30 [jim]

there would be a songs table, an arrangements table (foreign key song_id in songs.song_id)

04:52:17 [jim]

and a table holding indication of a person having practiced a particular arrangement (or section thereof) of a particular song

04:53:08 [jim]

each song can have zero or more arrangements

04:54:00 [jim]

an arrangement is a collection of sections of tunes, which themselves are arrangements (of -parts- of tunes)

04:55:35 [jim]

so an arrangement can also be a section of a tune, and the graph of arrangements must be acyclic

04:56:19 [jim]

also needed is lists of songs

04:56:46 [jim]

and lists of arrangements of songs

04:57:21 [jim]

Transactions...

04:57:25 [jim]

add a song

04:57:45 [jim]

associate an arrangement with a song

04:58:11 [jim]

edit the section part of an arrangement

04:58:32 [jim]

add arrangements meant to be parts of songs to an arrangement

05:02:20 [jim]

claim a person knows an arrangement

05:04:06 [jim]

associate a person with a group

05:04:34 [jim]

notify a person that another person knows an arrangement

05:04:53 [jim]

notify all persons in group that all persons in group knows an arrangement

06:21:23 [jim]

* jim is going to try implementing the song, group, person, songlist part of the data model, and transactions (incl notifications) on it

06:55:47 [jim]

jim has quit ("[x]chat")

10:58:52 [davb]

davb (dave@alb-24-58-162-82.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs

10:58:56 [davb]

http://www.webcrimson.com/ourstories/blogsdisruptivetech.htm

10:58:57 [oacs-chump]

B: http://www.webcrimson.com/ourstories/blogsdisruptivetech.htm from davb

10:59:15 [davb]

B:|Blogs as Distruptive Tech

10:59:15 [oacs-chump]

titled item B

10:59:29 [davb]

B: are weblogs beating out fancy CMS solutions?

10:59:29 [oacs-chump]

added comment B1

10:59:37 [davb]

B: where does OpenACS fit in here?

10:59:37 [oacs-chump]

added comment B2

11:00:12 [davb]

B: this is what ETP is supposed to solve, i think. To fit in the space between full-blown over the top CMSware

11:00:12 [oacs-chump]

added comment B3

11:00:35 [davb]

B: i have to remember, easy-to-use! the right features, not ALL of them :)

11:00:36 [oacs-chump]

added comment B4

11:02:40 [davb]

ETP needs the ease of use, centralized features of weblog software, combined with the OpenACS ability to scale to large applications

11:02:56 [davb]

OpenACS can easily do the weblog thing, for one or 100 weblogs or more.

11:03:13 [davb]

It also adds in full community features that are not available in weblog software

11:03:45 [davb]

The community features are what sets OpenACS apart. Only with the community features can you enable full scale collaboration.

11:04:15 [davb]

Of course email and a weblog takes you a long way there. We need to make sure OpenACS can solve the little problems before tackling the big ones.

11:10:07 [davb]

Of course, that article doesn't take into account Open Source, and a well built toolkit that enables quick development and customization.

11:11:20 [davb]

this guy defines some features that CMS have that weblogs don't like workflow, permissions, revision history, and multiple types of data, but he leaves out community.

11:11:38 [davb]

talli: let me know when you read this :) my brain is working this morning.

11:13:01 [davb]

B: at the end are good ideas of places pre-configured setup of OpenACS would work.

11:13:02 [oacs-chump]

added comment B5

11:35:00 [davb]

hmm. changable template parameter for etp 2.0 apps?

12:02:34 [denshi]

* denshi pokes Spork

12:07:20 [davb]

hi denshi

12:07:28 [davb]

Spork is poon now

12:07:37 [denshi]

* denshi pokes poon

12:07:48 [davb]

* davb uploads patch to add searchable_p to the content repository.

12:10:15 [til]

til (til@port-212-202-128-197.reverse.qsc.de) has joined #openacs

12:10:36 [davb]

hi til!

12:10:43 [til]

hey dave!

12:11:28 [til]

wozzup? is this channel still alive?

12:12:13 [davb]

occaisionally

12:14:46 [davb]

we get some work done, have a little fun, laugh at Spork....

12:15:38 [denshi]

http://www.livejournal.com/users/cassieclaire/?skip=20

12:15:38 [oacs-chump]

C: http://www.livejournal.com/users/cassieclaire/?skip=20 from denshi

12:15:52 [denshi]

C:| The Secret Diaries of the Fellowship of the Ring

12:15:52 [oacs-chump]

titled item C

12:18:24 [davb]

cool

12:22:54 [davb]

crazy stuff

12:26:36 [poon]

* poon yawns and decides it's too early

12:26:59 [poon]

poon is now known as Wakiephylax

12:29:46 [denshi]

oh good, I love talking people into things when they're too tired to think straight

12:32:00 [Wakiephylax]

Denshi, you summoned me?

12:32:29 [denshi]

I see in the log above that you're talking about hub.org. are you looking for hosting?

12:33:51 [sash]

sash (~MIA@213-48-249-104.cro.cvx.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #openacs

12:34:06 [Wakiephylax]

Me and jim were discussing the poor design of www.splitimagephoto.com

12:34:20 [sash]

Hello, how many of you are running TUX & AOLServer?

12:34:25 [Wakiephylax]

And he said it could use a nice OACS overhaul

12:34:29 [Wakiephylax]

lol

12:34:34 [Wakiephylax]

everyone

12:35:12 [sash]

Does the network lag deform the TUX speedup?

12:36:05 [denshi]

hello sash

12:36:19 [denshi]

is the TUX question referred to me?

12:37:50 [Infraphylax]

Infraphylax (nblyumbe@ool-18baa8de.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #openacs

12:38:01 [Infraphylax]

Don't ya be running away in a server split!

12:38:07 [Infraphylax]

* Infraphylax bites rbm

12:38:09 [sash]

hello denschi. Since you wrote the article, perhaps, but others are welcome to comment.

