01:00:51 talli has quit (Remote closed the connection) 02:08:52 talli (~talli@pool-162-83-234-57.ny5030.east.verizon.net) has joined #openacs 02:27:56 paje, run! 02:27:56 * paje runs for his dear life 02:28:04 paje again! 02:28:05 * paje spanks talli 02:44:32 i'm installing netbsd 02:45:01 in the past week, i have gone from gentoo, to debian, to mandrake, to debian, to redhat, to debian and now netbsd 02:45:14 debian has been the easiest to use and maintain, but i like the ports system 02:45:23 and my friend has brainwashed me with netbsd propoganda 02:45:28 so i'm going to try it out 02:45:41 either way, i am learning a whole lot more about unix than i probably should 02:49:57 docwolf (~wolf@adsl-32-221-35.bct.bellsouth.net) has joined #openacs 02:51:33 go away! go away! 02:52:02 muahahaha 02:52:48 nostalgia, eh? 02:55:06 hmm 02:55:10 looks like the red wings won 02:58:21 is that good or bad? 02:58:30 good for detroit. 02:58:37 the city is such a hole, the people deserve something 02:59:14 detroit is third-world, without the international charm. 03:03:16 the red wings are like the yankees of hockey 03:03:19 it's totally rigged 03:03:25 i didn't much like the sport before 03:03:36 with that crap, i certainly don't care abou tit 03:03:38 dude.. it's epic mullet mania 03:03:49 i don't like baseball becuase of the yankees either 03:06:22 i'm not fond of baseball any more either. 03:06:29 mainly b/c of the spoiled players. 03:06:45 and mike piazza's facial hair is disturbing. 03:14:23 davb: you around? 04:17:02 hello all 05:43:50 anyone awake? 06:29:48 barely 06:46:05 paje, get hazmat some coffee 06:46:05 denshi: what? 06:46:10 paje, get hazmat some coffee dammit! 06:46:11 denshi: excuse me? 06:50:19 http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992403 06:50:19 A: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992403 from denshi 06:50:36 A|: Honeybees double coffee yields 06:50:43 A:| Honeybees double coffee yields 06:50:43 titled item A 06:51:04 A: bees => coffee; coffee => honey 06:51:04 added comment A1 07:17:46 good stuff 10:48:57 davb has quit ("Client Exiting") 11:39:52 davb (~chatzilla@rrcs-nys-24-97-22-204.biz.rr.com) has joined #openacs 11:40:01 hi there 12:04:13 bduell (~bduell@gowron.nca.asu.edu) has joined #openacs 12:04:37 hello all 12:16:50 good morning 12:57:33 morning 12:59:12 oom 12:59:18 hi denshi and markd2phylax 13:17:49 markd2phylax is now known as WOrkiephylax 13:17:59 WOrkiephylax is now known as Wookiephylax 13:18:43 morning 13:18:56 yes, yes it is 13:20:58 cd 13:21:02 Heh... 13:22:40 * Wookiephylax cds into /bin 13:22:50 mkdir bath 13:22:56 cd /bath 13:32:39 bduell has quit ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com)") 13:39:39 denshi: did you see paul graham's latest article? 13:40:09 it should sit on the front page of the oacs website 13:40:45 let me get my coding pants on 13:41:32 revenge of the nerds? 13:42:08 yeah 13:42:11 revenge of the nerds 13:42:14 http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html 13:42:14 B: http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html from denshi 13:42:31 B:| Revenge of the Nerds 13:42:31 titled item B 13:42:48 B: So here we have two pieces of information that I think are very valuable. In fact, I know it from my own experience. Number 1, languages vary in power. Number 2, most managers deliberately ignore this. Between them, these two facts are literally a recipe for making money. 13:42:48 added comment B1 13:43:25 b: warning: he craps on all languages not lisp, especially python 13:43:44 but it's great 13:44:43 I admire that he wrote 2 of the 5 LISP texts that every LISPer has, and after working on it for years and years say "okay, it still sucks" 13:45:39 someone on comp.lang.lisp was joking that one of the LISP vendors should adopt the slogan: "Use Lisp! It sucks less!" 13:46:45 hi talli 13:48:36 hey davb 13:48:47 denshi: is a macro equivalent to a library or a class? 13:49:30 neither 13:49:42 a macro is a source translator 13:49:48 ?? 13:50:35 you can do things like write the "for" statement in a macro that translates the "for" statement into some ifs and progns 13:50:44 ah, very cool 13:50:55 in non-sexp languages, you have to rewrite the compiler to do that 13:51:07 so you can rewrite the language according to your needs 13:51:08 that's nice 13:51:32 although what is so different between that and a class? 