IRC log of openacs on 2002-06-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:32:33 [Infraphylax]

paje?

00:32:34 [paje]

Infraphylax?

00:32:37 [Infraphylax]

You love me, don't you?

00:39:39 [markd2]

markd2 (~markd2@h166-102-030-081.ip.alltel.net) has joined #openacs

00:46:49 [Infraphylax]

hey markiesaurus

00:46:51 [jim]

anyone know where on the aduni vids they talk about the set theory precursor material to sql?

00:46:54 [markd2]

greeble

00:48:04 [Infraphylax]

gorble..time for me to get my sleep

00:48:06 [Infraphylax]

I lack

00:48:19 [markd2]

therefore you is

00:50:52 [rbm]

wow, jim's here

00:51:11 [rbm]

* rbm compiles o new kernel

00:51:24 [jim]

heya rbm...

00:51:51 [jim]

yeah, just got finished dealing with provider changes

00:53:30 [talli]

hey guys

00:53:41 [rbm]

jim: cool

00:53:52 [talli]

rbm: we have an openacs booth at linux world in SF in august

00:53:54 [rbm]

the great talli!

00:54:00 [rbm]

talli: WHAT!??!?!?!?!

00:54:09 [rbm]

talli: I *HAVE* to be there then :)

00:54:10 [talli]

i reserved a booth at linuxworld for openacs

00:54:10 [markd2]

really? cool!

00:54:19 [rbm]

talli: That is _awesome_

00:54:33 [talli]

they have a dotORG pavilion that is free for open source projects to show off

00:54:40 [talli]

we have to get the website done by then, btw

00:54:40 [markd2]

openacs will be in small letters, with MOMENTUM on a huge banner

00:54:45 [talli]

:)

00:54:54 [talli]

actually, that's something else i need to work on....

00:55:20 [talli]

a guy from OEone pinged me saying he might be able to get some funding to work on the project

00:55:41 [talli]

right now, the only thing hampering momentum is that tehre is no one who wants to be a project manager, or rather can afford to be a project manager now

00:56:20 [talli]

i chatted with don an janine when i was first going to get a booth at linux world and we agreed there has to be some ground rules

00:56:43 [talli]

like, companies and consultants that would like to be there can *not* sell or market themselves aroudn the booth

00:57:00 [talli]

their marketing material can be there, but people are not allowed to sell themselves, just the OACS

00:57:34 [talli]

we'll have to come up with some more concrete rules, but that is the basic one

00:57:36 [rbm]

talli: We have to get some h0t chixq0rs ala the FreeBSD folks. That's the only reason people visit the FreeBSD booth :)

00:57:48 [talli]

oh yeah?

00:57:59 [talli]

i didn't notice that at the NY linux world

00:58:00 [rbm]

you've never seen the FreeBSD devilettes?

00:58:04 [talli]

no

00:58:11 [rbm]

hmmm

00:58:15 [rbm]

let me dig out o pic

00:58:16 [talli]

i am all for h0t chixq0rs

00:58:32 [talli]

if for no other reason to distract people from donb's gut

00:58:41 [rbm]

talli: Actually, I 'm compiling a new kernel so I can have X, so hang on a bit for the pic

00:58:48 [talli]

ok

00:59:24 [markd2]

http://www.xs4all.nl/~marcone/bsdversuslinux.html

01:00:16 [talli]

that is the nerdiest figgin' group of nyluggers in the world

01:00:20 [talli]

christ almighty

01:00:43 [talli]

i wonder if linus ever looks around and says, "oh lord, what have i done?"

01:02:14 [talli]

there is not one person in that linux picture who wasn't tortured as a child in the playground

01:06:57 [davb]

davb (dave@alb-24-58-162-82.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs

01:07:02 [davb]

hi all

01:07:17 [talli]

hey davb

01:11:37 [jim]

for those running a unix-alike... I wrote a fairly simple script for printing the source of entire packages...

01:11:48 [davb]

cool.

01:12:07 [davb]

we need an openacs cookbook

01:12:51 [jim]

print-oacs-pkg <service> <package> sends to stdout a plain-text paginated document

01:13:33 [jim]

every file (almost) in /web/<service>/packages/<package>

01:15:15 [jim]

so you could do something like print-oacs-pkg <service> <package> | lpr

01:16:20 [jim]

my printer likes to truncate long lines...

01:16:30 [jim]

so I wrote this thing

01:17:40 [jim]

and I printed out the dotlrn package, sc, user-profile, profile-provider

01:18:13 [jim]

(dotlrn is seven -hundred- pages... sheesh)

01:18:25 [davb]

oh yeah, i hate that line truncation

01:18:30 [davb]

wow.

01:18:33 [davb]

duplex

01:18:48 [davb]

i use a little program that prints two pages side-by-side, small, but saves paper.

01:18:52 [jim]

I shoulda bought one

01:19:07 [jim]

I still will, I think

01:19:27 [jim]

my eyes can't hang with small anymore

01:19:58 [jim]

which is why I'm a bit miffed at the dotlrn website...

01:21:10 [jim]

tiny fonts and -won't- pay attention to my chosen font size

01:22:43 [jim]

about http://www.xs4all.nl/~marcone/bsdversuslinux.html///

01:23:23 [jim]

one year, another booth had girls in grass skirts and wore/gave out leis...

01:24:06 [jim]

this one girl gave out leis to everyone wearing the bsd horns, cause horny people need leis...

01:24:52 [rbm]

leis?

01:25:11 [jim]

hawaiian flowered necklaces

01:25:28 [jim]

it was her pun :)

01:26:11 [davb]

that is bad

01:26:18 [davb]

the dotlrn no font thing

01:26:24 [davb]

jim: which browser?

01:26:33 [jim]

mozilla

01:27:30 [davb]

oh, text zoom -> 120% works for me.

01:27:32 [jim]

ohh, but mozilla has "text zoom"

01:27:38 [jim]

just found it

01:27:41 [davb]

:)

01:27:41 [jim]

:)

01:28:12 [davb]

there needs to be a minimum font size setting.

01:31:47 [jim]

yeah, they assume midgets and people with thick glasses will read it unaltered...

01:32:10 [jim]

but, this is a solution :)

01:32:46 [davb]

yep, works pretty well.

01:33:18 [davb]

hmm. no mozilla 1.0 in debian testing yet.

01:33:26 [rbm]

but it's in sid :)

01:33:30 [davb]

it is?

