IRC log of openacs on 2002-06-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:01:59 [mbr]
who's here?
00:02:00 [paje]
somebody said here was what happens: if I don't have anything in rzolf's form
00:02:48 [davb]
not me
00:03:43 [denshi]
I'm here
00:03:55 [davb]
oh, wait, i am here too, oops
00:04:07 [denshi]
does anyone use acs-groups seriously?
00:04:17 [mbr]
heh
00:04:20 [mbr]
Cool :)
00:04:22 [mbr]
I have discovered!
00:04:30 [markd2]
markd2 (~Snak@h166-102-041-110.ip.alltel.net) has joined #Openacs
00:04:31 [mbr]
Well, not really..just experimented until I learned some things
00:04:34 [mbr]
Hey Mark!
00:04:40 [mbr]
Domo domo domo domo!
00:04:40 [davb]
hi markd2
00:04:43 [markd2]
bork
00:04:43 [denshi]
you've discovered mark!
00:04:51 [davb]
i have discovered ogg
00:04:51 [markd2]
hey davb
00:04:55 [mbr]
LOL
00:05:01 [denshi]
mbr, do you have domo^4 bound to a hotkey?
00:05:09 [mbr]
No, should I?
00:05:18 [markd2]
do you know what I need to do to get mozilla to show the 'favorite icon' for my site?
00:05:27 [markd2]
like slashdot has its little icon when you load the page
00:05:31 [davb]
cool! it works
00:05:43 [markd2]
I've created a favicon.ico and I don't see it for borkware :-(
00:05:44 [rbm]
davb: did you see my proposal?
00:05:49 [davb]
favicon.ico
00:06:32 [davb]
me neither. hmmm.
00:06:34 [markd2]
I got one of those :-( doesn't work
00:06:51 [markd2]
I figured I'd use one of your spiffy B bullet thingies
00:07:31 [davb]
here you go
00:07:34 [davb]
http://www.favicon.com/
00:07:34 [oacs-chump]
A: http://www.favicon.com/ from davb
00:07:46 [markd2]
davb++ thanks
00:07:47 [rbm]
davb: did you see my proposal?!@$*!@#)!@*
00:08:08 [davb]
rbm: sorrry..
00:08:15 [davb]
yes i did. sounds good to me.
00:08:24 [rbm]
I'm off to cook some pasteis. bbl
00:08:24 [davb]
problem is I think the page flow needs to change.
00:12:56 [markd2]
woot! got the icon now.
00:13:02 [markd2]
need to add <link REL="shortcut icon" HREF="/favicon.ico" TYPE="image/x-icon"> to the page
00:13:16 [davb]
ah, neat.
00:13:43 [davb]
cool.
00:14:35 [davb]
i love ogg. i am going to encode all my cds. now i just need to see if i can find a nice tool to make it easy.
00:14:47 [mbr]
what's a good way to get some positive credit?
00:14:59 [markd2]
get a credit card. charge stuff. pay it on time.
00:15:15 [markd2]
on-time, as in promptly
00:15:20 [mbr]
yeah...what if they won't give you a credit card because you have 0 credit?
00:15:24 [markd2]
not on-time, as in sprea dout lots of time
00:15:26 [mbr]
no good, no bad...just none
00:15:28 [markd2]
get a secrued credit card
00:15:33 [davb]
go to college. banks love college students
00:15:36 [mbr]
What's a secured credit card?
00:15:45 [davb]
try a store credit card.
00:15:54 [markd2]
you let the credit card company hang on to a deposit. That's your credit limit
00:15:56 [mbr]
my friend did
00:16:01 [mbr]
ah
00:16:03 [markd2]
store credit cards work well
00:16:28 [mbr]
They won't give him any
00:16:35 [mbr]
he tried Exxon, Sears, Old Navy
00:16:40 [davb]
oh. secured almost always will work.
00:16:56 [mbr]
Any "safe" places to get one from?
00:16:56 [markd2]
yeah. that's the credit card of last resort for folks with really *bad* credit
00:17:04 [markd2]
the big banks probably do it
00:17:06 [mbr]
but he just has non
00:17:30 [markd2]
also, a store may bend the rules and give him a card if he can show a couple of months of paystubs
00:17:45 [markd2]
since it's in their best interest to get the cards to folks who wont default
00:18:10 [mbr]
What about debit cards?
00:18:17 [mbr]
Don't they work like a secured credit card?
00:18:36 [markd2]
I don't like debit cards
00:18:42 [markd2]
since they suck money directly out of your account
00:18:52 [mbr]
right, but do they get you credit?
00:18:56 [mbr]
Or is it just like writing a check?
00:18:58 [markd2]
I don't think so
00:19:07 [markd2]
they're like checks
00:19:11 [markd2]
writing checks doesn't improve your credit line :-)
00:19:17 [rbm]
davb: use grip. It does oggs
00:19:19 [mbr]
right
00:19:43 [markd2]
also, if he can get someone to co-sign the card who does have good credit, that would work
00:19:49 [markd2]
it'd have to be someone that really trusts him, though
00:20:16 [mbr]
heh
00:20:19 [mbr]
His gf should
00:21:27 [rbm]
mbr: I go to college, make little money salary-wise, and have a credit line of $15,000 on my credit card only.
00:21:47 [mbr]
lol
00:21:53 [markd2]
but you
00:21:57 [mbr]
I don't have a problem with credit...my friend does :)
00:21:59 [markd2]
're probably a lot cuter than mbr's friend
00:22:04 [rbm]
mbr: I'm not saying you do
00:22:18 [mbr]
He's also not willing to go to college just to get a credit card
00:22:20 [rbm]
The first credit card I got I had a credit line of $500
00:22:29 [markd2]
taking loans from banks should work too.
00:22:33 [markd2]
that's what banks are there for :-)
00:22:34 [rbm]
yeah
00:22:49 [markd2]
have him borrow $1000 for a new computer, and pay it off over a couple of months
00:24:14 [mbr]
How often do they usually give you credit increases?
00:25:56 [davb]
rbm: grip. i looked but it only had an mp3 tab. :) i'll have to check again.
00:26:01 [markd2]
markd2 has quit ("bork")
00:26:29 [davb]
heh, nm. it is automagically configured for ogg.
00:26:37 [davb]
but it still says mp3 on the tab
00:26:49 [rbm]
davb: You can choose whatever encoder you want. grip is just a front-end. I've encoded oggs with grip.
00:28:15 [mbr]
how is discover card in terms of giving credit?
00:28:22 [mbr]
That's how I got me credit
00:28:35 [rbm]
mbr: Tell him to get a LinuxFund card.
00:29:17 [davb]
argh. it worked before, now it says unable to open cdrom drive
00:29:44 [rbm]
It's a master card, and they'll often (every 6 months or so) offer you a new card. I've found out accidentally that if you accept that card, you can later just ask them to merge both accounts, and voila, your credit line is increased.
00:30:17 [davb]
nm
00:30:46 [mbr]
cool
00:31:39 [talli]
talli (~chatzilla@pool-162-83-234-57.ny5030.east.verizon.net) has joined #openacs
00:31:42 [davb]
ah, fixed. the cd ripping application it was configured for was not installed.
00:32:15 [talli]
hey guys, have another openacs install question
00:32:31 [talli]
i'm at the stage where i've downloaded and untarred openacs to /web
00:32:38 [talli]
however, i was not able to do this as nsadmin
00:32:42 [talli]
only as root
00:32:54 [talli]
upon checking permissions (ls -l), i get this answer
00:33:10 [talli]
talhome web # ls -l
00:33:11 [talli]
total 4
00:33:13 [talli]
drwxr-xr-x 7 501 500 4096 Jun 16 06:52 openweb
00:33:55 [talli]
what do 501 and 500 mean?
00:34:20 [davb]
user and group
00:34:35 [talli]
ah, ok
00:34:42 [talli]
why is it giving me number?
00:34:45 [talli]
numbers?
00:34:46 [davb]
no clue :)
00:35:03 [davb]
they are the user # and group # in passwd and groups files
00:35:06 [talli]
ok, thanks
00:37:09 [talli]
so if i go into /etc/passwd and /etc/group i should be able to find 501 and 500?
00:37:42 [davb]
yes
00:38:33 [talli]
hmmm... there's nothing in those
00:38:37 [talli]
at least for those numbers
00:39:07 [davb]
weird.
00:39:34 [davb]
then I am out of ideas.
00:42:39 [davb]
ls -n shows group/user numbers on my machine.
00:46:24 [mbr]
wow
00:46:40 [mbr]
so this is what it feels like to just have a spontaneous bulb go on in your head
00:46:50 [mbr]
I think I'm in the wrong career field
00:51:52 [talli]
it seems that i cannot create an openacs instance because i don't have permissions over /web
00:52:04 [talli]
how can i create permissions for nsadmin over /web?
00:52:39 [davb]
chown nsadmin.web /web
00:54:14 [davb]
or if you don't want nsadmin to own everything under web, create a directory under that, say openacs and chown that.
00:57:16 [talli]
i'm havin' issues
00:57:38 [davb]
talli. do you have any linux books?
00:57:46 [talli]
not here
00:57:49 [davb]
ah :)
00:57:52 [talli]
i'll have to get them from the office
00:58:11 [davb]
so that won't help.
00:58:26 [denshi]
does anyone use acs-groups heavily?