13:51:39 apparently most LISPers use it to write a domain specific language for the project they're working on, then write in that 13:51:52 how can you do that with a class? 13:51:59 very different concepts 13:52:01 isn't that roughly passing it to a class with a collection of ifs and whiles etc 13:52:04 ? 13:52:13 no 13:52:36 but I have trouble seeing where you're coming from and I'm not sure I can explain it today 13:52:53 something you *can* analogize to is Tcl's upvar 13:53:28 since you can write a macro that write into the calling context/scope, you can introduce variable there 13:53:52 which you can't do in a function, b/c a function call introduces new scope 13:54:12 unless you've got a hackish runtime like Tcl, and can call upvar 13:59:06 oom 13:59:29 ppn 14:01:40 so sleepy 14:03:01 wow. the netbsd irc room is a bunch of grumpy fucker 14:03:11 fuckers, that is, for you keeping score at home 14:03:15 dude, they're all sexually frustrated. 14:03:49 talk about unhip, "hi baby, yeah, i work on software.. No, it's not Linux, it's sort of like linux, but less popular.. umm..." 14:04:15 :) 14:05:25 docwolf: nice article on Walmart shipping computers with Lindows 14:05:41 haha. thanks.. i'm surprised newsforge took my submission. 14:05:41 there's a good chance i will be banned from the netbsd room soon 14:06:03 roblimo usually ignores me. 14:06:48 is this one conversation or two? 14:07:03 docwolf: i don't ignore you! 14:07:06 i just pity you 14:07:20 docwolf: It's really interesting. I'd like to see if LindowsOS lives up to its promises. 14:07:24 can one download it? 14:07:47 talli: pity me? i'm living large! (cut to scene of docwolf tying noose around neck) 14:08:43 * denshi writes a funereal dirge for the dead coderz 14:08:49 paje, dance! 14:08:49 * paje shakes his booties 14:11:08 where's the docwolf article? 14:12:10 talli: quote from the .jp trans of graham' paper: ênh“Lc_ 14:12:20 http://newsforge.com/newsforge/02/06/14/1316203.shtml?tid=23 14:12:20 C: http://newsforge.com/newsforge/02/06/14/1316203.shtml?tid=23 from rbm 14:12:47 adam is now going by tina? 14:12:51 C:|Wal-Mart selling ultra-cheap PCs with LindowsOS pre-installed (submitted to newsforge by our own docwolf) 14:12:52 titled item C 14:12:57 brb 14:13:15 tina.. hmm... i guess i could... 14:13:27 no, i submitted the story to tina this morning. i didn't think she'd take it 14:13:30 roblimo denied me. 14:13:37 (over at slashdot..) 14:14:46 slashdot is busy fighting a tiny war with the trolls; they can't take news! 14:16:07 i have this mental image of slashdot administration policy being set at a table with a couple of cloth maps and several 20-sided dice 14:16:46 heh 14:17:38 haha 14:18:07 slashdot has many Anal Shades 14:18:20 oh my 14:20:10 http://www.skippingdot.net/2002/06/13 14:20:11 D: http://www.skippingdot.net/2002/06/13 from davb 14:20:21 D:|RSS Autogeneration Week 14:20:22 titled item D 14:20:40 it's this week!?!? 14:20:42 D: using RSS to fling information aboiut, it's not just for news anymore 14:20:42 added comment D1 14:20:45 damn!?!?! 14:21:07 anyway its a cool idea. 14:21:33 i must have totally missed that announcement since i was so busy pouring over the perl6 apocolypses 14:21:48 do these people have families? 14:21:52 do they have friends? 14:21:54 taking information from all over an organization, and outputting it in RSS. then give everyone an rss reader (or a web-based, openacs one) and information magically appears on their desk. 14:22:14 do they have at least imaginary aliens they can communicate with? 14:22:19 the cool part is saving it and letting people search it. luckily penacs uses a database and has fancy full text search 14:22:30 talli: the last one 14:22:59 wow 14:23:00 yeah, i bet they communicate with the aliens via RSS and RDF. but telekinnetically 14:23:04 D: " Basically, though, we've put a scheduling engine and a SQL query interface together to allow users -- IT users, analysts, not the end-user / reader -- to write and schedule SQL queries on any ODBC datasource in the enterprise." 