01:33:37 [rbm]

Yes, I run it

01:33:41 [davb]

hmmm. i meant that, i thought I was set for unstable.

01:34:02 [rbm]

brb.

01:34:03 [davb]

weird:

01:34:05 [davb]

deb http://http.us.debian.org/debian unstable main contrib non-free

01:34:05 [davb]

deb http://non-us.debian.org/debian-non-US unstable/non-US main contrib non-fre\

01:34:05 [davb]

e

01:34:20 [davb]

mine says RC3

01:34:24 [davb]

maybe i need a mirror.

01:34:45 [jim]

RC3? what's that?

01:34:51 [davb]

1.0rc3

01:35:00 [jim]

ahh, of moz

01:35:05 [davb]

yes .

01:35:50 [jim]

Like I said earlier... I printed out the acs-sc package files, and I'm studying the data model

01:36:04 [davb]

oh great.

01:36:18 [jim]

I'm trying to understand what a "profile" is

01:36:21 [davb]

rbm and i am planning on going in and cleaning up the admin pages.

01:36:47 [davb]

sounds like some cia thing.

01:37:34 [jim]

well, there's a "dotlrn user profile", other kinds of profiles, and these other things called "profile providers"...

01:38:08 [jim]

part of a profile is a acs-service-contract that has three operations:

01:38:22 [jim]

name, prettyName and render

01:39:01 [davb]

hmmm. i wonder if I should check in the etp 2.0 stuff into the openacs tree

01:39:15 [davb]

we need a way to track the packages seperate from the rest of openacs.

01:39:18 [jim]

all take no args and return strings, the last returns an html strings

01:39:29 [davb]

must be something to display to the browser.

01:39:59 [davb]

i don't like service-contract generating html.

01:40:16 [davb]

that does not seperate code and presentation.

01:40:26 [jim]

I printed new-portal too, looked that over...

01:44:14 [davb]

how does that look?

01:44:50 [davb]

i have an idea for etp, a seperate etp related package that manages all the etp instances. so I can add items to any section from one screen, move stuff around etc...

01:47:52 [talli]

davb: XML-RPC should be a central function of ETP@

01:47:54 [talli]

ETP2

01:48:02 [davb]

talli?

01:48:02 [paje]

it has been said that talli is a monkey hmpher

01:48:03 [talli]

that is, being able to publish content via XML-RPC

01:48:23 [davb]

talli that is for etp 2.5 or 3. i want etp 2 out the door soon.

01:48:26 [talli]

perhaps that's a CR related faculty

01:48:41 [davb]

actually that should be a seperate package/service-contracty kind of thing.

01:49:05 [davb]

critical items for etp 2.0 - fix openfts search so it only indexes live items, that is a general CR fix

01:49:53 [davb]

- fix admin interface

01:50:05 [davb]

- categories would be nice

01:50:24 [davb]

- user submitted content type

01:51:00 [davb]

so you can have a 'suggest an item' feature

01:51:38 [talli]

set up a bugtracker instance!

01:51:45 [davb]

is musea still using etp?

01:51:55 [talli]

i can set one up on clients.museatech.net

01:52:02 [talli]

we don't have any project that relies on it right now

01:52:04 [davb]

talli: i'll check with rbm. i can setup a bugtracker on mine machine too.

01:52:23 [davb]

ok. i have some neat ideas i am working on, but I want something functional for the openacs.org site.

01:52:41 [davb]

i think most of the base work is done for etp 2.0

01:53:17 [talli]

that would be great

01:53:30 [talli]

if you have a plan of execution, i'm sure that luke might be able to lend a coding hand

01:53:35 [davb]

but i need to fix search.

01:53:42 [talli]

he just doesn't have time to spend designing and building

01:53:58 [davb]

sure. well the plan he originally wrote is still good.

01:54:17 [davb]

and mostly complete. just needs testing and interface improvements.

01:54:47 [davb]

oh yeah, i want to add sdm functions to the bugtracker too :)

01:55:03 [markd2]

markd2 has quit ("Bork")

01:55:29 [davb]

talli: let me see if rbm can setup an openacs 4.5 with bugtracker on openacs.org

01:55:38 [talli]

very cool

01:58:14 [talli]

talli has quit (Remote closed the connection)

02:01:18 [davb]

hmmm.

02:01:27 [davb]

i need to ask neophytos how to handle this.

02:01:43 [rbm]

oom?

02:02:00 [davb]

hi rbm

02:02:07 [davb]

got a minute?

02:02:27 [rbm]

in a little bit, yes

02:02:36 [davb]

ok, np, no rush.

02:03:02 [rbm]

What's the resolution right after 1024x768?

02:03:16 [jun_]

jun_ (~jun@202.163.222.186) has joined #openacs

02:03:18 [davb]

1152x864?

02:03:25 [davb]

1152x somthing :)

02:03:28 [davb]

hi jun_

02:03:31 [rbm]

* rbm grumbles

02:03:32 [talli]

talli (~chatzilla@pool-162-83-234-57.ny5030.east.verizon.net) has joined #openacs

02:03:33 [jun_]

hi dave

02:03:41 [davb]

hang on its in my xf86config

02:03:44 [rbm]

talli: do you know what's the resolution right after 1024x768?

02:03:48 [rbm]

davb: thanks.

02:03:56 [talli]

hey jun_ !

02:03:57 [jun_]

hi talli... well i got here

02:04:04 [davb]

1152x864

02:04:11 [talli]

rbm: i think that is's 1152xsomerthing...

02:04:14 [rbm]

and the one after that?

02:04:15 [talli]

yeah, davb's got it

02:04:19 [davb]

1280x1024

02:04:24 [rbm]

That's it! Thanks

02:04:26 [davb]

np

02:04:28 [jun_]

i don't know about this IRC stuff... eversince I started to into the net since 95 i never went to IRC

02:04:37 [rbm]

IRC is nice

02:04:38 [talli]

davb: jun's here. full ETP2 discussion may commence

02:04:40 [davb]

irc is super.

02:04:45 [davb]

great.

02:04:51 [davb]

I have a super-expedited plan.

02:05:22 [jun_]

ok... i have ears... i also though a lot from stuff based from the production of modetp

02:05:52 [davb]

i think most of the items on the etp 2.0 planning document are done. workflow integration is deferred.

02:06:09 [davb]

we need to fix search so it only indexes live content

02:06:21 [davb]

and finish the UI improvements.