00:58:38 [davb]
not me. i think dotlrn uses it.
01:02:06 [davb]
denshi: do you have a specific task? or just want general understanding of it?
01:02:22 [denshi]
I'm writing an event management system
01:02:29 [davb]
ah, ok.
01:02:35 [denshi]
people come in groups, right?
01:02:44 [davb]
or course.
01:02:55 [denshi]
and there are distinct types of groups...
01:03:07 [davb]
yes.
01:03:26 [denshi]
so I can define group type for each one of those and create attributes for each type
01:04:35 [davb]
yes.
01:04:40 [denshi]
now, when people interact with this system, do you think the primary table supporting the interface should be acs_groups, and that the pages should be generic and driven by attributes-of-types?
01:05:09 [denshi]
so I'm wondering if there is some functionality to autobuild group-filling pages
01:05:27 [talli]
denshi: i know that furfly is writing an event management system for dotlrn
01:05:33 [talli]
i don't klnow what the status of it is
01:05:42 [talli]
except that it was supposed to be done RSN
01:07:14 [davb]
denshi: i don't see how that would work. must be beyond my thinking skills now. I would expect a system that was based on the type of event.
01:07:28 [denshi]
ignore the event for now
01:07:38 [denshi]
think about the type of group
01:08:11 [davb]
ok.
01:08:50 [davb]
so I would get a different displ;ay depending on what type of user I am?
01:09:04 [davb]
that seems like a good idea.
01:09:06 [denshi]
yes
01:09:55 [davb]
i think the designers envisioned it more as a permissioning kind of group thing.
01:12:35 [denshi]
well, the actual 'add group' pages do what I'm talking about
01:12:45 [denshi]
I'm just wondering if anyone has broken that out and generalized it
01:16:20 [denshi]
* denshi searches Gnutella for Duke Ellington and wonders why jazz fans don't make bootleg concert recordings
01:57:57 [talli]
denshi that's a seriously philosophical question
01:58:07 [talli]
in my experience, people do make bootlegs
01:58:14 [talli]
but they ask the performers before recording it
01:58:33 [talli]
and putting them online for free would be a disrespect
01:59:02 [talli]
oh, and i don't know how many people had access to microcassettes in the 30's and 40's
02:00:07 [davb]
good night
02:00:15 [talli]
later davb
02:00:17 [talli]
thanks for the help
02:00:22 [talli]
also, i think i found my problem
02:00:24 [davb]
we will tackly the horrendous admin UI in the morning.
02:00:31 [davb]
talli: no problem, and cool.
02:00:41 [talli]
i seem to have forgotten to create an nsadmin group :(
02:00:46 [davb]
oops.
02:01:10 [davb]
davb is now known as davb-sleep
02:04:07 [talli]
denshi: how can i find out who is in a partcular group?
02:04:13 [denshi]
pray
02:04:16 [denshi]
no, really
02:04:21 [denshi]
I wish I was kidding
02:04:41 [denshi]
okay, I'll have to find out pretty soon
02:04:52 [denshi]
how shall we attack this problem? admin ui or psql?
02:04:54 [talli]
sorry, i meant in linux
02:04:57 [denshi]
oh
02:05:02 [denshi]
cat /etc/groups
02:05:03 [talli]
from bash
02:05:06 [talli]
ah, thanks
02:05:17 [denshi]
I don't know the grp commands off the top of my head
02:05:26 [denshi]
but they exist to do that
02:05:56 [talli]
this is what i'm trying to do
02:05:57 [talli]
web:x:407:
02:05:59 [talli]
talhome root # userdel 407
02:06:00 [talli]
userdel: user 407 does not exist
02:06:02 [talli]
i wnat to delete the web group
02:06:12 [talli]
but i can't seem to do it because of user 407
02:06:16 [talli]
who does not exist
02:07:12 [denshi]
hmmm
02:07:32 [denshi]
just edit /etc/groups and remove the line
02:08:16 [denshi]
or use groupdel
02:10:00 [talli]
ok
02:10:43 [denshi]
paje, seen rbm?
02:10:43 [paje]
rbm was last seen on #openacs 1 hours, 40 minutes and 59 seconds ago, saying: It's a master card, and they'll often (every 6 months or so) offer you a new card. I've found out accidentally that if you accept that card, you can later just ask them to merge both accounts, and voila, your credit line is increased. [Sun Jun 16 19:29:56 2002]
02:10:59 [denshi]
anyone know about rbm's Paypal service contract?
02:12:21 [denshi]
paje?
02:12:21 [paje]
yes, denshi?
02:12:34 [denshi]
paje, get some coffee
02:12:34 [paje]
denshi: what?
02:21:43 [talli]
denshi: can i ask you an install querstion?
02:21:47 [talli]
question
02:21:47 [paje]
i heard question was how does it feel to be a sex symbol?
02:22:06 [denshi]
well, paje, why don't you ask me when you're older
02:22:34 [talli]
as user nsadmin i'm trying to untar the openacs tarball in /web
02:23:02 [talli]
i've chown'ed /web for both nsadmin.web and nsadmin.nsadmin
02:23:11 [talli]
however, when untarring it i get the following message
02:23:13 [talli]
nsadmin@talhome web $ tar xvzf /tmp/openacs-4-5-release.tgz
02:23:15 [talli]
tar (child): /tmp/openacs-4-5-release.tgz: Cannot open: Permission denied
02:23:16 [talli]
tar (child): Error is not recoverable: exiting now
02:23:18 [talli]
tar: Child returned status 2
02:23:19 [talli]
tar: Error exit delayed from previous errors
02:27:14 [talli]
denshi: you there?
02:27:21 [denshi]
barely
02:27:35 [denshi]
give me the output for
02:27:44 [denshi]
'ls -l /', please
02:28:04 [denshi]
wait, what am I saying?
02:28:31 [denshi]
the file /tmp/openacs-4-5-release.tgz doesn't have read privs for nsadmin
02:28:44 [denshi]
give me 'ls -l /tmp/openacs-4-5-release.tgz'
02:29:25 [talli]
sh-2.05a$ ls -l /tmp/openacs-4-5-release.tgz
02:29:26 [talli]
-rw------- 1 talli users 7466849 Jun 16 19:08 /tmp/openacs-4-5-release.tgz
02:29:58 [talli]
hmmm... i guess nsadmin can't touch it
02:30:07 [talli]
hammer, break it down
02:33:59 [talli]
denshi: mme thinks i got ite think
02:34:01 [talli]
thanks
02:34:35 [talli]
woo hoo! me gots it!
02:36:24 [denshi]
all we need now is a big pile of money
02:54:21 [talli]
ok, so where do we download apms?
02:56:47 [talli]
namely, general comments
03:00:42 [talli]
anyone around?
03:04:45 [mbr]
no :)
03:04:57 [mbr]
Someone is going to give me a big pile of money?
03:05:14 [talli]
hey mbr
03:05:17 [talli]
maybe you can help me
03:05:26 [talli]
how do i get a package isntalled on a fresh OACS install?
03:05:34 [talli]
i want to get general comments in there
03:05:40 [talli]
but i can't find the apms
03:05:59 [talli]
and i can't figure out how to load general comments from the /web/birdnotes/packages directory
03:06:08 [talli]
can anyone answer this question this eve?
03:08:00 [talli]
denshi: you still there?
03:08:03 [talli]
rbm: you around?
03:08:08 [talli]
i need some serious newbie help
03:08:25 [denshi]
yes, but I don't listen unless my irc client beeps at me
03:08:42 [denshi]
so you've got focus. shoot
03:08:58 [talli]
how do i get general comments installed on a fresh oacs install?
03:09:08 [talli]
everything's good
03:09:10 [talli]
it's all alive
03:09:21 [talli]
but now i'm just trying to figure out how to get general comments in there
03:09:52 [talli]
where do i download an apm? or, alternatively, how do i get the general comments in /web/birdnotes/packages/general-comments installed?
03:09:55 [denshi]
go to site-map
03:10:12 [denshi]
wait, no, belay that
03:10:26 [talli]
ok
03:10:29 [mbr]
hmmm
03:10:31 [mbr]
it's been a while
03:10:36 [denshi]
go to /acs-admin and then to ACS Package Manager
03:10:38 [talli]
general comments isnt't installed
03:10:40 [talli]
ok
03:10:54 [mbr]
yeah, you need to do what denshi said
03:10:57 [talli]
yeah, i've been there
03:11:00 [mbr]
then I think you need to mount it?
03:11:00 [denshi]
smack the 'Install packages' link at the bottom
03:11:03 [talli]
but i don't know where to get teh apm
03:11:10 [talli]
ok
03:11:11 [mbr]
It should be in CVS?
03:11:19 [denshi]
wasn't it included with the release tarball?
03:11:25 [talli]
not the apm
03:11:41 [talli]
maybe i do have to much around cvs
03:11:54 [denshi]
just humor me and go to 'Install Packages'
03:12:20 [denshi]
as an aside, has anyone installed OACS4-ready aolserver on FreeBSD?
03:12:57 [talli]
no
03:13:05 [talli]
i did go to install packages
03:13:11 [talli]
perhaps the apms are in teh nightly tarball?
03:13:38 [talli]
is there an aolserver that is built for freebsd?
03:13:43 [talli]
is that the one gilbert did?