14:23:04 added comment D2 14:28:21 abbaJ (~jabba@adsl-64-217-72-95.dsl.austtx.swbell.net) has joined #openacs 14:31:27 markd2 (~markd2@h166-102-041-117.ip.alltel.net) has joined #openacs 14:32:13 * Wookiephylax backs up this machine 14:32:19 ambabrakdj2! 14:32:50 is there any good writing on why the openacs "unified" data model is better than a huge mass of unrealted perl scripts or something? 14:33:04 I "know" its better, but I was curious how to explain it to a normal human :) 14:33:14 i think playboy had an expose on it a couple of months ago 14:33:16 hi markd2 14:33:19 or perhaps it was vanity fair 14:33:24 I know I've scribbled out things on that topic before 14:33:26 talli: un, thanks 14:33:37 i think dominic dunne wrote it 14:33:54 maybe I could try to find all that and pull it together into something authoritative 14:34:14 ask gore vidal. he might help 14:34:29 " OpenACS is an amazingly well thought-out application server for collaborative web apps. Out of the box, it has modules for ecommerce, bulletin boards, calendars, content management, and many more. For what's not *in* the box, extension is easy because of the very well designed database schema. By tying a new application to core relations such as acs_objects or users, you can get permissions, subsites, and auditing for free. Big wins on both 14:34:54 hello 14:34:54 hey, markd2 14:35:08 at elast not out of the box 14:35:08 talli! 14:35:13 try focusing on things you get for free, by referencing relations that are a part of the more general workflow 14:35:26 cool. 14:35:32 * markd2 thinks out of the box 14:35:50 * denshi cuts a glory hole in markd2's box 14:35:51 talli is cold and afraid in the box 14:36:00 A 14:36:02 A: 14:36:02 http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992403 14:36:03 Honeybees double coffee yields 14:36:04 (1:denshi) bees => coffee; coffee => honey 14:36:22 * denshi goes to get some coffee 14:41:23 thanks denshi 14:41:31 thanks honey 14:41:37 * markd2 thanks honey 14:44:19 hey, what's the deal? 14:44:24 that loser taco rejects my story 14:44:26 and runs it anyway. 14:44:56 'cause he's l4m3 14:48:22 http://features.slashdot.org/features/02/06/14/1343223.shtml?tid=166 14:48:22 E: http://features.slashdot.org/features/02/06/14/1343223.shtml?tid=166 from davb 14:48:39 E:|AntiVirus companies manufacture fear 14:48:39 titled item E 14:51:33 talli: check this out http://doc.weblogs.com/2002/06/14#jabberingContd 14:51:51 jabber guy talking about using jabber for xcal notifications, you may already know this :) 14:52:00 yeah, i've heard about that 14:52:18 xcal is a bit controversial because the ical folks have removed it from the spec 14:52:32 so everyone that wants to use xcal sort of has to make up their own 14:53:29 ick 14:56:42 yeah, but there is a basic xcal definition, so it's not that bad 14:56:55 but maybe i;m thinking abotu CAP which has rejected xcal 15:06:27 docwolf: he's beyond lame 15:12:26 docwolf: the wal-mart story is on top of /. now 15:12:39 i saw 15:12:55 "commander taco, you've made a powerful enemy today" 15:12:57 :-) 15:13:09 http://radio.weblogs.com/0100789/2002/06/09.html#a157 15:13:09 F: http://radio.weblogs.com/0100789/2002/06/09.html#a157 from davb 15:13:10 slashdot is also crashing right now 15:13:10 okay, denshi. 15:13:14 F:|Death to blogs 15:13:14 titled item F 15:13:25 behold the power of mysql 15:14:36 http://radio.weblogs.com/0100887/2002/06/13.html#a300 15:14:36 G: http://radio.weblogs.com/0100887/2002/06/13.html#a300 from davb 15:14:57 G:|Jon Udell: Extreme design versus extreme programming 15:14:57 titled item G 15:16:13 F: "We might be better of by talking about dynamic Web publishing, personal content management, etc. and explore these technologies in various kind of ways." 15:16:13 added comment F1 15:16:40 http://www.usq.edu.au/electpub/e-jist/docs/html2002/chtu_frame.html 15:16:40 H: http://www.usq.edu.au/electpub/e-jist/docs/html2002/chtu_frame.html from davb 15:16:46 H:|Online Learning Community 15:16:46 titled item H 15:20:26 denshi has quit () 15:21:42 denshi (~chatzilla@cs6625176-26.austin.rr.com) has joined #openacs 15:29:12 http://www.truerwords.net/2186 15:29:12 I: http://www.truerwords.net/2186 from davb 15:29:32 I:"A true real power behind Conversant is it's abilty to operate in several different modes. Mailing list, newsgroup, web browser, XML newsfeeds, all of these modes allow people to interoperate without regard to their tool of choice. " 15:29:32 added comment I1 15:29:40 I: openacs needs this type of power 15:29:41 added comment I2 15:33:29 uhm, openacs needs to work first 15:33:48 the plugin modules will be the *least* important part of the project 15:34:01 building an infrastructure in the core that can manage all that stuff is a good idea 15:34:22 but building tools around it that do it "out of the box" isn't as importna 15:34:25 important 15:35:46 talli: what do you mean by it needs to work? what infrastructure is missing? 