02:06:31 [jun_]

yes deffered but we must structure etp2 to be workflow friendly

02:06:48 [talli]

brb

02:06:53 [jun_]

so implementation of workflow will not mean a rework of etp2

02:06:56 [talli]

talli has quit (Remote closed the connection)

02:07:01 [davb]

jun_ it should be ok the way it is. basically the custom template for each content_type can take care of that, i think.

02:07:21 [davb]

if I have time I can try an example for a workflow enabled app.

02:07:47 [talli]

talli (~chatzilla@pool-162-83-234-57.ny5030.east.verizon.net) has joined #openacs

02:08:26 [jun_]

or atleast all of use must get to know workflow so atleast its on the back of heads when implementing etp2

02:09:09 [jun_]

asside from the etp2 doc do you have other ideas?

02:09:36 [davb]

I think that is enough. I have alot of ideas. I want a way to associate photos and other content with etp items.

02:09:48 [davb]

also I want to enable user-submitted content.

02:10:12 [davb]

and last I am thinking of an etp master control panel type of application that allows you to admin all the etp instances from one place.

02:12:04 [davb]

the flexible part of the design is, the admin template will list all the content items in a section. from there we can link to workflow pages, or any other custom admin pages we need for a content type.

02:12:46 [davb]

also, optional rss syndication for etp content would be nice.

02:12:49 [davb]

:)

02:12:52 [davb]

i have alot of ideas.

02:12:52 [jun_]

i see pretty much the same idea i have. Have you tried other CMS interfaces?

02:13:07 [jun_]

are you familiar with jahia?

02:13:09 [davb]

i tried the original cms.

02:13:14 [davb]

no.

02:13:34 [jun_]

jahia is a semi OSS ACS like platform

02:13:50 [davb]

interesting.

02:13:53 [jun_]

but since its commercial where its a bit more polished

02:13:57 [davb]

they have a nice site :)

02:14:05 [jun_]

you have a fast connection?

02:14:10 [jun_]

try jahia.org

02:14:15 [jun_]

there is a demo link

02:14:22 [davb]

yes. trying it now.

02:14:55 [jun_]

try to create some additional sections, portlets, content

02:16:24 [davb]

looks cool. could be built on openacs, but i see it work as dot-lrn type of application on top of openacs.

02:16:51 [jun_]

yes something like that

02:17:02 [jun_]

oacs has a lot of this

02:17:11 [jun_]

but jahia has it packaged

02:17:29 [jun_]

jahia's cms does a inline type of editing

02:17:42 [jun_]

there "edit mode" brings up links

02:17:42 [jim]

jim has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

02:18:05 [davb]

hmm, i can't find the edit link. does it work in mozilla?

02:18:51 [jun_]

yes it works in mozilla

02:18:57 [jun_]

you need to login as siteadmin

02:19:03 [davb]

i thought i did :)

02:19:07 [jun_]

then on top of the site there is an "edit mode"

02:19:21 [jun_]

after that small icons will appear

02:19:23 [jun_]

like

02:19:38 [jun_]

"[X] [+] [*]"... etc.

02:20:05 [davb]

wow, it is small

02:20:07 [jun_]

where you able to get into edit mode?

02:20:40 [davb]

yes.

02:20:46 [davb]

very similar to dotlrn.

02:21:04 [davb]

etp plus the new-portal system and something to manage multimedia will be very similar.

02:22:11 [davb]

pretty neat.

02:22:28 [davb]

talli: have you seen this?

02:22:33 [jun_]

yup similar to dotlrn

02:22:39 [jun_]

now check this one out

02:22:45 [jun_]

http://www.cofax.org/site/real.jsp

02:22:45 [oacs-chump]

A: http://www.cofax.org/site/real.jsp from jun_

02:22:57 [davb]

http://www.jahia.org

02:22:57 [oacs-chump]

B: http://www.jahia.org from davb

02:23:13 [jun_]

cofax does it differently

02:23:23 [jun_]

check out the screenshots below

02:23:26 [jun_]

the page

02:24:30 [davb]

cool, very similar to what I am thinking about.

02:24:46 [davb]

uhoh, now I am having too many ideas :)

02:25:24 [davb]

wow, newspapers are using mysql?

02:25:33 [jun_]

so the 2 doing CMS on different admin interface

02:25:56 [davb]

right.

02:26:01 [davb]

hmmm.

02:26:19 [davb]

* davb is thinking about etp as a service that has a seperate UI pacakge

02:26:23 [davb]

or something like that.

02:26:47 [davb]

i like the idea of a cms that uses several small packages working together.

02:27:05 [davb]

instead of a huge monster like cms

02:27:19 [davb]

jun_ have you looked at the form builder stuff in openacs?

02:27:33 [jun_]

not really

02:27:42 [jun_]

but rob made a formbuilder

02:27:52 [jun_]

its basically looks at the data model

02:28:01 [davb]

don is adding some stuff to make it easier to use.

02:28:06 [davb]

a new proc ad_form

02:28:11 [jun_]

then tries to creat edit/add/delete/search

02:28:34 [jun_]

its really cool that is can edit most openacs tables

02:28:37 [davb]

this is differnt, but makes it easier to build dynamic forms based on content types.

02:28:44 [jun_]

it even supports foreign keys

02:28:51 [jun_]

i see

02:28:53 [davb]

that is pretty handy.

02:29:01 [jun_]

i better look at that form builder

02:29:10 [davb]

it integrates with the templating system

02:29:30 [jun_]

i see.. think rob also used the same procs

02:29:42 [davb]

ah, great.

02:29:52 [davb]

is that available anywhere?

02:30:12 [jun_]

not sure

02:30:18 [jun_]

i think its still internal to us

02:30:32 [davb]

i wonder if there is a way to build a default form that is dynamically generated based on the content type.

02:30:40 [jun_]

but you see doing cms really depends on the admin interface

02:30:45 [davb]

i think luke tried that, but never got it working

02:30:58 [jun_]

cofax like or jahia like

02:31:09 [jun_]

both are extremes

02:31:22 [jun_]

my current modetp is closer to cofax

02:31:34 [jun_]

but then is that the right approach?

02:31:43 [davb]

I am assuming that everything will live in the CR, so using that and some other services it should be possible to build different UIs

02:31:51 [jun_]

we do it cofax like or jahia like?