03:16:44 [mbr]
* mbr raises his hand
03:17:05 [mbr]
I installed OACS4 on BSD like 9 months ago
03:17:23 [mbr]
I wonder if Dave has a log for that
03:17:44 [mbr]
One thing I do remember is having to hack some C files to enable some things
03:18:56 [denshi]
* denshi swears
03:19:04 [denshi]
is there a binary anywhere?
03:24:44 [talli]
paje, seen rbm
03:24:44 [paje]
rbm was last seen on #openacs 2 hours, 55 minutes and 0 seconds ago, saying: It's a master card, and they'll often (every 6 months or so) offer you a new card. I've found out accidentally that if you accept that card, you can later just ask them to merge both accounts, and voila, your credit line is increased. [Sun Jun 16 19:29:56 2002]
03:25:12 [talli]
how do we access the oacs cvs files?
03:26:17 [mbr]
Hmmm
03:26:29 [mbr]
let's see if ssh still works
03:26:54 [mbr]
nope, ssh is off on that box
03:28:12 [mbr]
talli did you try this: http://openacs.org/doc/openacs-4/openacs.html
03:28:47 [talli]
yeah
03:28:56 [talli]
i got the apm from ybos' website
03:29:01 [mbr]
k
03:29:11 [mbr]
you don't need the cvs info anymore then?
03:34:39 [talli]
damn
03:34:44 [talli]
i do need that info
03:34:46 [talli]
sorry
03:38:25 [talli]
friggin' A! i got it to work!
03:38:30 [talli]
total hacks necessary, though
03:38:43 [talli]
and i only got it to work because i had access to other tools
03:38:43 [denshi]
excellent
03:38:50 [talli]
access to other sites, that is
03:38:56 [talli]
anyway, this is a good learning experience
03:38:58 [denshi]
mbr, he called you a tool
03:39:08 [talli]
will have to discuss it with rbm and davb-sleep tomorrow, re: docs
03:39:22 [denshi]
I'm no further on finding a binary package of oacs4.5 aolserver
03:41:25 [talli]
http://www.openacs.org/software.adp
03:41:25 [oacs-chump]
B: http://www.openacs.org/software.adp from talli
03:41:41 [talli]
B: Place to find software for OACS
03:41:41 [oacs-chump]
added comment B1
03:41:48 [talli]
uptime.openacs.org
03:42:57 [talli]
denshi: http://www.orchardlabs.com/freebsd/
03:43:56 [denshi]
whoa. the elusive Gilbert
03:44:41 [talli]
i must admit
03:44:48 [talli]
installing the oacs was a massive PITA
03:45:09 [talli]
maybe i'm just a wus
03:45:15 [talli]
well, i am certainly a wuss
03:45:22 [talli]
but there's got to be a better way of doing that
03:46:24 [denshi]
anyone else know Gilbert?
03:46:28 [denshi]
Wong, I mean
03:46:36 [denshi]
who runs this orchardlabs
03:54:46 [talli]
a wise sentense on slashdot
03:54:51 [talli]
"Hey, a badly-reasoned ill-informed load of Ayn Rand bullshit posted on Slashdot by a complete nobody in Butt-Phuck, Nebraska, is good enough to get moderated up to +5, Informative -- so it must be true!!"
03:55:22 [talli]
orchard labs is run by gilbert, who seems to have many different talents
03:58:37 [rbm]
oom?
03:59:47 [rbm]
denshi: My paypal service contract is coming along. I'm almost done with it. Had to make some decisions as to how to best integrate it with the e-commerce package and the ACS Service Contract framework
04:01:17 [talli]
rbm: i got oacs installed!
04:01:23 [talli]
oof. what a pain, thogh
04:48:06 [rbm]
talli: Yeah, it'd be cool to have RPMs
04:48:32 [rbm]
Installing OACS itself is not too bad. It's compiling all the aolserver stuff that takes most time, /me thinks
04:53:12 [rbm]
73lab.com has some pretty cool Linux/GNU art
04:54:55 [rbm]
* rbm goes to watch Mexico and USA
07:12:58 [radam]
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09:42:47 [davb-sleep]
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09:52:44 [davb]
hi radam, still around?
09:53:37 [davb]
* davb thinks part of talli's problem is linux sysadmin related...
10:08:26 [davb]
bbl
10:08:27 [davb]
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11:27:10 [davb]
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11:30:05 [davb]
hi
11:30:05 [paje]
hello, davb
11:32:23 [larspind]
larspind (~none@213.237.67.169.adsl.by.worldonline.dk) has joined #openacs
11:32:55 [davb]
hi lars
11:34:02 [larspind]
Hi
11:34:03 [paje]
hola, larspind
11:45:34 [talli]
hey guys
11:45:46 [talli]
davb: my issues were certainly linux sysadmin ones
11:45:52 [talli]
but i also had an issue loading packages
11:46:23 [talli]
when i finally got everything installed, the packages in /web/whatever/packages were not available to be installed
11:46:27 [talli]
but more on that later
11:46:30 [talli]
gotta head out now
11:52:53 [davb]
ok.
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12:04:19 [denshi]
hello lars
12:12:02 [markd2]
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12:16:48 [denshi]
bork!
12:27:00 [markd2]
densi!
12:27:01 [markd2]
paje!
12:27:09 [markd2]
er, densHi
12:40:06 [mbr]
bark!
12:40:06 [davb]
lars, rbm and I are planning on going through the admin UI soon and cleaning it up as much as we can.
12:40:11 [mbr]
i mean morning
12:41:14 [mbr]
late for court
12:41:17 [mbr]
check ya laterz
12:43:55 [markd2]
the people's court
12:50:49 [markd2]
125 * 5
12:50:49 [cro]
cro (~cro@defiant.nca.asu.edu) has joined #openacs
12:50:52 [markd2]
125 * 5.0
12:50:52 [paje]
625
12:56:37 [rbm]
oom
12:58:41 [larspind]
davb, admin UI: COOL! :-)
12:59:59 [rbm]
larspind: We should have done this a long time ago
13:00:11 [larspind]
Yes, I agree.
13:00:26 [larspind]
I actually have some ideas in that regard (not surprisingly)
13:00:36 [rbm]
I'm going to finish this AOLserver 3.3ad13 Debian package, then jump into that
13:00:59 [rbm]
larspind: I'd love to hear them. Let's put these ideas in a quick doc so we don't lose it.
13:01:06 [rbm]
BTW, Brazil is in the quarter finals
13:01:40 [rbm]
larspind: Brazil will play England next, so perhaps we can revenge Denmark :)
13:02:13 [davb]
that was my idea. lets get down the basic concepts we are working towards, and perhaps solicit ideas from the community, and possibly volunteers, especially for testing.
13:02:46 [rbm]
davb: Yeah, but it has to be a quick process, like a couple days max, so we don't lose momentum.
13:03:19 [davb]
sure. more of a tell everyone what we are doing, and then do it. don't wait, but if someone has a good idea, incorporate it.
13:04:28 [rbm]
right
13:04:44 [davb]
i might be in and out, so I'll try to keep up with the conversation, but don't worry if I don't respond right away.
13:05:32 [larspind]
Sounds like a great plan.
13:05:57 [larspind]
My thinking was a bit more long-term, but there's definitely a lot of low-hanging fruit to collect.
13:07:52 [rbm]
larspind: Agreed. But we need to at least fix some more glaring issues right now, then work towards longer-term goals
13:10:13 [larspind]
Exactly.
13:10:19 [larspind]
Here's what I wrote down a while ago
13:10:19 [larspind]
http://www.collaboraid.biz/openacs/user-interface
13:10:19 [oacs-chump]
C: http://www.collaboraid.biz/openacs/user-interface from larspind
13:12:37 [davb]
rbm: lets make a list of things that are broken. I think the groups is probably #1
13:12:47 [davb]
and users.
13:13:05 [larspind]
Groups, yes.
13:13:11 [larspind]
Permissions.
13:13:20 [larspind]
I actually wrote a permissions UI for a client project, that I'd like to contribute
13:14:00 [larspind]
A table with a column for each privilege and a row for each user/group (party), and checkboxes in the cells.
13:14:23 [rbm]
larspind: awesome
13:14:29 [larspind]
With an "add user/group" feature (only lists the users/groups that have been granted permission)
13:14:50 [larspind]
It doesn't scale well with many privileges, in fact, I hard-coded it to only care about the basic read,write,create,delete,admin
13:15:32 [larspind]
But we could fix that, while simultaneously trying to push for the packages being fixed, so they, too use those standard privileges whenever possible.
13:15:45 [larspind]
(I.e. get rid of bboard_forum_read)
13:15:50 [rbm]
Understanding the permissions system is really tough right now.
13:17:24 [larspind]
Permissions are quite impossible to understand and use for normal people right now.
13:18:07 [rbm]
The several times I've looked at it, everytime I think I "get it", I really didn't. And the one time when I actually did get it, it was so volatile I got confused again
13:23:50 [denshi]
is there UI to create membership relations?
13:27:24 [denshi]
I mean, broken out of /admin
13:28:15 [davb]
denshi: that is a good idea. to break out the various admin functions into little pieces, so that it is easier to create a custom interface.
13:28:59 [denshi]
right now, for me, the group system is totally worthless b/c of that
13:29:57 [davb]
you could create your own, just using the build in pl/sql stuff.
13:31:21 [denshi]
"the build in pl/sql stuff"?
13:32:04 [davb]
built in. i assume there is some pl/sql api to work with groups.
