IRC log of openacs on 2002-06-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:04:19 [benadida]

benadida (~benadida@66-108-98-245.nyc.rr.com) has joined #openacs

00:04:39 [jim]

bena!

00:04:49 [benadida]

Hey there :)

00:04:56 [jim]

err, oops... too many as...

00:05:27 [jim]

hey, got a question for ya...

00:05:36 [jim]

do you think Berklee could make use of:

00:06:30 [jim]

http://12.155.172.152:8000/key-sig-drill/

00:06:31 [oacs-chump]

A: http://12.155.172.152:8000/key-sig-drill/ from jim

00:06:41 [jim]

chumpy :)

00:06:49 [jim]

forgot about him yet again

00:07:13 [benadida]

Interesting. I think Berklee has a pretty tight schedule overall.

00:07:26 [benadida]

but certainly you could ask them directly.

00:08:37 [benadida]

I think Berklee is going to be an excellent dotLRN case study

00:08:38 [jim]

I'm just now finishing up factoring out the question types; they can be used for drill questions of any subject where the answer can be randomly and algorithmically be determined

00:09:35 [jim]

any chance www/doc files could find their way into the dotlrn packages soonish? :)

00:10:41 [jim]

I mean... I went and printed the source of packages/dotlrn

00:10:49 [jim]

7 -hundred- pages

00:11:08 [benadida]

(hold, phone, be back in a sec)

00:18:04 [jim]

* jim pats his new laser printer :)

00:18:29 [davb]

thats alot of code.

00:18:41 [davb]

I am really getting to like emacs and dired mode.

00:18:49 [davb]

I can navigate and get alot of stuff done.

00:19:43 [benadida]

we are working on docs for sure, but it is going to take a while longer

00:20:06 [benadida]

our first step is getting PG runnability. Our next step developer docs

00:20:26 [jim]

how's the pg thing going?

00:20:42 [jim]

lookin good for 7/1? :)

00:21:24 [benadida]

7/1 for initial runnability will be tight, but we're getting there.

00:21:31 [benadida]

7/15 will be far better tested

00:24:34 [jim]

given classes would start in the fall, I think both schools will consider you/themselves ahead of schedule L:)

00:26:25 [jim]

what will need to be done between 7/15 and start of fall semester?

00:28:25 [benadida]

each school is working on that on their own

00:28:28 [benadida]

lots of testing and data migration mostly

00:29:14 [jim]

so you're saying that the project is basically complete? :)

00:29:48 [benadida]

well it will soon be complete for its first release at Sloan and Berklee, yes.

00:29:55 [benadida]

But I suspect many enhancements will come soon

00:32:24 [davb]

rbm: are you around?

00:33:38 [davb]

benadida: rbm and I are working on migrating openacs.org to openacs 4.5. I suspect there will be issues with broken links. Has anyone thought about that?

00:34:56 [rbm]

davb: hi

00:35:15 [davb]

hi rbm. wondering if you will have some time to think about the new site.

00:35:22 [davb]

now or later is fine.

00:35:32 [benadida]

I haven't thought about that (the links), but that's a great point. I have to jet out for now but I'll be back on later

00:35:35 [benadida]

benadida has left #openacs

00:35:39 [davb]

ok bye

00:41:20 [davb]

is there a command to clear the emacs minibuffer? its not on my cheat sheet.

00:43:32 [vinod]

do you mean like C-A C-K ?

00:43:51 [davb]

thats it !

00:43:55 [davb]

thanks

00:43:59 [vinod]

np :-)

01:04:30 [davb]

ok, now to test my new only search live revisions code version 2.0

01:04:47 [davb]

argh

01:04:52 [davb]

its broken.

01:04:53 [davb]

:(

01:05:02 [vinod]

doh

01:05:28 [vinod]

it will always break when you announce that you're gonna test it :-)

01:05:35 [davb]

oops

01:05:39 [davb]

intarray is not installed.

01:05:44 [davb]

i can not keep track of this stuff.

01:06:09 [vinod]

tell me bout it

01:06:18 [davb]

actually lib_int.so is in /usr/local/pgsql

01:06:28 [vinod]

i stop using openacs for a month and i feel like a complete newbie again

01:07:25 [davb]

aha

01:10:16 [davb]

ok. my load.sql pointed to the wrong place.

01:10:29 [davb]

thats what I get for installing from source and debian package

01:10:44 [davb]

ok.

01:13:32 [davb]

oops.

01:14:05 [davb]

ah. broken case statement

01:15:44 [davb]

uhoh, query returned more than one row.

01:15:45 [davb]

oops.

01:19:05 [davb]

darn, crashed aolserver.

01:20:17 [davb]

actually, crashed postgresql

01:20:20 [davb]

hmmm

01:20:26 [vinod]

wow, you're on a roll :-)

01:20:39 [davb]

time to take a break.

01:20:49 [davb]

well the procs to insert into the index seem to work.

01:25:45 [davb]

hmmm. i had this before.

01:25:47 [davb]

oh yeah.

01:26:05 [davb]

relkov that comes with postgresql will crash with openfts. use the one that openfts compiles.

01:28:18 [davb]

actually i couldnt find relkov installed at all.

01:28:45 [davb]

darn still crashes.

01:28:47 [davb]

hmmm

01:29:28 [vinod]

what statement is crashing it?

01:29:50 [davb]

select txt.tid as object_id,

01:29:50 [davb]

relor( 1.0, 0.1, '0', txt.tid, '{0,2,-1938594527}' ) as pos

01:29:50 [davb]

from txt

01:29:50 [davb]

where

01:29:50 [davb]

01:29:51 [davb]

( txt.fts_index @ '{7562529}' )

01:29:53 [davb]

01:29:55 [davb]

order by pos desc

01:29:57 [davb]

limit 10

01:29:59 [davb]

offset 0;

01:30:01 [davb]

its the relor

01:30:03 [davb]

i had the exact some problem with pg 7.2

01:30:27 [davb]

oops :)

01:30:29 [davb]

it is 7.2

01:30:35 [davb]

i need to recompile :)

01:32:41 [davb]

I had to pratically rewrite the .configure script for it to work with a debian 7.2

01:32:57 [vinod]

yeah, i remember doing that as well.

01:33:16 [davb]

i actally fixed it. I added for ifs for the debian settings

01:33:29 [davb]

probably should submit a patch or something :)

01:33:56 [vinod]

you said it, not me

01:34:02 [davb]

heh

01:34:04 [vinod]

* vinod hands davb his todo list

01:34:16 [davb]

it it works on the second install I will consider it.

01:36:47 [rbm]

I think the openacs-4 devel tree is broken

01:36:53 [rbm]

I can't finish installation

01:37:02 [davb]

oh, that seems unfun.

01:37:13 [rbm]

[24/Jun/2002:20:35:23][21672.4101][-conn0-] Error: Error sourcing /var/www/openacs-4/packages/acs-bootstrap-installer/installer/packages-install.tcl:

01:37:13 [rbm]

psql:acs-install.sql:247: ERROR: apm_packages_package_key_fk referential integrity violation - key referenced from apm_packages not found in apm_package_types

01:37:13 [rbm]

psql:acs-install.sql:254: ERROR: ExecAppend: Fail to add null value in not null attribute object_id

01:37:37 [davb]

weird.

01:38:27 [rbm]

I was trying to get my personal site on the devel tree

01:38:27 [davb]

how can i tell which aolserver I am running?

01:38:33 [davb]

oh tricky.

01:38:36 [rbm]

nsd -v

01:38:38 [vinod]

that's weird. i did an install yesterday from cvs and it worked

01:38:39 [davb]

cool.

01:39:11 [davb]

rbm: i read today that is is best to stick to a tagged branch. possibly easier to work with.

01:39:20 [davb]

are you doing the whole CVS thing with your site?

01:39:52 [rbm]

davb: I am eventually.

01:39:58 [davb]

ah. good idea.

01:40:02 [davb]

it works very well.

01:40:13 [davb]

One of these days I will update to some newer code.