02:32:05 [jun_]

yup

02:32:43 [davb]

even possibly breaking out parts of etp to act as a service to a seperate interface, more integrated with new-portal

02:33:03 [davb]

the cofax type i think is easier to build without relying on new-portal.

02:33:24 [davb]

but i will need to look at it more.

02:33:24 [jun_]

yup etp will be more of a service app

02:33:36 [jun_]

comprising of tcl procs and db apis

02:33:50 [jun_]

so do we move into a general comments like app?

02:34:05 [davb]

excellent. this is a great plan, but i need something for the new openacs.org site soon :)

02:34:12 [jun_]

there is something I like about general comments is that its able to be in other packages

02:34:45 [jun_]

so many ideas and direction but we need only one

02:34:53 [davb]

well i can see an application where new-portal is on top, and there are various content services, etp can be one fo them. there is also bugtracker, bboard, etc.

02:35:31 [jun_]

so we move to jahia like interface

02:35:34 [davb]

for now I am going to go with what we have already for etp 2.0. and focus the interface like the one you were using in modetp.

02:35:45 [jun_]

and etp will act as the one to edit non application content

02:35:55 [davb]

jun_ right.

02:36:08 [davb]

so this is really two seperate issues. :)

02:36:30 [davb]

right now we need something to add content to a site that goes live in less than a month.

02:37:43 [davb]

oh yeah, i want to create a new-portal portlet for etp 2.0 :)

02:38:33 [jun_]

is new-portal the one issued in dotlrn?

02:39:19 [davb]

yes. it is in the development branch of openacs also.

02:39:38 [davb]

it will be the portal for openacs 4.6 i believe.

02:41:23 [jun_]

i see

02:41:57 [jun_]

what do you mean by "right now we need something to add content to a site that goes live in less than a month."?

02:42:07 [jun_]

you have a client project?

02:42:22 [davb]

oh :) I am trying to get openacs.org switched over to openacs 4.5

02:42:41 [davb]

it was partially developed with etp 1.0.

02:42:44 [jun_]

so you are the one who is working now for the new site

02:43:02 [davb]

unless we get anymore volunteers. :)

02:43:45 [jun_]

i wish i could give a helping hand... m busy with work and looking for work to pay the rent

02:43:46 [davb]

talli: lets get togther with rbm tomorrow and work out an initial task list in case we get some volunteers.

02:44:13 [davb]

np. I will also be looking for work, but I can develop more openacs hacking skill in the meantime

02:44:20 [jun_]

do you want etp2 to be used for openacs.org?

02:44:42 [davb]

yes. if possible. we will have a fallback plan.

02:45:05 [davb]

but it will make it much easier i think to allow people to help out on different sections fo the site.

02:45:22 [davb]

possibly have an etp for each optional package that is hosted at openacs.org etc...

02:46:37 [jun_]

but etp only needs write priv to have people admin rights

02:46:48 [jun_]

wouldn't that do?

02:47:01 [jun_]

like openacs.org/projectsubsite/etppage

02:47:01 [davb]

yes.

02:47:05 [davb]

sure that is fine.

02:47:52 [jun_]

so etp2 will not delay openacs.org site

02:48:00 [davb]

that is why I am aiming towards the minimum number of added features for etp 2.0, but leaving the framework to add on later.

02:48:01 [jun_]

do you think that will be ok?

02:48:41 [davb]

no. it won't delay. we can get most of the site going soon. and if etp 2.0 won't be ready, it will be similar to the current site.

02:49:24 [jun_]

i think using etp1 is ok as long there are no major lacking features

02:49:39 [davb]

I'll have to check with talli. i thought there might have been a problem.

02:50:01 [jun_]

going back to etp2

02:50:28 [jun_]

or in general CMS of OACS it attacks things differently from other cms

02:51:00 [jun_]

OACS and even ACSJ makes new content types for each different kind of contents

02:51:17 [jun_]

which is odd not that I have seen other cms

02:51:21 [jun_]

for example

02:51:36 [jun_]

and article with text and image in ACS we make a new content type

02:51:49 [jun_]

say... "article with image"

02:52:17 [jun_]

but in other cms what they do is that they just relate an image content to a article content

02:52:26 [davb]

that is the way it should be.

02:52:28 [jun_]

now they have an "article with image"

02:52:51 [jun_]

which also means that the image maybe linked to other content items

02:52:54 [davb]

and can be done in openacs. that is what I was thinking about for adding multimedia content with etp articles etc.

02:53:01 [davb]

sure.

02:53:16 [jun_]

that way i see is just use the cr_items.parent_id

02:53:28 [jun_]

i have done this for ticket-tracker lite

02:53:35 [davb]

interesting.

02:53:41 [jun_]

where the parent id of cr_item is the ticket_id

02:53:53 [jun_]

the files is attached to the ticket

02:54:08 [jun_]

i have sent this to vinod although not sure if it got into OACS code

02:54:09 [davb]

that is interesting, but only allows a cr_item to be mapped to one ticket.

02:54:25 [davb]

for photos, etc that wouldn't work.

02:54:27 [jun_]

yup yup

02:54:32 [davb]

ok :)

02:54:54 [jun_]

so there is still that inflexiblity of doing many to many

02:55:08 [davb]

right, i think you need another table to map the items.

02:55:12 [jun_]

if you do the parent_id its just one to many

02:55:51 [jun_]

yeah... but that will not mean a modification of CR or a custom table for ETP

02:56:05 [davb]

no. i am thinking of a multimedia package.

02:56:25 [davb]

borrowing an idea from another project. I have to see how much we can borrow.

02:56:27 [jun_]

so how will that work?

02:56:44 [davb]

images etc are stored in the cr along iwth the articles.

02:57:08 [davb]

there is a map table that says which images are assigned to which content_items

02:57:25 [jun_]

and how will article be related to images? via a mapping table?

02:57:45 [davb]

yes, the same table.

02:58:00 [jun_]

so you extend cr_items table?

02:58:10 [davb]

no, there would have to be a new table to map this.

02:58:19 [davb]

basically it works just like keywords.

02:58:41 [jun_]

oh yeah but will this new table be a part of CR or ETP?

02:58:52 [davb]

good question.

02:59:03 [jun_]

since its a generic function its logical to be in CR

02:59:04 [davb]

i think option 3, part of a seperate pacakge.

02:59:13 [davb]

it would be a companian package to etp

02:59:17 [davb]

both built on the cr

02:59:34 [jun_]

but why separate it?