13:32:35 [denshi]
and when I find the docs for it, then I'll find out
13:32:59 [davb]
sorry. we want to get the entire tcl and pl/sql apis into the docs, but its not there yet.
13:33:41 [davb]
function membership_rel__new sound right?
13:34:14 [davb]
thre are many membership_rel__foo pl/sql functions
13:47:52 [davb]
http://www.davep.org/emacs/
13:47:52 [oacs-chump]
D: http://www.davep.org/emacs/ from davb
13:48:00 [davb]
D: interesting emacs stuff
13:48:00 [oacs-chump]
added comment D1
14:00:09 [rbm]
almost done with the mega AOLserver package
14:01:00 [davb]
that is great!
14:01:54 [denshi]
...rapidly learning to dislike oacs4...
14:02:19 [denshi]
...can't find my keys...
14:05:59 [davb]
uhoh, we are losing him.....
14:07:31 [markd2]
quick! get the coffee IV!
14:07:37 [davb]
hmmm.
14:08:15 [davb]
i see at api-doc/plsql-subprograms-all, there is a list of all the pl/sql functions. you can look at each to see the source code. we need to extract that, and then document each one. sort them by package.
14:08:58 [davb]
actually i never looked at this page before. its great!
14:09:38 [davb]
it would just be better if it had an explanation of what each one does, and an example of how to use it.
14:10:41 [davb]
maybe i can extract all these to html, and then index them with openfts
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14:16:53 [talli]
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14:17:55 [talli]
hey guys
14:18:06 [bduell]
morning
14:18:09 [cro]
yo
14:18:29 [davb]
hi talli
14:18:58 [talli]
davb: you were right, sysadmin issues were what made up the most of my PITA installing oacs
14:19:19 [davb]
:) I am curious about the package install problem.
14:19:27 [talli]
but also, when i finally had the thing working, the system didn't offer any packages to be installed
14:19:29 [talli]
yeah, me too
14:19:45 [davb]
apm -> install packages didn't have anything in the list?
14:21:17 [davb]
heh
14:21:25 [davb]
i think i figured out my no email from sdm problem
14:23:59 [rbm]
hmm crap, I should have kept notes of what I did to generate self-signed certificates for openssl
14:27:25 [cro]
rbm: examples are on openssl.org or modssl.org, can't remember which.
14:30:23 [rbm]
cro: I know, but not very easy to find.
14:33:04 [rbm]
bduell: thanks
14:35:45 [rbm]
hmmm, I'm getting lots of warnings
14:40:22 [bduell]
what kind of warnings?
14:41:50 [rbm]
Tcl stuff
14:44:02 [rbm]
./../generic/regerror.c:101: warning: passing arg 2 of `__strcpy_small' with different width due to prototype
14:47:08 [talli]
joel on software is such an MS shill it's scary
14:47:15 [talli]
he literally knows nothing other than the MS world
14:47:26 [talli]
at least in the OSS world people are familiar with MS products
14:47:36 [talli]
MS developers are totally clueless outside of their world
14:47:44 [rbm]
talli: amen for that
14:48:23 [rbm]
hmmm, I wonder if I can go pick up this package at fedex
14:49:14 [markd2]
give 'em a call
14:49:27 [markd2]
the fedex folks I've talked to were reasonable when I needed to go pick one up in pittsburgh
14:50:20 [talli]
read joel
14:50:26 [talli]
read joel's latest piece on OSS
14:50:32 [talli]
he makes good, if obvious points
14:50:49 [talli]
but he's still an MS shill
14:51:01 [talli]
at the end he mentions windows "hardware abstaction layer"
14:51:03 [talli]
???
14:51:22 [talli]
if you want to reference hardware abstraction, there's an OS called NetBSD i think that does it ok
14:51:30 [markd2]
that's why NT is available on all sorts of different hardware now!
14:52:42 [rbm]
markd2: I'm looking for the phone number. If only fedex's website made that easier
14:53:14 [rbm]
markd2: exactly! (re: NT)
14:55:13 [talli]
NT is available on different hardware
14:55:20 [talli]
it's on PCs and the Xbox
14:55:24 [talli]
what else do you want from it?
14:57:06 [denshi]
his mangling of microecom is pretty appalling as well
15:00:23 [talli]
yeah
15:00:48 [rbm]
even mentions ArsDigita, apparently unaware that the fall of aD had nothing to do with open source
15:00:49 [talli]
i'm no economist, but i think that the concept of "supply and demand" is not relegated to microeconomics
15:01:00 [talli]
yeah
15:01:13 [markd2]
he's just smoking his socks again
15:01:14 [talli]
and that they were bought by a bigger company even more committed to open source
15:03:13 [denshi]
his facts are also wrong
15:03:41 [denshi]
netscape never "gave away
15:03:44 [denshi]
oops
15:03:50 [denshi]
never gave away the browser
15:04:25 [denshi]
it's just that the download wasn't crippled, thus not many people paid after evaluation was over
15:06:53 [rbm]
crap, my debian package is failing to build :(
15:08:17 [davb]
anyway, there is this little box in the upper right corner of the sdm. there is this link for prefs. the default for mine for emai frequency was "none".
15:08:52 [davb]
so the default is, I'm interested, don't send me any email, or even let me know I can decide if I want any email.
15:09:13 [talli]
rbm: after going through the docs, i have a bunch of suggestions
15:09:14 [davb]
and fo course, after I set the preference, don't let me get back to where I was.
15:09:29 [rbm]
talli: excellent. Add them as comments.
15:09:33 [talli]
perhaps we should set up a lars-musea bugtracker somewhere?
15:09:47 [talli]
well, suggestions on rewriting the docs so they are more clear
15:10:13 [davb]
cool.
15:10:14 [rbm]
talli: perhaps we should move to openacs.museatech.org and install Lars-musea bugtracker
15:10:16 [talli]
the comments should be for, "on my distro, this is how i did it"
15:10:21 [davb]
talli: we really need to get that done.
15:10:23 [talli]
that sounds like a good idea
15:10:28 [talli]
yeah, we do
15:10:34 [rbm]
s/org/net/
15:10:39 [davb]
talli: I have some time. I forgot what the tasks were that needed to be done.
15:10:45 [davb]
email me or put them here.
15:10:45 [rbm]
I think I'm going to bail on the debian package thing.
15:10:57 [talli]
rbm: i think rather than openacs.museatech.net it should be new.openacs.org or something
15:10:59 [rbm]
I'll just build a binary tarball that people can "stow" anywhere
15:11:15 [davb]
ok. rbm. you are reassigned to working on the new openacs.org web site.
15:11:18 [talli]
it's nice that people come to museatech.net, but i don't really think we really need the pub here
15:11:24 [rbm]
talli: Yeah, that's what I meant, but I was trying to save me from typing "the new openacs website that musea built" ;-)
15:11:31 [talli]
yeah, that makes sense
15:11:47 [davb]
talli: should we take what is there and put it up on openacs.org's server?
15:11:47 [rbm]
davb: Yes SIR!
15:11:54 [davb]
:)
15:12:12 [rbm]
On FedEx vehicle for delivery LOGAN UT 06/17/2002 08:49
15:12:15 [talli]
davb: yeah, we should. but i suspect the whole thing will be need to be rebuilt, or at least a good paort of it
15:12:16 [rbm]
Oh YEAH baby!
15:12:40 [davb]
talli: ok. maybe we can just start with the 4.5 release and add your changes in. i haven't looked to see how much has changed.
15:12:41 [rbm]
what do you guys think about the binary tarball?
15:12:42 [talli]
we had to rebuild museatech.net after i added a page to the original ETP and it crashed the whole site
15:12:52 [davb]
rbm: of the whole thing?
15:12:56 [davb]
oops.
15:13:03 [rbm]
davb: Yeah, all th pieces for OpenACS
15:13:07 [davb]
darn. etp 2 needs to get done also. but that cna probably wait.
15:13:12 [davb]
rbm: good idea.
15:13:55 [davb]
what needs to be done is to get the good bits in sdm put into the new bugtracker.
15:14:17 [talli]
rbm: the PITA is not the tar ball or building the tools
15:14:25 [talli]
at least, not for me, but i have a 1GHZ AMD
15:14:27 [rbm]
talli: No? I thought it was.
15:14:46 [talli]
the pain was getting the users in and all the configuration
15:14:52 [rbm]
talli: hmmm
15:14:55 [talli]
rbm: i'm running gentoo ;)
15:15:06 [rbm]
* rbm slaps talli
15:15:10 [rbm]
paje: again!
15:15:10 [paje]
* paje spanks talli
15:15:11 [talli]
it took 18 hours to update my box yesterday
15:15:15 [davb]
still the user configuration is pretty simple. are you sure you followed the directions?
15:15:22 [talli]
but now it's BEEEEAAAAUUUUTIFUL
15:15:29 [davb]
or are the programs different on gentoo?
15:15:31 [talli]
davb: i did follow the directions
15:15:33 [rbm]
I'm not sure why the build is failing... and I have to go to work
15:15:43 [talli]
configuring users is differnet on gentoo
15:15:47 [davb]
ah.
15:15:52 [talli]
like, in order to add nsadmin, this is what i had to do
15:15:53 [davb]
isn't it gnu/linux?