12:38:13 [denshi]

damn, another *phylax

12:38:21 [sash]

s/denschi/denshi/

12:38:22 [denshi]

you should call yourself volvox instead

12:38:27 [Infraphylax]

attack of the clones!

12:38:34 [sash]

exlax?

12:38:45 [Infraphylax]

no no..I'm not exing out yet

12:38:48 [talli]

talli has quit (bear.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)

12:38:48 [Wakiephylax]

Wakiephylax has quit (bear.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)

12:38:48 [oacs-chump]

oacs-chump has quit (bear.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)

12:39:04 [denshi]

and chump is defeated....

12:39:12 [denshi]

who will hold our links?

12:39:23 [Infraphylax]

denshimon...About hub.org I was looking at a website that needed an overhaul for their website

12:39:37 [Infraphylax]

* Infraphylax will do his best

12:39:41 [denshi]

sash, I don't quite follow your sentence. What kind of deformation are you talking about?

12:39:51 [talli]

talli (~chatzilla@pool-162-83-238-204.ny5030.east.verizon.net) has joined #openacs

12:39:51 [oacs-chump]

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12:40:06 [Infraphylax]

yay..chump synced up

12:40:08 [denshi]

Infra, I have hosting on hub.org and am looking to move off it onto my own box

12:40:13 [Infraphylax]

Ah

12:40:24 [Infraphylax]

Their bandwidth costs are outrageous btw

12:40:31 [Infraphylax]

I don't see how jim was saying they're cheap

12:40:34 [denshi]

so I'm looking to split a 1U at rackshack w/ someone

12:40:42 [Infraphylax]

oh

12:40:46 [Infraphylax]

how much is it

12:40:53 [denshi]

$99

12:40:54 [davb]

denshi: interesting.

12:40:59 [davb]

i might be interested.

12:41:02 [denshi]

lemme check on the cap

12:41:11 [Infraphylax]

yeah me three

12:41:25 [Infraphylax]

I might be interested but for different reasons

12:42:20 [denshi]

400GB Monthly Transfer

12:42:27 [Infraphylax]

lol

12:42:28 [davb]

that seems reasonable

12:42:29 [denshi]

took me a sec to find it

12:42:38 [Infraphylax]

Do you have shell access?

12:42:54 [denshi]

i guess so; it's full dedicated server

12:43:49 [Infraphylax]

i need to develop a website for them first before I can jump in on the offer

12:44:09 [sash]

denshi: shrug. A Sun developer told me that network lag would severely affect TUX's speed. I'm no expert.

12:44:46 [denshi]

you're asking me if high network latency curtails any advantages of HTTP serving inside the kernel?

12:45:31 [sash]

In general usage, yes.

12:45:33 [denshi]

well, if your network is slow, your server will have to hold on to those connections for longer than it would like, whether it is handling them in user space (aolserver) or in kernel space (TUX, khttpd)

12:45:50 [davb]

bbl

12:45:54 [Infraphylax]

me too

12:45:54 [denshi]

so it's not like one or the other is more susceptible

12:45:56 [Infraphylax]

I need more sleep

12:47:41 [sash]

Infraphylax: Count sheep.

12:47:47 [oacs-chump]

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12:47:47 [talli]

talli has quit (bear.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)

12:48:01 [denshi]

kernel webservers are designed to avoid context switches and memory copies to reduce execution time and memory requirements.

12:48:15 [denshi]

high network performance is a side effect of that

12:48:44 [denshi]

and no matter the speed of the network, those benefits are still there

12:48:47 [talli]

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12:48:47 [oacs-chump]

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12:50:11 [lilo]

[GlobalNotice] Hi all. A main rotation server has just split and rejoined twice. The fault seemed to occur with the hubbing and we've rehubbed it. Thanks.

12:52:14 [denshi]

actually, to come down hard on the side of TUX, the reason I started playing with that was because of network lag

12:53:16 [sash]

denshi: Thank you for the insight.

12:54:06 [denshi]

see, if you've got lots of connections over slow links talking to aolserver, then you're hanging on to a fairly heavy thread (interps, db conns, etc) just to stream content down a socket

12:54:29 [denshi]

and if they grow, and you run up against your max threadcount, then you're basically hosed

12:55:24 [denshi]

IIRC, philg had a util in his nsd admin package to reset nsd when all its connections were taken by slow users

12:57:32 [denshi]

so TUX is cool there b/c you just hand the delivery over to the kernel and let nsd move on. & the kernel is happy to support perhaps 1 order of magnitude more sockets than most userspace programs

12:57:41 [denshi]

but I repeat myself

12:59:12 [davb]

denshi are you using ETP?

12:59:18 [denshi]

nope

12:59:20 [davb]

ok:)

12:59:41 [davb]

THere isn't too much feedback past the initial stage on the bboard.

12:59:41 [denshi]

I've been doing server stuff this last month

12:59:50 [davb]

right.

12:59:51 [denshi]

I haven't done anything that overlaps with ETP

13:11:35 [sash]

sash has left #openacs

14:18:01 [Infraphylax]

eep

14:38:27 [talli]

hey guys

14:40:06 [Infraphylax]

paje again!

14:40:10 [Infraphylax]

oh rats..

14:40:12 [Infraphylax]

* Infraphylax hides

14:48:37 [talli]

Infraphylax: any luck with gentoo?

14:49:34 [davb]

hi talli

14:51:11 [talli]

hey davb

14:51:17 [talli]

how's etp2 coming along?

14:51:29 [davb]

i am doing alot of thinking :)

14:52:05 [talli]

nice

14:57:01 [talli]

http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=189785

14:57:02 [talli]

nsjava 1.0.0 is released

14:57:02 [oacs-chump]

D: http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=189785 from talli

14:57:10 [davb]

cool.