03:00:45 [davb]

it seems better to keep stuff out of the acs-core. possbly it would be added into it, but if you base it on th CR apis it does not rely on the internal structure of the CR

03:01:00 [davb]

this is tricky stuff i think. when to split stuff off.

03:01:08 [davb]

and what to build in to the cr.

03:01:20 [jun_]

i see

03:01:21 [davb]

IE, keywords does not belong in the CR

03:01:36 [jun_]

really? where does keywords belong to?

03:01:41 [talli]

whoa

03:01:43 [davb]

it should be its own package.

03:01:44 [talli]

sorry, i stepped away

03:01:47 [davb]

heh

03:01:49 [talli]

you guys really got into it!

03:01:51 [talli]

great!

03:02:00 [davb]

in fact I have a plan for that too :)

03:02:08 [davb]

(borrowed from neophytos)

03:02:10 [talli]

i looked at the jahia.org site, but i didn't look too closely

03:02:23 [talli]

we should get neophytos to help with ETP 2

03:02:50 [davb]

if he is available, i will ask him to help with search.

03:02:50 [jun_]

there is so much stuff on etp2 or OACS

03:02:54 [talli]

maybe the other product you guys are talking about, a more jahia-like system, could be ETP2.1, ETP3 or a whole new name?

03:03:02 [davb]

exactly.

03:03:10 [jun_]

well i am not looking at jahia

03:03:16 [jun_]

its just an example where we can go

03:03:22 [jun_]

another way is cofax

03:03:45 [jun_]

i am just presenting what others are doing and maybe we can borrow concepts from them

03:04:08 [davb]

anyway I think the key is, build a nice UI on top of serveral focused packages providing services. that way there can be multiple UI implementations.

03:04:24 [jun_]

but if you look at it really for example in jahia its more that etp but is oacs direction

03:04:38 [davb]

the trick is deciding what services go where and how to build them.

03:04:42 [talli]

i think that the idea of building different apps that can coexist is great

03:04:43 [jun_]

yes davb that is the key

03:05:03 [talli]

personally, i think that a CMS system really needs to be more desktop oriented

03:05:10 [davb]

that is basically how dotlrn works. it lives on top of all the other apps and pulls them together.

03:05:30 [davb]

talli: that too.

03:05:32 [talli]

meaning, allowing products like dreamweaver, mozilla composer, radio, etc to talk to the CMS via webdav or XML-RPC

03:05:33 [jun_]

yeah dotlrn is good example

03:05:48 [jun_]

there are projects like that too

03:05:50 [davb]

I would like webdav so I can use dreamweaver to edit adp templates.

03:05:51 [jun_]

opencms

03:06:04 [davb]

actually I do use dreamweaver, but I have to scp them to the server.

03:06:08 [jun_]

or joel software's cms

03:06:18 [jun_]

most of this cms does not even need a server

03:06:22 [talli]

but there are many applications that recquire content creation that do not need a desktop app

03:06:27 [jun_]

they just upload to the server and its done

03:06:37 [talli]

for isntance, it would be nice if the ETP interface could be used to create bboard posts

03:06:59 [davb]

talli: the etp service can be used to build a bboard interface.

03:07:00 [jun_]

so talli that is like what jahia does

03:07:15 [talli]

yeah, that sounds pretty cool

03:07:27 [jun_]

but that would mean we need to get opinions of other openacs developers like donb

03:07:41 [jun_]

since this might turn into dotlrn

03:07:44 [davb]

not really.

03:07:44 [talli]

that, i imagine, would provide a way for rapidly developing applications since it's a more "componentized" architecture

03:07:49 [jun_]

only this one is like dotsite

03:07:54 [talli]

no, dotlrn would use this

03:08:06 [davb]

talli: we need the fully realized workflow i think.

03:08:17 [talli]

yeah, that would be great

03:08:24 [talli]

but workflow will be a monumental task

03:08:37 [davb]

we don't need approval unless we plan on distributing it as "OpenACS" :) its an application build with the toolkit.

03:08:38 [jun_]

so many ideas... or we hatch a grand plan

03:08:44 [jun_]

then make mini plans

03:08:48 [davb]

right.

03:08:49 [jun_]

and do the miniplans

03:09:16 [davb]

its ok to be dreaming like this, its too late for me to be coding anyway :)

03:09:20 [jun_]

that way we can really do something realistic because aiming too high might not be good

03:09:41 [jun_]

hey guys i have to go out for lunch

03:09:47 [jun_]

can i join you guys later?

03:09:49 [davb]

right. so we have stages of evolution that this can take. first we need all the services build.

03:09:58 [davb]

I will probably be sleeping by then :)

03:10:09 [talli]

yeah, i think i will be asleep too

03:10:18 [davb]

but I will be back tomorrow.

03:10:18 [jun_]

hehehe

03:10:22 [talli]

but tomorrow we should be able to have the convo

03:10:24 [talli]

again

03:10:35 [jun_]

i guess its best for us to chat in my morning and your evenings

03:10:35 [talli]

jun_: you should come here more often!

03:10:41 [davb]

talli: did you see my note about a task list/plan for openacs.org

03:10:47 [talli]

yeah, that sounds good

03:10:50 [talli]

let's discuss tomorrow

03:10:57 [davb]

no, he has too many interesting ideas, I don't get any work done :)

03:11:01 [talli]

:)

03:11:20 [jun_]

who me?

03:11:20 [paje]

i guess jun_ is not looking at jahia

03:12:09 [jun_]

i am looking at jahia... i brought it up right?

03:12:15 [davb]

heh

03:12:20 [davb]

paje, botsnack

03:12:20 [paje]

:)

03:12:38 [jun_]

oh paje is a bot?

03:12:43 [davb]

yes

03:12:49 [davb]

jun has too many interesting ideas

03:12:54 [davb]

jun?

03:12:59 [davb]

hmm

03:13:07 [davb]

oh well.

03:13:14 [davb]

thanks for stopping by.

03:13:41 [jun_]

i try to get more ideas so atleast we will know what we can do

03:13:55 [jun_]

also since 1. I have little time to contribute code

03:14:06 [jun_]

might as well do something like get ideas

03:14:14 [davb]

still this is good.

03:14:37 [jun_]

to pay the rent so I guess I am looking at other cms too

03:15:15 [jun_]

i got to go now

03:15:18 [davb]

sure. we should compare to other CMSs and see what they do right and incorporate those ideas.