01:40:17 [rbm]

What I never understood is how to sinc my site with the updates that have been done to the OACS tree

01:40:25 [rbm]

s/sinc/sync/

01:40:32 [davb]

read lars advice and the link i posted today.

01:40:39 [davb]

D:

01:40:39 [oacs-chump]

Label D not found.

01:40:51 [davb]

oops, chump must have rolled.

01:40:53 [vinod]

you mean sync changes back into the oacs tree or from oacs to your site?

01:40:59 [rbm]

vinod: the latter

01:40:59 [paje]

well, the latter is an advanced adjunct to a primer

01:41:06 [rbm]

paje: thanks

01:41:06 [paje]

de rien rbm

01:41:37 [davb]

rbm: you do a vendor checkin. and try to merge. if it breaks CVS gives you advice on how to merge sucessfully.

01:41:42 [vinod]

lars's advice works for that - http://www.pinds.com/acs-tips/openacs-setup

01:41:44 [davb]

verdot import.

01:41:51 [davb]

anyway, you get the idea :)

01:42:09 [davb]

http://www.piskorski.com/acs/ is good too.

01:42:21 [davb]

a little longer

01:43:35 [davb]

woohoo!!

01:43:44 [davb]

i got the openfts configure to run on the first try!

01:44:05 [vinod]

nice! you mean with your changes right?

01:44:20 [rbm]

Yon has been commiting quite a bit of stuff for the forums port, request processor cleanup, tree stuff, etc.

01:44:21 [davb]

yes.

01:44:27 [davb]

heh, make still doesn't work though :)

01:45:07 [davb]

../include/fts.h:16: tcl.h: No such file or directory

01:45:07 [davb]

make[1]: *** [Parser.o] Error 1

01:45:14 [vinod]

i remember that one

01:45:27 [vinod]

i had to edit Makefile.global i think

01:45:28 [rbm]

I've never setup openfts yet. I need to.

01:45:42 [davb]

I am working on making it easier for debian

01:46:11 [vinod]

this post, i think: http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00049C&topic_id=OpenACS&topic=11

01:46:13 [denshi]

davb: odds are tcl.h is found in a crazy include subdit

01:46:20 [denshi]

s/subdit/subdir/

01:46:24 [denshi]

is this on debian?

01:46:47 [davb]

its in /usr/include

01:47:25 [davb]

oh, hey ola already did the patch to the configure script.

01:47:27 [davb]

duh

01:47:28 [rbm]

davb: fts.h is in /usr/include?

01:47:36 [denshi]

huh. mine's in /usr/include/tcl8.3/tcl.h

01:47:42 [davb]

tcl.h

01:48:04 [davb]

not mine.

01:48:26 [vinod]

mine is in /usr/include/tcl8.3 also

01:48:29 [denshi]

distro?

01:48:41 [davb]

debian sid

01:48:57 [davb]

vinod: i thought it was already compiled, so I didn't read that part of your install. silly me.

01:49:20 [davb]

hey

01:49:26 [vinod]

np :-) i don't read anything i write either

01:49:40 [davb]

hey it didn't work, because i don;t have /usr/include/tcl8.3

01:49:41 [davb]

weird.

01:49:48 [vinod]

mine is debian sid too

01:50:09 [davb]

ah

01:50:14 [davb]

i don't have tcl8.3-dev installed

01:50:16 [davb]

silly me

01:50:25 [davb]

i wonder where that tcl.h came from.

01:50:38 [davb]

that fixed it.

01:52:43 [davb]

darn still crashes

01:52:45 [davb]

argh

01:52:46 [davb]

:)

01:54:30 [davb]

ah. i need to drop all that stuff in my db.

01:54:35 [davb]

time to reload the datamodel

01:55:04 [davb]

oops

01:55:05 [davb]

darn

01:55:12 [davb]

too many windows open

02:02:04 [oacs-chump]

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02:03:25 [jabba_]

jabba_ (~jabba@adsl-65-65-96-45.dsl.austtx.swbell.net) has joined #openacs

02:03:28 [abbaJ]

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02:03:34 [oacs-chump]

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02:03:41 [davb]

cool.

02:04:34 [davb]

argh.

02:04:44 [davb]

weird, my install is now not completing.

02:05:14 [davb]

ok WTF

02:05:22 [davb]

MY openacs install if getting that error rbm!

02:05:34 [davb]

you didn't update my code too did you :)?

02:05:40 [davb]

i thought this was beta.

02:06:48 [vinod]

did you just do an update?

02:06:57 [davb]

nope.

02:07:03 [vinod]

weird

02:07:09 [davb]

i just dropdb/createdbed. it was working 10 mins ago.

02:07:18 [vinod]

the gremlins are out in force tonight

02:07:36 [davb]

must be.

02:08:24 [rbm]

paje: we need you to sacrifice a lizzard to the internet g0ds

02:08:25 [paje]

rbm: sorry...

02:08:29 [rbm]

All is lost!

02:09:42 [vinod]

ok i'm gonna tempt fate and try to install from the cvs head

02:09:56 [rbm]

[24/Jun/2002:21:09:29][23411.4101][-conn0-] Error: Error sourcing /var/www/lbn-dev/packages/acs-bootstrap-installer/installer/packages-install.tcl:

02:09:56 [rbm]

psql:acs-install.sql:247: ERROR: apm_packages_package_key_fk referential integrity violation - key referenced from apm_packages not found in apm_package_types

02:09:56 [rbm]

psql:acs-install.sql:254: ERROR: ExecAppend: Fail to add null value in not null attribute object_id

02:10:03 [davb]

Acs-content-repository not installed.

02:10:05 [davb]

woah

02:10:09 [rbm]

Same error with a freshly checked out copy

02:10:16 [rbm]

davb: Same error I get here.

02:10:22 [rbm]

Seems like HEAD is foobar'd

02:10:28 [davb]

yeah, but I didn't check out today.

02:10:37 [davb]

this is from last week, and it worked a few mins ago.

02:10:54 [rbm]

davb: Are you sure you didn't update? I know Yon has been messing with the bootstrap installer

02:10:56 [davb]

oh wait.

02:11:03 [davb]

i fooled around with the CR :)

02:11:12 [davb]

probably my fault.

02:11:23 [rbm]

I got a lot of *ABORT STATE*

02:11:23 [rbm]

*ABORT STATE*

02:11:32 [rbm]

during the CR installation

02:11:34 [davb]

i am looking into it.

02:11:51 [davb]

not one abort in my log...

02:13:22 [rbm]

davb: I get it in the /packages-install? page

02:13:28 [davb]

me too.

02:16:05 [davb]

argh,

02:16:07 [davb]

hmmmm

02:16:16 [davb]

i just need my copies of search and etp20

02:22:11 [davb]

yeah, i made it past acs-cr

02:22:31 [davb]

weird. maybe I did update the code, but I didn't think so.

02:22:31 [rbm]

gkrellm is nice

02:23:02 [rbm]

I'm installing the stable branch. I need to get this rolling soon.

02:23:23 [vinod]

rbm: i like gkrellm a lot

02:23:34 [rbm]

vinod: did you see my screenshot?

02:23:37 [vinod]

esp on my laptop since it shows battery charge etc

02:23:41 [vinod]

no

02:23:41 [rbm]

vinod: Yeah

02:24:18 [davb]

* davb apt-gets gkrellm

02:24:56 [rbm]

I have it showing CPU usage, Processes, CPU and System temperature, Fans speeds, HD usage, eth0 Usage, memory, swap, uptime

02:25:09 [rbm]

Oh, and calendar info :)

02:25:10 [davb]

neat

02:25:24 [davb]

WTF is up with "4 users" hmmm

02:25:27 [davb]

should I be worried?

02:25:35 [vinod]

rbm: cool :-)

02:25:52 [davb]

or might some of them be processed running as a particular user?

02:26:01 [rbm]

vinod: http://www.brasileiro.net/roberto/shots/gkrellm.png

02:26:07 [Beatnik]

w

02:26:08 [Beatnik]

ack

02:26:10 [Beatnik]

boo?

02:26:10 [paje]

oooh! ya skared me!