14:59:46 [talli]

D: DanW releases nsjava

14:59:47 [oacs-chump]

added comment D1

15:02:03 [davb]

anyway talli. did you see that stuff I wrote in the log about CMS and weblogs? that is an interesting article.

15:02:33 [talli]

yes, i saw that a little bt ago but i was too sleepy to absorb it

15:02:35 [talli]

lemme go back

15:03:20 [talli]

davb: i would love an ETP2 weblog

15:04:19 [talli]

haha. he references clayton christensun

15:04:25 [talli]

he's a friend of my pops

15:04:35 [talli]

actually, my dad told me about meeting with him yesterday

15:07:00 [davb]

neat.

15:07:15 [davb]

anyway the idea is that 99% of people don't need all that fancy stuff.

15:07:22 [talli]

it's true

15:07:25 [talli]

it's why luke built ETP

15:07:27 [davb]

and weblog is a piece of cake in etp2.

15:07:30 [davb]

right.

15:07:40 [talli]

99% of the aD CMS was useless or too much

15:07:43 [talli]

very cool!

15:08:31 [talli]

have you started hacking etp2 yet

15:08:31 [talli]

?

15:08:32 [davb]

talli: right. and if someone needs that the pieces are in there in the CR to build it. anyone who needs all tha thas the $$$ and will want it custom built.

15:09:18 [davb]

hacking etp2. yes.

15:09:25 [davb]

I am trying to figure out what to put back in.

15:09:41 [talli]

yes, that's true

15:09:42 [talli]

but etp2 should also make that easy to develop

15:09:42 [talli]

in other words, etp2 shouldn't force someone to build their own tool if they can't find what they want in etp2

15:09:42 [talli]

the reason that would be bad is that it would cause whoever has $$$ to pay more

15:09:44 [davb]

I fixed the search part of the CR that etp2 needs.

15:09:46 [talli]

cool

15:09:51 [talli]

very nice!

15:10:07 [talli]

davb: do you use amphetadesk?

15:10:25 [davb]

talli: right. what I want is a bunch of little packages that can be hooked together with service contracts to build up a whole application,

15:10:34 [davb]

talli: i have tried it. its pretty cool for a newsreader.

15:11:00 [davb]

but there is no way to delete items after you read them, or set how long they stay on the page, at least I couldn't figure it out :)

15:13:18 [talli]

yes, that would be very cool

15:13:19 [talli]

have you also been chatting with luke about this stuff?

15:13:55 [talli]

http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/web/library/wa-techarch/index.html?dwzone=web

15:13:55 [oacs-chump]

E: http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/web/library/wa-techarch/index.html?dwzone=web from talli

15:14:10 [talli]

E: Building a technical infrastructure for web-based enterprise systems

15:14:11 [oacs-chump]

added comment E1

15:15:04 [davb]

talli: some. i need to get my thoughts organized.

15:15:48 [davb]

i also need to talk to don when he is available.

15:16:31 [davb]

to see about taking apart CMS to keep the good bits.

15:19:21 [talli]

could amphetadesk be implemented in oacs as a portlet? that wouldn't be too hard, would it?

15:19:22 [talli]

cool

15:19:22 [talli]

we can open a forum to discuss it on clients.museatech.net if you'd like

15:24:44 [talli]

yeah, that makes sense

15:24:45 [talli]

i would also speak wtih lars about his UI specs

15:24:45 [talli]

one of the strong points of etp should not just be the ease of adding content but finding previous content as well

15:24:45 [talli]

for instance, if you visit the cms at etp.urbanparks.org you'll see there are some nice features like adding content and so on

15:24:45 [talli]

but you'll also see it's pretty much a disaster when trying to organize it

15:29:23 [davb]

talli: we could build something similar to aggregate RSS. Neophytos was working on it.

15:29:33 [talli]

very cool

15:29:43 [talli]

that would be a really nice feature for a portlet

15:30:31 [davb]

talli: the organizaing issue is one I am thinking about.

15:30:44 [davb]

with etp, each section or folder is a seperate etp instance.

15:30:56 [davb]

to add an item you have to navigate over to the right place first.

15:30:56 [talli]

very cool

15:31:16 [davb]

I am thinking of a etp-master that can add and admin every etp instance under it.

15:31:41 [davb]

actually i think neophytos orginally had that idea too :)

15:31:50 [talli]

very cool

15:33:01 [davb]

but this is why i get distracted. all these neat ideas that I can add on once etp 2.0 is done:)

15:33:11 [davb]

i just want to make sure it is easy to hook into these services.

15:33:47 [talli]

yes

16:19:51 [talli]

davb: still tehre?

17:23:55 [talli]

anyone home?

17:24:32 [til]

i am not at home

17:24:37 [til]

hey talli

17:24:39 [talli]

til: you bastard!

17:24:43 [talli]

go brazil!!!

17:24:49 [til]

definitely!!!

17:24:55 [talli]

what???

17:25:04 [talli]

i thought you were deutsch?

17:25:08 [til]

you think i'm german, ha?

17:25:12 [talli]

oops

17:25:16 [talli]

nederlander?

17:25:32 [til]

no way, austrian. and don't get me started on their football team

17:25:37 [talli]

ah, ok

17:25:41 [til]

*sigh*

17:25:57 [talli]

so the austrians don't support germany?

17:26:00 [til]

i'm just glad that the final is not germany-turkey

17:26:20 [talli]

since that whole austro-hunagrian thing, i guess? or was it that short guy with the funny mustache?

17:26:26 [til]

they would have destroyed berlin, where i am right now

17:26:26 [talli]

charley chaplin i think his name was

17:26:35 [talli]

oh man

17:26:36 [talli]

i bet

17:26:50 [til]

exactly ;)

17:27:01 [til]

they all had funny moustaches

17:27:11 [talli]

i imagine that if turkey had beaten germany, some of the neo-nazis may have been a little, uhm, bothered

17:27:48 [talli]

so how was the social?