03:15:21 [davb]

bye.

03:15:28 [jun_]

i hope to stop by tomorrow

03:15:29 [davb]

thanks again.

03:15:35 [jun_]

thank you too

03:15:40 [jun_]

nice chatting with you

03:15:46 [jun_]

bye

03:17:44 [talli]

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03:24:55 [davb]

good night

03:24:57 [davb]

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11:29:07 [davb]

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11:29:24 [davb]

hi

11:33:01 [talli]

hey davb

11:39:16 [davb]

i had some more ideas for the internals of etp 2.0 on the way to work :)

11:58:02 [talli]

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13:29:19 [pete_openmsg]

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13:29:42 [pete_openmsg]

Anyone here?

13:31:16 [markd2]

hiya

13:32:11 [pete_openmsg]

I've got this wierd problem with AolServer concerning the use of UK sterling pound signs (£).

13:33:05 [pete_openmsg]

It just doesn't seem to handle them properly. For example, if I do an 'ns_log notice "£"', I get a funny A character before it when its logged.

13:33:43 [cro]

cro (~cro@defiant.nca.asu.edu) has joined #openacs

13:34:26 [pete_openmsg]

Any ideas?

13:36:04 [markd2]

do you get the £ sign too? So like A£ ?

13:40:04 [pete_openmsg]

Yep.

13:40:59 [markd2]

aolserver might be promoting the string to unicode, but doing it wrong :-)

13:41:03 [markd2]

outside of that, I dunno

13:42:14 [pete_openmsg]

Hmmm. Unfornunately unicode is not my particular field of expertise....

13:42:57 [pete_openmsg]

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13:43:35 [pete_openmsg]

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13:56:23 [talli]

talli (~chatzilla@pool-162-83-234-57.ny5030.east.verizon.net) has joined #openacs

14:03:52 [jim]

create index dtlrn_com_all_com_parent_id_idx on dotlrn_communities_all (community_id, parent_community_id

14:03:53 [jim]

*

14:03:53 [jim]

ERROR at line 1:

14:03:53 [jim]

ORA-00972: identifier is too long

14:05:54 [jim]

hmm, maybe I need 8.1.7?

14:07:18 [cro]

cro has left #openacs

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14:23:45 [pete_openmsg]

pete_openmsg has quit ("KVIrc 2.1.1 'Monolith'")

14:31:55 [davb]

oh, could be.

14:34:53 [docwolf]

docwolf (~wolf@adsl-34-224-116.bct.bellsouth.net) has joined #openacs

14:35:11 [docwolf]

hola

14:35:14 [talli]

everyone run!

14:35:28 [docwolf]

I am not an animal! I AM A HUMAN BEING!

14:35:40 [jim]

this was in the throes of installing latest dotlrn pkgs; specifically "dotlrn"

14:36:00 [talli]

klingons are not human beings

14:36:11 [talli]

you, my friend, are a klingon

14:36:42 [docwolf]

i fancy myself more as a horta/rock monster than a klingon

14:37:28 [docwolf]

anyway,

14:38:24 [docwolf]

does anyone know where i can get good, simple web art (like graphics to make the edges of a table rounded off, etc.)

14:38:54 [davb]

Macromedia Fireworks :)

14:39:03 [docwolf]

i'm really lazy though

14:39:13 [davb]

jim, i think it does require 8.1.7

14:39:26 [docwolf]

is there any CDROM with all of that basic stuff done?

14:39:36 [jim]

yeah, installing that now

14:39:47 [davb]

I have seen them before, but I don't have any specifics.

14:42:31 [davb]

docwolf, we are talking what 5 mins?

14:42:33 [davb]

:)

14:42:43 [davb]

google is not returning anything really promising.

14:42:51 [docwolf]

nothing is ever 5 minutes

14:43:04 [docwolf]

i just need pre-done edges that work against a white background

14:43:07 [docwolf]

like amazon

14:43:09 [docwolf]

but NOT amazon

14:43:10 [jim]

except 3-minute eggs ;)

14:43:10 [davb]

right.

14:43:36 [davb]

shit,

14:43:45 [davb]

i closed the browser with the nice bboard reply i was writing

14:46:48 [davb]

it is very difficult to develop a database app with 2 people who do not understand SQL at all.

14:47:12 [cro]

tell me about it

14:47:48 [davb]

:)

14:47:59 [davb]

We are using MS access, so it is even more fun.

14:48:22 [davb]

they decided copying a pile of data into an impossibly wide table was better than a complex query.

14:49:21 [davb]

ETP needs sort options on the section admin page, i have alot of items and the newest ones are at the bottom. i should be able to search by posting date, title, and maybe something else.

14:52:02 [docwolf]

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14:52:57 [jim]

perhaps reverse-order sorts too

14:53:12 [davb]

yes, the old, click on the column title to sort in the other direction trick.

14:53:24 [davb]

that has to be a widget or something already in there.

14:53:34 [jim]

certainly a known UI...

14:54:22 [jim]

or it's so simple it's considered atomic to write

14:54:29 [davb]

could be.

14:54:46 [jim]

like <buh> ... </buh>

14:56:29 [jim]

wait, no, you're right; it's in there. look in the package mgr

14:56:38 [davb]

cool.

14:56:55 [jim]

I dunno what you'll find there, but they use that there.

14:57:03 [davb]

thanks

14:57:47 [davb]

I need to program up a new banner ideas module based on the CR. so you can map a cr-item to a banner idea. and then make it a new-portal portlet.

14:58:29 [davb]

it could also be used for text ads.

14:59:41 [talli]

davb: that would be very cool

15:00:35 [davb]

I am thinking of a optional custom proc to be attached to an application/content-type in ETP, that would allow you to run some code when a new etp application is created. for example set permissions so that registered users can suggest items, but not delete or change them etc.

15:00:35 [docwolf]

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15:03:42 [davb]

docwolf: the motherlode http://dmoz.org/Computers/Graphics/Web/Free/

15:03:56 [docwolf]

sweet! thanks

15:04:09 [docwolf]

oh my god

15:04:10 [vinod]

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15:04:14 [docwolf]

that's a heinous index

15:04:22 [docwolf]

i may just go into fireworks

15:05:21 [davb]

vinod!

15:05:40 [davb]

and on broadband!

15:05:46 [vinod]

hi davb!

15:05:50 [vinod]

yup!