15:16:09 [talli]
rather, add postgres
15:16:14 [rbm]
davb: Yeah, no such foolishness as adduser/useradd. That's for sissies
15:16:20 [davb]
ah.
15:16:22 [davb]
i see.
15:16:22 [rbm]
(:
15:16:28 [talli]
useradd -g postgres -mk /etc/skel postgres
15:16:32 [davb]
real men hack passwd
15:16:38 [talli]
usermod -d /usr/local/postgres -m
15:16:39 [rbm]
exactly
15:17:07 [talli]
for some reason, it didn't recognize useradd -d /usr/local/postgres
15:17:16 [davb]
weird.
15:17:21 [talli]
yeah
15:17:47 [talli]
i'm also having issues with my bash shell, but i just need to read some man pages or ask some nice, kind and helpful people on various IRC channels
15:17:50 [talli]
<shudder>
15:17:53 [davb]
i'll have to try out gentoo. i have some pentium 200s around with 1 gig harddrives.
15:17:59 [talli]
nope
15:18:02 [davb]
good luck finding some.
15:18:04 [talli]
don't even think about
15:18:13 [davb]
too small or too slow?
15:18:17 [talli]
both
15:18:18 [denshi]
the nice, kind, and helpful people are three distinct groups, right?
15:18:21 [davb]
darnies.
15:18:29 [davb]
oh well.
15:18:31 [talli]
gentoo doesn't install on less than 64 mb of ram
15:18:42 [talli]
and do you really want to compile X on a P200?
15:18:52 [davb]
no, i don't want to compile x at all.
15:18:54 [talli]
as a server OS, though, it's great
15:19:01 [talli]
oh, well then as a server it's beautiful
15:19:03 [talli]
really
15:19:14 [davb]
cool.
15:19:25 [talli]
rbm: one of the nice things about portage is that it does all of it's installs in a "sandbox"
15:19:52 [talli]
so it compiles everything in a temporary location optimizing it for your box, then merges it into the system
15:19:58 [davb]
ok. i will try to look at the templates that are already in openacs.museatech.org. we will default to setting up a new openacs 4.5 install on the openacs.org box and go from there.
15:20:04 [davb]
rbm, does that sound good?
15:20:06 [rbm]
talli: that's what Debian does.
15:20:18 [talli]
yes, i imagine it does
15:20:24 [rbm]
talli: It's really easy to rebuild a debian package.
15:20:46 [talli]
the difference between gentoo and debian, really, is that gentoo is set up like BSD ports
15:20:53 [talli]
i imagine many of the other characteristics are the same
15:20:54 [rbm]
davb: sounds great.
15:21:10 [davb]
want to hear something scary. today I am babysitting the "developer" that screwed up our system. i had to watch while he copy and pasted 20 lines of code to update one field in one record.
15:21:33 [rbm]
davb: I could setup an OACS 4.5 install on openacs.org.
15:21:42 [davb]
rbm: can you get that going on the openacs.org side? setup a cvs repository for the site, and get me access to it? :)
15:21:56 [davb]
and anyone else who wants to help of course.
15:21:58 [rbm]
davb: what do you want on the repository?
15:22:37 [rbm]
paje: seen jim?
15:22:38 [paje]
jim was last seen on #openacs 5 days, 7 hours, 41 minutes and 9 seconds ago, saying: just a quick line to let people know I'm around but lacking a connection... [Wed Jun 12 02:41:39 2002]
15:22:40 [rbm]
wow
15:22:42 [davb]
the site. we could just work on the code, but CVS is ncier. have you ever set it up like that?
15:22:45 [rbm]
Where's jim when you need him.
15:23:00 [rbm]
davb: define "the site". Just packages/www or what?
15:24:07 [davb]
rbm... similar to ron henderson's guide to cvs for web development. the entire openacs code would be imported into cvs. then you checkout a copy to work on, and checkout another copy for the production site.
15:24:20 [alltelsucks]
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15:24:38 [davb]
that way i can check out the code to my development machine, aand work there, and check it back in to the openacs server.
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15:25:03 [davb]
Do you do that now for the openacs site, or just edit the files right on the server?
15:25:42 [davb]
depends on how many people we will have helping I guess.
15:25:51 [rbm]
davb: We just edit it right in I think
15:27:19 [davb]
ok. maybe we should ask don quick, although I doubt he is in the right mode to think about the site right now.
15:28:23 [talli]
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15:28:54 [rbm]
davb: think about what?
15:29:24 [davb]
who should decide how to do this?
15:32:11 [rbm]
davb: I can e-mail the other gatekeepers, but I don't think there'd be any problems
15:32:15 [rbm]
or objections
15:32:40 [davb]
ok. do you think it is worth the trouble to use CVS?
15:32:57 [rbm]
It usually is. Most likely other people will want to pitch in
15:33:04 [davb]
ok
15:34:19 [davb]
rbm: i hope i don't come across as ordering you around :) I just figured you have access to the server to get it done.
15:35:04 [rbm]
davb: not at all.
15:35:19 [rbm]
davb: It's called initiative.
15:35:24 [davb]
:)
15:36:01 [rbm]
* rbm likes it that he can actually picture davb on his mind now
15:36:08 [davb]
right. that is cool.
15:36:21 [rbm]
and talli, vinod and many other oacs haxq0rs
15:36:23 [davb]
One of these days i'll find a good picture and put it on my web site.
15:40:43 [davb]
ok, i have to go back to work...i'll be back in a little while
16:10:10 [denshi]
I'm beginning to think that OACS4 is getting too crufty
16:10:42 [denshi]
certainly in the group models
16:12:39 [davb]
why crufty?
16:12:50 [davb]
it's hasen't even been finished yet.
16:12:52 [davb]
:)
16:14:53 [davb]
rbm: read this for cvs info.
16:15:23 [davb]
http://www.pinds.com/acs-tips/openacs-setup
16:15:23 [oacs-chump]
E: http://www.pinds.com/acs-tips/openacs-setup from davb
16:16:10 [denshi]
you know, the kind of object/relation/user/composition mapping really should be part of a language
16:16:17 [denshi]
maybe I should get on that
16:16:53 [denshi]
b/c in OACS4, there's really no way to use it without learning the whole things
16:35:37 [davb]
denshi: you mean create a new langauage to manipulate all that stuff? in tcl or something else?
16:36:17 [denshi]
tcl is not really powerful enough to create a language
16:36:44 [denshi]
but all the domain manipulation stuff should theoretically be in a language
16:36:53 [denshi]
languages are good stuff
16:37:16 [davb]
right. that is what the talk was about.
16:37:30 [denshi]
people create towers of abstraction in libraries and APIs all the time, but the industry only moves forward with new languages
16:37:45 [denshi]
probably b/c languages try to be concise and orthagonal
16:37:46 [davb]
interesting.
16:38:00 [davb]
so you mean a web services toolkit langauage?
16:38:11 [denshi]
yes
16:38:20 [denshi]
which, coincidentally, i have been working on
16:41:58 [davb]
that is really cool.
16:42:19 [davb]
you mentioned it before, but now I understand the idea more.
16:42:39 [denshi]
:)
16:45:12 [k2pts]
k2pts (~nkd@adsl-168-237.cytanet.com.cy) has joined #openacs
16:46:42 [k2pts]
paje: seen rbm
16:46:42 [paje]
rbm was last seen on #openacs 1 hours, 10 minutes and 21 seconds ago, saying: and talli, vinod and many other oacs haxq0rs [Mon Jun 17 10:36:31 2002]
16:48:18 [k2pts]
k2pts has left #openacs
16:54:40 [rbm]
hey
16:55:04 [rbm]
neophytus needs to learn about memoserv
16:57:12 [lilo]
[GlobalNotice] Hi all. If you haven't had a chance, please take a look at http://somegeek.org/status.html (updated today). The site may be overloaded at first but please give it a try. Thanks.
16:58:43 [talli]
talli (~talli@xd84b5c59.ip.ggn.net) has joined #openacs
16:58:48 [talli]
hey guys
16:58:51 [talli]
rbm: you still here?
16:59:15 [rbm]
yeah
16:59:31 [rbm]
talli, davb: We're go for OACS 4.5 running on openacs.org
16:59:42 [talli]
how you feelin' bout england?
16:59:44 [talli]
very cool
16:59:47 [rbm]
Ben and Don replied to my mail
17:00:14 [talli]
very cool
17:00:22 [rbm]
talli: The game? I'm reluctant. Brazil's not good this year and England is. If we pass through England, then I'd say it'll be hard to miss the cup.
17:00:24 [talli]
i imagine that machine is sittnig idle quite a bit
17:00:35 [talli]
is england that good?
17:00:42 [rbm]
they're good this year
17:00:46 [talli]
brazil's "not good" is relative
17:01:37 [talli]
that shot rivaldo made today wasn't that bad
17:01:44 [rbm]
Our defense is poor. Too open, not aggressive enough
17:02:08 [talli]
USA all the way!
17:02:13 [rbm]
Indeed, the offense is okay, but the defense is crap
17:02:20 [talli]
i was happier when the US finished last
17:02:21 [rbm]
Who'll the U.S. play with?
17:02:31 [talli]
the US plays germany next game
17:02:34 [talli]
they are toast
17:02:34 [rbm]
OUCH!
17:02:47 [talli]
where's til?
17:02:47 [paje]
til is still missing some fonts i am afraid ... for example the url's in the oacs sitemap wont show up
17:02:54 [talli]
paje, seen til?