17:28:08 [til]

i guess so ... and they should be, since berlin is the second largest turkish city, after istanbul

17:28:25 [til]

can't remember ... there was beer i think

17:28:30 [talli]

:)

17:28:32 [talli]

that much, huh?

17:28:43 [talli]

bummer, i wish i could have made it. it sounds like it was a big one

17:28:49 [til]

waiting for more eloquent people to post their summaries

17:28:55 [talli]

:)

17:29:01 [talli]

are tehy all hungover?

17:29:04 [talli]

still?

17:29:28 [til]

the globalization meeting was great, looking forward to carl's follow up

17:29:41 [talli]

you got to meet donb, though. that must have been nice. i'm glad that a european social could happen so that we get the community even tighter

17:29:46 [til]

he did a great job in organizing the effort

17:29:58 [til]

yes, it was great

17:29:59 [talli]

there are some open source projects with bigger names that have much smaller community contributors

17:30:15 [til]

how much bigger than donb can a name be?

17:30:32 [talli]

the oacs doesn't have so much name recognition, but a much stronger, more involved community

17:30:45 [talli]

i guess you haven't heard of paje, huh?

17:30:50 [til]

talking about recognition, is 4.5 now released or what?

17:30:56 [talli]

rbm: where's paje?

17:31:05 [talli]

i don't think 4.5 is "officially" released

17:31:12 [talli]

i think it's ok

17:31:14 [til]

i only realized today that there is such a news item

17:31:24 [talli]

i might suggest that we wait for two things to officially release

17:31:29 [talli]

1) we get teh new site ready

17:31:35 [talli]

2) we annouce at linux world

17:31:55 [til]

uh oh, the new site

17:31:58 [talli]

that way we get a lot of people to come to the new site and we can talk to many people face to face

17:32:08 [talli]

the new site *will* be done by linux world

17:32:25 [talli]

davb is working on etp2

17:32:43 [talli]

the problem with the new site originally was that we built it on very unstable alpha code

17:32:52 [til]

someone on the greenpeace list contributed a favicon for the new site - should i forward it to someone? whom?

17:32:55 [talli]

so it worked for what it was, but you never know when it might crash

17:33:01 [talli]

what's a favicon?

17:33:13 [talli]

you can forward it to me, davb or rbm, or all of us

17:33:22 [til]

a little picture that is displayed in the url bar of the browser

17:33:23 [talli]

we'll be working on the new site

17:33:29 [talli]

oh, nice!

17:33:43 [til]

ok, i'll send it to you

17:34:01 [talli]

cool

17:35:25 [til]

hmm, how to forward a mail plus attachment in mutt?

17:38:04 [talli]

it's a beeyatch

17:38:24 [talli]

i have yet to figure out how to forward it so that it automatically keeps the attachement

17:38:28 [til]

aargh

17:38:37 [talli]

so i save the attachment then add it again

17:38:40 [til]

normally it's ok that the attachment is not forwarded imho

17:39:13 [talli]

not for me, unless it's a gpg. usually i'm trying to forward some doc where the mail says something like, "here's the doc"

17:39:28 [til]

you should bounce those ;)

17:39:43 [talli]

ah, good idea!

17:39:58 [talli]

can you bounce them to a different address?

17:40:10 [til]

no, i mean bounce to the originator, with an offending ".doc's suck" message

17:40:11 [talli]

which equals a forward, right?

17:40:18 [talli]

ah, right :)

17:40:41 [talli]

but now with abiword and openoffice, i don't really care

17:43:44 [talli]

til: you a debian user/

17:43:46 [talli]

?

17:43:56 [talli]

or redhat?

17:44:03 [til]

yes (why, do you have secret openoffice debs for me?)

17:44:26 [talli]

there are no openoffice debs????

17:44:35 [talli]

rbm: WHERE ARE THE OPENOFFICE DEBS????

17:44:43 [talli]

rbm usually knows where that kind of stuff is

17:44:44 [til]

not officially at least *sigh*

17:45:03 [til]

rbm: while you're at it, package kde 3 too

17:45:12 [talli]

i installed kde3.0.2 after rbm pointed me to some secret places

17:45:23 [abbaJ]

abbaJ (~jabba@adsl-65-65-97-179.dsl.austtx.swbell.net) has joined #openacs

17:45:25 [talli]

check the logs from thursday

17:45:26 [til]

without hosing your machine?

17:45:30 [til]

ok, thanks

17:45:33 [talli]

yeah, installed perfect

17:45:50 [talli]

but you know, i did an apt-get upgrade and got gnome2 (i think)

17:45:57 [talli]

whatever it was, i found it very reasonable and useable

17:46:11 [talli]

i tried to install gnome on my gentoo box, though, and it hasn't been very workable

17:46:16 [til]

i dont want to go away from kde anymore ...

17:46:27 [talli]

evolution on KDE is butt slow. evolution on gnome is very nice. imagine that

17:46:37 [til]

mutt on kde is even faster ;)

17:46:39 [talli]

kde is very nice

17:46:42 [talli]

:)

17:46:48 [talli]

mutt is nice

17:47:03 [til]

did you get the favicon? you know what to do with it?

17:47:11 [talli]

yes, i did, thanks

17:47:24 [talli]

i don't, but davb does. i will give it to him when we're working on the new site

17:48:01 [til]

just put it in the root www/ folder if you have time and access

17:48:16 [talli]

i don't have the access at the moment

17:50:13 [talli]

til: from rbm on thursday

17:50:15 [talli]

16:27:44 <rbm> talli: "deb http://frml.snt.utwente.nl/~remco/deb/kde3 ./" or <http://people.debian.org/~ccheney/> or http://calc.cx/kde.txt

17:51:36 [til]

i've seen that on irc before but didn't there to install it ... thanks for guinea pigging ;)

17:52:03 [til]

esp. because of some note in there about possibly completely destroying the installation

17:52:03 [talli]

np

17:52:12 [talli]

live on the edge!