15:06:01 [vinod]

* vinod loves the internet again :-)

15:06:15 [davb]

be careful you don't overdose

15:06:36 [vinod]

haha

15:06:47 [vinod]

i can quit anytime i want

15:06:54 [davb]

sure....

15:07:00 [vinod]

:-)

15:07:41 [davb]

or not necessarily illegal, more like discouraged by the ISP

15:08:16 [vinod]

can i use the development HEAD again now? all the 4.5 changes should be merged in, right?

15:08:41 [davb]

I suspect that is the plan. probably not until next week though.

15:08:43 [davb]

at least.

15:08:55 [davb]

oh, they might be merged already.

15:09:09 [vinod]

ok - that'll give me time to learn about CVS all over again anyway

15:11:05 [davb]

lars has some good short tips here: http://www.pinds.com/acs-tips/openacs-setup

15:11:21 [vinod]

cool - thanks!

15:11:35 [davb]

thank lars :)

15:27:37 [rbm]

oom

15:27:51 [davb]

howdy rbm

15:28:03 [rbm]

what's going on?

15:32:54 [rbm]

paje: live!

15:32:55 [paje]

rbm: huh?

15:32:58 [paje1]

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15:33:07 [rbm]

uh oh, paje was alive already

15:33:14 [rbm]

* rbm commits bot murder

15:33:18 [paje1]

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15:34:17 [jim]

burder!

15:36:01 [jim]

redrub!

15:36:01 [rbm]

I need a KVM switch

15:36:01 [cro]

ebay

15:36:01 [rbm]

recommended brand/model?

15:36:09 [cro]

Belkin is OK

15:36:13 [cro]

We have a couple

15:36:19 [cro]

How many ports

15:36:20 [cro]

?

15:36:38 [rbm]

It'd amesome to have 3, but 2 will do

15:37:00 [cro]

I haven't used any other brand, so I'm not a very good judge.

15:54:32 [davb]

bbl.

16:08:32 [docwolf]

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17:21:24 [rbm]

Infraphylax: around?

17:21:27 [rbm]

asquare?

17:21:33 [rbm]

paje: seen Infraphylax

17:21:33 [paje]

Infraphylax was last seen on #openacs 16 hours, 33 minutes and 25 seconds ago, saying: I lack [Tue Jun 18 19:48:12 2002]

17:21:58 [davb]

ok.

17:22:53 [davb]

i want a package that lets me upload images to the CR. then I want to use those photos in another package. I am thinking of an acs-service-contract so that I could adapt photo-album, or use another package to fufil the image uploading duties.

17:23:15 [davb]

then ETP can get the image imformation, without know the specific api of the photo package.

17:23:32 [rbm]

sounds good

17:23:36 [talli]

davb: can you write up some of these ideas and send them to luke?

17:23:44 [davb]

talli: sure.

17:23:59 [davb]

i just thought of this, because I want to use it on my site, like today :)

17:24:08 [davb]

but it probably requires a little more design.

17:24:54 [talli]

i know that luke had some ideas on how to use the photo album with ETP

17:25:19 [davb]

i am just wondering what opeartions a client package would need? I am thinking of just one operation, get_image_info which should return a url fragment, width and height, and caption or description.

17:25:35 [davb]

talli: that is right. when I get it all thought out, i'll actually post to the bboard.

17:25:56 [davb]

certainly adding the service contract to photo-alnum would be the fastest way to test it.

17:26:46 [davb]

of course, photo-album can generate small,medium, and large images, so maybe the get_image_info should specify the image_id and the size requested.

17:27:22 [davb]

and I will need a little user interface to pick the image and assign it to the etp item.

17:29:48 [davb]

hmmm. this is getting tricky.

17:29:59 [davb]

i will finish etp 2.0 first.

17:34:09 [talli]

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18:06:17 [Infraphylax]

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18:12:35 [lilo]

[GlobalNotice] Hi all. If you haven't had a chance, please take a look at http://somegeek.org/status.html (updated today). The site may be overloaded at first but please give it a try. Thanks.

18:40:49 [markd2]

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18:59:11 [talli]

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19:01:09 [davb]

if I want to update a table, i need to use db_dml?

19:04:22 [markd2]

that's what I use

19:04:29 [markd2]

whether it's right or not, that's another question :-)

19:05:07 [davb]

heh

19:05:14 [davb]

it worked. i was using the wrong field name

19:23:11 [davb]

time to go. bbl

19:23:14 [jim]

I'm trying to install oracle (successful up

19:23:28 [davb]

oh no! oracle killed jim

19:23:46 [markd2]

oracle absorbs another life force to feed the hungry collective

19:23:55 [davb]

jim: you need the glibc-stubs.tar.gz

19:24:02 [jim]

I do?

19:24:07 [markd2]

Suse has good install notes

19:24:08 [davb]

probably.

19:24:15 [davb]

yes, i use their notes.

19:24:23 [davb]

also there is a bug in one of the scripts.

19:24:29 [jim]

is this related to the initial database install?

19:24:44 [davb]

hmmm. let me google

19:25:24 [davb]

check this: http://www.suse.com/en/support/oracle/db/817_71.html

19:26:15 [davb]

i can never get the listener working, so my intermedia stuff of openacs always fails.

19:26:53 [davb]

jim I think so. you need to apply the patch before creating the database.

19:27:21 [davb]

I am really sorry, I should have told you before. I usually reinstall at least twice before getting oracle working.

19:28:10 [markd2]

davb:lemme know next time you have listener problems

19:28:21 [markd2]

I passed a test in that stuff, so hopefully I can figure it out :-)

19:28:34 [jim]

it's not in any way your fault :)

19:28:55 [davb]

ok. the net8 creation assistant never finishes, it just hangs. I'll ask you sometime. i copied vinod's listener config files and i got it working way back. i don't care enough to fix it right now :)

19:30:48 [davb]

ok i am really going home now. bbl

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22:22:13 [sash]

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22:23:05 [sash]

jim: Another useful resource for Oracle installation is http://www.greenpeace.org/~bruno/oracle.html

22:23:22 [jim]

sash: thanks :)

22:24:04 [jim]

I did the relinking... now it accepts the passwd... but now it's claiming the db is closed on every command

22:24:11 [sash]

jim: While you're at it, you may want to use locally managed tablespaces. Note that SYSTEM can only be dictionary.

22:24:29 [jim]

locally managed?