02:26:17 [Beatnik]

boo?

02:26:17 [paje]

oooh! ya skared me!

02:26:18 [Beatnik]

haha

02:26:20 [Beatnik]

paje!

02:26:24 [davb]

cool, it can check your mail

02:26:29 [rbm]

hey Beatnick

02:26:31 [Beatnik]

paje, check my mail

02:26:32 [paje]

Beatnik: sorry...

02:26:34 [rbm]

Have you seen mbr?

02:26:36 [Beatnik]

Hey Roberto

02:26:44 [vinod]

rbm: nice!

02:26:47 [Beatnik]

yes yes I have

02:26:51 [rbm]

Beatnik: BTW, my CPU stays at around 27 C.

02:26:51 [Beatnik]

what's up?

02:26:56 [Beatnik]

That's excellent

02:27:11 [Beatnik]

You must have a very good computer case with excellent airflow

02:27:22 [rbm]

If I don't have my air conditioning on, it usually stays at 30.

02:27:46 [rbm]

It's a nice case, and I tried to keep air flow flowing nicely.

02:27:53 [rbm]

<-- loves screwless cases

02:28:07 [Beatnik]

:)

02:28:36 [davb]

rbm: which case is it?

02:29:17 [rbm]

davb: hmmmph... I don't remember.

02:29:27 [davb]

ok :)

02:30:38 [Beatnik]

Ok

02:30:40 [Beatnik]

I have questions

02:30:47 [Beatnik]

Beatnik is now known as Inquizitophylax

02:31:04 [Inquizitophylax]

Say I have a computer with 2 hard drives

02:31:09 [Inquizitophylax]

a 15 gig and a 20 gig

02:31:26 [vinod]

my install worked. cvs update'd today

02:31:57 [Inquizitophylax]

the 20 gig hard drive has windows on it (which I like and don't want nuked)

02:32:06 [Inquizitophylax]

The 15 gig hard drive has Mandrake Linux (blech)

02:32:15 [Inquizitophylax]

i want to get rid of Mandrake and put gentoo on

02:32:42 [davb]

Inquizitophylax: what boot loader does gentoo use?

02:33:08 [Inquizitophylax]

I also do not want to remove my har

02:33:11 [Inquizitophylax]

err

02:33:27 [Inquizitophylax]

I also don't want to keep taking my computer case in and out

02:33:31 [Inquizitophylax]

Gentoo uses Grub

02:33:34 [rbm]

vinod: weird. Which PG?

02:33:36 [davb]

cool

02:33:41 [davb]

grub==good

02:33:50 [davb]

daveb is on 7.2

02:33:53 [davb]

.?

02:34:04 [Inquizitophylax]

So basically, is there a way to disable the windows hard drive and only play with my Linux drive

02:34:09 [vinod]

7.1.3

02:34:21 [davb]

Inquizitophylax: oh. i usually unplug it. its the safest way.

02:34:23 [Inquizitophylax]

Also, my Linux drive is hdc

02:34:30 [davb]

you can disable it in the BIOS.

02:34:37 [Inquizitophylax]

That's what I was thinking

02:34:39 [davb]

say primary master NONE primary slave NONE etc...

02:34:53 [Inquizitophylax]

but somehow my computer can still boot from the windows drive sometimes

02:35:16 [davb]

set the boot drive in the BIOS also.

02:35:23 [Inquizitophylax]

Right

02:35:27 [davb]

the safest way is to unplug it.

02:35:33 [Inquizitophylax]

How badly can I trash that?

02:35:57 [davb]

as long as you don't repartition it, you should be ok.

02:36:09 [davb]

if its NTFS linux can't write NTFS anyway :)

02:36:26 [Inquizitophylax]

it is NTFS

02:36:40 [Inquizitophylax]

ok brb then

02:36:43 [davb]

but it can overwrite the mbr or something

02:37:07 [rbm]

Is Lar's ratings stuff available anywhere?

02:37:51 [Inquizitophylax]

just a quick question

02:37:57 [Wookiephylax]

Wookiephylax has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

02:37:57 [Inquizitophylax]

a sector is 512K?

02:38:22 [Inquizitophylax]

so 2 sectors is a megabyte?

02:38:50 [vinod]

rbm: yup - http://www.pinds.com/lars/whats-this-site-running

02:39:19 [Inquizitophylax]

ok cool

02:39:20 [Inquizitophylax]

brb

02:39:51 [davb]

i suspect a sector is 512 bytes, bit it might depend on the drive. i haven't been a hardware nerd in a long time.

02:40:03 [rbm]

vinod: Yeah, just found it.

02:40:58 [davb]

someone is working on general-ratings also

02:41:28 [davb]

rbm: we need to strategize on installing openfts on the openacs.org box.

02:46:08 [Inquizitophylax]

arg

02:46:49 [Inquizitophylax]

units = cylinders of 16065 * 512

02:46:52 [Inquizitophylax]

what the hell is a unit?

02:47:39 [Inquizitophylax]

Anyone?

02:48:04 [vinod]

sorry - no clue

02:48:49 [Inquizitophylax]

I'm trying to figure out partitions using fdisk

02:48:54 [Inquizitophylax]

It doesn't have megabytes :(

02:49:12 [rbm]

davb: indeed

02:49:23 [rbm]

Inquizitophylax: do you have cfdisk?

02:49:30 [Inquizitophylax]

no

02:49:52 [Inquizitophylax]

Just fdisk

02:50:00 [Inquizitophylax]

once I figure out what the hell a unit is I'm good

02:50:17 [rbm]

I haven't used fdisk in a very long time

02:51:12 [Inquizitophylax]

yeah no kidding

02:51:18 [Inquizitophylax]

I have no idea what the units are

02:51:30 [davb]

that is wacky.

02:52:36 [Inquizitophylax]

wait

02:52:46 [Inquizitophylax]

can't I just use my existing partitions from Mandrake?

02:52:53 [davb]

sure.

02:53:46 [Inquizitophylax]

hmm

02:57:45 [Inquizitophylax]

ahhh crud

02:57:59 [Inquizitophylax]

I messed up sizes

02:59:49 [davb]

weird. my etp is now broken.

03:00:37 [davb]

nm :)

03:01:09 [davb]

argh

03:01:12 [davb]

another reload!

03:18:54 [talli]

paje, seen davb ?

03:18:54 [paje]

davb was last seen on #openacs 17 minutes and 43 seconds ago, saying: another reload! [Mon Jun 24 22:01:00 2002]

03:26:51 [davb]

hi talli

03:27:07 [talli]

hey davb

04:20:07 [davb]

good night

04:20:09 [davb]

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04:36:41 [vinod]

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11:43:32 [davb]

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11:44:46 [davb]

hi there

12:34:01 [denshi]

ooom

12:44:47 [davb]

hi denshi

12:46:38 [denshi]

morning davb

12:47:25 [davb]

hmmm. my case statement is not returning anything when the test is false.

13:16:17 [davb]

brb

13:16:19 [davb]

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13:32:55 [donb]

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13:36:29 [talli]

hey donb

13:36:29 [donb]

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13:38:23 [davb]

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13:52:30 [donb]

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13:56:09 [k2pts]

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13:57:11 [davb]

hi donb and k2pts

13:57:15 [k2pts]

hey davb

13:57:28 [davb]

* davb thouroughly hates MS today

13:57:28 [k2pts]

hey donb

13:57:40 [k2pts]

heh, what happened?

13:58:34 [davb]

I am trying to install an update for MS access (don't ask :), the only way is thriough windows update, except it is not an option when windows update scans. I magically got it to work on one computer, but I have no idea what secret incantation made it work.

13:59:29 [k2pts]

don't ask me, I've left gates-world long time ago

13:59:39 [davb]

k2pts: i am programming into search (my copy) support for "searchable_p". if the searchacle_p parameter is not included in the datasource, it assumes 'T'

13:59:54 [k2pts]

yes

14:00:10 [davb]

btw, for a boolean fields in acs-sc, should I check for all the popular values of tue? ie T t TRUE true 1 etc...?