15:36:24 it still sucks, to be honest. 15:36:29 heh 15:36:40 what currently exists is what was inherited from aD 15:36:44 which is not so hot 15:36:45 true. 15:36:54 it just works on pg and oracle now 15:36:56 which is nice 15:37:02 ok, good points. 15:37:06 but the core needs a lot of design cleaning 15:37:33 you are right. we need a roadmap of where the core will go. the release is all but done. don just needs to actually do it. so where do we go now? 15:37:39 adn i think if people become obsessed with making out of the box solutions, the app will never get done 15:37:46 true. 15:38:04 the community should focus on building a hardcore and sweet core that people can build on top of 15:38:12 I am willing to jump in and improve the core. I like denshi's idea of defining the basic opeartions that we need. 15:38:26 hmmm. 15:38:33 we need an OpenACS 5 design bboard :) 15:38:38 true enough 15:38:39 wait, I wasn't listening. is there a bagel involved? 15:38:45 nope 15:38:49 damn 15:39:21 if denshi tells me what stuff he things is absolutely necessary in the openacs core, and what can do, i will eat a bagel. 15:39:26 hows that? 15:39:37 maybe we should move this to the bboard. 15:39:38 * denshi kicks davb 15:39:46 or we could just have a secret meeting. 15:39:50 are our ideas even vaguely well-formed yet? 15:39:54 okay, i'll fedex you a bagel. 15:39:56 not mine. 15:40:02 i've got a good idea for a new pizza 15:40:07 i might have it for lunch 15:40:12 it's vaguely well formed 15:40:14 that is, my ideas are not formed yet. 15:40:35 where are all the hackers? 15:41:04 chopping wood? 15:41:19 talli: is it round? 15:41:55 like a sphere] 15:42:04 hollow or solid? 15:42:16 how can you bake a spherical pizza? 15:42:16 or is that in you stomach after you eat it? 15:43:12 good point, the crust has to be in contact with the heat source. 15:43:57 bduell (~bduell@gowron.nca.asu.edu) has joined #openacs 15:44:17 denshi: perhaps posting to the bboard would encourage other people to think about this stuff too, so we don't have to do all the work. 15:44:31 davb: do you have specific points yet? 15:44:36 no, none at all :) 15:44:49 it would be good to provide something to accrete discussion around 15:44:50 just tallis vauge notion that it needs work. 15:45:11 basically I am just doing this to avoid working 15:45:39 ha! 15:45:50 shit 15:46:05 i have a crashing application in winxp and i can't get the task manager to show any tasks. 15:46:25 PULL THE PLUG 15:46:26 got it 15:46:56 here's my quote for the day 15:47:11 i just spoke to my teacher, he said i should try and stay off the lambda functions 15:47:18 heh 15:47:20 punch him and steal his lunch money 15:47:36 even better 15:47:47 that convo is happening now. I think he's working on the punching part 15:48:27 davb has changed the topic to: OpenACS: Free Web Application Toolkit 15:49:20 denshi has changed the topic to: "OpenACS: Less Popular Than Jesus" 15:49:26 oh good 15:49:33 what are we more popular than? 15:49:41 ebola, maybe? 15:50:20 denshi has changed the topic to: "OpenACS: Less Popular Than Jesus. what are we more popular than? ebola, maybe?" 15:50:23 curse you mardk2, I am getting hundreds of searchs for domokun and kittens now. 15:50:28 denshi nooooo! 15:50:30 no <> in the title 15:50:34 topic i mean 15:50:40 why not? 15:51:27 denshi has changed the topic to: "OpenACS: Less Popular Than Jesus" 15:51:29 the XSLT barfs on them 15:51:34 :) 15:51:43 I am asking aaronsw about that problem. 