17:52:22 [talli]

are you running sid/unstable?

17:52:48 [talli]

you need to in order to install kde3

17:53:09 [til]

yes, that's ok

18:15:24 [davb]

hey didn't you guys see my favicon.ico for openacs.org??

18:16:07 [davb]

check out http://24.58.162.82:8001/

18:18:49 [denshi]

that's cure

18:18:53 [denshi]

s/cure/cute/

18:29:10 [til]

wow! nice ...

18:29:10 [til]

so now there are two

18:43:58 [talilee]

talilee (~talli@xd84b5c59.ip.ggn.net) has joined #openacs

18:44:48 [talilee]

hey, anyone around?

18:44:53 [talilee]

damn, forgot to log off at home again

18:45:38 [davb]

what?

18:45:40 [davb]

its nice outside.

18:46:06 [davb]

well, we have grass here. I don't know what its like down there.

18:46:47 [talilee]

who was that for?

18:47:50 [talilee]

davb: do you have access to a copy of the borkware.com sie?

18:56:46 [Infraphylax]

wooo

18:56:57 [Infraphylax]

Dave?

19:06:41 [talilee]

hey Infraphylax

19:06:44 [talilee]

any luck with gentoo?

19:08:16 [Infraphylax]

nope

19:08:35 [Infraphylax]

i'm going to wait until I get mobile racks so I can just deal with one drive at a time

19:08:48 [Infraphylax]

and not worry about corrupting the Windows install

19:21:18 [davb]

talilee: i only did the template

19:22:00 [talilee]

ah, ok

19:22:20 [talilee]

i'll email markd and see if he can send me a tarball

19:22:36 [davb]

what exactly are you looking for?

19:23:34 [talilee]

perhaps i don't need the tarball

19:23:43 [talilee]

i want to use the basic borkware stuff for a momentum site

19:26:07 [davb]

ok

19:26:31 [davb]

i am working on a design with a calender flipping pages for an m

19:26:40 [talilee]

excellent!

19:26:45 [davb]

it looked pretty cool on paper.

19:27:13 [talilee]

i look forward to checking it out

19:30:21 [davb]

ok, i'm going back outside now.

19:30:26 [davb]

:)

19:30:55 [talilee]

see ya

20:13:01 [talilee]

talilee has quit ("Client Exiting")

21:02:44 [talli]

anyone around?

21:03:51 [davb]

hey

21:06:35 [Infraphylax]

woo

21:06:36 [Infraphylax]

;)

21:06:37 [talli]

hey

21:06:43 [Infraphylax]

My latest creation

21:06:45 [talli]

are you guys up to date on teh whole lilo/OPN mess?

21:06:51 [Infraphylax]

nope

21:07:04 [talli]

hmmm...

21:07:16 [davb]

a little.

21:07:18 [davb]

why?

21:07:20 [talli]

lilo seems to be pretty reasonable in his responses

21:07:26 [talli]

just wondering if it

21:07:33 [talli]

it's script kiddies who are attacking him

21:07:41 [talli]

or if people have a legitimate beef

21:07:49 [Infraphylax]

What's the deal?

21:07:54 [davb]

he doesn't have to run the network all by himself.

21:08:07 [talli]

the people that have signed the petition at printf.org seem to be from the channels that are most filled by script kiddies

21:08:09 [talli]

no, he doesn't

21:08:23 [talli]

but since he's the leader, i don't doubt he might have to do the most work

21:08:24 [davb]

OPN has its share of useless channels.

21:08:38 [talli]

yeah

21:08:42 [davb]

but i think it does support open source projects.

21:08:51 [talli]

and i hear that people are attacking his reputation and his person

21:08:57 [Infraphylax]

Where?

21:09:08 [talli]

slashdot and other mailing lists

21:09:27 [davb]

the usual suspect for attacking someone's reputation with no evidence.

21:09:27 [talli]

someone posted on slashdot that he is trying to maintain his salary of 150K/yr with contributions from OPN

21:09:30 [talli]

i can't beleive that

21:09:40 [davb]

i don't think that is the case at all.

21:09:40 [talli]

yes, but also anti-semitic attacks

21:09:48 [davb]

wow that is silly.

21:09:59 [talli]

yeah, people are getting really nasty, for no real reason

21:10:13 [davb]

there is a simple reason. they are stupid.

21:10:17 [talli]

it is a large and successful project, that does need some strong administration

21:10:20 [talli]

that's true

21:10:41 [Infraphylax]

Oh well

21:11:18 [davb]

if he can make OPN an official NPO it would be helpful i think. I don't think he is trying to get rich off OPN.

21:13:22 [talli]

no, i don't think so either

21:14:13 [Infraphylax]

i did a search for lilo opn

21:14:17 [Infraphylax]

found stuff about him .. ;)

21:14:19 [Infraphylax]

* Infraphylax reads

21:19:33 [Infraphylax]

Did you guys see my picture?

21:20:54 [davb]

Infraphylax: cool!

21:23:26 [Infraphylax]

yeah I cheated to get some color in there

21:23:45 [Infraphylax]

I combined a full color picture @ 20% opacity

21:23:50 [Infraphylax]

with an IR pic

21:27:17 [talli]

talli has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))

21:28:35 [Infraphylax]

IR photography is so cool

21:29:09 [sash]

sash (~MIA@213-48-251-75.cro.cvx.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #openacs

21:29:28 [sash]

I've spoken to lilo and he seems like a nice enough chap

21:30:09 [sash]

I do think people do have a legitimate argument with him, but the trollers are killing the discussion.

21:30:41 [Infraphylax]

sash...did you follow me from #gentoo? :)

21:30:42 [sash]

If I had a job available, I'd hire him. He's in Houston.

21:30:56 [Infraphylax]

Do you have a job for me?