17:02:54 [paje]
til was last seen on #openacs 18 days, 19 hours, 47 minutes and 41 seconds ago, saying: not bad ... doing some openacs work [Wed May 29 16:15:23 2002]
17:02:55 [rbm]
Hmm, so Germany is in the semifinals already. crap.
17:02:57 [talli]
holy
17:03:25 [rbm]
Germany or England or Senegal will take this cup. If more upsets continue happenning, Brazil might take it :)
17:04:24 [rbm]
* rbm leaves. bbl
17:05:13 [talli]
senegal is that good?
17:05:25 [talli]
i would love to see an african country take the cup
17:07:41 [talli]
does anyone in here use evolution for mail?
17:15:08 [davb]
no.
17:16:59 [davb]
:)
17:17:32 [talli]
davb and rbm (when you get back): i think what we should do is install oacs4.5 on the openacs box and set up a bugtracker
17:17:44 [davb]
ok.
17:17:56 [talli]
then we go through the current openacs.museatech.net and find bugs and changes we would like to make to what is already existing
17:18:35 [talli]
i would prefer doing that then trying to write up a plan over IRC
17:19:00 [talli]
but a general work plan and scope is important too
17:20:03 [davb]
we need the merge the visual changes that were made tot he new code base.
17:25:18 [davb]
talli: can someone set up my account over at openacs.museatech.org to be a sitewide admin?
17:25:32 [davb]
maybe I can do it from psql
17:26:06 [talli]
davb: sure
17:26:17 [davb]
wait, i think i can do it.
17:26:37 [rbm]
talli: Is lars' bugtracker on cvs?
17:27:33 [davb]
talli: i can't do it. i don't have permission on the database.
17:27:39 [davb]
so thanks :)
17:28:13 [davb]
rbm, i think its in the development branch. the main branch rather...
17:28:26 [talli]
rbm: it is
17:29:42 [talli]
davb: you should have admin access now
17:29:49 [davb]
cool
17:30:00 [davb]
great thanks
17:30:13 [talli]
check and lemme see
17:30:19 [talli]
check and tell me, i mean
17:30:21 [davb]
works good.
17:30:32 [talli]
cool
17:30:34 [davb]
i wanted to see, and i was right, you are using ETP for some of the content.
17:30:45 [talli]
we really need to update that codebase... it's totally broken
17:30:51 [talli]
we're using ETP for most of the content, i think
17:31:35 [davb]
seems to be working ok right now.
17:31:58 [davb]
looks like i should go through and make all the easy changes for etp 2,
17:32:22 [talli]
well, when after i granted you permissions, i selected the Permissions link on the context bar
17:32:29 [talli]
and.... CRACK!!!
17:32:34 [talli]
massive error message
17:32:36 [davb]
oops.
17:33:03 [talli]
a reminder of the state of the code circa August 2001
17:33:16 [davb]
right.
17:33:48 [davb]
is the openacsorg code in CVS?
17:38:16 [davb]
yes, yes it is.
17:38:35 [davb]
I am checking it out now. i will see if I can somehow merge it with the latest openacs code.
17:41:33 [rbm]
has anyone worked with pdf's here?
17:41:44 [rbm]
(for submitting data through the web, I mean)
17:41:54 [davb]
i read an article about it once :)
17:42:47 [rbm]
It seems to be submitting the post request without a Content-Type header, then another request with just that header
17:43:13 [rbm]
129.123.xxx.xx - - [17/Jun/2002:12:33:24 -0600] "POST /annualtest/part-a.php HTTP/1.1" 200 97
17:43:26 [rbm]
129.123.xxx.xx - - [17/Jun/2002:12:33:24 -0600] "Content-Type: application/x-www-form-urlencoded" 400 -
17:44:20 [davb]
interesting.
17:44:36 [davb]
how do you code the pdf to do that? is it javascript?
17:45:33 [rbm]
PDF forms
17:45:46 [davb]
ah.
17:45:59 [davb]
what do you use to set that up? just acrobat?
17:46:02 [rbm]
but you can put javascript in a PDF. In fact, I'm doing that.
17:46:31 [rbm]
But acrobat has the PDF forms extension, and lets you create forms with a submit button. You can choose what the submit button will do
17:47:02 [davb]
ah, so some magic is happening in the background.
17:47:41 [rbm]
* rbm eyes davb's commit
17:47:51 [davb]
?
17:49:20 [rbm]
N OpenACS Update 2002-06-17/readme.txt
17:49:21 [rbm]
cvs: ERROR: cannot write file /cvsroot/OpenACS Update 2002-06-17/readme.txt,v: No such file or directory
17:49:21 [rbm]
cvs: ERROR: cannot mkdir /cvsroot/OpenACS Update 2002-06-17/bin -- not added: No such file or directory
17:49:21 [rbm]
cvs: ERROR: cannot mkdir /cvsroot/OpenACS Update 2002-06-17/tcl -- not added: No such file or directory
17:49:22 [rbm]
cvs: ERROR: cannot mkdir /cvsroot/OpenACS Update 2002-06-17/packages -- not added: No such file or directory
17:49:26 [rbm]
cvs: ERROR: cannot mkdir /cvsroot/OpenACS Update 2002-06-17/www -- not added: No such file or directory
17:49:29 [rbm]
17:49:32 [rbm]
No conflicts created by this import
17:50:05 [davb]
that is bad.
17:50:12 [davb]
hmmm
17:50:32 [davb]
i wonder exactly what I just screwed up.
17:59:27 [rbm]
The PDF thingy is really seductive, but it's painful to work with
18:01:05 [davb]
i bet.
18:18:32 [k2pts]
k2pts (~nkd@adsl-166-46.cytanet.com.cy) has joined #openacs
18:18:52 [rbm]
k2pts: HEY!
18:18:58 [talli]
hey k2pts!
18:18:59 [k2pts]
hey
18:19:07 [k2pts]
rbm: congrats for you win today :)
18:19:12 [k2pts]
I'm a big fan of Brazil
18:19:16 [rbm]
k2pts: If I'm not here when you stop by, just leave me a memo.
18:19:18 [talli]
hey k2pts, what about us!
18:19:24 [k2pts]
hey talli
18:19:34 [rbm]
k2pts: :) Cool. However, Brazil didn't really deserve to be on the cup
18:19:53 [k2pts]
heh
18:20:11 [talli]
christ, rbm, will you shut up with that? brazil is so spoiled with it's soccer that a team that isn't one of the top 5 is worthless!
18:21:31 [rbm]
talli: I don't know. It really sucked big time earlier this year. It's gotten somewhat better though
18:22:01 [k2pts]
I'm reading the chatlogs and all I have to say is that I never enjoy seeing England or any other team playing, but I do like to see Brazil even if they might lose a game or two
18:22:09 [rbm]
talli: Actually, just look at Senegal. It was not top 5 by any measure, and it's dispatched several top teams home already
18:22:25 [talli]
has brazil lost a game in this cup yet?
18:22:30 [talli]
has senegal lost at all?
18:22:41 [k2pts]
brazil, no
18:22:57 [rbm]
I think senegal had a tie, can't remember
18:23:07 [talli]
is senegal good or lucky?
18:23:19 [rbm]
good and lucky
18:23:50 [rbm]
Those dudes are playing good soccer
18:24:01 [k2pts]
whenever I pro a team and I see them losing, I think to myself it's too hard to win but when Brazil plays I think to myself no problem they can always secure the win no matter what the score (that's the feeling I got when Vilmotz "scored" today)
18:24:49 [rbm]
k2pts: so what were you looking for me for?
18:25:05 [k2pts]
to congratulate you about Brazil :)
18:25:21 [rbm]
k2pts: BTW, I decided, for brevity's and simplicity's sake, to make the paypal gateway an implementation of the payment gateway contract.
18:25:49 [k2pts]
yes, if it can be done it's the best way to go that would be best
18:25:51 [rbm]
I'll have to make some contortions (like use "credit card number" for "paypal account" and send several nulls), but I think it'll work
18:26:47 [rbm]
k2pts: What I'm trying to figure out the best way to go about now, is how to make the e-commerce package offer a paypal form so the user can enter his accounts when no account is found (like when it presents the credit card form to the user)
18:27:28 [k2pts]
I'm just catching up again with OpenACS and I'm thinking of other design improvements to openacs. maybe a new kernel for 5.0... I don't have anything solid yet but a few lose ideas that I'm trying to put together... I'll ask for feedback as soon as I have something solid
18:27:56 [talli]
i hope that for oacs5 we build a *much* better kernel than what exists now
18:28:03 [k2pts]
rbm: about the form, you could modify the page flow w.r.t to the choosen implementation of the payment-gateway
18:28:38 [rbm]
k2pts: That's what I wanted to do, but the e-commerce package pageflow is not documented, and the pages themselves are pretty messy
18:28:46 [k2pts]
talli: I've thought about it a bit and sent don an email that I'm probably gonna work on this one plus an event channel handler
18:29:00 [rbm]
k2pts: However, how would I "discover" which page should I call for a certain implementation?
18:29:13 [k2pts]
but I'll wait until he (Don) finish his contract work for GP
18:29:22 [talli]
cool
18:29:36 [k2pts]
talli: more coming up in a minute
18:29:55 [k2pts]
rbm: here's an example
18:29:56 [talli]
k2pts: are you going to the social?