14:00:15 [k2pts]

you'll also need to modify some tables

14:00:43 [k2pts]

for example, cr_revisions (or cr_items) to support a searchable_p field

14:01:11 [k2pts]

that way you can provide this kind of information to the service contract implementation

14:01:23 [k2pts]

anything tcl supports (re: boolean)

14:01:39 [davb]

ah. ok. I was just so far programming the only search live_revisions part.

14:01:44 [davb]

ok re boolean.

14:02:09 [k2pts]

you can do the live_revisions part by having a searchable_p field

14:02:15 [davb]

dob: congratulations on greenpeace.org. Tell everyone. it looks great!

14:02:28 [davb]

k2pts: true.

14:02:39 [davb]

s/dob/donb

14:03:05 [k2pts]

congrats donb (is he around, I noticed you saying hi but ...)

14:03:10 [donb]

Thanks ... I'm busy fixing a couple of problems due to a misunderstanding of when Oracle assigns "rownum" (before "order by", sigh)

14:03:12 [talli]

hey donb

14:03:13 [talli]

hey k2pts

14:03:17 [k2pts]

hey talli

14:03:22 [davb]

hi talli

14:03:27 [talli]

hey davb

14:03:30 [donb]

So I'm around but not paying much attention. The site is looking pretty good ...

14:03:39 [talli]

donb: the site looks great!

14:03:53 [talli]

glad to see such a fine looking leftie site runnng the best software toolkit around!

14:04:14 [talli]

what kind of traffic are you guys expecting?

14:04:35 [talli]

just so that i know and can add that to my salesman trivia bag

14:05:55 [k2pts]

donb: did you use msgcat at all for the GP site... I'm giving it some thought these days among other things for the system I told you about and it looks pretty good. My feeling is that the current acs-lang package provides similar functions found in the msgcat package...

14:06:58 [donb]

We used a customized acs-lang integrated with the templating system (#package_key.message_key# looks up and inserts the correct local message into the HTML page) it is working well for us and I intend to mainstream the notion

14:07:47 [donb]

Our non-techie web editors have had no problem using this approach as they just need to hack adp pages and chase "translation missing' links to supply correct messages whenever they see them in their browser

14:08:48 [donb]

The main thing we did to acs-lang was change from a flat key space to the package_key.message_key scheme, since we have so many messages. Simplifies life for our editors

14:10:46 [k2pts]

msgcat also supports this (using namespaces)

14:11:14 [k2pts]

the only thing is that you need to have a table for (flexibility and) feeding the data to msgcat

14:12:50 [davb]

ah, i see msgcat is a tcl package

14:13:28 [k2pts]

yeap

14:14:09 [davb]

that leads back to fixing aolserver support for tcl packages :)

14:14:22 [k2pts]

not necessarily

14:14:35 [k2pts]

you could cut&paste to an openacs package and that's it

14:14:57 [davb]

true.

14:15:23 [davb]

i didn't want to do that for tclsoap because I wanted to more easily track the changes.

14:15:55 [davb]

but maybe i will because it seems quite a few people are looking for it.

14:16:28 [k2pts]

davb, you could also load aolserver modules from the nsd config file (under modules)

14:16:41 [davb]

yes.

14:16:42 [k2pts]

something like ns_param msgcat tcl

14:16:50 [davb]

that I know.

14:17:09 [k2pts]

ok :)

14:17:10 [davb]

if there is more than one file in the package, you need to rename them in order of loading.

14:17:15 [donb]

Show what's the advantage of msgcat given that acs-lang works perfectly well, caches all the messages so no database queries are involved, and (now at least) has a nice web-based UI?

14:19:07 [donb]

One advantage of acs-lang is that messages are cached systemwide, it looks like msgcat sets messages using namespaces, which implies one per interp, which implies work is needed to propagate them to all threads in the AOLserver context

14:19:49 [k2pts]

I don't know (none I guess -- note that I haven't seen the new package you're talking about). I would prefer msgcat over acs-lang (the tcl libraries to compare similar things) anytime. Someone has already gave some thought to msgcat extensively and it looks pretty good...

14:20:48 [k2pts]

nope, I don't think so... at least, not if you are using Zoran's fixed namespace.tcl file...

14:22:06 [donb]

Maybe so. ACS lang works so well that not using makes no sense, really. There's certainly no efficiency advantage to msgcat and someone would have to duplicate the web based UI that already exists in acs-lang to make it actually useful in the OpenACS context

14:22:51 [donb]

Unless you think the world is OK with static message files rather than dynamic messages and translations, which in the case of GP at least most certainly isn't true. Why reinvent a web-based UI to a different package when we already have a perfectly functional solution?

14:23:37 [k2pts]

I'm not suggesting to replace the acs-lang package...

14:24:05 [davb]

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14:24:37 [k2pts]

I'm also not suggesting that msgcat supports only static message files... I said that msgcat will only provide the tcl libraries that together with a table to provide the data could be a nice combination

14:26:03 [jkhong]

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14:28:13 [donb]

O

14:28:37 [k2pts]

0 means no?

14:28:38 [donb]

I'm busy, sorry, just came back, weird CVS stuff to sort out

14:28:48 [donb]

It means I hit newline by accident

14:30:04 [donb]

I guess I just have a hard time seeing what switching to msgcat would fix given that we're not having any problems whatsoever with acs-lang and that nsv and ns_cache are the preferred methods for sharing stuff in the AOLserver context

14:30:08 [donb]

Whatever ...

14:30:31 [jkhong]

Hi! Does anyone have any tips on coaxing browsers to cache css files? Server logs showing http 200 response for every page I visit.

14:30:34 [donb]

The tcl end is actually very simple and the template integration is the most useful aspect

14:30:49 [k2pts]

donb: would you like me to email them (the pvt msgs) and get back to me when you have more time?

14:31:04 [donb]

Sure

14:32:00 [davb]

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14:32:42 [davb]

k2pts: one more searchable_p question. i should program in the package (etp in this case) to set searchable_p according to the package requirements?

14:32:44 [k2pts]

donb: msg sent: I've just cut&pasted from the chat window. I hope it's ok.

14:32:55 [k2pts]

davb: yes

14:33:03 [davb]

ok.

14:33:11 [davb]

cool. i am learning.

14:33:12 [k2pts]

you could also change the status of a content_item independently

14:33:26 [davb]

right.

14:33:48 [davb]

i though of that. so i could say "this one item is not searchable no matter what the revision"

14:33:53 [k2pts]

that is you can have a general strategy for setting the searchable_p flag for a content type but you can always disable/enable for a particular item

14:34:07 [davb]

ok we are thinking the same.

14:36:16 [k2pts]

anyway, have to head out (I should prepare the documentation for the long-awaited openfts release)

14:36:24 [k2pts]

l8r

14:36:25 [k2pts]

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14:41:02 [donb]

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14:42:24 [rbm]

ooom

14:42:31 [rbm]

Seem like I missed donb and k2pts

14:43:14 [davb]

hi rbm

14:44:13 [jkhong]

Prelim. findings: aolserver is caching css files but not dynamically generated ones. Is it the correct behavior or is there a setting for this?

14:44:27 [jkhong]

whoops, I mean ...is caching STATIS css files...

14:44:32 [jkhong]

STATIC

14:46:17 [davb]

jkhong: the dynamically generated ones must be sending a different last modified header every time.

14:47:07 [jkhong]

davb: Yeah, I think you must be right. Is there a way I can work around this?

14:47:50 [davb]

are you using openacs?

14:48:30 [davb]

there should be a way to cache the css code on the server side, so that it doesn't regenerate every time. and passes the correct header.

14:49:00 [jkhong]

Whoops, yes! :) OpenACS 3.2.5 with Aolserver3.3+ad13 together with rl_returnz

14:49:33 [davb]

ok. the css generation code must be yours right? i didn't think there was any in there.

14:50:09 [jkhong]

yeah, just some simple tcl to to set different font sizes and slightly different styles for older/newer browsers.

14:51:32 [davb]

interesting. i don't know if there is a built in solution.

14:52:23 [davb]

i think there is some caching code in openacs 4, but I haven't looked at it.