15:52:18 sorry about that 15:54:12 no problem. If I wasn't lazy, i would debug it 15:54:43 somewhere in the XSLT the <s are turned into real <> and there is not closing tag 15:55:05 * markd2 is a closet tag 15:55:08 it only happens when it rolls the day I think. then it grabs the topic to title the page. 15:55:48 the swhack weblog works ok: http://blogspace.com/swhack/weblog/2002/05/24/ 15:56:38 ok, i'll debug it, its better than working 16:00:29 What's a quick and painless way to configure a printer in Linux? 16:00:31 davb: i want to hear your oacs5 ideas 16:00:38 Do they have some sort of a graphical tool for this? 16:00:41 denshi: as soon as I have some :) 16:01:04 Wookiephylax: some linuxes have a graphical tool. i don't know of a generic one. 16:01:16 xslt: an even more brain dead lisp than tcl 16:01:50 davb: drink more coffee. 16:02:13 to generate the ideas? 16:02:14 for the ideas 16:02:38 ok 16:03:48 argh 16:04:13 davb has changed the topic to: OpenACS: Less Popular Than Jesus. what are we more popular than? ebola, maybe? 16:04:23 ok, now to debug 16:05:52 talli has quit (Remote closed the connection) 16:09:24 I wonder if talli was referring to weaknesses in the default admin UI, or in the core tcl and pl/[pg]sql apis 16:09:50 hmm 16:09:55 weird the xslt worked this time. 16:10:10 i wonder when it broke last time was in the topic 16:10:57 actually i think it was the rebuilding of the index to the archived pages that broke. 16:11:15 oh, well, worst case, i fix it tomorrow :) 16:12:00 ok OpenACS 5 ideas. look at every package that is allegedy part of openacs-core and see if it really needs to be in there. 16:12:20 make sure every package and tcl proc produces valid XHTML 16:12:42 make sure every core package uses tempalting and the form builder consistently 16:12:53 BTW don's new ad_form is really cool. 16:13:24 this is all "cosmetic" stuff. it needs to be done, but doesn't affect the core datamodels and apis. 16:15:03 possibly simplify the parties/persons/etc model and the permissions model 16:16:34 davb: You should write these down in a more permanent way then the chat logs, then point us to a URL so we can discuss and add back :) 16:17:46 I am just whipping stuff out right now. later I'll write it coherently 16:17:56 These are all great ideas. 16:18:03 I'd be even up to implementing some of this. 16:20:21 Crap, everything in the ecommerce package is hard-wired for credit card payments 16:23:33 yes. I ripped out large hunks of it when I tried to do paypal in openacs 3.x 16:24:00 137,138,139, and I think you need both. Try only UDP first. If it doesn't work, allowsn TCP as well 16:24:04 ooops 16:24:18 here is a good thread: 16:24:20 http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0004OP&topic_id=OpenACS%204%2e0%20Design&topic=12 16:24:20 J: http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0004OP&topic_id=OpenACS%204%2e0%20Design&topic=12 from davb 16:24:40 J: Lars Pind: And while we're at it, I also agree with him that the content repository is created upside down. What we really need from the content repository is a central place to store title, description, and other generic info that you need for site-wide search or a "what's new" page. Instead of the kludgy acs_object.name() function, which has to do dynamic SQL to figure out something as banal as the name of an object. 16:24:40 added comment J1 16:25:12 J:|OpenACS.org bboard thread discussing the acs-object model in OpenACS 4 16:25:12 titled item J 16:32:07 talli (~chatzilla@pool-162-83-234-57.ny5030.east.verizon.net) has joined #openacs 16:32:14 ah there he is 16:32:23 denshi: did you read that paul graham article? 16:32:32 oh yes 16:32:39 it's good, isn't it? 16:32:45 indeed 16:32:46 talli: are you dissatisfied with the stop openacs admin interface, or the core tcl and pl/[pg]sql apis? 16:32:54 talli where have you been? 16:33:10 we discussed this already :) 16:33:13 i don't know anything about the core tcl and pgplsql apis 16:33:20 i friggin hate the admin interface 16:33:23 it's pathetic 16:33:26 ok. true 16:33:28 100% 16:33:34 as luke said, the guy who built that interface should be strung up 16:33:38 but generally "easy" to fix if we can get someone to do it. 16:33:52 but we need a good idea of how we want to to work. 16:34:02 I say we take up a collection and hire lars to do it. :) 16:34:19 I had a good idea. 16:34:27 i think lars is working on some docs for standard UI development 16:34:30 the admin interface should be another package 16:34:47