18:30:10 [rbm]
Windows can be soo amazingly lame
18:30:22 [rbm]
* rbm listens
18:30:32 [k2pts]
nope, I'm out of cash... I just started working on a new project at the university... and I'm also trying to secure a contract (OpenACS) these days
18:31:37 [k2pts]
rbm: when you check out, the ecommerce package diverts you to a check-out page (I'm not familiar with the ecommerce page-flow but for the sake of our discussion assume that the page-flow is checkout-1 checkout-2 checkout-3)
18:32:22 [k2pts]
let's that checkout-1 lets you choose a payment-gateway (a credit-card implementation or micropayment implementation)
18:32:43 [k2pts]
checkout-3 processes the transaction and redirects to the index page
18:33:37 [k2pts]
now in checkout-2 you could see which implementation the user choose (if the payment method is predefined as a package parameter it's similar)
18:34:04 [k2pts]
and include checkout-2-credit-card or checkout-2-paypal
18:34:11 [k2pts]
does that make sense?
18:34:20 [rbm]
yeah, that's about what I had in mind
18:34:44 [rbm]
I worked on this on saturday, and there was an issue I can't remember right now
18:34:48 [k2pts]
in an ideal world the service contract should have been able to specify the page flow as well
18:35:33 [k2pts]
for example, have an operation UrlMapper which returns the path to a page for a given label
18:36:28 [rbm]
that'd be cool
18:36:31 [k2pts]
then you could use the UrlMapper to get the page for (paypal, verisign, authorizenet) where the user should enter his personal info
18:36:39 [rbm]
that'd be perfect :)
18:37:16 [k2pts]
for example, urlMapper would return paypal/www/paypal-checkout-2 for the paypal implementation and /verisign/www/verisign-checkout-2 for verisign
18:37:50 [k2pts]
all these are feasible with the current service contract package... however, it depends on the original specification of the contract
18:38:04 [rbm]
the payment gateway lacks that operation
18:38:05 [k2pts]
I'm thinking of ways to extend contracts to support versioning
18:38:15 [k2pts]
rbm: yes, see versioning above
18:38:17 [rbm]
but I could implement it, since I'm already messing with all that
18:38:47 [k2pts]
it wouldn't be difficult to add the operation since this is an incremental change to the service contract
18:39:33 [k2pts]
you would have to update the implementations for verisign and authorizenet but that should be easy (just change the implementation declaration and use functions returning null)
18:40:58 [rbm]
yeah
18:41:19 [rbm]
My next worry is how to best deal with paypal's assynchronous process
18:41:33 [rbm]
asynchronous (sp?)
18:41:47 [markd2]
looks good to me
18:42:03 [rbm]
k2pts: versioning in what sense?
18:43:54 [k2pts]
versioning of the contract specifications
18:44:27 [k2pts]
so an implementation would say that it supports version 1.0 of the payment-gateway contract...
18:44:34 [k2pts]
and so on
18:44:37 [k2pts]
hey markd2
18:44:43 [rbm]
k2pts: ah, nice
18:45:35 [k2pts]
I haven't produce anything past couple of months but I have many ideas that I need to put down and start working... at some point I should stop the lookahead and make some progress
18:47:30 [rbm]
cool
18:48:44 [markd2]
yo k2pts
18:50:33 [k2pts]
hey markd2, how is it going?
18:52:08 [markd2]
going great
18:52:20 [talli]
rbm: in debian, can apt perform bash commands?
18:52:37 [markd2]
davb gave borkware a nice little facelift, so I'm not ashamed of the look of the site anymore :-)
18:52:43 [rbm]
talli: Hmm?
18:53:00 [talli]
well, one of the nice things about portage in gentoo is that it's written in bash and python
18:53:22 [rbm]
okay, and?
18:53:26 [talli]
so i imagine that an openacs ebuild (a package in gentoo) can download and build the apps but also can create the users
18:53:52 [markd2]
gentoo deetoo
18:53:52 [talli]
i'm not comparing here or starting an argument
18:54:00 [rbm]
talli: Oh, in debian that's a function of the packaging system (dpkg), not a front-end to the packaging system (apt)
18:54:02 [davb]
sure.
18:54:06 [talli]
ah, cool
18:54:24 [davb]
that should work fine. then you could create a script the generates the different syntax.
18:54:25 [talli]
we need to build packages for both of these systems
18:54:38 [rbm]
talli: You can use debconf to do all sorts of configuring of packages, including prompting the user with different, interchangeable user interfaces front-ends
18:55:02 [talli]
very nice
18:55:02 [rbm]
This Thymus story on /. is truly remarkable
18:55:09 [k2pts]
anyways, I have to head out guys, we talk soon
18:55:16 [markd2]
l8r
18:55:20 [k2pts]
k2pts has left #openacs
18:55:26 [rbm]
It's mind bogling to think what will be common place in 20 years
18:57:00 [talli]
yeah, like the children of markd2
18:57:03 [talli]
<shudder>
18:57:14 [markd2]
heh
18:57:19 [markd2]
don't worry about it
18:57:34 [markd2]
we just sell them into clown slavery
18:57:49 [talli]
you mean, THEY ARE THE FUTURE OF OUR HAPPINESS???????
18:58:06 [talli]
who will make us laugh?
18:58:29 [markd2]
dunno about you, but I find clows more frightening than funny
18:58:43 [markd2]
kinda like talli's "Happy Hamster Dance"
18:59:35 [talli]
my dance is artistic. you take from it what you need and leave the rest.
19:00:05 [markd2]
that explains the "have a hamster, leave a hamster. need a hamster, take a hamster" sign
19:00:09 [markd2]
all is clear
19:04:45 [rbm]
* rbm urinates on PDFs
19:04:50 [markd2]
heh
19:04:53 [markd2]
so, how do you really feel?
19:05:22 [rbm]
for what I'm doing now (submitting pdf form data over the web) it is sucking big time so far
19:10:37 [denshi]
hey talli, what do you know about ical acceptance in PDAs?
19:23:55 [talli]
denshi: absolutely nothing. say it again
19:24:56 [cro]
Anyone here used a Kyocera QCP-6035? The Palm/Cellphone combo?
19:25:08 [cro]
Verizon has a rebate right now...
19:25:20 [rbm]
a friend bought that phone last week
19:25:28 [cro]
Seen it?
19:25:28 [paje]
I haven't seen 'it', cro
19:25:32 [rbm]
oh, not, not the pda combo
19:25:39 [cro]
ok
19:27:04 [markd2]
doesn't docwolf have a cell/pda combo?
19:27:10 [markd2]
paje, seen docwolf?
19:27:11 [paje]
docwolf was last seen on #openacs 1 days, 23 hours, 41 minutes and 6 seconds ago, saying: anyone here have a Tivo? [Sat Jun 15 14:46:14 2002]
19:28:30 [cro]
I have a PocketPC now but don't really use all the features, and having one device would be awesome.
19:28:57 [cro]
used to have a Palm, and I really liked it....
19:29:00 [davb]
i like the new nokia model with the full (tiny) keyboard, although I don't own one :)
19:29:37 [davb]
oops, time to go. bbl
19:29:39 [davb]
davb has quit ("ChatZilla 0.8.7 [Mozilla rv:1.0.0/20020530]")
19:29:43 [talli]
davb: if you like that phone, you are a spy
19:29:52 [talli]
totally typical of spies
19:30:01 [talli]
never take responsibility
19:30:27 [markd2]
the spy who shagged carpets
19:35:01 [denshi]
hey talli, what do you know about ical acceptance in PDAs?
19:35:30 [denshi]
you did say 'say it again'
19:35:44 [talli]
denshi: HUH. absolutely nuthin.
19:37:13 [denshi]
hmm.. I wanted to run momentum pulling data from an OACS instance of calendar on a wireless hub for people to pull the local event list off of
19:37:24 [talli]
so do i
19:37:27 [rbm]
so do i
19:37:40 [talli]
i screwed up numerous appointments last week
19:37:54 [talli]
i am going to join a 12 step program
19:38:10 [denshi]
but first I need to find out what PDAs use for their calendar format
19:38:13 [talli]
the first step is to admit i am powerless in keeping a schedule
19:38:23 [talli]
steps 2 through 11 are undetermined
19:38:29 [talli]
step 12 - PROFIT!
19:38:42 [denshi]
steps 2 through 11 will be scheduled at a later date
19:38:51 [talli]
denshi: PDA's will use ical
19:38:57 [talli]
everythign will speak CAP
19:39:01 [denshi]
will? or do now?
19:39:11 [denshi]
what will they speak by 2003?
19:39:15 [talli]
world peace will be achieved through collaborative scheduling
19:39:20 [denshi]
these are not academic questions
19:39:34 [talli]
everything is expected to be CAP compliant
19:39:51 [talli]
a PDA will be a calendar user agent (CUA)
19:40:03 [talli]
this means it will speak iCal over BEEP
19:40:27 [talli]
however, to be CAP compliant CAP must exist
19:40:56 [talli]
CAP is a draft that is being developed by angry people who speak a weird language called WTF??
19:41:32 [talli]
but yes, it is safe to assume that PDAs should be able to accept, parse and output iCal
19:42:38 [talli]
this eve i am going to make a major effort to write up some more momentum stuff
19:43:05 [talli]
actually, the OpenOffice Groupware project is looking for a backend groupware toolkit to standardize on
19:43:17 [talli]
they were looking at PHPgw, but those people are completely clueless
19:43:42 [talli]
so now they don't know where to go. openacs could step in reasonably easily
19:44:04 [talli]
anyway, must go to a meeting.