14:52:38 [rbm]

davb: if I wanted to install searching, what should I read?

14:53:28 [davb]

read vinod's documentation "Next Steps" section.

14:53:35 [rbm]

ok

14:53:47 [rbm]

I'm finally porting my personal site to OACS 4.

14:53:49 [davb]

you will need to patch the .configure script too i think. let me look...

14:53:54 [jkhong]

Thanks davb. I'll try looking into openacs4 and see if I can find any hints there.

14:54:09 [rbm]

That includes the PostgreSQL Cookbook. I want to make it editable, searchable, and rateable

14:54:13 [davb]

ok. also try the openacs bboards. someone smarter than me is probably reading them.

14:54:16 [rbm]

oh, and moderated

14:54:18 [davb]

rbm cool.

14:54:20 [jkhong]

BTW, I noticed the 4.5 release on the news. Good job everyone!

14:54:49 [jkhong]

Later!

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14:55:20 [denshi]

who was that masked hacker?

14:57:31 [davb]

rbm: try my configure script for Search-OpenFTS-tcl-0.2 at http://www.thedesignexperience.org/configure

14:58:47 [rbm]

davb: okay

14:59:01 [davb]

i added checks to look in the usual debian places

15:01:20 [davb]

and don't forget to change makefile.global according to vinod's docs

15:01:38 [rbm]

I really need to package this all up for Debian

15:06:54 [jkhong]

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15:09:22 [rbm]

* rbm studies the groups api

15:11:12 [rbm]

I wonder if I should worry about this or just do some quick group stuff myself...

15:11:19 [rbm]

but that is not the right way (tm)

15:11:46 [davb]

read tediously explained again. every time i read it i understand a little bit more.

15:11:48 [davb]

:)

15:13:07 [rbm]

davb: I've read tediously explained many times. But it seems that if I go a month or more without reading it, I "lose" it again

15:13:44 [davb]

me too. i forgot all the stuff since last week, but right after i read it, i thought it made sense.

15:14:18 [rbm]

what I'm trying to do is create, upon my Cookbook package creation, a group of Cookbook Moderators. Then each cookbook will have several sections, and I want to create subgroups of Cookbook Moderators, one for each section.

15:14:44 [rbm]

I'm trying to make this Cookbook package pretty generic, so that people can use it for other things.

15:16:13 [davb]

rbm: hmmm

15:16:29 [davb]

is a group the right way?

15:16:33 [davb]

maybe.

15:16:58 [davb]

most of the other packages use custom permissions for that kind of thing.

15:19:43 [rbm]

davb: you don't think it's the right way?

15:20:07 [rbm]

I don't want to go through the mess of making each recipe/section an object and all that this implies

15:20:25 [davb]

ah

15:20:28 [davb]

good point.

15:20:35 [davb]

i think what you want is an application group.

15:20:56 [rbm]

I really don't think there's a need in this case to make recipes an object.

15:21:01 [rbm]

s/an//

15:21:15 [davb]

if you want them searchable you need it.

15:21:29 [rbm]

Oh?

15:21:29 [paje]

Oh are you afraid the /. guys are going to sue us for stealing their hard work?

15:21:47 [davb]

i am pretty sure.

15:22:05 [rbm]

oh crap

15:22:11 [rbm]

And I was trying to get this done quickly

15:22:26 [davb]

it picks the serivce contractt implementation based on the object type

15:22:43 [rbm]

I haven't looked at searching at all yet

15:25:22 [rbm]

* rbm sighs

15:26:06 [davb]

rbm: this sounds like we need a generalized "suggest-an-item" package

15:26:24 [davb]

news, cookbook, there are probably others.

15:26:40 [davb]

i am trying to work it into etp, but I am not so sure its the best way.

15:26:47 [davb]

i can't make a decision :)

15:26:51 [cro]

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15:27:41 [davb]

shit.

15:27:43 [rbm]

davb: What do you mean "suggest-an-item"?

15:28:13 [davb]

a package that accepts user submitted items, which are then moderated and appoved before display.

15:28:39 [davb]

i think I am running into the compaq, hp, and dell decided to screw up windows xp so windows update won't work correctly.

15:28:45 [markd2]

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15:29:04 [davb]

* davb is not happy about this.

15:31:20 [rbm]

weird. There are 0 files under the Tcl folder in th openfts directory.

15:31:24 [rbm]

Anybody knows why?

15:31:46 [rbm]

Oh, it's under openfts/tcl

15:32:38 [rbm]

I think I'll grab the CVS version. Dan has made changes as little as 3 months ago, whereas the downloadable hasn't been updated since September

15:34:47 [davb]

rbm: the cvs version is TOTALLY differfent

15:34:51 [davb]

and won't work with openacs

15:34:59 [davb]

actually hang on.

15:35:06 [davb]

there is a bug in the setptember version.

15:35:49 [davb]

not surprisingly some other people are having the same problem as me with windows xp, but there is no solution

15:36:38 [rbm]

davb: Oh really?

15:38:10 [davb]

yes. the new one uses the tsearch module for postgresql instead of intarray.

15:38:24 [rbm]

oh, that's right.

15:40:19 [talli]

hey guys

15:40:19 [jkhong]

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15:40:49 [talli]

wow, the bboards have really picked up today

15:44:32 [talli]

rbm: you around?

15:44:36 [talli]

paje, seen rbm ?

15:44:36 [paje]

rbm was last seen on #openacs 6 minutes and 11 seconds ago, saying: oh, that's right. [Tue Jun 25 10:38:11 2002]

15:44:43 [rbm]

talli: yes

15:44:58 [talli]

have you ever heard of someone in the PG community named Justin Clift?

15:45:15 [rbm]

Yes. He maintains techdocs.postgresql.org

15:45:17 [talli]

he's got a postgresql.org email, so i figure he knows what he's doing

15:45:27 [talli]

is he good?

15:45:38 [rbm]

in what sense?

15:45:57 [talli]

is he a good guy? knows what he's doing, get's shit done, well connected, etc

15:46:09 [talli]

he's interested in momentum

15:46:26 [rbm]

I don't know how good he is as a programmer, etc. I know he's done some good stuff on the PG docs side.

15:46:37 [talli]

docs are as important as programming!

15:46:58 [talli]

if you have good docs, you can always get good programmers, i figure

15:47:11 [talli]

like permissions tediously explained :)

15:47:31 [rbm]

We're screwed then :)

15:47:39 [talli]

uh oh

15:47:50 [talli]

yeah, your conversation made me think somethings not good

15:48:00 [talli]

you guys shouldn't have to read it once a month in order to remember how it works

15:48:20 [rbm]

We've said it many times that the permissions system is in need of an overhaul

15:48:22 [davb]

talli: it is the api. it does not have hooks for common tasks.

15:48:38 [rbm]

It's simply too difficult to understand and get a hang of it.

15:49:05 [rbm]

We need to make it simpler by either revamping everything (probably not happenning) or making good UIs and APIs for common tasks

15:50:02 [jkhong]

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15:50:31 [rbm]

davb: I'm getting this error (that I'd never seen before) while running OpenFTS' configure:

15:50:32 [rbm]

./configure: test: =: unary operator expected

15:50:32 [rbm]

configure: error: directory: doesn't exist

15:50:54 [davb]

rbm: ./configure --help

15:51:05 [davb]

you must specify --with-pgsql --with-aolserver-src and --with-tcl

15:51:30 [rbm]

oh, forgot --with-pgsql

15:51:47 [rbm]

Had been following Vinod's docs blindly

15:51:58 [davb]

i didn't fix the configure script quite that much, just enough to make it work :)

15:52:36 [rbm]

What does he mean by "root directory of postgresql installation"? The PG data dir? The include dir? The docs dir? the bin dir?

15:53:01 [davb]

sory :)

15:53:38 [rbm]

hmm?

15:53:42 [davb]

sorry.

15:54:00 [davb]

its the postgresql install dir. /usr/lib/postgresql or /usr/local/pgsql

15:56:11 [talli]

hey davb, can you come into #momentum for a sec?