22:25:47 [jim]

* jim thinks about looking at his oracle: the complete reference

22:26:24 [sash]

LMT uses bitmaps to track used & free space not the data dictionary.

22:27:13 [jim]

hmmm... you mean block by block?

22:28:27 [sash]

Have a look at Linux Maximus: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=5840. It stores a map of available and used blocks.

22:28:58 [sash]

Ext3 seems to give nice performance.

22:29:42 [jim]

well, I'll look at that stuff... but presently, I'm stuck at creating the initial database...

22:30:33 [rbm]

...but ext3 has quite a few bugs still

22:31:09 [jim]

it's making the claim "database not open" after each command

22:33:47 [sash]

You can also patch 2.4.18 kernel w/ the Linux Scalability Effort: http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=8875&release_id=93554 Look for Carrier 4.

22:34:54 [jim]

I'll look into that too... still, presently can't use performance enhancements when I can't get things to work :)

22:35:04 [sash]

I'd probably try to re-install.

22:35:33 [sash]

After modifying the glibc stuff as Bruno's recipe demands.

22:36:09 [jim]

maybe I'll reinstall potato...

22:36:27 [sash]

Are you using Woody?

22:36:32 [jim]

yeah

22:36:44 [sash]

I don't think you need to change.

22:37:40 [jim]

well, if I do go with potato (and a recent 2.4 kernel), the glibc mods should be unnecessary...

22:37:57 [jim]

and I can factor all those out

22:38:54 [sash]

I sent a memo to davb about interMedia failing on 8.1.7 since Oracle doesn't create the dirs: mkdir -p /ora8/$interMedia_partition_name/app/oracle/oradata/ to fix

22:39:57 [sash]

Or you could try Bruno's recipe. I think it requires an 18MB d/load.

22:40:49 [sash]

And it's easy to remove his glibc compatibility file.

22:40:55 [jim]

well, I probably want to try eliminating problem factors to see what the actual cause is

22:41:47 [sash]

I had problems w/ the glibc.stubs fix. runInstaller refusing to start up, long waits.

22:42:16 [sash]

That said, the SuSE link has some useful hints.

22:43:07 [jim]

it looks like some of the problems mentioned there dont' exist in .0.0 but were introduced in .0.1

22:43:54 [sash]

What version of Oracle are you using?

22:44:37 [jim]

specifically the RUID line works fine (the closing ' is not missing) and the RMF line is not missing the quotes

22:44:59 [jim]

well, many, but right now dealing with 8.1.7.0.0

22:45:29 [jim]

which I have absolutely gotten to work in the past...

22:45:58 [jim]

right down to the exact same CD

22:47:49 [jim]

(on another box I'm running 8.1.6 and the problem there is the new changes to dotlrn fail because an identifier is too long...)

22:48:05 [sash]

Ah. Another thing that I found was that w/ 8.1.7.0.1 my Oracle SID wasn't being set. I had to set the ORACLE_SID_INST parameter in /ora8/m01/app/oracle/product/8.1.7/root.sh

22:48:49 [sash]

Did you see a large jump (~2X) in DB creation time for 8.1.7 versus 8.1.6?

22:48:49 [jim]

hmm, I should look into that

22:49:07 [sash]

W/ 8.1.7.0.0, you may be fine.

22:49:42 [jim]

yes, I believe so (however note, in those cases I was running glibc-2.1.3)

22:50:21 [jim]

hmm, maybe I could install that lib into a non-intrusive place, and tell oracle to use it

22:51:00 [jim]

I believe I did see a large jump in db create time...

22:51:15 [jim]

I think the 8.1.7.0.0 one took three hours

22:53:04 [sash]

Yes, that's what Bruno's glibc compatibility file is. You symlink gcc and ld to his versions. And "mv libc.so libdl.so libm.so libpthread.so saved" As well as the .a versions. *Snap* took me three hours too.

22:54:17 [sash]

After you're finished w/ Oracle, just restore.

22:54:39 [jim]

* jim puts off potato install until next iteration...

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22:55:00 [rbm]

* rbm goes home, defeated for the time being, by Acrobat

22:55:07 [sash]

jim: Are there any lectures missing on the aDuni 80GB drive?

22:56:16 [jim]

the math lectures

22:56:57 [jim]

they didn't include those due to audio problems

22:57:44 [jim]

what I'm finding missing is one of the sicp problem sets (the picture language one)

22:57:53 [sash]

Do you have alternative lectures, say of the year afterwards?

22:58:11 [jim]

there was no other years they operated...

22:58:36 [jim]

* jim will return shortly... 15-25 mins

23:00:33 [sash]

jim: I meant that some of the aDuni courses were based on pre-existing MIT ones.

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23:20:27 [davb]

hi

23:21:04 [sash]

hello

23:21:24 [sash]

Did you get the memo?

23:23:03 [davb]

no

23:24:45 [sash]

interMedia fails on 8.1.7 since Oracle doesn't create the dirs. I fixed it before DB creation by "mkdir -p /ora8/$interMedia_partition_name/app/oracle/oradata/"

23:25:24 [davb]

cool, that is very helpful

23:25:44 [sash]

No problem.

23:26:45 [sash]

Right, time to become a lurker again.

23:26:59 [sash]

Goodnight.

23:27:07 [sash]

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23:27:07 [davb]

goodnight

23:28:24 [davb]

ah, i should probably identify myself to nickserv more often.

23:30:04 [davb]

http://www.greenpeace.org/~bruno/oracle.html

23:30:04 [oacs-chump]

A: http://www.greenpeace.org/~bruno/oracle.html from davb

23:30:11 [davb]

A:|Oracle Install Tips

23:30:11 [oacs-chump]

titled item A

23:30:34 [davb]

http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=5840

23:30:34 [oacs-chump]

B: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=5840 from davb

23:30:54 [davb]

B:|Linux Maximus: Gladiator-like Oracle Performance

23:30:54 [oacs-chump]

titled item B

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23:43:23 [Infraphylax]

paje, can you convert cylinders to megabytes?

23:43:23 [paje]

i haven't a clue, infraphylax

23:43:35 [Infraphylax]

anyone awake?

23:44:06 [davb]

Infraphylax: depends on the size of the cylinder

23:44:21 [Infraphylax]

heh

23:44:28 [Infraphylax]

I think I need to turn off my other computer

23:46:37 [davb]

too tired to think.

23:46:40 [davb]

time to play games

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