19:44:05 [talli]
bbl
19:44:09 [talli]
talli has quit ("Client Exiting")
19:44:09 [denshi]
cya
19:47:48 [markd2]
chair
19:54:25 [denshi]
was that some kind of transient utterance?
19:59:25 [markd2]
"chair" in spanish is "Silla", which sounds like "see ya"
19:59:56 [denshi]
pass the bottle, brutha bork
20:03:55 [markd2]
amen!
20:04:59 [rbm]
wow, I'm getting one hit every 2-5 seconds on my personal site.
20:05:21 [markd2]
sweet!
20:05:29 [markd2]
real traffic, or internet worms?
20:05:39 [markd2]
my stats always go down when I filter out the windows worms
20:05:48 [rbm]
traffic, mostly coming from google searches
20:05:53 [markd2]
nice
20:05:56 [markd2]
what's your homepage again?
20:06:04 [rbm]
I do get quite a bit of worms though
20:06:23 [rbm]
www.brasileiro.net and I have almost nothing there, except for the postgres and jukebox stuff
20:06:47 [rbm]
I have a dream of making a decent website for me. My current one is such a shame.
20:07:08 [markd2]
I know of this great Free web application toolkit
20:07:19 [rbm]
:)
20:07:47 [rbm]
It's sitting down to write the content that is hard.
20:07:49 [rbm]
or organize it
20:08:18 [denshi]
it's all gotta be coming from the OACS4.5 release
20:08:28 [mbr]
Damn
20:08:34 [mbr]
It's expensive to print out good prints
20:08:37 [denshi]
I've got maybe 5x normal traffic coming in for mod_scheme
20:08:52 [mbr]
paje?
20:08:52 [paje]
yes, mbr?
20:08:58 [mbr]
70 * 10
20:09:09 [mbr]
you forgot math?
20:09:22 [mbr]
70 + 70 + 70 + 70
20:09:22 [paje]
280
20:09:26 [mbr]
heh
20:09:42 [mbr]
If I print out 70 pictures at the Olympus Print Station I can buy my own printer
20:09:47 [mbr]
That they use
20:17:56 [markd2]
* markd2 links to rbm's postgres pages
20:18:33 [rbm]
I should worry more about my content :)
20:19:20 [rbm]
mbr: but then there's the time, paper, err, space the printer will take, etc. :)
20:19:47 [rbm]
mbr: the cpu is in the fedex truck here in logan as of 8:49 AM today
20:30:15 [mbr]
I know
20:30:26 [mbr]
It's on the truck for delivery already
20:30:40 [mbr]
i was just going to tell you that :)
20:31:18 [rbm]
It hasn't been delivered though. My wife is at home.
20:31:58 [mbr]
:)
20:31:59 [rbm]
This brings me bad memories of when I was at my living room waiting for fedex to show up with my SLR, and they never showed up. But in their logs they said that I wasn't home.
20:32:09 [mbr]
lol
20:32:22 [mbr]
you can always go to the FedEx location where they return to and pick it up
20:32:28 [rbm]
I was so mad at them
20:32:39 [markd2]
a friend of mine has had lots of problems with UPS like that
20:32:56 [rbm]
mbr: they close early, and I have no way of getting their phone number, except by physically going there
20:33:08 [cro]
We've had UPS return packages as undeliverable, saying "There's no office at the address you gave us", when in fact we'd been gettting packages at that address for 3 years.
20:33:11 [rbm]
UPS is pretty nice here. The delivery guy is cool.
20:35:09 [mbr]
Well, if you ask me...I hate ups
20:35:18 [mbr]
Those inefficient fucks
20:35:29 [mbr]
It takes them a century to go from california to ny
20:36:00 [mbr]
infact, rbm, it would probably take them until this friday to get the package into Utah
20:36:53 [mbr]
and technically FedEx doesn't even have to deliver it until thursday by 4:30pm (FedEx Express Saver is 3-4 business days)
20:37:07 [rbm]
mbr: I'm not complaining about the time.
20:37:13 [mbr]
Today is the start of the first business day and it's being delivered...now if that's not efficient I don't know what is :)
20:37:16 [mbr]
UPS sucks
20:37:36 [mbr]
You can tell your UPS friend i said that
20:37:36 [mbr]
;)
20:40:05 [mbr]
Damn it!
20:40:10 [mbr]
This is the 2nd time my box crashed
20:40:17 [mbr]
Without letting me save my work
20:40:37 [mbr]
hmm
20:40:41 [mbr]
what time is it by you Roberto?
20:40:45 [rbm]
3:39 PM
20:40:49 [mbr]
k
20:41:02 [mbr]
They got 50 minutes to deliver it ;)
20:43:45 [rbm]
oh, they stop delivering at 4:30?
20:44:06 [mbr]
yep
20:44:17 [mbr]
well, not sure
20:44:40 [rbm]
so what time does their office close, and cna I go pick it up after the truck returns?
20:44:42 [mbr]
but I'm assuming if they guarantee delivery by 4:30 they probably don't deliver many more packages after 4:30
20:45:24 [mbr]
lol, I don't know what time the FedEx office by your house closes...Mine closes at 7 and I was usually successful at picking stuff up 45-30 min prior their closing
20:45:44 [rbm]
ah, our office here suck then. It closes a lot eariler
20:45:46 [rbm]
brb
21:12:37 [bduell]
bduell has left #openacs
21:37:59 [cro]
cro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:56:54 [denshi]
oom, page
21:56:56 [denshi]
oom, paje
21:56:56 [paje]
denshi: sorry...
21:57:03 [denshi]
ooom, paje?
21:57:04 [paje]
denshi: excuse me?
21:57:08 [denshi]
moo, paje
21:57:08 [paje]
moo denshi, glad to see you back!
22:01:46 [markd2]
moo, paje
22:01:46 [paje]
moo markd2, glad to see you back!
22:01:59 [markd2]
paje, again!
22:01:59 [paje]
* paje spanks talli
22:02:28 [denshi]
paje, attack!
22:02:28 [paje]
* paje bites Mark's ankle
22:02:43 [denshi]
paje, forget attack
22:02:43 [paje]
denshi: I forgot attack
22:03:03 [denshi]
paje, attack is | <action> dons lederhosen and bites markd2's ankle
22:03:03 [paje]
OK, denshi.
22:03:05 [denshi]
paje, attack!
22:03:05 [paje]
* paje bites Mark's ankle
22:03:11 [denshi]
damn!
22:03:19 [denshi]
paje, attack
22:03:19 [paje]
* paje dons lederhosen and bites markd2's ankle
22:03:24 [denshi]
paje, forget attack!
22:03:25 [paje]
denshi: I forgot attack
22:03:29 [denshi]
paje, attack!
22:03:29 [paje]
* paje bites Mark's ankle
22:03:39 [denshi]
damndamn!
22:06:23 [mbr]
* mbr bites paje
22:06:27 [mbr]
paje seen rbm
22:06:27 [paje]
rbm was last seen on #openacs 1 hours, 20 minutes and 40 seconds ago, saying: brb [Mon Jun 17 15:45:56 2002]
22:07:36 [denshi]
anyone know what paje is written in?
22:07:48 [denshi]
paje, what are you written in?
22:07:48 [paje]
i haven't a clue, denshi
22:08:05 [denshi]
paje, don't you get all Turing Test-ing on me
22:08:05 [paje]
denshi: sorry...
22:08:58 [markd2]
perl
22:09:05 [markd2]
paje, infobot?
22:09:05 [paje]
infobot is at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~infobot
22:20:31 [denshi]
paje, can I just hand you a block of perl to be eval'ed?
22:20:32 [paje]
no idea, denshi
22:57:30 [mbr]
roberto?
22:57:30 [paje]
i think roberto is splurging on a digicam :)
22:57:48 [markd2]
sounds kinky
23:19:20 [mbr]
lol
23:19:29 [mbr]
R.MELLO signed for the FedEx package
23:45:57 [talli]
talli (~chatzilla@pool-162-83-234-57.ny5030.east.verizon.net) has joined #openacs
23:46:06 [mbr]
paje, again!
23:46:06 [paje]
* paje spanks talli
23:46:07 [denshi]
talli!
23:46:29 [talli]
hey
23:46:33 [talli]
what's up?
23:47:26 [denshi]
telling p. graham to hurry up
23:47:40 [talli]
haha
23:47:42 [talli]
where?
23:47:46 [denshi]
& working on that calendar-for-events thing
23:48:02 [denshi]
oh, I just sent him an email with a new parser idea
23:50:08 [talli]
cool
23:50:16 [talli]
do you think arc will be the "next big thing"?
23:50:33 [denshi]
it has a good chance
23:51:07 [markd2]
it's the arc of the convent
23:51:27 [denshi]
b/c he's trying hard to stand on the line between 'interfacing with Unix' and 'adherence to academic purity'
23:53:39 [talli]
so it's a unix only language?
23:54:06 [denshi]
oh, some piker will port it to win32 eventually
23:54:42 [denshi]
but even so, win32 is much more like unix than some of the OSes available back when Common LISP was being standardized
23:54:53 [denshi]
so it's much more platform neutral than necessary