15:56:15 [davb]

sure

16:06:07 [jkhong_]

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16:06:42 [rbm]

davb: hmmmm, looking at the news package, I think I'll make my cookbook package hoop up inte the CR>

16:06:44 [rbm]

s/>/./

16:07:31 [davb]

good idea.

16:08:48 [rbm]

OpenACS has some awesome stuff in it, we just need to document and package it better, IMHO

16:09:33 [rbm]

davb: I'm all pumped up about that list of things we are working on. Let's not let it fiddle and die.

16:09:56 [talli]

davb: this article might interest you

16:09:58 [talli]

http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/library/ws-wsrp/?dwzone=usability

16:09:58 [oacs-chump]

B: http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/library/ws-wsrp/?dwzone=usability from talli

16:09:59 [davb]

rbm: i am pretty much dedicating all my time to openacs right now :)

16:10:04 [davb]

after kids sleep anyway

16:10:07 [rbm]

davb: you rock!

16:10:25 [talli]

B: Web services for Remote Portals

16:10:25 [oacs-chump]

added comment B1

16:10:28 [davb]

and hopefuly the top-secret project will come back online in august with some $$$

16:10:30 [talli]

B: As Web Services for Remote Portals include presentation, service providers determine how their content and applications are visualized for end-users and to which degree adaptation, transcoding, translation etc may be allowed.

16:10:30 [oacs-chump]

added comment B2

16:13:43 [davb]

that looks interesting

16:14:18 [davb]

we need some articles explaining why acs-sc is the way to go for services packages instead of the old tcl api stuff.

16:20:05 [rbm]

We need an OpenACS Systems Journal

16:20:20 [rbm]

So people can write these articles and have a place to post them

16:20:43 [vinod]

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16:21:07 [davb]

oh cool.

16:21:23 [davb]

another application for suggest-an-item

16:21:35 [rbm]

indeed

16:22:30 [rbm]

bbiab

16:22:38 [davb]

we also need upload an html/text file into the db to be displayed.

16:23:14 [markd2]

* markd2 suggests talli write an anti-pant screed

16:23:54 [davb]

that is why it will have a submit-approval workflow.

16:25:57 [talli]

we can use the peer review package

16:27:22 [jkhong]

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16:27:53 [davb]

can i see that?

16:29:00 [talli]

journals.museatech.net

16:29:15 [talli]

actually, john seq is writing up a case study about peer review/workflow

16:33:56 [davb]

cool!

16:34:40 [davb]

wow. that is nice.

16:34:51 [vinod]

can't wait to see that case study

16:35:11 [davb]

talli: did you see the post lars made about dynamically generating forms etc?

16:35:11 [vinod]

how is the workflow done - is it acs-workflow?

16:41:06 [vinod]

davb: did you get the datamodel to load last night?

16:41:15 [talli]

davb: i missed the post, but i know that his work is an extension of luke's

16:41:31 [talli]

and that he's built them as a result of a project he's working on for us

16:44:08 [davb]

well then, cool :)

16:44:21 [davb]

vinod: yes.

16:44:39 [talli]

vinod: yes, the peer review system is built using workflow

16:44:42 [davb]

but after discussing with neopjytos, i am changing my approach. :)

16:44:46 [vinod]

davb: cool. cuz i tried on 7.2.1 and it worked (with the mods to the configure script et al)

16:44:58 [vinod]

talli: cool

16:45:04 [davb]

it was just me :)

16:46:49 [vinod]

so, once you submit a manuscript and changes are requested. do you resubmit new versions, or can you change versions over the web, or both?

16:47:07 [vinod]

or maybe i should just wait for johns's case study :-)

16:47:45 [talli]

yeah, i think john's case study would be better

16:47:54 [talli]

unfortuantely, the tool was never totally finished

16:47:55 [talli]

it

16:48:14 [talli]

john is a super top-notch hacker so it's in great shape

16:48:24 [talli]

but we had to leave it for lack of funding

16:48:32 [talli]

we're working to get more money to finish it off, thoguh

16:51:09 [vinod]

sounds great

16:59:06 [markd2]

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17:01:51 [jkhong__]

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17:02:38 [davb]

* davb is defeated by windows XP

17:05:34 [cro]

* cro plays Taps for Dabvb and sends him a Debian installer disk.

17:05:47 [vinod]

i think i hear billg laughing maniacally somewhere

17:05:56 [davb]

i love debian. now to convice the boss.

17:08:31 [davb]

aha!

17:08:34 [davb]

i found it!

17:08:39 [davb]

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/release.asp?ReleaseID=38001&area=search&ordinal=2

17:08:40 [oacs-chump]

C: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/release.asp?ReleaseID=38001&area=search&ordinal=2 from davb

17:08:44 [davb]

its hidden as a download.

17:09:02 [jkhong_]

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17:09:55 [davb]

rule #1 never believe anything a MS product tells you.

17:10:19 [jkhong__]

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17:28:41 [denshi]

rule #2 is?

17:30:21 [vinod]

never believe davb when he says he is defeated

17:41:45 [denshi]

that's a good rule

17:44:50 [markd2]

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17:57:30 [davb]

:)

18:33:48 [davb]

rbm: don't forget you need to fix the bug in openacs 0.2

18:39:03 [davb]

we need more parameters in pl/pgsql!

18:39:44 [vinod]

* vinod agrees

18:40:05 [davb]

i am ok. i am modifying cr_revisions, but the longest cr_revision__new is 11 params.

18:40:21 [davb]

make that 12.

18:41:01 [vinod]

yeah - the problem comes when you build apps on top of the CR and you want to have the flexibility to change all the CR params as well as app-defined ones

18:41:09 [davb]

ah.

18:41:25 [davb]

pl/pgsql needs named pararms, defaults, and optional parameters.

18:41:29 [davb]

brb :)

18:43:54 [davb]

hmmm.

18:44:06 [davb]

i really hate to create another version of content_revision__new.

18:44:11 [rbm]

ooom

18:44:16 [davb]

hi rbm

18:45:49 [rbm]

what fix in openacs 0.2{

18:46:04 [davb]

i have to find the line#....

18:46:31 [rbm]

* rbm goes back to haxq0ring on Javascript-in-pdf

18:57:03 [davb]

vinod: do you recall where the change goes? it believe it was a missing =

18:59:02 [vinod]

sorry - what are we talking bout again?

18:59:07 [davb]

:)

18:59:10 [davb]

nm i found it.

18:59:17 [vinod]

cool :-)

18:59:17 [davb]

line 367 in fts_index.tcl

18:59:36 [rbm]

I got nsfts to compile btw

18:59:50 [davb]

for {set i 1} {$i < $self(ING)} {incr i} {

18:59:54 [davb]

should be

18:59:56 [davb]

for {set i 1} {$i <= $self(ING)} {incr i} {

19:00:01 [davb]

rbm: cool

19:00:44 [vinod]

davb: where is fts_index.tcl? I don't remember making that change and my install last night worked

19:01:15 [davb]

its in Search-OpenFTS-0.2/fts_index.tcl right in the openfts root dir

19:01:19 [davb]

source root that is

19:02:21 [davb]

it doesn't necessarily show up right away.

19:02:36 [vinod]

ahh - ok

19:02:41 [davb]

i should add that as a comment to the doc.

19:03:16 [vinod]

yeah - please do. i'm sure i'll forget it within the hour otherwise :-)

19:03:35 [davb]

hmmm, i don't see a comment link.

19:04:03 [davb]

just on that page.

19:05:18 [vinod]

you mean here? http://openacs.org/doc/openacs-4/nextsteps.html

19:05:23 [davb]

yes

19:05:28 [vinod]

i see a comment link

19:05:42 [vinod]

http://openacs.org/comments/add.tcl?page_id=403

19:12:54 [davb]

ok i added it

19:13:12 [davb]

weird. there is another comment

19:13:20 [davb]

from april!

19:13:25 [davb]

that i did not see before.

19:29:29 [davb]

bbl

19:29:32 [davb]

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20:19:39 [lilo]

[GlobalNotice] Hi all. I've been mentioning the nonprofit quite a bit in the last few months and I decided it was probably time to give you more details. Please take a look and see what you think. Thanks.