21:30:59 [Infraphylax]

* Infraphylax is willing to travel

21:31:18 [sash]

Infraphylax: No, I don't think so, I was there earlier, trying to get help with dc.

21:31:36 [sash]

Infraphylax: Right now, I don't even have a job for me.

21:31:37 [Infraphylax]

there being gentoo? or there being here in #openacs

21:31:53 [sash]

The former.

21:32:13 [sash]

I did find another distro for you to try. Beehive.

21:32:18 [sash]

:)

21:32:35 [sash]

www.beehive.nu

21:32:40 [Infraphylax]

Sash :) I hang out here with paje, dave, talli, mark and the gang for a loong time ;)

21:33:28 [talli]

talli (~chatzilla@pool-162-83-238-204.ny5030.east.verizon.net) has joined #openacs

21:34:20 [Infraphylax]

wow, beehive looks spiffy

21:34:30 [Infraphylax]

I'll have to snatch another box from my boss for testing :)

21:34:32 [sash]

P3 and onwards.

21:34:47 [Infraphylax]

I have a classic Athlon 750

21:34:49 [Infraphylax]

I should beo k

21:35:38 [sash]

How is gentoo?

21:36:05 [sash]

Seems like a headache.

21:36:19 [sash]

If you're ready, use Slackware lol.

21:36:39 [Infraphylax]

Gentoo is not too bad...The hardest part is the install

21:36:56 [Infraphylax]

Primarily because they rely on archaic tools such as linux fdisk

21:37:13 [sash]

fdisk is great.

21:37:19 [Infraphylax]

I don't like it ;)

21:37:44 [sash]

It's pretty straightforward.

21:37:53 [talli]

sash: who are you my masked hero?

21:38:07 [sash]

What do you prefer for partitioning?

21:38:42 [talli]

sash: ?

21:38:52 [talli]

who are you my man (or woman)

21:38:54 [talli]

?

21:39:06 [sash]

I am the wind that whispers through the night.

21:39:24 [sash]

Male.

21:39:40 [sash]

The sibilant zephyr.

21:39:45 [talli]

is it hard whispering trough the night with a penis?

21:40:07 [sash]

Er, this channel is logged.

21:40:24 [davb]

talli's political career is already over...

21:40:38 [sash]

Mine is still nascent.

21:40:39 [talli]

it's over again? damn

21:40:53 [davb]

slow on the bboards today

21:41:01 [talli]

seriously. sash, are you in the oacs community?

21:41:14 [sash]

No, I was using ACS.

21:42:24 [Infraphylax]

where's paje?

21:42:57 [talli]

sash: which acs?

21:43:48 [sash]

4.2

21:48:08 [Infraphylax]

hey dave...

21:48:15 [Infraphylax]

you want to see some of paje's relatives./

21:48:51 [Infraphylax]

my 10x optical zoom would have been excellent for this shot

21:51:35 [davb]

Infraphylax: you are a picture taking fiend.

21:52:25 [Infraphylax]

I had to stalk that little guy for at least 15 minutes

21:52:46 [Infraphylax]

I didn't have my teleconverter on...and he ran off into his little house in a hole

21:53:01 [Infraphylax]

And wouldn't come out until I pretended to walk away...then he came out on his porch again

21:53:12 [Infraphylax]

I then had my teleconverter on though

22:10:29 [sash]

I got a shot of a raven from 12" away. It was trapped in brambles.

22:10:43 [Infraphylax]

Oh you animal torturer you :P

22:10:59 [sash]

Amazing blue highlights. I released it.

22:11:06 [Infraphylax]

:)

22:11:14 [sash]

Hey, I'm not stalking rodents.

22:11:48 [Infraphylax]

yeah talking about highlights: I like this shot http://www.pbase.com/image/2006702/medium

22:12:07 [sash]

You wanted to take a pic of the little guy's little guy. lol

22:12:19 [Infraphylax]

:)

22:12:26 [Infraphylax]

not my fault he was sunbathing nekked

22:12:32 [Infraphylax]

brb...smoke time

22:13:23 [sash]

Call the animal protection people. He's going to smoke the squirrel.

22:17:30 [Infraphylax]

lol

22:17:47 [Infraphylax]

Dave...you awake?

22:18:07 [Infraphylax]

* Infraphylax spanks dave

22:18:45 [Infraphylax]

sash you do photography?

22:18:46 [sash]

Does he have some sort of haptic interface?

22:19:02 [sash]

Only analogue.

22:19:10 [sash]

Canon T90.

22:19:20 [Infraphylax]

Why no digital?

22:19:58 [sash]

Unless I could use my existing lenses, it would be too costly.

22:20:42 [sash]

I remember a guy from the BlackKatz? agency bringing in a digital SLR.

22:20:56 [sash]

That was almost 10 yrs ago.

22:21:33 [Infraphylax]

Well, you could probably use your canon lenses...but it would cost you :)

22:21:43 [sash]

If I had bought Nikon lenses, I could probably use their digital bodies.

22:21:55 [Infraphylax]

Canon makes digial bodies too

22:22:06 [Infraphylax]

really good ones too

22:22:29 [sash]

Well, I don't do the autofocus malarkey, The T90 is a classic.

22:22:37 [Infraphylax]

;)

22:23:01 [sash]

The T90 pro lenses are great and relatively cheap.

22:23:03 [Infraphylax]

look up D30, D60 and EOS-1D

22:23:26 [Infraphylax]

I'm not sure but I think my next digicam will probably be a digital SLR from Canon

22:23:44 [Infraphylax]

They make Image Stabilization on their lenses

22:23:51 [sash]

Canon are known for not allowing lenses to work on different bodies.

22:23:59 [Infraphylax]

that's why I have two Olympus C-2100UZ

22:24:07 [sash]

Or you could use a tripod.