20:20:05 [lilo]

[GlobalNotice] Oops, the url: http://lilo.sargasso.net/nonprofit.html . Thanks.

20:59:00 [cro]

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21:56:23 [talli]

hey guys

21:56:26 [talli]

anyone around?

21:56:49 [rbm]

oom

21:58:02 [talli]

hey rbm

21:58:15 [talli]

will you be at linuxworld for sure?

22:01:22 [rbm]

Almost certain

22:20:54 [bduell]

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22:39:16 [talli]

i would really love to use evolution

22:39:21 [talli]

however, i can never get it to work

22:39:25 [talli]

same thing with openoffice

22:39:34 [talli]

i have yet to be able to install them and get them to work flawlessly

22:40:06 [talli]

openoffice is a massive program and this is it's first release, so i am patient since it's difficult getting it to work on multiple platforms

22:40:14 [talli]

evolution is the same thing

22:40:19 [talli]

but it's annoying

22:40:48 [talli]

the weird thing is that evolution crashes and points me to visit the GNOME Application Crash page

22:40:53 [talli]

but i can't find the fucker!

22:46:25 [vinod]

i haven't tried evolution, but i used the debs available for openoffice and they worked perfectly.

22:46:38 [talli]

i'm using gentoo

22:46:41 [vinod]

now i can see all those idiotic powerpoint presentations that people keep sending around

22:47:13 [vinod]

i haven't looked at gentoo much. is it based on another distro?

22:47:40 [talli]

no, it's a totally new distro

22:47:53 [talli]

pretty much ground up new

22:48:48 [vinod]

and it has some kind of "ports" system where it compiles new packages on the fly, right?

22:49:18 [talli]

yeah, sorta. it's kind of apt + BSD ports

22:49:32 [vinod]

interesting

22:49:41 [talli]

i like it

22:50:17 [talli]

but it'sreally more of a server distro than a desktop. that is, if you don't have a fast box

22:50:30 [talli]

and a fast pipe

22:50:48 [talli]

it's no fun downloading and building large source files on a dialup and slow box

22:51:24 [vinod]

heh - tell me about it.

22:51:32 [vinod]

i'm so glad to have cable now :-)

22:51:44 [vinod]

but my box is still pretty slow - 266 mhz

23:21:15 [Inquizitophylax]

Inquizitophylax (proxy@ool-18baa8de.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #openacs

23:21:22 [Inquizitophylax]

woo?

23:21:24 [Inquizitophylax]

paje, again!

23:21:24 [paje]

* paje spanks talli

23:24:00 [talli]

hey

23:24:03 [talli]

wuzzup?

23:27:30 [Inquizitophylax]

need to figure out fdisk

23:27:35 [Inquizitophylax]

For gentoo

23:27:43 [jim]

"figure out"?

23:27:48 [jim]

what's the problem?

23:27:48 [paje]

the problem is dotlrn, at least according to don, will fix alot of missing pieces in OpenACS.

23:27:56 [Inquizitophylax]

what paje said :)

23:28:03 [Inquizitophylax]

paje, forget problem

23:28:04 [paje]

Inquizitophylax: I forgot problem

23:28:26 [jim]

even tho I printed the dotlrn source, I don't think I can fix that problem :)

23:28:26 [Inquizitophylax]

the problem is that I can't figure out how to make properly sized partitions using linux fdisk

23:28:49 [jim]

you should be able to make partitions of any size...

23:28:53 [talli]

hey, when we manage to finish the new OACS website, we should offer to rebuild the PG website

23:28:53 [Inquizitophylax]

right

23:28:59 [talli]

there's a discussion about it now

23:29:32 [Inquizitophylax]

jim, I CAN make partitions of any size..problem is...I'm not fluent in cylinder or sector speak

23:29:41 [talli]

especially since it seems that the OACS was the first community to embrace PG

23:29:48 [talli]

and that we know more about it than most others

23:29:52 [Inquizitophylax]

So I don't know how to calculate 100mb partitions or whatnot

23:30:12 [talli]

and we'll also have an architecture built on top of it already

23:30:20 [Inquizitophylax]

talli, how did you get around that problem when you installed Gentoo?

23:30:21 [talli]

paje, seen rbm ?

23:30:21 [paje]

rbm was last seen on #openacs 1 hours, 28 minutes and 58 seconds ago, saying: Almost certain [Tue Jun 25 17:01:08 2002]

23:30:35 [jim]

cyl... imagine a cylinder of a specific radius that cuts thru all the platters of your hd...

23:30:53 [talli]

Inquizitophylax: to make a partition in MB in fdisk, you do something like this

23:31:08 [Inquizitophylax]

* Inquizitophylax eagerly listens

23:31:12 [talli]

fdisk> m (i think that's the right one)

23:31:32 [Inquizitophylax]

m is help

23:31:37 [talli]

m might be the help command, which will also tell you

23:31:38 [Inquizitophylax]

it lists the help menu

23:31:39 [jim]

here's how to figure out how much space a cyl occupies... you multiply the number of sectors per track by the number of surfaces that actually store data

23:31:45 [talli]

n i think

23:31:47 [talli]

anyway

23:31:53 [talli]

it asks you which partition you want

23:31:58 [talli]

then it asks you the size

23:32:07 [talli]

to use MB, it's +100MB

23:32:10 [talli]

or whatever you awnt

23:32:17 [jim]

that tells you how many sectors is in a cyl

23:32:18 [talli]

but you +numberMB

23:32:29 [talli]

no, that's to assign the size of a partition

23:32:39 [talli]

oh, sorry jim

23:32:54 [talli]

anyway, Inquizitophylax, that's how i do it

23:33:06 [talli]

i have a 40GB drive, and i built three partitions

23:33:13 [jim]

(continuing my expl; it's sorta orthogonal to what you're saying,,, you're right of course)

23:33:18 [talli]

boot = +100MB or abotu 10 cyl

23:33:32 [talli]

swap = +512MB (forget the cyls)

23:33:58 [talli]

root = the rest

23:33:59 [Inquizitophylax]

Aha

23:34:07 [Inquizitophylax]

Talli, you a genus

23:34:16 [talli]

i would prefer to be a genius

23:34:19 [talli]

but i'll take what i can get

23:34:26 [Inquizitophylax]

genus, genies, same thang

23:34:31 [jim]

on larger drives, it seems like a cyl is about 8 mb (16,000 sectors)

23:34:44 [Inquizitophylax]

jim, talli's way is MUCH easier ;)

23:35:04 [Inquizitophylax]

talli, why would I need 512mb if my box has 768mb of ram?

23:35:13 [jim]

well, yes... in that case fdisk is doing the multiply for you

23:35:19 [talli]

Inquizitophylax: that's on my box

23:35:26 [talli]

i have 256MB of RAM

23:35:32 [talli]

you probably don't even need a swap

23:35:42 [talli]

i certainly don't think you need 1.5GB of swap

23:35:50 [jim]

meetoo

23:36:13 [Inquizitophylax]

Me four

23:36:33 [jim]

I'm just responding to your statement that you don't/didn't understand what a cyl is... now you do :)

23:36:35 [Inquizitophylax]

ok, what if I want to make a 5 gig root and a 9 gig "other" partition?

23:37:09 [jim]

you could do that with symlinks

23:37:29 [talli]

Inquizitophylax: i don't think you decide on the names of the partitions yet

23:37:31 [Inquizitophylax]

* Inquizitophylax bites denshi

23:37:35 [talli]

that comes later in teh instsall

23:37:36 [jim]

what is the box to be used for?

23:37:41 [Inquizitophylax]

My desktop

23:37:48 [talli]

if you want to make those partitions, it's +5000MB

23:37:50 [talli]

and +9000MB

23:37:54 [Inquizitophylax]

right

23:38:00 [jim]

ok... for a desktop, you need a desk :)

23:38:09 [Inquizitophylax]

no no! I need a top first!

23:38:23 [jim]

sheesh, I'm never right these days...

23:38:37 [Inquizitophylax]

you gotta have a top to put on the desk first

23:38:40 [Inquizitophylax]

otherwise you just have feet

23:38:52 [jim]

feet are good to have tho

23:39:25 [jim]

ok, do you intend for this desktop to be backed up?

23:39:27 [talli]

i never knew that unpacking source files is so resource intensive

23:40:05 [Inquizitophylax]

I think I got it

23:40:17 [Inquizitophylax]

no not backed up

23:40:28 [jim]

then why not have a 14g /?

23:40:34 [talli]

yeah

23:40:47 [Inquizitophylax]

i made a 128mb swap, a 200mb boot and a 5000mb home

23:40:50 [talli]

just make a big partition and let the distro organize it

23:40:52 [Inquizitophylax]

the rest 9.2 gigs is my /other

23:40:57 [jim]

(the mount shape is a tree that grows from /)

23:40:58 [Inquizitophylax]

i don't like that

23:41:07 [Inquizitophylax]

i like being different :-D

23:41:21 [talli]

Inquizitophylax: i don't think you really need a 200MB boot

23:41:24 [Inquizitophylax]

my momma always said...being different gets you chocolates

23:41:28 [Inquizitophylax]

Eh

23:41:30 [Inquizitophylax]

It's only space

23:41:31 [jim]

well, then symlinks are definitely in your future :)

23:41:32 [talli]

all that sits there is grub and the grub image, i think

23:42:10 [Inquizitophylax]

Forth on I go with my install!

23:42:38 [talli]

Inquizitophylax: are you doing the whole install from sources or are you using a stage3 install?

23:42:49 [Inquizitophylax]

probably stage 2 or 3

23:42:50 [jim]

you go on with your forth install?

23:42:57 [Inquizitophylax]

yes yes, fouth install

23:42:59 [talli]

Inquizitophylax: do stage3

23:43:00 [Inquizitophylax]

ain't it a pain?

23:43:05 [Inquizitophylax]

ok

23:43:10 [talli]

anything else is a waste

23:43:19 [Inquizitophylax]

actually

23:43:19 [paje]

actually is there something to automate this a bit more?

23:43:23 [Inquizitophylax]

is stage3 with Gnome?

23:43:25 [talli]

because once it installs you can do an emerge system or emerge -u world

23:43:29 [jim]

forget actually

23:43:29 [paje]

jim: I forgot actually

23:43:30 [talli]

KDE

23:43:33 [Inquizitophylax]

no thanks

23:43:42 [Inquizitophylax]

No KDE or Gnome for me

23:43:48 [Inquizitophylax]

XFce forever!!!!

23:43:56 [Inquizitophylax]

* Inquizitophylax runs out to his local tattoo parlor

23:43:58 [talli]

actually, stage3 isn't one or the other

23:44:00 [talli]

sorry

23:44:02 [talli]

it's just the base install

23:44:08 [jim]

fvwm or sawfish are nice, small, functional wms

23:44:13 [Inquizitophylax]

* Inquizitophylax meets vinod there

23:44:16 [talli]

then when you reboot you can do an emerge xfce

23:44:17 [Inquizitophylax]

I like xfce

23:44:23 [Inquizitophylax]

yes I am aware of that :)

23:44:31 [talli]

denshi: what's going on?

23:44:34 [Inquizitophylax]

* Inquizitophylax KVMs over to his gentoo midstall

23:45:42 [denshi]

talli: getting locks changed, looking for a W2, and the requisite bunch of OSS coding

23:45:56 [talli]

nice

23:45:57 [denshi]

you?

23:46:00 [talli]

what OSS are you working on?

23:46:11 [jim]

(the mount shape is a tree that grows from /; if you want a more graphlike shape, symlinks are your only mechanism to do that... maybe consider lvm, but that might be slow)

23:47:08 [denshi]

porting the aolserver ns_db stuff to Apache2; fixing a bug in PHP; OACS webmail; random wierdness

23:47:21 [denshi]

I keep trying to work on ical, but I keep getting distracted

23:47:21 [talli]

i was going to ask about ns_db...

23:47:24 [talli]

how's that coming around?

23:47:26 [jim]

oacs webmail working yet?

23:47:49 [denshi]

ns_db: rather well. it seperates fairly cleanly from aolserver

23:47:54 [denshi]

webmail: is a rewrite

23:47:59 [denshi]

lemme find a link

23:48:02 [talli]

does it integrate to apache well?

23:48:04 [jim]

cool :)

23:48:15 [denshi]

http://www.mozilla.org/blue-sky/misc/199805/intertwingle.html

23:48:15 [oacs-chump]

A: http://www.mozilla.org/blue-sky/misc/199805/intertwingle.html from denshi

23:48:22 [denshi]

A:| Intertwingle

23:48:23 [oacs-chump]

titled item A

23:48:42 [denshi]

A: a hypothetical mail query/link system

23:48:42 [oacs-chump]

added comment A1

23:49:05 [denshi]

A: possibly useful for a new webmail, and certainly nice with a RDBMS-backed mail system

23:49:05 [oacs-chump]

added comment A2

23:49:27 [jim]

ahh, the webmail rewrite is still in planning stages?

23:49:29 [talli]

wow

23:49:30 [talli]

very nice

23:49:39 [talli]

it's nice that he wrote the use case and design doc for you

23:50:06 [denshi]

it comes up short in a couple aspects

23:51:12 [denshi]

like, he states that this is strictly orthagonal to the choice of mail reader, but the presentation of these linkages is the hardest thing in the design

23:51:20 [Inquizitophylax]

wooo

23:51:32 [denshi]

so it's not really orthagonal, since UI is deeply involved

23:52:16 [Inquizitophylax]

so which stage should I go for? 1,2,3?

23:52:32 [talli]

3

23:52:37 [talli]

much faster and easier install

23:52:44 [talli]

denshi: what's ahrd about it?

23:52:45 [Inquizitophylax]

ok

23:53:33 [denshi]

talli: it seems to me that every field in an email message can be a query on both an absolute link, and a range

23:54:02 [talli]

you may want to speak with lars about some improvements and additions he made to Luke's form building tool

23:54:11 [Inquizitophylax]

ack!

23:54:11 [talli]

it can generate forms based on metadata

23:54:18 [talli]

don't know if that might help

23:54:19 [Inquizitophylax]

corrupt archive

23:54:21 [Inquizitophylax]

eeeeevil

23:54:30 [denshi]

like: the date is involved in both "show me all messages arriving on this date", and "show me all messages arriving in a variable timespan centered on this date"

23:54:31 [talli]

doesnt' seem like you're working with forms, though

23:54:37 [denshi]

but I'll talk to lars

23:54:54 [Inquizitophylax]

stage 2 works

23:54:55 [talli]

ping luke and lars

23:54:57 [denshi]

it's just a very busy screen

23:54:58 [Inquizitophylax]

i think

23:55:08 [talli]

yeah, that sounds busy

23:55:14 [Inquizitophylax]

* Inquizitophylax wanders off to watch tv while stage 2 emerges

23:55:49 [denshi]

anyway, I've got to find a permanent austin job to hold onto during school

23:56:23 [denshi]

that comes first

23:57:02 [denshi]

talli: what's the interest with ns_db?

23:57:07 [Inquizitophylax]

can't you just fool around with the professors?

23:57:24 [talli]

nothing. just interested in seeing it

23:57:55 [denshi]

Inquizitophylax: you mean they paid you as well?

23:57:57 [talli]

the thing is that even with ns_db you still might not match AOLserver's RAD abilities

23:58:11 [talli]

gievn that you can design tools outside of OACS easily using AOLserver

23:58:29 [talli]

but the number of people that would be interseted in using stock OACS would certainly grow

23:58:55 [denshi]

yeah, I've really learned to appreciate the nsd internals more after seeing the competition

23:59:27 [denshi]

but I'm usually too young to influence server choice in an organization

23:59:39 [denshi]

a module addition is a good thing for me

23:59:43 [Inquizitophylax]

if by paid you mean they gave students A's...yes

23:59:59 [Inquizitophylax]

paje!