22:24:20 [Infraphylax]

heh

22:24:26 [Infraphylax]

IS is really cool

22:24:32 [Infraphylax]

I love my C-2100

22:24:44 [Infraphylax]

too bad one of them is getting fixed

22:24:47 [sash]

I think you could use the EOS lenses in their vidcameras.

22:25:23 [sash]

Digital is the future, but it's too expensive for me currently.

22:25:46 [Infraphylax]

yeah I got lucky getting a chance to buy the C-2100UZ before they ran out

22:25:51 [Infraphylax]

it's really one amazing camera

22:26:03 [sash]

I remember a studio photographer decrying Nikon lenses as being too sharp!

22:27:15 [sash]

What are the lenses like?

22:27:26 [Infraphylax]

it's funny how a 2.1 mpx camera can beat a Canon EOS D30, a 4 mpx Oly E-10 and a 5mpx Sony F707

22:27:36 [Infraphylax]

For the UZi?

22:27:45 [sash]

Yes.

22:27:57 [Infraphylax]

$ http://www.pbase.com/psychephylax/digital_tools

22:28:16 [Infraphylax]

I have to use "accessory lenses"

22:28:46 [Infraphylax]

It has a fixed lens system but any lens that's like a filter can be used

22:29:58 [sash]

What's the cost of a 20mm?

22:30:09 [Infraphylax]

20mm?

22:30:29 [Infraphylax]

is that like medium format?

22:30:56 [sash]

No, what's the focal length of the wide angle?

22:31:09 [Infraphylax]

On my camera?

22:31:16 [Infraphylax]

7mm (28mm equiv)

22:31:43 [Infraphylax]

c-2100.olympus.com/

22:31:46 [sash]

What f stop is that?

22:31:59 [Infraphylax]

2.8 - 10 I think

22:32:12 [sash]

And how much is that new?

22:32:23 [Infraphylax]

complete specs

22:33:00 [Infraphylax]

If you can find one at a CompUSA...450 or 500$ (website is 450$)

22:33:28 [sash]

How does that camera give better images than the larger res machines?

22:33:40 [Infraphylax]

The C-2100 has been discontinued because canon terminated the contract with Olympus for IS lenses

22:34:54 [Infraphylax]

look up "Figure of Merit"

22:35:06 [sash]

So, Olympus are somehow interpolating their CCD array to get better performance?

22:35:07 [Infraphylax]

or go here: http://www.mav-magazine.com/Jun2000/FigureofMerit/

22:35:21 [Infraphylax]

I wouldn't say that

22:35:37 [Infraphylax]

The 10x Optical zoom is available on very few cameras at a "reasonable" price

22:35:58 [Infraphylax]

three cameras come to mind: Olympus C-2100UZ, Olympus E-100RS, Canon Pro90IS

22:36:29 [Infraphylax]

They all use the same exact lens but Olympus was able to tweak their cameras to be much faster

22:36:49 [Infraphylax]

no shutter lag, rapid focus compared to the Pro90

22:38:09 [Infraphylax]

There's quiet a cult following for the UZI (C-2100UZ) and the EZI (E-100RS) on dpreview.com

22:38:33 [sash]

Do the lenses use the same fitting?

22:38:41 [Infraphylax]

You mean same size?

22:38:59 [sash]

Adapter, size, connector...

22:39:33 [sash]

Could you connect the Pro90IS lens to the Olympus?

22:40:18 [Infraphylax]

let me look it up

22:40:30 [sash]

And retain full functionality?

22:40:50 [Infraphylax]

you could

22:40:57 [Infraphylax]

but the threads are different sizes

22:41:02 [Infraphylax]

Olympus uses 49mm

22:41:09 [Infraphylax]

Canon used 58mm

22:41:32 [Infraphylax]

The Olympus B-300 uses a 55mm thread...so for my Oly cameras I use a 49mm to 55mm step-up ring

22:41:45 [Infraphylax]

I would guess you could use it on a canon with a 58 to 55mm step-down ring

22:41:53 [Infraphylax]

but as you know, it's better to step up than to step down

22:42:32 [sash]

Hmm, Will Olympus use Nikon lenses instead for their next box?

22:42:48 [Infraphylax]

no idea

22:42:55 [sash]

Perhaps Sigma might help.

22:43:28 [Infraphylax]

(dpreview.com) We're hoping for a 4-5mpx 10x Optical IS lens to be used in some camera so we can replace our UZIs

22:43:44 [Infraphylax]

I believe Olympus and Kodak got together to make a CCD of some sort

22:43:57 [sash]

My next camera purchase will be a s/hand medium format.

22:44:15 [sash]

Somewhere in the future.

22:44:34 [sash]

Those lenses are truly expensive.

22:45:57 [Infraphylax]

yeah no kidding

22:46:06 [Infraphylax]

an H2O medium format is like 25000$

22:46:17 [Infraphylax]

Hell, I'll buy my 500$ UZI and a car :)

22:46:25 [sash]

I was thinking more of the Rolleis.

22:46:47 [sash]

I'd buy a recumbent bike and race you.

22:47:09 [sash]

The record is ~ 60 m.p.h.

22:48:17 [Infraphylax]

heh

22:48:31 [Infraphylax]

The Rollei d30 Flex has a 35-105mm in 35mm zoom

22:48:43 [Infraphylax]

the UZI has a 380mm zoom in 35mm

22:48:58 [Infraphylax]

I don't doubt the Rollei is a better camera but zooooom!

22:49:48 [sash]

35mm, not medium format?

22:50:47 [Infraphylax]

Dunno

22:51:07 [Infraphylax]

I'm not THAT good in photography

22:51:42 [sash]

Someone's selling a 8K Rollei SL66E body, back & 50mm, 15mm & 18mm lenses for £2K.

22:52:22 [Infraphylax]

that means nothing to me :)

22:52:40 [sash]

Lot of money for a hobby, although a decent jazz guitar is getting in that range.

22:53:32 [Infraphylax]

heh

22:53:35 [Infraphylax]

You're telling me?

22:53:40 [Infraphylax]

B-300 = 250$

22:53:46 [Infraphylax]

WCON08 - 150$

22:53:57 [Infraphylax]

Tiffen #87 IR Filter = 80$

22:54:28 [sash]

Are you comfortable w/ Photoshop/digital retouching software?

22:54:42 [Infraphylax]

yes

22:55:54 [Infraphylax]

i have to be otherwise the pictures won't look that great

22:57:07 [sash]

BTW, can you do macro photography w/ your camera?

22:57:18 [Infraphylax]

yep

22:59:20 [Infraphylax]

I have to do more macro though

22:59:25 [Infraphylax]

IR has me hooked so far

23:02:08 [sash]

Are you a student? If so, what do you study formally?

23:03:04 [Infraphylax]

I was a student

23:03:13 [Infraphylax]

Finished though

23:03:35 [Infraphylax]

I have a a double major in Computer Science and Applied Math and Statistics

23:03:37 [sash]

Of which subject?

23:04:00 [sash]

Yikes, Bayesian functions?

23:04:48 [Infraphylax]

?

23:07:44 [sash]

Statistical approach.

23:08:20 [Infraphylax]

AMS wasn't my primary study

23:08:58 [Infraphylax]

stats never really interested me THAT much..but it was only like 5 extra courses to get an AMS major in addition to my CS degree

23:09:09 [sash]

Did you study in America?

23:09:17 [Infraphylax]

yes

23:09:23 [Infraphylax]

unfortunately

23:09:48 [sash]

Unfortunately? Where are the better unis?

23:10:04 [sash]

Not in GB.

23:11:27 [Infraphylax]

Australia

23:11:36 [Infraphylax]

Singapore

23:11:51 [Infraphylax]

There are good ones in US but not the one i went to

23:12:57 [sash]

Singapore is better for technical studies than Stanford, MIT or Caltech?

23:13:18 [Infraphylax]

I don't know I never went to any of them

23:13:44 [Infraphylax]

Of course I also don't have a 80,000$ dept to the banks either :)

23:14:02 [sash]

* sash nods

23:15:13 [sash]

University of Sussex is pretty good if you're into Complexity, Genetic Algorithms and suchlike.

23:15:34 [sash]

Artificial Life stuff.

23:15:37 [Infraphylax]

heh

23:15:58 [sash]

I'm considering a Masters there.

23:15:59 [Infraphylax]

I can't say how good/bad other schools are...but the one I went to did the whole curriculum backwards

23:16:08 [sash]

Backwards lol.

23:16:16 [sash]

Sounds most zen like.

23:16:17 [Infraphylax]

First they emphasized coding

23:16:26 [Infraphylax]

then it was theory

23:16:33 [sash]

LOL

23:16:37 [Infraphylax]

and towards the end there was no more than 2 courses on planning

23:16:54 [Infraphylax]

If you ask me..that's half-assed backwards

23:17:04 [sash]

Mine emphasized quake.

23:17:17 [Infraphylax]

It would at least make sense to teach pre-planning of your project

23:17:20 [Infraphylax]

with mixed theory

23:17:24 [sash]

Yes.

23:17:29 [Infraphylax]

then coding be the last part

23:18:02 [Infraphylax]

Most people get into upper division junior and senior courses and they don't know where to start the project aside from just sitting down and coding until things work

23:19:49 [denshi]

how about this? most students are never exposed to the sources to large software projects in industry

23:20:20 [Infraphylax]

yeah that's also bad

23:20:49 [Infraphylax]

hmmm

23:20:51 [denshi]

the CS undergrad curriculum is syntax -> data structures -> algorithms -> topic survey -> senior project (1 semester); and then they're judged to be capable to build software in the real world

23:21:17 [Infraphylax]

ROFL

23:21:17 [denshi]

the largest project in curriculum is about 1 semester

23:21:20 [Infraphylax]

that's about right

23:21:27 [sash]

That's not the case at MIT is it?

23:21:32 [Infraphylax]

denshi did you go to my school?

23:21:38 [Infraphylax]

;-D

23:21:43 [denshi]

that depends on what school you went to

23:21:56 [sash]

Same at my London uni.

23:21:57 [Infraphylax]

I went to SUNY Stony brook

23:22:37 [denshi]

I went to (and am returning to) UT Austin

23:24:08 [sash]

sash has quit ("Goodnight")

23:25:01 [denshi]

I disagree that theory must come before coding, though

23:25:25 [denshi]

theory doesn't make any sense without some experience grappling with the subject of the field

23:25:25 [Infraphylax]

that might be true..but in any case..planning should be first

23:25:31 [denshi]

no, not even that

23:26:05 [Infraphylax]

From personal experience...Once I hit upper division I didn't know where or how to start

23:26:29 [denshi]

coding is not a natural phenomenon. we don't have instinct for it, like we do for the physics of mechanics; or years of intuition like chemistry or foreign languages

23:26:42 [Infraphylax]

it's like as if someone at the department had an after-thought and decided to tack on some planning courses before we're let out into the real world

23:26:49 [denshi]

you have to code to develop the intution and see the problems that theory and planning solved

23:27:37 [denshi]

I think the biggest problem is, as I said, closed-source software has constructed and entire society of computer users that have never interacted with the source code to their favorite apps

23:27:48 [Infraphylax]

well, before we get into this huge debate...theory, coding and planning should co-exist in a single class

23:27:57 [denshi]

oh sure

23:28:05 [Infraphylax]

in my school that was not the case

23:28:41 [denshi]

I'm now ripping off Richard Gabriel, but the equivalent is like teaching English majors who are legally barred from reading Shakespeare

23:29:40 [Infraphylax]

most of the courses proceeded this way: Some rudimentary information about a problem is given --> Project assigned ---> Coding begins / More theory is taught --> Project is submitted --> Curve is applied